[00:00:00] Nick Schiffer: It's

[00:00:09] Eric Goranson: around the house. Hey guys, RG from around the house show. This is a best of episode. I'm taking a little time off and I do that enough and I need to get a little bit of a break. So we're talking with Nick Schiffer of NS builders. This aired last year, but it's over the holidays where people missed it.

[00:00:26] Eric Goranson: So I wanted to make sure that we got this back out there because it's an important episode

[00:00:30] Eric Goranson: about high

[00:00:31] Eric Goranson: quality. even some power tools. We talk about Festool and some other brands out there as well as his modern craftsman podcast. So check it out right here. Nick Schiffer of NS builders for more information about us, head

[00:00:45] Nick Schiffer: to around the house, online.

[00:00:47] Nick Schiffer: com. And you can make sure and catch this and the TV show over there as well. When it comes to remodeling and renovating your home, there is a lot to

[00:00:59] Eric Goranson: know that we've got you covered [00:01:00] is around the house, welcome to the ground, the house. This is where we talk everything about your house every single week. Thanks for joining us. We've got a special guest in the studio today, Nick Schiffer. Welcome to around the house, man.

[00:01:13] Nick Schiffer: What's up, man? Glad to be here.

[00:01:15] Nick Schiffer: Appreciate it. Happy to have you.

[00:01:17] Eric Goranson: I have seen you on the different NHB stages and everything else. You like, like kind of cross paths between friends and stuff, but never have really spent

[00:01:25] Nick Schiffer: time together. Yeah. I, I, I, as I dug into like who you are and how, like what you do in the industry, I'm like, how have we not met?

[00:01:32] Nick Schiffer: Right. It's, it's, it's interesting, especially, I feel like it's so, even when you go to the, the, Like IBS and things like that. I feel like I see the same people and it's, and it's people that even live in Boston that I never see in Boston, but then I'll go to a million square foot trade show and I'll bump into him six times.

[00:01:52] Nick Schiffer: How does that work? Right? I don't know. So.

[00:01:54] Eric Goranson: Yeah, we have a lot of common friends. It's hilarious. Well, man, you have been doing so much good [00:02:00] stuff out there with NS builders. And I mean, you're just legendary in the Boston scene across the U S as well. But let's talk about you and your chops a little bit.

[00:02:07] Eric Goranson: Cause uh, sure. You do a lot of the stuff that I love. I, my, my background kitchen designer for 30 years. So I did a lot of the interior modeling stuff. A lot of that kind of stuff that you've done on the, on the, on the remodeling side as well, that luxury

[00:02:21] Nick Schiffer: home. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, for me, you know, especially when we started growing as a business and outside of just being a carpenter or a carpentry business, that's where I really kind of sat my, my role into kind of helping design.

[00:02:36] Nick Schiffer: I'm not a designer. I'm not an architect. I don't, I don't have any licensing or training in it, but that's where I started really pushing the, the, the level of, detail and how we executed particular things. Um, and that's where, you know, a lot of my mind just kind of got encapsulated by how do we do this better?

[00:02:53] Nick Schiffer: How do we, how do we make this detail better or cooler? Uh, and most of the time that works out for me, there's been a handful of [00:03:00] times where I make something quote unquote cooler and it becomes wildly expensive and a nightmare to maintain. And my guys hate me for it. But the, you know, the point is, is I like to challenge the normal way of Uh, doing something and constantly question like, how do we do this better?

[00:03:16] Nick Schiffer: What can we do to make this better? Well, and

[00:03:19] Eric Goranson: you know, and you come from a part of the country where, where the craft is big, you know? Yeah. I mean, I've worked all over the country with, with different people like you have, you know? Mm-hmm. and there's just something about the old world, craftsmanship of the Northeast, and it's

[00:03:36] Nick Schiffer: cool.

[00:03:36] Nick Schiffer: It's, and I, I've, I guess part of me is a little bit. Naive to that where I just think it's normal. And then when I do travel to different parts of the country, people are like, yeah, you're so lucky, man. Like craftsmanship is like still a thing up there. Like, what do you mean? Like I'm walking a project here in California and this is pretty awesome.

[00:03:54] Nick Schiffer: I'm like, yeah, man, but it's, it's just different. It's, you know, it's not put together the same way with the same type of [00:04:00] people. They're just not, there's not that many of them, you know, in different parts of the country. And, you know, and I think about that when we talk about it on the pot, the, the modern craftsmen it's, you know, we, we, we caught.

[00:04:10] Nick Schiffer: Oftentimes talk about the Northeast and like our market. And even when we talk about money, it's, it's really difficult to understand that, you know, a lot of what we talk about doesn't relate to the majority of the population. It's tough. Yeah. And, and, and I, and I feel like we, we, we try to do a good job about, you know, Calling that out and being true to the fact that we don't know, you know, the entire market across the U.

[00:04:34] Nick Schiffer: S. But yeah, I mean, I'm I do feel fortunate that we are in the northeast and there's a lot of people that love craftsmanship and I'm hoping that you know what we're doing with creating awareness on social and podcasts and things like that, that we're, you know, encouraging people to get into it. Um, yeah.

[00:04:52] Nick Schiffer: Because it, you know, I have a lot of thoughts on this, but it's not a, it's, it's not an easy career [00:05:00] to be in. Um, and it's not something that is, you know, there, there's this kind of, I don't know if we want to go down this path, but you know, there's this kind of over glorification of, hey, you can be super wealthy in the trades.

[00:05:14] Nick Schiffer: And I don't think that that's. False. But I do think that there's too much focus on it in the sense that, you know, this isn't a career that you get into because you want to be uber wealthy. This is a career that you get into because you are passionate about it and can you make a good living on it? Of course.

[00:05:30] Nick Schiffer: Can you support your family? Of course. But. It's hard work. No matter

[00:05:36] Eric Goranson: what way too much struggle here to be a get rich quick scheme. That's for sure. And

[00:05:40] Nick Schiffer: it's very hard work. It's very labor intensive. And there there has to be that balance between Yes, I know I can be successful. I know I can make a good living and support my family.

[00:05:51] Nick Schiffer: But At the expense of the fact that I truly love working with my hands and working with my body and, and, and doing laborious work. [00:06:00] And I think that, you know, that just needs, there needs to be a bigger conversation around that because I think a lot of, you know, some people get into, you know, particular trades or careers because they think it's the fastest way to wealth.

[00:06:14] Nick Schiffer: And, you know, that it just, it's not, that's not entirely true, especially in, in construction related fields. Well, you

[00:06:23] Eric Goranson: think about it, that's where that craft of craftsmanship comes in, right? It's a craft and you have, you're always learning that craft. You walk on and do something different. You're learning.

[00:06:34] Eric Goranson: I'm learning. There's always a learning process to this. You're never done learning in this craft.

[00:06:41] Nick Schiffer: Yeah, I mean, that's, and that's one of the best parts and that's what I love about it is, you know, everything we do, you know, like I said, I challenge it and, you know, we have material millwork now where, you know, I get to dig into the details with Ken and Ian and James in the shop and, and talk about, you know, how we [00:07:00] make something cooler.

[00:07:01] Nick Schiffer: You know, like, how do we, we're building this pantry right now. It's a big slat wall and there's a pot, there was a pocket door detailed on it. I'm like, man, it would be really cool if when that door shut, it flushed out with the face of it. So when you step back, it didn't look like there was a door there.

[00:07:16] Nick Schiffer: And sure enough, we sourced the hardware, tested it, it works. It looks dope. And it's, you know, and was it necessary? No, but we accomplished, accomplished something different that now when that end user. Experience is it? And I think that's a key word is like the experience. They have a different experience.

[00:07:37] Nick Schiffer: Yeah. And

[00:07:38] Eric Goranson: I want to go back and make sure that I'm not ripping on here. All the crass people that we have across the U. S. And I'm just saying, Oh, you're in Southern California. You're not that I want to make sure and not leave that hanging for all you guys out there. But There's just seems to be a, you know, in your area up there, just more of an appreciation of that.

