[00:00:00] Dr Renee White: Knowledge is power, and we are all about empowering the mamas of the world. In each episode, we will unravel and interpret the latest research and evidence-based practices for pregnancy, postpartum, and motherhood. As mums and researchers ourselves, we have experienced firsthand the overwhelming complexity of information myths and those classic old wives tales.

[00:00:27] I'm Dr. Renee White, and this is The Science of Motherhood. Hello and welcome to episode 184 of The Science of Motherhood. I'm your host, Dr. Renee White, and today's episode is proudly brought to you by Fill Your Cup, Australia's first doula village. And you're probably thinking Doula Village. What's a doula village?

[00:00:48] Well, here in Australia we have got 19 doulas across the beautiful continent. We're mainly on the eastern side of this beautiful country, and we essentially look after sleep deprived and overwhelmed mamas. So we have birth doulas, we have postpartum doulas, and we essentially exist because we understand the transformative power of support during what is arguably one of life's most significant transitions.

[00:01:30] And that is welcoming a new child into your life, but also becoming a mum. So we obviously support. Women and their families through pregnancy and then birth and in the postpartum. We make really yummy, delicious meals for our mamas. You get a menu to choose from. We hold your baby while you go and have a nap or a long hot shower or go do some meditation.

[00:02:03] We tidy up around your house. We put the laundry on, we hang out with your toddler. We go take your dog for a walk. We do all of those amazing things because we are essentially, I guess that kind of steady hand that guides you back to yourself. We need to make sure that you feel nurtured, that you're informed, and most importantly, that you feel empowered so you can, so you can really, truly, fully embrace the joy of motherhood with confidence.

[00:02:34] And it's something that I talk about today on the podcast with this guest, the fact that, you know, becoming a mum is hard enough, but you know, there are some extra things that perhaps we can do and, and plan before the arrival of our beautiful babies. And if you need a support system, like a doula to make you feel safe and heard and nurtured, and so you can get those extra hours in the day for rest and recovery, then you know, maybe having a doula in your life is exactly what you need.

[00:03:12] So if you wanted to investigate further about that, then head over to our website, I fill your cup.com, head to offerings, and then you can check out our pregnancy, birth and postpartum doula offerings there. Let's dive into today's episode. We have got a good one. It is a goodie today everyone. I have been dying to get this guest back on the podcast.

[00:03:42] She was one of our very first guests and I, I. I record these introductions afterwards. So in the interview, I think I quoted to say that she was like in our episode 12 or 13. That's not true, folks. I've double checked. She's actually number seven. She was asked. Seventh guest on the podcast. And I can tell you right now if you went back to that and I highly encourage you to, it was, it was slightly amateur hour, as you can probably imagine.

[00:04:14] I was a complete rookie to this whole podcast, uh, phenomenon and. That didn't take away from the value though. Absolutely not. So our guest, who I love to call the goddess of pregnancy and postpartum nutrition, it is none other than Lily Nichols. And in our first episode together back in 2021, we spoke about the flawed pregnancy nutrition guidelines.

[00:04:41] We spoke about food aversions, and we also spoke about a really hotly debated topic, which is folate as well. So Lily is an absolute powerhouse. She speaks to everything that fill your cup really stands for as well, which is evidence-based. You know, nutrition. So Lily's, she's a registered dietician nutritionist, she's a certified diabetes educator.

[00:05:05] This woman knows her stuff when it comes to nutrition and gestational diabetes. She's a researcher, she's an author and has a real fierce passion for evidence-based prenatal and postpartum nutrition. Her work is really known, as I said, to be research focused, super thorough. Like if you are, follow along with her on her social media and check out her blog articles.

[00:05:35] I love the fact that she is so thorough and she's unapologetically critical of, of the current guidelines that are still, as we talk about in today's episode that still haven't changed at all. She is the author of three bestselling books, Real Food for Fertility, Real Food for Pregnancy, and Real Food for Gestational Diabetes.

[00:06:00] And in today's episode we talk about how mamas can set themselves up for breastfeeding success when it comes to nutrition. So we walk through, um, you know, all the micro and macronutrients that really help support that, that journey for you as a mama. 'cause you know, I think like the stat here in Australia, maybe it's worldwide, is like, you know, 96% of, of new mums set out as an exclusive kind of breastfeeding journey.

[00:06:34] And then like, it just drops like, it, it really, really quickly. I think it might be like, you know, 30% are actually exclusively breastfeeding by like 16 weeks postpartum. And that's a, it's a multifactorial kind of conundrum that we have here. But I think it would be remiss of us not to talk about nutrition because essentially, we as mamas are making the milk ourselves with our bodies, and we need nutrition as the fuel. So Lily and I talk about, you know, the things that mums can do to really set themselves up during pregnancy. You know, what are the top nutrients that are depleted during pregnancy and, you know, how can we replenish those to kind of set ourselves up for success?

[00:07:29] We talk about supplements, we talk about gestational diabetes and the impact of that. And then we obviously also talk about, you know. Let's, let's, let's dive into the good stuff. The food. The food. What are her top food and recipes that she would recommend for mamas, particularly in that postpartum period?

[00:07:51] So I know you're gonna love this. It's always a pleasure to chat with her. She is just so like packed full of info. We could talk to our hours about, you know, all of this type of stuff. So I will stop rambling and can you tell I'm excited about this. Here is the wonderful Lily Nichols. Hello and welcome to the podcast, Lily Nichols.

[00:08:19] How are you today?

[00:08:20] Lily Nichols: Doing great. Thank you for having me.

[00:08:22] Dr Renee White: Oh my pleasure. We were just talking offline about the last time that you came, which I think I looked up, um, yesterday, I think it was like episode 12 or 13 of our podcast and like we're in the 170, a hundred and eighties now for this podcast, which is amazing.

[00:08:40] I can't believe how long it's been since I've chatted with you, I think it was 2021. We were in the middle of COVID Lockdowns in Melbourne and I think I had to like hide out in my bathroom. I think it was 'cause it was like the time zone difference was the only quiet spot in my house that I wasn't gonna like wake up my toddler at that time and we spoke about pregnancy guidelines and you know, all of that fun stuff and your research and I have to say it is still our most, it's our top downloaded episode ever. So.

[00:09:16] Lily Nichols: Wow. Really?

[00:09:17] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:09:18] Lily Nichols: That's wild.

[00:09:19] Dr Renee White: It is. It, it's wild. But also I think it's so like pertinent that like so many people are like, oh yeah, those guidelines, they kind of suck, don't they? And there's something seriously wrong with them

[00:09:30] Lily Nichols: and they still haven't changed. Four years have gone by and same old, same old. I'm still talking. We same stuff.

[00:09:35] Dr Renee White: We're still doing it, aren't we? We're still doing it. I get dms from people all the time going that episode, like, have things changed? And I was like, Nope, not really you know?

[00:09:47] Lily Nichols: Yeah, yeah. Same, same. People are like, there must be so much more research. You wrote Real Food for Pregnancy in 2018. Things must have changed a lot. I'm like. No, no, there's, there's, you know, some more interesting data supporting what I'm telling you in the book, but no, there is really nothing, all that groundbreaking. We're still where we're at, you know? Yeah.

[00:10:11] Dr Renee White: Isn't that, isn't that just bizarre that, I think that speaks volumes to like all of our policies and red tape and things like that across the world. But what's changed for you in the past, you know, four years since we've chatted,

[00:10:25] Lily Nichols: let's see, 2021 until now. Well, I have a third book now.

[00:10:31] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:10:32] Lily Nichols: So Real Food for Fertility, it's a bit of a beast. It's, you know, five pages.

[00:10:36] Dr Renee White: Wow. She's thick.

