>> Susan Schwartz: Some birds sing at dawn to wake us up. But today

we're celebrating the birthday of a certain

nocturnal songbird whose award winning cocktails,

wonderful hospitality and sultry nightly

soundtrack have been keeping London warbling for

15 years. I'm, um, Susan Schwartz, your drinking

companion and this is Lush Life podcast. Every

week we're inspired to live life one cocktail at a

time. Today we're turning our attention to

Nightjar, the shortage bar that rewrote London's

late night playbook. Joining me are the brilliant

duo behind it, Roisin Stimson and Edmund Viall.

Long before Nightjar became a fixture on the

World's 50 Best Bars list, the top 500 bars and

every other list in town, Rosie and Edmund had a

dream and the drive to create a place that brought

together all their passions, all their bars.

Nightjar, Oriole and Swift hold a special place in

my heart and you'll see why. I don't want to

reveal too much of their story in this intro. So

let's get right into the episode and have them

guide us through the story of Nightjar. But before

that, if you love Lush Life, we would so

appreciate your support. By signing up to our

newsletter, you.

>> Susan Schwartz: Can get our advice on anything to.

>> Susan Schwartz: Do with home bartending, where to drink in every

major city, special recipes and even your very own

Lush Life mug. Just head to

alushlifemanual.substack.com and sign up. Now grab

that old fashioned and let's join Rosie and

Edmund.

>> Susan Schwartz: It's so great to have you guys on the show

finally. I can't believe it. It's been too long.

>> Roisin Stimson: I know, it's great to be here. Thank uh, you,

thank you so much. So my name's Rosie, I own

Nightjar, Oriole and Swift with Edmund, my husband

and business partner. We both grew up in London. I

grew up in Finchley and uh, always wanted to be

part of the central London scene. So uh, I think

that's partly why I've ended up doing bars and

entertainment places in central London. But I came

from a very kind of arts loving musical background

and uh, born to an Irish mother and an Irish music

playing father, although he's British, my dad

really loved the kind of the big life of eating

and drinking and we had lots of, we hosted lots of

parties at home with lots of live music and things

and so I really always grew up feeling that that

was the best of things and I'm an amateur singer

myself and when Edmund and I were in Dublin

univers, well we're at Trinity In Dublin together.

We would go and see shows, you know, sort of jazz

gigs and things. And there was one seminal one

where it was a very kind of old school jazz gig in

a very dingy pub. And, um, literally the idea was,

wouldn't it be great if we could see this in the

environment that it was set in, back in the 20s,

30s, et cetera. That was the seed of the idea. And

obviously after that, that was Nightjar. What

became Nightjar.

>> Susan Schwartz: And wait, wait, wait, you're going way too fast.

Oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness. You have lush

life. We take it very slowly, I love. Well,

that's.

>> Roisin Stimson: Anyway, that's how it started.

>> Susan Schwartz: We're gonna wait, we're gonna unpack a lot of

that.

>> Roisin Stimson: All right, all right, all right.

>> Susan Schwartz: Edmund, why don't you just introduce yourself?

>> Edmund Viall: Yeah. So London born and bred in, um, Islington

and Highbury, to a. A mother and father who loved

hosting, Particularly my dad. He's the kind of guy

who'll offer you a drink and if you refuse, he'll

have such a pained expression on his face that you

end up accepting it anyway.

>> Susan Schwartz: Was there a specific drink that he had that he

would offer?

>> Edmund Viall: Moved through a lot over the years.

>> Roisin Stimson: Very boozy Pimms.

>> Edmund Viall: Yeah, that was.

>> Roisin Stimson: Yeah, not very much Pims. Lots of other things.

>> Edmund Viall: That's right. And yeah, Glass say he's now. He's

actually now really into Negronis.

>> Susan Schwartz: Yeah.

>> Edmund Viall: And, um, sometimes he'll offer you a Negroni with

a little bit of soda water topped up. So it's

barely even a drink. Yeah. So, yeah, it's someone

who. My father was someone who. To show people a

good time. And I think that seeing that over the

years and enjoying it and being the beneficiary of

it has been very formative for me and what

motivated me to get into hospitality.

>> Susan Schwartz: Now, Rosie said you both went to Dublin to

university.

>> Roisin Stimson: Yeah.

>> Susan Schwartz: What were you going to study?

>> Roisin Stimson: We both completed our, uh, four years there and I

did History of Art and Spanish. All right, Edmund.

>> Edmund Viall: And I was English lit and Spanish.

>> Susan Schwartz: And you just happened to meet there or you knew

each other beforehand?

>> Roisin Stimson: We didn't know. We didn't know each other

beforehand. But, uh, Edmund came a year after I

was there and then I was on a year off as part of

my Spanish course. So I didn't meet him initially.

And then in my third year, I met him through

mutual friends.

>> Edmund Viall: Um, yeah, we kind of got set up a little bit.

