[00:00:00] Hazel: Hi there, I'm Hazel Showell, and I'm here to guide you through the toughest transitions in life, business, and even love. I'm a business psychologist, and I've spent 30 years coaching CEOs and founders to navigate the messy stuff of life. From selling a business, the loss of something or someone important, to repairing relationships and restoring confidence.

[00:00:29] Hazel: Welcome to [00:00:30] Endings.

[00:00:31] Philip: Well, I turned my attention to trying to find something to compete in that would test me.

[00:00:36] Hazel: In this episode, I'm speaking to Philip Dyer. Philip is a highly experienced business mentor and coach, and provides guidance to business owners on being healthy leaders in particular. In 1977, Philip was the British karate champion and since then he's never lost his competitive edge and he still prioritizes his physical wellness.[00:01:00]

[00:01:00] Philip: The mission which I set out 20, 25 years ago which is to die as fit as possible.

[00:01:04] Hazel: Through this Philip learned the values from karate that he still carries. with him to this day. We'll come back to that later. First, let's go back to the beginning.

[00:01:20] Hazel: When Philip was 13, he was getting bullied at school, so his father thought it would be a good idea to get Philip some karate lessons. Initially, it [00:01:30] really wasn't something that Philip would look forward to, and he didn't enjoy it at first. But he felt like he didn't have a choice in going.

[00:01:37] Philip: My father was present, so he would actually come along to make sure I was there.

[00:01:42] Philip: And he actually practiced in the class with me to make sure I wasn't nicking off and hiding from the class, from the teacher. So that lasted for about, I think, memory serves, about six months. After I did my first grading, and I did well in my first [00:02:00] grading, I thought, I'm quite good at this.

[00:02:02] Hazel: Philip was so good, in fact, that he quickly began to excel and found his competitive streak.

[00:02:09] Philip: Probably the reason why I was getting more and more pleasure from it was because I was excelling. I didn't particularly excel at anything at school. So I didn't do well academically, but out of school, karate was really working for me and I was just getting better. By the time I was about 15, I was in a competition.

[00:02:29] Philip: I think it was my [00:02:30] second competition. I actually came third. And it was against adults as well as juniors that I was, that I was competing against. And I just thought, this is for me, I just love the competition. I dreamt karate, I did karate, practiced karate, thought about karate, just lived for karate really. And school was an inconvenience.

[00:02:51] Hazel: The more Philip excelled at karate. And the more he enjoyed it, the more competitive he got. And soon, it was time to [00:03:00] enter national competitions.

[00:03:02] Philip: The first time that I won the Junior British Championship, I was 17. It's not a good combination being 17 and very good at a martial art, because I was arrogant as well.

[00:03:16] Philip: It definitely came with the turf. And I was at an age where I thought it was unstoppable.

[00:03:21] Hazel: Finally, a moment came when Philip decided to leave karate. It started a business and had a family. But then something else [00:03:30] happened that told him it was time.

[00:03:32] Philip: I remember it distinctly. I was about 37. I was sitting down and as I stood up, I lost my footing and my left leg gave way. And I can remember just thinking that that was my hip that caused the trouble. And several of my peers had. complained about hip issues at the time. And I just thought, I'm just 37, too young to be having problems with my hip. And it could only be down [00:04:00] to doing the karate cause that was the thing that I did the most.

[00:04:03] Philip: And so I, I made a, a conscious decision to actually, a, a word that I try and avoid, retire from Karate

[00:04:12] Hazel: at 37.

[00:04:14] Philip: At 37, yeah. And, uh, rather than continuing to do it and caused myself some damage, but I, I gave myself three years. So I thought by the time I get to 40, I'll have stopped doing karate. And, um, most of the people around me that [00:04:30] knew me very well said, it's not gonna happen.

[00:04:32] Philip: You know, they've been doing it 25 years, but I was resolute that health. And your personal well being precede all of those desires to start staying doing football with damaged knees. I don't understand why anybody would do that when they're causing problems. So by the time I got to 40, I stopped. It wasn't comfortable.

