Yeah, it kind of goes back to the the build it and forget about it like

The email list, like your website and your email list go hand in hand.

You can't, you know, build the website, never update it, and expect

people to Shop on the website.

Um, and you can expect people to use that 20% off or whatever you're enticing

them to do through your email list.

If you're not going to be, um, popping up, you know, at least I like to say

twice, uh, in the month and saying, Hey, this is something new with our

brand or, Hey, how are things going with you through your email list.

Like, you can't just forget about the people on your email list, um, you

want to make them feel like they're valued because, you know, people,

like, businesses are made up of people so if you're not valuing those

people on your email list, valuing the people going to your website, then

you can't expect to make sales, um, it just, it doesn't work that way.

Welcome to the e commerce podcast with me, your host, Matt Edmundson.

Now, the e commerce podcast is all about helping you deliver e commerce well.

And to help us do just that, today, I'm chatting with Diana Simpson from Simpsons

Web Design about maximizing e commerce sales through strategic website design.

We're getting back to the basics.

We're talking about website design.

But before...

We dive into our conversation.

Let me share with you a podcast pick, a previous episode that

I think you're going to enjoy.

Check out my amazing episode with the wonderful Reece Spikerman on how to

create a killer about page that converts.

You're not going to want to miss that conversation.

Reece is an absolute legend.

Uh, and then how to get traffic that buys to your website by

another legend, uh, Chloe Thomas.

Oh, the women are killing it today.

Oh yeah.

So, check out those podcast picks.

You can access our podcast picks and our entire podcast archive for free

on our website at ecommercepodcast.

net.

Plus, if you sign up for our newsletter, we'll send you the links to the podcast

picks along with the notes and the links from our conversations all straight

to your inbox at no cost to you.

No spam, no messing, no hassle, it's just amazing stuff, so

make sure you sign up for that.

Now, I'm sure you've come across a bunch of folks stuck with their e

commerce website, or maybe they've just got siloed into working on

one or two areas of their business.

and miss the big picture?

Well, enter eCommerce Cohort to solve this particular problem.

It's a lightweight membership group with guided monthly sprints that cycle

through all the key areas of eCommerce.

The sole purpose of Cohort is to provide you with clear, actionable jobs to

be done, so you'll know what to work on with the support to get there.

It done.

So whether you are just starting out an e-commerce or if like me, you're a

well established e-commerce, uh, or a bit of a dinosaur like me is probably a

better way to put it, I encourage you to definitely check out eCommerce cohort.com.

That's eCommerce cohort.com, or you can email me directly

matt@ecommercepodcast.net with any questions and I'll try my

level best to answer them for you.

So, that's today's show sponsor.

Let's talk about today's guest, Diana, a web designer for product based businesses

who hails from the sunny south of Georgia.

Now, when she's not on her tech grind, she's out and about soaking

up the sun and sharing giggles with her sprightly toddler, who we may

hear from during the conversation.

Uh, oh yes.

So, Diana, welcome to the show.

Great to have you.

How are we doing today?

Thank you so much for having me, Matt.

I am having an awesome day, uh, just happy to be here.

I tune into your e commerce podcast, so super happy to be able to share some of

my, uh, information with your listeners.

Ah, wow, it's lovely to have a listener on the show, uh, and,

uh, and talk to you, good self.

Now, uh, you, it said in the bio that you're from sunny Georgia,

but actually you're in Florida today, uh, is what you're saying.

Are you down there on vacation?

Yes, I am down here on Vacation slash work trip.

Uh, my husband is on a work trip and my son and I are on

vacation , so it's lovely this week.

Yeah, fantastic.

Getting a bit of R& R, which is lovely.

How old's your son?

He is two years old.

Oh, wow.

The terrible twos.

Or is it?

The tangly twos, because, you know, our kids, they, I appreciate this is

not anything to do with e commerce, we'll get into e commerce in a

little minute, but our kids when they were two were absolutely brilliant.

It was the first two years where my daughter was an absolute nightmare,

but everybody else was pretty good, and then when the twos hit, everything was

downhill from there, so it was great.

I never experienced the terrible twos, so, hopefully, you'll be like me and not

have to go through all of that, you know.

Yeah.

I feel like I'm going through it a little bit.

Uh, he is definitely a little bit of a, has his own personality, throws

tantrum, doesn't get his own way.

Uh, but I think

we all?

Don't we all?

that goes with

I think I still do that and it's a long time since I was two.

But listen, it's great to have you on the show and no doubt we'll be hearing

from your son in the background as you're enjoying your vacation time.

Thanks for squeezing us in.

So let's jump into this.

How did you get started in website design?

Yeah, so I never really thought I would be doing this for, uh,

as a business, as a career.

I was in the banking industry, so I was a banker for, uh, two years and just

in the finance industry for five years.

Uh, but I really just wanted something that fused design and tech together,

um, having I had my son in 2020.

I didn't want to go back to the banking world, uh, and just

wanted to try something new.

