This series deals with themes of violence, loss of life, grief, trauma and mental health. The content may not be suitable for younger listeners. Kia ora I'm Alex Mason. And I'm Mitchell Alexander. Welcome to Season One of Unclassified, a series where we bring you firsthand tales from those who served during New Zealand's 20 year deployment to Afghanistan. Today, we're joined by Chaplain Class 2 James Molony to talk about the ongoing effects he's seen over the last decade amongst those who deployed to Afghanistan, how a person's faith is tested in a war zone, and the role of chaplaincy in Defence. Chaplain Class 2 James Molony deployed to Afghanistan in 2012, as part of the New Zealand provincial reconstruction team known as CRIB 20. As a chaplain, often referred to as a Padre, his job is to offer counsel, support and pastoral care to members of the New Zealand Defence Force and their families and to support their wellbeing while on deployment and at home.

During his time in Afghanistan, James provided guidance to the contingent of around 150 personnel as they grappled with the sudden deaths of five of their comrades. He was also involved in a range of community projects, including helping to run English language classes for local Afghans. Thanks for joining us today, James.

Nice to be here. Thanks, Team.

So just to kick us off, could you cast your mind back to 2012, two New Zealand soldiers on your deployment had been killed in the ferocious battle of Baghak. And then just two weeks later, three more Kiwis died when an improvised explosive device destroyed their vehicle. Can you tell us about the moment you learned about these latest fatalities?

Like most people, it's... you remember events like that in pretty fine detail. We made a decision early on, the chaplain provides social, spiritual support to people so it's best to be around when people need you. And we made the decision for me to spend a lot of time at Ramero, which was one of the forward operating bases in Bamiyan. And so we're in some sort of meeting in the main Mess hall when when a person came to the door and to say, look, there's been an IED. And we've got 3 KIAs.

So what was your immediate response?

Firstly, a sense of, oh, no, here we go again, it had been a quite a dangerous tour already. We had already had two people killed, we'd lost several who are wounded. Every day, the guys are finding IEDs. And there's a sense of the threat level had escalated and was going to remain high for the tour. I'd been involved with some of the debriefing with a psychologist who had also flown across to support us in theatre. And some of our chats about it being what's called a critical incident was that actually, we're doing one critical incident, but we could have many more before the end of this deployment. So we're quite aware of that. And you do kick into how to support people mode, what's needed first was the safety of the remaining team, and then working out how we're going to continue to support going forward.

And what does that immediate care response look like when you're in a theatre of war?

Well, everyone's got a job to do. So to start with, I guess it was the team on the ground. So securing the site, making sure nothing else is going to happen, even down to getting support to the IED site. Even that's quite dangerous, because the road still might have IEDs on it, our force is getting smaller by that stage. So the ability to keep people safe, was getting more difficult. So it's working out what needs to happen at the scene, and then extracting those people back safely to an operating base. Collecting up the remains of our deceased, the mortuary affairs component has to all happen. There's quite practical things that have to happen in the moment, before you can really consider for long term care.

How much experience had you had with deployments? Was Afghanistan, your first?

Afghanistan was my second deployment. The first one was to the Solomon Islands in 2008- 2009. And it was a very different tour, there was at the tail end of a conflict where it wasn't very dangerous. And so as a chaplain, the it was more or less trying to help out people from being bored. So for instance, we arranged to get a platoon through a diving course, because bored soldiers is probably going to cause trouble at some point. So it was more I wouldn't say annoying welfare issues, but nothing significant or serious with their tour. Whereas with a place like Afghanistan, and and because it's a high threat all the time, so you're always at a high level of awareness that you're in a dangerous environment no matter what you're doing, including teaching English, including visiting an orphanage, or even a simple visit to a bazaar can be a dangerous activity. So you're very aware of that. So it kind of brings everything into quite a sharp focus around what you do and how you go about things.

Did you know what to expect before you went over there? Did you realise beforehand how different it would be to the Solomon Islands?

I had an idea. At one point I remember sitting in what's called a sangar, so it's just a fortified position in the operating base, but it's reasonably isolated, and just thinking in a quiet moment, how did I get here? I'm a Baptist youth pastor from Whitianga, join the military thinking it'd be a great adventure. And it is a great adventure. But there is a sense of well, I'm on proper out of my depth here. But the training is quite robust. My work and chaplaincy on the ground in Linton camp and other places had prepared me well for tragedy because you walk alongside people, and difficult or tragic circumstances. So that's reasonably aware. And it's quite a different environment operate and it's hard to prepare someone for until they're in it. Previous tours, there had been danger. I think we've been overseas knowing that we're getting nearer to the end of the mission, so likely be drawing down permission following ours. And likely, it'll be more dangerous because of that reason. So there was that sence across that it was likely going to be more dangerous.

