If you don't own your life, if you don't create it, if you're not the one that says yes and no, if you're not the one that is willing to take risk, push the edges, make mistakes, take your wins, and celebrate, then who's gonna do it? Nobody is. And you're gonna end up one day waking up and going, what happened to my life?

So going back to one thing that you just said, so you were in the first Star Wars?

Yeah. My, my, the kids who come to the school love it, believe it or not. They still watch that movie all the time. The very first one, episode four.

How did you get into it?

Um, I trained, uh, elephants at Marine World Africa, USA in Redwood City back then, and that's a whole nother story, but I had like 10 elephants and one of 'em was named Margie. And we got this call from the Hollywood Boys and they said that they're making a movie called Star Wars, and they wanted to, they asked if we could, they could build a, uh, costume around her and make her into what's called a banta, which was in the movie. And Banta were written by these guys called Sandman or Tuscan Raiders, which were the bad guys, right? So it took two months to build the costume around her. Literally covered her entire body. I mean, she was an amazing being Margie. Mm. And, and we fed her a, a case of, uh, uh, French bread every day and a case of apples. And she would let us do it, you know, and just give her lots of love. And then we got the call to go to Death Valley and I load her into a big semi-truck. I ride in the back of the semi with the elephant the whole way. The driver was an incredible guy. We drove all the way to Death Valley. It was, you know, a full day's drive in the back with her. And we get out and we have a 15 second scene where in the movie where I jump off a cliff onto the back of a Banta. And that Banta is her and I'm a Tuscan Raider. And little did we know at the time that it was gonna be the most famous movie ever. And you know what's really interesting is too, is that movie was really about the hero's journey. Mm-hmm. And that's what my life's been about in teaching. Right. Little did I know then. Finding yourself, creating your life and doing something meaningful. Mm-hmm. That's the hero's journey. Right. And that's what that whole movie was about.

Yeah.

So, so funny how everything connects that way. Um, and then, oh, here's the greatest part too. After we were done with the movie, uh, filming our scene, we're driving back and we stop in the Mojave Desert. I asked the driver to stop. He was a great guy. His name was red. He was an old cowboy. He used to a side note. He used to take a bull whip and he'd knock things like, I didn't smoke, but I'd put a cigarette in my mouth and he'd knock it out, whip it out. And I'm like, they're talking about trust. Oh man, his name was red. And I said, let me, let me go into the Mojave Desert for a couple of days camping. I get on the back of the elephant, I go into the wilderness, it's, yeah. And uh, I pass backpackers on the trail and not even say something. And they'd see me with an elephant. I'd ride in. We camped for a few days in there, and then I came out.

What was it like having a relationship with an animal like that? Elephants

are one of the most, I I was lucky. I, I got to train elephants and chimps, chimpanzees and, you know, a lot of animal rights people over the years have tried, have stopped those kind of things like circuses and shows, and I understand that 'cause a lot of animals are treated pretty poorly in those kinds of situations. Mm. But there, at Marine World, the animals had love beyond love and it was, it was like a beyond a life's honor to be let into their world and work with them. I get teary thinking about it. I miss it. I remember the first time I was, um, told by the trainer who left and that's where I took over outta nowhere. Right. It, it, my, you know, I just, 20, 20-year-old, you know, I look at these 20 year olds today and I, I sometimes can't imagine they could do that. He said, going back to the trainer says, you gotta go into the elephant barn. You, one of the main things you do is clean their poop up. They poop 22 times a day.

Oh man.

And there's this big bull African elephant, which no one had ever trained before, named S Samson, 14 feet tall at the show at my, and he said, you gotta go buy 'em and he's gotta accept you. And he took, he took me and threw me against the wall with his tusk. And I thought I was gonna die. And I got up and he said, you gotta fight him. And I, so I went, and you gotta fight him. You gotta fight him, but you gotta make him respect you. Remember, I'm 20 years old, I didn't know any of this and I was good with animals my whole life, you know, but that, you know, farm animals and dogs and wild animals. But, so I, I run up to him after I'd been knocked against the wall with, I had a rake for cleaning and I attacked him with the rake and a joke. This is a 14 foot, you know, 8,000 pound elephant, right. I accidentally don't get mad at me. The rake hit him in the eye and he roared up like a roar. And there were six other elephants in the barn with me, and he came down, his eye was fine, and we were like blood brothers from that day. Whoa. I would literally go in the barn and sleep with him all night long. It was like, I can't even begin to tell you how lucky I was and loved them to. Totally. And he ended up getting moved to a, a zoo in LA with a huge amount of space, and like six females and lived happily ever after Sam. You know, that's just one story of thousands. You know, I, I still sometimes can't even believe, am I telling the truth? Did I really do that? And I did.