[00:10:38] Lily Nichols: 500 pages be real thick and, um. Yeah, and we've also like spent a lot of time formatting it, it in a way to not be like 700 pages because nobody wants to carry around a brick with them, let alone like the printing cost of a 700 page book.

[00:10:55] So we got it down to like 500 with some. Mm-hmm. You know, careful formatting. But um, yeah, that came out in 2024, so that was big. Let's see, I've been running my mentorship program on prenatal nutrition, the Institute for Prenatal Nutrition for the last three years. In fact, we just wrapped the third round today.

[00:11:19] We had our last call. So

[00:11:21] Dr Renee White: congrats.

[00:11:22] Lily Nichols: That's definitely been keeping me busy. My kids are out of the toddler stage, so. That's a thing. I mean, yeah. Life goes on.

[00:11:31] Dr Renee White: Yeah. That's, that's awesome. Yeah and congrats again on the, on the, uh, third book. It's amazing. Like so many people come to me like, you know, when we're doing our postpartum planning sessions, when I'm doing doula work and they just, and we talk about food, like, you know, my classic line is prep like a doomsdayer as if you're not gonna leave the house for two weeks, like zombies are coming.

[00:11:51] What would you, what would you stock your fridge and freezer with? And so many people are like, I don't know where to start. Or like, I'm starving in pregnancy. What's wrong with me? And I'm like, absolutely nothing here. Please read this book. So I just like, I just hand over your book and I'm like, yep, that's the one just, that's your Bible off you go. And, and they're fascinating.

[00:12:12] Lily Nichols: I'm glad it makes your life easier.

[00:12:13] Dr Renee White: Yes, abso it does and 'cause you know, and I'm like, there's recipes in there, you know, just go for it. And I think a lot of people are a little bit shocked as well 'cause they're like, that's not. That's not what we've heard, or like, that doesn't make sense to us.

[00:12:30] Or, 'cause you know, there's this dogma out there of like, you know, protein, all that kind of fun stuff. So today what we're gonna talk about is, I guess setting, setting mums up for breastfeeding, because that's another really big kind of comment and question I get after baby has arrived. So many mums are like, Renee, I'm starving.

[00:12:55] Like, why am I so hungry? And I'm like because you're recovering from like, you know, that marathon of pregnancy, marathon of birth sometimes, and then you are creating all of this beautiful milk for your child. Of course you're gonna be hungry, like the nutritional load is huge. So I'd love to pick your brain about how to set mums up for success when it comes to nutrition and breastfeeding. I guess my first question always is, is there any, like, is there anything mums could do during pregnancy to help with their breastfeeding journey?

[00:13:35] Lily Nichols: Hmm, that's a good question. Well, first of all, we just have to acknowledge the fact that breastfeeding and just postpartum recovery in general is a huge energetic requirement. We ha we do have separate guidelines for postpartum it, these guidelines really only apply. Like they only have guidelines for exclusively breastfeeding women. So we're assuming like the first six months postpartum, there's no separate guidelines for postpartum, but you're not nursing. Mm-hmm. So I'll throw that out there as a, a gap.

[00:14:07] But even those guidelines acknowledge that you need a lot more calories. There's a number of micronutrients that you need more of. So I think first and foremost, we need to acknowledge the increased needs while we're pregnant. So in an ideal world, we have some food prepped and or a plan for how we're going to be fed. I love your, your analogy of prepping like a, a doom,

[00:14:33] Dr Renee White: doomsdayer.

[00:14:33] Lily Nichols: Doom day. That's actually really smart. And it, it's advice, it that's information I wish I had had the first time around. Oh yeah. You know, first babies you put in, I'll just speak for myself, but I see this a lot. I prepped for the birth so much that I didn't really think about postpartum.

[00:14:54] Mm-hmm. And then postpartum came around and I was like, oh my gosh, I am like out eating my husband, like he made, he like, would make me breakfast super nice. Right. Like, oh great and I was like, I'm going to need like two more of these. Two of these. Yes. That's not enough food. You know, I don't, I don't think you can, I don't think you can put into words just how ravenously hungry you are, but I'm, I'm thinking back to your question on like, what do you do during pregnancy to prep, other than know that you need to be prepared.

[00:15:32] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:15:32] Lily Nichols: With the, you know, one thing that I think helps a little bit is making sure that you're actually eating enough to fuel yourself during pregnancy so that you're already in the habit of fairly regular meals and snacks and you're not in the habit of like skipping meals or eating super sparingly, like at the end of pregnancy.

[00:15:54] It gets a little tricky as your belly is so big, like your stomach is compressed, you can't fit that much food, but you probably have frequency down, I hope.

[00:16:02] Dr Renee White: Yeah,

[00:16:02] Lily Nichols: and that's something you're going to wanna continue postpartum is just eating often, but you're gonna need just massively, um, a lot more food. Mm-hmm. So I think my best advice nutritionally for prepping for breastfeeding is to mentally prepare for the increased need and then physically in your real life, doomsday prep. Yeah. Find, find a way to plan ahead. How are you going to rest, recover, and receive support. That's just not something that's always built into modern society, but traditionally.

[00:16:35] Mm-hmm. Caring for new mums was like, that was the, A major role for older women in the community is often your mum or mother-in-law, auntie grandma, somebody would come and like feed you. Like you don't know what you need. But the older, wiser women do know. Yeah. And they take care of it. And so in lieu of that, it's kind of annoying that we have to step into a role of doing that for ourselves. But ultimately that's often the case. 'cause many of our mums didn't, didn't get that, you know?

[00:17:04] Dr Renee White: Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so let's fast forward to mum has had the baby. What are, you know, the specific nutrients that they should be looking at, kind of making sure are in their diet? You know, what, are there some top kind of nutrients that are depleted during breastfeeding journeys? And I guess yeah, how do they replenish those through food?

[00:17:30] Lily Nichols: Okay, great question. The there's a lot of things that are depleted over the course of pregnancy. So I don't, I don't know if we can name, even name a single like vitamin or mineral that isn't depleted in pregnancy. Because guess what? Growing a brand new human being requires a lot of nutrients.

[00:17:50] We do have separate guidelines, as I mentioned, that call out higher needs for some of them, like mm-hmm. And some of them are kind of shocking, like vitamin A, for example. Those needs practically double in postpartum compared to the pregnancy needs. 'cause there is such an avid transfer of, uh, vitamin A in the breast milk. Like in pregnancy, you have the placenta kind of like throttling how much vitamin A goes to baby.

[00:18:16] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:17] Lily Nichols: And then in postpartum, the baby accumulates something like 60 times more vitamin A over the first six months than they did over the course of the entire pregnancy.

[00:18:25] Dr Renee White: Wow.

[00:18:26] Lily Nichols: So babies are kind of born with low vitamin A stores and then need to be supplied with that later, which is why the requirement so much higher. And also breast milk, like you look at the average woman's breast milk, at least half of them are low in in vitamin A like you can actually measure the nutrient micronutrient levels in breast milk and see which ones are low. And you can do trials where you supplement with nutrients and see if that increases levels.

[00:18:51] Mm-hmm. And for the majority, not all the majority of vitamins and minerals, you do see a substantial increase in milk levels of those vitamins when you're repleting the mum. So you know, from a micronutrient standpoint, staying on your prenatal vitamin should be default mode at least for the first six months.

[00:19:13] Mm-hmm. Some people do it for the entirety of breastfeeding. Some of it'll depend on how voracious of a nurser your baby is, like mm-hmm. Sometimes they kind of drop off once you introduce solid foods and they're not nursing quite as much. Mm-hmm. You know, usually that's a little after the year mark, but I mean, you see such a wide variety of how babies nurse and how the breastfeeding journey goes.