[00:04:56] Hazel: I was going to say, how did that go down?

[00:04:58] Philip: It wasn't, it wasn't comfortable. [00:05:00] I was in a state of acceptance that it was going to happen. And. Moved on in a very logical way, but there are times when I missed, I taught at Lancaster University for 20 years at the Karate Club bit at Lancaster, and I loved it. I loved teaching, but I think there's a few things worse from a martial arts perspective as someone that doesn't practice it, teaching it.

[00:05:24] Philip: You know, I couldn't continue to teach if I wasn't actually practicing the art itself. So I had to let go [00:05:30] of everything. So the teaching, the practice, and uh, what I turned my attention to trying to find something to compete in that would test me and struggled like hell. I sort of stumbled into this rather than trying to fill a void.

[00:05:47] Philip: It was to start something anew. You don't want to be trying to fill, backfill something that was unique in itself. I needed to do something that was completely different to what I was doing. So it [00:06:00] was a new start.

[00:06:01] Hazel: So how did you go about that?

[00:06:04] Philip: Um, badly , I'd like to say I have a, I'd like to say I had a, a master plan. There's a, a local leisure center close to where I lived. They were having a, an event, it was just a sim simple process of running 200 meters, two minutes rest, and then you had to get on a bike and do 5K on a static bike. [00:06:30] And then two minutes rest, then onto a rowing, indoor rowing machine, 1,500 meters, two minutes rest. And then, uh, assault course, two minute rest into a pool, 50 meters. And that was it. And I just thought, I'm going to, I'm going to, well, compared to a triathlete, that's really lightweight, but I've decided this is what I'm going to do. And I managed to achieve a position in the bottom 10%.

[00:06:59] Hazel: Ooh, ego [00:07:00] kick.

[00:07:02] Philip: Well, the running was. never been my strong point. I'm not fast. I was, I struggled with speed when I did karate. So it was never going to work very well on a run, running on a, on a pitch, but, uh, didn't do well with the run. Bike. Okay. No, I've got good legs, strong legs, uh, good lungs. On the rower. Okay. And then assualt course, and then swimming. I swim like a brick. Uh, so I'm actually negatively buoyant. I do sink. I [00:07:30] took, took swimming lessons and tried to improve. What I wanted to do is try to get in the middle of the pack. And then the second attempt, I managed to get into the bottom 10 percent again.

[00:07:41] Hazel: I love the aim for average on this.

[00:07:46] Philip: It was, it was almost hilarious. But while I was practicing on the rower, a guy came over to me, who was a water rower and said. Your technique's not bad. Try these pointers. So he gave me a few pointers [00:08:00] and then it opened up a whole world. I thought what I'm going to do is compete. I'm going to try and win the rowing bit of the competition because there's a trophy for each event and then an overall trophy.

[00:08:11] Philip: And so I came home and I said to my wife, I'm going to, I'm going to go for it. I'm going to go for the, the, the rowing bit. And I did and I won it.. And so rowing started to dominate my life.

[00:08:24] Hazel: Oh, this sounds familiar. It's like from a completely accidental start.

[00:08:29] Philip: [00:08:30] Exactly, exactly it. Well, I think the humorous bit is it's, it's serendipity. So I was, I was on a rower a bit and I'd never used one before. Then an actual rower, somebody that was accustomed to water rowing, saw me rowing and said, Try this. And then a guy who became my coach and close friend and mentor, his name's Tony Bithell. Tony was brilliant. He came up to me in the competition and said, well done on winning. Have you ever thought of entering a Concept2 2K race? [00:09:00] What's Concept2? That's the machine I was on. And what's the race? He said, oh, there's races all over the world. It's an international sport. And that was, That was just like, open the floodgates.

[00:09:13] Hazel: I can compete again.

[00:09:14] Philip: Exactly. And 20 years I did, virtually 20 years

[00:09:20] Hazel: Just incredible. I love the fact that it seems you're totally okay to just see what emerges. I happen to be rowing for 20 years. And are you still [00:09:30] rowing?