>> Susan Schwartz: A little bit set up. And when you went in, what

were you thinking might be your careers?

>> Roisin Stimson: Oh, I thought that, uh, I would like to be an art

dealer. Ah. I think that was the general idea,

but, you know, that was sort of one of them. I had

lots of ideas, but that was certainly why I did

that course.

>> Edmund Viall: Like many humanities degree holders, I did not

have much of an idea. I think I went through a

film director, you know, a nonprofit director, uh,

banker, lawyer maybe. All sorts of ideas. But as

happens when, you know, when you leave university,

you do end up having to get a proper job quite

quickly. And that's what I did.

>> Roisin Stimson: Yeah. Right.

>> Susan Schwartz: So you had.

>> Susan Schwartz: You went to the Seminole Music hall or what was

it? It was a concert.

>> Roisin Stimson: It was a very dingy pub on Georgia street in

Dublin. And it was, uh, an artist called Camilo

Sullivan.

>> Edmund Viall: So she's actually like. She's probably one of the

biggest names in sort of cabaret now.

>> Roisin Stimson: Yeah.

>> Edmund Viall: Um, she's very much about storytelling through

song and all this kind of stuff. And it was. It

was a really, really special performance. But as

Rosie said, it was a special performance in a sort

of slightly dingy, you know, tiny, smoky pub

basement.

>> Roisin Stimson: Wet on the floor.

>> Edmund Viall: Yeah, exactly. Sticky floors. And the music and

the performance was so transportive, you know, it

really took you somewhere. And I think we both, as

Rosie said, we both kind of dreamt of a place

where that sort of music would find its home and

would kind of fall in with everything else, with

the atmosphere, with the drinks, with the menu and

all that kind of thing. And as Rose said, that's

kind of where the kind of germ of night, uh, was.

Was laid like that. This idea of a really

authentic experience that kind of harped back to

the times before, like, PA systems, before

gramophones, where, you know, if you were in a,

uh, bar and drinking and there was to be music, it

was someone on the stage with a piano, you know, a

clarinet, uh, or what have you. And I know,

certainly for me, I think for Rosie as well, that

there's something about that kind of those

scratchy old records. You know, the Billie

Holidays, the Betsy Smiths, the. The, uh, Count

Basies. That. It. To me, it takes me away just to

listen to it. And so, you know, Nightjar's kind of

like, where. Where does it take us to?

>> Susan Schwartz: So you had this idea, but then you said after

university, people get regular jobs.

>> Roisin Stimson: I do what all people who, you know, do history of

art did that dream of when I went to work at an

auction house and I went. I sort of moved up in

management there. But I was maybe there for about

three and a half years before I decided to go and

work with, uh, artists. No, actually, at that

point we decided to, uh, do Nightjar, didn't we?

Well, what would become Nightjar?

>> Susan Schwartz: So what now? It opened in 2010 because it's its

15th anniversary, but kind of how many years

before that it was?

>> Edmund Viall: 08 when we decided, if we're not going to do it

now, we're never going to do it.

>> Roisin Stimson: What year did you start working after university?

2004. 2005. I had been working since 2004.

>> Edmund Viall: 04. No. Yeah.

>> Roisin Stimson: Oh, yeah. So 2003, I left a year before him. So,

uh, I had become kind of disenchanted with

working. Christie's is a bit like, well, once

you've worked here, where do you go? And then we

just said to each other, why? And Edmund was

working at Freud Communications.

>> Edmund Viall: And then, yeah, so they're kind of a corporate.

Well, they're a communication specialist. And I

was in the corporate department. Um, very

interesting job. Not, uh, one that I particularly

found, I didn't find particularly fulfilling. And

so I think in 2006 I moved to do Teach first,

which is like Teach for America in the UK. So I

went to be a teacher and learn that, uh, on the

job for a couple of years. And the idea is it's

like, tends to put graduates or recent graduates

into really challenging school situations to try

and be inspired or be inspired and give education

at the very sharp end to go. And so I did that for

two years. And at the end of that, I think having

worked very, very hard, I kind of felt like, wow,

this is, you know, if it's going to get this

intense, then we should probably be putting this

amount of effort into our own dreams. Um, and so,

yeah, we kind of bit the bullet at that stage and

thought, right, whatever happens for the next

couple of years, we're going to try and get this

thing off the ground.

>> Roisin Stimson: And then we were like, well, we better get some

jobs part many jobs while we're waiting for this

thing to happen. And then it kind of took a while,

didn't it? And I went to work with art, helping

artists make work for a publicly funded

organization and also did a, uh, an MA and

creative production for live performance. Because,

you know, the whole live performance thing was new

to me, like programming at all. And Edmund went to

work at Shoreditch House to learn bartender.