[00:19:34] That it's hard to generalise but definitely for the period of exclusive breastfeeding and like I would add intensive breastfeeding, I don't know, for both of my babies, they kept nursing pretty voraciously. Maybe even more so after we introduced solids 'cause they're also growing and have higher caloric demands, right?

[00:19:52] Mm-hmm. That I, I chose to stay on supplementation. The, uh, Omega-3 fats are definitely depleted during pregnancy. So, uh, DHA being the major one you'll want either, uh you know, 16 ounces, 12 to 16 ounces or so of high Omega-3 seafood every week. Mm-hmm. Or, uh, a supplemental source of DHA, which is either some sort of a marine animal oil, like fish oil, krill oil, something like that or an LGB based DHA supplement. But you do need to get that directly. We have, we have trials where they've supplemented breastfeeding women with flaxseed oil, and it does not change milk, DHA concentrations interesting. Because you can't, you can't convert the plant omegas into DHA in sufficient quantities.

[00:20:40] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Can I ask though, with the DHA, like, we see those supplements like on the shelf type of thing, and they're not all created equally, right? Like, are there certain things that we should be looking for if we were choosing a supplement for DHAs?

[00:20:55] Lily Nichols: Yeah, that's a really good question. There's there fish oil is really a tricky one. Um, well first of all, you wanna look at the, the levels of the omegas that are in there. You should look for one that has both DHA and EPA. Even though for the purposes of where, what we're talking about, we want that DHA, there's still beneficial aspects for, um, EPA as well, and they kind of work in tandem 'cause in nature, you'll always get EPA and DHA together. So you want one that has at least a combination of the two. You want a sufficient concentration of DHA. So sometimes you'll see like prenatals that have DHA added, but it's like 40 milligrams or something like you, you really wanna be aiming for at bare minimum 200, but arguably 300 milligrams or even more of DHA per day.

[00:21:44] Mm-hmm. So look at that. And then you probably wanna vet the quality of the supplement company that's making them, because the challenge with Omega is, is they are very delicate fats. They're very prone to damage and oxidation and then once they've been damaged, they're no longer functioning in your body than the way that they're supposed to now they're just kind of adding a potential source of inflammation 'cause now your body is like, oh, there's this damaged fat that's like kind of reactive and can create sort of a free radical situation. Mm-hmm. I'm trying not to get too technical, but it's hard. And so your body has to expend other nutritional resources like antioxidant nutrients, like vitamin E being a big one to kind of quell the inflammation and like put out the flames of this damaged

[00:22:31] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:22:31] Lily Nichols: Fat going around and ruining everything. Mm-hmm. So you do wanna be careful on that. So there's some companies that do a better job. For testing the levels of oxidation mm-hmm. In their, in their finished product to make sure that it passes their, you know, stricter standards. So Nordic Naturals is generally a really great one. I, I think it's available in Australia. You maybe

[00:22:53] Dr Renee White: we'll have a look. Yeah,

[00:22:54] Lily Nichols: have a look. But they're, they're a fairly popular brand in the states and they have pretty strict quality control standards. Falwell is another one that does a really excellent job in their quality. So there, there's a number of them out there, but you might just want to inquire with the company if they, with, with, you're asking about their quality control.

[00:23:12] Like, always ask for a certificate of analysis so you can see that they're testing for things like heavy metals, PCBs, dioxin, those sorts of things. Common contaminants for fish oil. Mm-hmm. And then I would ask if they do any testing on, um, oxidation mm-hmm and most of the fish oils are going to include something like vitamin E or some sort of a antioxidant with it to try to like, keep the oxidation levels down.

[00:23:36] Yeah. But. Some companies don't. So yeah, fish oil is not one that I would recommend buying like over the counter at a drug store and not knowing anything about it, you know?

[00:23:45] Dr Renee White: Yeah. The nordic Naturals, we, we definitely have that in Australia. Yeah.

[00:23:50] Lily Nichols: Okay, great.

[00:23:51] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Confirmed.

[00:23:54] Lily Nichols: Yes. Really good question though. There's, yeah, there's a lot of confusion on, on Omegas and there's confusion on the plant versus animal omegas. I actually have a whole, whole blog post on that, that I put out last year on, you know, you, you can't really convert the plant ones into the long chain EPA and DHA and sufficient quantities, so you need to be thinking about a source if you're not getting those major food sources, especially the seafood. Just that that is by far, the, the best food source out there.

[00:24:23] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so we've got the omega threes and the vitamin A. Are there any other kind of nutrients that you, you think, okay, these are, these are the big guns for kind of helping with breastfeeding?

[00:24:38] Lily Nichols: Vitamin D is another major one and it is frequently low in breast milk, which some researchers say, oh, breast milk is just deficient in vitamin A and like, no, it's actually very much tied to how much vitamin A a mother is taking in.

[00:24:53] So that is one where you'd wanna continue supplementing. I mean, most are gonna be on a, a prenatal that has vitamin D but doesn't have enough and doesn't have enough for breastfeeding. You might need a little boost depends entirely. This one's tricky 'cause it really depends more on sun exposure and your sun habits.

[00:25:11] Like are you wearing sunscreen? Are you out in the sun in midday or you covered up or only going out in the morning like morning sun is great for circadian rhythm and all that stuff. But you're not gonna get the UVB wavelengths that interact with your skin to create vitamin D. But like, you know, 90% plus of our vitamin D is explained by our sun exposure and our sun habits.

[00:25:34] If you're covering up with sunscreen and protective clothing and not getting any sun, you're, you're gonna be blocking your ability to make vitamin D. So some, some midday sun exposure can be, can be great. Gosh, there's so many nutrients that are potentially depleted, and I'm trying to pick on the ones that are like, I think are most

[00:25:54] Dr Renee White: yeah,

[00:25:54] Lily Nichols: relevant. Like the vitamin D is really relevant because the deficiency is so common. But you also see the deficiency in the milk and you see the carryover effects on baby of, of poor bone development, like potentially rickets when it's really severe and that can so easily be corrected by supplementing mum. So mm-hmm.

[00:26:15] You know, in, in the states, I'm not sure about Australia, there's, there's guidelines on supplementing breastfed babies with some vitamin D, but there's actually research showing that if you supplement the mum with enough vitamin D, she passes enough vitamin D through her breast milk, that a separate supplement for baby is not required.

[00:26:34] Dr Renee White: Right.

[00:26:34] Lily Nichols: And there's a lot of carryover benefits, maternal for getting enough vitamin D, including maternal mood and like yeah. You know, lower risk of postpartum depression and things like that. So might be a good idea to go the route of supplementing yourself versus trying to remember in the craziness of newborn life to get one little drop of vitamin D supplement every day.

[00:26:55] Like, I don't know how anybody would keep track of that a lot easier to just take it yourself. So that's, that's a big one. But if I can switch gears really quick on like from the micronutrients to the, the macros, sort of like a bigger picture here. The main thing that you really wanna be focused on in postpartum is getting not only enough calories, but enough protein.

[00:27:16] Mm-hmm. And that, that one is, is huge. And um, speaking of like research that didn't exist, maybe when I wrote Real Food for Pregnancy. Yeah. There is actually one, uh, on breastfeeding mothers. They looked at women at three to six months postpartum mm-hmm. And looked at their protein requirements. This was actually the same research team that had done the protein studies in pregnancy, the ones that like nobody had ever studied before.

[00:27:44] So again, same team, same kind of methods. And they found that protein requirements in breastfeeding women were not only higher than pregnancy, but it was like higher than a typical female athlete. Like

[00:27:58] Dr Renee White: Wow.