So I started my own business, uh, kind of just offering here and

that, uh, not really focusing on, uh, Specifically websites, until

I worked on a specific project and I just fell in love with websites.

And then I noticed that I was working with mainly product based businesses.

And I niched even further with working with Shopify.

Um, so yeah, I started my business in April 2021 and it's been.

Really fun, uh, like hardships and fun times like any other

entrepreneur, but it's, it's been fun.

So April 2021, it's quite a new business, isn't it really?

Um, I say new, it's, it's in the digital space.

Anything over two months is, is, is pretty old, isn't it really?

But, um, but for, if you've been doing Shopify then for a few years,

what sort of things have you...

Figured out during those two years, I mean, you've obviously, you've

obviously learned a lot of lessons going through what you've gone through,

working with product based businesses.

What are some of the common themes or common, maybe common problems you

see people making over and over again that you're, you're always hitting?

So a lot of times, uh, clients or potentials would come to me and focus

on like one area of their website.

And that's not really a problem.

Like you do want to start with something and not get overwhelmed.

Uh, but they don't realize that the website is composed by all of the things,

like All the pages, not just the homepage, not just the product page, um, and then

They tend to kind of just want to focus on one task and then, uh, optimize it and

then wonder why the website isn't working.

Uh, so I like to tell folks that it is a long term, uh, project.

Like, you always have to be optimizing and updating your website.

Uh, it's not something that you build and, like, people are going to come

to your shop and shop automatically.

So you have to keep optimizing it.

Um...

But you do have to have a strategy in order to really drive people to your

website and get people to buy from you

hmm.

Mm

if you like a lot of people DIY their website, which is It's not a problem

when you're starting out, but if you DIY, DIY the website with the point of view

of, let me just create the website, no plan, no strategy, then it's not going

to work, um, as well as you want it to.

So it's not going to drive the sales.

Um, so I would think the biggest pain point is not having a plan from the get

go and then later realizing that their, their website is lacking something, which.

Started off with the planning and the strategy, um, and by what I mean

by that is like who is their target audience and then asking questions

about, you know, what is different about their product and why do

people care, um, because people care.

You know, there's a ton of products out there.

People want to know why they should care about your product

and why they should buy it.

Um, so those are two main things that, uh, a lot of product based businesses

don't know when they're fairly new.

And, and sometimes when they've been in business for a while, they still kind

of have these, uh, the pain points of not knowing who they're selling to.

Yeah.

Oh, I'm dropping my pen in the background there.

There's a lot to what you said there, Diana.

Let me just come back and pick on a few of the points if I can.

This idea that your website is not a one term project, but

you have to keep optimising it.

You've got to start somewhere.

You've definitely got to start.

And you've definitely got to begin.

What the industry likes to term the MVP, the Minimum Viable Product.

It doesn't have to be perfect, but it has to be pretty reasonable.

Um, and that's actually not hard to do with a Shopify website, is it?

It's pretty reasonable to get something quite basic, pretty easy to get

something quite basic and reasonable.

Um, but I liked what you said about this idea of keep optimising it.

It was for us, um, in my own e com journey, one of the things I

realised was that we would do a major redesign every two years.

Um, and this was just something that I budgeted for because technology will move

on so rapidly that what you design now in two years time, you're probably, you

know, you're gonna have to think about some other form, like now, you know,

Apple's released the VR head goggles, so somehow we're gonna have to tie websites

into that at some point, I'm fairly sure.

Um, so you've got all these things going on, so we always planned, and we still

do plan to have a pretty big, robust.

Site update every two years, but that doesn't mean for those

two years we don't do anything.

Um, there's constant iterations and changes.

And so we're probably updating the site on a weekly basis.

Now bearing in mind, my site is not a Shopify site.

We don't do Shopify sites, not because I'm against Shopify.

I just have my own platform, which I really like.

Um, and the team have developed and they work on it and they know how

to make it work, which is great.

So we, at the moment we have our own platform.

Um, I'm super, I'm, I, I, and I, I kind of, I get what you're saying

about this constant iteration.

That's what we do, the constant iteration, the redesign every two years.

I am intrigued how you came to the, this understanding of, you know, where

you said you've not got a plan from the get go, um, you need to think about who

your target audience is and what makes your product stand out to your audience.

What have you, I guess, what have you experienced that's made you realise

actually these are really critical, important parts and where, where are

people missing it, do you think on, where do you typically see people

missing it and what, what's the implications of that on their website?

So, I guess because of the conversations that I've had with some potentials

and then also with clients, um, for example, the latest project that

I did, uh, she was struggling with knowing who her target audience was

because of the way her product is.

She sells Peshtemal, uh, and so there's a lot of other boutiques or stores

that sell You know, Turkish towels.

So, um, the product isn't unique, but the mission behind it is unique.

So she, uh, donates to, uh, breast cancer patients and really focuses on like women

and how to help women when they're going through these, uh, breast cancer journeys.

