Can you show me because we're going to use some hermeneutics.

Can you show me anywhere in the Old Testament where that word perpetual is not perpetual?

Because again, I understand you're appealing again.

Sure.

Any of God.

Hold on, hold on.

Wait a minute.

I thought I was going to get to have a talk here.

You asked a question.

Hang on a second, sir.

Be quiet.

Okay, There you go.

I will mute you because it's not your show.

You ask the question, I'm going to give you the answer.

Genesis 6:4, the word olam is used referring to those who were of old Deuteronomy.

I'll get just rattle off all the ones where it's used not referring to perpetual.

Genesis 6:4, Deuteronomy 32:7, Joshua 24:2, 1st Samuel 27:8, Job 22:15, Psalm 20:24:7, 24:9, 25, 6, 41, 1377:9 90 ver.

2:103, verse 17, 106, verse 48, 119 52:143, verse 3, Proverbs 8, 23, Proverbs 22:28, Proverbs 23:10 and Ecclesiastes 1:10.

Should I go on for more?

Blah blah, blah, blah blah.

This is Apologetics Live to answer your questions.

Your host from Striving for Eternity Ministries, Andrew aboard.

We are live Apologetics Live here to answer your most challenging questions you may have about God in the Bible.

And for those who may be new here, we can answer any question that you have about God in the Bible.

And if you doubt that you come up with your most difficult question, just go to apologetics live.com and there you could scroll down and and find the the icon there.

Well it's right now a duck icon where you can join us and join the discussion Ask Bar your most challenging question you think can stump me.

Just remember one thing I don't know is a perfectly good answer.

I said I would answer it.

I didn't say it would be satisfactory to you.

But I do can answer any question you have about God and the Bible.

This is a ministry of Striving fraternity.

But what we do here is we are here to looking to give to basically teaching apologetics, providing not only examples of it, but explaining how to do it.

And what we were doing this month is a listener wanted to have us go through different views of the end times.

And so we have been doing that each week having a different person from a different perspective coming in and giving the the different views that they would hold to so we looked at amillennialism.

We looked at an opinion optimistic millennialism.

Then we had Matt Slick come in and do.

And so first one was Keith Foskey.

He goes by the title of the king of amillennialism.

So a contest where he, he won as the king, so he's got a little crown for that.

Matt Slick came in the next week to talk about what he called depressed etology.

More of a depressing Amel view.

Last week we ended up looking at post millennialism.

And I know my co hosts are not here.

They would hate for me to say this because they liked the first two weeks when they talk.

We talked about their positions or really the first week.

But we're moving away from their positions, I think more to a biblical position.

Oh, did I tip my hat too much?

But we're moving into first to this week, historic pre millennialism.

And then for regulars that, that pay attention to the show, you know that I'm more of a dispensational premillennialist, which will be the last week.

And it was not planned by to end on the position that I hold to.

It just happened to be.

We, we actually were going to start.

We're going to actually end with post millennialism.

But Professor Peter Gaiman could only make it the last week.

So therefore we, we had him come in.

We'll do that then.

So for folks in the chat, I can see already you're going to have a lot of fun.

I see John Smith, whoever he and he is, he's clearly going to be someone who is going to be fun as he is posting in there in the chat.

Hail my Lord Satan.

So I would, I would, I would wager to guess that John won't come in at any point during the show to actually support his views.

But those in the chat, this is why you got to pay attention live, because the chat becomes a lot of fun.

Let me bring in Dr. Chung.

Now I know that we had talked about having Michael Satin in here, Michael Schultz, sorry, in here to, to discuss this.

But he had bandwidth issues with his Internet and he introduced us to Dr. Chung.

So Dr. Chung, welcome to Apologex Live.

Oh, thank you.

Thank you for inviting me.

So for folks who are new to you or don't know much about you, can you give your background.

How did, how did you get saved?

How did you come to know Christ?

And I was born into a Christian family in my father, my late father was a pastor and I accepted the Lord Jesus into my life at the age of 12 and ever since that time, now I'll turn 59 in next month.

So it's been 47, almost 47 years with the Lord.

And I'm grateful for the Lord's faithfulness and his grace and his wonderful provision for everything.

Okay, thank you.

So for folks that might pick up, you.

I know we have an accent.

You don't.

So where are you originally from and how did you end up in America?

Yeah, actually, I was born in Korea, South Korea.

And then I grew up in Korea until my age of about 22.

And then I came to the States as an exchange student and studied at Whitworth University in Washington and then went down to the University of Texas, Austin.

And after that I went to Harvard University Divinity School for my MD I was one of a few evangelicals at Harvard.

And then after that I went to Oxford University in Great Britain to finish my doctorate.

So after finishing my doctorate, I came back to the US To Tennessee King University.

Taught there for five years.

And then I came to Denver Seminary.

Right now I'm teaching systematic theology at Denver Seminary, and this is my 21st year here.

Because of God's mercy and his faithfulness.

Yeah.

So you're teaching systematic theology there, and your view of end times would be historic progress through millennialism.

That's right.

Yeah.

You know, theologically, I'm a reformed theologian, which means, you know, in the tradition of John Calvin and Jonathan Edwards and, you know, some others, I'm a reformed theologian and.

But my eschatology is different from Calvin and.

And also different from Jonathan Edwards.

Edwards was a post.

Post male.

Right.

He was a post millen person and John Calvin was a male person.

But I'm a historic pre millennialist.

Well, I think I. I think that they're both pre mill today.

Just.

Just saying, you know, I think you're gonna have a fan here.

Biblical Baptist says historic premillennialism, the eschatology of champions such as Spurgeon.

Amen to that.

Yeah.

I could.

I can tell you more people about history pre millennialism.

You know, J.C. ryle.

Have you heard J.C. ryle reformed the bishop in England.

He was a history premier.

And Francis Schaefer, history premier.

And I think, you know, even today we have John Piper and.

Oh, really?

And you know, I did.

I didn't know John Piper was historic.

Primo.

Okay.

As far as I know, Piper is a historic premiere.

Neat.

So for folks who may not have, you know, we always have people who are, you know, they may know of the position they hold, if that.

But as we're Going through each of each week, I want you to give you an opportunity.

And for the audience, again, I've been saying this every week, but I'll say it again.

This is not me debating with Dr. Chung.

This is an opportunity for him to explain his position.

And we're doing this each week so you, the audience, can listen and hear people in their own words and what they're saying.

So if you don't hold to a historic premillennial view, now is actually your opportunity to listen to someone that holds to it, explain it, and start to look at what the scriptures say about it to see whether there's some good merit that Dr. Chung is making.

So with that said, I'm not looking to debate you.

I've always said this is my show.

I have every other week I could.

I could go and explain my views.

Right.

So if you could, could you explain to folks what is historical premillennialism?

Yeah, actually, no.

I want to use the language.

The correct.

The correct language is historic.

Historic.

So the word here historic means actually, you know, historically well known and well evidenced and also well accepted.

So which means here historic means primarily historic.

Pre millennialism was a view of many patristic fathers, churchy fathers, after, you know, the death of John the Apostle.

So John the Apostle had several important, important disciples, including Papaeus and Polycarp, and also Polycarp's disciple was Irenaeus.

So here we have Papaeus and Polycarp and Irenaeus and also many other church fathers.

