Would you consider yourself to be a freelancer?

Or maybe you prefer to be called a solo preneur or perhaps a sole practitioner.

Whatever you choose to call yourself running a business of one

can at times be hard and lonely.

So, how can you avoid the common pitfalls and fries as a freelancer?

I'm joined by Angie lions for a conversation about freelancing

over the next two episodes of architecture business club.

The weekly podcast for small firm founders who want to build their

dream business in architecture and enjoy more freedom, flexibility,

and fulfillment in what they do.

I'm John Clayton, your host.

I know that building an architecture business can feel hard.

Especially for a sole practitioner.

The good news is that you don't have to do it alone.

In 2024, we launched our membership community to a small group of

founding members, including architects, architectural

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We meet online each week and occasionally in person to support

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And to have some fun along the way.

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If you'd like to join this supportive group of like-minded

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Just go to architecture, business club.com forward slash waitlist.

Or click the link in the show notes and enter your details so we

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And if you have any questions, just email Jon that's, J O

n@architecturebusinessclub.com.

Now let's start our conversation on freelancing.

Ange Lyons is a brand and marketing graphic designer based in London.

With over 20 years of experience in the design industry, she has

successfully run her business, Lyons Creative, for the past 12 years.

Ange specializes in creating marketing designs, brands, magazines,

and websites, working across both print and digital media.

Ang is passionate about engaging with people and offering her

assistance wherever possible.

Her love for colors and fonts is evident in her work, and she delights

in sharing this enthusiasm with others.

To connect with Ang, head over to LinkedIn, send her a connection

request and a DM to let her know that you've listened to the show.

Ang, Ang, welcome to Architecture Business Club.

Hi.

Hi, John.

Nice to be here.

Thank you for having me on.

I feel really honoured.

Thank you so much.

Oh, you're so welcome.

Yeah.

It's great to have you here.

So, Ang, I know that in your free time, you, you're a big, Cycling fan.

Can you tell me about that?

And there's a group that you're in as well, isn't there?

A cycling club?

Yeah, there is.

Um, so during lockdown, um, the group, um, was created by three women, um,

three black women, and they called it Black Women on Wheels, Be Well.

And they just literally met up in a park and, um, they started the group.

And I heard about them about a year on, about a year and a bit

into lockdown, um, after lockdown.

And, um, I cycle with them every other Saturday where we can, and weather

permitting, because we are in the UK.

Um, and I've made the most amazing friendships there.

And it's just been great.

I love cycling.

Plus we get to exercise, um, make good friends and have a laugh.

Um, we're not a serious, serious cycling club.

We do have a kit, actually.

I designed the kits for them.

Um, but we're not like, you know, we're not going to.

be all crazy and, and just go hundreds and hundreds of miles.

Um, we, sometimes we can do it.

Some people break off and they can do that, but we just more so go

for the, the community, um, the cycling and the chat, basically.

It's just, um, yeah, it's one of those, um, clubs that are, it's serious,

but not taking ourselves too serious.

And I, and I love being with them then.

Yeah, but they're called Be Well for short, and they're called, uh, Yeah,

B WOW as in B W O W, so Black Women

Oh, Bewell.

Yeah,

I love it.

Love it.

It's a great name as well.

Yeah, so I also handle their social media account for them, so I do

a bit of pro bono work in my time, so.

I've just designed their website and I've designed their kit, so I'm

really part of the community there.

So yeah, I

gonna say it's um, sounds like they're very, very lucky

to have you as part of the group.

I think so.

And also that part of the group is, um, that's another thing.

Everyone is so different and so diverse, um, that everyone, if they can, volunteers

their time somewhere down the line.

So, yeah, we're, yeah, part of a community

that sounds lovely.

How many members do you have at the moment?

Oh gosh, do you know what?

I actually don't know.

There's quite, there's a big WhatsApp group.

We're on WhatsApp.

We'll be chatting on WhatsApp.

I haven't counted the numbers recently, to be honest with you,

but it's quite a, quite a decent amount of, um, um, people there.

Oh, that's cool.

Yeah.

I, I haven't been cycling for ages actually.

Um, so yeah, but I need to, I think I need to upgrade my bike.

