Alex: Today we’re hearing the story of a true pioneer in British science. Not only did she make waves with her groundbreaking research – she also paved a way for fellow female scientists. And, as you can imagine, it hasn’t been smooth sailing.

Athene: I’m a physicist. I'm now a retired physicist. But I continue as master of Churchill College, which is one of the colleges in Cambridge.

Alex: Meet Dame Athene Donald.

Athene: I was born in London, I have spent most of my active research life at the University of Cambridge.

Alex: But the seed of Athene’s interest in physics was planted far away from the hallowed corridors of Cambridge -- and well before she even knew what physics was.

Athene and her older sister were raised by their mum -- the family lived with their grandparents. There was one time when Athene was sick, and she had to stay in bed.

Athene: And I remember shutting one eye and then the other eye and seeing how my nose got in the way.

Alex: Young Athene was figuring out that light travels in a straight line -- though she didn’t have the words for it at the time. Things started to click into place when she was 13, and took physics at school.

Athene: My memory is that as soon as I was off at physics, I just thought, yeah, that's it. I think it just made sense to me. That's the best way I can put it, that you know, I looked at the world around me and it wasn't – we weren't talking about outer space or the very small or anything, it was just the everyday stuff. And I thought yes, I like that. It makes sense to me.

Alex: The physics of the everyday: that’s what would become the focus of Athene’s imaginative and deeply influential work. But back in school, she just knew she was intrigued by the way physics could explain things.

Athene: It was trying to make sense of what you see around you. And it did make sense to me in a way that chemistry – well chemistry was more like memorising facts, as was biology when I got onto that. It was the understanding that I really got excited by.

Alex: Athene was lucky to have a supportive physics teacher. But she was still one of a tiny number of students at her all-girls school that went on to do science at A-level.

Athene: Nearly all of them went into the arts. That's just how it was. I knew I wanted to do physics. So it wasn't a problem for me if you like it was what I was going to do. It wasn’t a difficult decision for me.

Alex: Athene didn’t have any male classmates or male teachers saying “physics isn’t for girls”. So there wasn’t any obstacle to Athene pursuing the subject she loved —- at least, not then.

One evening, towards the end of high school, Athene was performing in a concert at her school. Most of her family were in the audience; in fact her grandfather was the only one at home. While everyone was out, a special telegram arrived back at the house.

Athene: And my mother says – I assume she remembers it better than I do – that my grandfather who had gone to bed, put on a coat over his pyjamas and walked up the road – we lived very close to the school – walked up the road to meet us, to tell us that I'd been accepted.

Alex: Accepted, that is, to study physics at Cambridge. Back then in the late 60s, the university would interview prospective students and send out telegrams if they’d been accepted. A world away from the personal essays and application websites of 2022.

Athene was thrilled. But it wasn’t long before she got a taste of what was to come.

Athene: I remember going to a party pretty much the day before I went up to Cambridge as an undergraduate. And it was a party hosted by a family friend, who taught at an all boys school. And, you know, talking to these boys, who were my age 17/18. You know, they were saying, Well, you know, what are you going to do? And I said, Oh, I'm going to Cambridge tomorrow to read physics. And that was just the end of the conversation.

But I certainly very strongly got the impression that this was just beyond the pale. It wasn't what they were expecting, and they weren't comfortable with it.

Alex: The way Athene was treated at that party … it foreshadowed what would sadly become a regular occurrence in her professional life as a woman in science.

After gaining her bachelor’s degree, Athene got a PhD for her research into electron microscopy. She then worked as a postdoctoral associate at Cornell University in New York.

Athene: And I was the first female postdoc in the department to the best of my knowledge. And I think, again, I mean, rather like that experience at the party of the young men, I think people just didn't quite know what to do with me.

Alex: She went to the faculty library to borrow a book. At the counter, she handed over her library card.

Athene: And they looked at me, and they accused me of having stolen my husband's faculty card.

Alex: The library staff took a cursory glance at her family name, “Donald”, and assumed this card couldn’t belong to Athene.

Athene: I was so incensed. I was so angry. But it was just that… that feeling that they could not imagine that I could be serious as it were, that I was a proper researcher.

Alex: These kinds of interactions – being overlooked, sexist slights – they kept on happening.

Athene: There was one occasion when I was on a committee. And the chairman of the committee, said to the committee: “gentlemen”. And I thought this was just so appallingly rude.

Alex: Athene decided not to say anything at the time. Afterwards though, she wrote an email to the man to complain. He said sorry, but it was clearly an empty apology.

Athene: And the next committee meeting, he did exactly the same. And one of the men said, John, you just can't do that. And he never did it again. And I thought that was a good way of dealing with it, because I'd made my point. But I wasn't the one who made the fuss. It was a man who called him out.

Alex: It was disappointing that the chairman obviously didn’t take Athene’s complaint seriously. On the other hand, Athene was glad that someone backed her up.

Athene: But you need allies. People often talk about men as allies, you know, bystanders stepping in. I think it's hugely important. It can make so much difference. And if the woman or any minority who's been victimised if they do it, then you know, “oh, can’t you take a joke?”, that kind of thing when inappropriate stories are being told and things like that. When it comes to gender, men have a hugely important role to play I think.

Alex: Athene continued her pioneering research into polymers through the 1980s and 90s.

Athene: My career as a physicist was not entirely straightforward, just from the science point of view, because I ended up working in an area of physics that wasn't entirely mainstream.