[00:27:58] Lily Nichols: Through the roof high. And this was at three to six months postpartum. So you've already been through the ringer, like the first couple months are the most insane. Yeah. With your insatiable hunger.

[00:28:09] Dr Renee White: Oh yeah.

[00:28:10] Lily Nichols: And the breastfeeding hormones and healing from birth and labor and everything. Yeah. So like at, even at three to six months out, you're telling me I need to eat like as much protein or more than like a grown man. So yeah. You need a lot of protein, um, in postpartum.

[00:28:25] I think if we do ever have the studies on like zero to three months, it's gonna be insane. Like yeah. It, it's, it's definitely going to be far beyond like a gram per pound of body weight if we're looking at early, early on.

[00:28:39] Dr Renee White: Wow.

[00:28:40] Lily Nichols: But that, like you talked about clients having this kind of insatiable hunger. Yeah. Like, oh man, I'm just crazy and ravenous that is like, your hunger levels are like only put in place if you get enough protein. Yeah. Like you will only be able to satisfy the hunger levels. With protein. Mm-hmm. You could try to fill the void with all the other things. Mm-hmm. All the buttered sourdough bread and whatever that you want,

[00:29:05] Dr Renee White: which actually, which is delicious.

[00:29:07] Lily Nichols: Which is all so great. Like you need all the things, but have that

[00:29:11] Dr Renee White: but load it with something else.

[00:29:13] Lily Nichols: Yeah. That sourdough and butter is like a side to your really large bowl of like beef and vegetable stew. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like you need stick to your bones kind of food. Mm-hmm. So you know nothing against fat and carbs we need those too. But really lean in on the protein side, I mean, way more than you did in pregnancy. So especially if you're finding that you are just so hungry that like you eat something and you're immediately hungry right after. That's a sign to me that you're not getting enough of these like sustenance kind of Yeah. Nutrients.

[00:29:51] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:29:52] Lily Nichols: And, and you can notice the difference in it, you know, your day-to-day life, even outside of, of pregnancy and breastfeeding. If you have a meal that's like. A steak versus a meal that's pasta. You have a different level of snacks in the evening afterwards, right? Hundred percent. I mean, I mean like you can have a steak and you're like, I'm good don't need anything else. Yeah. Good to go. Yeah.

[00:30:12] Dr Renee White: Yeah. I, I think I, I used to be like a toast and cereal kind of gal, and then you know, e even before I had my daughter, you know, I kind of was upping the gym kind of stuff and I was, I, my trainer at the gym's, like, you need to start eating eggs for breakfast.

[00:30:29] And the concept to me initially was so, like, it was a bit ick, but once I got on the train I was like, oh, I don't seem to have like a sugar addiction anymore and 'cause I just kept reaching for like, you know, those quick carbs 'cause my body was like, we need energy, like, what's going on here? But I, I kind of it fact, check me on this Lily, 'cause I'd love to know, but my understanding is that, you know, for, for someone when they wake up particularly postpartum like that, that first kind of 30, 60 minutes is crucial to get as much protein in as possible to really kind of set them up for the day. Is that, is there like a time period where you're like, really wanna like get that protein in?

[00:31:12] Lily Nichols: I mean, it's not gonna be like a

[00:31:14] Dr Renee White: do or die thing,

[00:31:15] Lily Nichols: it's not gonna fall if you don't do it like. Immediately or get a massive amount in right away because, you know, people have different digestive systems. Like I, I know there's some people where I can talk about the importance of getting a protein sufficient breakfast until the cows come home and they just, like, they can't do it.

[00:31:31] Their body is just not ready for it. But I would try to get something down the hatch in the first 30 to 60 minutes. Mm-hmm. And likely if you're nursing and your baby's nursing through the night, you're probably gonna wake up hungry. Mm-hmm. Possibly even in the middle of the night. You know what I mean?

[00:31:47] But I would, I would try to get something in early, even if you can only get a snack in before you go through. There's so many like baby tasks that have to be taken care of first thing right. So. If all you can get in is in is a snack first thing, then make sure that you're following up with a substantial meal not too long after that. But yes, generally I'd agree. Try to get some food in 'cause you're just gonna be, if you don't, you're just gonna be running on stress hormones. Mm-hmm. You know, our body has all sorts of really useful, you know, backup mechanisms for making sure that we have enough energy at all times.

[00:32:24] And so in the morning, if you're not eating right away, you, your adrenals simply kick in, pump out some cortisol that tells your liver to release some stored glucose. And you're like, good and you might feel fine for a little while. You might even feel kind of energised 'cause the, the feeling of running off of cortisol is, is kind of like, you know, it's an adrenaline rush.

[00:32:45] Yeah. So that's exactly what it's,

[00:32:46] Dr Renee White: yeah a bit of a high yeah.

[00:32:47] Lily Nichols: Some people get a little bit addicted to that actually. Yeah. But you crash and burn after a while, and especially when your energy requirements are so high. If you're continually leaning into that backup, you know, cortisol surge to keep you going, that that's a recipe for a whole, a whole host of issues. Um, burnout and mental health issues being, being, some of them, it's, it's a good idea to try to eat.

[00:33:14] Dr Renee White: Yeah, absolutely. I'd love to switch gears a little bit. Given your immense knowledge in gestational diabetes, if a mum has GD like history, is there kind of like a different approach to her nutrition when she's breastfeeding? Like is it kind of very similar to what we were talking about, or would, would you recommend a few tweaks or suggestions?

[00:33:42] Lily Nichols: I mean, from what I've stated already, I don't think I would change a whole lot. I would still definitely lean protein forward. Mm-hmm. Uh, as much as possible for the blood sugar stabilization.

[00:33:55] But what's kind of interesting about gestational diabetes is in the immediate postpartum, you, 90% of the time, you're seeing a rather significant improvement in, uh, blood sugar control because you don't have the insulin resistance of pregnancy anymore. Yeah. Um, it's pretty much gone when the placenta comes out.

[00:34:18] Now, of course, there's the challenge of interrupted sleep at night that can kind of, you know, wreak havoc on fasting blood sugar at some time points. So that's something to consider. But you, if you're nursing especially, you're burning a lot of glucose in the production of, of breast milk. So usually I'm not gonna do a whole lot different in the immediate postpartum.

[00:34:45] And I will say I even oftentimes don't have clients. It depends, I mean, if you have like type one diabetes, it's a different story. But if it's truly a gestational diabetes thing, you know, came on during the pregnancy, or even if it's a preexisting insulin resistance kind of a thing that, that got more severe during pregnancy, like there was pre-diabetes beforehand.

[00:35:06] I'm usually not really closely monitoring blood sugar, at least in like the first month. Like just give yourself a rest from all that. Like the, the, you know, downstream, uh, negative metabolic consequences on baby is not really gonna be as much of a thing at this point. Like, you did your work during the pregnancy, now enjoy your baby, nourish yourself, rest, replenish, survive.

[00:35:35] Mm-hmm. But don't add the incessant blood sugar checks on top of newborn land. Yeah. Like really at this time point. Part of the reason that they do a, a glucose check somewhere between six to 12 months postpartum, six to 12 weeks, sorry postpartum is to rule out like an overt type two diabetes that needs medication management like that is mm-hmm really the role of that check. And for the majority of women, they're going to be okay with their blood sugar early on because of that like crazy energy expenditure of recovering from from birth and also producing breast milk. But even if there is some pre-diabetes lingering, most of the time it's not gonna be something that at this time point requires like medical management.