I used to have one of those, um, Brompton folding

Oh, yeah.

but then since I sort of wasn't commuting anymore it seemed like

a bit of a, a bit of a luxury item.

So I ended up letting somebody else have that when it ended up selling it.

or I do, I do miss it.

Cause it was a lovely bike.

They're so convenient, especially like in London, jumping on the

train with them, just like flipping them over and flipping them down to get on the

train or bus or wherever you need to go.

Yeah, if I was still commuting like that, I

would absolutely still have it.

It was like the best bike that I ever owned.

It was such a cool bike.

But, um, yeah.

Nevermind

yeah, no worries.

Yeah,

freelancing people might use some other terminology.

Maybe they might call themselves a solopreneur or a business of one, perhaps.

of one, solopreneur, yeah.

we're gonna gonna have a chat about that.

I think for any architects or people that have been working in architecture that

might be transitioning into freelancing, maybe they might have been working for

another business or another architecture practice, I mean, finding clients at the

beginning can, can be quite a challenge.

I was wondering if you had some recommendations for how

freelancers can market themselves.

Do you have any, any thoughts on that?

It's interesting because, um, when you make that decision

to go into freelancing, the first thing I'd say is try and get, if

you can, get at least one behind you before you leave the full time job.

Um, and also build on your own connections, people that you know.

So marketing yourself, I'd say, Oh, you know what I'm LinkedIn.

Marketing yourself and LinkedIn is one of those platforms where it's free.

It's free.

You know, you don't pay, there is, there is a premium service, but you can sell

yourself on LinkedIn, um, not easily because it does, it will involve work.

But if you start posting content on LinkedIn or you start commenting on

people's comments and just must get your, get, start getting your face visible,

start, you know, getting recognized.

I'd say that it's the number one place to start just to start

and then marketing yourself by.

Building your website or getting your website built for you and then another

form of marketing is networking.

You can't be people people talk to people people love people and When you start

networking either online or in person, you'll start seeing your connections grow

and then people start recognizing you.

So it's about, I suppose marketing is about getting your face out there, but

as a freelancer, solopreneur, whatever you want to call yourself, I call

myself a freelancer with a business.

Start, start marketing yourself in the most simplest way that's not too stressful

for yourself, and I would say LinkedIn.

I don't know if you saw this, John, but there's um, the statistic came out

recently from LinkedIn that there are, they now have five billion users and

only five percent of the users post.

What?

Yep.

That's insane.

can you imagine if you're on LinkedIn, and you're not even posting,

um, There are five billion people there.

There's one billion, sorry, one billion people there.

What, so 1 billion people

Yeah,

and only 5 percent of them are posting?

yeah.

Right.

That sounds like a huge opportunity because like you could easily become

one of the five, you could be part of that 5 percent just by starting

to post and to start to stand out

yeah, yeah.

And even if you're not posting, I'd go and comment on people.

So if there's someone that you might wanna work with, or you might think, oh,

that person knows that person, or they've got an audience that I might wanna go

and have a look at or be engaged with.

connect, start connecting with people, start following people, comment on

their posts if they post, and then, I know people say it, but they go into

DMs, and I know sometimes people direct messaging, and I know people sometimes

find that quite icky and not very, you know, nice, but we are in the business

of getting work, and Marketing ourselves.

So even if it's just like saying, Oh, I saw your post.

That was really cool.

They're like, Oh, thanks.

It's not like, don't go in direct and say, I've got this service.

Rawr!

Don't do that.

They will hate you or they'll block you.

Ha ha ha

Yeah.

By my thing,

Yeah.

I get some terrible like first messages from people where

it's just straight into the pitch.

Like literally as soon as you've accepted the connection and it's like, right.

Yeah.

You know, here's my service that you should buy from me.

And it's like, like, yes, you wouldn't do that.

If, well, you shouldn't do that.

If you were, um, a networking event in person, you imagine how that would feel.

If like you walked in there and somebody just came over and started immediately

trying to sell you what they, you know, sell you their product or service.

I think there is some similarities there with the approach.

I think between Online platforms like LinkedIn and in person networking

isn't there that actually, you know it's about a lot of it does hinge on

relationship building and you know getting to know people and not just

You know frosting a business card into the hand and like buy my thing.