Um, and so she wanted to really focus on that and, um.

Sell the mission and the value versus just selling the product

hmm.

Mm

and she really didn't know how to do that.

She was kind of concerned about Focusing on a target audience because she

thought she was going to miss out on the other Buyers or the other people that

weren't you know women and all of that

hmm.

But I feel like in the e commerce space you can't attract everybody like it's one

of those famous things if you You know, sell to, or if you talk to everyone,

you're really not talking to anybody.

Um, so it was one of those things where we had to ask deeper questions, like,

you know, the mission, the values, uh, what her brand was all about,

and even go into like brand identity.

Um, which I really feel like when you're designing a website, that should be

the first thing that you do is have a.

Well thought out and, um, not just individuals, but brand strategy, uh,

behind that so that the website actually works and that it all flows together

because if you don't have a well established brand identity, uh, everything

else kind of It's so much harder to do, even through marketing and all of that.

And I know that's a completely different conversation, but I do

feel like brand identity has a lot to do with, um, creating a

website that really works for you.

Yeah, again, I, I, that's very wise and, um, I think for me when, you know, when

people talk about competing with Amazon, how do you compete with Amazon when

Amazon sells the same product as you?

You know, you may sell it cheaper, but people are going to buy from Amazon

because of Amazon Prime, blah, blah, blah.

Um, the one thing Amazon can't do.

It seems as best as I can tell, uh, is they can't copy your story.

Um, they don't have your vision.

They don't have your values.

They don't have your story.

They don't have what's authentically you.

Um, and I, I.

I, I love what you said there about, um, about the, for the, the, the lady

with the, was it Turkish towels that you said the product wasn't unique, the

mission behind the product was unique.

And so positioning her brand to tell her unique story,

um, is super, super critical.

And I, and I think if you're listening to the show and you have a site where

you're selling a, um, a product, which is common to many sites.

You stand out on your mission, on your story, on your brand identity, don't you?

That's how you differentiate.

That's what we did in the beauty space for years.

Um, how do we differentiate?

Well, we, we just had a very different look, feel and brand story.

We, we sort of told our story in a different way and that

worked really well for us.

Um, that works super, super well.

And so I love that.

I love, uh, how the mission is unique, even if the product isn't.

So how did you help this lady position that story on her website?

How did you?

What was some of the, I guess, I guess the reason I'm asking this Diana is because

there's going to be people listening to the show who are just starting out

and setting up who are going to go, I don't know what a brand identity

is, um, I'm selling a product maybe that some other websites are selling.

So how do I, how do I tell my missional story in a way that's

attractive to my target audience?

So we started asking questions that were...

Targeted to, um, bring out some deeper understanding.

So some of the questions we asked were like, who would

you, um, sell the product to?

Like, obviously, but then why would you sell it?

Why do you feel like this is important to have as your brand story?

Um, because a lot of times, uh, people don't really know why until they start

exploring, um, realizing, like, maybe...

You know, I have a deeper desire to position this product in the

market because of this reason, because, you know, she went through,

uh, that same journey herself.

So she was really passionate about that, uh, so therefore she could really show the

brand story, uh, for her product that way.

Um, and then another thing that we did is we also researched the

market, so what other boutiques sold?

We're already out there that sold Turkish towels.

Um, and there's a lot.

So, uh, you know, and from there we started noticing that people were only

targeting people that were visiting the beach, like, you know, sunny areas,

uh, nothing really towards women, uh, nothing that was really had a mission.

Um, so I think the first step would be to research also, um, in the market and

see If your product already exists in the market, do some research and try to gather

insights on, you know, what are they doing and how can you do it different?

Who can you target that nobody else has targeted?

Or if they have, how can they, how can you do it different?

Yeah, that's a very good, um, another very good point, and again, I agree, I think

it's one of those things that we get in such a rush to get the website up and

running, especially in the early days, doing the research becomes problematic.

Um, and then if you, if you sort of, if you do that without doing the research

and you sort of stumble across something that works and you start to become sort

of semi successful, you understand I'm talking from experience here, um, you

start to become semi successful then you're too busy to do the research

anyway and why do you need to do research because you're sort of semi successful.

But actually sitting down and trying to figure out more information about your

customers and what their story is, how it relates to you, what they're interested

in, what they're not interested in.

where they shop, what kind of places they eat at, what kind of clothes they wear,

um, what kind of brands they connect with.

I mean, all of these things are super, super important, right?

So how did you, how did you do that research?

You said you researched, um, you saw that some of her competitors were

advertising specifically to people going to the beach and sunny places.

How did you figure that out, um, and what other type of research

did you do, um, on her competitors?

Mm hmm.

Uh, we really just went through like a, um, Research on like Google.

Uh, so you type it, type it in Peshtemal Boutique and seeing came up, uh,

which the first ones were wholesalers.

So that was like a big one.

There was a lot of wholesale companies that were selling the Turkish towels.