You have briefly touched on this. But for people who are unfamiliar with the role of a military chaplain, what is it that you do on a day to day basis?

That's a good question and it actually took me a good couple of years to figure out because I was a minister in Upper Hutt and I was basically running a church and I got to know military people coming along to the church and and also you help out with welfare in your community quite a bit anyway. And one of those people ended up suggesting that I consider chaplaincy as a thing. I didn't even know the military employed ministers to be honest. But it seemed like a great fit for my personality. And what I like about Christian ministry as well, which is take a good, welfare skill set, into what is a regular secular work environment, and you apply those skills, the gist of it is the military can be quite a rigid sort of a structure. The chaplain can provide a reasonably safe place for a person to talk to that's outside the chain of command, but still a part of the culture and environment. And to talk to about any problem under the sun. So not, you don't have to be religious, it doesn't matter what your background, you can come and talk to a chaplain and it's, you know, it's going to be in confidence and reasonably safe. There are some caveats, we're not going to keep confidence if someone's going to hurt themselves, or if they're going to hurt someone else, or be risk to an operation, we can help them navigate that and then pull on other resources as we need. And I think that's what the military most appreciates us for. We also do prayers on on parade for people, so uphold some of the spiritual values of defence, we're kaitiaki of that, the guardians of it to a degree, we work with people of all faiths supporting them with their spiritual background as well. But Jack of all trades, master of none, but it seems to work. And it's got a long history in Defence.

So when did you actually become a chaplain with defence and what was for you the key thing that drew you to joining the New Zealand Defence Force?

I have a natural curiosity and sense of adventure. And I'd been in a church for several years working as a minister. And I remember walking down a corridor and thinking, I might need something a bit more when this came along, and it had the right mix of the Christian ministry side of it, the helping people, which is what drew me to ministry in the first place, as well as adventure. I guess that's what drew me in.

That must be quite unique, doing what you do for a military organisation?

You work as part of teams, though. So in our roles to support command and the welfare of their people, right, so command, take responsibility for all aspects of welfare of their soldiers, sailors and aviators. So we support them as part of that, it is a unique role, but you're definitely part of a team. And I think they get better outcomes and better support for people.

And what place do you think chaplaincy holds in the military world?

It's a unique, but very privileged place, I'd say, you know that you want to walk into a unit, I don't go there just as myself. It's, I'm carrying the history of others who have gone before me and their reputations as well. So we we build off others in the trust that's been built up and against the core values or competencies for a chaplain would be, you need to be well known, so be out and about mucking around with the unit, to go into PT being a part of unit life, whatever that may be.

PT being physical training?

Training, yes,

So you have to be as fit as the other soldiers?

You have to be reasonably fit. You don't have to keep up with everyone. I mean, I'm nearly 50 now, so I'm not going to keep up with the 25 year old but I'll still go to PT and keep my fitness up. And I've got to pass fitness tests like everyone else, but also that's how you get to be known and the idea is you are well known and well trusted, then you can do a good job as a chaplain but those two things would be key to the role.

You mentioned that people don't have to be religious to come and talk to you. And anyone from any background can come seek out the Padre for a bit of support. Is your support based around one faith or do you offer guidance, in a wide range of religions?

I have a working knowledge of a reasonable amount of religions, that's the nature of the role and the interest. I come to this with my faith background and how I view people because of it. And the gist of that is that all people are children of God. So you have intrinsic value just on that. And so if you come to talk to me about a problem, that's the value that I see in you. And that's how I will try to support you, in whatever form that takes. Most times, it's just a talk. So there's a lot of power in listening and being heard. And often a person just doesn't know how to talk about an issue. So they'll turn up and want to talk. And we can help them navigate that and then work out what are some resources that might help and that might be counselling, it might be one of our field psychologists, that might be a social worker, which you also employ, or might just be talking with one of the bosses or a colleague about, hey, this is what I'm going through right now and not sure how to navigate it. That's kind of how it works.

When you're on deployment, what sort of conditions are you working in? So for people who've never been somewhere like Afghanistan, is there a chapel that set up as a facility on base? Or does the local terrain become your chapel? Where are you providing the support?