>> Edmund Viall: So I wanted to know. Know a little bit about what

actual proper hospitality. And so I've worked in

pubs and, and that sort of thing. Yeah,

previously. Uh, so I had, I had an idea I knew

that I enjoyed serving people, but we wanted to

bring this to a high level. So I went to work in

say Haus group to kind of see the best and the

worst of what hospitality can be. Also did a

little bit supply teaching on the side.

>> Susan Schwartz: Obviously it didn't put you off, which is good.

>> Edmund Viall: No, I think. Yeah, yeah. When, when it comes to

opening a bar, especially when you uh, wear.

Looking back, we were absolutely total angenue.

Like we had very, very little idea of what we were

doing. And you know, finding the right site can

take a very, very long time. And you know, once

you found the site, actually negotiating with the

landlord and you know, getting all of your ducks

in a row. So yeah, the process probably took the

best part of two years.

>> Susan Schwartz: Were there certain bars that you absolutely loved

in London that you, you were inspired by or did

you have that vision already?

>> Edmund Viall: Yeah, yeah.

>> Roisin Stimson: What do you think? I mean, I think we, for my, my

purposes, I mean we liked going out and eating and

drinking cocktails and things, but we weren't. I

wasn't connected into the scene, you know, we just

had for my book. It was just this was a place that

didn't exist that we wanted to create. Um, and so

I think uh, I was pretty green at that point.

>> Edmund Viall: Yeah, me too. I mean there are a few bars, uh,

that are still around now. So for example, like

Freud, which I think is still got a little

basement cocktail then. Yeah, that was a place

that felt very, very cool. And then as we got

close to actually making it happen and started

trying to leverage what contacts we did have in

the drinks industry, we were taken to places like

Montgomery Place and Montgomery Place, which at

the time was really iconic bar El Gamion. Of

course another place was around back then.

>> Roisin Stimson: Milk and Honey.

>> Edmund Viall: Milk and honey, of course. So you know, we did get

a little bit of a baptism, uh, into uh, a lounge

bohemia. That's another one I think is still open

as well.

>> Susan Schwartz: But you know, it's so funny you should say that.

That is one of when I first started getting. And

even though I loved going to bars all the time,

someone booked that for their birthday and I was

just blown away. And yes, I do walk by it

sometimes and I'm m talking like early 2000. I

don't even know when it opens like obviously to

between 2008 and 2010 because you guys were there

too. It's a long time ago.

>> Susan Schwartz: And they were. I remember one drink was candy

floss.

>> Susan Schwartz: You know, the guy was really, really creative.

>> Edmund Viall: Yeah, yeah, right. Yeah, he's still around doing

like, cocktail tasting menus and experiences and

stuff like that, which is, you know, quite a

testament his creativity.

>> Susan Schwartz: Did you think because you're number one, I have to

give a shout out. We've just had the top 500 bars

and you are in the top 100, number 71, and your

other bar is number 92. And considering you

started long ago to be in that top 100, I mean,

congratulations. It's a testament to what you've

done. But your cocktails, obviously, for being on

this list and lists, uh, there's. I could, like

the whole show could be about me listing how many

awards you guys have won, but that maybe I'm

moving too far ahead. But the, you know, the

cocktails themselves and the quality of cocktails.

Was that something that you kind of thought of,

uh, found yourself thinking about while at, uh,

Shoreditch House? They have to be at a certain

level.

>> Edmund Viall: Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, there was a.

There was a good level of cocktails at Shortage

House. They tend to be aimed at quite a wide

audience. But back in those times, 2008, 2009, I

think the sort of. The vintage cocktail revival

was in full swing. You know, people were finding

books out there that dated back 100 years, 120

years. And, you know, that kind of full spectrum

of cocktail history was really, uh, opening up to

people. And I think we found that we got some of

those things like Ted Hayes vintage Spirit of

Cotton cocktails and in Buy by Dave Wondridge and

yeah, these kind of like seminal books that kind

of opened up cocktail history were very inspiring

to us.

>> Roisin Stimson: Yeah, exactly. We were looking for someone who

could sort of deliver all of that. And then, um, I

don't want to jump too far into it, but we on one

of our trips around London trying out cocktail

bars and things, we were, um, introduced to Marion

Beck, who was our first bar manager. And then he

really raised the game. I mean, he took the brief,

he.

>> Edmund Viall: Blew the doors off, you could say.

>> Roisin Stimson: Yeah, one of our chief skills, actually, and maybe

any entrepreneur is finding great talent and

bringing them on board. Yeah, uh, keeping them on

board. And yeah, we've had lots of incredibly

talented. I mean, you know, we're in the. That's

what we're in the business of, is managing

incredibly talented people. And he was the first.

>> Edmund Viall: Yeah, I mean, I think, yeah, the initial brief,

the menu is the same concept that it is now, which

is like a trip through cocktail history, you know,

taking you all the way back to pre Prohibition

Derry Thomas era, uh, and before to the present

age. And so that was the idea. You always have

these little sections, like an anthology. But I

think at the time, I think our idea would be.

