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NBA hall of Famer Tim Hardaway is considered one of the best point guards of his generation.

On this episode, we discuss Tim's new book, Killer Crossover with him and his co author Jake Udy.

Following Tim's distinguished college career at UTEP, he was selected in the first round of the 1989 NBA Draft by the Golden State Warriors.

He soon became a household name.

In Killer Crossover, Hardaway shares stories from his tough upbringing in Chicago through his collegiate career and on to the NBA.

As a part of Run TMC with.

Fellow Warriors Mitch Richmond and Chris Mullen, he immediately established himself as one of the top players in the league, joining the Miami Heat in 1996.

And along with teammates Alonzo Mourning, Dan Marley and Jamal Mashburn, he would become a main protagonist in one of the most contentious rivalries in all of basketball with the New York Knicks.

Killer Crossover is the story of a man who worked his way from humble beginnings to becoming an All Star at the highest level, not to mention a father to a future NBA standout, as well as all the trials and tribulations that come along with being one of the best in the game.

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Be sure to grab a notebook before you listen to this entertaining episode with NBA hall of Famer Tim Hardaway and Jake Udy, the co author of Tim's new book Killer Crossover.

Hello and welcome to the Hoop Heads podcast.

It's Mike Clemsing here without my co host Jason Sunkel tonight, but I am pleased to be joined by Jake Udy and basketball hall of Famer Tim Hardaway, the co authors of the new book Killer Crossover.

Gentlemen, welcome to the Hoop Heads pod.

Hey, thanks for having us.

Hello.

Thrilled to have you guys on.

Want to start with a question for you about how the idea for the book came to be and then how the two of you got connected to make this project a reality.

So, Tim, was it something that you had been thinking about putting your.

Putting your career down on paper or where did the idea come from originally?

Well, thanks for having us on.

I appreciate it.

And you know, I love talking about the book.

I love talking about, you know, where I come from and, and, and what made Tim Hardway who Tim Hardway was on the basketball court and off the court.

And I've been, I.

People have been telling me for 10, 15 years, man, you need to write a book.

You need to write a book.

You need to write a book.

And I was thinking, Tim Donovan, I was just thinking about it.

Tim Donovan, media guy from, for the Miami Heat.

He's with the New York Knicks for a while, you know, with Pat Riley.

Danny came to Miami Heat and he said, hey, Tim, this guy called me Jake and he said, I know.

He said, tim, I know you've been wanting to write a book.

You've been, you've been talking about, I hear the rumbles, you know, between me and you when we talking, you know, and I always told you to write a book.

And I feel, I feel very, very confident and comfortable with Tim and his decisions.

And we became, you know, very, very good friends and almost family, me and Tim Donovan.

And he said, you, you need to call Jake.

And I said, all right, I called Jake and we started talking.

And I like what he was talking about.

He was telling me some books that he wrote for different people in the NBA and, you know, retired players in NBA.

Michael Cooper.

And I was like, all right, let me check him out.

So I looked around, looked, looked him up.

I called him back.

I was like, all right, yeah, let's do it.

And I'm gonna tell you this.

There's been probably five or six guys that come to me and was writers and wanted to write my book.

But, you know, I know people.

I, you know, you got to feel comfortable.

You got to feel comfortable.

And I just felt comfortable with Jake, you know, and we just started talking and talking, and one day he said, next week, let's start doing it.

Let's start.

Let's start writing a book.

And every Tuesday or every Monday, I think every Monday at the same time, we just was talking for about two hours.

Just talking, just talking, just talking about, you know, what I want in there, how I wanted it.

We were in chapter by chapter.

He kept sending me, sending it to me, right.

You know, every month.

Just write.

I mean, just reading, reading, reading.

So that's how I started, man.

That's how I started.

And Jake, you know, kudos to him.

Wow, that was such an in depth answer.

Wow.

I did not expect anything like that.

I thought you were just like, ah, this guy's okay, let's see what we got going.

But that's.

That's great, Tim.

Thank you.

Yeah, I appreciate that.

That makes me feel good.

Thank you.

So, Jake, how did you get started a just in your writing career and then be working with former NBA players?

What was your process for getting to this point in your career?

Yeah, you know, I've been a writer for, I don't know, 20 years or something like that, working at small newspapers in New Jersey and then moving out here to Seattle and working for the Seattle Times and.

And then more national publications.

But I've always loved the NBA.

NBA has been a thing in my life that has been a steady, comforting thing throughout my entire life.

And I'm born in 1983, so the 90s is like mid-90s is right there.

And Tim Hardaway is at the center of the 90s.

You can't talk about the 90s without talking about Tim Hardaway.

And so I'd actually just finished a book with Michael Cooper, and of course, he's connected closely to Pat Riley through the Lakers.

And then Pat went to Miami, and I was speaking with Tim.

With Tim Donovan, the person that to partner with just mentioned about getting a quote for the Michael Cooper book with Pat Riley.

And I.

And I asked him about Tim and because obviously, Tim Hardaway is one of the greatest players of the 90s, and I had seen that he didn't have a book, and it seemed like it was darn time for that.

And I didn't know this backstory, you know, I emailed Tim Donovan.

Tim Donovan said, yeah, here's Tim Hardaway's cell phone.

Let you guys can get in touch and.

But the backstory is really cool that you guys.

That you checked it out and had had conversations about that, Tim.

About wanting to write a book and stuff.

It's just sometimes these work.

These things work out with really good timing.

And like Tim said, we just felt really comfortable.

And it was.

These books go so well when it's like, you know, we didn't know each other before, but it sort of turns into a friendship where we could just ask each other questions and build it.

And then.

And then before you know it, you have a book.

Like, you kind of.

The book almost happens by accident if it's done well between two people like this.

And that's exactly how it was.

Did you guys have an idea as you started the talk early on, did you have a feel for kind of how you wanted it to play itself out?

What were going to be the key points?

In other words, how soon into the process did you have an outline of what you wanted the book to look like?

Obviously, Tim, you're telling your story and you're going back to your childhood, and we'll dive into some of that.

But just going through the whole process, how did you come up with the outline for the book and sort of the way you wanted it to flow, how did that process work?

I'll tell you this, Jake, after every conversation, he ended with, all right, next week we gonna get into.

Into your family.