You make it work wherever you can, I just got a photo from a colleague who's with the training teams in the UK. And he's taken a field service with Ukrainian soldiers that are sitting around a grass paddock, and that that's the only time they could get. So they pulled it together, and he ran a service and they asked him to. One of the things about combat and faith in missions like this, is becomes quite a lot more important. If you have a faith background, and your life's on the line. That's significant. I know there's the cliche saying there's no atheists in a foxhole. But there's actually quite an element of truth for that when, when you're going out on a patrol, and you're not sure if you're going to come back, or if you're going to get injured, faith is quite important. So even a simple thing like a communion service, which we have every Sunday in New Zealand, and I've taken a lot of communion services in my denomination, it's at another level in a place like Afghanistan, with soldiers who have gone out on patrol and not sure how that's going to go. So it's a small contingent who, of the contingent, a small number have a reasonably strong faith background, we ran chapel services every week for those people. And faith's important. I would say that, although not many identify as religious, most have some sort of spiritual background or spiritual understanding. And I guess we can help with it to.

You obviously, help others navigate through hard times and provide guidance to them. What about yourself? Can you tell us about your own faith experience while you were deployed in Afghanistan?

Yes, I can. Tragic events tend to go one of two ways. But every person with a faith background, at some point has to wrestle with suffering, and develop a theology around suffering too. And that can be that I've worked with colleagues with a with a strong faith whose partners have died of cancer, for example, and their faith has been okay. But you say, well, my wife was a good person. Why did this happen to her the why questions are quite a big deal. And some of those questions can't be answered. Faith was an anchor for me while I was across there basically, it's something you can do when you feel like you don't have much control over things. And simple things like spending time praying for the contingent in my downtime, looking for opportunities to talk with people about what's going on and being a reasonably consistent presence around the different operating bases I could get across to, making an effort to go visit where I could, for example, Ramero, and even out to some of the further bases as well or joining in on a patrol, if there was space, and it was, and I wasn't going to be a hindrance to them, I'd go with them. At one point, I had a choice to go visit a group and I didn't have to go, you know, you can make an excuse not to, I've got other work to do or there's no expectation for me to do it. But it was a trip across dangerous roads where any trip out of the base could be with risk across IED roads, the same road where we'd lost troops to an IED. But the scripture that came to my mind making that decision was 'a hired hand runs at the first sign of danger, but you are more than a hired hand'. And I thought I'm not just a hired hand and just pick up my kit and get in the back of the LAV like everyone else, and talk and be jovial and nod off to sleep with the team but to be present with them in ndanger as well.

I guess following on from that, how much was your faith is tested whilst you were in Afghanistan, surrounded by that danger and at times, obviously tragedy?

I didn't see it as a test of faith. So at no point did I think my faith was being tested because of that. I think my character was tested. Resilience was certainly tested. But also, I'm just like everybody else, like I had to work through my own grief, my own reaction to trauma, what that meant for family back home and the whole reintegration with New Zealand. I go through that just like everybody else. It's not an easy reintegration, it's hard to describe to anybody who hasn't been through it, I guess, like parenting or like marriage. I don't think it tested my faith in that way.

So how were you able to help others through that tragedy, whilst you were still going through your own grieving process and your own way?

One way is you don't even know it's so hard until you get back, I think. So you're operating such a high level of stress or adrenaline, you're not really aware of it. But you can set the conditions for things to go better back in New Zealand. So a simple thing like running a memorial service, when our first guys were killed in the battle. So the guys had to come back and basically clean up and be ready to go again, there wasn't much opportunity for downtime, but being able to run a memorial service in theatre, there's an opportunity to pause, to express grief, and to acknowledge the loss the day after. And that's the same for the IED as well down the track. Those things help set the conditions for healing down the track, if you can do that, well, it helps process it or begin process it or set the conditions for processing it. Another avenue is supporting other services. So soldiers are naturally well everyone is naturally suspicious of psychologists, or anybody who can write a report on you, or you're just not sure about it, to a degree, so part of it is helping to demystify that and, and encouraging people to engage with our psych process, that you might not think you need it now. And, and most thought they wouldn't need it then. But down the track, this is important. So try and engage it as best you can. Supporting the psychologists and theatre as well. So they can help. We had a pretty good psychic who was an ex medic, so could relate to people quite well, but just helping for the welfare team, so they're not isolated. And I guess being present, being around keeping those relationships going, knowing that I might need to provide support back in New Zealand for a long time as well.

You obviously talked about a number of situations or one particular situation where you were putting yourself in danger, that it was obviously quite a dangerous environment that you're in generally, when you are the or do you carry arms in order to defend yourself if required, as a chaplain?

