Lisa Marie Rankin [00:00:00]:

Hello beautiful souls and welcome back to the Goddess School Podcast. In this episode, I have the pleasure of speaking with author, spiritual teacher and tailor, Mary Mueller Schutten. Mary has written a number of books on the wisdom of the body, spiritual awakening, shamanism and shadow work. In this episode, we dive into animism, shamanism and shadow work. Now, don't worry if you don't know what these terms mean. We'll tell you all about them. And Mary has some great practices to start you off, though you're likely already doing some this work without even knowing it. We also talk about disconnection in the age of infotainment, the wisdom of our emotions, and so much more.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:00:40]:

I found this conversation terribly inspiring and I know that you will too. So let's dive in. Welcome to the Goddess School Podcast, a space for women who want to reclaim their story, awaken their archetypal power and live mythically. I'm Lisa Marie Rankine, author, teacher and your mythic guide. I help women step beyond self help and into soul work by weaving together Jungian psychology, storytelling, ritual and feminine wisdom traditions. In each episode, you'll find personal reflections, mythic frameworks, and soul stirring conversations designed to help you re enchant your everyday life and become the heroine of your next chapter. This isn't about fixing yourself, it's about becoming the woman you are meant to be. The veil is parting.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:01:33]:

The ship is setting sail. Let's begin. Hello beautiful listeners and welcome to the Goddess School Podcast. Today I am very excited to present you with Mary Mueller Schutan. She is an author, she has written many, many books which I Devouring Spiritual teacher, Inhaler and she has a background in Chinese medicine, energy work and somatic body work. So really I'm quite the body of work and knowledge and wisdom. So I am so excited to bring you on. And today, Mary, I wanted to kind of focus on two of your areas of expertise with shamanism and shadow work.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:02:19]:

But even before we dive in, would you like to share anything to the audience? Just maybe that I have I had missed.

Mary Mueller Schutan [00:02:26]:

Thank you for having me. It's a pleasure to talk to you today. And I think that you pretty much covered everything. I'm sure that other things will, will come up while we're, we're chatting. So I'll just kind of leave it, leave it open and see what arises.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:02:41]:

Excellent. Perfect. So, Mary, many of the women in my community, I think very much would identify as spiritual and it's interesting, we were just having this conversation in one of my groups about how many women Often like, I just want a cabin in the woods and to grow my own herbs and have my apothecary and my medicinal garden. And it really seems to be this especially, I think, as women reach midlife, this kind of urge to have a little bit more solitude, a little bit more connection to nature. And although they're very spiritual, and we actually do a lot of work with the concepts of Carl Jung, which we'll talk about later, I don't believe that they are that familiar with shamanism. So could you maybe just give us an. An overview of what shamanism is?

Mary Mueller Schutan [00:03:29]:

Yeah. So we can separate things out by talking first about animism. And so animism is a belief or understanding that the world is vitally alive, that everything has consciousness. And so if you are connecting to a tree in your yard or interacting with the vegetables you grow in your garden, or maybe even connecting the lake you're visiting, you know, it's very elements based, very earth based and understanding that everything around us is something that we can vitally connect to. And so that is kind of the underpinning of shamanism. But shamanism is specifically utilizing techniques with that understanding of animism to connect to more than the material world. And so this may be connecting to the earth, to energies that are a part of the earth, to the elements, to other beings, spirits, realms, all that sort of stuff to bring healing or information back to their communities or back to a specific individual for healing purposes.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:04:51]:

Oh, that's so beautiful. And I think that that really is going to resonate quite a bit with the listeners here. And I think it's a lot of what they might be doing somewhat naturally, but maybe not have a name for or not have the specific practice. And one thing that's coming up for me, and you know, as I was reading your book and I was talking about energy cycling and I think you, you suggest starting with a tree. I actually feel like I do that with my dog every morning. He comes into bed with me and it is almost just as if, you know, we're like nose to. And I can be a little anxious in the morning and it's almost just like this kind of. He's like infusing me with the sense of like, groundedness.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:05:30]:

Am I crazy for thinking that I am energy cycling with my dog first thing in the morning or not?

Mary Mueller Schutan [00:05:36]:

He likely thinks of it as a role or a job that he has to do. For example, one of my cats, she believes it is her job to get me up in the morning even when I don't need to social comment and meow until I, you know, wake up and actually get out of bed. Always fun on a Saturday to be woken up at, you know, 6:00am Also, I had a. Had a cat also, who would know exact acupuncture points. And so she would press on them and knead them, which was really quite wonderful. So. So, no, it isn't crazy at all. You are communing in some way with another consciousness, which is your pet, which is one of the main ways that people start to sort of dip their toes into animism and shama it.