Up to the fourth century, the beginning of the second century, up to the fourth century, we have many church fathers, and most of them, maybe 85, 90, or even 5%, most of significant churchy fathers were historic pre millennialists.

I think that's a very important point.

And then after that, actually maybe two major figures, like origin, right, Origin of Alexandria and Augustine, two people began to advocate our millennial position.

So after that, actually from the 4th and 5th century until the 16th century, even the reformers like Luther and John Calvin.

So Augustine was an amillennialist, and then Luther was following Augustine, and Calvin was a disciple of Augustine.

So both Luther and Calvin became millennialists.

And then after that, during the age in the 17th century, we have the revival and restoration of history premillennialism.

And then in the 18th century, we have the rise of post male position through John Wesley and Jonathan Edwards.

And then in the 19th century, we have the rise of dispensational premillennialism.

So primarily history premillennialism, the language historic means actually supported by Church fathers in the 2nd, 3rd and 4th century, and then also some major features of history.

Pre millennialism is what the millennial kingdom after the Lord's second coming or so after the Lord's second coming, which means the second coming of the Lord will happen before the millennial kingdom.

So pre millennialism.

Right.

And then historic premillennialism argues that the Church will go through the tribulation, the Great Tribulation.

So I think that this is a major difference between historic and dispensational premillennialism.

So according to historic premillennialism, the Church will not be raptured before the Great Tribulation.

Rather, the Church will go through the Great Tribulation.

Whether it will be seven years or four years, or three and a half years, we do not know exactly.

But the Church will go through the Great Tribulation, and at the end of the Great Tribulation, the Lord will come in glory, and then at that time the Church will be raptured, and then the Church will will be lifted up and the Church will welcome the Lord Jesus Christ in the air, and then Lord Jesus and the Church will come down together and the Lord will begin.

The millennial role.

Definitely we have many different opinions about the millennial period, actually.

Will it be 1,000, literally 1,000 years, or will it be a kind of indefinite but long period of time, even though it will not a literally 1000 years?

Have a lot of different opinions among historic pre millennial scholars.

So I think the most important thing for historic premillennialism is the Church will go through the Great Tribulation.

And at the end of the Great Tribulation, the Church will be raptured.

And during the Great Tribulation, the Lord will protect the Church from the persecution of the Antichrist.

I think that those things are major differences between historic premill and dispensational premillennialism.

Well, how would that be so?

In dispensational premillennialism, you end up having a pre tribulational, post tribulational, mid tribulational.

The idea of going through the tribulation period would be a pre, millennial, post tribulational view.

In dispensational, dispensational circles, how would it be different between a post millennial, a post tribulational view and historic premillennial?

Yeah, actually no.

Historic premillennialism is characterized by mostly by post tribulational rapture.

Okay.

So if you are a mid tribulationalist or pre tribulationalist, I think you tend to become more dispensationalist.

But if you are a historic premillennialist, actually you will be committed to the post tribulational rapture.

And actually another major difference between historic pre mil and dispensational is actually hermeneutics.

So how do you interpret the Old Testament as well New Testament, especially the Old Testament.

So according to dispensational scheme, you know, you have a rather sharp distinction or separation between the Jews and the Gentiles or between the Jews and the church.

So more dispensationalism tends to give privileges for the Jews actually.

But for historically millennialism, more a covenantal, covenantal hermeneutics.

So in terms of covenantal hermeneutics, actually history premillennialism has similarities with position.

So we historically millennialism tends to be more covenantal in terms of hermeneutics, which means the Jews will not have any privileges and the Church will be a un or a combination of the Jews and the Gentiles.

So in a sense, actually here we have some kind of supersessionist theology.

The Church is a new Israel, even though, you know, among scholars we have different opinions about supersessionist or displacement theology.

Because I believe, I'm a moderate replace theologian.

Because I believe there will be some kind of future for the Jews before the Lord's second coming, even though the Church will go through the tribulation.

So, you know, we have a variety of different opinions about.

About the Jews, about the place or the status of Jews, about the condition of the Jews.

Even in the scheme of historic premillennialism, which means historic criminalism is not a uniform position, but it is a collection of varied or various different positions.

Even in the category of historic premillennialism.

Yes, so you mentioned replacement.

Could you, for folks who may be new to some of the terminology, explain what you mean by those?

Yeah, replacement theology or supersessionism.

Simply speaking, the church replaces Israel, the physical Jews or Israel entirely.

So there will be no future for the Jews in God's providential scheme.

So in the redemptive plan of God, ever since the Lord's first coming, the Jews will not have any special place in God's redemptive plan because the church replaces the Jews or the Israelites.

Therefore, the church is primary God's people, right?

Primarily God's people ever since the Lord's first coming.

So I think replacement theology, simply speaking, okay, the Church is a replacement of Israel.

And also God's promises given to Israel or given to the Jews will be fulfilled more rather spiritually rather than physically or materially.

Okay.

So the church is a fulfillment of all the promises given to the Israelites or given to the Jews.

So the church is a replacement of the Old Testament Israel.

So the church is a new Israel.

And God, ever since the first coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, God has been dealing with the church without giving any privileges to the physical Jews.

Yeah.

So the, the thing here would be for folks to.

And we'll pick see this next week, right.

Is where you're seeing some similarity with what Pastor Chung is saying, what we heard with amillennialism, as far as Israel fulfilling that those or the, the commands or the promises to Israel being fulfilled spiritually.

Where what you'll see next week is that a dispensational premillennialism would hold that those are going to be fulfilled literally.

So it would bring Israel back into kind of into center stage, shall we say?

Right now the church is center stage.

Yeah.

Just to know.

I want to clarify something actually.

Among historic premillennialists, we have some scholars and some people who want to give some.

Some what?

Some position or some status or meaning of the physical Jews at the end of human history.

Okay.

So there will be, according to them, there will be some kind of future, divine future providence of God according for the Jews right at the end of the Lord's second Coming.

Right before the Lord's second coming.

So we have some different opinions even among historically millennialists.

Actually, some people will say, hey, I tend to agree with millennialism, therefore there will be no future of Israel, no future for the physical Jews.

Some historically pre millennialists, even though they.

Except the post tribulational rapture, but they want to say, hey, there will be some kind of future for the physical or physical Jews because especially primarily because of Romans 11.

Right.

Romans chapter 11, it seems to teach that there will be some kind of future for the physical Jews.

So just I want to say we have very different people and different.

With different opinions within the camp or under the umbrella of historic premillennialism, which.

Folks who've been paying attention each week and as we were going through the series, you've heard this each week, right?

Is that within each of the main systems, whether it's amillennialism, post millennialism, pre millennialism, you'd end up seeing all these different kind of groups within them.

Right now we have historic premillennialism, dispensational premillennialism, then we have pre tribulational, mid tribulational, pre wrath tribulational, post tribulational.

Right.

The fact is that there's lots of discussion on this.

It's not like everyone's a monolithic view that everyone holds to.

In fact, if you go back to the first episode we did the beginning of this month where we talked with Keith Foskey about amillennialism and what you would you have, you had Drew, the co host who was a post mill up until recently, saying we really didn't see any difference between post mill and, and amillennialism as what he called an optimistic amillennialism.

And so there's a lot of that People would say, well, there's really not much difference with, with amillennialism post millennialism.

So I know one person, he says there's really only two end time views.