Um, and then the next one was like, You know, actual boutiques that were selling

the towels, but once again, they were targeting people going to the beach.

hmm.

Mm

this is the use for the towel, which, uh, you know, it's very common.

People go to the beach, they need a towel, but the way that my client.

was wanting to position it, and we positioned it this way, is that she

wanted the pessimal to be as a symbol for women to embrace themselves, so

hmm.

the Peshtemal could be worn, um, to make them feel more confident after

having gone through the breast cancer, um, surgeries, and all of that.

Oh, wow.

That's, uh, And again, there's a unique story in that, isn't there?

And, and, and, and figuring that out.

That's, that's awesome.

So just going back, one of the things that you said that I wanted to pick up

on, uh, and again, not to pick on the lady with the Turkish towels, but were

some, there's some good lessons here that I'm quite enjoying talking about.

Cause this is old school, um, e commerce.

It's this sort of e commerce 101, right?

Which, um, I think too many people sort of skip this part, uh, and go

to the nice shiny bits, like give me the latest marketing thing.

Um.

The thing that you mentioned, which I thought was super interesting was how,

um, how there was a fear to niche down, um, both in, in her target audience.

So, you know, like you say, you can't sell everybody.

If you try and sell everybody, you won't sell to anybody kind of thing.

Um, and this is a constant thing that I see, uh, in a lot of conversations I have.

The fear to niche down to something quite specific and

focus on a specific, um, product.

For those listening who are trying to sell everybody and therefore not selling

anybody and they're not really niching down, what advice would you give?

I would say...

That you don't specifically have to niche down to like a target audience There's

different ways that you can niche down.

This just happened to be her way of niching down So you can niche down by the

type of products that you offer Like if you're just niching down into the beauty

space, you can do it that way if you want to niche down by the way that your product

is made like if it It's eco friendly.

Is it, you know, ethical?

Um, that's also another way that you can niche down.

So there's so many ways that you can niche down, but it's really what makes sense

to your brand and your product and what's going to be, um, the most beneficial to

get eyes on your product and that you feel aligns with your mission and values

Um,

is um, Targeting the way like they niche down, that's, that's what

they need to be thinking about.

What makes sense for their brand and their mission and their values.

okay.

And so, uh, what are the, I mean, again, it doesn't have to be from

The Lady with the Turkish Tales, although I'm quite intrigued now.

I'm, I'm, I'm intrigued by her story.

Um, what are the things have you seen, uh, people do on their websites

that are a bit of a big no no, that aren't really helping them?

Mm-hmm.

So I would start with the header, which is the above the fold when people land on the

home page, if they land on the home page.

All they have is a picture of the product, but they don't have anything

that describes who the product is for.

Why people kind of give the experience of what they want to make their customers

feel when they purchase a product, um, and having the call to action to

shop now, um, and then even offering some incentives to, to shop with them.

And I'm not talking about bombarding them with pop ups, because I personally

don't like having every page.

With a pop up here, pop up there, but like having incentives like, hey, buy

one, get one free, like on that header image and updating it, um, constantly,

uh, because like I said before, some people, like, build a website and then

they never, um, update it with, like, the latest sales or something that

keeps their customers coming back, you know, interested in shopping with them.

Yeah, it's an interesting one, isn't it?

The, the hero section on the homepage, the most viewed section on anybody's website.

Um, in a lot of ways, especially with organic, but it's one of

those where, um, where you're right, I don't, excuse me one sec.

Excuse me.

Just getting a bit of, a bit of a frog in my throat.

Um, so with our homepage, you kind of see that.

I get that you're, what you're saying is that a lot of homepages

are stagnant, aren't they?

They sort of, they, they set it and forget it, uh, and they're not updating

on a regular basis, especially that hero section, the first fold above

the screen, which is, like I say, it's one of the most visited areas.

And so if you're returning visitors, that becomes quite an important part to sort

of, you know, pique their curiosity and get them interested in what's going on.

What sort of things have you seen work well in the hero section?

I would say having like, the most popular ones that I've seen is like, using it

as GIFs, so G I F, I don't know if I'm saying it right, uh, where, yeah, so,

they have, it's actually a video, um, so, if, it keeps playing, um, which,

it can be a good thing and a bad thing, so, if it's If the video is too, um,

the sizing is not right, then it can be heavy on the website and it, you know,

slows it down, but it can be helpful because it catches people's attention.

Like it, it just keeps playing, um, and then as, uh, like the section

talking about the product, um, like it makes you want to, you know, Look

and see what their product is about.

Like, it's different.

Not a lot of websites have that, so that would be something that people

could, you know, use for their own advantage to get people to shop.

And then another thing would be, um, like having on the, on the header, um,

I don't think I've seen a lot of these, but having like a little, uh, underneath

the hero section where they can offer like a freebie, um, Some people can

sign up to their email list, um, cause then, that way they're getting people

on their email list and, um, they can like, target them to shop with them, so.

Very good.