Mary Mueller Schutan [00:06:24]:

Yeah.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:06:25]:

Okay, thank you. And it really does feel like he believes it's his job to kind of get me focused and grounded for the day. You know, if he could be saying encouraging words, I feel like he would be doing that to some extent. So that's great to know. And it's interesting. I always noticed that women from my community, because we do a lot of zoom meetings, they always have animals in the background. So it's like something almost innate. I feel that people who are attracted to these types of teachings, they're naturally have the dogs and the cats and have the gardens and the medicinal gardens.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:06:58]:

So I think that that's really just really lovely. One thing that I got from reading some of your books, and I think it's really wonderful. And you're saying, like, really respect the culture, the land, the locale. Can you talk a little bit more about that? Because I think sometimes women might be hesitant to even start this work in fear of their being disrespectful to the traditions that may have created it. So do you have any guidance for people who are like, oh, I'm really interested in this. Is this my tradition? Is this my lineage?

Mary Mueller Schutan [00:07:32]:

Yeah. The history of how shamanism came to the west is a really complicated one. And it is one that does involve colonization and all of this sort of stuff that is very tricky to navigate. And so one of the things that I always teach people is that when we're talking about animism, we're not talking about a country or a different people or a culture that is far away. We're talking about you connecting to the grass in your front lawn, the tree in your front lawn. We have a real need to sort of magically enliven or to connect to the realm of spirit, the realm of energy that directly surrounds us. And when we're able to do this, for example, through cycling energy or just through a lot of us, through tending a garden or through just taking a walk through our Neighborhood and noticing how the wind sort of moves through us. We are participating in an animistic way.

Mary Mueller Schutan [00:08:38]:

We just have such this tendency in our mind to think of animism and shamanism as something that is far away with somebody that is not ourselves. And so I do hesitate, you know, utilizing the word shamanism sometimes because it is such a word that is so loaded. But unfortunately, it is a word that people connect to and can understand the meaning of. So there is a lot of gray area there which is important for people to recognize.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:09:12]:

Thank you. I think that will be really helpful. And I think it also gives people more permission to experiment and to feel that they can be in direct relationship with their locale and with their surroundings.

Mary Mueller Schutan [00:09:24]:

Yeah, exactly. There is such a need for it in the. In the world. We get so disconnected from everything. And what is going to always be there for you? You know, for me, it's the squirrels in my backyard and the birds and the chipmunks and the trees and that sort of stuff. And so I can develop and have developed relationships with them over time, just like I've developed relationships with friends and family and all that sort of good stuff. Yeah.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:09:51]:

Oh, I love that. One of the things that I've been doing lately is I walk my dog every morning, and we have some really beautiful woods, but just really well, one never, Never having my phone out, or preferably not even near me, but just noticing, like, all of the animals, like the snake, the owl. And it's amazing when you start to open up and you just see. See all of this life around you. And yet I will often see people who are, like, walking their dogs or in this beautiful environment and their phone, their head is just down, looking at their screen. And you said a word. You know, we can feel disconnected. Like, what do you see in your life and your practice where we live in this culture, where I think people feel more comfortable, like, looking, cranking their neck down, which looks really uncomfortable, looking at a screen, as opposed to just taking everything in.

Mary Mueller Schutan [00:10:44]:

One of the basic questions that I ask doing this work is a matter of disconnection versus reconnection. So is the person disconnected from themselves? Are they disconnected from the earth, from the sky, from the divine, from other people? If we are to look at what areas we are disconnected in, we can see needs for spiritual and emotional healing. And so that's kind of one of the basic underlying questions of my work, because it does show a level of spiritual sickness, that form of disconnection. And so it's a complicated topic. But if we're talking about, you know, the energies that were broadened into the pandemic. It very much was a. On a spiritual level, a loneliness epidemic, an isolative epidemic, both physically as well as spiritually. And so shamans and seers and all sorts of people have been talking about different layers of connection and disconnection from the 70s on, from like kind of the hippies on, so to speak.