[00:09:31] Philip: I still use the rower. I, I Let's do that again. I retired from competitive indoor rowing.. When, when I turned 60 because, and the primary reason is 'cause it's so hard.

[00:09:44] Philip: I usually use other expletives, , but it's very, but it, it's, it's, it's, it's so hard. Yeah. Very. It's very hard to do, to do a 2km race

[00:09:54] Hazel: So you, this time when you just set yourself, 'cause it sounds like there's an age [00:10:00] target. The first time with karate, because that was. 40. So when you decided by 60, we're going to stop rowing. How did that feel compared to the first time?

[00:10:11] Philip: Um, totally different in the sense that, uh, I feel that karate was a philosophy. Uh, I read about karate. I got really deep into it as a teenager, but it provided me with a springboard, which has informed pretty much most of my [00:10:30] life. the philosophy of focus, commitment, integrity, respect, and those are all the things that you should have for yourself have all really have their roots for me in karate and they continue to inform my behavior as an adult, as a parent, as a husband.

[00:10:49] Philip: It's really important to understand what defines your values in life. Rowing satisfied an aspect of my [00:11:00] character, which is the competitiveness and the desire to keep fit. But karate was a completely different thing and continues to be so. So even though I don't do karate, I think of karate and martial arts and discipline and respect. All of those things are still wrapped around the values which I live my daily life by.

[00:11:22] Hazel: So that's something that didn't end. So when you decided to finally stop rowing, How did you feed the competitive [00:11:30] beast within then?

[00:11:33] Philip: Well, I had something waiting in the wings.

[00:11:37] Hazel: Oh did you now? And what was that?

[00:11:40] Philip: That's archery.

Hazel: Okay, how come archery?

Philip: I did some archery when I was about 18 and I always enjoy, I enjoyed the experience and I thought I'd love to do that. And then about 25 years ago, I did a course. It was like a six week course and I absolutely loved it. [00:12:00] But I thought I'm doing rowing, I'm doing karate, all that sort of stuff. I don't have time to commit to it, but I'll come to it when I get older. when I've got the space. And so I started, I started learning how to do archery properly after I'd finished with the drawing.

[00:12:17] Hazel: I love that most people might turn to like, you know, cryptic crosswords and when, when I hit 60, I'll do some crosswords not, Oh, when I'm sick, I'll do some archery.

[00:12:29] Hazel: So [00:12:30]

[00:12:30] Philip: the beauty is. You can always improve physically as you get older. So there's things that you can't do. Like if you could run a hundred meters in ten seconds, which is absolutely brilliant, you might run a hundred meters slower, but you can still run a hundred meters. You can improve. If you have an injury, you can adapt and do something else.

[00:12:50] Philip: But we're designed as human beings, as this species to be physical. But yet we, we keep doing this thing of finding [00:13:00] what are referred to as labor saving devices. And I think the life shortening devices. Okay. I was at an event last week and, um, I'd said the audience about a hundred people in the audience.

[00:13:12] Philip: And I'd said, uh, so what's this event called? And it was about wellbeing. So why did you all use the lift to get to the second floor when there's a decent set of stairs? And it's because almost by default, people will choose the easiest route. and [00:13:30] limit their own physical activity. Well, I think find a way of using your body right up until you, you're about to shuffle off your mortal coil. None of us are going to get out of this alive. You might as well be healthy while you're going.

[00:13:42] Hazel: Well, that's the interesting bit, isn't it? That when you're trying to come to terms with. Those limits, natural limits of aging, that there was a phrase that I've come across that I just thought fitted you so well, because it was about almost how by accepting your limitations, you could live a [00:14:00] limitless life, because it's always finding the what can I do, what is possible, but you're not in denial of the stuff that does change. It isn't possible anymore.