[00:07:55] Eric Goranson: And there are some great people all across the

[00:07:57] Nick Schiffer: country. Oh, a hundred percent. I just densely populated [00:08:00] up here. Yeah. Yeah. Where it's, it's very spread out there. And, you know, I don't know. I, I it's. It's something I struggle with, you know, just trying to position myself as someone that wants to help the industry as a whole and be, you know, incredibly aware of all these markets and what type of people are in these trades.

[00:08:21] Nick Schiffer: And yeah, I mean, I'm with you. I'm not ripping on any part of the country or any, any market or anyone that's in different parts that truly does love the craft. It's just that it's, you know, at least it's something that's communicated pretty often that the Northeast is densely populated. Packed with people that appreciate craft on both sides, more than other areas.

[00:08:40] Nick Schiffer: You

[00:08:40] Eric Goranson: know, it's funny. And I learned this a few years ago. I was up in Boston speaking for the NRL, NRLA up there for the Northeastern Retail Lumber Association up there. I was talking to home tack. To a bunch of lumber yards that weren't ready to talk home tech yet because they're very old school and I appreciate that, [00:09:00] but they weren't ready to consume that yet.

[00:09:02] Eric Goranson: So I've seen the other side of that too, where sometimes technology gets to be a little slower because that old world craftsmanship

[00:09:10] Nick Schiffer: is the way to go. Yeah, it's, it's interesting, man. You know, I think, you know, it's when you talk about tech, right? And I think about software and how things are developing so quickly.

[00:09:23] Nick Schiffer: There's all of the, I mean, there's an enormous amount of people in the tech space for construction right now. And there's everyone is coming out with a new Yeah, New idea to do something faster and I see a lot of it, but a lot of them reach out to me. I have a friend of mine who's really in that space that constantly is getting my feedback on things.

[00:09:44] Nick Schiffer: And I saw a product yesterday where it's, you know, designed to help, you know, commercial construction wall layout on big, you know, concrete slabs, right? And I'm like, love the idea. I watched the video and it was like, first you do this and then this and then you do that. And then, and then also it's like step [00:10:00] 13.

[00:10:00] Nick Schiffer: I'm like, dude. Lost. Yeah, you lost me like this, this, this is just a different way of doing it. Like you were trying to change the way we do something rather than make it more efficient.

[00:10:15] Eric Goranson: Yeah. If you're going to cut the steps by half, awesome. But if I'm going to go learn days of process to do the same thing.

[00:10:21] Nick Schiffer: And that's, and I think that just like that. With craftsmanship and the idea behind craftsmanship over, you know, efficiency, I think there needs to be a balance there where, you know, craftsmanship is very expensive and if you can't, you know, labor is more expensive. Material is more expensive. And if you're continually putting in twice or three times as much Labor to execute something at a higher level because, because you want it to be a higher level of craftsmanship.

[00:10:55] Nick Schiffer: I mean, to me, that means that, okay, there's value [00:11:00] to that, but there's also value to figuring out how you get, you can get there faster. And I think of like CNC, for example, you know, a conversation I've had with. Ken, who's my partner at Material Millwork, is that, you know, he was a little bit against CNC in the beginning.

[00:11:15] Nick Schiffer: Sure. And, you know, he's like, I like, I just like cutting plywood on the table saw, like working with my hands and stuff. I'm like, I get that, man. Like, I totally understand that feeling, but the reality is like, you could take out the, the monotonous work. And put it on a computer controlled, you know, CNC, that's cutting all your parts and pieces.

[00:11:35] Nick Schiffer: Exactly the same. Exactly the same. Make that part of the pro, like that process more efficient. So you can turn around and then spend more time on the, the, the sexy craftsmanship stuff. The stuff that does require hand work that, that when it is done by hand, there's an actual benefit to the end result.

[00:11:55] Nick Schiffer: Not, you know, I just cut that with a ply, like. On a table saw [00:12:00] instead of a C and C. I mean, there's no, at the end of the day, there's no, like no one's there. I don't want to say that no one's going to notice the difference because that's not the point that there's really no benefit to it, I guess, is what where I'm going.

[00:12:12] Nick Schiffer: Yeah,

[00:12:12] Eric Goranson: there's no art to that. Really? It's not, it's not something you're going to notice. And I went through that C and C. Transition, working at cabinet shops and designing and managing cabinet shops back in the day. Cause that was the fight. Okay. Getting away from that Unisaw over into that CNC and you could just get better yields and use equipment.

[00:12:35] Eric Goranson: And be safer with it, too.

[00:12:37] Nick Schiffer: Yeah, use less material. You're maximizing, you're, you're nesting parts and pieces. I mean, that's one of the coolest parts of it. I think, you know, there's a, a framer, uh, who's got a shop that prefabricates all his walls in a shop, and was touring his shop one day, and he's, he orders all his plywood extra, like, 10 foot sheets.

[00:12:55] Nick Schiffer: He orders all his 2x4s and 24, 24 Uh, 20 [00:13:00] foot lengths and things like that. And what he does, the whole house gets designed in the computer and then it spits out the cut list. So you're maximizing your cuts out of that 2x4. To the end, when you get to the end of the job, he had a 55 gallon bucket of scrap.

[00:13:17] Nick Schiffer: How cool is that? I mean, it's, you know, to do that by hand would take days because you're like, all right, which part do I cut now? You know, where a computer can figure that out for you. And there's like, you're not ruining the craftsmanship there. What you're doing is you're maximizing the use of material, which is helping counteract the cost of material.

[00:13:41] Nick Schiffer: You're, you're, you're, it's more environmentally, um, you know, friendly because you're using less material and less is being thrown away. And you're allowing the computer to, to figure that out. So you're not wasting additional labor hours to, you know, figuring out, all right, [00:14:00] what's the best use of this 20 foot two by four and end up with, you know, a four foot piece that, you know, never ends up getting used or you put it aside to use it for, you know, uh, a cripple stud that, you know, then you forget that you had.

[00:14:14] Nick Schiffer: They have that four foot piece and then it's just a four foot piece sitting in the corner of your shop.

[00:14:18] Eric Goranson: Absolutely. It's that piece you're holding. You never ever use, right? The one that you trip over for two years.

[00:14:23] Nick Schiffer: So you opt to keep that for later. You mean like the 24 drawer boxes we've ordered incorrectly that sit in the corner of our shop that we're going to use?

[00:14:30] Nick Schiffer: Dude, who doesn't have

[00:14:31] Eric Goranson: not? I have those here in my garage. What are you talking about?

[00:14:34] Nick Schiffer: I think anyone that's ever ordered drawer boxes for cabinetry has. The, the mistake pile and we've, and it's so funny, like, oh yeah, we'll use those. It's like, no, we won't. Yeah, I have

[00:14:47] Eric Goranson: a drawer boxes and I have a couple of shower door panels here

[00:14:50] Nick Schiffer: too.

[00:14:51] Nick Schiffer: Oh yeah, I had a shower door panel and I ended up, I did end up reusing that. Yeah, um, I've got

[00:14:56] Eric Goranson: a plan for it. I haven't used it yet, but you know what I mean? It wasn't even my fault. [00:15:00] It was the glass company ordered it wrong and I'm like, yeah, I can't, can't cut that down.

[00:15:03] Nick Schiffer: Yeah, right. Yeah, we built it. We build a kitchenette for our office and it's like, here's a perfect time to use material that we already have.

[00:15:13] Nick Schiffer: We didn't, we just ordered all new material. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, forget it. It's too hard to go back to it. Yeah. It's silly stuff like that. Oh yeah.

[00:15:22] Eric Goranson: Well, I want to talk about power tools with you for a second. Cause uh, man, there's some good stuff out there. I know you do a lot with Festool and tell you what those guys, it's gorgeous stuff, my friend, it is gorgeous

[00:15:36] Nick Schiffer: stuff.

[00:15:36] Nick Schiffer: When you say that, it's funny because like, that's one of the reasons why I like it so much is because it looks good and it's super sexy, man. And I, and there's so many, so we're re outfitting our, um, one of our vans, uh, for home care and it's kind of a hodgepodge of different tools and everything does its job like a hundred percent.