Mary Mueller Schutan [00:11:57]:

And I think we've very much reached a point where people are incredibly disconnected, which is kind of skyrocketing. Mental health, emotional health issues, as well as, in a weird way, are hyperconnected through the Internet. And so there's this onslaught of stimulus, this onslaught of information that is hard to find our way through. It just ends up being like, you know, like somebody trying to read 200 books a day. It's not helpful. It's overstimulating. And so what happens is that our nervous systems become continually wired to be in an agitated, sort of unsettled, disconnected state. And so we look at our phones more and more as a sort of soothing mechanism, but it doesn't work because it keeps on introducing more stimulus.

Mary Mueller Schutan [00:12:55]:

So kind of a lengthy answer. It really is a complicated topic to think about and talk about about how we are so connected and so disconnected at the same time.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:13:06]:

Yeah, it's so interesting. And you said something that I see come up a lot with the women that I work with. Like, you might think reading books is great, but if you were reading books all day, there's only so much information. Because I think in this culture it could be like, oh, but I could listen to a podcast as we are recording a podcast. Or, you know, I could have this. Download this Audible book. I could sign up for this course. There's so much stuff that I could learn, but at the end of the day, there's only so much that we can.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:13:33]:

That we can take in and process and then convert to wisdom.

Mary Mueller Schutan [00:13:37]:

Exactly. Yeah. And so this is why we see in our culture things like, you know, the streaming services offering specifically shows that we're not intended to pay attention to because we. We've reached this sort of peak capacity to even process things. So I see people all the time, and it's pretty endemic that people are in this agitated nervous system state where their nervous system can't go from into a sort of what's known as a rest and digest state, or basically a state where it can chill out a bit. Yeah.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:14:11]:

And I really see the work that you do as almost the antidote to that, because it's actually about kind of Coming back to real life and connecting to what is around you in the natural environment. What do you think of that?

Mary Mueller Schutan [00:14:29]:

I mean, I'd like to think so. All of my work is very focused on the body, which is very much the present moment energetically. You know, I think of Thich Nhat Hanh, the Vietnamese Buddhist monk who had the whole thing of mindfulness while washing dishes. And if we are willing to come into our bodies, into our lives, into this world, you know, in a more connected way, what happens is that we can pay attention to our feelings and go more deeply into understanding ourselves. Kind of heal all those shadows, all of that sort of good stuff. So, yes, all of my work is very much focused on the present moment. Emotional intelligence and consciousness through the body.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:15:17]:

Yeah, I love that. That sounds also very tantric in some way, where the spiritual practice is not something that you do just between like 7 and 8am but it's really a way of life.

Mary Mueller Schutan [00:15:30]:

Yeah. In a lot of my earlier books especially. Well, I could say all of my books are about consciousness in some way, but especially my earlier books are very much about things like spiritual awakening, kundalini awakening and that sort of thing. And there are. One of the paths that I most resonated with was ones that look at reality as a mirror, like tantric, as well as Kashmir Shaivism, where the end focus of the path was being in the body, having the heart open, recognizing sort of the state of peace and love. Rather than some spiritual paths can be more focused on essentially the crown, chakra opening or going into states that are singularly kind of emptiness or emptying out thoughts and that sort of stuff, or kind of ascending the body and the life, so to speak. Yeah.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:16:27]:

Most of my community are very much interested in the divine feminine. And one way that I've always looked at it is almost the feminine spirituality is more coming into the body. Kind of what we were talking about in the present moment, where maybe a more masculine. And not saying either is good or bad, right or wrong, is more about kind of, like you said, transcending or ascending. So that's kind of the way that I think we've looked at it a little bit in my community, where it's like really about coming back into the body.

Mary Mueller Schutan [00:16:53]:

Yeah. And obviously I resonate with that. What I would say is that in Chinese medicine, which has Taoist underpinnings, they talk about the polarities of the body, with the root, the genitals being the feminine polarity and the crown being the masculine polarity. And so awakening the body would be awakening our feelings, awakening our intuition, would be very much in line with awakening the feminine.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:17:24]:

So interesting. One of the things that you had also, like, written in your book was just about shamanism is a way for people to have a foot in both worlds, really, the everyday earthly realm and the spiritual realm. And it's interesting. So we do a lot of work with myths and archetypes in my community. So we'll have, like, the myth of Inanna going down to the underworld to meet Ereshkigal and come back up, or Persephone going to the underworld for half the year and coming back up. Are there similarities to kind of what you were thinking about and what we see in some of those myths?