There's amillennialism and there's premillennialism and then they branch out within those two.

And he might be, he might be more right I think than not.

But you know, what do you, what do you think, Dr. Chung?

You agree with that assessment?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I tend to agree with that.

You know, so we use theologians, actually professional theologians, including me, we use the language pan millennialism, pan P A n millennialism, which means whether you are a premil or post male or amil or whether you are a dispensational or historically male, definitely it does not affect the issue of salvation because we are saved through faith, through faith by grace alone.

Through faith alone, in Christ alone.

So we have a consensus about soteria, about the doctrine of salvation.

So we are saved through faith alone, by grace alone, in Christ alone.

But we have a variety of positions, especially in relation to the millennial kingdom.

But I think that's a privilege, right?

That's a privilege as well as a burden actually.

So, yeah, and you know, and, and you could steal this.

I, I stole it from someone else, a friend of mine.

He, he's pro millennial.

I, I, I, I, I like the pro millennial bet rather than pan millennial.

Pro millennial is if there's a millennium, you're all for it.

That's also a good term.

Yeah.

So, so let, let's look into, I mean when we look at, there's when people think I of pre millennialism, most often they're thinking of a dispensational premillennialism.

And so they'll talk about terms like a rapture tribulation.

You mentioned Some of that, the, the reign of Christ in dispensationalism, they're going to talk about that reign being literal.

The Rapture would be the church going up in the being captured up in the air.

There's a, would hold to a seven year tribulation and a literal thousand year reign of Christ.

Looking at that in that comparison, what would be the historic view with that?

As far as the Rapture, the tribulation, you're saying you believe historic, you would go through that tribulation, but you still believe, if I understand correctly, that God's going to be working with the church for that kingdom and not Israel.

So walk us through those different stages that you would see as the next steps in history.

Okay, yeah, that's great.

So I want to emphasize, I think at this point, second Thessalonians 2 is very important.

So according to the second chapter of the second Thessalonians, actually the apostle Paul mentioned basically three, three stages of the end times.

The first one is the period of apostasy.

The period of apostasy.

So I believe personally we are living in the period in the age of apostasy.

You know, we have many churches in name only, right.

And we have many churches, but they are not true believers in the Lord Jesus Christ.

We have a lot of different churches in the USA and in the whole globe.

But many so called churches are not following the Lord's command and the Lord's priests.

Especially in terms of the issue of what issue of homosexuality, transgenderism or all different moral issues.

Actually many churches are now ordaining Right.

Gay.

Gay and homo people.

Yeah, I'm not a. Homophobia or I'm not, I'm not, I do not hate, you know, gay people.

I want to love them in, I want them to repent and change their lifestyle.

But anyhow, many churches, okay, in the US, in other countries, they are ordaining outspoken gay people into ministry.

I think that's apostasy.

So we are living in the age of apostasy.

And after that, according to the second chapter of the second Thessalonians.

The lawless man, right, the lawless man.

You know, we, we can call him or a, the Antichrist.

So the Antichrist will appear and will rise and then he will reign, you know, maybe for seven years or three and a half years or even, you know, a shorter period.

So anyhow, the Christ will reign during the great Tribulation.

And then that's the second stage.

And then the third stage is actually the Lord will come and he will destroy.

He will Destroy the reign of the Antichrist, the empire the last, the eschatological Babylonian Empire according to chapter 18 of the book of Revelation.

So three basic stages.

The period of apostasy and also the Great Tribulation and the Lord's second coming.

After that we will enjoy the Millennial Kingdom.

And then after that, you know, when the Lord comes again, the righteous dead will be resurrected and the Christians alive.

At the time of the Lord's coming, they will be transl.

Transformed into the resurrection body and they will reign with Christ during the Millennial Kingdom.

And after that, Satan will be released.

Actually, in the beginning of the Millennial Kingdom, Satan will be bound and then he will be thrown into the bottomless pit.

And then after the Millennial Kingdom, the Lord will come again.

And actually when the Lord, not the Lord, at the end of the.

At the end of the Millennial Kingdom, actually Satan will be released and Gog and Magog will rebel against God and then the Lord Jesus will destroy them as well.

And Satan.

Satan will be thrown into the lake of fire and the unrighteous dead will be resurrected and they will face the Great White Throne judgment.

And after that we will have the new Heaven and the new Earth and the new Heaven, the new Earth will be eternal state and the Millennial kingdom will be a spatial temporal state, a kind of restoration and recovery of the Garden of Eden.

You know, so I think that's a basic scheme, basic plan or basic timetable of the end times according to historic premillennialism.

Yeah, Daddy, we have many different detail, okay?

Many, many different opinions about details.

But I think that's the basic picture.

Age of Apostasy and the Great Tribulation and the Lord's second Coming and Millennial Kingdom and then the Final Judgment and then the new Heaven and the New Earth.

So it seems like there's a lot of overlap between what dispensational, premillennial and amillennial in this view.

So I mean, what would you see.

Then as the core dispensational and history premium?

Yeah, yeah, some common elements.

Yes.

Well, and I'm millennial as well.

Right.

Because there's, you know, it would share with our millennialism the spiritual the of Israel being the.

The promises to Israel being fulfilled spiritually through the Church.

Right, yeah, there, yeah, there.

There are definitely some commonalities overlap between historically millennialism and amillennialism in terms of the place of the church or intro significance of the Church.

But you know, as you know, millennialism does not advocate a physical kingdom.

Physical millennial kingdom on earth.

So that's a major difference between historically male and Amil position.

And this is on, I mentioned when talking with Amel folks because they think they'll say, well, you know, premillennialism is new.

That's a, you know, that's just something that's new to which I usually go.

And did you know that, you know, Augustine believed in a literal thousand year kingdom.

He just thought he was in it.

Before he changed his position.

Yeah, he began, he began his career as a historic premillennialist, but later he changed his position into Amiel.

Yeah, yeah.

So, so what would you, you know, being that there's some similarities between the different views with historic premill, what would you see as the core distinctive of historic premillennialism?

Yeah, you know, some distinctives of historic premillennialism.

Actually, I want to say historic premillennialism is an endeavor to follow, to follow especially the book of Revelation as chronologically as possible.

Which means if you read chapter 19 of the book of Revelation, the chapter 19 of the book of Revelation, the Lord comes again.

Right?

It's a wedding feast.

It's about the wedding supper.

When the Lord comes again, he will come as our bridegroom and the church will be corporately the Lord Jesus bride and the church will have wedding feast.

And at the end, at the end of chapter 19 of the book of Revelation, we have the testimony that the two beasts, which means the Antichrist and the false prophet, will be seen thrown into the lake of fire.

So they are already there.

And then in chapter 20, when, after the millennial kingdom, when Satan, when Satan is thrown into the lake of fire, According to chapter 20, Satan will find, Satan will see the beast, the two beasts, the antichrist and the false prophet had been already there.

So I think this is a very, very important passage.

Let me check, you know, Chapter Revelation, chapter 20, verse 10.

20, verse 10.

This is actually from NIV version, but.

And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of burning surfer where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown.

Which means Here actually Chapter 19 and Chapter 3 must be interpreted chronologically.

So I think that's a very important understanding.

Okay, that's a very important understanding.

So definitely this point is an overlap between historic premill and dispensational premill because we want to interpret Chapter 20 of the book of Revelation rather more literally rather than symbolically or so chapter 20 will.