[00:15:58] Nick Schiffer: Like he's got a cart, it [00:16:00] goes in like the clients are like, Oh, this is super organized. And we had a meeting and I'm like, man, you know, yeah. Kind of want it to be gray and green and they're like, well, that's like that cart is more money. I'm like, I know. Yeah. But it, you know what? Let's just do it. Like, I, like, I don't, after this meeting, I don't want to talk about it anymore.

[00:16:21] Nick Schiffer: Let's just, because I know it's everything's when that, that cart rolls through that front door and the client's looking like, Oh, that's really neat looking. Everything's the same. Everything's super clean. Oh wow. Everything has its spot. Right. And it's like, what is that? Oh, it's, you know, it's, uh, it's just like, yeah, I'm with you on that.

[00:16:41] Nick Schiffer: And I mean, truthfully, you know, I started the same way as I think everyone does. They buy the tracks on. That was like the, that was the tool. That's the crack,

[00:16:50] Eric Goranson: right? the first hit.

[00:16:52] Nick Schiffer: I remember picking it up and the guy that sold it to me was like, Hey, just so you know, this is, he said that he was like, this is like a drug.

[00:16:59] Nick Schiffer: I'm like, what are you talking about? I'm [00:17:00] like, I just need a track. So like, I, I, I see the value and then I call him like, can I get a sander? And then can I get another vacuum? He's like, dude. And the next thing you know, it's like, I need a domino.

[00:17:12] Eric Goranson: I need a domino. I'm doing a project over here. I need this. I need that.

[00:17:15] Nick Schiffer: Right. And I'm, I remember I did a deck and I was like that dominant. I need the XL. Like, I didn't. I like definitely didn't, but I was like, no, but if I mean, I might as well have it, you know, because I can use it now and probably use it again. And then it's just like, and then it, you know, there's, there's so many benefits to it.

[00:17:35] Eric Goranson: It's good looking stuff. And it, what I. It's one. It's sexy, but it's just so finely made. It's got that German engineering and it's hard to put a word to it, but it just does. It's just got that. It's meant for a craftsperson to use.

[00:17:50] Nick Schiffer: Yeah, it's you know what? Um, I know what you're getting at because, like, I think about when sedge, like, demonstrate something where.

[00:17:58] Nick Schiffer: Everything that the [00:18:00] tools do, like the indicator plates and like the tabs on the side of the DOM, it's very, once you know how to use it, it's super intuitive. And when Sedge uses it, like, he's not even looking at the thing. It's like, he knows what the tool is going to do just by the way he moves it around.

[00:18:17] Nick Schiffer: And that was, you know, and that's the part where it's like, these tools are smart. Like there's a lot of thought that went into it because they knew what kind of things that they could add that would make things repeatable, you know, like the indicator, you know, the side, the gauge, the side gauges on the domino is a perfect example.

[00:18:36] Nick Schiffer: And it's like, you know, it's just everything there was, there was thought to everything. And even, I mean, um, what was it? The. One of the Sanders has like the smart mode on it and it's just like, yeah, I don't know, I could sit here and we can

[00:18:52] Eric Goranson: sit here and just like drool over tools all day long, but 100%. But I just, I just love how they've, they've put it together.

[00:18:59] Eric Goranson: And, [00:19:00] and there's some tool companies that do a great job out there. And I mean, there's a lot of great tools out there. And if you're a homeowner out there, uh, you know, there's so many great brands out there. So I don't want to say bad about it, but For guys that are doing, you know, for folks that are out there building stuff every day, this is the stuff that if you want to do that really, you know, detailed work, it's meant for that.

[00:19:23] Nick Schiffer: No, 100%. And, and I think you're right. Like, there's a lot of tools out there and there is this like misconception that, you know, you need to have. Particular tools or like a, a particular brand, it's not, it really does come down to preference. And are there benefits to using something like Festool over another tool brand?

[00:19:45] Nick Schiffer: Yeah, of course. And you know, there's, there's probably another tool that, you know, another brand might make even better than Festool. And it, what it does come, it, it, it comes down to preference and, and going right back to what we just were talking about. It is [00:20:00] the, the intuitive nature of them that make them.

[00:20:03] Nick Schiffer: You know, desirable to work with where it's like, yeah, I could go buy, uh, you know, a 40 belt sander and, and do, do the damn thing if I need to. But if I have a really nice, you know, belt sander or a really nice tool, like I'm going to treat it a little bit differently and it's going to have a little bit more capacity in the sense of like what I can do with it creatively and, you know, and, and, and how much control I have over it or, you know, Obviously, the dust collection is a big thing for them.

[00:20:33] Nick Schiffer: So, you know, maybe it, maybe it, maybe I just don't have to worry about dust. And that was, I mean, that was a huge thing, especially when I started, it was just me. So, you know, I'm on a job site inside a home with a chop saw set up and I'm not cleaning up window sills and furniture at the end of the day.

[00:20:51] Nick Schiffer: It's, you know, because I have a good. Dust extractor on. I'm like, that's a that that was money that that that was valuable to me. You can be

[00:20:59] Eric Goranson: putting [00:21:00] a kitchen in and cutting inside and not worried about, Oh, you know, Mrs Smith's dining rooms around the corner. I'm gonna have to pay to clean that

[00:21:06] Nick Schiffer: up. Right?

[00:21:07] Nick Schiffer: Yeah. So that's a huge difference of not having to go outside to cut stuff. I mean, you think about like what it, you know, I mean, we could get into the semantics of like what it costs to clean, but you know, that's where I, I definitely saw a lot of the benefit, especially being a solo guy. But even now, I mean, it's, you know, yeah, we talked about how cool it looks in the van and for the client, but you know, all, all of my guys, you know, I'm not going to say they demand the tools, but it's like they ask about it.

[00:21:35] Nick Schiffer: It's like, Hey, can we get this? Can we get that? You know why? It's like, well, this will make my job easier. Or Hey, this drill. I really like this drill. It's small. It's ergonomical. It's, you know, it, it's easy to fit in cabinets. It, you know, it has more clutch control. Like, yeah, yeah, yeah. If this stuff makes your job easier.

[00:21:51] Nick Schiffer: Like I've always said from the beginning, if we need a tool to make your job easier, then we will get it. And you know, and whether that's [00:22:00] immediately or work towards it, you know, we will, we will make the effort to, to get that tool as quickly as possible.

[00:22:06] Eric Goranson: It ends up being safer in the long run. 'cause they're comfortable with it, they know how it works and it's reliable.

[00:22:11] Eric Goranson: Mm-hmm. a hundred percent. You know that more control that you have no matter what you're doing, the better off you are with

[00:22:16] Nick Schiffer: it. A hundred percent. Would

[00:22:19] Eric Goranson: you use that stuff framing?

[00:22:21] Nick Schiffer: I have, yeah. Yeah, I had, uh, I said I had a meeting like someone else in my company now has it in their truck, uh, but I had the, I think it's HKC like that cutoff saw.

[00:22:35] Nick Schiffer: So I use that framing. Um, I definitely use the chop saw framing, especially like interior framing. I mean, not so, not so much like if we're framing a whole house, um, But when, when you're doing remodeling and, you know, or smaller projects, yeah, a hundred percent to, to frame a whole house with a capex miter saw your overkill.

[00:22:59] Nick Schiffer: Yeah, it's [00:23:00] overkill. And I think that the saw is just not designed for it. That's what I mean. Yeah.

[00:23:03] Eric Goranson: It's, it's meant for that. You know, if I'm, if I'm laying out. Four layers of cram molding in the, in the dining room. That's what that's meant for.

[00:23:10] Nick Schiffer: Yeah. And if, but if you're cutting like a half a dozen two by fours to frame up a small wall, yeah, totally.

[00:23:15] Nick Schiffer: But if you're blasting out a, a 8, 000 square foot frame with yeah. Hip roof and LVL is like, can it do it? Sure. Are you going to burn the motor out? Maybe is it, you know, do you, do you need to, do you need to use something like that? No. Are you going to

[00:23:31] Eric Goranson: take the Ferrari out four by four? And

[00:23:34] Nick Schiffer: right. Yeah. Some guys would, some guys would.