Mary Mueller Schutan [00:17:56]:

There are, definitely. So we can look at this in two ways. And so I always try to meet people where they are. And one is considering things as archetypes. And what archetypes are doing is pointing us to very basic human impulses and basically telling the story of our human nature. So at the deepest levels. And so when some people do shamanic work or shadow work, what they are working with are archetypes, those deepest sort of building blocks of self. And in understanding the story of Persephone, they can look at themselves.

Mary Mueller Schutan [00:18:37]:

Oh, there is a part of me that is dark. There is a part of me that feels the need to, you know, go deeply within and then come out to the light, sort of thing. With shamanic work, it sort of takes it a step further with understanding that spiritual reality is another layer of reality that some people that all of us come into contact with. But some people are specifically trained or specifically have a capacity to kind of like a natural aptitude to connect with kind of the further reaching of reality. And so for them, the tree has a spirit, which is a being. There are such things as elementals, as gods, as demigods. And these are not. These are archetypes, sure.

Mary Mueller Schutan [00:19:26]:

But they are also consciousness, beings, energies of their own. Right. As well.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:19:32]:

Amazing. I love how we can look at kind of these different modalities and see how they start to intersect, you know, to really kind of get to, I would say, like, the core of consciousness or just our human spirituality, psyche. I'm using a lot of words, but I think they can be synonymous in some ways as well, too.

Mary Mueller Schutan [00:19:51]:

Yeah, there's a lot of different descriptors for finding people where they are. You know, when we're talking about Jung, talking about the collective unconscious, you know, what is he talking about? He's talking about what some people might call the dream reality. You know, what some people may call the spiritual realms or different layers or realms of reality that people who do shamanic work can. Can travel to.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:20:19]:

And I feel like this is actually a pretty good segue because I wanted to talk to you more about shadow work. And I know you have a new book, Shadow Work for the Soul, which is just amazing. I love it. It's actually a lot of what we talk about and practice and enliven. So I can't wait to dive into that with you. But even before we do, I just to kind of tie up a little bit more of the shamanism. Although there may be more intersection for women who are, you know, maybe looking to like. How do I learn more? Well, one, I would suggest that they get your book.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:20:48]:

But even just to start dipping their toes in shamanism. Do you have a practice that you would recommend to them?

Mary Mueller Schutan [00:20:55]:

I do recommend that people start with connecting with the earth in some way. And so people may already be doing this. But if you feel called to have an herbal garden or plant some flowers or take a walk through the woods, you know, that would be kind of a basic starting point. A lot of times people, their nervous systems are so, you know, haywire that I recommend that they start with a cup of tea and sitting with that no phones, you know, for five minutes a day sort of thing. So that can be a good basic starting point for people is to really be invested in some small way with a relationship with something, be it a cup of tea, a cup of coffee, a plant, a flower, something like that. And then I would recommend that somebody does the cycling energy that I talk about in my shamanic workbook, which is connecting with that tree or that cup of coffee and feeling an energetic back and forth and being able to feel into that over time. And so what happens over time, and many of your students or people in your community may already be noticing this, is that a relationship develops. There's an energetic back and forth that happens.

Mary Mueller Schutan [00:22:19]:

And so when somebody can feel this and recognize this, it just really opens up the doors to so many other possibilities for them. Great.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:22:30]:

Oh, thank you so much. I think that gives the women a really beautiful starting point. So I want to dive in a little bit now to shadow work. It's interesting. One of the first quotes that you have in the book is a quote that I feel like in almost every program or lesson that we always start with was from Carl Jung. Until you make the unconscious conscious, it will direct your life and you will call it fate. And what I really liked about that, that Quote is, I think sometimes in our zeitgeist, you know, culture, shadow work is really popular. And, you know, there's all these shadow work journal prompts, which always, I think is interesting, because if I could journal about it so easily, it's not really the shadow.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:23:09]:

It's in my conscious mind. But what Jung is getting to and what you get is like, look at your projections. Look at your patterns. Look at your reactions. Like, it's not so much about thinking about the shadow, because, again, it's not really a shadow. But what am I doing over and over again? Who am I judging? And that's why we're like, why do I keep dating the same type of people? Why do I never have enough money? Why do all of my jobs end with me storming out?

Mary Mueller Schutan [00:23:35]:

Or.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:23:35]:

And it's like, because there's a part of you in there. And, like, that's the shadow work. So I threw a few things out there that I think are really. Well, tell me a little bit about projections. Actually, can you. Maybe we should start there, because I. I think that's a great way of looking at the shadow, is when we start to judge others.