[00:14:11] Philip: Yeah, yeah. You can't stop the process of getting older, so that's a chronological thing. You can affect how well you get older and make some good choices, or you can make choices which are actually counterproductive to your well being. So [00:14:30] the discipline, I exercise four times a week, that's non negotiable exercise. And quite intensive and it has to happen because it's part of my well being mentally and physically parking that saying, I'm looking forward to a sensory lifestyle. I don't think it's personally, I don't think it's a starter at all. And it's just a. uh, hiding to no good whatsoever in terms of your well being.

[00:14:58] Hazel: That's the bit I'm fascinated [00:15:00] by, to maintain that level of, of discipline regardless. So how do you stay motivated now?

[00:15:09] Philip: For the process of it, I mean, because I was reflecting on, on this conversation. I'm always, people will always hear me saying, think about what you want, not what you don't want. That's really important. And, I was in my reflection, I was thinking about my mother and my mother was obese. And [00:15:30] had type 2 diabetes and had some significant operations, which I won't go into detail because they're not pleasant. And it would be very, it would be easier for me to say, I don't want that. So I don't want to, I don't want to gain that level of weight. I don't want to get type 2 diabetes because it's a predisposition within my family. Because of what can occur when you have type 2 diabetes, but so that's not my point of focus. It's not, [00:16:00] not the, I don't want that. What I want is the, the, the mission, which I set out 20, 25 years ago, which is to die as fit as possible.

[00:16:10] Philip: So because that's a mission, it's carved into my brain. Most of the time, not all of the time, but most of the time it informs my decisions. So I love competition and I love staying healthy, but I don't motivate myself to do [00:16:30] that. It's more of a habit now.

[00:16:33] Hazel: I like the fact that you distinguish between those habits and choices so that it isn't the, I've got to push myself towards something. It's more that image is so strong, so powerful, it pulls you towards it. So it's a, it's a different type of effort and energy. I'm hearing the difference in how you talk about it. I'd just choose it

[00:16:53] Philip: It's positive. When somebody said to me, uh, only a week or two ago, that they felt tired when they got [00:17:00] home from work.

[00:17:01] Philip: And, um, I can remember when I was preparing for competitions, when you commit to competitions, I'm committed. And, uh, turning up at a gym to do a session, I was sitting in the car in the car park, trying to crank myself up before going in and coming out with all sorts of weird and wonderful. Yeah. Quotes and chants and whatever, anything, whatever, whatever it is to get yourself wired up. And that can be the [00:17:30] downside of competition is that even when you don't feel, you really don't feel like it, you've got to do it because you can't train twice as hard the following day. It doesn't work like that. You've got to train consistency is really important. So if you miss your training session, you've missed it.

[00:17:46] Philip: And there, there, Numerous times when I didn't want to train because I wasn't in the mood. That's training for a competition, but exercise sometimes it's four times a week. Sometimes it's, it would be Monday, [00:18:00] Tuesday, rest Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. I'm tired on Thursday. I'll train Friday, Saturday. So I just shift it round.

[00:18:09] Philip: During competition time, it was carved in granite. Five times a week is gonna happen, and that's the end of it.

[00:18:17] Hazel: So how does that fit again with business life?

[00:18:21] Philip: I, well, I don't really understand why it wouldn't, why it would be such a challenge, because

[00:18:28] Hazel: that's my lazy mind. Perhaps [00:18:30]

[00:18:30] Philip: your lazy mind. No, uh, perhaps to a fault. Money has, has not been the ultimate motivator for me. Okay. Uh, so if I could work longer and make more money, I never did it. There's an amount of money, which is sufficient. And even when I was trying to build an organization, there's a cutoff. Uh, have had a family and young [00:19:00] family as they were growing up. I attended. everything that they did at school. So I never missed a single thing, but the primary reason was that part of the motivation, not the primary reason was that my father attended nothing. So for me, he was an absent father, an influential father, but an absent father. I've got three children. I went to all the sports days, all the parents evenings, didn't miss a thing.