[00:23:38] Eric Goranson: Absolutely. That's

[00:23:39] Nick Schiffer: what the YouTube is for. Yeah. I was gonna say, I'm sure I can reference a few YouTube videos of guys doing that with a Ferrari. Absolutely.

[00:23:47] Eric Goranson: But yeah. And one of the thing I like about them too, is they stay in their lane too, by the way, this isn't supposed to be some festival commercial, but they just stay in their lane.

[00:23:55] Eric Goranson: They know what they do. Well, you know, I don't see him making margarita machines or anything

[00:23:59] Nick Schiffer: [00:24:00] crazy. No. And I, in, you know, I had the benefit of being out there early, like before they, they were like considering social media at the time, uh, and whether or not they'd have a presence on there, which is funny to think about now.

[00:24:12] Nick Schiffer: But, um, right. That was something that they talked about. Like, you know, we were talking about tools and like what they might come out with. And they were like, no, we're not going to do that. We're not going to, we're not really going to get into that space. We're not going to compete with that. Um, and they just really, like you said, they stay in their lame or, you know, they really just, you know, they know what they're good at and they're, they're focused on that product.

[00:24:34] Nick Schiffer: Um, and you know, I think things like they acquired, um, SawStop, if I, if I speaking correctly, but that made sense, you know, it's like, You know, they didn't, they didn't do it and said that now we're gonna put a sawstop in all our tools. It was just like, it made sense for the industry. It's something moving in a really good direction.

[00:24:52] Nick Schiffer: Why not? Shaper, I think, was similar where they were using the router motor. It's like, yeah, that's another. It was within [00:25:00] their wheelhouse. Um, but they're not, you know, they weren't then saying, all right, we need to, you know, create a, uh, less expensive drill or, or impact driver or whatever. Like it's, no, they were like, no, we're going to make a really nice impact driver.

[00:25:15] Nick Schiffer: That is like more, you know, variable, variable control on it. You know? Yeah. Um, yeah.

[00:25:23] Eric Goranson: Yeah. That's awesome. Technology is, is brilliant stuff. I mean, I think we've all played around with the hot dog. I've, you know. Trying to sit there and play with that. It's

[00:25:31] Nick Schiffer: cool. It is. So I hit my finger once on it. Really? Um, I did, wait, hold on.

[00:25:39] Nick Schiffer: Now I actually don't rem remember, and I say that because I know I've hit the, the, I've had the break go off of me. Yeah. But now I can't remember if it was a wet piece of water for me, wood or what? That's finger. Um, but more importantly, I, yeah, I've seen the hotdog videos a million times I've seen in person, but I saw a video the other day that surfaced of a [00:26:00] guy using his hand.

[00:26:02] Nick Schiffer: Oh. In a demonstration at a trade show. I'm like, who proved that? Yeah, and no one and he was just like, watch and he slid his hand and of course, like the break went off. But it's I'm like, dude, all I thought about was years ago I saw this Volvo commercial when they came out with the automatic braking when they saw a pedestrian and the video was like the guy just hit the gas and someone has shut it off.

[00:26:27] Nick Schiffer: And the dude like hit the dude, like hit the guy in front of him. It was like supposed to be this huge demonstration. Yeah. And it was totally right. And all I thought about when he put his hand, I'm like, dude, like, yeah. I mean, it's designed for that. And I, and, and wonderful that you have the confidence, but it's not designed.

[00:26:45] Nick Schiffer: It's designed for... I'm not betting my own hand on that. Exactly. But... Yeah. Yeah. It is. I mean, it's... Regardless if I, if it was my finger or a piece of wet wood, I mean, when it goes off, it's like, damn, that was... [00:27:00] That was, it lets you know, I did

[00:27:01] Eric Goranson: the hot dog thing for TV. We're shooting a TV segment on tools and soft opera up was there five or six years ago

[00:27:07] Nick Schiffer: and boom.

[00:27:09] Nick Schiffer: Yeah. Oh my God. It's, I mean, it's loud. It's like, you don't even know what happened. No, you're just like, wait, uh, where's the blade. It sounds

[00:27:18] Eric Goranson: like a, like a 50 pound piece of steel lands on your deck of your table saw. Yes.

[00:27:23] Nick Schiffer: Yes. And then, and, and it goes from being very loud because the, the Just dead quiet.

[00:27:31] Nick Schiffer: And then everyone else gets quiet because they're like, what the hell was that? Yeah. It's like, Oh, just my saw automatically like eating a blade. Yeah. Eating itself

[00:27:42] Eric Goranson: works well though. Works

[00:27:43] Nick Schiffer: well. Yeah,

[00:27:44] Eric Goranson: for sure. You know, how many contractors do we know out there that have missing fingers or cut hands or

[00:27:50] Nick Schiffer: most?

[00:27:52] Nick Schiffer: Yeah. See? Yeah. I, yeah. My, uh, this, I'll never forget that. [00:28:00] I, I was, I was building this shed for, uh, this family, and I want to say it was like in November, because I remember being a little cold, I had a sweatshirt on, had gloves on, and I was cutting the last piece of trim for the shed, and I was pushing, uh, it was a craftsmanship, a craftsman, yeah, not craftsmanship, a craftsman table saw.

[00:28:21] Nick Schiffer: Uh, it was A little old school. It was actually a shop one. So it had like the metal base bolted to it, but I used to bring, I used to bring it out to the job site and so I'm pushing the last piece of trim. It's probably 22 and a half inches wide. Always push it through without a push stick like my whole life.

[00:28:38] Nick Schiffer: Like that was just, you know, it was just what I did, but I don't typically wear gloves because I don't typically have gloves on and the, my glove wasn't super loose, but it was loose enough that it caught the index finger in the blade and it pulled my hand like sideways across the blade and it snapped my middle [00:29:00] finger knuckle.

[00:29:01] Nick Schiffer: It cracked that sideways and then it hit my ring finger and it cracked that knuckle sideways and then the blade, I still have the line of my nail went up my fingernail and when it hit my knuckle. My recollection is that the blade jammed on my knuckle. Oh, dude.

[00:29:17] Eric Goranson: And knuckle was the new saw stop piece of aluminum.

[00:29:19] Eric Goranson: Yeah,

[00:29:20] Nick Schiffer: yes. And I reached down and I shut the table saw off and I look, I like look at my hand and my glove had like pulled down a little bit. So sure. So it looked like I cut all my fingers off some like, you know, yeah, you're everywhere. It's coming. Yeah, I throw the glove. Which I never found after that, which was super weird.

[00:29:40] Nick Schiffer: But I take the glove off and I throw it and I'm like, Oh my God. Okay. I think I'm okay. And this is how I'm reacting in the moment. I'm like, all right, I'm good. This hurts, but I'm gonna tape it up. So I go to my trailer. I'm looking for electrical tape. Of course, blue tape. Electrical tape is

[00:29:55] Eric Goranson: better than blue

[00:29:56] Nick Schiffer: tape.

[00:29:56] Nick Schiffer: Yep. And can't find any. So I find tape [00:30:00] dope and I'm like, all right, this should work. So I wrap up my fingers with tape dope and it's like, no, like blood's like just pouring out of my fingers and no one's home at the house. And so I don't know what to do here. I'm like, I, I, I need someone to help me bandage my hand.

[00:30:17] Nick Schiffer: So I call the non emergency line and I'm like, Hey, I don't, this is an emergency. And they're like, okay, what's going on? I'm like, I'm at such and such a dress. I cut my hand on the table saw. I just don't have any bandages and I'm bleeding pretty bad. And I just want, I just need someone to help me come bandage my hand.

[00:30:33] Nick Schiffer: Cause no one's home and I don't want to, I can't drive because there's blood spraying on my finger. And they're like, okay, no problem. And so I'm sitting there and then I call my brother. I'm like, Hey, what are you up to? Uh, no, I'm sorry. I call one of my friends. I'm like, Hey, what are you up to? And he's like, he's like, oh, I'm out riding four wheelers.