Mary Mueller Schutan [00:23:55]:

It is. Yeah, that is one of the most basic tools of shadow work. And it is the understanding that especially when growing up, it can happen at any age, but especially when we are sort of in our formative years. What happens is that we learn that parts of ourselves are not okay. They're shameful or they aren't appropriate, or we go to school and see other kids interested in this, and we're interested in that. And so what happens is that we start to cut off aspects of ourselves. And Robert Bly, who is a wonderful poet, called it a long bag we drag behind us that gets filled with all of these parts of ourselves that we've sort of cut off in order to feel safe, in order to feel like we belong, in order to feel some measure of acceptance in this world. And so what happens to all those things is that they don't just disappear.

Mary Mueller Schutan [00:24:57]:

They're still present. But what we do energetically is that we push these unclaimed parts, all these shadow parts, onto other people. And so all of the aspects of ourselves that we cannot see, that we're blind to, that have gone into that bag. We will start seeing in other people. And so that's kind of the basics of projection. And I would add sort of the caveat that if you think that one person is a jerk, that may not be a shadow. But if you're starting to notice that the World around you is filled with jerks or you keep on running into a particular kind of jerk. Just different bodies with different names.

Mary Mueller Schutan [00:25:47]:

That that might be a projection and something to look at.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:25:51]:

I was recently doing a workshop and a woman shared that, you know, she has had eight jobs in the last year that I'll end up her with leaving her leaving. And it's like, well, if it happened once, you know, it might be a fluke. But you know, eight times in a year. That's something for you to look at as well too. One of the. The books that we have I've read and I just want to get your thought about this and maybe you have read An Existential Kink by Carolyn Elliot.

Mary Mueller Schutan [00:26:19]:

I have not. It is somewhere on my to read. Yeah, that's about a mile long but it. But I think believe it's on there. I haven't read it though.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:26:28]:

Yeah, well, one of her tenants is having is evidence of wanting meaning the crappy relationship we're in. The meager bank account is because part of us want it, part of us in our shadow. What. What are your thoughts about it?

Mary Mueller Schutan [00:26:43]:

I think that it is a question I often ask people and it is something very much to consider. Is it Something that is 100% true? No. We do not sort of singularly create our reality. There are a lot of forces and institutions and systems out there that can mean that somebody can be trying their best and still have a bank account that doesn't have very much in it. But that being said, I have certainly worked with people who are struggling with, you know, shadows of apathy, ambivalence, depression, all of this really deep stuff. And we can get to a point. It's not the first question I ask, but we can get to a point where we can consider like, how is that serving you? Like, in what way is it serving you to not have a stable employment? Like, in what way is it serving you to be stuck in a state of depression? And almost always there. There can be a lot of things that come up, but it is fairly common for people to fear taking further responsibility for themselves.

Mary Mueller Schutan [00:27:59]:

Fear sort of stepping into their own power and fear of really living their lives. So all those fears like very much underpin things at a very deep spiritual level. So my simple answer is it's something that surely to look at and we sometimes go into these things with thoughts of like 100% all the time. And that just isn't true.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:28:23]:

Yeah, I'm so glad you said that. And you said something else that I just want to Go back to. You said, the singularity of creating your reality. And I love sort of that phrase that you said, because I also feel like in our culture, with this manifestation, if you think it, if you believe it, then it can happen. And to me, that seems like it really kind of lacks a sense of humility because we're part of a much larger fabric or a web. Do you have thoughts on kind of the current manifestation culture of.

Mary Mueller Schutan [00:28:53]:

Yeah, I do.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:28:55]:

Great.

Mary Mueller Schutan [00:28:56]:

You know, I will say I have a lot of compassion for people who are struggling. And what happens when we're struggling is that we turn to spirituality in order to provide comfort. And so thoughts like, if I only thought right enough, I would be wealthy. And kind of thoughts like that are very comforting in a way to people because they help for people to feel like they are in control. And so I can very much understand that and empathize with that. And that's the reason why a lot of this stuff is so incredibly popular is this idea of, like, you are totally in control. And people who are, again, existential fears, uncertainty, lack of control, fear of death, death, putting food on the table, all of those are very much fears that drive people. So that being said, if we're going to look at the other side of things, if you are walking around thinking, I'm never going to make anything of myself.