Yeah that comes up a fair bit that so we fall under the laws of armed conflict so and we're non combatants, is a status. So we wear a Red Cross. So people think we are medics, but we're non combatants, the same as medics, that can cause a bit of confusion, but you carry a red cross on your patch on your shoulder, you're entitled to carry a weapon to defend yourself, you're not supposed to take part in offensive operations, or even defensive operations in general, but you can defend yourself or others under your care. My decision was to carry a weapon in theatre. Part of that was not so much even for my own safety. But if I want to leave the wire and go on a patrol and there's only four seats in the vehicle, if I don't carry a weapon, that's one area that's not really covered. And that's every chaplain's decision I didn't have to carry a weapon. I could have said, No, I don't want to. But I also wanted to get out and about and be present. So my decision was to carry a rifle, you need to be familiar with weapon systems anyway. So we do the same weapons training as everyone else and even the stand to position. So if there's an attack on a base or something bad happens, everyone knows where to go. But you've got a place to go, and the chaplain's places the med bunker to support the medics or the nursing officer if they're there. Part of this working with people who might come in injured with weapons, you've got to take those weapons and make them safe, or know if a grenade's a problem or not, and how to handle it. So the best way to do that is to be weapons qualified like everyone else.

So how does that feel for you personally, to obviously carry something which is capable of violence when your key purpose over there is to support and nurture faith and peace?

Well, one of the things that I joined for was adventure. And part of that is challenging situations. And I didn't find that too much of a problem. If I'd had to shoot in anger and kill somebody or hurt them, I would have suffered following it, like most people are in that situation suffer. But I'm htere to support soldiers who were asking to do the same thing. So part of my understanding of as I'm going to be present with that challenge as well, as well as our soldiers, so I was happy to carry a rifle, to use it, as I'm allowed to use it within the non combatant guidelines. But I also knew that if it came to that there'd be a cost to that later on.

Did you find you had to fire a weapon at any time in Afghanistan?

No, not in anger, just on the range.

The work of the New Zealand Defence Force over there, it was obviously about much more than engaging with insurgents, and that dangerous element of the work. Personnel were there to help the country's rebuild. Can you tell us a bit about the work that you were involved in, in that capacity?

I think by the time we got there, there was awareness that we're going to be withdrawing from Afghanistan, there was an awareness that the Americans won't be there forever. And even when I taught English to the students, so as you mentioned, we had someone who set up English classes, a chaplain from an earlier rotation. So we teach local university students English, a great way for us to interact and for them to learn a skill set that will actually open the world up as well. Because once you know, English, you can start researching, you can read articles online, there's a lot that comes with it. But when I talk to them about what's most important to you, they would have said security, security is important to us. We don't have security, we don't have anything. So they want to be engineers, they want to be doctors, they want to be nurses, they want to be farmers, and they wanted to train and help their people. But they knew that without security, none of that was going to be possible, which, unfortunately, is what we're seeing in Afghanistan now. The security is not the so the option opportunities for people are far less.

So having that in the back of your mind, that dynamic of knowing that there would be a withdrawal in future. And the security that had been achieved so far was potentially going to disappear. How did you carry out your work over there and engaging with the communities while knowing?

At the time that you were there could you paint a picture for us of what life was like for the locals and what they were like as people to engage with? We had hope. So the big security was partner capacity building. So we lost five soldiers on our tour, the local Defence Force lost more than 20. So that's their police who are training with ours, theor quick reaction force, they took some pretty heavy knocks, in the time we were there, but our guys were working hard to train them so that they could maintain security. And that was the hope that when this all came to an end, the local forces the government, the Afghan military would be able to maintain their own security. Maybe it was a bit optimistic, but that was the hope. Depending on which part of Afghanistan you went to, in Bamiyan, it was very different culture to ours, and interesting, much more, most of the Bible stories in scripture that I was familiar with and trained with, is more suited to Afghan Middle Eastern cultures, than New Zealand culture - shame and honour is a big deal, family roles, relationships are quite important. But in general, people just wanted to send their sons and daughters to school, they wanted to run businesses and build a good society. There was some sense of hope, there was construction going on. There's work going on within university, there was a sense of hope for that. There's a lot of colour around and Bamiyan, the girls will colourful shawls and would talk. The further south you went, that was the same as well, for some aspects of the North, there was less colour, and you wouldn't see many females at all. And that's more the Taliban-aligned areas.

What do you feel were some of your biggest personal achievements while you were deployed in Afghanistan during the work that you were doing?

As difficult it was, I was proud to be a part of it. And I hope I've been able to offer good support during the tour to our soldiers, and also to support coming back to NZ too. Though I know we took some losses back in New Zealand as well. I'd like to think that New Zealand was there for more than a decade. Even a simple thing like visiting the orphanage, so some children have had 10 years of soldiers visiting and interacting with them. And I'd like to think some of our Kiwi attitude has rubbed off and become a part of their culture as well from our time there, I guess that's the hope, and if that's so, then that's great achievement.