[00:30:51] Nick Schiffer: I'm like, all right, nevermind. He goes, why? I'm like, I just needed help with something, but enjoy. I'll talk to you later. Yeah, and then and later on, you're

[00:30:59] Eric Goranson: so much [00:31:00] like me. This is scary

[00:31:01] Nick Schiffer: dude. Later on. I told him he goes, dude, I would have got in my truck. I'm like, no, no, don't worry about it. So I call my brother and I'm like, and I tell him, I'm like, Hey, this is what's going on.

[00:31:08] Nick Schiffer: I just need you to come. Oh, I'm sorry. No, this I haven't talked. I waited for the fire engine. So I'm like looking for the glove. Can't find the glove. I hear the fire engine coming. I'm like, Oh my God, they have the sirens on. Like, yeah, they're coming full blown right before they pull in the driveway. The homeowner comes home, of course, and she's like, what's going on?

[00:31:27] Nick Schiffer: I'm like, Oh, I just got my hand. Everything's okay. And she's like, are you sure? I'm like, totally fine. So the EMCs come over, they're like, what's going on? And they look at my hand. And she, uh, the EMT looks at me and she goes, Hey, you're in shock right now. I'm like, no, I'm good. She goes, no, no. Let me just explain something to you.

[00:31:44] Nick Schiffer: You're in shock. So you don't feel pain. This is a real, this is bad. And I was like, okay, she goes, you need to come with me. I'm like, no, no, no. She's like, you're, you have, you have two options. You either need to drive yourself to the hospital or you get in the ambulance. And I would recommend you get in [00:32:00] the ambulance because in about six minutes, you're about to feel pain that you've never felt before.

[00:32:06] Nick Schiffer: So I fought with her eventually got the ambulance and I call, so I call my, I call my mother at the time, but I called my brother to, I was like, Hey, I just need to go. I need you to get a ride and pick up all my tools. I couldn't pick them up. Sure. Yeah. And can you put them all in the back of my truck and just bring my truck home?

[00:32:22] Nick Schiffer: Um, to which he texted me later, like, Hey, do you have gas? Cause your fuel gauge doesn't work. I'm like, okay. Uh, I have no idea. And he goes, great. Well, I'm not getting gas because I don't have any money. So hopefully I make it home. But, so I'm in the ambulance and there, and she's like, Hey, I need to take your sweatshirt off.

[00:32:36] Nick Schiffer: I'm like, I'll, I'll take it off. And she goes, I'm going to cut it off. And I was like, beside myself, I was like, no, this is my favorite work sweatshirt. And she's like getting the scissors and she's like cutting my sweatshirt off. And then all of a sudden, pain. And I went into like crazy pain. I get to the hospital.

[00:32:53] Nick Schiffer: I'm. Like, I was at, I was in so, so much pain and they gave me, I mean, they gave me [00:33:00] a ton of drugs, like pain meds and anti anxiety because I was losing my mind. I would, and, and they were like, okay, you know, you have a, like, you're not, this isn't taking very well. Um, and the next thing I know I wake up and I'm, you know.

[00:33:17] Nick Schiffer: Bandaged up. Bandaged up. And, um, they never healed correctly. I think they did a bad job splinting them, but yeah, I mean, I can't like, I can't get them to fully extend straight. Oh yeah. So they drew, um, but like that is fine. And that's good. That's good. Yeah. So there's my story. Oh man.

[00:33:37] Eric Goranson: I'm not even going to tell mine on here.

[00:33:39] Eric Goranson: Cause mine's brutal, but I'll tell you after the show. All right. But yeah, it's brutal, but we all have those. We all have those.

[00:33:47] Nick Schiffer: The only other time I really got hurt. The least that I can remember is I was building a doghouse and I was holding the wall with my knee and I used, I, I framed, I was using a framing gun and I went, went to, to, [00:34:00] uh, nail the top plate on top of this little 18 inch stud for the doghouse.

[00:34:05] Nick Schiffer: And the thing hit a knot, came out and went right into the side of my knee and it didn't hit a bone or anything, but I had, I had to lift the doghouse up. And like, like off my leg, uh, because it like, you know, shot me down to the ground essentially. But

[00:34:20] Eric Goranson: yeah, Tony, I went into the side of your knee.

[00:34:22] Nick Schiffer: Nice.

[00:34:22] Nick Schiffer: Yeah, exactly. So yeah, I mean, it's, uh, to think about, you know, what year it was then and like how technology that's, let's go back to tech for a second. That's one of the benefits of tech is that it's, it is evolving very quickly and you're seeing major advancements. It's unfortunate that it's littered with a lot of BS, which put anything right.

[00:34:43] Nick Schiffer: And, you know, and my thought on that, right. Is everyone, you know, there's a lot of talk about how, you know, media and influence on media and social media and stuff like that is, is negative. It's like, no, the, the reason it's [00:35:00] so negative is that it's always existed at this level. And I'm relating it to like having bad product.

[00:35:07] Nick Schiffer: The reason there's always been bad product, there's not more of it. You just are more aware of it now because it's very easy to find that information. So a

[00:35:17] Eric Goranson: hundred percent. And you know, it's, it's, it's crazy. And, and I, I talk about on the show, this a lot is, you know, there's, there's bad products out there.

[00:35:26] Eric Goranson: There's, I mean, you and I can both walk into. Home Depot and Lowe's, and if somebody said, okay, I'm gonna give you a 500 bucks, go bring me 10 items that don't meet building code. We can all go walk around the store and go one of those, one of those, one of those,

[00:35:45] Nick Schiffer: but they still sell them.

[00:35:49] Eric Goranson: And that's the challenge I think for builders and homeowners out there is that just because it's sold out there doesn't mean it should be used.

[00:35:56] Nick Schiffer: Yeah. I mean, it's the same thing with the car industry too, right? [00:36:00] Like, you know, someone will sell you a, you know, a cool exhaust system that deletes the muffler and the D the, the, the DPF on a diesel, but you know, it's for off road use only. Yeah. Uh, I mean, Massachusetts, like we have a strict plumbing code and it's, you know, if it's not on the approved.

[00:36:20] Nick Schiffer: Um, fix your list. It's illegal. And there's these bottle traps that, you know, are super common to be specked. Every job will spec them. And my plumber's like, I can't use that. It's not mass compliant. And it's, it's silly, but they'll like every, every yard will, I mean, every, uh, plumbing supply house will sell it because it's, it's a, it's a good looking product.

[00:36:43] Nick Schiffer: And then it's, you know, it's the same like arc fault breakers, you know, it's, you know, they're, they're an absolute nightmare because it's like, dude, they keep tripping. Like you're a bad builder. Your electrician sucks. It's like, no, the code requires us to put these in. It's like, well, I want them out. It's like, then you need to sign something that you say that you're [00:37:00] okay with being liable for us.

[00:37:02] Nick Schiffer: Not. You know, abiding by the code and, and, and we, and yeah, there's clients that will pay to have us come back and take them out and swap them.

[00:37:13] Eric Goranson: And the hard part is, is, you know, due to all the crazy lawyers out there, does that form even protect you? You know what I mean? I mean, that's the tough part,

[00:37:21] Nick Schiffer: right?

[00:37:22] Nick Schiffer: Yeah. It's like the fire, you know, whatever, like the panel catches fire. It's like, has nothing to do with the breaker. It's like, well, he didn't have the right breakers in there. So. You know what I mean? It's like, yeah, but those breakers have been around for like four years. So pretty sure they're okay.

[00:37:39] Nick Schiffer: Yeah,

[00:37:40] Eric Goranson: well, it's like, it's great example. It's like, how many people want to put that chandelier over the bathtub?

[00:37:44] Nick Schiffer: Everyone, but

[00:37:48] Eric Goranson: everybody wants to do it, but it's in my Pinterest picture.

[00:37:52] Nick Schiffer: It's like, you know, electrical code. Yeah, the inspector walks in. It's like, Oh, nice blank plate above your bathtub. Oh, dude, it's like, Oh, I had a [00:38:00] splice.