[00:19:28] Philip: Because I [00:19:30] really wanted them to have the experience of that, that level of commitment. So why would you have children and not do? That includes work. So do you stay at work and work longer hours? If anybody is listening to this sometime and thinks, well, if don't feel guilty, if you, you live your, your chosen life, it's a choice that you make. I made my, I lost work, uh, attending children's events. I've actually had a client cut me off on [00:20:00] more than one occasion because they've discovered that I didn't do this, I did that instead, but I have no regret on that.

[00:20:06] Hazel: It's one of the conversations I have with many people about what, what might you regret at the end of your life?

[00:20:13] Hazel: And what I'm hearing is if you've. You're determined to die as fit as possible, then actually extra money doesn't take you towards that goal, it doesn't serve that goal. What I'm fascinated about, that anyone would have that mindset of, that they'd rather you make a choice of work over [00:20:30] your kids. Phenomenal attitude.

[00:20:33] Philip: Yeah, there was, there was a person that shall remain nameless, but there was a, there was the managing director of a, of a sizable business said he would introduce me to his, his Northwest sales team, uh, over a few beers. Well, that's a turn off for me straight away. So, cause I'm not, I'm not a big drinker. I don't like that type of environment. And I said, when, when he told me, I said, Oh, it's parents evening. Pause. You're [00:21:00] telling me you'd miss an opportunity to be with my sales team.

[00:21:03] Hazel: Are you telling me I've missed an opportunity to see my kids?

[00:21:06] Philip: And my response was, uh, yeah, yeah, exactly that. And so he sacked me off as a supplier to his business. I spoke to him recently. So within the past year and I've, I've not seen him or heard from him for 25 years and married and divorced. [00:21:30] And I just thought, yeah, your focus on work was excessive in my opinion, from my lifestyle, my values. But that's why I said, don't feel guilty. You just do what you want to do. You make your choices, but don't impose somebody else's values onto you if they don't fit. It's just being respectful. You know, so the choice between looking after myself physically, competing, [00:22:00] everything had to fit. And so that means something has to give, you can't have everything.

[00:22:05] Hazel: Well, it's interesting that, as you say, by making those choices of not giving up everything to, to compete.

[00:22:13] Hazel: So it shows you're able to mellow that competitive spirit a little bit, if you, if you're balancing. And I, I like the, the theme that's emerging of finding a way that you balance life, but it's always in line with your values.

[00:22:24] Philip: Yeah, well they, they're the one, the things that it should be if they are true [00:22:30] values, immutable, they're not malleable, you don't just swap and chop them to, to suit. Sometimes it can be uncomfortable sticking with them, you know, and, and it tests, it's a test, but stick with your values. I don't know anybody that, that want, that wishes they had more meetings to go to.

[00:22:50] Hazel: Yes. More time spending talking about governance.

[00:22:53] Philip: Yeah. Yeah. I think we, we need to work out some, some aspects of your business and spend [00:23:00] more time working on your business and people aren't working on themselves. The most important thing you'll ever own is self. And if you're just a vessel for information and it just flows in one direction, you're not developing yourself, then we've got problems. And I believe that's, you know, maybe we're going a bit off pace, but I think that's part of the malaise that exists within society.

[00:23:27] Philip: The other day when I was doing a [00:23:30] presentation, I asked three questions if I can get a live audience in front of me. And three questions. How many of you know of somebody using alcohol to cope with the working week? How many of you know of somebody using antidepressants and how many of you know of somebody that is stressed frequently, where at least once or twice a week, they're uncomfortable. And the number out of a hundred people, it's, it started out around about 45 percent on alcohol, about [00:24:00] 65, 70 percent with antidepressants and at least 80 percent of the audience about stress. That's not good.

[00:24:08] Hazel: No. And particularly when, I think, because stress is our perceived capacity to handle the pressure we're under. Pressure is just pressure. It's always interesting when you talk to younger people who haven't yet worked out what stress is. It's just pressure, and it's like pressure to perform or pressure to behave, but it's just pressure. [00:24:30] And then this strange thing happens when we start to perceive I don't know if I can cope with that pressure and suddenly we've got stress.