[00:36:27] It just comes down to like food. So yeah. Yes. Like follow up with your provider, but enjoy the early newborn phase. Go protein heavy. Be okay. I wouldn't go completely hog wild and throw everything you learned about your blood sugar out the window during the pregnancy. Mm-hmm. Like those same principles can still apply, but because your portion sizes need to be so much larger. Mm-hmm. You may not only be eating more protein and fat, but you may also be eating proportionally more carbohydrates because your energy needs are higher.

[00:37:02] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:37:02] Lily Nichols: So that's. That's the part that I think is sometimes a little bit scary for some of the women who've been really carbohydrate intolerant in pregnancy say they could only max do maybe like 90 grams of carbs a day and they're like afraid to add even like an apple or something.

[00:37:20] Yes. And it's like, you know what you really need to eat right now. So like lean into the protein and fat and veggies and all this stuff that is, has no essentially no effect on your blood sugar, but also be open to adding in more portions of carbohydrates as well. Yeah.

[00:37:36] Dr Renee White: Uh, I'm so glad you touched on that 'cause I had a friend who had GD and like, you know, as you would, you've probably experienced yourself with assisting people. There just is this. First of all, I feel like they, there's this overwhelming for some people, like sense of shame, of like, I've done something wrong. Oh my goodness and now, and then they've put these, you know, as we said, some of the guidelines are just so like, bizarre to me. Yeah. And, and she reached out to me and she was like, oh my God, I'm just so sick of eating this food that they've told me that I have to eat and I'm starving.

[00:38:17] And I, again, I'm just like, you know, push your book over the, over the bed to the table. And I was just like, I want you to read this with a really open mind, because I know what you've been told, but maybe if you are happy and willing to experiment, this might really help you initially, because like they, you know, they're just drummed into their heads about like all these things and you know, as we are, as mums carrying and growing our babies, we get scared. We wanna be the best mum that we possibly can be. But there are these, some, I'm gonna say ridiculous guidelines that put these women in situations where they're just, you know, they're hungry, they're tired, they think they're doing the best thing.

[00:39:04] But you know, sometimes the research is really not supporting that and experimenting with, with these types of things. And as you say, like double down on the protein like eh, it might actually make you feel Yeah so much better.

[00:39:17] Lily Nichols: And if you're talking about somebody who like maybe followed more of a conventional gestational diabetes diet during pregnancy. Yeah. And not like what I'm talking about.

[00:39:27] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:27] Lily Nichols: Yeah. They need to throw that completely out the window. Like this is not typically the conventional GD management is fairly low in protein 'cause the guidelines are low in protein. Yeah. It's too low in fat. It's calorie controlled and the whole focus is on a consistent amount of carbohydrates at each sitting, but not too low carb because they give you all the warnings about low carb right? Yeah.

[00:39:51] So it's very, it's like, it's like diet, dogma, land. When people complain online about diet culture, like the conventional gestational diabetes diet is a hundred percent diet culture, like low calorie, low fat, control the carbs, but not too low. Make it the consistent amount at all times. So you have these like all this number crunching going on and kind of like Yes.

[00:40:16] Hyper obsession around food.

[00:40:18] Dr Renee White: Yes. And that's what did her head in.

[00:40:20] Lily Nichols: You can't stay full for very long because you're eating proportionally, so many more carbs relative to the amount of protein and fat that you're eating, that you're just starving all the time. You're like stuffed immediately after eating and then starving, like, yeah 30 minutes or 60 minutes later. And so that that approach is gonna crash and burn hmm in postpartum for sure, because it's not that your body, you know, can't handle burning some carbohydrates as I mentioned, you're actually, all of your energy burning is like ramped up in postpartum. It's just that you need proportionally to lean much more into the protein.

[00:41:00] Mm-hmm. Just when you're thinking, not even about, you know, the, the, the whole like micronutrients and breast milk and protein-rich foods are tend to be the richest and many of these micronutrients and all that. Your body just needs so much protein to heal from the birth. Mm-hmm. It's not just like blood sugar stability.

[00:41:18] Like your uterus is completely remodeling, your connective tissue is completely remodeling, your skin. Like all that skin that stretched on your belly is remodeling and now your, the skin on your breast is now stretching as your breast getting engorged and the milk comes in. Your thyroid is completely remodeling.

[00:41:37] You might have like a, a wound, you know, maybe you had a C-section. Yeah. You're recovering from major abdominal surgery. Maybe you had a, a tear or an episiotomy and your pelvic floor has a wound that needs to heal, like these things require protein. Anybody in like wound care land and dietetics will lean into protein, especially like high quality protein with some of these key amino acids that are, that are tricky to get or missing from plant foods.

[00:42:06] They'll lean into vitamin C, zinc and vitamin A. It's like, yeah. All the things that we would be getting more of if you lean heavily into protein, balanced with, you know, fresh produce and stuff on, on the side. Mm-hmm. You know, home cooked, old fashioned kind of meals, meat and veggies, like that really fills that void.

[00:42:28] Dr Renee White: Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So I wanna talk about that. I wanna talk about, let's talk about the actual food and produce that, you know, we would be making these meals out of. If you were faced to go with like your best friend, she's time starved, she's sleep deprived, just had a baby, what would be like your top three to five like non-negotiable foods that you'd be like, okay, this is where you're gonna get all your bang for your buck. What would you be? Or even like a recipe or something like that where you're like, okay, this would have all of those things in there.

[00:43:07] Lily Nichols: Okay, I'll, I'll name some things, some things that, um, I found really hit the spot in postpartum. Mm-hmm. And then also some things that are kind of my default if I bring people a meal when they're early postpartum.

[00:43:19] Dr Renee White: Yes. Love that.

[00:43:20] Lily Nichols: And these can also be things that you would prep in advance. Hidden liver meatloaf. Mm-hmm. That was like a top request early postpartum. And I had trained my husband how to make the recipe so that I didn't have to do it, but Hidden liver meatloaf with like, you know, sweet potatoes roasted right in the pan with it or something like that.

[00:43:41] Excellent. You're getting a lot of protein, a lot of iron, zinc, vitamin A, choline B12. I mean, you're just like knocking 'em all outta the park. Yeah. Pulled pork. Mm. I love that one because it takes so little effort to put together. Yeah. So make a big, like big pork shoulder. I got a recipe for that I think in some of my books. Maybe on my website too.

[00:44:03] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:44:03] Lily Nichols: And I usually serve that with like sweet potato fries and, you know, um. Coleslaw or something like that. You, you could have it in a bun too. You like your postpartum eat?

[00:44:14] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Uh, I love pulled pork nachos. Like, that's like my go-to. I like, yeah, I'm the same. I make a big batch and I'm like, okay, we are doing, we can do nachos, we can do tacos. We are very in like a Mexican vibe kind of family.

[00:44:27] Lily Nichols: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

[00:44:28] Dr Renee White: I'm just like, eat like poke bowl. Like you could do anything with pulled pork.

[00:44:33] Lily Nichols: Any, anything with, yeah, anything with pulled pork. So yeah, have fun with it do serve it with whatever you want essentially, but like plan your meals around the big protein and the protein that is not as labor intensive to make, so the meatloaf is a bit labor intensive.

[00:44:49] You gotta get your hands in the meat and all the stuff and, but you know, maybe half an hour on the prep time of it. Yeah. But my meatloaf recipe, the one that's in real Food for pregnancy uses, um, two pounds of ground beef and then it has the hidden liver in there, so you make like a big batch of it.

[00:45:05] Mm-hmm. And that could be frozen if you wanted to. The pulled pork freezes super well, that is one I highly recommend prepping in advance. Like what I did in my second pregnancy when I was better prepared is I would just make, once a week I'd make a double batch of some, some meal. Mm-hmm. That would freeze well, yeah, soups and stews tend to be the easiest casserole kind of things. And so I had pulled pork already in my freezer. You pull that out, let it defrost overnight. You got your, you know, your protein for the next day or two already done. I would say maybe like a salmon salad. Mm-hmm. So that would just use like, uh, cans of salmon or you could Okay.