Mary Mueller Schutan [00:29:57]:

I suck as a person. This business is never going to get off the ground, I'm never going to have a job, whatever the thought is, if those thoughts very much are populating your mind, there are a lot of good strategies to work, work with them, to look at them, including shadow work. But there's a lot of stuff out there because, you know, it is a reality that that person who is thinking, oh, I'm never going to get a job, if they walk into that job interview again with, like, their head hung low without confidence, the likelihood that somebody who does come in with, you know, that confidence, that thought of, I'm really going to get this job or I have a good chance of it, is more likely to manifest it. So, again, we get into this area of how people like simple answers for complex issues, especially spiritually, and we can sort of take that back and look at those tools and work with them with the thought of, like, yeah, let me do a vision board. Let me manifest things. But also, if I don't get that job, maybe there's something to look at within myself, or maybe just that there was a better candidate, or maybe there was a nepotism hire or, you know, all sorts of Things going on. Yeah, Yeah.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:31:17]:

I love that approach that just seems a lot more balanced and based in reality. So. Yeah, thank you for sharing that in your book. You also have a little bit on the nervous system, which I was so happy to see that because to me, and I. I can't articulate it. I haven't gotten to a place where I can really articulate it enough. The shadow does seem very much linked with the nervous system because the nervous system is also things that we don't necessarily have control over. Like something happens and I can feel my body flush with kind of.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:31:48]:

Of emotion and chemical. Can you describe a little bit how you see the shadow in the nervous system relating to each other?

Mary Mueller Schutan [00:31:56]:

Yeah. When we cut off aspects of ourselves, they can be for a lot of reasons, but a lot of them are deeply emotional. And our emotions have such an effect on our bodies and on our nervous system. And so, for example, if we have an unhealed trauma, what happens is that if in that experience of trauma we wanted to run but we were not able to, what happens to our nervous system is it sort of locks in that flight instinct and there's going to be a part of us that feels anxious, that wants to run, that basically has sort of sublimated that desire. It's locked in our nervous system. And we live it out, we carry it out until we're able to look at it. So I have a background in body work, especially craniosacral therapy and other forms of body work and energy work. And one of the things that we very much talk about in there is how our unhealed and unlooked at emotions are stored within our tissues, within our bodies.

Mary Mueller Schutan [00:33:12]:

What happens is that we become this sort of storehouse of emotions that live within us, that we are in some way acting out, even if they are in the background. And what happens is that our nervous system reacts to all of those emotions. All of those experiences we haven't fully recognized, processed. Does that make sense?

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:33:36]:

It does, yes.

Mary Mueller Schutan [00:33:37]:

Yes.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:33:37]:

Thank you. To me, when we talk about the nervous system and we talk about shadow work, they're both, in my mind, things that come up without us consciously telling them to and influencing our reality. So whether it's kind of like the shadow work, if we look at from the archetypal force, like, oh, it's like there's like aphrodite energy and I'm feeling all of this lust and, you know, it's not like I'm consciously trying to feel that, but it's coming up or whether it's a nervous system reaction because I smell something that makes me remember a bad experience. So, and now I'm feeling very anxious. Is that sort of how they, how you see them as far as, like these forces that we don't consciously control and yet they move through us?

Mary Mueller Schutan [00:34:26]:

Yeah. So let me give an example and, and maybe that will be helpful. Let's say that somebody from an early age learned that sexuality was wrong. And what happens is that they cut themselves off from their sexuality as well as energetically have cut themselves off from their first chakra, so their genitals and their pelvis. This is a very, very common scenario. And so what happens when somebody starts doing shadow work is that they come into with their first chakra and their pelvis and all of the experiences and emotions that were cut off as a result of them feeling shame or maybe rage, fear as a result of their, their sexuality. And so these experiences, like as part of the shadow come up to, and emotions come up to acknowledge. A lot of times what happens when we experience trauma is that we can either totally blank it out, but a lot of us are in stages of recognizing it but not accepting it fully.

Mary Mueller Schutan [00:35:45]:

So we may have accepted something that has happened in our lives, 20%, 50%, 98%, but there's still a lingering part that is in denial or cannot fully accept that cannot has not fully processed, sort of healed the emotions around it. And so when somebody through shadow work reclaims that part of their body and feels the emotions that are locked away there, what happens is that the nervous system responds. At first it has a big, you know, or a medium sized, like emotional response, but then it can actually go to a healthier baseline because it is not continually feeling a background level of fear or rage from being cut off or the experiences themselves. The system is a little bit more whole, a little bit less. It has one less sort of weight, so to speak, within itself. And so through doing shadow work, developing emotional intelligence skills, learning how to feel, which very much is a skill that we haven't been taught. And by reclaiming, you know, our bodies and our stories and ourselves, our nervous system can process all of this background stuff that is causing it for it to be out of sorts and come back into like a healthier, more stable state. So long winded explanation.