Alex: Much of her research was in the areas where physics and biology meet.

Athene: And I was working for a number of years on starch, so the familiar material that comes out of wheat or corn or whatever, and we did some quite seminal work. It was very interesting.

Alex: In the late 90s, Athene was invited to an annual conference. She gave a talk about her investigations into starch and the physics of food.

Athene: But that evening, in the bar, one of the grey beards for want of a better word, one of the senior men in the field came up when I was talking to someone else, and, and just started having a right go at me for working in this area that ‘wasn’t proper science’. And he accused me of working in domestic science, implying that was all I was capable of doing. And was just generally obnoxious.

Alex: A quick note here: these days “domestic science” is a dated term. It meant the study of household skills like cooking and sewing. So this man was essentially comparing Athene’s groundbreaking scientific research… to home cooking.

Athene: It was just … he was completely out of line. And he was attacking me for my science. And he was attacking me because I was a woman. And you know, just thought I must have been an easy target. I was flabbergasted, I suppose, I just couldn't believe it. It seemed so out of line. As far as I was concerned, I’d given a serious talk, which had been well received, it wasn't that I’d fluffed my talk or anything.

Alex: Athene couldn’t comprehend why this man – who she didn’t know – was harassing her out of the blue -- while she was just trying to have a drink with a friend.

Athene: I did something I don't think I've ever done in any other circumstance, I walked out of the bar. I was so upset. It was just this utterly inappropriate attack. I've never walked out of a conversation, walked out of a bar, like that any other time in my life. Usually, I'd stand my ground. And it was quite clear, there was no reasoning with this guy. He wasn't he wasn't talking seriously to me. It was just a tirade.

Alex: The friend that Athene had been chatting to -- he initially stayed in the bar.

Athene: And so the next morning, I asked him what happened after I left. And he said: the guy had just gone on being obnoxious and had said to my friend, who was also my colleague from the same department, you know, he was saying it must be awful working with a woman like that, she must be so impossible to work with. And in the end, my friend walked out.

Alex: Athene’s friend reinforced that no, this wasn’t Athene’s fault – the man’s behaviour was unacceptable.

Athene: We, the two of us decided to write to the organisers, and name and shame this guy. He was a senior industrialist who was very well known to that community. And the upshot was, he was banned, he was never allowed to come back.

Alex: Athene was relieved – again, that she had a witness who backed her up – but also that the conference organisers took it seriously and refused to allow the man to attend the event in future.

She feels that things have improved for women in science – but believes that’s only been a very recent change. And women are still hugely underrepresented in physics.

Athene: I think there is so much more awareness that there are women doing serious jobs. But we're still a minority and people still forget to invite you to the pub after work, talk over you in meetings. There are still ways in which the male majority in a field like mine don't quite take women seriously sometimes.

Alex: So in addition to her research – for which she’s won countless lifetime achievement awards and fellowships – Athene is an outspoken supporter of women in science.

Athene: Within my university, I was the first gender equality champion, not just for science, but across the board.

Alex: Athene was also the director of Cambridge University's - Women in Science, Engineering and Technology Initiative. And she chaired the Athena Forum, an organisation which aims to advance women in science, technology, maths and medicine in UK higher education.

Athene: I mean I think one of the reasons I have acted as a champion is because it strikes me as improper that the obstacles should still be there that women should still be receiving messages that, you know, physics is an odd thing for a girl to do, that wanting to have a career, be taken seriously is sort of a nice thing to have, but it's hardly a very important kind of thing. I think these things really do matter.

Alex: In 2010, something happened that made it easier for Athene to raise awareness. Her husband got the news first, while she was at work -- and this time it was a letter, not a telegram.

Athene: It was obviously an official communication from Downing Street. And I said, oh, open it! And he read it out to me. And I think we were both oh, gosh, wasn't expecting that.

Alex: Dame Commander of the British Empire – or DBE. It’s an award given for outstanding contributions.

Athene: It gave me a standing. It's a sort of useful way of standing out from the crowd if you want. So I'm sure it did help my influence. On the other hand, there is a danger that it sets you apart – that if you are a young woman looking at the professors in your field, you see someone's got a Dame, it may make it seem just inconceivable that they could be like you. So there is that downside, but I'm sure it gave me a platform and a voice and that people took me more seriously, even if I was exactly the same person.

Alex: Athene shares her insight and guidance in her blog, which encourages young women into science.

Athene: Being a role model is not something I'm hugely comfortable with, but I think it is necessary and you know, I have kind of embraced it without really wanting it, if you see what I mean. I go on championing – again, as the head of Cambridge college, you have an obvious platform. I have continued to speak up, put it that way. A lot of it is indeed speaking up.

Alex: Athene Donald’s progress from being a young child staring at her nose to becoming a Dame due to her contributions to science is a hugely impressive story. Despite the challenges she has faced as a woman in science, she has been unwavering in pursuit of her interests. Through Athene’s journey, we can see how belittling and dismissive men’s attitudes have historically been towards women. We can also see the ways in which these attitudes persist. Athene makes it clear that her interest has always been primarily in science. Yet the experiences she has faced and the failure of science to attract and represent women more generally has compelled her into becoming an advocate. Through her actions and example she is now wonderfully placed to bring more female voices and expertise into science. Both women and science stand to benefit as a result.