Yeah, it's good to do a business card, but do that at the end of

the conversation, maybe, say, or if they offer one up and, you know One thing I do,

actually, I've got, um, laptop stickers.

Ah Laptop

yeah, but say, um, love on it and it's got my, um,

um, email address, um, and my, um, website address and my name.

Because it's something different than a business card, isn't it?

Oh, that's quite cool.

So there's some really good ideas there because they're Those are ideas

that in order to for somebody that's new to freelancing to be able to start

Marketing themselves and getting the name out there in a way that isn't isn't

necessarily like hugely time consuming or costly you can get a LinkedIn set up

a LinkedIn account for free and There are lots of networking events that people

can go and attend and there's lots of those that are free too, isn't there?

Yeah, there are.

Yeah, there are.

And also, um, don't forget, go local.

If there's something local to you, have a look what's, a lot of councils

nowadays have a local meetup or they might have a local business hive or

hub somewhere, just go and, if, say, get your name out there, even if it's

like a, a local group, just go and check out what your actual area has.

Um, locally.

Especially if you're, we are by ourselves, we do work by ourselves, and if you feel

like you're craving for company or, um, networking for meeting people, I'm not

saying going to like BNI type meetings or anything like that, and, and again, not

spending money, these events that are put on by the council are normally free, so.

That's um, that's such a good point that and I think that's

worth reiterating that You Going to those events, there's multiple benefits

because it isn't just about, Oh, well, I'm, I'm just going there because

it's a chance for me to try and win business and to sell my services or

whatever it's, it is an opportunity that particularly if you're working on

your own, then you perhaps work from home that it can feel quite isolating.

You can feel a little bit lonely and, um.

I think you might not realize that to begin with, but once you're

doing it for a little while.

So having the opportunity to go to like local in person events and meetings, it's,

it's serving so many different purposes and the fact that you can go along, I

think another objection that maybe some of the architects listing might have

is, Oh, well, what's the point in me going to, you know, if I only work with

this certain type of client, what's the point in me going to like a local thing?

And it's like, yeah, but it's not.

It's not just about that.

It's not, it's all of like, every person that you meet, it's like,

They know hundreds of people as well.

So it's like, you get in the opportunity to meet other people that they might

not directly ever be a customer, but they might be a business buddy.

You might make a new friendship.

It might be a business partnership or somebody that

like, refers business to you over

I was just about to say that it could be even a recommendation.

I, this is no word of lie, I went to a networking event in my area, um,

about two years ago, and I'm still part of the community, um, they hive,

um, in Walthamstow, and they're great.

And, um, somebody there recommended me to, um, Um, a scientist who

wanted her branding done and she turned out to be a client.

This is someone I met two years ago that's just remembered me.

So do you know what I mean?

It's just like, it's not you're going there for work.

I went there because it was a local event.

I wanted to meet some people.

Yeah.

Great.

I got work off it, but two years later, you know, so I'm not saying

again, it's just like what you said.

It's not just about getting the work.

People know people and they'll just, They'll recommend you if they,

but don't go with the hard sell.

Yeah, absolutely.

And if that doesn't entice you to go to your local networking event,

there's usually some free pastries

Oh

something

yeah.

some free goodies if you're lucky.

So, um, and I'd be interested to know, we've talked there about a few ideas and

maybe looking at how we can use LinkedIn and networking being another thing that

we can use to help market ourselves.

What creative approaches have you seen used by freelancers?

So maybe have you seen some things, ways to market their business that

not everybody's doing, something a little bit different that beyond

kind of social media and networking?

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Now, back to the show.

Yeah, only what I've seen on when people have actually posted on social

media that they've when they've actually on boarded a new client or they're off

boarded a new client, something creative around that, but they're telling us

about it is that they might send them something like a notebook or a cookie

or, um, or homemade brownies that are, you know, or something that's local to

that person that they might have like in conversation said, Oh, do you like this?

And they might've heard that they liked it and they'll send them a gift.

And I'm not saying.

That you should spend all your money on client gifts.

But just those nice little touches that the client will then share maybe

on their shows, social media, their LinkedIn or Instagram and say, Oh

look, um, this person sent me this.

And that's another form of creative marketing, you know?

Yeah.

that.