Would have been to cleave a little bit closer to

the original recipes. And it was Mariana's like,

yeah, that's fine. But what if we reimagine these

drinks? You know, what if we put in homemade

ingredients that give them a unique touch and

have. Marion is the king of the garnish.

>> Susan Schwartz: Yeah, the garnishes were very famous. They still

are very famous.

>> Edmund Viall: Exactly. Uh, and so, you know, just. Just putting

that extra layer of experience on top of them,

which I think really helped to set us apart in

those early years.

>> Roisin Stimson: Yeah.

>> Susan Schwartz: And. And with the music. Talk me through even

finding all the.

>> Susan Schwartz: People, you know, is there a massive.

>> Susan Schwartz: Amount or you have to do a lot of research into,

you know, trying to find people, or was it just

like, oh, my God, there's a place now so all of

these acts can find. Finally have a home?

>> Roisin Stimson: Well, yeah, no, you do actually have to put quite

a lot of legwork into it. But then, uh, like

anything, you know, once you've sort of got done

that, then it starts to bear fruit. And so there

were lots of places that were open around then

that aren't now. Um, I'm thinking of Last days of

Decadence down in Shoreditch and Proud Cabaret

and, uh, Volupte. Yeah. Uh, where they were kind

of these alternative styles of. I mean, we were

thinking about cabaret back then as well, because

that was part of the old scene in the 20s and 30s.

So we were looking at all different types of acts.

Uh, and then. And also Ronnie's upstairs, the kind

of fringe places. And so we just went to those

gigs and introduced ourselves and met people. And

then once you've got a flow of people, then word

gets around and you get introduced. And sometimes

you'll see a band, a guy that you know from one

band turn up in another. That happens a lot

because actually what we do, this sort of vintage

popular music, is pretty small scene actually, of

very dedicated, passionate and creative people.

Um, so everyone passes on, you know, the word. And

we love music. We grew up in musical families. We

prize it very highly. But different stars.

Edmund's father and mum are into. He had classical

musicians, professional musicians in his, uh,

lineage. We're very much popular Irish music and

country music in my family, playing all the time.

>> Edmund Viall: Meet in the middle of a jazz.

>> Roisin Stimson: Yeah. And so we, you know, it's. We come from

different worlds musically, but we have great

respect for Musicians, the hours of work it takes

to get that good, to be able to perform. We treat

people well, including our musicians, and then

that, that bears fruit, really. People keep coming

back and um, passing the word on.

>> Edmund Viall: Yeah. And I think Rosie's not giving herself

enough credit in terms of building up the roster

of musicians. Big job at the beginning.

>> Roisin Stimson: And I've had great people join, you know, people

who've been in general management who then come to

help in events. And a, uh, girl I'm thinking of

now at the moment, Natalia, has been brilliant and

there's a new girl helping us, Mimi. So, you know,

they're team effort really at this stage.

>> Edmund Viall: Yeah, it's a small world, the vintage jazz

revision scene in London. So like a lot of people

play in each other's bands and I think if word

gets out that there's a place that is good to play

is going to treat you fairly and pay you properly.

>> Susan Schwartz: Yeah.

>> Edmund Viall: Then you know that quite quickly you start to get

inquiries and to be.

>> Roisin Stimson: Treated nicely and respectfully and all those sort

of things. So, you know.

>> Susan Schwartz: Now let's go. Before there was a reputation like

that, when you're opening these doors in 2010, did

you have like six months worth of people on hold

to play just in case it worked? I mean, what. When

you jumped in, you know, what was it like? Tell me

about that experience.

>> Roisin Stimson: Ah, back through the summer, 15 years. I, um,

think that we, I think that probably we did what

everyone does is over program it and then like, oh

God, we don't have enough people, you know,

because we run a cover charge base where you.

Which is an American, uh, formula. Actually. We'd

been to New York to understand how people managed,

you know, these kind of, uh, live music gigs and

things. And there were lots of different stuff.

One was a, um, you pay $20, you have a drink that

pays for the band and then, you know. And it's a

two drink minimum or something.

>> Edmund Viall: Yeah, it's like Vinny Vanguard.

>> Roisin Stimson: Yeah, exactly. So that. Because nowhere else

really did it like that. Uh, it was either a

lounge bar where the music or like a hotel bar

where the music is paid for, so.

>> Edmund Viall: Or Roddy's where you've got to be completely

quiet.

>> Roisin Stimson: Yeah.

>> Edmund Viall: You know, pay 45, 50, 60, 70 quid for a ticket.

And it's all about music and everything else is

like an afterthought.

>> Roisin Stimson: So that was a new, new way of doing things. And.