The events that chapter 20 Revelation prophesy will happen as literally as possible after The Lord's second coming.

Okay, that's actually not the distinctive.

And then another thing, another distinctive actually, which distinguishes historic premillennialism from dispensational premillennialism is actually, we want to see the Book of Revelation as a book for the Church, not for the Jews.

Which means actually chapter six through chapter 18 of the book of Revelation, according to dispensationalism, chapter six through chapter 18, these chapters are not for the church because the church is already raptured.

But according to historically millennialism, chapters six through 18, the stories or the accounts of the Great Tribulation, will be for the church because the Church will be there and the Church will go through the tribulation and the Church will be persecuted by the Antichrist and the false prophet.

Therefore, the Book of Revelation, especially, you know, not only chapter six through 18, but the whole book, the entire book of the Book of Revelation is for the church rather than for the Jews.

I think that's, that's a point that distinguishes historical millennialism from dispensational premillennialism.

Yeah, that would be a distinction.

Let me ask you, you know, every week we've gotten into Revelation 20, you already went there.

So it is clearly one.

When we talk about the end times, talk about millennium, we have to look at Revelation 20 because it's the only passage that we really get the reference to a thousand year period.

So help us understand the historic premillennial view, you know, of.

Okay, what is that thousand years?

Is it literal?

Is it spiritual?

You've kind of answered it already, but I just want to make sure that I ask each of the guests this.

And then what is the binding of Satan?

That's mentioned there?

Yeah, actually, no, about your first question.

Most historic pre millennialists believe that the 10,000 year reign will be physical and literal.

Okay, most of that.

But we have some, some scholars who have different opinions about literal 1000 years.

So some people, some scholars argue, for, argue that the 1000.

Okay, one, the language 1000 can be interpreted to mean an indefinite period of long time.

So we have some different opinions about that.

But many historically millennialists, they want to say, hey, we need to accept a literal interpretation of the term 1000 year reign.

So which means it will be literal and physical reign on this earth.

Okay, so about that, I think we have more overlap between historic premillennialism and dispensational premillennialism.

And then Satan's binding actually bound, Satan will be bound, and then Satan will be thrown into the Bottomless pit, not yet to the lake of fire.

I think we need to distinguish.

We need to distinguish the bottomless pit from the lake of fire.

So the bottomless pit is a different place from the lake of fire, which will be the eternal destiny of Satan and his followers.

So here actually, according to amillennialism here, Satan was bound ever since the Lord Jesus Christ and resurrection.

So Satan is bound according to Amiel position, Satan is already bound.

And then Satan cannot deceive people.

I think that's a nonsense because, you know, according to First Peter chapter five, right.

Satan is what?

Satan is wandering around like a roaring, roaring lion.

And Satan is bloody, alive.

And Satan has been trying to tempt Christians and tempt God's people to commit sins and to, you know, to fall, I think.

So if our millennialists, if they believe Satan is bound, and you know, I think their understanding of Satan's being bound cannot be supported by Chapter 20 of the book of Revelation.

So it completely bound, okay?

Satan will be completely bound so that he cannot tempt or deceive anymore for the millennial, for the period of the millennial kingdom.

I think that position.

Is that what history crem.

Millennialists accept?

So again, there is much overlap between history, cremation and dispensational criminal.

Do you see any role with Israel in the end times?

Is there?

I know you're saying God's going to be focused on the church, but do you see anything active with Israel, the nation that we see?

That's a good question.

I think, personally, I believe there will be a future for the physical Jews, especially, you know, especially I tend to accept.

Accept the interpretation of the signs of the Lord's second coming, especially according to chapter 24 of the Gospel of Matthew.

And then, you know, especially ever since the independence, right?

Ever since the independence and restoration of the state of Israel in 1948, interestingly and mysteriously, Jews are returning.

Okay?

Many Jews are returning to Christ and they call themselves as Messianic Jews.

Right.

I think, you know, for the.

For almost 2,000 years, I think we have not seen such a thing.

A kind of collective conversion of the Jews to Christ.

I think that's a big sign of the Lord's second coming.

So the Jews are returning to Christ, especially ever since the independence of the state of Israel and even today, yeah, not literally numerous people, but I think relatively a good number of people, especially the physical Jews are returning to Christ.

I think that's a good sign of the Lord's second coming.

I think that would be a demonstration of Romans 11.

Even though Romans 11.

You know, definitely we have a different opinion about Romans 11, but I think Romans 11 should be interpreted to include both the physical Jews and the church.

So I think a big sign of the Lord's second coming.

So I tend to what, I tend to be in agreement with some of dispensational premillennialists in terms of, you know, a future for some, some kind of future for the Jews before the Lord's second coming.

Yeah, even, you know, personally, I do not.

Personally, I do not espouse the third theory.

Okay.

You know, we need to build up the third template temple and the third temple.

In the third temple, you know, the Antichrist will.

Will what?

You know, build some, some different, some, some kind of idols or something like that.

I want to distance myself from such an interpretation, but especially in terms of the Jews returning.

I think they're Jews returning to Christ.

I think there, there is a kind of divine providence.

And then especially I need to, I want to take that as a sign of the Lord's second coming.

Yeah.

And you know, it's interesting in, during the chat we had, and this is going to show some overlap, but in the chat we have this professing agnostic, John Smith.

And it was funny because he, he had posted that, he said this earlier.

He said Christians have murdered hundreds of millions of people throughout history.

To which I mentioned that, well, actually atheism has killed more than all the religions combined.

And so he started to bring up Hitler, which was really kind of interesting because he ended up asking the question, well, why, you know, why did.

You know?

Like, basically the question I always hear is, well, if God, if there's a God, why did God allow, you know, 6 million Jews to be killed in Nazi Germany?

To which I said to him in the chat, I was like, because God was reest.

Wanted to re.

Establish the nation of Israel.

Right.

I mean, if you think about it, the, the discussion of of Israel becoming a state again goes all the way back to the early 1900s when the United Kingdom overtook the Turks and controlled that land.

Very early on, like 1917, 1919, they were discussing creating a nation of Israel, but it didn't go over so well with folks.

And it, it was something that had been talked about but never done until, well, Nazi Germany.

And I, I argue that had there not been the systematic targeting of Jewish people in Nazi Germany, there probably wouldn't be an Israel state today.

You know, so that's how God works.

So, you know, I, it's.

I do think it's Amazing that God would bring the people back.

And.

And there are.

I mean, I know for a fact there are Jewish rabbis that are looking to rebuild a temple.

I mean, Dr. Trung, you don't know my background, but I'm.

I'm a Jewish by background.

And.

And I had rabbis try to convert me back to Judaism because the.

The lineage that I'm from is the Kohites, those that would take care of the temple.

So it's a Levitical.

Would be from the Levitical tribe.

And so it becomes this thing where they are looking.

They like.

I had a rabbi actually tell me that he wanted to convert me back because they need people from my family for the next temple, to which I was like, well, yeah, well, there will.

I do believe there'll be another temple, and Jesus will be reigning for it.

Andrew, I have a concession here, actually.

Okay.

In terms of the Third Temple in Jerusalem, I do not believe that is a necessary result of God's redemptive plan.

But I would say this much.