If you think about, let's say, an average client project, and this is going to

vary from business to business, but, I mean, you might be working on a project

for that client, and maybe the value of that project could even be several

thousand pounds, potentially, if it's an architecture client, and to do

something for them like that, To send them a thoughtful gift at some point

in that process of working with them.

And actually as a, if you think of it as a percentage of what the value of

that client project is, it could be a relatively small percentage, but actually

really kind of impactful thing for the customer to get something, especially

if it's something, um, like a physical thing, like they're actually physically

getting a gift that they can hold in their hands, you know, whether that's I don't

know, like a nice box of brownies from the bakers that they mentioned that they

really like, or a gift I don't know, like a, I suppose it could even be like, um, a

voucher for somewhere if they'd mentioned that they had a favourite restaurant or

Yeah, it could be something like that.

Yeah, exactly.

Actually, on my off boarding form, I do say to people, I do ask my

client, Do you want something sweet, savoury or paper based?

So, when it's the paper based one, I get them a personalised notebook.

Oh, I love that.

And again, when you say the value of what you've spent, what

they've spent with you, and then they'll, you know, Remember you and

then they'll, again, post it on, they might not even post it, but even getting

that bit of testimonial from them, that's a bit of marketing for you.

You can put that on your profile, on your LinkedIn, make a post out of it.

So creative marketing.

I've also been at events when, um, I've seen people, um, give, um, chocolate bars.

There was an illustrator and he had the chocolate loony, is it chocolate Tony?

The Tony's chocolate.

That one, you know, the loony chocolate bar.

Yeah, Looney, that's the one.

You know what I mean.

But he actually printed out his own labels and stuck them around a chocolate

bar and put them in the goodie bags.

I'm just like, that's genius.

We get a chocolate bar, plus that's like creative marketing for you.

That's marketing for you.

I love that.

That's so cool.

Um, something else that I saw which I really liked was, uh, an architect that

they'd printed a book for their client.

Well, when they go out to see prospective clients and they go to that initial

meeting with them, rather than sort of just leaving them with, you know,

A little bit of paperwork to read through and um, or a business card.

They'd printed a really nice book and it was like a, a mini book and it was

including some sort of case studies and client stories, but it felt like

it was, I mean, I don't know who said it, but I've, somebody said it.

Books are like the world's best business card because if you leave somebody with a

book, they're very, very unlikely to just throw it away or put it in the recycling.

it, um, yeah, was it Daniel Priestly

it may well have

Yeah.

Yeah.

It may well have but yeah, they, it's so true though, because like people

don't, we don't throw books away.

So to have something like that to give to, prospective client or somebody

that was interested in working with you is quite a nice thing.

I know that's sort of more at the front end, isn't it?

Rather than gifting them afterwards,

Yeah.

No, but it's still, it's still something in a creative way.

Yeah, exactly.

Cool, and I suppose things like, um, Well,

we're on a podcast now, aren't

Oh, sorry.

Yeah.

How could I not?

How could I forget?

I'm meant to be marketing myself here.

I'm on a podcast.

Yeah.

Yeah.

You're right.

Um, podcasting is a great way if you can get onto, um, guesting on

a podcast or creating your own.

Um, I'd say guesting is obviously a lot easier.

And then with those, what I love about podcasting is that I I get to talk to,

obviously, the podcast hosts and explore ideas with them and talk to them about

subject, different subject matters.

But then the best thing out of it is that you can create your own Spotify playlist.

And a lot of people that have been on podcasts, they forget this, like

you've been on podcasts, why don't you actually put them on a playlist in

Spotify and say, Same for mine, Angela Lyon's podcast appearances, and then

I've got a list of podcast appearances.

So if I put that on my website, or if someone sees it on LinkedIn, my

LinkedIn profile, they'll say, Oh, I might go and have a listen to

her, see what she's talking about.

That is a bit of creative marketing right there.

And it's free.

Oh,

That's, that is a fantastic idea and that is

something that I haven't done.

So I need to go and do that.

I need to go and put together a a Spotify playlist of podcast appearances.

Yeah, and you share that link with people and say, especially

if you're pitching to be on a podcast, um, that's another, that's a whole

different ballgame, I suppose, is, um, wanting to pitch to be on a podcast.