And so there's a bit of spoon feeding people

initially because they're like, what is this? We

don't really know what this is. But we over

programmed it then we didn't have enough people

coming in obviously because it was a new bar. And

then you're like, cancel fume, move things around,

whatever. So I think from memory we had people on

Thursday, Friday, Saturday initially, and that was

reasonably busy. And then later as the, the demand

grew and we knew that we could pay people, we put

people on through the week. So yeah, I think we,

it was steady, steady growth really.

>> Susan Schwartz: Did you find that there was, there were people

from the beginning? Did people know about you?

>> Roisin Stimson: I think I remember there being a big, great press

night, lots of height, you know, a great first two

nights or something and then third night is like

not as busy and you're like. And certainly I

remember uh, our GM at that time, um, Becky, who

also got on to work in um, music programming in

London and things. She, she would do a Tuesday

night by herself on the floor. And so it can't

have been, it must have been about 30 people to.

>> Edmund Viall: Do the nights off by ourselves as well.

>> Roisin Stimson: Oh yeah, we used to do them as well. Sorry. I mean

in the first year we worked outrageous amount of

hours. But then I think after, I think probably

after year one. A year, you know, every bar needs

about a year for critical mass. Maybe a bit longer

at the moment after year one, I think and, and we

got, I think we were named in class, weren't we?

>> Edmund Viall: Yeah, we won the best new bar in class awards and

a couple of other things. I think there was just a

bit of, a bit of hype around us started to build.

>> Roisin Stimson: Yeah.

>> Edmund Viall: Um, and I think it's actually much better for hype

to build six to eight months in rather than just

as you're opening because yeah, you know, even the

most m. Seasoned operator is going to make a lot

of mistakes in their first few weeks or months of

opening a bar. Like, you know, there's every new

site brings new problems and new things you

haven't thought about. So I think in some ways

that was timed quite well because it, it meant

that when people started coming down in their

droves, we were relatively ready to accommodate

them.

>> Roisin Stimson: Yeah.

>> Edmund Viall: And get the drinks out fast and make sure the

experience really good. So yeah, it became quite a

few years of just being completely packed every

night. Right.

>> Roisin Stimson: Yeah.

>> Susan Schwartz: Uh, and the cocktail menu, were there any

surprises like oh, this cocktail is so much more

popular than we thought it would be or oh, no

one's drinking this one, you know. Did you,

throughout these years have you seen certain

things come and go drinks wise?

>> Edmund Viall: I mean, I Think we've always kind of done a wide

range of really fun, interesting drinks and so um,

I'm trying to think about drinks that have been

misses that we would might have not expected. I

think whenever you. In the days of MARION we had

48 drink menus so there was certainly some drinks

um, uh, that didn't quite capture people's

imagination or didn't get, you know, didn't get

ordered quite as much.

>> Susan Schwartz: That's a big menu.

>> Roisin Stimson: Yes.

>> Edmund Viall: Oh my God.

>> Roisin Stimson: I mean everything was homemade and this.

>> Susan Schwartz: Huge menu of signature cocktails and if you think

if someone is and all the other people who are

just ordering like could I have a martini or

something?

>> Roisin Stimson: Yeah.

>> Edmund Viall: Unbelievable. Yeah, I mean we have very little

proper prep space. Yeah. Everything was done at LA

MNU in those days. Very little pre batching, very

little storage. Um, looking back I think the only

way that it was made to work was by everyone

working themselves to exhaustion.

>> Roisin Stimson: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, those were the. Yeah, it was

uh, lots of practices like well being and you

know, carefully managed rotors and all that sort

of stuff has come into play. I'm always surprised

by how one of our top uh, performing drinks and we

keep, we keep it on for this reason is the London

Mule which is you know, essentially a gin mule. A

long refreshing drink. And I think it says

something about people's tastes, right that

sometimes they're coming just for you know, what

they know and they love. And there are classics

for a reason and m, that's sort of quite a

comforting thing. And then people also like this

sort of show stopping ones like drinking from a

shell with the sort of things that feel quite

sensual and, and make great pictures.

>> Edmund Viall: I mean there's four drinks that have more or less

in one iteration rather been on the menu for the

whole 15 years. There's the London Mule that Rosie

mentioned. There's the barrel aged Zombie which is

not only very boozy and very fun but has got this

kind of reformented pineapple juice which gives

this lovely kind of like caramelized deep flavor.

We have the Toronto which is a kind of old

fashioned twist, a little bit of Fernet which

obviously bartenders love to have a bit of fun

presentation. And then the last one is maybe the

Samurai which is a Japanese whiskey based drink. A

little bit of a riff on a whiskey sour type type

thing that we've had in one iteration the whole

time. And I think that's for me that's the thing

that really has hit home over the years is that

actually we innovate and we change A lot to get

through 15 years. What's really important is

iteration rather than innovation. If you focus

everything in being the most creative, the most

innovative bar, which, you know, Nitron might have

been said to be back in 2011 or 2012, at some

point, someone's going to come along and be more

even innovative and more creative than you in the

eyes of the world. And then all of a sudden, the

line lights off you. So in terms of longevity and

lasting, I think what we found over the years is

it's best to focus on the things that people come

back for.