If some Jews build a Third temple in Jerusalem, I want to take that as one of the big signs of the Lord's second coming.

Okay?

Do you see?

You know, my position.

You know, my position is actually the Third Temple will not be a necessary step in God's eschatological plan.

But, you know, I have no.

I have no objection in principle to the Third Temple.

If you want to be a Third Temple in Jerusalem, why not?

And I think then I would take.

As a historically millennialist, I would take it as a sign of the Lord's coming.

So, yeah, that's a.

We can have some discussions about that, definitely.

But I am not a principled opponent to the Third Temple idea.

All right, let me.

Before we go on, let me bring in backstage, we have one of our other speakers at Striving Fraternity, and Brewster, who has.

Has not been here for a while, but we're glad you're here.

So welcome back, Aaron.

Thank you.

I'm happy to be here.

And welcome.

I. I like when Aaron's here.

He hasn't been here all month, and now that we're talking pre millennialism, now he's going to show up.

So it's, you know, but it's.

But it's historic premillennialism, Aaron.

So next week, you'll be happier.

Oh, is that.

Is that how it's going to be?

Because I don't remember.

What makes you remember?

So.

So let me ask you a question, Dr. Chung, because I.

And I.

This is a question I didn't know the answer to.

So I'm really curious.

One of the passages that I hold to when it comes to looking at Premillennialism is the 70 weeks of Daniel.

This is for folks.

Daniel, chapter 9, verses 24 to 27.

So folks want to take a Bible out and look at that.

I think that as we look at that passage, I. I really find it hard to see how people interpret this from a amillennial view.

You know, a view where.

Where the.

The kingdom where there's not a.

A return here of.

Of God doing something with it, with this.

A gap in time between the 69 weeks in the last week, you know, because we end up seeing that those first 69 weeks.

I've only had one person that says the whole thing's figurative.

And he was saying it was literal until he got to the end and then realized that the math stopped working.

So he said, well, it's all figurative.

But how would you.

From a historic, historical premillennial view, how would you interpret and understand the 70 weeks of Daniel?

Yeah, I think, you know, Andrew, I think that's a great question as a historic premillennial, you know, as I told you, under the umbrella of history premillennialism, we have a variety of different opinions, especially about Daniel 9.

I think we have very different opinions among historic pre.

Millennial lasts.

But personally, for myself, actually, as for me, I tend to accept Daniel 9 as a prophecy about the Lord's redemptive plan.

So which I tend to be in agreement with dispensational premillennialists about, you know, Chapter nine's literal prophecy about God's redemptive plan.

So I want to say here, the last seven weeks, right?

The last weeks will be.

Will the word the last seven weeks refer to the period of the Great Tribulation during which the Antichrist will reign?

But many, many historic premillennialists would be in disagreement with me because I am inclined to literal interpretation of Daniel 9.

But, you know, some historic premillennialists would try to interpret Daniel 9 in a more symbolic fashion.

So, you know, so among historically premillennialists, actually we have what, consensus about post tribulational rapture and Antichrist will reign during the Great Tribulation and so on.

I think definitely those things are the features of historic premillennialism.

And also in contrast to dispensational premillennialism, we do not want to give any privileges to the Jews.

Okay, so here we have kind of what.

So my position is a Kind of integrative understanding.

Okay.

My is trying to integrate different opinions into a more biblical picture of the end times.

So I tend to accept dispensational pre, millennial interpretation of Daniel 9.

So after, you know, 69 weeks, we will have the gap of church age and then the last seven weeks will be about the tribulation.

So I tend to accept his dispensational premier position about 909.

So you would see the church going through the seven year tribulation.

@ the end of that tribulation starts the thousand year kingdom.

And you would believe that's the church that then enters into that kingdom.

Kingdom, correct.

Okay.

Yes.

All right.

So I'm just asking for clarity.

So people, because, and next week we'll see a very different view because.

Right, the, the dispensational view for folks who, who are tracking with what you're saying would end up saying that it, that the tribulation, it's, it the church goes up.

Well, you have different views when the church goes up.

But, but you'd, you'd have the, the time where the church goes up and then it, the.

But entering into that kingdom would be the nation of Israel.

That's, that's a distinction between the two for folks to pay attention to.

Let me, let me ask this, that I've asked of each of the speakers.

Dr. Chung.

Every view, every end times view has strengths and weaknesses.

And I think I've said this every week.

Anybody who, who thinks that their view has only strengths, no weaknesses, probably does not understand their view very well and doesn't understand any of the other views probably at all.

So what do you see as the greatest strength for historic premillennialism?

And then what do you see as the greatest weakness for it?

Yeah, that's a great question.

Again, I want to see the major strengths of premillennialism is actually, you know, especially interpretation of the book of Revelation 19 through 20 more chronologically.

So which means we want to respect the text, the text of the Bible and we want to try to interpret biblical text literally.

Okay.

First of all, and then if the text requires us to interpret, interpret the text symbolically, then we want to follow.

So our starting point for biblical interpretation is more literal and historical, grammatical literal and historical interpretation.

And when the text requires us to interpret symbolically, then we can follow symbolically or figuratively and so on.

So I think that's actually basic hermeneutical principle.

Hermeneutical principle that the Bible supports, especially from the book of Genesis to the book of Revelation, so grammatical, historical.

And then we want to interpret the text symbolically or figuratively if the text requires of us.

I think that's the first strength of premillennialism.

And then.

And then the second strength of history, premillennialismillennialism, is this.

Actually we believe the Book of Revelation is for the church, not for the Jews.

Primarily, you know, chapter three, especially the Book of Revelation, chapter two and three, and also even chapter one, the Apostle John, when he was sitting down the Book of Revelation, actually he had churches in his mind, not the Jews.

So I think here chapter two is about the church, Chapter three is about the church.

Then why not from chapter four, four, five, or six through eighteen?

I think chapter six through eighteen should be for the church, not for the Jews.

I have no, you know, no ill feeling about Jews, but I think the Book of Revelation is primarily for the church.

I think that's another strength.

And then maybe final strength is a historic support for the historically millennial position.

Actually, during, especially during the patristic age, from the 2nd century to the end of 4th century, most churchy fathers were historic pre millennialists.

I think that's maybe third point in terms of the strength of history premillennialism.

But we have actually definitely witnesses in history premillennialism.

The first one is primarily about the millennial kingdom, the character of the millennial kingdom, and also who entered the millennial kingdom, who entered the millennial king, who, who will enter the millennial kingdom?

Who will reign in the millennial kingdom, and will there be death during the millennial kingdom?

Or so I think in terms of the character of the millennial kingdom, I think we do not have any consensus and we do not have any standardized answers for those questions.

I think that's definitely a weak point.

And then also, you know, this is related to the Amil critique, our millennialist critique of historic premillennialism.

Why should we have a physical and role of Christ on this earth?

Even though we will enter when the Lord comes, we will enter the final state of the new heaven and the new earth.

Is it not redundancy?

You know, that's actually Amiel critique of premillennialism, including dispensational premill and historic premill.

Even though I have my own answer to that question.

But I think Amil position, Amillennialists, they believe we historically pre millennialists, do not provide a satisfactory answer to that question.

Why do we need physical earthly rain even though we will ultimately enter the new heaven and the new earth?

I think that's a big question that we need to deal with.

Yeah.