So how would you sum up the impact of the New Zealand Defence Forces overall contribution?

Probably not in the way that we would think. So there is the construction that's gone on, and partner projects, they've been significant. So there's no doubt about that. But our relationships have been huge and that's ongoing. So we've seen a lot of interpreters since the fall of Afghanistan and the families and people have worked for us. Now there's a strong Afghan community connected to defence here in New Zealand. That's hope for a lot of people who had a pretty dire situation, back home. And even those left in theatre, I'd still like to think our relationships that we've formed over those years have an ongoing impact and what is now a difficult place for people to live and work.

Well now 10 years on, as you've mentioned, things have changed. The Taliban is in power following the withdrawal of the last allied forces in 2021. What's your response to the suggestion that has been made in the past that the efforts of the New Zealand Provincial Reconstruction Team and the loss of Kiwi soldiers were in vain?

I think that's pretty short sighted and I wouldn't see it their way. We supported a good positive change in Afghanistan. That hasn't ended how we wanted. But we gave it a good shot. Dougie Grant who was killed overseas, there's a story about a conversation he's having with a colleague about this and Afghanistan in a cafe, saying, well, what's the point of being here? And he simply said, well, Afghan kids deserve a chance to, I think that's more how I see it. We tried to give Afghanistan, the people a Bamian a chance, and to help support them in that. And I think it's made quite a positive difference, maybe not overall in the whole of Afghanistan. But to some people, it's made all the difference. And that relationship now is, as part of New Zealand culture, with Afghan communities based here.

Since you've returned from Afghanistan, how much has your experience over there stayed with you? And how have you coped with some of the more difficult things that have stayed with you?

He that's a more difficult question. We had a reunion recently, for our 10 year anniversary of that tour. And it was great actually a reasonably good turnout, some couldn't make it, but a pretty good turnout. Most would say it was difficult actually to make the decision to come back together. Because it brings up emotion and memories and loss that stayed with us all that time. But once you're there, it's fantastic to catch up with people and talk about their experiences. And, and I guess what connects us most hav probably wresteled with the journey, some have been open about it, some haven't. But it would be very difficult to come away from a a time like that without a cost to you personally. In my experience, and I talk about my experience, other people's journeys is there's to share, I probably puttered along reasonably well for a couple of years. But then I got to the point where I wasn't doing as well as I thought, and this is probably common, my wife actually said you need to go and get some help at this point. And even now, 10 years later, of course, it still brings up a lot of emotion and a lot of good memories and a lot of sadness that goes with that for people, people who didn't come back and those who came back injured and how that's affected their lives and their families. So I had to engage with support as well, but it took somebody else ironically nudging me in to get that support, which involved seeing a clinical psychologist, at one point, I was on antidepressants for a while, but that's all part of a healing journey, feelings a way to talk about it, maybe processing it so you can keep working well in the environment and and stay within defence doing a good job. But I think that'd be pretty common. Often it's somebody else who tells you to go get help. We seem pretty crap at it, especially guys in particular, we'd rather just face a bullet than talk about emotions or emotions affect us deeply, just like everybody else. But if it's not processed, it ends poorly. It ends... broken relationships, alcoholism, there'll be some consequences if we can't find a way to process that experience and those emotions.

When you've talked to others who were there in Afghanistan, have they had similar experiences to yourself in the years afterwards? And how have they managed that lasting impact?

Most would have yes, and I wouldn't claim to know everyone that well on of the deployment to know but those I know reasonably well. Probably not a day goes by they don't think about it in some way. And yes we've had some of the issues, processing it and working it through and making it a comfortable or more comfortable part of your life. But there's some things that will never be that easy. I have to be more comfortable with crying during movies. That wasn't a thing before. It is since Afghan and I guess in general, being comfortble with being a bit more broken, to a degree.

James, thank you very much for your time today. We really really appreciate you sharing your experiences with us. We'll end with one final reflection. What's something you wish you had known before you went to Afghanistan?

I think Afghanistan made me a far better chaplain. So the experience over there in dealing with it has made me much better in my role than defence. Ironically, if I'd had that before I went, I would have been a better support to people, I thin. But there's only one way to get experience.

This podcast is a production of the New Zealand Defence Force defence public affairs team. We're your hosts, Alex Mason, and Mitchell Alexander. We'd like to thank our guests for sharing their stories with us.

If you need to talk to someone you'll find details for support services in the show notes. We welcome your feedback on this podcast, contact us by email podcast@nzdf.mil.nz. Haere ra.