You know. Well, I know like as I was reading your book, the Earth Caretaker Way, like one of the things is you dedicated the book to the earth. And from everything that I know about you, 'cause now we've spent a bit of time together, you know, this is, I think my fourth, third, or fourth time up here. Nature's been one of your biggest teachers, if not your greatest teacher. Can you walk me through how or when did First Nature become your teacher? When did you have that awareness and what was that journey like? In the early days,

I, I, I guess one way I could start is, is my parents, we grew up in Sunnyvale, which is now the Silicon Valley. It's not too far from me. Yeah, yeah. And but then it was not then it was Orchards, woods, creeks, great place to grow up. Wonderful. And unlike a lot of kids today, our parents would just let us out the door in the morning. And we'd see 'em at night. Mm-hmm. And there no, there's no cell phones checking on you. And the community kinda looked after you. So it was, there was nature everywhere. And so I was, I was always out in the woods somewhere and in our own backyard we had like a quarter of an acre and we had, part of it was an orchard. And I remember my, my job for the family was to grow a garden. So I became a gardener at a young age. So I learned to talk to plants, grow 'em, nurture 'em. I had fruit trees that I had a treehouse in, in the backyard. I, so there was that part. Then I think the biggest part is, and this is something I see lost today a lot too, is I had elders and mentors in my life that took me on seriously to teach me about nature. And one of the biggest ones was my grandfather who lived in Ronan, Montana, which is right next to kind of surrounded by the Flathead Indian reservation. And the flathead people, they were called the flatheads 'cause they would shave their hair flat on top. Mm. And the town was in the reservation kind of. And, um, my grandfather had a homestead, so I, I stayed with him in the summers and learned to take care of the cows and the sheep and the goats and grow plants. But again, we had complete freedom. I'd go out and fish all day in the river. Um, and the Native American people, the Indian people there, the Flatheads knew me and everybody knew everybody. So one day I'm out. So I felt very safe, you know, just to wander and be in the woods. And that's so much about, if I, if I really think about it, what's the most important part to remember that nature is the teacher. Mm. And so, my time being in nature, being, I was being taught if I'm open to receiving the teachings in nature, you know, different than you and I talking, it's more energetic. But, so the connection is always there, even for adults. You have to be out in it, you know, and be open to being taught. And I was. And so one day I'm walking along, I just fished all morning and that was a great teacher learning to fish creeks. And I hear a sound and I'm looking through these bushes and I see these three Native American elders, uh, tending a fire. And they look at me and I think, and I'm in trouble for, you know, spying on 'em. Right? And they know, they give me this wonderful look, warmth look. And I, they call me in and I come to the fire and they're doing this thing called a sweat lodge. And I didn't know that then, you know, I was 10, 10 years old. Yeah. And so they invite me in I call it the earth caretaker way. Um, they also used the term similar to that. For a life way of living your life. And it started clearly in my brain then in that sweat lodge, and I knew that my path was gonna be caretaking the earth and developing a deep relationship with the earth it was gonna take over my entire life. And I knew it then in that sweat. And I went back subsequent summers and through about till about 13 and did more sweats with them. I fell in love with the sweat lodge,

even at 10 years old. When do you recall back to that first sweat, like were you anxious, afraid, what? You know, for those that aren't familiar with what a sweat is, maybe you can just briefly or in depth go into that. Sure. Yeah.

Well, a sweat lodge is a sacred ceremony. Um, it's like a, it's, it's a dome shape, uh, covered with, uh, a dome shaped outta sticks covered with cloth. In the old days, the Native Americans would've used animal hide, and it's where you heat up rocks in front of the sweat, in a hot, in a fire. And then you bring the rocks into the sweat and then you sit in there, close the door, it's pitch black, um, and you sing songs and pray, um, with the earth. Um, that's simplifying. It's an amazing ceremony. Mm-hmm. And most Native American tribes did some type of a sweat. The sweat lodge was done by some of my ancestors. The Irish did sweats, the Russian people did sweats. Most of the northern climates had some kind of a sacred ceremony where you go in to and have a sweat lodge, you know, like a sauna, but very sacred and extreme heat really hot, makes you stay right in the moment.

The sweat lodge specifically, like one of the things, like now we've run a full retreat here for guys, we're about to come back in two days to bring and got 16 guys, uh, coming in two days for a sweat. So the sweat lodge is really how I first heard about you or found you. And it is really different than a sauna. Like yes, it's heat, but I think that's an important distinction to make. And so it's also really interesting that all of these different cultures that you're saying around the world had their version of it. And I think one of the key ingredients is that sacredness is that ceremony. But going back to when you were 10 years old, what can you share about what that was like at that age? 'cause I mean, most 40 year olds, 50 year olds are gonna be faced with their edge in a sweat. So I'm just imagining like, what was it like at a as 10 years old?