Now, for any millennialists, they heard you saying that this historic premill was the view held by many of the early church fathers.

They go, no, no, no, no, this is new.

This started in the 1900s.

I think you're, you're throwing them all for a loop.

They, they don't know that history, do they?

That's right.

You're correct.

Yeah.

Because that is the argument against premillennialism, that it's new.

Which by the way, amillennialism was new at one point too.

And you know, many of the things that people hold to, you know, Reformed theology was new at a point in time in, in the sense where it was contradict or not contradicting it was going against the Catholic, you know, doctrines.

It was new.

But just because it's new doesn't mean it was wrong.

But there is a history to premillennialism that I think a lot of folks don't, don't take into account.

This is why, like, I, I do like the idea that there's the view that there's really two views, amillennial and pre millennial.

And then within them is the branches of, you know, post millennial, you know, optimistic amel, you know, depressing mill, or, you know, but, you know, so but with historic pre mill, you, as you were discussing it, you know, more, most of what we might refer to, and we did refer to as a post trib view, a post tribulational view.

Why is it that the, the view emphasizes the suffering before the glory within.

Within historic pre.

Mill.

Yeah, I think that's a very good question.

Again, you know, this is a, this is actually a different understanding history, premillennial, less.

They want to say, hey, suffering and pain are not necessarily bad things.

Okay.

You know, according to the entire Bible, according to the teachings of the entire Bible, many people of God.

Many people of God went through a very difficult period of hardships and pain and so suffering.

You know, what about Joseph?

Right, Joseph in the book of Genesis.

What about Job?

Right, in the Book of Job.

And also what about, you know, many other people in the Old Testament, Even the King David, he went through a lot of hardships and difficulties and adversities.

And after that, actually he was in enthroned.

Likewise.

What about our Lord Jesus?

Jesus Christ suffered and he experienced pain and horrendous pain.

And after that, you know, Jesus Christ actually was crucified and he overcame definitely the pain and agony of the cross.

After that, the Lord was resurrected and he was, he ascended into heaven and he was enthroned.

So the pattern of the Bible, especially in relation to suffering and glory or pain and glory, you know, first of all we have suffering and pain, and then second of all we have glory.

So I think that's a biblical pattern that we can find in biblical narrative, especially for the people of God, even, even though they are righteous people because of justification through faith and by grace alone, and they are righteous people because of their righteous endeavor during the period of sanctification.

Why then the people of God, why do people of God suffer and go through pain?

Because that's the pattern of divine providence.

Not in the end of history.

The Church will go through a horrendous period of pain and suffering and persecution, but the Church will enjoy glory.

Okay, I think that's one answer to that question.

And more than anything else, I want to say the book of Revelation is for the Church.

And the Book of Revelation actually teaches us the Church, especially in chapter 12, 13 and other chapters, you know, God's people or the saints, they should go through, they should experience pain and persecution and suffering under the reign of the Antichrist.

And According to chapter 12 through 18, God promised.

God has promised that God will protect the church from the rags and from the beast from the sea and from another beast from the earth.

And actually the Church will go through the tribulation, but the Church will be protected miraculously by God.

Therefore, I think, you know, if the Book of Revelation is for the Church, then it is impossible to deny the Church will go through the great tribulation.

Yeah, I think that that's pretty good.

You know, it's, it is something where I didn't think through.

It's, it's how you're going to apply the Book of Revelation, whether it's to the Church or to Israel, makes a very big difference.

And so, you know, and so we could both, we both may end up being pre millennial, but how we and how we're who the audience of the Book of Revelation is can change radically where we end up, so.

That's right.

I think you got the point.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So Aaron, I know you came in a bit late.

Any, any questions you would have on historic Premill.

I always like to ask questions like what does the pizza gain or what position lose from being what it is?

So, you know, historically, pre millennial.

Pre millennialism.

Excuse me, unique in the idea that if I'm not mistaken, it, it's doesn't see the literal seven year tribulation.

Correct.

Is that a fair synopsis of the historical premillennialism?

They don't see the tribulation as being a specific set of time.

Yeah, some people accept seven year tribulation, absolutely.

But maybe historical.

Yeah, some people, some history creed millennialists would accept, they would agree with the seven year tribulation, even, you know, three and three and a half of the peaceful period and three and a half, you know, more persecuting period.

Some of historic premillennialists would accept that.

But I think many of history would say, you know, seven weeks in Daniel nine should not be interpreted literally so more symbolically.

But still, you know, some period of great tribulation and under the reign of the Antichrist, the church will go through the period of suffering and pain.

So the question I would ask is it might be difficult.

Yeah, it's always difficult to argue from another person's perspective.

From conversations, I can answer your question in this way.

You know, I think a present benefit, right.

Present gain.

I think as a historically millennialist, I can enjoy, I can entertain eschatological tension.

Okay, so Amir position, from my perspective, Amir position is too much optimistic because Satan is bound already.

Right?

Satan is bound already and the church is triumphant and the church will be triumphant and the church has been triumphant and so on.

So more too much optimistic about history.

But as a historically millennialist, I would say that the history should be viewed more passively.

Right.

You know, with more optimism.

I think so.

Which means we, we can have some kind of eschatological tension.

Okay.

Eschatological consciousness.

And we want to see some signs of the Lord's second coming, and we want to be alert and watchful about, you know, signs of the Lord's second coming.

So millennialists, they, we want to say, hey, hey.

Our view of history, especially historical development before the, before the Lord's second coming, our view is, is quite pessimistic.

But, you know, we believe that the Lord's second coming will be our, you know, ultimate right victory, our ultimate triumph.

Therefore, according to Titus chapter two.

Right.

Titus chapter 13, the blessed hope, right in the midst of suffering, a prospect of suffering and pain.

But we have a blessed hope and also we have a blessed promise that the Lord will protect the church during the reign of the Antichrist.

So here I want to say history premillennialism is a more balanced understanding, a balanced understanding between historic, between pessimistic interpretation of history and more optimistic interpretation of history.

Yeah, we have internal optimism because it will be finally, ultimately be triumphant.

But actually we Want to be watchful and alert, especially about the signs of the second coming, so we can entertain some kind of classical tension.

Okay, so from my perspective, Amil is too much optimistic.

So let me ask, let me ask you.

Go ahead.

Oh, so just as a follow up, specifically in regard to historical versus dispensational premillennialism, between the two of those, you would lose, maybe scholastically, maybe that tension you speak of, maybe some key element of theological truth.

What would you lose and embrace a dispensational premillennial approach?

Yeah, I think that's a very good question.

Yeah, just I want to, you know, correct the language here.

You know, we do not want to use a historical.

Okay, we want to use a historic.

Okay, that's very important.

Historic premillennialism.

This is very important.

What will we lose in terms of main back Toronto affirmations about the Christian faith if we accept more dispensational, less premillennialism?

I would say ecclesiology will be a main point because.

Okay, so you know, dispensational premillennialists will be saved through faith alone, by grace alone, in Christ alone.

And you know, history, pre millennialists will be saved because of Christ.

Soteriology, not different, not much different.

Okay, but ecclesiology is different because we believe the church is the center.

The church which combines both the Jews and the Gentiles, the church is the center of human history.

And also, especially according to historically male understanding of the Old test, we want to say, hey, definitely Israel was the primary people of God, but even in the Old Testament, many Gentiles were saved and they were included into the major camp of God's people.