[00:38:00] Nick Schiffer: I had to bury. He's like, yeah, I hope it's anchored to an LVL up there when you hang your chandelier from it. It's like, uh, accurate,

[00:38:10] Eric Goranson: accurate. Yeah. It's every inspector sees that plate up there and just shakes their head and walks off going. I know exactly what's going to happen here.

[00:38:17] Nick Schiffer: Yeah. But yeah, it's a true, I mean, I get it.

[00:38:20] Nick Schiffer: And I understand why. You know, these codes are in place. I mean, it's, it's funny. I was having this conversation last night about, um, pregnancy. I have three kids and my, we're, we're gonna have a fourth kid. Thanks. And my wife is going to kill me because I've mentioned that now on three podcasts and she's like, we never tell anyone.

[00:38:40] Nick Schiffer: Yeah. And now I'm telling like 30, 000 people at once. Um, but yeah. But point being is like, there's all these rules about pregnancy and it's like, you can't eat this. You can't eat that. You can't, you can't drink. It's like, no, you can drink. You just can't be an alcoholic. Yeah, like you can have that

[00:38:57] Eric Goranson: glass of wine.

[00:38:57] Eric Goranson: Yeah. However, comma, you're not supposed to [00:39:00] have the two magnums at

[00:39:01] Nick Schiffer: one time. Exactly. And this is in, and I relate it to like how building code and, and, you know, and products are, are, you know, uh, controlled. It's like, well, they have to plan for the person that goes way beyond what their intent is. It's like, Hey, yeah, you can do that, but don't, don't.

[00:39:21] Nick Schiffer: You know, don't avoid like best practice because of it. Yeah. I think about like the charcoal filters, right? Like on plumbing stacks, we're not allowed to use mass and in some States you can. And sometimes I've seen them when they put the charcoal filter underneath an Island cabinet, we're not allowed to do that.

[00:39:38] Nick Schiffer: We have to bow, vent it. And, but you know, The charcoal filter would work and it, it, it would actually work quite well. But the problem is, is like they decide that they're not allowed because then they just don't even vent the thing to the roof. Like, Oh, I'll just put a charcoal filter on it and call it good.

[00:39:53] Nick Schiffer: It's like, no, no, no. That is the reason they are not allowed is because you're taking advantage of it. Absolutely. It's, you [00:40:00] know, and, and I think that, you know, even tool companies, right? Like, you know, going back to table saws, it's like, Hey, you have to have the guard on your blade. It's like, sure. I'll have the guard on my blade, you know, on my, my contractor version table saw out in the field when I'm ripping a 45 on a two by four, I'll make sure my guard is on my blade.

[00:40:23] Eric Goranson: Negative. My guard is in this great tool bench. It's down below sitting there and it's been there for two years, right?

[00:40:30] Nick Schiffer: Like, it's just not sorry guys. And it's just being honest. You know, we actually just hired, um, a safety officer for our tech, our company, because we were like, all right, let's get legit.

[00:40:40] Nick Schiffer: You know, we're getting bigger, faster. And I want to be, I want, I want my guys to be safe. I want my, my subs to be safe. My, my partners to be safe. I want everyone to be safe. And. And, but there's times where it's like, well, what, like, what if you don't have a place to tie off and it's, it's like, well, you actually don't need to tie [00:41:00] off in that scenario.

[00:41:01] Nick Schiffer: And it's like, I didn't know that. And it's like, you know, there's, if, if you're creating more danger for yourself, they're like, you just have to have a plan in place. Like, what is your plan? Like, if you're, if you're going to do something, what, like, how are, how are you taking the best Measures to prevent an accident and it's and again, it's like, yeah, you know, they want you to have the table saw guard on at all times.

[00:41:25] Nick Schiffer: But there's a lot of times where if that that guy that guard is on, you actually run the risk of. You know, creating a more dangerous environment. So

[00:41:34] Eric Goranson: yeah, there are times that that, that, that guard gets in the way and causes more headaches than if

[00:41:38] Nick Schiffer: it wasn't sitting there. Sure. Or creates bind and the, and the, the piece kicks back.

[00:41:42] Nick Schiffer: I mean, yeah. You know, the, and listen, I, I'm watching all of these manufacturers like design better and better guards and it, and I think that it's super smart and they have to, because the, the use, the, the use of those guards is, is. Probably small, like very, very [00:42:00] small and they're just looking to go from like 1 percent usage to 2 percent and like, just make an improvement, like get more people to use them, figure out how to make it safer.

[00:42:09] Nick Schiffer: And it's like, and of course, like you can like saw stops a great example, like, all right, well, without the guard on it, like we have this in place to prevent an accident. It's like, great, there's, there's a way to counteract the difficulties of having a guard is having some sort of other plan to prevent accident.

[00:42:28] Eric Goranson: Yeah, it's, it's, you know, in our field here, it's that, it's the extension ladders, the roofs, the table saws, the air nailers, that's, that's where the problems arise.

[00:42:39] Nick Schiffer: Yeah. And that's, I mean, and that's where, like, like I said, when we hired the safety officer, I'm like, there's times I'm not sure what the rule is.

[00:42:46] Nick Schiffer: It's like, you know, these guys are up in a man basket on a lull. Like do they, like, what's the rule for being tied off? Are they tied off to the basket or are they tied off to the house? You know, and it's like scissor lifts, like you're actually don't want to tie off in [00:43:00] those apparently. And it's like, or, or you do when there is like this in place.

[00:43:04] Nick Schiffer: So having, having someone, you know, uh, on retainer is, has been helpful where it's like when we get into a new situation, he comes out, he does an inspection with us and then he walks through like, Hey, these are the, these are what we need to address. And this is how I would address it. And having a plan going into place.

[00:43:20] Nick Schiffer: And yeah, I mean, it's, again, it's, you know, it's a small investment for, you know, hopefully a better future for everyone that's involved in our project.

[00:43:29] Eric Goranson: Absolutely. Hey, I wanted to ask you, Nick, uh, trades, man, we, we still have this trade shortage and it seems like it's getting worse, not better. What's your predictions out there?

[00:43:39] Eric Goranson: I ask everybody that comes on in our fields here that, uh, what do you see out there with the new kids coming into the trades? I mean, there's such a great opportunity out there for men and women,

[00:43:49] Nick Schiffer: a lot of feelings on this. Um, number one, I think that there was this huge push to make the trades more attractive and like create awareness like five years ago.

[00:43:59] Nick Schiffer: [00:44:00] And I think that we did that. Um, and I think there's a massive amount of interest in the trades. Um, but coincidentally, during the time of creating all this awareness, we ripped out the education, you know, my, my tech school, you know, I was talking to one of the teachers that. Uh, teaches there because we actually brought in one of the students as an intern.

[00:44:24] Nick Schiffer: I was like, yeah, dude, like, he's like, Hey, do you have, I'm like, send me any kid that you think is worthy of being in the trade. Send them my way. I'll, I'll, I'll find, find something for him to do. Um, but I was chatting with him. I'm like, Oh, is cabinet making still there? And he's like, no, they, they actually combined with house carpentry.

[00:44:42] Nick Schiffer: That's. Two different, two different trades is metal is machine shop still there. He's like, no, that's kind of combined with welding. I'm like, also two different trades. Yeah. And he's like, what about auto body? He's like that combined with mechanics. I'm like, [00:45:00] all right, this is nobody's thinking this out.

[00:45:02] Nick Schiffer: Yeah. Like what you guys, you know, and it's because, you know, I actually, I shouldn't say it's because, because I don't, I don't know the root. The real cause of it. You know, there's, there's talk that it's money, that it's this, that it's that, that no one wants to be in it. But then it's like you hear all these kids that do want to be in it.

[00:45:21] Nick Schiffer: Um, so you asked what my, what my predictions are. I think that I think my prediction is that labor is going to continue to become more expensive. Um, and what that's going to do is it's going to continue to force innovation and, and alternative ways to build. I think that offsite construction is going to, uh, continue to grow.