[00:24:39] Hazel: My final question is actually what we started to talk about, which is, you know, what does your future look like now? So as you head towards 70, so what's the, what's that next few years ahead going to be like? And then any final advice you've got for. people who want to be as healthy as you're intending to die. I'm hoping that's [00:25:00] by the way in many, many decades to come.

[00:25:03] Philip: I'm hoping so myself. Because the continuance, I love, I want to get better at archery. That's moving at a glacial pace, but I accept that. I'm not 16, you know, so things move slower, but they can progress. My coach, his name's Juan Carlos, he's a great guy. And last year he was at a competition in America and there was a guy there competing and he's [00:25:30] been shooting for a long time. He's just turned a hundred. Good grief. Exactly. Exactly. So. I have a high expectation. With regards to, um, going forward, I expect to do archery until I pop my clogs, but I've not necessarily hung up my, my rowing yet. One never knows.

[00:25:52] Hazel: I was going to say, so the whole, you know, you're not quite.

[00:25:56] Philip: Well, I've seen, I've seen a guy competing at the age of a [00:26:00] hundred.

[00:26:00] Hazel: Oh, that's phenomenal, isn't

[00:26:02] Philip: it? It's outstanding. It wasn't quick. It doesn't matter. He was on the rower and he was doing it. I was going to say, if he could do that a hundred, fine. Yeah. Well, I think if I could say something to a listener, it would be, have a high expectation of yourself. Don't allow other people to set the tone for you. So, When people are naysayers, it's a bit like, I mean, we're both in [00:26:30] business. When, when, when you're in business, there's plenty of people that will say, don't do it.

[00:26:35] Philip: And they're using their limitations to overlay on you. You set your own expectations. and believe in yourself and going forward. You don't have to be, you don't have to climb Mount Everest. You can walk up the nearest hill to your house. Just be your own extraordinary, but set your own expectations. Don't let somebody set the limits and boundaries for you.

[00:26:59] Hazel: I think [00:27:00] that's fabulous advice to end on. Thank you so much for your time.

[00:27:04] Philip: Thank you very much for asking me, Hazel.

[00:27:14] Hazel: So as you've heard, Philip had to make some big decisions. When he prioritized starting a business and a family and deciding it was time to end. Now he made a clear choice about prioritizing his physical health because he didn't want [00:27:30] a hip replacement. Sometimes when we have to make these choices, it can feel really hard to know, is it time to stop or should I keep going?

[00:27:39] Hazel: And there's a tool I find really useful that I'll be sharing as part of the worksheet for this episode. Because the starting point is simply to understand, do I stay or do I go? And the way to do that. is through one of my favorite tools. I use it in other episodes, which is called the Tetralemma. [00:28:00] And this essentially is a very old wisdom, initially Buddhist, absolutely verified with modern neuroscience.

[00:28:08] Hazel: And the idea is to get a piece of paper, you can get a pen, and this is one of those life changing things you can do with the lowest tech instruments possible. So with your paper and pen, the first thing is to draw a horizontal line in the middle of And on either side of it, you write the word stay, and on the [00:28:30] right hand side, you write go.

[00:28:33] Hazel: And then you form a cross by drawing a vertical line. down the middle of the page. At the top of that, you write the word both. At the bottom, you write the word neither. So what we've essentially done is taken a binary choice, i. e. a dilemma, and we've made it a tetralemma. Four questions to ask yourself that are all intention.

[00:28:56] Hazel: But actually what we know from research is that when you make decisions based [00:29:00] on a dilemma, The chance of you making a good decision is not much better than flipping a coin. So, you know, once you can break it and add another option, you rocket your chances of making good decision up into the 80 percent mark.

[00:29:15] Hazel: So, well, let's try it. If you draw, you'll stay, go, both, neither. Let's now try how to use it. Now, the way to use this is in the nicest way to get out of your head. [00:29:30] It's not trying to think through the problem. As I. Repeat many times to people, our conscious minds can only deal with five to nine bits of concrete information. Whereas our unconscious mind, it can deal with 8 million. So let it, let it do its job. And by relaxing and tuning into your body, that's how your unconscious can speak to you. So if you relax, both feet on the floor, grounded, and put your hand on the word, stay. [00:30:00] The idea, I will continue in this career with whatever that takes, the costs and the benefits.