You know, high school, growing up as a baby, how far you can go, grammar school, high school, you know, college.

If we get to like, you know, say I get to, like, from as far as I know, when I was, you know, five years old, six years old, seven years old, whatever it is, all the way up to probably midway through high school, then he had come back.

I mean, that date right after that, he'll say, okay, we gonna.

We gonna go into something else, and then we'll come back to that.

Or he might say, hey, you know, I. I forgot to ask you this question.

So let me ask you this question.

Then we go and start another, you know, around the questions, stuff like that.

And I tell them about, you know, he say, well, what about your mom and dad?

Your parents you know, how did you know they bring you up.

What was that about?

This and that.

And I tell them as far as I can remember, how I was brought up, what my parents was about, and, you know, and he was, I mean, he was prepared, he was structural.

He was.

And like, he said he's been a writer for 20 years, so they, he knows what to ask, when to ask, what to think about next week.

Because this is what I'm gonna ask you next week.

So I want you to, you know, think about in depth what you're gonna say and how you're gonna say it, because this is going to be in a book.

So.

And I mean, that's what you're supposed to do.

You're supposed to prepare a person, get them ready, right?

Almost like coach, get them ready to, to, to know what he's going to.

What I'm going to talk about, how I go.

Going to talk about, and how I'm wanting to present it in the book.

And if there are other writers listening, like the, the, the book and the theme and the core sometimes jumps out halfway through or towards the end, and, and sometimes it's the most obvious thing, but you weren't thinking about it anyway.

Like Tim Hardaway killer crossover.

Like those are synonymous, right?

And so if you go into the book saying, I'm going to structure the book around the killer crossover, you're not going to get it right.

But if the book comes out and you're understanding the world and understanding the story, and then it clicks into this motif or this, you know, way to do it.

I don't know, you rubric then.

Oh, okay.

And then, and then, so, but you see, with Tim's life, you know, he grows up with such harsh conditions, and then he comes in, he's like a celebrity, you know, he's.

He's always sort of crossing over and going from one side to the other, and it's a really beautiful way to live.

And Tim, you know, if you, when you read the book and when you talk to him, he's always willing to learn and always willing to get better and always willing to go the other side if he needs to, you know.

And so this killer crossover motif by accident, but, but, but obviously started to sort of present itself, and that's why we titled it.

And it's also, you know, Tim be practically invented it for the modern world.

So that, that's how, that's how it grew.

And, and it grew as the book was coming.

Let me piggyback off that, you know, and I, And I. I should have said this first.

You know, I didn't want it to just be about the crossover.

I didn't want it to be just about how you invented the crossover.

I wanted to be on the work ethic that.

That.

What made Tim Hardaway.

What made.

Yeah, what.

How did I think.

Why did I think this way?

Why did I grew up this way?

How did I become this person, not only a basketball player, but a father?

You know, as I grew up as a kid, what was the.

You know, the.

The ups and downs, the negative stuff, the positive stuff, you know, that.

That's.

That's what people need to understand in a book, how a person really, truly grew up to become this basketball player or this man that he has become.

How do you make a point guard?

You know, how.

How has a point guard become a point guard?

Like, there's so many breadcrumbs from Tim's early life that now that you know it, you go, oh, my God.

Of course he's this floor general.

Of course he's this type of person on the court.

But you wouldn't know that, obviously, unless you go sort of in depth into it.

I felt like as I read through the book, one of the things that jumped out at me was the fact that the city of Chicago almost became a character in the book in terms of the way that the city shaped you, but also shaped your mother, shaped your father, shaped your interactions with your coaches as you're growing up and your high school coach and the fact that your grammar school coach coach you and then came with you to Carver High School and then left, and then you still stayed, which you think about how basketball is today.

Tim, you definitely wouldn't stay.

You definitely would not have stayed if you'd have been there now in.

In 2025, the way that.

The way that the basketball landscape is.

But just talk about the city of Chicago and how that shaped everything around you growing up, because I just felt like that was something that jumped out at me as I'm reading the book.

Well, I'm not gonna give a lot of stuff out, but when you read the book, you will see why I didn't transfer with my.

With Donald Pittman.

You gotta.

You gotta read the book and it'll tell you why.

Don't think I didn't try it, but it'll tell you why.

And yeah, you know, Chicago was hard, man.

Chicago was hard.

I mean, verbally, you know, it was hard.

I mean, physically, it was hard.

You had to have tough, tough skin.

You know, this old cliche you know, and I always remember this, sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me.

My mom always taught me that.

And when you growing up and I, and I tell kids that today, listening is a skill.

It's not an arc, it's a skill.

And if you listen, if you be quiet and listen, you can retain stuff what people has told you and it will help you out through your life.

That's if you want to listen.

Now, if you don't want to listen, then you fall in these tribes and tribulations and you can't get out.

You can't do this.

You can't do this.

See, I was the type of person that I knew how to de escalate a lot of things.

You know, even though people, you know, wanted to escalate stuff, I knew how to de escalate a lot of stuff.

You know, I knew how to navigate around stuff.

I watched and I, I, I'm, I paid attention to a lot of things that was happening to folks that didn't know how to get out of situations or that, that, that made the situation more difficult for everybody.

So like I said, I paid attention, I listened, I read the room.

Every time I come in the place, I read the room, I read the court, I, I come in the gym, I'm watching the game.

Even though I might be talking to you, I'm listening, I'm, I'm looking at this game.

I'm looking, I'm, I'm, I'm scouting, I'm scouting.

See who I'm playing, see who we playing, see what we need to do.

And that's the way Chicago brought you up.

And, and that's how I was brought up.

My dad always told me, when you walk in a room, survey the room, look at the room, make sure you understand them wrong and understand people.

And that's, that's, that's what Chicago is.

If you don't understand people and if you don't understand the room, and if you can't take constructive, I call it constructive criticism.

Some people call it hating, some people call it other stuff.

But you got to take constructive criticism or criticism to work on your game to get it better.

I was just going to ask.

I know you want to.

Yeah, you answered it with your father.

But how much of that is innate and how much of that is learned?

This reading the room, you know, are you, do you think that's something born in you or did you develop that, you know, quickly over time?

Quickly over time?

Because my dad always taught me that my Dad.

I mean, your parents have to teach you things too.