[00:45:46] Nick Schiffer: I think, I think factory built homes is something that is where, you know, dare I say, just scratching the surface on. 100 percent agree. 100 percent agree. I think that, you know, we are going [00:46:00] to be required to be more efficient with material and labor. Um, I think that's going to put a huge strain on people that have been in this industry for more than a decade because they quote unquote have been doing this for more than 10 years and they have their ways of doing it.

[00:46:16] Nick Schiffer: And I think that's going to be very difficult for that, that, that group of people. I think that you're going to see people that weren't necessarily looking to get into, uh, construction, get into construction because of the tech backbone of it, um, such as automation and factories and, and BIM and, and, and CAD and things like that, uh, and modeling and solid works, all that stuff, right.

[00:46:41] Nick Schiffer: Yeah. Uh, software. Um, and I think that we will be required to have a better. Outlook and path for people that do want to be in the trade. And I say that knowing that I'm working, I'm, [00:47:00] I'm struggling to work on that for my own company in the sense, like I want a very clear path for my people. Where you come in and you are, you are zero, like a zero, meaning like you have no experience.

[00:47:16] Nick Schiffer: This is what, this is what we can offer you at that level. And if you want to get to a one, a two, a three, all the way up to say 10, here are the things that are required of you. Here are the. the milestones that you need to hit. Here's the extracurricular, you know, training that you need to take part of.

[00:47:34] Nick Schiffer: Here's the things that you need to be able to do, you know, proficiently. And that I think being being able to communicate that and share that with someone will help counteract the desire to constantly jump ship and move to different companies, which means that people will find a place [00:48:00] for their career and their future.

[00:48:03] Nick Schiffer: In a way that they have more control over and, and, and with like, with that being said, I think that having the self guided control is really important where it's like you think about like the people that work from home and get to create their own schedule. Like we don't, the guys in the trades don't get to do that.

[00:48:23] Nick Schiffer: They don't get to work from home. They, they are very much on a schedule. Like, you know, I get that the 40 hour work week came from the assembly line, but that has been adapted. That is the norm. We don't technically, typically work on weekends. Some guys do. Some guys work seven days a week, but there is this, this understanding that you in construction, you work.

[00:48:46] Nick Schiffer: Between particular hours, you know, like the and then everything beyond that is overtime, right, which is extra. But point. My point is, is that there's less flexibility as to when you work where I think [00:49:00] that's going to continue to push the, the. The pressure on us as business owners and leaders to, okay, if that's like, that's something that they can't control, they need to be in control of their career, of their earnings and whether that's, you know, their, their, their annual pay increase, whether that's a bonus structure, whether that's a career map, you know, in order to retain people.

[00:49:26] Nick Schiffer: Not only within your company, but in the construction industry as a whole, people are like, people are going to individually want to understand how they get to their goal of six figures a year or beyond.

[00:49:41] Eric Goranson: I think it's going to be very interesting for, you know, the entry level to mid level home out there, how I think that we are just coming over that hill of the factory built home that that's really going to be where.

[00:49:55] Eric Goranson: Those developments can be built so much more efficiently with better yields out of [00:50:00] all the materials, safer working environments, because you're not up there at 32 degrees with a torch, taking the ice off the roof toe to put ice and water shield

[00:50:09] Nick Schiffer: down. Yeah, I mean, it's a great, great point about the safety, right?

[00:50:15] Nick Schiffer: Where it's, you know, the. The ability to not only build it off site for the, the yellow materials, but, and then the controlled environments, but it's also the safety of the guys and, you know, an efficiency of guys where, you know, the other, the other side of this is that, yeah, we do want more people in the trades, but we're not going to be able to replenish the people that are leaving the trades at the same rate.

[00:50:39] Nick Schiffer: And we might never replenish that amount of people. So, you know, while, while we want to continue to, um, attract people to be in the trade, we also have to understand that we need to innovate in a way that requires less people to, to do this work. And there's a big argument there where it's like we shouldn't be so focused on [00:51:00] getting rid of the quote unquote craftsmanship.

[00:51:01] Nick Schiffer: We should be focused on getting people interested in it. It's like, that's a fair point. Yeah. You are never going to have the same amount of people in this because that's just not the world we live in anymore. Everything is being automated. Everything is being technologically advanced, and we need to, we need to encourage and support that.

[00:51:18] Nick Schiffer: So the more you work against that, the further and further you'll end up being behind everyone else. So true.

[00:51:28] Eric Goranson: So true. You know, it's, it's interesting out there. I think that it's going to create healthier homes as well because we're not having to take our homes and put them in, you know, in the conditions that they are in with rain and weather and things like that as well.

[00:51:44] Eric Goranson: I mean, there's, there's going to be a lot of pluses and minus with, is it going to, is that 40, 000 square foot home going to be a modular home? Probably not. Yeah.

[00:51:52] Nick Schiffer: No, but there will be parts of it that are like, I think about, you know, so, um, [00:52:00] Encore casinos built a place in Boston and my wife and I stayed there one, uh, one night and I walked in the hotel room and she's like, what are you doing?

[00:52:10] Nick Schiffer: I'm like, I just need, like, this place is amazing. Yeah. She's like, what are you talking about? I'm like, the detail, like the door casing, like, and she's li and. And I'm like, and this thing was built in like 18 months, like this massive hotel. And so I really started like looking at things and like, like I was just obsessing over it.

[00:52:30] Nick Schiffer: Well, that's how we do it. We walk into buildings and do that. Totally. But what I realized is I'm like, they're like, well, how, how do you think they, they got all this casing to be so tight? I'm like, this was all made in a factory. Spray. It was totally painted. They figured out how to pre build everything on a shop bench and fabricate it in a way that could be brought on site and installed in 20 seconds.

[00:52:52] Nick Schiffer: And it looks dynamite. It looks like someone, someone sat there and sanded and made that thing [00:53:00] perfect and sprayed it and you know, and then protected it all the way through construction. It's like, no BS dude. Like that stuff

[00:53:06] Eric Goranson: on a commercial job site. That's usually where you see the lowest quality craftsmanship, not the highest.

[00:53:11] Nick Schiffer: Exactly. And it's like, and, and to think that, you know, this is what, this is how we can, we could build that 40, 000 square foot house is that you think about, okay, maybe that thing doesn't show up in, on, on trailers and goes to get together like a Lego set. But maybe it comes panelized, maybe it's built in a factory and panels, and maybe the roof is pre cut and they can fabricate it while they're standing walls up and then they crane it over and maybe all the interior doors are already pre done and pre made on one side pre k like, and yeah, okay, you immediately think, oh yeah, but pre k is like, that's the crap you see at Home Depot.

[00:53:50] Nick Schiffer: It's like, you know. Well, not necessarily, not necessarily like it could be at a higher quality just because you're, I'm not talking about 110 door. I'm talking about a, [00:54:00] uh, 5, 000 pre hung door. Exactly. And it's, you know, and it's, and it's done at a level that, you know, can be done, can be, uh, at a very high quality.

[00:54:13] Nick Schiffer: Yeah, you

[00:54:13] Eric Goranson: and I could sit here in 20 minutes and figure out how that could

[00:54:15] Nick Schiffer: be done. Yeah. And that's the thing is like, we are so in this industry, we're so reactive. So we're always like facing the problem that's right in front of us where, you know, well, we need to be thinking about bigger picture. We need to be thinking about, you know, how do we do something faster and I'm going to use this example.

[00:54:36] Nick Schiffer: I've been using it a lot, but it's, you know, this whole hurricane down in Florida, you know, disconnected the bridge from, um, Naples to Sanibel island. Great example. Dude, this, this bridge would have taken months to typically repair. Army Corps came in fixed in seven days. And the article went on to say, it's like, actually, I don't even know.

[00:54:55] Nick Schiffer: I think someone referenced it on LinkedIn, but it was, well, how could they have done it [00:55:00] in seven days? Because they wanted to, yeah, they

[00:55:03] Eric Goranson: didn't go get a bunch of weird environmental permits. They came in with dump trucks and said, we need to put a bunch of rock right here. We need to fill this in, we need to build a retaining wall and we're just going to make this

[00:55:12] Nick Schiffer: thing work, but, but absolutely accurate.