I'm intrigued and interested by the idea of the video GIFs.

And when you were talking about it, I was smiling because, uh,

you are way too young for this, Diana, but I am not, unfortunately.

I remember...

In the 90s, in the late 90s, um, we were using GIFs on websites, uh, in the, you

know, like little dancing plants and stuff like this, um, because it was the

only form of animation that we could do and it was just, it was intriguing

and I'm just, if, if you're, if you're listening to the show and you're of a

certain age, you'll, you'll be able to picture some of these things in your

head and you're just going to smile back, you know, to how website design was in

the 90s with the little animated GIFs.

Of course, technology has moved on.

Quite a bit quicker now.

And the reason this intrigues me, the, the video gifs,

because I have seen it actually.

I've seen it done badly and I've seen it done well.

And, um, I think you're right.

I think it does capture your imagination, especially because it was a rage a

few years ago, was to add on your hero section of video background.

So something like Athletic Greens, for example, has quite an interesting

video background on their hero section.

But those video backgrounds for the...

Even now, still don't really play on a lot of mobile devices.

Um, it was really only desktop and then as, um, as desktop has sort

of fallen in popularity and mobile devices have risen, people have sort

of steered away from those video backgrounds because what's the point?

They're not going to show on the mobile.

But with the, the GIFs, a lot of, like 99% of those could potentially show on a

mobile device whereas the videos couldn't.

And so, um, yeah, so I think this is an intriguing.

I wonder if we will start seeing it more and more, like you say, my only,

my only reservation is does it slow the site down, which even in a world

of crazy fast broadband is still a big deal, especially on mobile.

Google are monitoring that.

It's a real big issue for them in terms of site speed.

So, um, so I like that, love that, think that's great.

The offering a freebie to get on your email, we did that, I can tell you

definitely stories about that, uh, when we did the beauty business, we offered

free samples, uh, you could choose anything, and it was just like our

onboarding, it's like, we know you're not ready to buy now, uh, but we know you're

interested in what we've got, so, you know, let's, I'll give you an easy way

for you to give me your email and address.

Uh, is, is in effect what it was, um, although we did, we gave them free

samples, but we did charge for delivery, um, so we did have a small sort of fee

involved, um, as a little qualifier, um, but it did work really well,

actually, we got a lot of good leads.

Just doing that.

So I think that's a great idea as well.

Loving all these ideas, Diana.

Loving them all.

They're, they're super, super good.

And again, coming back to something you said earlier.

Um, you reminded me of a chap called Don Miller.

I don't know if you've ever come across Don Miller.

Um...

don't know.

Don't think I have.

Don Miller, who is, he heads up Storybrand, at least that's what it

used to be called, I don't know if he's changed his name, but Storybrand

was really interesting because he said the hero section of a website within

five seconds has to answer, uh, three questions, which he called the grunt

test, uh, which was a fascinating thing.

And the grunt test was you, you, you should be able to show somebody

your website, five seconds later, close the screen and they need to

be able to answer three questions.

What is it you sell?

How is it going to benefit me?

How do I get started?

Right, those were the sort of the three questions, which is what you mentioned.

Um, your hero section, I wrote it down here, your hero section needs

to clearly answer who it's for.

Um, what it is they're going to feel, what, uh, what benefits they're

going to get from using the product and having a clear call to action.

And I agree on the no pop ups, please, ladies and gentlemen, no more pop ups.

We don't need them.

In fact, we just don't need them.

We don't.

We could cancel them.

There could be a law which barred them and I would be happy with that,

because that would be a beautiful thing.

Um, so, uh, low in that, uh, information there on the, on the header section.

Anything else on there?

Anything you want, anything else you've missed, or you want to throw in there,

or shall we move on to the next bit?

Um, I think that was all for the hero section, um, those were

like my little few tips there.

Few tips.

Okay, so what's after the hero section?

So I would say that the other thing that people sometimes miss when they're,

uh, DIYing their website is the, like they bombard the homepage with like

bestsellers and sometimes, you know, those products may not be the bestsellers, um.

There's stock which we're trying to get rid of and everybody knows it.

This is the stock that nobody else wants to buy, we're going

to put it in the bestseller category and hope you'll buy it.

Yeah, yeah, I know the one you mean,

And like, there's nothing wrong specifically with that, but like, they

don't really have an add to cart or buy now, uh, or sometimes it's just a

product by itself, um, not really a lot of context as to what the product is.

And again, sometimes people would just scroll right through it because they don't

know, you know, why it's a bestseller.

And then another thing would be the email opt in forms, um, like if you're

just saying sign up to my, you know, newsletter, um, you know, why do people

need to sign up, like what are you offering them, what are you giving,

you know, a 20% discount, which I also have a reservation for that because

a lot of, we're now using that, so you have to come, like get more

creative with it so that people will actually sign up to your email list.

yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Not just get 20% off your first order.

What we found actually is, um, if you put things on your website,

like 20% off your first order, um.