Well, I'm sure the, the three elders that took me in that first sweat, you know, they were gentle on me, but it still seemed terrifying in some ways. Yeah. But they were so welcoming and, and you, I was trained and learned to grow it up to trust elders and so I trusted them. So it took away a lot of the anxiety. Um, and yes, I got hot, I got scared, but I went through it and it was purely magical for me. And a sweat lodge is like nature, being the teacher, loving nature is one thing. And the sweat lodge, it's like you get it extra, extra, extra. Right. You're infused with nature with, with a respect for it. With a love for it. It's almost like you're injected with nature, you know, and then you come out and you're just in awe. The world looks new and fresh and, and to do that at that age, and they called, I was trying to think of it and I've forgotten, but they called the the sweat lodge way. They said Live the sweat lodge way. Mm. And to me that was the earth caretaker way, which I wrote that the book, the Earth caretaker Way, it all could track it right back to them saying, live the sweat lodge way, which is the way of the Earth. It's loving the earth, caring for the Earth, but not just that it's working for the Earth.

Mm. And that's what you've dedicated your whole life to since 10 years old. Yeah. One thing that I'm curious about, 'cause you've talked about elders and I really, I mean, one, I love the sweats that you do, the land that you're on here. All of my retreats for the last five, six years have been in Mount Shasta because every single time that I'm on this area of land, I feel like something switches inside me. And I know that many of the guys have said the same thing. Like, there is a, like this area, this land holds this, I mean, holds everybody. It holds this type of work but in addition to that, like I really consider you a wise elder. Like I know when we were here last time, like, I mean. There's not a tremendous amount of, what I would say are elders with a capital E. And so when you were saying at a young age, you learn or were taught to trust your elders, what if someone's looking for an elder? Like how do they know? Like what, what makes an elder to you, especially for someone today in the monomer, is looking for some of these wisdom teachings. How do you find an elder? How do you know? What would, what would constitute that?

That's incredibly good. Great question. I, I actually think I just turned 70 this year. Mm-hmm. So I think I'm learning to be an elder myself. I don't, I wouldn't even say I'm there yet. I'm kind of moving from a serious mentor to being an elder. And so I'm just, I'm in the discovery process. but I, I think it's, it's someone who's willing to be an incredible listener, uh, live by example, inspire people to, to be their better selves. To have an energy you put out that you're available. And a lot of it, like if people come, young people come and talk and want to get ideas from an elder, you have to really be nonjudgmental. Um, that opens the door for people to really share and learn, and that's a, that's a life journey for me. The importance of being non-judgmental is one of the greatest teachings I've ever learned. And also the hardest. I often make a joke and say, if you've been able to do it 10% in your entire life, you've done well because we humans love to be judgmental, but it keeps, when we're judgmental, that stops growth right there when the judgment comes in. And then you miss so much. So if you can just not be judgmental and be open and that puts an energy out so that people will be, feel safe to talk and share. Um. And so there's that being willing and have the energy there to be available without being judgmental is so, so important where people will come. Um, we're in a time now where, just in my lifetime, we've seen the idea of mentors and elders almost become kind of a sideline where if you go back to Native American days and before elders were the glue that held it all together for a community, and mentoring was considered vitally important. And no matter what age you are, you could be a mentor for anybody younger than you, right? And it, the greatest teachings come from your actions. Your words can be great and powerful, but if you, if your words aren't backed up by your actions, they're nothing. And I've learned that all people do this, but young people particularly watch a person's actions and they learn a lot from observing. So I think that's really, really an important one. And then the other thing is being really truthful. Not just if an elder, you know, you don't just wanna sound good all the time. Like everything's tell your story, tell, tell the hardships you've had the difficulties and how be willing to share those, that part of your life. It's not all about looking good, you know, it's about being real, if that makes any sense.

Yeah. It's not about having it all together, it's about Yeah. Being real with your journey. And that's something that, I mean, my son as, you know, Luca's, two and a half years old and I can't wait for him to, well, he'll, he might stop by in the next few days, but I can't wait for him to participate in some of what you got going here for kids. Um, that's one of the things I'm honestly most interested in. 'cause you do, I mean, you do vision quests, nature based rites of passage. You've got the scout camp, uh, survival skills, wilderness skills, that's something, um. Taking young people and even adults, but taking young people through their own hero's journey, through their own adversary, adversary moments. I want to hear, I'd love to hear about how do you, like what goes through your head when you're taking a young boy, especially through a rite of passage, and how do you know if it's safe or right for that individual at that time? Can you walk me through what you guys do here to help prepare young boys and carry them into the next stage of their evolution?