You just can't come in and you have to listen to your friends and how they talk and how they act.

And if you don't want to be that way, you got to be another way, you know, because sometimes your friends could be rude, your friends could be obnoxious, your root.

Your friends could be some.

And you got to know how to deal with them accordingly, too.

All right?

And I could be an.

And they got to know how to deal with me accordingly.

But I had some great friends in my life and my career that, you know, they told me and talked to me, and that's in the book too.

You got to have friends that you can listen to, but you got to have friends that will tell you the truth.

And.

And I always had friends that was around me that told me the truth and never, never, never lied to me and was in my face like, Tim.

No, I don't.

No, no, no.

You.

No, no.

You.

No.

And I'm like, okay, cool.

I understood and I listened and I went about my merry way.

But, you know, it's just about, you know, learning and understanding and.

But it comes from your parents.

You got.

Somebody has to tell you how to, you know, learn and deal with stuff so you could, so you could remember it and go and let it sink in when you out or when you're walking around.

When you add a basketball court by yourself and somebody trying to pick on you, somebody getting up in your face, you got to know how to, you know, handle yourself accordingly.

And if it need, you got to know, if they got friends there, you got to know that you by yourself.

It's just a lot of things that go into it.

And I knew how.

I understood that.

Thank you.

Do you think kids today miss out on some of those lessons because of the way the youth basketball environment is structured today for you?

Right?

You're.

You're growing up, you're going to courts, you bring your own net in some cases, and you're stringing the net up so that you can work on your game by yourself.

But you're playing lots of pickup basketball.

You're going all over the city.

And kids growing up today, they don't do that now.

They have more access to gyms and maybe they have more access to coaching in a lot of cases, but they don't get that sort of hard scrabble.

You're a 15 year old kid playing against grown men and having to figure out and navigate that and all the little social things that you just Talked about, right?

Of understanding and being able to read the room and know, hey, in this game I'm the best player, so I can do this.

But maybe in this game I'm only a 14 year old that I'm playing with guys who are playing in college or playing the pros or whatever it might be.

And you got to figure out how to navigate and do your roles and all those things.

So just how do you think that the way you grew up in the game with playground basketball and working on your game in that environment versus the way kids come up in the game today?

I'm just curious to get your thoughts.

I grew up playing against grown men every day.

So I play and people pick me on they team right away.

I got Tim, I'm first 1 pick because they want to have a guard that can control stuff, that can make plays, that can make stuff happen and give them the ball.

So when I, when I came, when I came to play, I knew I was, to me, I was the best one out there.

That's how I feel.

I probably wasn't athletically at that particular time, but I knew that I could compete and go out there and do what I need to do to win games.

But that was in, outside, outside with grown men.

But that was instill in me with my, my, my dad because he was a playground legend and Donald Pittman at an early age to put that confidence in me to don't fear nobody, to go out there and play against anybody and, and do well or conquer or bust their ass.

Whatever you wanted to call what, whatever you want to call it.

So, so my confidence came from, from them, you know, instilling in me and being tough.

I was always short, always short.

So I always had to, I always had to be tough.

I always had to be gritty.

I always had to be up in your face.

I always had to make things happen.

I always had to show people that I could do it, you know.

You know, oh, he not gonna be able to go to the hole.

He's not gonna be able to make a play around folks in the lane floaters.

He not, he, he not going to be able to do that.

So when a kid tells me that he can't go and work out by himself, that's insult, insulting to me.

That's very insulting to me because like you said, I went and did it by myself on concrete, went put nets up on the rim, had to climb up poles to, to, to.

You had to get the sweat and then you had to grab the pole and you had to go up there and get up there and hang on, you know, and be on the rim, sit on the rim, put it up on nets on both ends.

And I, and I was playing one on one on one by myself with imaginary people that I want to go against.

And I was playing hard.

And that's in a book.

And I tell kids, you got to have work ethic.

You gotta want it.

You gotta believe in yourself.

You got, you got, you got to work on your game, you know, stop, you know, being on these phones and you get access to gyms and some of these gyms, you, you in there by yourself.

If I.

When I got in the gym by myself for an hour, I was like, oh, my God, I got the whole gym.

Oh my.

Oh, it was like I was playing against 20 people.

Whole court, me, by myself.

That's how excited I was to have in the gym by myself to work on my game.

So when the kids tell me, yo, yeah, yeah, right.

It's insulting to me.

I can't.

I need somebody to shag the ball.

I need somebody to go get the ball.

It's a net up there.

Make the basket, it'll come down, you go get it.

Go down to the other end.

That's what that, you gotta, you gotta concentrate on making baskets.

You got to concentrate on making shots, floaters, layups.

And I'm talking about, I'm.

I'm outside on a half moon steel basket, you know, half moon.

Playing by myself, working on my game.

So, yeah, so it's just determination.

It's just determination.

Yeah.

And it came from listening to my, my dad.

If you want something, you got to go out there and get it.

You got to go out there and show people that you're the best.

And that's what I did each and every time I stepped on that court.

Tell me about your experience at utep.

And just when you think about Coach Haskins and the influence that he had on you, what's something that you learned from him that you carried with you throughout the rest of your career?

Patience.

From, from Don Haskins.

But Bob Walters, my, my high school coach and, and, and Don Haskins is about patience.

All right, I.

So I'm in high school and I was listening out, I'm listening to Chris Paul.

He was talking to some kids the other day and he said something that's totally true.

A friend of mine, a couple of friend of mine was playing on varsity as freshmen, and I knew I could play on varsity, and they put me on varsity, but I didn't play as Much.

And, and I caused dissension on the team because as a, as a, as a, as a junior and a senior, it's their turn to go out there and play.

And as a freshman coming in, thinking that, and I'm knowing that I'm better than them, but I should be playing, but I'm taking away, you know, their scholarships, their time to shine their, you know, their confidence and everything.

And I was, and my coach, he was like, you know what, I got to bring you off the bench.

I know you better than them, but I got to bring you off the bench.

And sometimes you're going to play, sometimes you're not going to play.

And my grammar school coach was a fossil coach.

He was like, yo, well let him play on a fossil team.

Then he was like, no, because if he does, then he gonna be tired because back then Fossil played first and then varsity played second.

So if I was too tired to play, it would, it would take away from the varsity.