And in the New Testament, the church is the primary people of God and many Jews definitely became members of the church.

So just I want to say, you know, in terms of the combination of the Jews and the Gentiles for the people of God, then I think the church is a center of divine providential, our redemptive plan rather than the Jews.

So that's actually ecclesiological difference in main ways.

So let me ask you.

I know you have to go, you've been very generous with your time.

But one last question that I have for you that I've asked each of the speakers as we talk about different views, as we look at the end times, we look at historic premillennialism.

The question I have as a last question is, so how does this affect the way you live?

Right.

Everyone has these different views, but how does historic premillennialism affect the way you would live?

Yeah, I think that's another wonderful question.

I want to say, actually our view of pain should be different because according to history, cream, millennialism, we want to say pain is not necessarily something bad or something that we should escape from or we should avoid.

Yeah, you know, I do not want to go pain or suffering, but in God's plan or in God's providence, actually, pain and suffering have been used spiritually, beneficially, and also Lord God Almighty and also our Lord Jesus Christ and even our brother Paul the Apostle.

Many apostles, they were martyred, they suffered a lot, went through pain.

Jesus.

Right.

Jesus went through the pain of crucifixion, and after that he was glorified.

So as I told you, this is a biblical pattern of God's providence.

So why not?

Why not the Church in end times?

So the church will go through the tribulation, great tribulation, and church will experience God's miraculous protection from the power and persecution of the Antichrist.

And then after experiencing a horrendous pain, the Church will be raptured at the end of the great tribulation.

And the church will welcome her bridegroom in the air.

And then in glory, the church will.

Will come down, Lord, and we will reign in the millennial kingdom.

The millennial kingdom will be a restoration of the Garden of Eden, from my perspective.

And in the millennial kingdom, Christ will reign along with his saints.

And actually, in the first chapter of the book of Genesis, God blessed Adam and God commissioned Adam to be fruitful and multiplied and to rule over a living thing on this earth.

So actually Adam failed.

But the second Adam, the last Adam, Jesus Christ, in his resurrected body, he will reign physically on this earth as restored Garden of Eden.

So I think that's a kind of, you know, a culmination, okay, culmination of divine his, the divine plan of history.

And after that, we will enter the.

The new heaven and the new earth as an eternal state.

So I think, you know, that's.

So our history, premillennial understanding of pain can be very beneficial to those who suffer from all kind of pains and hardships and adversities and difficulties in the process of sanctification.

So the process of sanctification, actually pain and suffering can make a positive contribution to their sanctification, progressive and practical sanctification.

So I think in the end, in the time, the Church will go through the tribulation, as the Book of Revelation teaches.

And the Book of Revelation is primarily for the Church.

Okay, that's My main argument for that.

Well, I do, I do appreciate you coming in.

Very educational.

How could folks get a hold of you if they wanted to get more of what you're doing and what you're teaching?

Oh, definitely.

No, they can send me an email as you, you, you have sent me.

So I think email will be the best, best way to communicate with.

Yeah.

And so if you want to get a hold of him, it is the, the email that he's referring to is I'm going to spell out your name for folks, but it's S U n G w o o k.chung c h u n g@denverseminary.edu.

Yes.

Then you can find my email on the website of Denver Seminary.

So that's so appreciate you coming in.

I know that we, we were expecting Michael Schultz.

We were going to talk about a conference that he and I are doing together and, but we got you instead, which we'll, we'll just tell Michael is better.

But thanks.

Coming on.

It was, it was really a pleasure getting to meet with you, talk with you.

You got a lot of, a lot of knowledge.

I really appreciated the show.

So thank you.

Thank you so much.

And I really appreciate your invitation to speak here and then, you know, I really enjoyed our conversation.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, thank you.

And I know you have to go.

You got some things you got to do there.

And we knew we only had you for an hour and a half, so.

But thank you for coming in.

Yeah.

Thank you so much.

All right.

God's blessings.

God's blessings to you.

Now I, I'll put out a call for John Smith and YouTube.

You know, I, I know, Aaron, you're going to be totally shocked by this, but a professing agnostic who was just very vocal saying Hail Satan and you know, Satan is his Lord and.

But then when I challenged him to come in, sound agnostic.

Yeah, he, he went really quiet and maybe disappeared.

Seems like he doesn't want to have to defend his view.

Oh, well.

I'm thinking if you, if you're going to say things like what he said, and I did see some of that in the chat.

Obviously you're just being, you're just trying to be annoying, right?

You're just trying to get under people's skin and, and get them to respond.

Well, he said he's trolling and he, he outright said he, he's okay with disrespecting us.

He doesn't want to be disrespected.

Trolling.

The other side of it is the other side of it.

And this is probably not true, Mr. Smith, but it would be.

You know, if he truly does believe in Satan, then that makes his.

His claim to be an agnostic pretty lame at that point.

Correct.

To be an agnostic who believes in the supernatural, A supernatural being with a specific name, that's.

That's unique.

But yeah.

And I think he knows how to get in because backstage someone came in under the name Satan just to say, you know, hail, Satan, and then disappear.

So I don't know, could be him.

But, you know, folks, I know we were going to talk about, with Michael, we're going to talk about the Roadmap to Revival conference that is put on by Jeffrey Rice in Tullahoma, Tennessee.

That is going to be in September.

So if you can make it to that, that is September 12th to the 14th.

Now, Aaron, you're not planning to make it to the Roadmap to Revival.

Why might that be?

I'll be at the better conference.

New Jersey.

Yeah.

So Aaron's going to be preaching, actually doing a weekend seminar, striving fraternity weekend seminar at my home church.

And I won't be there, which I don't know.

That could be dangerous.

I want everyone to stop for a moment, just reflect on that.

I'm preaching Andrew's home church.

He won't be there now.

He likes to make fun of me.

I'm not sure if he's done his classic segue into my pillow, talking about how I brought a pillow.

No, I, I haven't listened to him preach.

Andrew, given the opportunity to hear me preach in his church, what does he chose to do?

He's going to Tennessee.

He's going to Tennessee.

See, your daughter thinks that's funny.

Yeah, my daughter, she thinks it's hilarious.

So, so you're.

You're going to be at Oxford Valley chapel in Levittown, Pennsylvania, November 4th, September 12th to 14th.

The topics are going to be.

So this is dealing with, you know, basically living in a broken world, dealing with, you know, our, our, you know, our view of God, our view of the church, the view of the loss, the view of the family.

So, so dealing with a lot of different areas that our culture struggles with.

And so I think this is going to be a very helpful conference for folks.

I am going to mention that October, or, sorry, September.

Why keep saying October?

September, October 5th to the 7th, I will be in Indiana.

There's a.

A ministry toward high school students called Powerhouse.

They're having a conference out there.

And so that conference is going to be held.

It's It's, I'm trying to look up right now the actual town that it's in because I don't remember the specific town offhand.

So I'm looking it up.

It's Washington, Indiana.

So that is September 5th to the 7th.

And I will be preaching at Heritage Baptist, Heritage Southern Baptist Church, which is in and I don't know how to pronounce the city, but Vinicus, maybe Indiana.

But if you look up Heritage Southern.

Everyone who lives there knows how to.

Yeah, like, just look up Heritage Southern Baptist Church if you're in that area.