I always, I always remember that nature's the teacher, so I'm always aware of that. And no matter what I say or what I do, I allow time for them to learn from nature. So I plant a lot of seeds so that they get a deeper connection, but I let them have their experience. Mm. I don't over control it. It's not about me. Right. And they need to dig into that deep connection to nature in order. Complete a rite of passage in a deep way. One of the challenges they have in a rite of passage is they go out and sit for 24 hours alone in the woods in a shelter that they built Hmm. It's just them. And I, one of the things I teach 'em is to talk with each plant and animal that visits them or is in their space. Get to know each being individual. 'cause each one of those beings is an individual living being on this planet just like us. And we forget that every single living being on the planet's, just trying to do what we're trying to do, live their life. And when you get that and you realize we're all connected that way, we don't have to be the same. Not everybody has to be human. So that alone opens their, opens them up deeply and it helps them to, to get through that sit. They make a commitment. The other thing they, they do, and we build them up to this, the sits in, in the later part of the time they're here. They create a code of honor to live their life by. And, and that might sound really simple, but one of the things kids see today is how little honor there is anymore with adults. They, they see in the world. I mean, it's just, it's almost like laughed at now to be, to be an honorable person. So they create these codes of honor, which I know is a lifetime for them to learn to live it. But they take that out and they really make it a part of themselves. They, they study it, they spend time with it. And it's kinda like our Native American ancestors said it, it becomes your medicine if you work hard enough at like practicing kindness or being of service. These are things on the code of honor, um, having deep integrity or coming from love, things like that eventually, if, if you practice them. And nature can often be the greatest teacher at some point in your life if you're committed, fully committed to it. That's another thing on a code of honor is commitment. Uh, they become you. You don't have to read it anymore. You are those things. That's your medicine. Whatever ancestors call or we, we might call our personality, but, and it's a lifetime of work. But there are these aha moments in life. I call 'em defining moments when you realize something big. And often it can be that you are just a kind person. You are just a person of service help when help is needed, things like that. Hmm. So that the, that becomes like the foundation of the rite of passage, that code of honor, the 24 hour sit building, a deep relationship with nature, those kinds of things. So, and then there's a sweat lodge, which the sweat lodge really pushes 'em in a lot of ways. One of them is they're, there's so, so many young people today are so willing to quit or give up right when they're at that moment where if they just go a little further. Greatness happens. And sweat lodge often teaches you that is stay with it, trust and stay with it. Mm. So there's that. Um, then there's a big celebration at the end, you know, ceremony. So they see the sacredness of ceremony and when humans are at their best, helping each other be better through ceremony and through interaction. Um, our d we have six dogs. They're a huge part of our school. They open the hearts of the kids when they're here. And then I can come in and work some of my magic. You know, they really do. I mean, I, I mean that, I don't just say that 'cause it sounds good. Dogs are a part of the school. I mean, I plan that. Um, that's just a quick talk about it. There's a big celebration at the end. And then they got the hardest thing in the world to do, right? They gotta go live as men of honor, young men growing into adult men in a world. And I say this sadly, that doesn't particularly always. Respect that. Mm-hmm. You know, so they could be the last man standing and they've gotta stay with that code of honor and live it.

Is there a student, 'cause I'm imagining like most of the kids of today, 'cause we're talking about an age, what, around like 11 to 13 somewheres in there? Uh,

13, 14 and up.

13, 14. Yeah. Okay.

12 is a little bit young, you know, and, and when a, a rite of passage happens, it's not like they're losing their childhood. They're growing into adulthood. So there's a period, you know, you still get to be both the child. And now here's another thing though. And modern parents struggle with letting their kids grow up. Just a huge over control thing going on, particularly in the modern world with cell phones constantly checking on them. We never had that. See, I'm so thankful for that. What it would be like today if I had like a cell phone, I was being tracked by my parents.

You still have a flip phone?

Yeah. Parents actually track their kids.

Yeah,

right. We do that with one of our dogs. We have a bad a dog who wanders and Julie put a tracker on him and he, I can't believe where that dog goes that we didn't know. Now Mitch, people must be going, oh, my kid's going over there. He is going over. But they don't. And is it scary to have a kid and think, oh yeah, something bad could happen to him? It's terrifying.

Yeah.

And yes, something could happen, but life is a risk. There's no guarantees. Right.

Well, I think one of the challenging things is most kids are just so poorly trained and don't like, and that's, that's another thing I'm really curious about because you got all these young kids coming to you, which is just a phenomenal experience. However, what they're coming from by and large is endless hours in front of the computer. Gaming crap, food, artificial lights all the time. Probably little to no. Like they pulled PE out of a lot of the schools. Like when I was still a kid, like we were riding bikes. We were going to the pulled PE out. Now they're bringing it back in for sure. 'cause they're, but there's some schools for sure. Yeah. At least in California. Um, but when I was a kid, like we were just, my mom was like, go, go, go. So my brother and I were super active. So I'm curious if you have either a story of a kid or, I would imagine, correct me if I'm wrong, but a kid coming from that environment to what you provide here. It's a shock. It's a shock to the system. So do you meet a lot of kids with resistance to it or kind of not being present with the experience and how do you navigate that? 'cause that's also really valuable for parents who maybe are listening to this podcast or fathers and want, like me, like I wanna bring my kid up Luca, like with, to remember that he is nature and all the things that you're talking about and how do we, yeah. If there's resistance there, how do you meet that and what advice could you give a father, for example, to help them? Um, with that?