So I was on the varsity just sitting on a bench waiting, waiting my turn.

So, but, but I learned a lot.

I really did learn a lot.

I learned about being patient.

I learned about how to play high school basketball because coming from grammar school to college is totally different.

Coming from high school to college is totally different and coaches are different.

And you go into another coach with his philosophy and I understand his philosophy, his game plan and what he wants you to do and how you want you to do it.

And it was the same thing at utep.

I went there and a guy named Jeep Jackson, God rest his soul, he, he, it was his turn to start at point guard.

He was going into his junior year and it was his turn to start it at, at the point guard.

And I had to wait my turn.

Even though I was, my skills was better than him.

He, he, he proved that he was ready to take over the reins as point guard at that particular time.

So I understood that.

So I went in, I played my role.

I only played sometimes 10 minutes game, sometimes I played 24 minutes game, sometimes I played 30 minutes a game.

But I had to understand patience and, and Don Nelson, Don Haskins taught me patience.

And he, and you know, and when you, when you.

I always knew how to take care of players.

I knew all how to run, run plays, how to throw the ball in and, you know, and, and make, make things happen.

But you, you got to know how to do it in a setting as a coach wants you to do it, and you got to implement your own stuff.

So how I, how I got better was Playing defense, stealing the ball, making layups, making things happen on the defensive end, on the offensive end for me, and.

And that's what Don Haskins told to be patient.

Bob Walters.

Don Haskins taught me to be patient and work on your game and always be ready.

But I was always ready, always worked on my game, and.

But I knew I belong.

But them other guys, it was their turn.

And when my turn happened my sophomore year, I took off, and I showed the coach that I was ready as a freshman.

But he said, I knew that.

I knew that.

And he said, you know who you remind me of?

I said, who?

He said, and back then I heard some rumblings, but he said, you know, Nate Archie Ball?

I said, get out of here.

I said, you.

I didn't know you, coach Nate Archie Ball.

He said, yeah, Nate came here, and after his juco years in juco, he came in, played two years for me.

I was like, wow.

And then Nate Archibald ended up being my assistant coach my junior senior year.

So, you know, and that really, really, really helped me out, propelled me to get to the NBA.

That's a case of being able to read the room, right?

It's another example of being able to understand, looking at what your coach wants.

I think this is something.

When I talk to people, players today, Tim, so many people, right, they want some bigger role, or they think they want to have this, or they.

They.

They're going after that, and they don't always understand, like, hey, sometimes you got to do what your coach wants you to do, what your coach needs you to do, and that's how you work your way into a lineup, or that's how you get the opportunity to have a bigger role.

That's how you get the opportunity to become a starter on your team, is by understanding what your coach wants.

So many guys fight against what their coach wants instead of figuring out, hey, this guy needs me right now to play defense and to get to the rim, he doesn't need me shooting threes.

And some guys just push back against that, and they never figure it out, and then they never get what they want.

And it sounds like you again, all through your career, there's.

There's a whole bunch of examples of you being able to understand that and figure out and navigate situations, to be able to get yourself into position, to be able to achieve the things that you want.

Correct?

All right, so obviously, your UTEP career, you guys go to the NCAA tournament four times.

You have a tremendous amount of success there.

It looks like you're going to be heading to the NBA.

You get an opportunity to go to Golden State, play for Don Nelson.

Run tmc.

I can honestly say I was surprised that Run tmc.

There it is right there.

That Run TMC only lasted.

I was, I was stunned that you guys are really only played together.

It was a little over two seasons, right, that you guys were.

That the three of you were together.

But the thing that was interesting to me is, is that as I read it, I could just feel and sense from the book the love that you had for those two guys, not just as human beings, but also just the way you guys meshed on the floor.

And clearly as you were doing it and experience it, it was tremendous.

And then you could just sense the.

The disappointment when Mitch got traded.

And then you would have loved to have been able to see what you guys were going to be able to do together.

So just talk about what made that pairing, that grouping so special, just from a basketball standpoint, but also just how you looked at those guys as people.

And as friends wanting to win.

Man, we just wanted to win.

And we would do anything to win.

You know, practice harder, play harder, come in a few hours early to work and understand, you know, what we like to run, how we like to run it.

I'm a point guard.

I knew how to get the ball to Chris.

I knew how to get the ball to anybody.

Mitch, I knew where they liked it.

In the pocket right here.

The only thing they had to do was catch and shoot lobs, whatever it was.

But it started, you know, the first day, very first day.

Because I love, first of all, we all three of us love to play basketball.

We love to be in the gym.

We were gym rats.

That's the first thing, you know, when you got three guys that love to be in the gym.

Gym rats love to, don't, don't like going home.

We want, if we can stay in the gym 24 7.

We're standing gym 24 7.

So that's how we was.

But we always wanted to learn.

We always wanted to get better.

We always, you know, wanted our teammates to get better.

We always wanted, you know, our teammates always wanted to.

To make us better.

But it just started from day one.

When I got there, Chris Mullen said, what you want to do, man?

I said, man, I haven't played basketball in three, four days.

I'm feigning to play basketball, and if I don't play basketball, I'm about to pass out.

I'm going to just go into confulction because, you know, I had to go To, I suppose had.

So.

So.

So right before the draft, I suppose had.

Draft was like that Thursday.

So that Sunday I was like.

I was supposed to go to Golden State and, And yeah, to the Bay Area.

And it was a typhoon at o' Hare Airport in Chicago.

I couldn't get out.

So we tried to get out.

I stayed there from 8pm until 2 in the morning.

And they finally canceled.

They said, you know, hey, we're not going to be able to get out.

Time ran out for the pilots and everything, so I had to get around.

I had somebody drop me off.

I had to get a cab all the way home from o' Hare Airport to the south side of Chicago.

That was a hundred dollars, all right, that I didn't have at that particular time.

But I tell you this, man, Then we went to New York.

My mom and, and I and my brother and.

And my agent, Henry Thomas.

The great Henry Thomas, man.

And we went there and.

And I still haven't played.

You know, my agent's like, no, you need to chill out.

You don't need to play.

My mom's like, nah, you don't need to play.

My brother.

Same way now, you don't need to play until you get drafted.

So in four days, I'm like, man, I haven't picked up a basketball.

What are y' all talking about?