[00:45:43] Do like cooked leftover salmon if you have that available. Mm-hmm. Um, with some like minced veggies. And I do mine with like a sour cream to mix it together. I'm not the huge, just like mayonnaise flavors not my favorite thing. So yeah, that's what I do. But you could do whatever you want. Um, that would be a, a really easy one that you could put in sourdough bread for sandwiches.

[00:46:05] You could eat it with chips. You could eat it with, you know, veggie slices or crackers, just, but it's high protein, high Omega-3. Um, the canned salmon is, you know, shelf stable. So it could be something you have in your pantry that you're just adding in. Mm. Maybe some minced, like bell pepper or minced celery. And then, uh, usually like mince some pickle in there too, but it'd be like, yeah.

[00:46:30] Dr Renee White: Yum.

[00:46:30] Lily Nichols: Simple to put together. You could do it in a big, big batch and eat it over a couple days. I mean, I'm a big fan of eggs. Oh. For postpartum, you know? So any of the pre-made egg things. The, the frittatas, the egg bakes, the egg muffins, hardboiled eggs that you make into an egg salad.

[00:46:49] Like, or you can get somebody to cook you eggs in the morning if you want 'em fresh, but just like. Fit in eggs somewhere. They're great. Yeah, those would be some big ones like pot roast. Mm-hmm. Any kind of like slow cooker stewed meat. Yes. Situation is, is a low effort, high value kind of a thing. You're getting the hydration and the electrolytes, you're getting the collagen, you're getting the iron, you're getting the protein. So, you know, I, I have so many different versions of slow cooker meat recipes, but yeah, I, I would do some like slow cooked beef also, I think would be a, a really good choice.

[00:47:27] Dr Renee White: That's such good advice there. Uh, I, after I read your book, I was hunting for, so we kind of have our doula services here in Australia and I was trying to find somewhere where like our butcher had already pre integrated the liver into the mince to make like a, like a cottage pie type thing.

[00:47:49] And it is now starting to pick up as a trend here in Yeah australia. To have at butchers, the mince, and then the liver actually in it already, which I think is such a game changer. I'm not good with handling liver, I have to say. Yeah. I'm just like, it just, I'm just like, oh, I, I just dunno how I feel about it.

[00:48:11] Like it's a bit squirmy for me, but they've already pre minced it, so there's some really great butchers out there who are like, cottoning on to us, us ladies who are like, Hey, we want more iron in our mince dammit.

[00:48:24] Lily Nichols: They're doing that in the states too. Yeah. So there, there's a couple brands that have that available and, and a lot of the smaller farms that do meat shares. We'll have a, an ancestral blend or an organ blend and Yeah. Yeah. That's, that's fabulous. Then you can use that for, I mean, anything you, your, yeah. Hidden liver meatballs. You got tacos. Um, yeah, like cottage pie or shepherd's pie. Yeah. That's a really great one to pre-prep if you can spare a pan to go in your freezer.

[00:48:53] Yeah. Have the space for it. Yeah. Those kinds of like casserole that are like really dense in meat, but like you have so many portions, like Yes. Oh my God, it's the best. Those are great. Those are fantastic. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:49:06] Dr Renee White: I've got one last question before, um, we dive into our very quick rapid fire at the end, and it might be a little bit of a controversial one, so happy for you to, you know, steer clear if you want to or whatever it is.

[00:49:21] But I, I'd love to know your opinion on restrictive diets, you know, things like keto or paleo or vegan while breastfeeding with those types of things are we kind of, are we looking at it going, Hmm, okay, that's fine, but you're gonna have to supplement here, there, and everywhere.

[00:49:43] Lily Nichols: Yeah, that's a good question. All of those diets I have like slightly different opinions on too. Yeah. So I can't say that everything would apply to all of them. Like somebody who's, who's paleo and usually paleo, you're avoiding grains, legumes, and dairy for the most part and then there's all sorts of different versions of paleo.

[00:50:05] Dr Renee White: Yeah. It's a bit of a spectrum, isn't it?

[00:50:08] Lily Nichols: So it's a bit of a spectrum. And then you have the people who avoid anything that has lectins and anything that has, you know, you know they're not doing nightshades or they're not doing, yeah, yeah. So it gets a bit complicated, I would say as long. So one of the challenges with paleo is that it often ends up being default low carb, or is just default lower carb because you've taken out some of the easiest carb sources.

[00:50:35] Mm-hmm. Then you're relying mostly on winter squash. Fruit, vegetables and fruit. 'cause you've taken out grains, legumes, and dairy, which also all have carbohydrates in them. So that can be a little bit challenging. Not that some people don't thrive doing low carb. I mean, I've, I've worked with people across like the full spectrum of, of carb intakes.

[00:50:56] And with my gestational diabetes experience, I've worked with a lot of women who remain low carb during breastfeeding and it, it can be done. You just have to make sure that you're eating enough food first and foremost, which can be a little tricky because low carb tends to be somewhat of an appetite suppressant.

[00:51:16] So it can have that effect. It can also make it a bit more challenging. Your body spills, electrolytes in your urine more readily on a low carb diet than a diet that has some carbs in it. So that can be a little challenging from a hydration standpoint. Yeah. So if somebody who's low carb, they might have to go.

[00:51:37] Really be diligent, especially on sodium. Um, yeah, interestingly enough, but like more sodium, more potassium, more magnesium. And the, the bigger thing with like the super low carb keto is like, is your body adapted to it or not? If you're already adapted to it and you feel good, you can most, for the most part, carry on and everything's fine.

[00:51:58] Yeah. The issue that I see coming up is you have somebody who did ate whatever in pregnancy, but it mm-hmm. Whatever it was, it wasn't low carb, and then they're postpartum and they wanna start keto for weight loss.

[00:52:11] Dr Renee White: Mm-hmm.

[00:52:11] Lily Nichols: And if you go from a high carb diet to fully ketogenic diet and like a ketogenic diet, you're often at like maybe max 30 to 50 carbs a day. It depends on how you count and which rules or whatever you're following. But that drastic cut in carbs is a huge metabolic shift for your body. And that's where you have the so-called keto flu from the electrolyte dumping. Uh, you're gonna have hydration issues. When you have hydration issues, you're gonna have supply issues.

[00:52:41] Yeah. Your body has to completely reorient to burning fat for fuel. Instead of switching between fat and glucose ketones and glucose on and off, you're now like fully in ketosis. And so that is something where if you're going to like transition to keto and you're breastfeeding, first of all, it's not something that I recommend in the early couple months, like go easy on yourself.

[00:53:06] But you have to be really like gradual with the way that you're decreasing your carbohydrates, really on top of hydration. And still first and foremost, make sure you're getting enough calories in. So I typically, I'm not switching somebody to something like a keto diet. So their milk supply is like fully, fully established and like yeah. It, it, for whatever reason, clinically is the only best option for their scenario. Yeah. Most of the time I'm like not going that, that low.

[00:53:34] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:53:35] Lily Nichols: Again, and I'm saying this and also acknowledging there are people who do great, who are fully keto adapted and do great nursing and there's no issues.

[00:53:43] Mm-hmm. So it's like it's all about the context. Yeah. The carnivore is like a more extreme version of keto because you've got essentially no carbs. It's all, all animal foods. Maybe if you have a bit of dairy in there, you might get a bit of carbs, but it's not personally my favorite. I think you're gonna have to go have the same considerations.