That's, I'd say always, always research the podcast first that you want to be on.

Don't just say, I want to be on your podcast.

But, if you say, if you put that as a link in your pitch deck to be on

a podcast, they can see where you've been and how you sound like and how you

come across, and Again, it's marketing.

How many billions of people are on Spotify?

yeah, no, that's a really good idea.

And I would say if anybody is thinking about, oh, that sounds interesting,

maybe being a guest on a podcast.

I recently did, um, uh, an episode with Colin Gray, and we talked all about how to

be a great podcast guest, and we touched upon pitching for podcasts as well.

So if anyone's listening, thinking that sounds quite interesting, and

you haven't listened to that episode, please go and give that a listen.

And the other thing I would say is, I am always on the lookout

for great guests for this show.

So if anybody is listening to this thinks that, Oh, I'm a little bit

curious about being a guest on a podcast.

If you've done it before, then feel free to reach out to me.

Connect with me on LinkedIn or drop me an email and share your Spotify playlist

if you've you've taken Andrew's advice there And I will happily give that a

listen and we can talk about being a guest on the show and if you haven't

done a podcast interview before then go and listen to that episode with Colin

and then Feel free to make your pitch and, uh, get in touch, uh, especially if

you're working in and around the world of architecture, that would be really

cool because I'd love to hear some more stories from people in the industry.

It's a lot of shy people, I think, that I've spoken to a few folks

that are curious about the idea of, taking part in something like a

podcast, but they're a bit like, oh, Not too sure maybe feeling a bit shy

I think people also think, why would anyone want to listen to me?

What have I got to say?

My gosh, people always want to hear stories.

That's one thing I'd always say, people always want to hear about the person, hear

a story, get some advice, get some tips.

I listen to loads of podcasts.

I get so many tips from them because we're, as you said, we're in our

rooms, in our offices, working from home, working at a co work.

We're mostly pretty much by ourselves.

Stick the, stick the stereo on, just put a podcast on, get some tips and listen in.

yeah, that's so true I mean, I think everybody's got a story to share

There's a story in all of us, you know, definitely like to hear more of that.

So Ange, One of the thing that can be quite tricky for freelancers is

is speaking setting a chargeout rate.

So sort of deciding what to charge.

And I think that's especially could be tricky in architecture

because the the projects can vary quite a bit in complexity.

And I imagine there's some similarities there in other creative businesses

and, in your business, for example, that there might be some variation

in the scope and size of projects that you might be working on.

Have you got any thoughts on how we could approach that about how we can

approach Deciding upon a charge out rate.

Um, it's interesting cause a lot of them, especially in

graphic design and freelancers, they.

I've tried to stop doing this now.

It's charged by the hour.

And I just think that that's not the best way to do it because we've had years of

experience and you're not, you're not filling in that, that, uh, that in that

one hour time or your hour charge rate.

I think around, um, charging projects always work out.

Even though I say don't charge by the hour, work out how

long it is going to take you.

And then what I do is.

adds more on top because then we're gonna have the variables of they're

taking forever to get back to you or they're not getting back to you.

Or we've got, we've had to build in another meeting into this.

I know some freelancers that build in meeting time and then

they'll charge that by the hour.

Um, I try not to do that because I like to be upfront and open with my clients

to say, this is going to cost X amount.

Um, so there are, do you know what?

There are calculators out there that work out project rates.

I can't think of one right now, but I have used them in the past, where

you put in how many hours you think it's going to take, and then how

much you want to charge for, and then building anything else on top of that.

Um, like for example, are you going to have to, well for me for example,

am I going to have to delve into buying stock photography for them?

So I'm going to build in that price.

Am I going to, um, Do I have to talk to printers?

I'm going to build in meeting time.

So it's, it's, there's no set, it's quite hard.

Price, pricing is so tricky.

It's such a tricky thing.

Um, I don't know if that, that helps,

Yeah, definitely.

Yeah,

such a tricky thing, but I'd, I'd definitely say, one

of the things I would say is that I'd research price calculators.

Have a look at price calculators, and then they always tell you to add

a percentage on top because there's going to be so many variables that will

just like tip you over and the client is going to take more of your time.

Hmm,

by the hour versus charging by the project.