So, so when I get to Golden State the next day after the draft, it was like, what, three, four o'?

Clock?

Chris Mull was like, what you want to do?

I said, man, I need to play basketball.

They gave me some stuff.

We went to go play, man.

We played for about three, three and a half hours.

And we.

And that's where the camaraderie started, you know, Mitch, Molly, myself, Rod Higgins.

And we just went and played.

I think Sharonis was there too.

And we just wouldn't play, man.

And we.

And you know, that's where the bond started.

But, you know, when he got traded was the beginning to the end.

We thought that we was going to be together throughout our careers, at least six, seven years there and try to make it happen and put some pieces around us to.

To try to contend for a championship.

Us three, we had to.

Us three was the core.

And only you had to do is put pieces around us that we had to make things happen.

And once, you know, Mitch got traded, that was the beginning to the end.

And it was kind of tough, man.

It was tough.

It was tough for him.

It was tough for mid Muller and it was tough for myself.

And man, you know, we.

We Never recovered from there.

It took us a while to, to and the warriors to recover from there.

And, man, I'm, I'm, you know, but we still are friends.

We still.

Our family.

Our families are families.

You know.

You know, we, we talk all the time.

Like I talked to Mitch today.

You know, I, I.

When I saw Chris Mullen, y' all saw him in the wheelchair shooting because he had Achilles surgery.

I'm like, mu.

You.

You just can't leave it alone.

You got to move around.

He got to move around.

I'm like, man, you ain't got to move around like that all the time.

And you showing us up because you 60 something years old, you in a wheelchair shooting and shooting it clean like you normally do.

So he was busting up at that.

Yeah, man, that's, that's what, that's.

That's how we are, man.

That's how we are.

And, and we love getting together and we love hanging out together, and we, and once we get together, we just.

We.

It's like a.

A comic view.

It's just like comic view, so you know that, that friendship will last forever.

Yeah.

That love for those guys came through in the book loud and clear.

I mean, there was no question, as you read the section about the Run TMC time, that the affection that you guys had for one another was crystal, crystal clear and fun to.

Obviously, just from a.

From a fan perspective, just a fun, A fun team to watch.

The way you guys played, each of you had your unique style and things that you guys brought to the T. Just made it a fun group to.

To.

To play.

That was probably your first introduction to the business of, of basketball kind of in terms of understanding that, hey, it's not always going to be.

It's not always going to go exactly the way that you think it's going to go, because there's other forces outside of what you think within, within the team as players.

There's other factors that go into it.

And I'm obviously, that was your, that was your welcome to the NBA business.

And like, you going through parts and bits and pieces and stuff.

That's how Jake did.

You know Jake.

All right.

Like I said, he's like, okay, we're gonna get into nuts and bolts of this.

And, and I want you to tell me exactly what happened this year.

Exactly that year.

Exactly.

You know, do you remember this game?

You know, do you remember that day when he got traded?

Do you.

And, you know, and I'm.

I'm listening to him as he.

We going through chapters and as we going through my career, my life and everything, I'm like, after we hang up, I'm like, damn, I like that.

You know, I, I like how he did that today.

I like, I like how he, he, he actually told a story, but I was telling in my words, but he was, he was, you know, getting it out of me.

Exactly what I, I, I, I, I need to say.

And that, I guess that's what writers do.

But he, I mean, he, to me, he done a beautiful job.

Are you a photographic mem.

Are you a photographic memory guy when it comes to games?

Like, can you remember, okay, this series we're playing the Knicks, it's game four, there's three minutes to go.

I remember this exact play.

Or, or, or just how do you, how do you recollect games?

Obviously, having played so many games in your career, some are more memorable than others.

But just how did you go about remembering those things and how vivid are your memories of each of those games?

Jake was amazed at that when he was asking me those questions, and I was like, yeah, I remember that.

And, and so, and so, and so, and so.

Yeah, and this is how, this is what we was thinking.

This is what we did in the locker room.

This how we was at a shoot around and all this and all that.

And Jake was like, for real, how you remember that?

I was like, you know, you've been through so many games, but, but when you, when you played in the NBA, every game was special.

It wasn't like one game was special than the other.

Maybe it was, you know, Eastern Conference or against the Knicks or.

I needed this game here.

We got to have this game, you know, But I'm talking about, if you don't savor that, those memories in the NBA, why would the hell was you playing, man?

You got to savor those memories.

You got, you gotta, you gotta, you gotta love those memories, those battles, just going out there, having that, that NBA logo on you, you know, playing in different arenas, you know, you, you, you got to remember that stuff, man.

You got to remember that stuff.

And if you don't, then I think that, you know, you, you really, you didn't care, or you, you, you just was playing for a check.

I played.

Have fun, man.

I enjoyed the game.

That's what separates you, Tim.

Like, I, I, you know, I didn't know you very well, like, as a person before doing this book, but that's what separates you, is that, you know, of course you made a living and made a good living, but, like, you would have done it for free on some level, right?

Like you love the game so much and wanted to play.

Like you're saying, like the stuff with Chris Mullen, you were feeding for it, you know, and I, and I, I, yeah, that's what stuck out to me so, so much when we were talking.

It's just interesting when you think back to again, the sheer volume of the number of games that you participated in.

Jake, how long did it take you before you trusted his memory and say when he was telling you, hey, the score was 74 to 70 with five minutes to go in the third quarter.

Did you trust him right away or did you fact check him a few times?

Okay, well, I certainly did.

I fact checked.

Just because that's the process.

But no, very quickly.

You know, you can tell the confidence in someone's voice and then you can tell if it's a shaky confidence or a real confidence.

And Tim knew what he was talking about.

And even we were going back months later editing the book and editing stories, I could, you know, because when you're in the process of it, maybe it's like in front of your memory.

But like even going back like three months later, after we're editing it, he still, he still recounted it.

Very crystal clears it is.

And I wonder too if that's from being a point guard.

You know, you're like, you're taking these snapshots of the game and so maybe you have that filing cabinet of all those snapshots, you know, to some degree.

Yeah, I think some guys just have that and some guys don't for whatever, whatever that reason is, the ability to recall.

I got a guy that I coach with that, he has a photographic memory like that.

He'll tell me, hey, you remember that game and 1997 when we were up by 10 at halftime and then we gave this halftime speech and our guys came out and did X, Y or Z. I'm like, like, well, I might remember we won that game or we lost it.