The, one of the things that kids don't always learn as much as they get, as they come into their teen years from their parents, the parents become almost obstacles for them. And that's kind of normal. That's not like a bad thing. They need a community. They need teachers, they need mentors, they need elders, right? And that's one thing we discussed earlier is becoming missing in our society. So while it might offend a father, he might be trying to teach his kids something, and then the kid comes here and goes back and says, oh, Tim taught me this, you know, and I look great. Right? It's because of I'm not his father. They're more willing to listen and learn. So there's that, that dance that goes on. You know, like we, we send the kids home with a code of honor. I ask the parents, hold them to it, right? Hold them to it. That's tough to do. So there's, there's that part. And then the other part in, I don't, I'm not bragging here, but I don't know how else to say it. I have a special skill where I can work with adults and kids both and do, and do well, and have, and it's because I'm a good listener. I really, truly practice. Non judge being non-judgmental. Um, and deep, deep listening. And then I offer advice. Like example, years ago, people used to start coming to me when I started this school and wanting help, you know, and I, I, I'm a self reflector, so I was looking, I, I felt good. It was working, it was helping people. But I was like asking myself, I'm not a therapist. Is this okay? What I'm doing? And I realized it was, and what I learned, what I was doing was what I think a lot of people don't get. And I learned this from nature to be a, I was a good listener. I, and, and you know, when someone's listening or when they're faking it and kids feel it, adults feel it. When I'm truly listening without judgment, I care. My heart's open. That's when people open up. And it was in the listening, which was good for adults and kids, that magic would happen. A lot of whatever we were talking about would just come clear naturally. You didn't even have to give any advice or thoughts about it. And sometimes if I would give advice, I would do that with, this is another important one, like non-judgment is being non-attached, not being attached to, if I give you advice, it's your life. You get to take it or not. It's not a reflection of me. And when you're not attached, people take it more. They take it in more. And so that, that's a huge one. And the other one with kids, especially with, I found this with boys, girls too, but boys particularly is working with them. If I work with 'em, do the dishes with 'em, go out and haul firewood with 'em, that's when a lot of the greatest connection happens in conversations, working together, creating an art piece in nature together. Climbing a tree together. You know, I do really believe in alone time too. That's another story, but. That it's, and a lot of adults today, I notice they don't understand that, you know how to just really be, if I think back to my coaches when there was PE in schools Yeah. They were like, they became like my friends as well as my teacher. And I respected both. I mean, I have to, some of the greatest teachers in my life I can remember back were coaches.

Yeah. 'cause they were also in it with you. Yeah. Yeah. There's something I remember in the last retreat when we ran here. Yeah. You were doing dishes with us. Um, yeah, you were a part of it. You were part of the cooking, you were part of, and one thing that really stood out to me is there were I think a few occasions where you pulled me aside and I remember I was like, holy shit, you pulled me aside and you said something to the effect of, um, like, tell me what you need from me. Do you need me to be more active? Would you like me to be more contributing? Or would you like, this is your show, would you like me to back off a bit? And that was so for me, powerful at the level of humbleness and the level of service that you show up in all of your relationships. 'cause I would've been like, take it to him like, and no, you wanted to really collaborate and hear what I had to say and hear the vision that I had. And how could you. You know, enhance that. And that again, just meant so much to me, coming from someone like you who I would say, whether you're an elder to be or an elder, um, who's built this whole life of experience and who I've got a lot to learn from, who wants to collaborate with me and listen to what I have to say. And so I think in part one of the things that I've seen and felt from you is the willingness to step up and show and do what's needed to be done, even if it's washing the dishes or making fire or whatever. But then also seeing how you could be of service in any capacity. And I remember in one of the talks you gave to the guys that, that over those few days you said men are at their best when they're being of service. And that really stuck with me. 'cause even when you and I were on the phone the other day, you had said a life well lived, a life well lived. And I think that's being of service, a life well lived. You know, I talk to guys all the time who feel lost. I don't know what to do with my life. I don't, I feel lost. I don't have purpose. And so can you share like, what is a life well lived? If a man is wondering like, what am I here to do? I feel lost. I feel aimless, I feel disconnected, but I don't know what to do about it or how to get to on the other side, what's a life well lived to you and how can you, you know, share to help a guy going through that