Also, I want to let folks know that I will be going out to fight laugh feast October 16th to 19th.

And so I, I am this is not a conference that, to be honest, when you look at my background, their background, they would be Presbyterian, post millennial, very Reformed and, you know, Covenantal.

Not exactly my normal group to hang out with in that sense.

But, you know, the name of the conference actually says it all.

Fight, Laugh and Feast.

Because the one thing that I really appreciated, even though I, I might disagree with a lot of the folks there, you can.

The one thing I really appreciate is you can, you could fight over theology there and then laugh about it and go have dinner and.

And that was quite refreshing.

This year's topic, however, is on, well, schooling, educating your children, homeschooling, things like this.

You know, looking at how, you know, as Christians, we should look at education of our children.

Something right up your alley, Aaron.

So that I want to encourage you guys to go check out.

Fight Left, Feast.

That is something that, you know, I think that you'd be encouraged by.

And then one last thing I'm that we're working on.

It's not finalized yet, but I'm it is November 6th to 10th, so it's.

It's.

Or 7th to 10th.

It is coming up quickly is the Grace and Power Conference in Essex, uk.

And so I have been invited to speak there.

It would be.

I would, I guess I'm the only international speaker there.

But if you're in the uk it's been a while since I've been back to or been in the uk so looking forward to getting back there this November.

So it's just some events that we have coming up.

Aaron, you have a couple other speaking events coming up as well.

Yeah.

Yep.

So in October, I'm going to be in Fort Worth at the association of Certified Biblical Counselors Annual Conference.

I have the opportunity to do speaking in two breakout sessions.

I'll be talking about in one, assigning homework that's really valuable for your calendar.

But doing so from the framework of the Parable of the Four Soils, how people respond to truth, and then seeing how Jesus responded to the different types of people who responded in different ways, and then building homework assignments that kind of learned from how Jesus interacted with these people.

My second topic is a little bit very niche, but unfortunately it's a growing issue in the biblical counseling world these days.

I'm talking about counseling children who have been exposed to sexuality, whatever kind, whether physical or obviously like that.

So I have a chance to speak on that now.

I'm not sure if you know this.

I'm actually really kind of excited to be speaking.

Yes.

And to be presenting Truth, Love, family.

But did you know this Andrew Sinclair Ferguson is going to be there?

No.

He'S going to be there.

He's going to be speaking.

Ah, see, talk about International Iowa.

Sounds like that'd be cool to have the opportunity to be there in person for that.

And so that's.

That's at this.

The.

The AB ACBC Council Conference Conference.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, looking forward to that.

And then, Lord willing, it's possible.

We're still trying to work out the details, but kind of moving backwards, I. I hope to be speaking right before Fort Worth, speaking at a family conference in Louisiana, close there to New Orleans.

New Orleans.

And then also forward to potentially getting up to New York as well, some point this year to speak at Pastor Grace Church.

All right, good.

That's.

That's good.

So those are some places you guys would be able to find us if you want to come in and hear us.

So anything else, Aaron, that you'd really want to share before we sign off?

I think I.

Praise the Lord.

Had lots of opportunities as of late in biblical counseling.

A meeting with various families.

I think if you guys ever pray for this ministry, you pray for Andrew, you pray for me.

Specifically, a prayer request that I would ask is that it is a wonderful privilege to be a jar of clay in which God puts this amazing miraculous mystery that is salvation, justification, sanctification, to be able to be the channel through which God speaks as a pastor, as a teacher, as a counselor is huge.

James makes that very clear.

So when I'm working with individuals who come to me for biblical counseling, it is a heavy thing to correctly rightly divide God's word, to apply it to their situation.

It's a wonderful privilege to be able to do that.

But definitely.

So if you guys would pray for that.

As my counseling schedule during this season is getting kind of full not completely.

It's good.

That would be a wonderful thing to pray about.

And then if you are a parent, I would encourage you to check out Truth.

Love to my podcast.

We just finished up a season where we spent the entire season talking about how children respond to sin.

Most of the time we think about how children respond to temptation.

They either give into it or they don't.

But far too often we are giving into temptation and we are sinning.

I don't know about you, but I unfortunately sin every single day.

There are also various responses that we have in lieu of sinning.

Being able to see that as a parent.

Being able to parent intelligently in light of the various biblical responses that people will have after they sin is very necessary.

So that was our past.

Excuse me, our particular season where instead of spending an entire season talking about one thing, we're actually getting into a bunch of different topics.

So we're talking about everything, the odd stuff to the purpose of our parenting.

If we mess that up, we are going to mess it all up.

We're talking about, for example, some topics we've done recently are going to be doing should you give your child an allowance?

Is there biblical answer to that principles that we could pull from to be able to intelligently and intentionally make that decision to the glory of God?

I believe there are children and children's church.

What does that look like?

Should they be participating in this thing referred to as children's church?

Are we just doing what our culture does or are we seeking to make an informed decision for us and for our families based off biblical truth?

So we're going to want to ask ourselves, you know, what can we learn about children's.

Children's church?

And so it's a lot of different things that we're going to about talk about this year.

Again, just a couple more titles from what's going to come up in the future.

The difference between discipline and punishment about children.

Sometimes we force them in our parenting to be escapists.

And we do that very nobly, but we don't want to do that.

So how we can help them.

Not escapists, but instead reflect in those times and those different situations they find themselves in.

I'll also talk about one and I'll be done with this one we're talking about this season.

But one that I really enjoyed was why didn't your child do what you asked?

Normally we like to just think as parents figure, the children didn't do what we asked because they're little sinners.

Right?

They didn't want to or they forgot or whatever else.

But there are actually three main reasons that people don't do what they're asked and they fail to meet up to those expectations.

And if we always assume it's the one, then we're being wise parents, understanding all three of them and understanding how to parent our children in light of those three responses, the three reasons that they don't always do what they're asked is really important to helping them to mature in Christ.

Just some things that we're talking about this season and looking forward to it.

All right.

I'm not sure what Jesse Heller means by vipers and diapers, but that might be a good description for many infants.

Yeah, well that's a quote from Vodi Bakam and so I will say this.

Muted at least I can't hear you, Andrew.

Oh, I'm sorry.

I was muted on this one but not on my rodecaster.

So vipers and diapers is from Votey Boy Bacham, a quote from Vod Bacham.

And so yeah, I, I, I, I missed that one.

I probably need to look.

Yeah, and I may be at event in an event in September with Voty.

We, we'll see.

It's there's I'm told that he is going to be joining us, but I'm not, I haven't announced that yet.

So, but we'll see.

But, so that may be coming soon.

All right.

Well then folks, I hope this was helpful for you.

Next week we'll have Dr. Peter Gaiman on and he is a professor at Shepherd's Theological Seminary and he is going to be taking the position of dispensational premillennialism, the last of the ones that we're looking at and in my opinion the right one, the biblical one.

But, but no, I think it'll be really helpful.

I hope you guys enjoyed the series.

That has been helpful to each of you to just as we've been going through to see the different views, see them, explain their views.

I hope it's been helpful.

If so, let me know.

Just send us an email info at striving for eternity.com info@restrivingforeternity.com and that is a way to get a hold of us.

And so with that Aaron, we will sign off and see you guys next week.

Remember to strive to make today an eternal day for the glory of God.

We'll see you next time.

Bye now.