[00:30:06] Hazel: How does it feel? What comes up for you? You might feel a tingling sensation. You might feel hot or cold, tense or relaxed. And as long as it's not sentences, because that's your head talking, as long as it's feeling sensations, just notice them. Don't judge, just notice them. Make a note on that side of the paper of everything that came up when you [00:30:30] tuned into the idea of staying in the career, in the role. In the company, in the sport, whatever it is you have, you deciding whether you should stay or go from. Shake it off. Yes. I always call it a Taylor Swift moment. Shake it off. Move over and put your hands on the other side on the word. Again, tune in to what does your body tell you about the idea of leaving?

[00:30:57] Hazel: Stopping this being an ending of this [00:31:00] and by tuning into how it feels Often you can start to then notice the difference like oh, hang on So the idea of staying I felt tired and heavy and sad that the idea of going I felt light Energized excited and sad. It's okay. It could be complex That's typical, but then you move to the word both and you tune in. What do I feel there? What do I notice? Because what you [00:31:30] notice could be, actually, there's no energy. In which case, well, then my decision is very clear. I must stay or I must go. But if there's energy in both, it's like, hang on, what might a both option be? How do I both stay and go? Do I stay in the same company but do a different role?

[00:31:50] Hazel: Do I stay teaching the sport but not actually Participating. I mean, you heard that Philip had a very clear view that he [00:32:00] thought that was not right in the martial arts, but it's a personal choice. So you decide, is there a both option where I can both stay and go? Can I leave enough of what I'm doing for it to feel good?

[00:32:14] Hazel: Or can I keep enough of what I have? For it to feel good and you're just figuring out and be okay that if there's energy in the both space You may not know what that answer looks like yet. You just know that is the answer to find what is the [00:32:30] compromise? What is the balance point between stay and go and then finally you double check with putting your hands on the word Neither. Now, really, there should be no energy here, because no energy in neither tells you the right question is on the board. But if there is, if there's a bit of, that's something weird, feeling a bit of something, don't know what that is. Almost you need that wild card answer, the fifth element you hadn't thought about. And so, you [00:33:00] can just put a marker, you can put a post it note with a big question mark on your tetralemma to say, there is something else I haven't considered. There's a different decision to make, perhaps. Maybe one I'm not ready to think about. Or maybe, if I let my mind relax, it will come to me. What is the actual question I need to answer?

[00:33:20] Hazel: But that's how tetralemmas work. And then, once you kind of know, right, so I need to stop, I need to do something different, I've got to go, or it's got to [00:33:30] be something that's a hybrid, that's okay. Because there's a technique that I'll share. in Andy's episode. And in Andy's episode, you'll hear the two highlighter technique.

[00:33:42] Hazel: And believe me, again, really low tech, it's a great option for deciding, so if I definitely need to go, where do I go to? What do I do? How do I use my strengths? How do I build on them for? And this can be an interesting combination between the two. By making the clear [00:34:00] decision, I have to go, and then what do I go to?

[00:34:05] Hazel: I hope you've enjoyed this episode of Endings, and if you'd like to share your thoughts, I'd love to hear them. You can reach me at Hazel Showell on LinkedIn or Hazel CS on X. I also have a different future worksheet that's specifically for listeners of this episode of the podcast. It's based on years of research into endings of all kind.

[00:34:27] Hazel: But it can help if you're having to make [00:34:30] big decisions about changing your career. And I won't ask for your details to get it. If you need it, you can have it. You can click on the link in the show notes to download the worksheet now. And finally, if you know somebody who might benefit from hearing about ending the career you love.

[00:34:50] Hazel: To find maybe one you could love just as much, or even more, then do share this episode with them. I'm Hazel Showell, and I hope you'll join me [00:35:00] again for another episode of Endings.