You know what I mean?

But he's got like all this.

He'll just keep going and going and going with stories.

I think some guys just have that and some and some don't.

You had an opportunity in Golden State to play with Manute Bowl, a guy who.

A very interesting character.

And I got an interesting funny story about Manute bowl from my life.

So what's the best Manute bowl story that didn't make it into the book that you can tell us?

Shoot, I don't know.

Dad say that about the, the when I wouldn't Try to drive his car, Jake.

Okay, so it's amazing.

He had a Bronco, right?

The seat was in the back.

The seat was in a bet.

I'm like, how in the hell is this guy?

And you don't see Manute.

You see him through the back window.

You see his knees in the front window.

All right?

So I was like, he's like, manute, man, truck is trying to come and get into the arena.

And you park right there in the spot where the truck is at.

I said, manu, let me go.

Let me, let me move your car, man.

Let me move your car.

And everybody's like, why, why do you want to move?

I said, I just want to see how this man drive this car.

Why?

What?

His seat is back here.

And I, so I sat down, I, I, this steering wheel was like another two feet in front of me.

I couldn't even get to it.

So I, I, I, I was standing up, driving the car.

I was standing up, driving the car.

And I, and I slowed down.

I had to stop.

I was moving.

And I got in there, I got back in there into the arena.

I was like, man, if it was social media, if it was social media back then, oh, my God, people would have been dying laughing, Dying laugh.

But there was no social media.

Nobody took a picture.

None.

But I was like that, that, that was well worth me going out there driving this car.

I, I enjoyed that.

I was like, man, we gotta stop the presses, man.

We gotta put that story in the book.

Manu, you got a lot of stories.

You know, you say, I'm sorry.

You know, he's like, yes, I know you are.

That.

It's not like he know you.

You are sorry for about what you did.

No, you sorry first.

Remorseful.

Right, Right.

Yeah, I got you.

He's a king, right?

He was a king.

Yeah.

Yeah, Manute was.

So my father was a professor at Cleveland State.

And so when Manute first came to the United States, he came to Cleveland State.

And so my dad comes home from work one day and he's like, mike, you got to come down to work and see this.

He's like, yeah.

He's like.

But he's like, I'm not going to tell you.

He goes, I'm not going to tell you what you're going to see.

You just have to see it for yourself.

You're not going to believe what you're about to see.

And so we drive down, and the, the gym at Cleveland State has like a kind of like a balcony that goes around, around the court.

So we're standing on this balcony, which is like, at about the.

Maybe the top of the backboard level.

And so we're standing there, and there's guys kind of wandering into the gym, and all of a sudden, from out.

From underneath this balcony, out walks Manute.

And, like, everyone knows how skinny Manute was for the majority of his career, but we're talking about.

Manute had maybe been in the United States for, like, three days when I saw.

But he walks out in his head, you know, I mean, again, we all know how tall he is, but literally, his leg was just like his leg, his leg, his leg.

And then his knee was like this.

And then his thigh was no bigger than his calves.

And just.

My dad's like, yeah, this guy just.

They brought him over from.

They brought him over from Africa.

They think he's gonna play or whatever.

I'm just like you.

You could not fathom the combination of.

Of.

Of height and skinniness of a guy.

It was just incredible.

And the only thing you could say was balloon.

He just walked around.

He'd be like, ball, ball, ball to everybody.

It was.

It was crazy.

It was unbelievable.

Did you play against George Mirashon?

Yeah.

I didn't ask you.

Yes.

Yeah, did.

Who's the.

Who's the best giant that you ever played against?

The Sean Bradley's in there?

Maybe you played against Mark.

Oh, man.

So.

So it was no way you could set a pick on mirror sign or.

Or.

Or.

Or.

Or eating.

There's no way.

You just.

You.

You.

You had to really, really watch yourself because if they fall.

If they fall on you, you was in serious, serious trouble.

Okay?

And.

But.

But Manute, you know, you.

You just had to watch out for Manu.

Elbows in his knees because, you know, he.

It.

They all.

If he falls that you.

Hey, hey, it's tough.

So Newt used to go like this.

So he used to get a rebound, and he used to.

So he'd get a rebound and he'll hold it up on the backboard like this.

Just hold it up there.

And he said, why not you?

Why aren't you going down court?

You're not gonna get it, you know, and you just run down court and he's just passing on to the point guard and let's go.

But I mean, he was just that funny like that.

He'll block somebody's shot and just hold it and just look around.

What are you doing?

What are you doing?

Are you serious right now?

And he'll get out.

Just go.

But I mean, he's Just that funny man.

And I, I tell you this.

So you watched it.

If you, you watched him shoot the ball.

All right, I watched him shoot the ball and it's just, you know, like that.

But in a game, when he started making them is not only effective, but you start looking at the other team's face, they'd be like, get the out of here.

This seven foot seven guys making three like that.

I mean it's like he just slinging it in there, just throwing it in there and it'd be going in all net.

And he practiced that.

And Don Nelson wanted him to practice that, that jump shot because he said once he hit that, he make two or three of those.

He opens the game wide open and the big man has to step out.

So yeah, new was a great guy, man.

He was a great guy.

Yeah.

Don Nelson way before his time in so many, in so many ways, right?

I mean just thinking about the small ball and multi positional and just everything that, that Nelly kind of stood for.

And you in your career were fortunate enough to play for Don Nelson and also play for Pat Riley.

Two hall of fame legendary coaches.

So when you think about those two guys, maybe compare and contrast a little bit of their coaching style, what you picked up from each one of them and just what it was like to play for two guys that, that are obviously at the upper echelon of NBA coaches.

All, you know, you got two coach that played in NBA, that played against some good, good guys.

I mean some hall of Fame guys played with some hall of Fame guys played with, with some great coaches.

And there was no nonsense coaches.

You know, Don Nelson and Pat Rally, always prepared, always prepared.

Wanted you to be prepared.

But you know, Nelly always was an innovator.

He wanted to, he wanted to innovate the game in a way where other teams could adapt or if they did adapt to your game, then we got, you know, we, we, they, they, they not used to playing this way.

So when we went small ball and had Mario Ellie stick a small, a big guy and then we come down and double team, they like, you know, they come down so quick.