>> Susan Schwartz: Uh, 100%. There's a couple sayings, if it ain't

broke, why fix it? There's that. But also, if you

don't change, you die. So you've obviously gotten

the right balance of that to still not only be

here through Covid, but 15 years and still getting

awarded, you know, so that you obviously have such

an instinct for these things. But I would be

remiss. I know we're talking about Nightjar. It's

all about Nightjar's 15th anniversary. Because I

loved Oriole. Both in the old space and in the new

space, you have this wonderful bar. It's going

well. Why were you crazy enough to start another

one?

>> Roisin Stimson: But businesses sort of take on a life of their

own. And we essentially, we had loads of very

qualified professional people in management who

were keen to stay with the company. And so that

gave us the, uh, you know, the bare bones of being

able to start something else. And so it felt like

a natural fit. We didn't, at that time, feel that

another Nightjar was, uh, what was needed. And so

we started looking for another venue. And then

once you find the venue, it kind of has a feel of

its own. And so we sort of started scouting around

for a different bird and a different concept and

things. And that was really how it happened. I

mean, I think we started looking pretty early,

maybe two years in, and it was another five years

after opening. It was 2015 when we opened.

>> Edmund Viall: Yeah, I mean, I think taking one's time over these

things is. Is good because, yeah, we looked at a

lot of different opportunities. And I think, you

know, there's two things there. As Rosie said,

there's the fact that if you've got great people

and they're kind of hitting the top of the ceiling

in one organization, you kind of want to give them

the opportunity. But also, I think probably we are

kind of entrepreneurs. And, like, once something

is going well and there's cash being generated,

the question is, what next and, you know, at that

point we were in hospitality. You know, go on

next. And so the logical progression is to find

another. Get to find a new project to work on. Uh,

and so, yeah, Oriole came about like that. And we

wanted. Yeah, obviously Nightjar is a sort of very

sort of vertical, linear historical theme. And

with Oriole, we wanted to kind of make it more of

a geographical thing, you know, about exploration

and with drinks that rather than being inspired by

time, to be inspired by place. So the idea with

the Oriole menu is that, you know, the core of

each drink is a certain part of the world, whether

that's the ingredient or the glassware, or the

cultural practices that inspire the drink. And

that's how they recreate the menus at Oriole.

>> Susan Schwartz: When you heard that there was a space in

Smithfield Market, were you like, oh, my God,

that's so cool? You know, we've got. We've got to

see it because it was, uh. Yeah, it was sad that,

that they closed Smithfield Market to redo it. But

it must have been so cool when you first saw it.

>> Roisin Stimson: And we'd been to New York and been around the meat

pack. We'd looked at a venue in the meatpacking

district. And I think that probably subconsciously

we were like, oh, the meatpacking district of

London, Great. But also it was premium free. It

had been a historical bar. It felt very much like

London.

>> Susan Schwartz: Oh, it had been a bar beforehand.

>> Roisin Stimson: Had been a pub. Well, it was called the Cock

Tavern. A very, um, kind of legendary place where

the kind of painters of the 1950s, Lucian Freud

and his peers, and would kind of cross paths with

the meat market workers who were coming off shift

and also the city boys who were. Who were having a

breakfast before going into the city. So it was a

real cross section.

>> Edmund Viall: Yeah, it's USP because it opened at 6am yeah. So

you would get that real kind of small, uh, guns,

board of different people at six o'. Clock. You

know, people kind of, uh, piling out fabric and

looking for a last drink. And like Rosie said, the

city boys, the traders, the cabbies.

>> Roisin Stimson: But by the time we'd taken. I mean, we inherited

that license, but by the time we took it on, it

had been, you know, those. The glory days had

been, were well and truly over. So it felt

exciting to give it new life.

>> Edmund Viall: I don't think we quite knew what we were biting

off when we took on the site. Then when we went

in, we just bought this huge site with loads of

back of the House, all the stuff. We didn't have a

nightjar and we thought, wow, how amazing. Look at

this great canvas that we can build up. But I

think, yeah, what you don't realize is that, you

know, a big, empty, stripped out site, it's very,

very expensive.

>> Susan Schwartz: Very daunting, I'm sure.

>> Edmund Viall: Uh, exactly. It takes a long time and a lot of

money to get it up and running.

>> Roisin Stimson: I think we were undaunted. It was only once it was

ready and we opened it. We were like, wow, this is

really very big. And now we've got to fill it with

people. It lived there for seven years until we

were unfortunately, uh, asked to move along and

make, um, way for the Museum of London, which is

Londoners. You feel like. I'm happy with that.

That's okay. But, um, uh, it took time to get

going. But by the time, you know, we were asked to

leave, it was, it.