A lot of existing customers, so returning customers come into your website that

have purchased from you in the past.

Get pretty annoyed by this because you're, you're giving value to the first

time customer but it feels like you're not valuing your returning customer.

Like, well they get 20% off but I don't, but this is the

fifth time I've ordered so.

Surely, something's wrong somewhere and we noticed actually, uh, when

we used to do that, we got, um, more and more customer service emails from

customers going, how do I get a discount?

What about me?

Um, or, you know, they'd go set up yet another free Google email.

So I wasn't really growing up, growing my email list.

It was the same customers, five bloody emails, um, cause they

were all at the same address.

And so, um, so it was really interesting to see how.

How people then started to try and play the system and so I just felt like it

wasn't working and it has become a thing now which people have become blind to,

that give me your email address and get 10% off your first order, um, and actually

now if I go to a website I just close it knowing full well if I am going to

buy something from that website I can go back and get that pop up to reopen.

But in the first instance, it's just a bit annoying, um, but you know, we had a long

conversations about this, about actually taking that off the site and then focusing

on giving value to returning customers.

Um, I'm finding another way to give an incentive to new visiting customers,

but giving more value to returning customers, um, uh, you know, to

increase our average order value and customer order frequency numbers.

That on the whole as a strategy made a lot of sense to me and it worked very

well and it still does work very well.

But, you know, not just throwing something on there because you're like,

Oh, it's on somebody else's website.

Therefore it should be on mine.

You know, the sort of attempts that I have to get your email.

The other thing, of course, with this, uh, Diana, maybe you can

speak to this actually, is they.

The amount of websites that go to the effort, say, give me your

email and I'll give you 10% off and then don't do anything with

Oh yeah, yeah,

you know what I mean?

on the, like on the actual email, yeah, it's like you're not introducing yourself

to your audience, like they don't know what you're about, what your brand is

about, so personalizing it, uh, the email itself, and then making them feel

like, hey, we know you, we know you want this product, come and shop with us, um.

Yeah, I totally agree with that.

Yeah, it's fascinating, isn't it?

It's just that, oh, here's your 10% off coupon, but then the amount of

people I've, because I monitor it, because I'm, I'm obviously, I'm, I'm

a bit weird like this, but I'm, I sign up to things on email and then

I want to see what the sequences are that they send me afterwards.

Is there anything that I can learn from this?

What did I like about it?

What did I not like about it?

And the amount of them you set up and they give you the code and

that's it, you never, you just never hear from these people and

you think what a wasted opportunity.

Um, especially if they give me a code and I've not used it.

You know, it's kind of like, well hang on a minute, maybe I should email them

a few days later and follow up, hey did you get your code, is everything

okay, have you got any questions?

You know, those kind of things.

Um, so that always, uh, intrigues me, uh, in a lot of ways, um, is the, so I,

I think you're right, the email sign up.

For me.

And I'll, I've mentioned this before, it's, it's a, but it's something

that I think I'll keep on mentioning because I think it's still important.

In e commerce, your primary aim of that website is to get somebody

to buy your product, right?

The whole reason the website is there is to get somebody to buy your product.

If they're not going to buy your product, the second aim, the second

primary aim of your website, the very next thing should be to try

and get their email address, right?

This is my opinion, you know, um, so the, the transitional call to

action, the secondary call to action, whatever you want to call it, um,

the tertiary call to action, it, The primary call is always to sell.

If they're not ready to buy, get their email address and be

creative in ways to do that.

And then be creative in how you communicate because you can onboard really

well, can't you, with that strategy.

Um, that I think has worked for me very, very well over the years.

And I think that's probably what you're alluding to here, isn't

it, with the sign up forms.

It's like, if you can't get the sale, do something well to get their email address.

Yeah, it kind of goes back to the the build it and forget about it like

The email list, like your website and your email list go hand in hand.

You can't, you know, build the website, never update it, and expect

people to Shop on the website.

Um, and you can expect people to use that 20% off or whatever you're enticing

them to do through your email list.

If you're not going to be, um, popping up, you know, at least I like to say

twice, uh, in the month and saying, Hey, this is something new with our

brand or, Hey, how are things going with you through your email list.

Like, you can't just forget about the people on your email list, um, you

want to make them feel like they're valued because, you know, people,

like, businesses are made up of people so if you're not valuing those

people on your email list, valuing the people going to your website, then

you can't expect to make sales, um, it just, it doesn't work that way.

Yeah.

No, I totally agree with you.

I totally agree with you.

So, uh, we've talked a lot about the, you know, the first page.

We've talked about the header, we've talked about the email signup, we've

talked about the call to action.

Um, Let's talk a little bit about the product page, uh, for a minute, uh, Diana,

what sort of things do you think people can do to improve their product page?

So some of the things, and this is actually, um, I have like a

little freebie, um, on my website.

How to optimize your product page.

So the main thing would be not to overwhelm them with all the

information like front and center.