Yeah, we come right on the, on soon as you, they throw the ball, we right there.

So it was like we took people out of their rhythm.

It only, you know, maybe for a quarter, maybe for three minutes, maybe for two minutes, you know, but it was very innovative playing small ball, moving pass and cut passing, cut back screen on a big, you know, small.

Didn't never switch back then.

So his innovation of the game revolution to today's game.

And that's why I.

And I say this in my book.

If I was there because I hurt myself, I hurt my acl.

If I was there when we got Chris Weber, I think Weber, the team would have took off again after we lost Mitch, but they didn't see eye to eye, and I wasn't there to.

To talk to Webb or.

Or talk to Nelly and to try to get them to see eye to eye and make sure that, you know, whoever this is, how we need for you to play, this is going to make you better.

This gonna make you this way.

And he found out at the end of his career with the Sacramento Kings that this is the way Nelly wanted you to play and you thriving at it.

If you would have understood that and if I could have made him understood that back then, oh, man, he wouldn't never left Golden State, you know, so.

But yeah, that.

You know, that.

That's another instance in a book where I talk about.

But, man, you know, Nelly, his.

His.

His mind was always trying to just innovate and make opposing teams really.

And coaches really, really, really, really think about what we gonna do and how we gonna do it.

So we might add four different things that we could have pulled out in the game, and you better be ready for those four different things.

If you wasn't ready for those four different things, then you was in trouble.

All right, then I go to a guy that Pat Rowley.

Oh, man.

Oh, man.

Yo, this is how we gonna do it.

No switching.

This is how we gonna play.

We gonna get over picks, we gonna double team picking rolls.

We gonna get back.

We're gonna do this and this and that.

And that was every day.

Every day, two and a half hours every day.

Nelly might be an hour.

Nelly might be two hours.

Nelly might be five minutes.

No, Pat Riley was every day, every day, same thing every day.

And you went out there and played that way, which I love.

I love both styles.

I played both styles.

I knew I could play both styles coming from Chicago and dealing with the people and.

And.

And the coach that I dealt with in Chicago and with Don Hastings.

So, you know, it was.

It was great for me.

And I love both coaches and I.

And I thrived in both offenses and both defenses and, you know, and I.

And they both gave me the keys to the engine, And I ran 18.

Much of the.

How much conversation were you able to have with those two guys day to day, whether during practice, outside of practice, sitting down with them, talking about what the team needed, what you were seeing?

How was that Relationship in terms of being able to.

To have a conversation about with them, about what went on on the floor.

Was that something that was common with you and them, or was that something that didn't really happen that often?

Come.

You got to be on a point with a point guard.

You got to understand what the coach wants, how he wants it, and.

And what you want to do and what you think about it.

Because you out there on the court and you talk about it, you look at film, you.

You go out there and execute it, you know, and you got to relay it to your teammates, too.

About what, you know, what.

What you seeing as a point guard.

This how they gonna play.

So I'm gonna pass it to you here.

This how they gonna play pick and roll.

So most of the time it's gonna be bounce pass because they got great hands.

And if I.

It might be a deflection, so I got to get you the ball.

So it might be late, so be expecting it late, you know, and you got to communicate with your team in practice.

You got to communicate with your coach, and you got to understand, you know, different stuff that.

That.

That you and your coaches, you.

You and your coach have a point guard, and coach has to be on the same page.

So it was a lot of communication, and it was a lot of talking and it was a lot of understanding about what I need to do, what I wanted to do, and how I could do it in both instances with Don Nelson and Pat Rowley.

Tell me about your relationship with Alonzo Mourning and what that meant to you while you're playing with the Heat.

Obviously, you go through all those wars with the Knicks, you win a gold medal with them.

Just talk about that relationship.

Great person.

I will tell you this on the court.

Don't bother him.

He, he, he, he, he, he, he.

He's a beast on the court.

He don't want to hear it.

He just competitive.

He just go, ain't.

There's no fun in games.

There's basketball.

I've come down here, I'm gonna do what I take to need to do to win this game, no matter what.

All right?

But off the court, loving guy, you can approach him, you can talk to him.

You know, we had to work on that a little bit because some.

Some kids, you know, he.

Some kids really thought he was mean and stuff.

And I said, man, he's a gentle giant.

You just.

You just can't rush up to Zoe and be like, hey, yeah, you know, give me an autograph.

No, no, no, no.

It's a Way to do things.

You know, I, I tell people it's a way to do things, you know, hello, Mr.

Morning, how you doing?

Or, you know, Alonzo, how you doing?

Great game or whatever, Whatever.

Can I have autograph?

Just don't rush up to him, say, can I have autograph?

You're gonna say no all the time.

You know, you got to be polite and, and you gotta, you gotta, you know, make sure you come off in a, in a way where he, he's not going to be mad at you.

And that.

Good advice in general, just be polite, right?

Be polite to people.

That usually works.

Did that.

He was all right, but if you come up and not polite to him, you know, he was like, nah, leave me alone, and kept on walk.

But great guy, though.

Great guy.

He's in the news.

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

How special was the Olympic experience winning the gold medal?

What were your emotions when you guys win the medal and you're standing on the platform and the anthems playing?

Sure.

Joy.

Just, just, just pure joy.

Just being, just, you know, just, just pure joy.

We hugging each other.

We, we laughing.

You know, we like, do you believe this?

Do you believe that we are gold medalists?

You know, And I was like, man.

And both of us at the same time said, we work so hard for this.

Of course, of course, of course.

And then, you know, we, we, we.

And then at the end of that, it was cool, but it wasn't cool because, you know, we, we saw something that me, him, and the doctor saw something.

And that's when that happened at that particular time.

And we, we was worried.

All the way home, we was worried.

You know, we can't give too much.

Of the book away, Mike.

You're doing a good job here, but we can't give too much away.

There's a. I got, I got it.

I'm trying, I'm trying.

I'm trying to dance.

I'm trying to, I'm trying to dance.

Dancer, dance around.

D Round topic.

So, yeah, for sure.

I, I, I, I completely understand.

And again, like I said, with the relationship that you had with the, with Chris Mullen and, and Mitch Richmond in Golden State, that came through.