Mary Mueller Schutan [00:37:20]:

But it's very much like, important to understand how those things, things interact and how the end result of shadow work is somebody being more realized for sure, but also being feeling more stable, more grounded, more emotionally in tune with themselves. Yeah.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:37:39]:

Oh, thank you. Thank you for that example so much. I think that was really helpful. How would someone know if they should spend some time doing shadow work?

Mary Mueller Schutan [00:37:49]:

I think it could be helpful for basically anyone. But that being said, the people that are drawn to shadow work are. I think it's more helpful to talk about that because people are in varying stages of taking responsibility for themselves and wanting to look at themselves. And so if somebody is at the point where they're willing to do kind of a deep dive in themselves to understand how they tick to heal, some pretty deep, deep stuff, then I would recommend shadow work. A lot of people maybe can use some of the skills of shadow work. For example, I've had people contact me and be like, I'm not ready for the rest. But I've done the emotional intelligence exercises, and they've been really helpful, you know. Yeah.

Mary Mueller Schutan [00:38:33]:

For people really wanting to explore, especially their blind spots, I would very much recommend it. Yeah.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:38:40]:

And is there a particular practice that you suggest? People, if they're like, okay, like what? How do I begin? Is there like a beginner baseline practice?

Mary Mueller Schutan [00:38:52]:

There are two that I can recommend. The first is how to feel, which is in my book, which is learning how to become feel in the body, Whatever emotions come up, but learning how to do that with skill. We're not that a lot of people are afraid of their emotions because they're so big they're uncomfortable, but they don't realize that with skill, they can feel in the body for a little bit, feel a drop or a cup full instead of an ocean full of grief or fear or anger or whatever they're feeling. So that is a beginning practice, I suggest to so many people, because again, we're disconnected from our bodies and our feelings and that sort of stuff. Stuff. The other one that is common when starting shadow work and really getting into it is starting to notice the people around you, basically noticing your projections. And again, it isn't like, oh, that one person was mean. And so I have to look at the mean part of myself.

Mary Mueller Schutan [00:39:54]:

It's also. It's looking at patterns like, you know, how many people do you run across where the same experience happens to you, the same conversation, the same time type person. And if you're able to look at that and see that, like, what people am I really reactive to? Why am I reactive to them? It can give you an incredible amount of insight to areas of healing within yourself. And I will mention as well, which is really important, is that the way shadow work has been popularized has meant people looking at kind of the gnarly stuff in themselves. But we also have shadows of light. And what that means is that if we are obsessed with a certain celebrity or a certain Instagram account, or just somebody in our lives that we feel jealous of, those are also shadows. And we may not be claiming our own talent, genius, beauty, you know, that sort of stuff as well. So it's not all like, you know, reclaim your, your inner anger type stuff.

Mary Mueller Schutan [00:41:01]:

Yeah.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:41:01]:

Oh, I'm so glad you said that because. Yeah, I think in our culture we think of the shadow as the jealousy or manipulation or vanity or things that we. I don't like to say things are good or bad, the things that we might put on, like the less life affirming spectrum, but it's really just anything that we put down into our unconscious. So like you said, it could be our ability to lead or our creativity, or it could be other aspects of ourselves that we've neglected.

Mary Mueller Schutan [00:41:27]:

Exactly. There are so many people that have cut off the aspects of themselves that are beautiful, that feel worthy, that feel talented, that feel light. And so that is a big part of shadow work as well.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:41:41]:

Yeah. Thank you. So I have one more question and it's sort of the final question. I've been thinking about how to phrase it. So it's, it's not leading and I'm not like sharing my opinion with it. I haven't really figured that out yet. But I'm curious, you know, we could go down like doing the shadow work. And I feel like in our culture there's so much like self help and trauma healing and you need to be fixed.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:42:03]:

And I would love to get your thoughts on when does it become too much or when does it become a way to sidestep kind of getting into your life and just recognizing that it can be messy at times. Like, is there a balance between like, like hailing or being on a hailing hamster whale?