Wonderful question. You gotta have to stop me. I, I talked for five hours. No, no, you go, go, go, go. This is the Tim, she, let's go. No, but I'll plant some seeds. Um, I, I, I thought about I'm gonna, I want to start, if I write another book my life or, um, I wanted to do it about this subject of life well lived. That came to me because as I've been working with people for 50 years like this, um, I realize one of the biggest things that torture people. Is, why am I here on this earth? What am I supposed to do? How's my life gonna matter? And in fact, I see that almost lost now a lot in our culture. Like, and people aren't even thinking that much. It's like they don't even know what they're gonna do the next day. Hmm. You know, or, or they fall into something like work or something and they do it for countless years and don't even know why. Right. One day they wake up, you hear about men having midlife, crisises. Sure. That kind of thing, right? So it's not supported by mentors and elders at a young age to look at your life, as I like to often say, think of your life as a masterpiece painting. You are the painter. Do you want to give that paint away to just anybody in those brushes? You know, you'd be really judicious about, about it and, and think of your life as something that you create, like a painting. You create it and it's a work in progress. Again, it's really important to practice being non-judgmental and non-attached. 'cause shit happens right on the journey. And the complication for modern people, which I don't think our ancestors had, they had other complications, is we live in a world where it's all about money and cap. You know, capitalism. I'm not saying that's bad. I'm not sure I, any world belief is, works perfectly right? But we grow up thinking we have what we do to make money is who we are, what we, that's all we're about.

That's our identity. And

then we, and we also, we see these filthy rich people and we want, we all want to be rich. Like that equals happiness. I've met countless billionaires there. It does not eco. Having tons of money doesn't mean happiness. Happiness is something that comes from in. It's the connection to nature. It's having love in your life, purpose in your life, making a difference. That's where happiness bonds, right. So, yes. But, but the complication is we do have to make money to live. Right? We gotta have a place to live. We gotta eat food. So it is a real complication. So, and how to, how to create something in your life that you can make money and also live in a good way and make a difference in the world. That's the, that's the top if you can get there, right? Mm-hmm. And being a teacher is one of those things, but, and generally in the world we live in, teachers don't get paid very well. Right. I'm, I'm a private school, I can do a little better, but your average teacher in the school system, it's, they don't even have a living wage and yet they're affecting our children, the most of anybody. Right. It's so, it's, it's our whole societal way of living right now, it's kind of confusing. Mm-hmm. But back to creating a life means being willing to try new things. Experiment, explore, uh, something on that code of honor. I was talking about take risks, being willing to take risks. Courage, another thing that's on that code of honor. Having the courage to try things and knowing that it might not work, but taking your life seriously and creating it is almost a thought that doesn't even come into someone's head anymore. Um, and it, I created my life and I can look back at all these different moments, um, where I did good and I didn't do good, or it was something in the middle or, and, but I, I literally created and I always made sure, and I'm not sure how or where I got this, uh, that I was coming from integrity and that nature was a foundational part and I was doing something good, something better for the world. That's a big part is our lives are bigger than just us. And when we're open to affecting the world, you know, around us and the world itself, uh, in a wonderful way, it all comes back to the individual has a better life. Otherwise, it's just, your life is meaningless. Right? Mm. And I think we're with our big brains and the way we, we are human beings that operate. We need to be a part of something bigger than ourselves. That's why community is important. If it's meaningful, um, I even, you know, I, I even talk to young people about something I see lost a lot today is a lot of young people don't get involved in their country. Or that I, I think about, I've been troubled lately with what's happening with our country and the world, and I, I think about a country like a democracy. Sure, it's gonna have its imperfections like anybody's life, but it doesn't work. Unless you are involved in it and create it. And that's the same with your own, your own life, right? And if you don't stay involved, then it starts to fall apart. I think that's one of the things we're seeing today on a big level. But you bring it right down to the individual. If you don't own your life, if you don't create it, if you're not the one that says yes and no, if you're not the one that is willing to take risk, push the edges, make mistakes, take your wins, and celebrate, then who's gonna do it? Nobody is. And you're gonna end up one day waking up and going, what happened to my life? And, and then the other part of it is, is thinking of your body is a sacred thing and it needs care. So eating well, exercising, treating your body sacred, filling your heart and your soul with ideas, dreams, hopes, um, spirituality, whatever that is for the individual. Nature is one of the great teachers of that. 'cause there's no dogma. You can be spiritual. You can believe in something bigger than yourself. You could be connected to something bigger, but there's no dogma. It's the earth, it's nature. And that's a great way to start with, with that part of your life. So another part of it is having a spiritual side of your life. Having a functional body that can go do things and create things. Having a, you have to feed your brain. You have to, and that's harder than ever in this modern world. It's simpler. When I was a kid now with the internet and all the crap people get fed, it's harder to find what is the truth.

Right?

When I was a kid, it was easier. I, my heart goes out to young people today, you know, they don't even know that. Right. But, so it's all those aspects of your body that you have to consider, need, need, care, need tending, need care taking. Mm-hmm. And you gotta take it serious. And I don't. A lot of people aren't doing that today. Uh, but they're not, it's not that they're bad. We have a culture and we don't, that doesn't support it. And we have, we don't have mentors and elders to help support it. So what are kids supposed to do, right? So taking your body, your life, your brain, all of it, seriously, and creating it, um, and going through all the ups and downs. And when you get your ass kicked, learn to lick your wounds, learn your lessons, and get back up and go at it again.