>> Edmund Viall: Was in full swing.

>> Roisin Stimson: Full swing and one of, um, our best performing

bars. So it was very bittersweet.

>> Susan Schwartz: Oh, I'm sure it was bittersweet for me too, uh,

being one of my favorite places. Now, Edmund, you

said something about. Oh, yes, I guess we are in

hospitality. I just want to return to that. You

just. That was kind of a little comment that you

just said. But, you know, do you, you obviously

you are. It's 15 years since you are in

hospitality. Do you like, pinch yourself every day

going, yes, it worked. We're so happy. Is it

everything that you thought it would be? I mean,

that's a big question. I know that's a big

question. To put you on the spot like that.

>> Edmund Viall: Sorry, on one side, absolutely. Like, it's been a

journey, been full of joy and fulfillment and, you

know, making people happy, showing them a good

time, accolades, travel.

>> Roisin Stimson: I don't think we could have imagined just how

amazing, uh, an experience it would. It could have

been. I think, you know, we weren't really plugged

into this whole world of drinks and brands and

trips and all of that stuff and the kind of

community of people. So in terms of that and also

the people who've worked for us that we. And who

are our clients, all of that has been tremendous.

>> Edmund Viall: Uh, so, yeah, I think that that's one thing we

didn't see going in.

>> Roisin Stimson: Yeah.

>> Edmund Viall: Uh, but also, you know, over 15 years, and I think

this 15 years in particular of history has been

kind of full of black swans, Brexit, Covid,

Ukraine, big geopolitical humdingers that have

changed people's habits, have changed, their

finances have changed. Our uh, workforce and those

been very challenging things to navigate. And, and

at the same time as well, the way the marketing

happens, you know, the way that, you know, in 0, 8

and 9, 10, you know, social media was still in its

infancy, you know, traditional present

communications was still. Yeah, the way that you

would market a bar of hospitality. And so I feel

like although we've had constants that we've kept

the same throughout, I think have kept those bars

going and kept them top of tree or close to it,

we've also had to adapt a lot in that time.

>> Roisin Stimson: Too, particularly in the last five years.

>> Susan Schwartz: Are there any specifics you can share about how

you've had to adapt?

>> Roisin Stimson: Um, I mean, I think Covid was just a series of

adapting to different rules almost daily about

numbers of people, whether you were open or

closed, how many people could come in, lots of

pivoting as they like to say. But then I think,

you know, the knock on effect of COVID and Brexit

and everything that's happened since is that

there's been behavioral change, people uh, working

from home, uh, which obviously impacts how people

socialize, the order of spontaneity around being,

uh, socializing and also the cost of living

crisis, people not having uh, the money to spend

on going out. And I think cocktails are one of the

first things that don't make the list, uh,

because, you know, people have to prioritize.

>> Edmund Viall: I think one thing that we've changed a little bit

is sort of the management philosophy. And there's

two reasons. The first is I think, you know, when

we opened the model of people who came to work for

us, they were coming to work with very motivated,

very, very skilled people. But also just, just as

in, in many, many kitchens with the great chef,

people are sort of. Yeah, there's an atmosphere

where people are uh, working very, very hard, but

also kind of maybe being driven a little bit. So

there was, I think there was that that we felt had

to change, especially as time goes on. And you

know, I think hospitality in many ways is a much

better place to work than it was in 2010 because I

think people have, are not afraid to ask, uh, for

better conditions and you know, more fairness and

better work life balance. And also as time has

gone on and we've had, you know, over the course

of Nitro's life, we've had three kids and we have

had other projects and business interests that

have taken up some of our time. So you know, it's

been a case of having a team that's more, takes

more Responsibility. People stepping up with Swift

and Bobby Amir, for example, took on employee

shareholders who really has a sense of ownership.

And that's a model that we're replicating across

the other bars as well. Now I think that's a real

thing because I think, you know, when you've got

five different bars, you can't give that level of

attention that we did in those first years of

nyjar, where every detail was under our, uh,

supervision. So I think that's something that we

adapted quite a lot. And now I think marketing as

well, like we spoke about when we first started,

it was all about Facebook.

>> Susan Schwartz: Yes, of course.

>> Edmund Viall: Uh, and then Instagram came along and obviously

Instagram is still a big thing. You know, I think

nowadays you've got to look across all platforms,

got to think about your SEO, you've got to think

about deploying Google Ads in the right way at the

right time, all this kind of stuff. Like it's a

whole suite of things you've got to manage that we

couldn't have even imagined, um, yeah, back in the

early days. So that's another thing that we, we've

had to adapt.

>> Roisin Stimson: We're like two, three generations on now. So, you

know, we're like marketing to people who are

generally much younger than us.