[00:55:16] Nick Schiffer: But beyond that, it was the fact that they wanted to get it done in seven days. And when you want to get something like you want to build that, that hotel in 18 months, you can do it. And when my, when I, when I challenged my team where it's like, Hey, I don't want to build this house in 20 months, we told the client 18 we're doing an 18 and they're like, there's just no way to do it.

[00:55:36] Nick Schiffer: I'm like, that's not true. It is not true. 100%. And you, you can't sit here and tell me that we can't build this house in 18 months. You have to come to me. If you came to me and said, Hey, I'll build this house in 18 months, but it's going to cost you another 50 grand because I need to, You know, pay, pay, you know, X amount of more people to show up, right?

[00:55:57] Nick Schiffer: Fees, labor, whatever. Yeah. Okay. Then, [00:56:00] then we address whether the 50, 000 is a worthy investment or not. Don't say like, it's always doable. We can build that. I'm going to use a terrible example, but you could build that house in a couple of weeks, just like they did on, uh, the extreme home makeover. And listen, and listen, yeah.

[00:56:18] Nick Schiffer: And I mean, listen, I know that there was problems with those homes, but the point is. The point is, there is a way to do it. Yeah. Whether it's right or wrong is, we can determine that once we figure out, like, how do we get to that end result. And if it, and for us, it's quality first and then price and schedule are, are organized in the second and third spot.

[00:56:43] Nick Schiffer: So if it's quality and schedule, so price is going to be hugely inflated in order to deliver on that. Right. Yeah. And, you know, and, but if we get to a point where it's like, all right, well schedule, like we can't continue to like compress that because we just physically don't like, there's no [00:57:00] possible way to compress it anymore.

[00:57:01] Nick Schiffer: We have a thousand people on the job site and now everyone's working inefficiently. Okay, well, that, that, that doesn't make sense. What does, can we fabricate the house and offsite and then bring it on, you know, in a helicopter and drop it in place and it costs 7 million to helicopter. Okay. Does it make sense?

[00:57:20] Nick Schiffer: No. Okay. That's off the table. But the point is, is like you, like, that's where I find most of my time is spent now is like challenging the way we do things. And when it's, you can't do that. Okay. Why not? Walk me through that. Why can't you do that? Because in my opinion, like you could, and we talked about this in the cabinet shop too.

[00:57:39] Nick Schiffer: It's like, you know, I'll say, Oh, why don't we, you know, do this, that, that and the other thing. And they're like, you can't do that. I'm like, well, what if, you know, what if you had a piece of hardware that did this and like the door swung that way and then it did this and they're like, yeah, but that hardware doesn't exist.

[00:57:54] Nick Schiffer: I'm like, so. Could you think we could make it? Well, I [00:58:00] mean, I'm like, exactly. I'm not saying that it's the right answer. I'm saying it needs to be thought about. And when we go turn around and ask someone like, Hey, can you make this hardware for us and it's 10, 000, it's like, all right, well, maybe it doesn't make sense for this one project, but is that a product that we can then go sell?

[00:58:18] Nick Schiffer: Can we make, can we make a hundred thousand units and so on? Yeah. Like it's, you know, and this is, you know, this is where I get really excited. And why I like the position I'm in with my, my teams now is that I'm the one that constantly is like, walk. You got to prove that you can't do this because like I get that there's some, if it's money, okay.

[00:58:39] Nick Schiffer: How much money, you know? Yeah. I had that on a

[00:58:42] Eric Goranson: project I had, uh, geez, this was 15 years ago. It was Bill Gates father's house. Now we went in, it was a trust. And I mean, this was probably the craziest job site measure. I walked in with the, with the remodeler and I'm the cabinet guy. We walk in, there's armed guards.

[00:58:57] Eric Goranson: They have dog smell in my car. I mean, they're [00:59:00] years under the car. Like I'm at the embassy. Oh my God. You know, literally measuring out this kitchen with Four guys in ar fifteens and tactical vests. You know what ? Oh yeah. So we're measuring this up in the, in the, and the guy out there goes, all right, we have a month to do this kitchen remodel, and it's a big kitchen.

[00:59:18] Eric Goranson: Mm. And I'm like, alright man. Um, are you gonna give us some time to spool up or is just like starting tomorrow? What's, you know, what's, what's, when's this, what's the start date on things goes? Oh, start date will be in a month. So in 60 days from today, this kitchen have to be done. So I get the measurements, get the drawings, go back and head over to the c e o of the cabinet company.

[00:59:36] Eric Goranson: And I said, Same kind of thing. All right, man, here's the cabin package. I need this done in three weeks. He's like, we have an eight week lead time. I said, that's not the question I asked, right? What's it going to cost to get this done in three weeks? It's always

[00:59:53] Nick Schiffer: price at it. Well, well, you know, I'd have to call this guy and see if I can delay his kitchen.

[00:59:57] Nick Schiffer: Ben call him. Well,

[00:59:59] Eric Goranson: what's [01:00:00] how many guys want to work late? So they have money for the holidays, right? What's it going to cost to, you know, overtime, 10 hours, everybody.

[01:00:08] Nick Schiffer: Yeah, no, I mean, it's, it can be done a hundred percent. And then, and that, you know, going back to like something we talked about earlier is this is where we, we need to think differently.

[01:00:19] Nick Schiffer: We need to be more creative with the constraints that were, that, that are put on us in construction. You know, I, I truthfully as a builder want to get to a point where I can look at a client and guarantee my profit, my, my budget and guarantee my schedule. And, you know, and I say that year after year and I've never been able to do it and it's incredibly frustrating.

[01:00:43] Nick Schiffer: And, you know, and I'm not sure what your listener base is, but I'm sure a bunch of people just scoffed at me like, yeah, sure, man. Like, no one's ever going to guarantee that, but I do. That is the goal. And I don't want to, I don't want to guarantee it because I fluffed the number. I want to guarantee it because I know that we can, we can execute at a high [01:01:00] level.

[01:01:00] Nick Schiffer: Yes. Like, I mean, like, you know, like military, like they come in, we have a process, we follow the process. We, we, and that's, and that takes, you know, from day zero to day 700. I mean, it's going to be every step of the way, you know, has been figured out and we know where our, our, the holes are and we're going to work as a team to make sure those holes get filled.

[01:01:23] Eric Goranson: Amen, brother, man. Where is this hour gone, man,

[01:01:26] Nick Schiffer: bro? I don't know. This is quick, doesn't it? These podcast. Yeah, it's like every time I'm like, man, there it goes. If I did a podcast every day, I would just, you know, I, I, I talk all day. Yeah, you

[01:01:39] Eric Goranson: and me both. You and me both. What are we not hit on today, brother?

[01:01:42] Eric Goranson: Anything else you want to

[01:01:43] Nick Schiffer: say? I don't know, man. I, I'm just, no, I think I, I think I actually got out a lot of what's on my mind. Um, I'm excited about 23, you know, obviously we've got the building company material millwork, our millwork company, um, super excited about just the opportunity [01:02:00] to expand that, um, motif media, who has been producing all of our content from video, uh, as well as, Are the modern craftsman podcast, uh, and of course the podcast, I mean, it's been this labor of love for five or six years now, and you know, we are getting to a point where we're restructuring a little bit, uh, and getting, yeah, and getting excited about, you know, what we can do with it in the future and really position ourselves to, to help the industry.

[01:02:32] Nick Schiffer: And that is at the end of the day, what I hope, uh, my professional legacy. leaves. So where do people find this

[01:02:40] Eric Goranson: podcast,

[01:02:41] Nick Schiffer: Nick? On any podcast platform. So modern craftsman, um, you type that in on any platform, um, where we are actually launched on YouTube. Uh, so we're going to be sharing all of our, all of them on YouTube and yeah, any, any, any podcast platform.

[01:02:57] Eric Goranson: Thanks for coming on today, brother. This is great. We'll

[01:02:59] Nick Schiffer: do it [01:03:00] again. Yeah, man. I appreciate you. All

[01:03:01] Eric Goranson: right, Nick Schiffer, NS Builders. Thanks for coming on today, brother. This is great. You're listening to Around the House.