You always want to start slowly so start off with the product description, the name

of the product, the image of the product, and then slowly start talking about the

benefits, why people should use it, and then Add in, um, a call to action to add

to cart, give them some payment options, uh, like that's another pet peeve of mine.

If they don't have payment options on that product page, I'm most

likely going to click out of the website because I don't want to

grab my wallet to make the purchase.

So have different payment options like, you know, PayPal.

Google Pay, like, the ones that make sense to your

Yeah, yeah.

yeah.

and then also, um, like, have the testimonials of people who have

purchased before, because nine times out of ten, people want to know what

the experience was, uh, what the product is really like, so, having that, um,

and, and then another thing is, not just having the testimonials, like,

just Testimonials, here they are.

But having something that catches the eye, like, you know, um, some color, uh,

if you can, like, get a picture of them.

Something that really shows people that people are buying this

product and that it's amazing.

That is so true.

That is so true.

I, the thing which really stood out to me there from what you were

saying is the payment options.

The buy with Apple Pay, the buy with, Um, PayPal, the buy with Google Pay, I mean

I'm an Apple Pay guy all the time and I, I, I rarely get my wallet out these days,

even when I go to the store, you know, and it's like, I was, whenever I go to a store

and I can't pay with the tap, you know, of my phone, I'm just utterly confused now.

Uh, I'm like, what do you mean I can't, I just stand like an old

fool in the shop going, I don't know what to do, I don't know what to do.

And so websites are quickly becoming a bit like this.

It's like, well, I've got Apple Pay and I've got Google Pay.

So why do I need anything else in my life?

I can just tap a, you know, it reads my fingerprint and it's all done.

Why do I, why do I need anything else?

And so I think having those options are super, super important, aren't they?

Super critical.

And, um, I really like that.

Again, that one step process, that quick and easy checkout, the ability

to get out there super, super quick.

Um, on the product page then, so you start off with basic product information.

We're not overwhelming people and we're giving them as much information.

I think, you know, product pages.

can actually be quite long.

You can give people as much information as they, they want to

consume, I suppose, on that page.

Um, and if they keep scrolling, they'll keep reading.

If they don't, they'll just click the button and they'll, they'll

be on out of there, won't they?

Um, so one of the things that has always intrigued me, Diana, maybe you've seen

this, maybe this was a Turkish lady, I don't know the Turkish towel lady,

um, is when people, you go to their website and they have this product.

And it's like a cut and paste description, right?

So yes, I'm selling a towel that maybe 50 other websites are selling.

And I've got the same description that everybody's used because they've

all copied it from the same place.

You know, it's all like this very dull, dreary description.

It's very vanilla and there's no personality in it.

And so one of the things that.

Um, I loved about what you said and just bringing it all back with that, that

brand voice is a great place to put your brand voices in that product description,

uh, and have, have that sort of come through, especially with the advent of

chat GPT 4, sorry to hark on about AI for those of you that are anti AI, but

it can write some remarkable product descriptions in your tone of voice

if you figure out the right prompts.

And so actually.

Writing something that people want to read and enjoy reading has

tremendous conversion potential.

Uh, events, I think, on your website.

But if it's just the cut and paste, this is 4 inches by 5 inches, this has got

30 threads per inch, this is beige, blue or brown, and it, you know, is machine

washable at 40 degrees centigrade.

It's kind of like, ugh, really, come on, um, whereas you, you could quite

easily do something that's quite fun or luxurious or just something that

fits in with your values, right?

Right, yeah, and like you mentioned, you can now use

ChatGPT, which I absolutely love.

Um, which, uh, can also say that, with that, you also don't want to fall

into the trap of copy and pasting.

Like, you want to make sure that it's your brand voice.

Uh, refining it, tweaking it, um, giving it direction so that it can actually...

Come out with something that is, you know, yours and not just something that's like,

first try, ChatGPT, let me put it on the product description, um, because I mean,

I'm all for a ChatGPT, um, but you also know, have to know how to use it, so.

yeah, you do.

It's worth taking the time, isn't it?

One of the things, as you're, as you're talking, I'm smiling, I'm like, I'm just

picturing actually, because one of the things that you can do with ChatGPT is

say, write this in the style of, you know, and you can write a famous person's name.

And so I was just thinking that if I owned a website that was like a British sort of,

Merch website, you know, like, um, we just sold British merch and, you know, with

Union Jacks and all that sort of stuff.

I'd be tempted to go to JackGPT and say, write this product description

in the style of Winston Churchill.

Do you know what I mean?

Just to see what it would come up with.

Uh, which I would end up, no doubt, tweaking, but I imagine it

would be really quite interesting.

Um, and have like a little cartoon Churchill on your

website or something like that.

Um, I wonder actually if you could, I'm sure you could, you could tell Chat G.

P.

T.

to write in the style of the, you know, a sort of former Queen

Elizabeth, because I imagine, or even King, the present King Charles.

Uh, but somebody like Churchill, I think, would be quite funny.