And then again, your affection for Alonzo Morning and that relationship through, through everything that you guys battled through with the Heat and those four series against the Knicks and, and going back and forth and all that, and anybody who remembers 90s basketball, if you read the book, you're going to go back and you're going to take a trip down memory lane with those series and just how emotional and physical and everything that went into those series back in the day, you, this book will transport you back into 90s Knicks, Heat, Eastern Conference basketball, and you'll, you'll get a, a real good sense of what that was like from the inside, for sure.

Then the next thing I want to ask you about is just as a dad and your son makes it all the way to the NBA.

And in the book, you kind of detail the way that goes back to your theme, Jake, that you talked about with the crossover.

Right.

This is another example of as a parent, you started out one way kind of handling his basketball career, and then you crossed over and went a different direction.

So maybe just for anybody who's out there, and there's lots of coaches who are listening to the podcast who are parents that probably have kids that are playing basketball.

But if you had one piece of advice to give to basketball parents, and obviously your son's made it to the highest level possible, what piece of advice would you give to parents of young basketball players or a high school basketball player that can make the experience better for the kid and also for you as a parent.

I always tell parents, let your kid be a kid.

The kid didn't grow up the way you grew up.

You made, you made it possible for the kid to grow up the way he's supposed to grow up now and, and be a parent.

You know, go out there, watch him play, have fun watching him play.

But he has to learn.

He has to learn.

You can't like force it upon him because you're going to force it and he not going to be able to respond to it and he's going to quit and you might, you might mess up something that he loved to do.

So I tell parents, yo, calm down, be cool, chill out, and let them learn on their own.

They, if they want it, they will go out and get it.

They will go out and get it if they want it.

But you have to check yourself and don't be over there screaming and hollering at them, yo, you shoot the ball and you shoot the ball every time.

Because if you shoot the ball every time, then you just being selfish and you just doing what they want you to do.

And that might not make help you make it to where you want to be.

So I tell them, let them be, Let them learn on their own because if they want it, they gonna get it.

They'll climb up and put the net.

On the, on the gym because they essential they're accessible to gyms now.

Only thing they gotta do is just drop them off and let them go do what they need to do, you know, but there's a lot, a lot of these parents baby them, they, you know, pass them ball.

You need to do this.

You need.

No, just let them be.

They're figuring it out.

Well said.

I think every parent, when they are signing up for their kids first basketball team, you should just hand them a piece of paper with what you said, calm down.

Two words.

Hand them the paper.

Calm down.

And if we could get parents to just step back and understand what you just described in terms of.

I always tell people, look, if your kid loves it enough, then they're going to do.

They're going to climb the pole and put the net up, they're going to go and find a gym, they're going to work by themselves.

They're going to love it.

And what you do as the parent.

Yeah.

In some cases you gotta, as you said, drop them off.

You got to provide them opportunities.

But you see so many people that just go completely overboard.

And I think if you could sum it up, when I, when I heard you say, calm down, it's perfect because I've said that to so many people just like, look, it's.

It's going to work out.

And it has nothing to do with you as the parent.

What, what you want is irrelevant, man.

It's like, it's.

It's about what your kid is or isn't going to do to get to where they want to.

Leave the coaches alone.

Leave the coaches alone.

They.

They gotta deal with 10 different personalities.

They gotta deal with 10 guys that they trying to help each and every day get better and better and better, not only as an athlete, but as a person.

And you are hampering the coach from doing that from high school to college.

You are hampering your coach and your son from getting better.

All right, last question.

Tim, you get elected to the Basketball hall of Fame.

What's been the coolest part about being a Basketball hall of Famer?

What has it meant to you?

What's been the most meaningful part of being a member of the hall of Fame?

So is.

Is not only being in a Hall of Fame most important, but my parents was there to witness it and put that jacket on me and to be a part of it.

You know, my parents mean so much to me.

Even though when y' all read the book, y' all gonna see a lot of things that evolved and, and what happened and stuff is this and that.

I still only got one dad.

Only I still got one one Mom.

And for them to be there with me and to see the.

The joy on their face of the hard work that they helped me go through.

That.

That.

That was satisfying right there.

That was glorifying.

Just to have my parents there to watch me and to say my speech, you know, that.

That man.

Yeah, that was it.

That.

That was the whole weekend that they was there.

It's a full circle.

A full circle moment.

Right?

You go back to when you're a kid.

We started out the conversation talking about Chicago and the impact that it had on you, and obviously that it had on your mom, your dad, your family.

And then we take it all the way to making it to the hall of Fame, and we're kind of right back where we started with the influence of your mom, your dad, and how they shaped you into who you became not only as a basketball player, but as a person.

And I'll say just the book is outstanding.

I loved reading it.

That took me back to a ton of memories of watching you play, of watching basketball during the era that you played.

You're only a couple years older than me, so I remember clearly just a lot of the things that went on in the book.

And then to be able to get your perspective and to hear from somebody who went through some of the trials and tribulations that went through throughout your career and in your childhood, and then for you to make it and have it culminate in making the Basketball hall of Fame.

It's just a great story.

It's really well done.

I would highly recommend anybody out there please pick up the book.

Jake and Tim did a great job of collaborating called Killer Crossover.

Jake, I'll give you one more opportunity.

Give us the elevator pitch on the book.

Why should people go out and buy it?

You're the.

You're the co author.

Tell us why we need to get out there.

Obviously, I read it and I couldn't recommend it anymore, but let's hear from.

Let's hear from you on.

On what makes the book so special.

It's the greatest book ever written.

Perfect.

I love it.

And, and, and Tim's amazing and his story is incredible.

And there's all twists and turns and crossovers and everything else, but it.

It's the subject that makes the book.

And Tim is a great.

Yeah, it's a must read.

It's a must read.

Everybody want to know what.

What made me why I'm this way and.

And, and the book will tell you everything.

Why I'm this way and why I was like that on the court and off the court.

It's a great read.

Please pick it up.

Absolutely.

Guys, Tim, Jake, cannot thank you enough for taking the time out of your schedule tonight to join us.

Really appreciate it.

To everyone who's in our audience, please go out, pick up killer crossover.

Read it, enjoy it.

I guarantee basketball fan, basketball coach, basketball anything.

You're going to love the book.

Please go out and pick it up and we appreciate you listening tonight and we will catch you on our next episode.

Thanks.

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