I'm sure that's something that a lot of small business owners wrestle with.

And it's like, The charging by the hour thing, it, I guess, it depends a little

bit on your appetite to risk as well.

And particularly if you're sort of a new freelancer, when they're charging

by the hour, it's like, well, I know if I charge by the hour, like I'm going

to get paid this amount for that, for that time that I spend on the project.

And then when it moves to the project based pricing, that like the key to

that is that, There has to be, the number has to be big enough to actually

cover and that that's where it kind of gets a little bit tricky where it's

like, that's project based pricing.

I would agree is the preferable way to go if the number that you know that you're

charging is high enough to actually allow for that margin of error and scope creep.

That's the classic one.

isn't it?

Scope creep.

Yeah, exactly.

Scope creep.

I don't know.

It's a term that people, when I mentioned it to somebody, they

were like, what does that mean?

I think sometimes people don't know what scope creep, actually,

do you want to explain, Josh?

Well, yeah, I mean, scope creeps like when, you know, you, you, in

all good faith, you will put together a proposal for a client and you'll agree

the, the scope of work that you're going to do for them and you have in mind

whether, and this in particular is when it's like project based pricing and it's

a fixed price that you'd say, okay, this is going to be 5, 000, we're going to

do this work and in your mind, maybe you thought, well, roughly this is going to

take, you know, X number of hours, but then somewhere along the way there's

like some extra bits and pieces that seem to creep in and it might be kind

of quite almost quite sort of insidious that it's sort of like you might not

realize it's happening and it's like oh can we just can you just do this bit as

well or could we have an extra revision or could we could we have that and if

the If the contract and agreement with the client in the first instance isn't

like absolutely watertight crystal clear with exactly what is included in terms

of deliverables, like very easily there can be this scope creep that, you know,

this creeps in where all of a sudden the scope of the project is like slowly sort

of expanded and then by the end of it, you look at it and you're like, wow, like,

I was meant to spend a hundred hours on this and I spent like 140 hours on it.

Or, you know, there was these extra things that because it wasn't bolted

down at the beginning and because, well, maybe I felt a bit awkward asking the

client for like, Oh, well, actually that little extra thing you've asked

for here is going to be chargeable.

Maybe that conversation because I think that's the thing is that sometimes

that conversation around pricing that sometimes we can feel a bit icky about

talking about money and pricing and if that doesn't happen up front and it

isn't sort of crystal clear about like, this is what's included in the package.

And anything beyond that is chargeable.

And this is what we charge.

Yeah.

Yeah.

area.

A classic one is with, within architecture, I found is

when does a, a revision.

So we'd like, say somebody wanted to make a small change to a design

that's been done on a building.

Like we've been designing somebody's home extension and the client would

like to have some changes made, can we change the bifold doors, the

sliding doors, or can we change that.

Make that roof, like, bigger, that sort of thing.

So first, it's like, has it been identified how many rounds

of revisions are included?

Can they just keep coming back forever and ever saying, no,

move it two inches to the left?

Oh no, move it two inches to the right, you know?

So that's one area where there can be a lot of scope creep that

creeps in with little revisions.

And the other thing is, when does a project go from, uh, when does

a revision become a redesign?

And has that been communicated with the client?

So what happens if, like, we spend lots of time designing this?

Projects or in the case of graphic design.

It might be a brand branding or a logo and then they're like no With we need

to change everything like, and their X might be their expectation might be

that Oh, well, the agreement says we get you know, three revisions included.

Well, we've only had one revision So, can you just like change the whole

thing now as part of the next revision?

It's like oh, hang on a minute This is actually a full redesign, like now you

told us you wanted a, in the case of architecture, well you said you wanted

a single storey rear extension and now you're saying you want a loft conversion.

Well that's totally different, so that's A redesign, that's total redesign.

Oh, but that's a revision.

Like, where does it say in the contract that, you know, you said we could

have as many changes as we want.

And so, and that's where it can get a bit sticky, I

Hmm,

Have you had that sort of experience, Angie, in graphic design

and branding?

And that's all we have time for today in the next episode, Angie and I continue

our conversation about freelancing and talk more about contracts getting paid.

How sole practitioners can avoid isolation, productivity, and more.

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