[00:54:04] With keto, you're probably gonna need a lot of supplemental electrolytes. You're definitely gonna want a, like a prenatal vitamin to fill in some of the potential gaps like vitamin C for example. You would wanna have as much variety as possible, so not just like red meat. You wanna have seafood in there, you wanna have organs in there.

[00:54:24] You're probably gonna need a calcium supplement. You're just not gonna get enough calcium with having like absolutely no dairy. Again, depending on how people do their carnivore, I mean, your, your best calcium source would be like fish canned with the bones, like

[00:54:39] Dr Renee White: Yeah, I was gonna say,

[00:54:40] Lily Nichols: can beans people just don't do that every day?

[00:54:43] Dr Renee White: No, they don't.

[00:54:43] Lily Nichols: There's all these, you know, there's all these ways to potentially hack and make things work that are just not realistic. Nobody's gonna do it. Yeah. And then with, you know, vegan is like a whole other can of worms nutritionally. That is the, the biggest mismatch for, for breastfeeding because your, your diet is devoid of a number of really key micronutrients, so absolutely you'd want a really high quality prenatal vitamin.

[00:55:11] You'd be lacking DHA, so you wanna a, a LG based DHA, but even like bigger than filling in the micronutrient gaps that can be, can certainly be done with supplementation is you're not getting an adequate amount of protein and complete protein. Yeah. And that's just gonna be a disaster for recovery. Mm-hmm.

[00:55:31] And that's, that's what I've seen clinically. I know, I know many women, but, you know, people get all up in arms about my stance on, on, uh, vegan diets and I put a whole chapter on that in Real Food for Fertility because it, you know, it warrants a greater discussion, but at the end of the day, it's like the human body's incredibly adaptable and it can pull off amazing feats, which is why we have so many women who have had vegetarian pregnancies and have, you know, you know, they, they are able to, to, to give birth and nurse and, and all the things that said, the postpartum recovery trajectory.

[00:56:07] What, what I hear from people, 'cause I hear from a lot of recovered vegetarians and vegans. Mm-hmm. Is that like they didn't know what They didn't know. They thought everything was fine.

[00:56:17] Dr Renee White: Yeah right.

[00:56:18] Lily Nichols: Until they had like, oh, I had an omnivorous pregnancy and I had an omnivorous postpartum, and everything was like night and day. Right. Like, I didn't. Scare during the birth or if they did it healed really quickly. 'cause guess what? That takes a lot of collagen and high quality protein to heal that Well, and or maybe they had like some, you know, postpartum mood challenges that they just thought, well this is my default. 'cause I've always struggled with mental health my whole life.

[00:56:50] And then they switched to being an omnivore, eating plenty of nutrient dense foods and they're like, wow, I had no mood issues postpartum this time, but I had it with my first two when I was vegan. And I have enough of those types of stories.

[00:57:04] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[00:57:04] Lily Nichols: That even beyond, like I can give you all the data on like things like nutrient transfer into breast milk. I teach a whole two hour webinar via the Women's Health Nutrition Academy on nutrient transfer in breast milk. And you can look at micronutrient by micronutrient the various nutrients that are commonly lacking. Mm-hmm. And that if they're lacking cause significant harm to the baby. Like I can give you that sort of information.

[00:57:31] Mm-hmm. It's all there. But what the difference is, like in the stories that I hear from women themselves when, you know, they, they made it through before but not unscathed. You know what I mean?

[00:57:46] Dr Renee White: Yeah, absolutely

[00:57:47] Lily Nichols: and like hindsight is 2020 and you're like, wow, it could actually go a heck of a lot smoother than it did. Right. Our, our society, and I, I hope I don't add to this, but like it really kind of leans into this postpartum is hard and terrible and all these things go wrong, and your whole life falls apart and your body falls apart and everything's just in shambles and Yeah. You know reels on social media and little video snippets don't really help the cause they're funny.

[00:58:15] But like, it perpetuates this idea that it's like hard and terrible. And it's not that it isn't hard, but it doesn't have to be quite as hard. Yeah. And the healing journey doesn't have to be quite so painful. Like, it, it can, even with the hard parts, still be a little bit easier when they're better nourish ly.

[00:58:33] You know what I mean?

[00:58:34] Dr Renee White: Yeah. And, and like, it's so true. Like you, you've already got like this beautiful human being to look after and you, you do have the sleep deprivation, you do have the hunger and the recovery and all of those things. But as you say, like things are hard enough, you know, as a baseline when you become a mum, if there's things that you can kind of like, I don't know, like ease it a little bit, make it a smoother transition to becoming a mum.

[00:59:03] Like they're the things that you would be grasping for. Like similar to like, and that's why I say tell people. Prep like a doomsday. Trust me. Yeah. It's one thing that you can do before the baby arrives, where it's kind of like, you don't know what type of baby you're gonna have. Like you could have a barnacle baby who you just can't put down and 'cause you know, you think you're gonna have all this time.

[00:59:23] Like I did, I had two batches of spaghetti bolognese in the freezer and thought I got this. You know, like, I'm gonna have all this time in the world. Yeah. And my baby was just like, Nope. Yep. You know, like if there's some things in there that you can kind of add to your toolkit to help and, and make it a bit easier, why not?

[00:59:42] Lily Nichols: Yeah. And you, I mean, you can only cook so many things with a, a baby strapped to your chest. You know what I mean? Yeah. Right. Like try chopping a whole bunch of vegetables when you have a baby strapped to you. It's like you really need to sleep your pelvic floor, like needs you to like sit down. You know what I mean? Yeah. Lay down.

[01:00:00] Dr Renee White: Lay down. Get horizontal ladies.

[01:00:02] Lily Nichols: Yes. Seriously.

[01:00:05] Dr Renee White: That's all been amazing lily, thank you so much. I know everyone's gonna be so pumped by this episode because I, I always learn so much from you, which is so good. But we are gonna jump into our rapid fire now. So our last three questions, which we ask all of our guests, are you ready?

[01:00:21] Lily Nichols: I'm ready.

[01:00:22] Dr Renee White: All right. What is your top tip for mums?

[01:00:26] Lily Nichols: Hmm. Accept help.

[01:00:29] Dr Renee White: Love that. Love it. Do you have a go-to resource or something, uh, besides your books, which I think are amazing, everyone needs to get those. But like, was there something that maybe someone gifted you or you had through your pregnancy or postpartum and it could have been a book or a workshop or something. It could even be a quote. I've had some, some guests recite like a poem that kind of like that was their kind of go-to, that they leaned into during motherhood.

[01:00:58] Lily Nichols: Ooh, during motherhood. I, it's so funny. The one that I'm thinking of is like. Kind of lame. It's kind of silly.

[01:01:06] Dr Renee White: If you're happy to share it, then go for it.

[01:01:07] Lily Nichols: But I wish, like I, I wish I had gotten it sooner. Like I got a little, one of those salt lamps that's on like Yes. Has like a dimmer switch Yes. That I had at my bedside so that when you have the middle of the night diaper changes or whatever, I mean, I learned my lesson the first time around, like, don't put a newborn baby in cloth diapers.

[01:01:28] Like you idiot, you're, they're just gonna be peeing out the side of them all the time. You're gonna be changing their heat constantly. If they're just in like a disposable, they can sometimes go like maybe even the whole night without even noticing. Yes. 'cause they absorb so dang much. Yes. So you only have to wake up to change 'em if they go number two.

[01:01:46] Right? Yeah. Anyways, lessons learned, that's one of them. But the um, salt lamp with the dimmer switch mm-hmm was so great because you didn't have to like, I hated having to like wake up. Turn on a super bright light and you're like, yeah, I'm blinded and like trying to change the baby. Now the baby's crying.