Right? You know, you just hit on something. And also early that I would love for you to elaborate on. And, you know, so many guys that I talked to are so afraid. We all have fears, right? I've got fears. I work through 'em, they come up. But in terms of taking risk, living at your edge, finding your edge, testing your edge, and in that place, what I'm hearing from you is, and I believe this, you'll get to know more of yourself. Is there an example you can give from your life of a risk that you took? And what did you have to do to meet that risk or to have the courage to go through it? Because so many guys, like I hear more often than not. Yeah, there's definitely guys that are lost out there, don't know what they're here to do, but there's also a ton of guys that do know what they want. They do want a loving relationship with their, with their spouse. They do wanna show up as a more present father. They do wanna live a purposeful life. They're just not sure how. And I think what you're saying about taking risks is a huge part where a man can develop confidence. So what was, I mean, I know you've probably taken a ton of risks, but what's one that sticks out to you that you can share, and what insight can you provide of what you had to do or say to yourself or experience to move through that?

Hey, you asked me that question. It's funny, there probably has been a zillion, and I'm trying to come up with, you know, it's like a, I, it's the thing that keeps popping into my brain is it's not the things like, oh, jumping off a cliff into a lake, or something like in nature, right? That those are risks. Not a big, those are risks, but it's more, it's more like, I think the biggest risk, the hardest thing for me in my life has been, uh, deep relationships, particularly marriage. Mm. Uh, it's the most wonderful, credible thing when it's good in your life. Um, and when it goes bad, it's the worst, most horrible thing, right? Mm-hmm. It's where we put everything into it, right? Relationships and marriage. And I don't, and I don't mean this in any negative way, um, but I remember when, uh, uh, I have a wonderful marriage. Now. I've been married for 27 years. My first marriage, I got married when I was, uh. Being really honest here. You know, when I was in that marine world, Africa, USA and working with the s and the chimps and she was a veterinary technician and we worked together and we almost lost our lives every day and saved each other. You know, it was deep for six years and then I remember I thought it was gonna be for the rest of my life. 'cause I'm an all in person. That's something, another thing I just, it just popped in my brain is whatever you do, if it's meaningful, you gotta be all in a hundred percent in committed it. It is like commitment's. The huge word that, that goes on the code too, of honor. It's like when you're fully committed, and I mean fully committed, the, it's almost like spirit or whatever word you want to give, it helps you. You're, you're not alone, but until you're fully committed, it doesn't happen very well. If that makes any sense. Yeah. And it's like climbing the mountain, not Shasta, that last thousand feet. It's, it's the worst thousand feet you'll ever climb. It's called Ery Hill. And you, you don't even know how your legs can move and you can't breathe at 14,000 feet. But the commitment, you feel like a spirit or something pushing you to the top and you get there, you know? So I am, you have to be all in with whatever you're doing. And with marriage, that's one of the places I learned that I would jump all in and it was my life. Right? And then, so one day, my first wife, uh, I found out she was having, uh, an affair with a veterinarian. She was working for who? And I knew them both. And I bring this up to be, 'cause I know a lot of guys have gone through this.

Yeah.

Is I, I found out, I saw, I found a bunch of letters he'd written to her. So I sat there for weeks holding onto this, torturing myself. And I thought about. I, I was all in. I thought we were gonna be together till I was dead, you know, 80, 90, a hundred years old, and all of a sudden my life was over. I felt like it was over. And I went into a depression, and I'm not a person who gets depressed. And I went into a six month depression where I didn't know how I was gonna get out of it. And I remember I went and confronted him and I was, I was even gonna kill him. I thought about it, I actually planned it out, didn't do it. He's alive. And, but I, I was serious. I was, went through all these emotions and, um, they, they've been married now. He, she married him and they've had kids. They were meant to be together. Now I, after six months, I went through it. Um, I woke up one day and I was okay. And I remember something that really helped me through that too, is I, there was a couple of people who, and I realized I, my sister passed away too. One at 42 in my arm, she died. And when you have these big wounds. Like the loss of a marriage or the loss of someone you love, like my sister. You the person, the individual needs, you need to talk about it and there's no fixing it. You and what, again, I go back to what we were talking about earlier, listening. There's a couple of people in my life in both those times that just sat there and let me talk. And literally I would tell the same story over probably a hundred times. They must have been in their back of their head going, just shut up. But no, they were present for me and that gave me the healing I need. And in both times, one day I woke up and I was okay. I was just okay. Like I ran it through my system and moved on in my life, but I never quit on myself. I think a lot of people, when they go through difficult times or challenges, at some point they give up on themselves and I always believed in that masterpiece, creating my life. And I believed in myself and not from an ego out of control point of view. Just I, you have to love yourself to go through life. And I do like myself. I always did. And so I made sure when I got out of it, I got back on you. They say, you get bucked off a horse, the only way you're ever gonna ride it again, you gotta get back on on it. Or the horse is never gonna let you on. And I did. I got back on the horse and kept creating life. And through that difficulty, I'll wrap up with this part. No, no. That difficulty is, uh, I never stopped functioning. I kept working, I kept stayed engaged in life. That was a real key too, I think.