So you can do things like that now.

There's no real excuses to not do them, other than...

I just don't know what I'm doing, but you know, watch a few videos on YouTube

and you can learn pretty much most things about chat GPT, um, especially

when it comes to writing product copy.

But like you say, don't just put it in copy and paste because it does sound very

corporate, very boring, very vanilla, very quickly and gets very repetitive.

Um, so do play around with it, but, um, no, it's awesome.

That's great.

Listen, Diana.

That's some top tips.

I've enjoyed this conversation.

Like I said, it's one of those things where, um, don't get me wrong, every guest

that comes on the show, I think I just, I do enjoy the conversation and sometimes we

go deep, sometimes we get pretty advanced.

And then there are times like this where it's like, I just, it's just

good to go over the basics because wherever you are, um, whether you're

starting out, whether you know you like us, you've got multi million pound

sites or whether you've got a hundred million pound sites or, you know.

You're on Amazon selling five billion dollars a year, wherever

you are on that spectrum.

Um, these principles, these basics apply to all of us and just revisiting

your site and just going through actually what's our hero like?

Do we offer multiple payment options?

Um, just rethinking some of these things is always super, super helpful.

So Diana.

you for coming on and sharing your wisdom.

Uh, if people want to reach out, if they want to connect with you, connect, uh,

with what you're doing with the Shopify sites, um, find out more what it's like

to raise a two year old, whatever it is.

Uh, what's the best way to, to get a hold of you?

Uh, so I have my website, it's, uh, simpsonswebdesign.

com, and you can find pretty much, uh, like free resources and all the good

stuff on there, and then I hang out on Instagram, uh, simpsons underscore

webdesign, um, and yeah, so you'll find some live stories on there

from me and my toddler, and Shopify tips, so all the goods on Instagram.

Very good.

Now, at the time of recording, and this might age the recording

slightly, uh, Threads, Instagram Threads came out last night.

Um, have you signed up for your Threads account?

I have not, but I have heard so many stories already.

Uh, I'm probably going to.

Yeah, I was going to say, is this something you're going to do, I'm really,

it's really, I've signed up for the Threads account, um, under my personal,

uh, account as in Matt Edmundson, I say personal, but you know, my, my personal,

yeah, my personal account, Matt Edmundson account, um, and I've signed up for

the Threads and I've engaged in a few conversations, um, part of me wonders

if it's going to be a bit of a fad.

Do you know what I mean, where it's here today, gone tomorrow,

um, I'm sort of 50 50, I'm on the fence a little bit at the moment.

Um, but yeah, it'll be really interesting to see where that goes.

But, we will of course, uh, put those links to your website and to

your Instagram profile in the show notes, which you can get for free

along with the transcript on the website, which is ecommercepodcast.

net.

Diona, thank you so much, uh, Diona, Diana.

I've got a friend called Diona, she spells the name Diana, but

I have to pronounce it Diona.

This is why.

Um, I don't know why.

I just, that's just what I'm told.

But Diana, thank you for coming on the show.

Uh, super lovely to talk to you.

Um, and it was funny because when we started recording, you were like, my

two year old should be napping now, but he decided to wake up sooner.

I think he's been remarkably well behaved.

Uh, you know, we've, we've not really heard too much from him.

So good on him.

Well done.

Yeah, it's been really fun talking with you, Matt, and I

really enjoyed our conversation.

That's been awesome.

Thanks for coming on.

Uh, it's been great.

And as I said, we will of course link to Diana in.

The show notes, so huge thanks again Miss Diana for joining me and also

a big shout out to today's show sponsor, the e commerce cohort.

Remember to check out their website, ecommercecohort.

com.

They also have free training, which I've done, I recorded and if you are

regular to the show, you may have heard me talk about this before, if this is

your first time and you've made it all the way to the end, you can get access.

to that free training without an email.

Just go and watch it at ecommercecycles.

com.

That's where I talk about the framework that I use to grow my e com businesses.

Some of the stuff that Diana and I've been talking about

in that course, check it out.

Also be sure to follow the e commerce podcast wherever you get your

podcasts from because we've got yet more great conversations lined up

and I don't want you to miss it.

Any of them at all?

No, I don't.

And in case no one has told you yet today, dear listener, let me be the first

person to tell you, you are awesome.

Yes, you are.

Created awesome.

It's just a burden you have to bear.

Diana has to bear it, her two year old son has to bear it, I've got to bear

it, and you've got to bear it as well.

It's just the way it goes.

Now, the e commerce podcast is produced by Aurion Media.

You can find our entire archive of episodes on your favourite podcast app.

The team that makes this show possible is Sadaf Beynon and Tanya Hutsuliak.

Our theme song was written by Josh Edmundson.

And as I mentioned, if you would like to read the transcript or show notes, head

over to the website ecommercepodcast.

net.

That's it from me.

That's it from Diana.

Thank you so much for joining us.

Have a fantastic week wherever you are in the world.

I'll see you next time.