[01:02:02] Now they're woken up 'cause they have all this bright light. Yeah. And I could just put that little salt lamp on a low, low dim enough to see and we could get back to sleep easily. That thing saved my butt.

[01:02:13] Dr Renee White: That yeah, that that is true though because I don't know. But there is the research behind that 'cause people are like, oh my god, I woke up like eight times last night with a baby. So the research tells us it's not the amount of times you wake up, it's how quickly you get back to sleep. That's the determinant of I guess your sleep quality overnight.

[01:02:36] Lily Nichols: Interesting.

[01:02:37] Dr Renee White: So that's so true. Keep the lights low, get back into bed as quickly as you can and get back to sleep.

[01:02:43] Lily Nichols: But also, can I just add one more? This is supposed to be rapid fire and I'm ruining it, but sorry.

[01:02:48] Dr Renee White: That's okay.

[01:02:49] Lily Nichols: Go to sleep early, like the first time around. Yes. I was like trying to hang on to evenings with my husband, so I'd be like, oh, we got the baby to sleep. Okay, now let's watch a movie. Like, yeah, idiot.

[01:03:01] No, no, don't go watch a movie. Go to sleep at like 7:30 PM like you're gonna get the longest newborn stretch of sleep before they wake up at that time. Like, because they're gonna be up at like 10 30, 11, 11 30, ready to nurse or whatever, and then you're just going to sleep and you're exhausted. No, no. Go to sleep super early, stay horizontal for like 12 hours knowing that you are going to get interrupted in the interim and you can patch together enough sleep.

[01:03:30] Yes. I was so dumb the first time around to just be like staying up. No, no. Go to sleep. To sleep. Sleep. Even if it's like seven. Just go to sleep.

[01:03:39] Dr Renee White: Yeah, go to sleep at the time that your toddler would go to sleep at

[01:03:43] Lily Nichols: seven. Yes. Yes, yes. I wish my toddlers would go to sleep at seven, but yes, seven. That'd be great.

[01:03:50] Dr Renee White: Yeah. Okay. Final question. And we borrow this one off um, the lovely Brene Brown. What do you keep on your bedside table? Well, the salt lamp obviously.

[01:04:00] Salt lamp. Yep.

[01:04:01] Lily Nichols: A glass of water. I mean, my bedside table does not really have a lot. I have my salt lamp and a glass of water.

[01:04:08] Dr Renee White: Love that.

[01:04:09] Lily Nichols: It's pretty straightforward.

[01:04:10] Dr Renee White: No, that's fine. Uh, we had a previous guest say dust for her bedside table

[01:04:15] Lily Nichols: yeah, that's probably also there. Yeah, I'll about that.

[01:04:17] Dr Renee White: I think we can all just be, we can all just Dust is a mainstay. Like that's absolutely given.

[01:04:23] Lily Nichols: Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[01:04:24] Dr Renee White: Um, Lily, it's been so amazing to have you back on the podcast. Thank you so much for all those listeners out there. Where can we find your books? Where can we find workshops? Where can we find you on the socials? Let us know.

[01:04:37] Lily Nichols: Yes. So my main hub online is my website, Lily nichols rdn.com. That has a link up at the top in the little menu bar for books. Click that you'll see. Real food for fertility, Real Food for Pregnancy, Real Food for Gestational Diabetes, and where to get them first and foremost.

[01:04:58] I'd say just to clarify, 'cause I get a surprising amount of questions on this. If you were not pregnant, you want the fertility book. If you are currently pregnant, you want the pregnancy book. If you're immediate postpartum, you also probably want the pregnancy book. Yes. Because that has the whole chapter on postpartum recovery.

[01:05:18] But if you're like beyond the early nursing and you're like, I'm not pregnant, but I'm thinking about another baby. You want the fertility book. Does that make sense? Absolutely. You only need the gestational diabetes book if you get diagnosed with gestational diabetes. Yeah. Because I cover prevention, uh, for gestational diabetes and testing and the pros and cons of all the methods.

[01:05:37] That's all in the pregnancy book. Mm-hmm. Like, I try to make it real simple, like, you are pregnant, you get the pregnancy book, you're not pregnant, you get the fertility book. But I realise that not everyone fits into distinct categories and then it's, yeah. Anyways, I answer that question like several times a day, every day, so I have to say it.

[01:05:56] Dr Renee White: Okay. We, we've set the record straight.

[01:05:57] Lily Nichols: Set the record straight here. Uh, let's see. My website also has my blog. There's hundreds of articles up there. You want postpartum recipes. Mm-hmm. And meal prep tips. There's a blog on that. Real food Postpartum recovery meals. Search that on my site. It'll come right up.

[01:06:12] You want the article on protein requirements in pregnancy, search it. There's an article on it. There's an article on a lot of things. So use the little search bar. Mm-hmm. It's very helpful. There's freebies on my site. There's all sorts of stuff. As for, you said workshops? Um, yeah, technically I'd call them webinars.

[01:06:31] I have individual webinars at the Women's Health Nutrition Academy. I have one on postpartum recovery and nutrient repletion. I also have one on breastfeeding, which focuses on the nutrient transfer into breast milk. So all that research about vitamin D and vitamin A and DHA and a whole slew of other nutrients.

[01:06:49] There's a whole two hour webinar on that. Hmm. And then, let's see, as far as health professionals, I do mentor professionals via the Institute for Prenatal Nutrition. Mm-hmm. Pretty high level, hands-on kind of a program and we only run it once a year. So if you want information on that. It links out from my main site on the services page, but you can also go to institute for prenatal nutrition.com for that info.

[01:07:14] Oh, and social media I'm on Instagram. I'm on the other platforms very sparingly, so probably find me on Instagram. Mm-hmm. And my handle is the same as my site. So it's Lily Nichols, RDN.

[01:07:27] Dr Renee White: Amazing and if you do start following Lily on Instagram, you get to see all the delicious meals that she makes as well. I love seeing your photos.

[01:07:36] Lily Nichols: I try to make some the food stuff. Yeah.

[01:07:38] Dr Renee White: That's so good. I'm like, what's Lily eating today? I, I just love it.

[01:07:42] Lily Nichols: That looks good today.

[01:07:43] Dr Renee White: Yeah. I'm like, oh, that looks good. I'm gonna make that this week.

[01:07:47] Lily Nichols: I post so intermittently. But you know, there's a thing about like, all these people in the nutrition space arguing about the best thing is this, and the best thing is that, and that person's an idiot, whatever.

[01:08:01] And I'm like show me what you're eating because like at the end of the day, most of us agree with like 90 to 95% of what the other person is saying. And if you just see what they're eating, it's pretty, it's pretty telling, it's pretty straightforward, right? Yeah, absolutely. So I, I do like to show that, 'cause I also like to have people see that a lot of the meals I'm eating are not ridiculously complicated.

[01:08:28] Yeah. It's a lot of like, you make a protein and a veggie and you combine it on a plate. Yeah. Like easy, right? Yeah. It's, it's not ridiculously complicated and, and I'm not somebody who really wants to be spending, as much as I love cooking, I really do. I don't wanna spend all day in the kitchen. So I'll do fancy things for holidays, but the day to day is really kind of straightforward.

[01:08:49] Dr Renee White: Yeah.

[01:08:49] Lily Nichols: So, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Good inspo there. Yeah.

[01:08:51] Dr Renee White: Love it. Absolutely love it. Thank you so much again for coming on. Really, really appreciate it and everything that we've spoken about, we're gonna have all those links in the show notes. But yeah, Lily, thank you so much.

[01:09:03] Lily Nichols: Awesome. Thank you.

[01:09:05] Dr Renee White: Thanks. All right guys. Until next time, see you.

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