Mary Mueller Schutan [00:42:23]:

Yeah, that's an important question. It is one. In terms of my background, this was now 15 years ago or something like that, but I got to a point where, you know, I was doing things like meditating four to six hours a day and something like that. And one of the realizations that I had one day, which very much hit me like a bag of bricks or whatever, was like, at what point is. Is my meditative or other spiritual activities taking me away from life rather than allowing me to lead it, to live it more fully? And so that's still always a question on my mind. And so in a simple way, I recommend people take breaks, for example, especially with my work Some of it, you know, can be kind of heavy duty. And so somebody can do shadow work for a while and have a lot of realizations and recognitions come up and those need time to integrate. And so pick up my shadow workbook, for example, and do the work for a couple months or when it feels like a natural stopping point.

Mary Mueller Schutan [00:43:28]:

And then, you know, go have fun with your life. Lead your life in a balanced, healthy way. There very much is a balance that is necessary and helpful for people. And I do think that we live in such a catharsis based culture where people want these huge life altering revelations, that people want some huge sign that spirit or connection exists. And we also very much suffer under notions of perfectionism, purity and control. And so there almost can become this sort of scrupulosity where people feel like, if I was only spiritual enough, everything would be perfect. If I was only spiritual enough, everything in my life would go well. If I only was a spiritual enough, everything would be Kumbaya sort of thing.

Mary Mueller Schutan [00:44:24]:

And all of those are illusions of control. If we're willing to sit with things like uncertainty, lack of control, recognition that no matter how much spiritual work we do on ourselves, somebody is likely to be a jerk to us in the car, you know, all of those things, what can happen is that our, our reactions very much can change how we live our lives can change. And it doesn't sort of cause for us to bypass painful material and it can lead us to more fully living our lives rather than taking away from it. Yeah.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:45:06]:

Oh, that's beautiful. Thank you. I love that focus on kind of the living with lack uncertainty and lack of control. That's definitely been, been somewhat of a challenge in my life where it's like if I just do, you know, X, Y and then I'll get Z or if I just did this, this would have been like this almost taking too much control. And I think that's kind of human nature that we want to believe that we have so much control if we could just get the formula right. And yet we don't.

Mary Mueller Schutan [00:45:34]:

Yeah. If we really go into shadow work, if we really go into exploring, developing a relationship with a dark feminine, it always leads to chaos, which sound seems like a thing that none of us want. But if we're willing to sit with chaos, it's like we're in the eye of a tornado and we can experience stillness and everything around us might be crazy, uncertain, always changing, but we can still experience like kind of peace, equanimity, stillness, all that good stuff.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:46:06]:

So yeah, yeah, that's really beautiful and inspiring. I know. More easier, you know, sometimes to talk about. Thank you. To experience. You know, as I was mentioning before we got on to, you know, my mother had recently passed and these are things that I talk about a lot. Like I run workshops in the life Death life cycle. But then to actually experience it and to put it into practice.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:46:28]:

But that. That's where the work is as well too.

Mary Mueller Schutan [00:46:31]:

Is.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:46:31]:

Is the real life, not the book.

Mary Mueller Schutan [00:46:33]:

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it is living with and sitting with what comes up in real life and the emotions and the feelings and the sensations. And if we are willing to sit with those things, they can teach us so much. Yeah.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:46:49]:

Well, thank you so much, Mary. I really loved this conversation and I know that my listeners will too. And I will have links to you, to your Instagram, to your books right in the show notes. Is there anything else that you would like to say or anything that you have coming up that you would like people to know about or how to.

Mary Mueller Schutan [00:47:06]:

Get in touch with you? People can always check out my website, maryshutan.com I do have varying courses that come up in different subjects. I also have YouTube and sometimes I'm on Instagram and Facebook and that sort of stuff. But you can check me out all of all of those places. Excellent.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:47:29]:

Well, thank you so much for your time today and yeah, and I look forward to diving into more of more of your amazing books.

Mary Mueller Schutan [00:47:37]:

Thank you. Thank you for having me on on.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:47:41]:

Thank you for joining me for this episode of the Goddess School podcast. I hope it sparked your imagination and expanded your vision for what's possible. If you're ready to explore these concepts more deeply, reclaim your personal myth and live with greater creativity and enchantment, I invite you to join me. Inside Enlivened my Divine Feminine Mystery School and Saint Sacred Community where we bring these teachings to life through ritual, story coaching and of course, real world action. You can find the link to learn more in the show notes. And remember, the goddess isn't a deity outside of yourself. She's an aspect of your highest self. You are the goddess.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:48:23]:

Until next time.

Mary Mueller Schutan [00:48:30]:

Sam.