>> Edmund Viall: Yeah, younger, probably a bit less interested in

the sort of, the geeky, uh, sort of like booze and

cocktails, more into, like, experiences as a

whole. I think that's, that's definitely something

that we've seen changed and I think, you know, in

2010, 2010 was a time of cocktail enthusiasts and

I think that we still get all those in cocktail

enthusiasts coming through the door, but they're

all like 10, 15 years older. So, you know, how to

engage with a new generation of drinkers and

revelers is a question we're asking ourselves all

the time.

>> Susan Schwartz: Well, I think you've answered my last question,

which was what do you see for the future? But

it's, I guess, engaging with the Gen Zs and

whatever is coming along the way, you know, and

how to bring them into this world that we love and

even interest them into the music that we love.

>> Roisin Stimson: Yeah.

>> Edmund Viall: Yes, yes, I think so. I mean, I read a report

recently that said that, you know, in the last

three or four years, you know, something like £86

billion has been wiped off the value of the big

five, you know, Pello, Ricard, Diageo, they are

noticing that they've got a challenge on their

hands as well, uh, in terms of engaging with the

new generations who, who look at experiences in a

slightly different way. I mean, I think, you know,

luckily there are still people out there who, at a

younger age who see what we do and it really

chimes with them and we're very lucky for that.

But I think certainly ways of connecting with

those people and getting them through the door and

getting them coming back is going to be a big

question that we ask ourselves in coming years.

>> Susan Schwartz: Well, you've been doing stuff right for 15 years.

I don't doubt that for the next 15 years you will

also be doing it right. Plus you have some little

ones who are growing up and they can say, mom,

dad, uh, no, we don't like it that way. We want it

this way. So hopefully they can be sounding boards

as well.

>> Roisin Stimson: Our 12 year old does try to give us business

advice.

>> Edmund Viall: Yes, that's interesting. Although, to be honest,

we should probably be in the. He should at least

be able to make some good Bloody Mary by now.

>> Roisin Stimson: Yeah, I know. We've really been quite sure.

>> Edmund Viall: Uh, you know, they. Morning.

>> Susan Schwartz: Wait, wait, wait. Was that what you were doing for

your dad?

>> Edmund Viall: Actually, I did. I was, I was, I was called upon

to butter from an early age for sure. And they can

do that. They're quite good at that.

>> Roisin Stimson: They are quite good, yeah.

>> Edmund Viall: Um, but, yeah, cocktail making skills. No, that's

not something. It was actually, I think what

inspired me to think that there's a scene in Mad

Men where, where Don Draper's, uh, daughter brings

him a Bloody Mary in bed. Um, so I think, uh,

yeah, I think if he has any interest in entering

the family business, then it's probably quite a

good start.

>> Susan Schwartz: Yes. When he's of legal age. Of course. Yes, of

course, of course. Well, thank you so much for

sitting down with me. I really love this chat. I

got to learn so much more about you and it was

great to have you both on the show. So thank you.

>> Roisin Stimson: Thanks for the invitation. We're happy to. Yeah,

nice. Nice to reflect back on all the years and,

uh, everything we've learned. So thank you.

>> Susan Schwartz: Absolutely. And hopefully I'll see you in one of

your bars and we can cheers to the next 15 years.

>> Roisin Stimson: Yes.

>> Edmund Viall: Here's to that.

>> Susan Schwartz: Yeah, here's to that.

>> Susan Schwartz: I so want to thank Rosie and Edmund for joining me

on the program. Of course. Our cocktail of the

week is a Nightjar classic. Our cocktail of the

week is the Toronto, created by Marion Beck for

their original menu. According to Rosie and

Edmond, it is possibly the only drink on the menu

that has barely changed in terms of spec since

they opened their menu version uses Woodford

Reserve bourbon. They use maple syrup infused with

coffee and pecan in a tribute to the drink's

Canadian moniker. The fanciful garnish is also a

functional one, a cloud of candy floss or cotton

candy smoked with orange blossom. It can either be

eaten side by side with a cocktail or added bit by

bit as an interesting sweetener to balance out the

bright, bitter Fernet Branca. So add the following

ingredients to a mixing 50 milliliters of Woodford

Reserve bourbon, 12.5 milliliters of Fernet Branca

and 7.5 mils of maple syrup infused with roasted

coffee beans and pecans. Add ice and then stir,

stir, stir when it's chilled, then strain it into

a rocks glass. If you have any cotton candy or

candy floss, then garnish it with that. You'll

find this recipe in all the cocktails of the week

at A Lush Life. Venice is so nice when you don't

have to work.

>> Susan Schwartz: If you live for lush life, then.

>> Susan Schwartz: Make sure you head out to the bars you love and

order a drink. And Lush Life is always and will be

forever. Produced by Evo, Terra and Simpler Media

Productions, which leads me to say the wise words

of Oscar Wilde all things in moderation, including

moderation, and always drink responsibly. Next

time we head to Northern Kentucky for the last

episode of 2025 and until then, bottom.