I think you just nailed it. Yeah. Yeah. I trusted in

something bigger.

That's, and you've shared, shared something like that a few times in the podcast and I think that's what. You know what, another thing that sticks out, I'd imagine this is connecting. I'd love to hear more about it, but when you said earlier, like in part it's about like nature is about receiving to receive, to be open, to receive, to be open to trusting. You and I were talking about this before the podcast, like, everything's gonna be okay. Um, is there any insight you can provide, uh, around how does one practice receiving in nature? Like what, what are some, you know, think about like the modern guy again working, let's just say a nine to five or, you know, living in a city, et cetera. How does one go out and practice being open and receiving? Is there one, two, or three steps or actions that you can share for someone to step into more of that?

I think one of the most important things is it has to be personal. And so I would say one thing is for any guys that are listening or anybody who's listening. Um, one of the things I write about in that book I wrote, the earth caretaker way is create a front and backyard nature habitat. Mm-hmm. You want it to be personal. Look. So if, if you plant trees, if you plant flowers, if you create a butterfly garden, if you feed birds and you watch them and you spend time with 'em and enjoy that, they're enjoying. If you put out a bird bath and enjoy that, they're enjoying it. That becomes personal and that's where that deep listening and connection comes from. And it's personal. The other way is if you, if you're lucky enough to live somewhere where you can go out in the woods, find trees, trees are the, one of the great, uh, beings that kind of bridge the two worlds together, the human world and the nature world. Trees are those one of those extraordinary beings that can do that. Again, I get teared up thinking about it 'cause trees, I've had so many trees in my life, they're as important to me as anything else, including people I've been in in my life. So find trees that speak to you and sit with them and be with them. And it's, it's classic meditation skills. Learn, learn to clear your mind as much as you can from all the gibberish and be as present as you can with a tree or with any natural environment. Water, mountains, anything is fine, but trees are so personal. Clear your mind. Be as present as possible. And then another step to take it even further is we call this rocking. I think this word came from a famous book, um, which I can't remember the name now. Um, but rocking is when you literally become another being and see and experience the world from that being's point of view. So it's the willingness to be the tree. Like a shifting of sort. Yeah. Kind of. It could be that it's a willingness to be the tree and see the world from that point of view that opens the heart and connects whether, how successful you are or not with it. But it's, it's a matic skill. Yeah. That it's for anyone. For everyone. And you can, you can even do it with people. I mean, empathy is one of the great gifts human beings have the ability to feel what another being feels, walk in another being's shoes. Right. The famous statement. And so that's a huge one. And then this is the part, this is back to your question, connecting with Nature Deeply is we're in a world where everything's so boom, boom, boom, quick. It doesn't work that way with nature. You've gotta be willing to go for a walk and just, you don't have to constantly be on your phone, put the damn thing away. You gotta be willing to go out and sit for two or three or four hours and just be without doing. It's a famous statement, would you rather be a human being being or a human being doing? I'd rather be a human being, being so, and this again, it's hard in this modern culture 'cause we're not used to that. If you've been raised with meditation in your life, the idea of it that helps. Yeah. But again, which

nearly nobody has in the, we, like very few,

very few westerners even know what meditation is.

Sure.

Yeah. And I don't mean that as a put down. Sure. It's um, so you have, in other words, and you have to just put your time into nature. Last thing I can think of is nature teaches through experience. Um, it's not at all even close to being all intellectual. Hmm. So you've gotta just be there. And if you go out in the woods in, or nature of your yard or wherever nature is, um, open yourself up to being as present as possible, letting it in that that's what you have to do. And. It's putting the time in over and over and over, repeating it and trusting. And I guess what I was gonna say is be a student, be, you know, like when, if you go into, if you go to school and a teacher's there, you're a student. When you go out in nature, be a student, be willing, in other words, be willing to be taught. You know, so much of that teaching is not like you and me talking, it's subliminal from experience and then it just shows up in your life. Like our Native American ancestors called it as your medicine. Hmm. One example I can give you is I'm a nature photographer. I've been doing that since I was phenomenal

nature photographer. Like we can, I dunno if we can put some pictures of some of your stuff. It's like, that's the big one. It's absolutely gorgeous.

But all of those pictures that I've taken are, to me, sacred moments in nature. So when I go. I'm spending time with the experience like a sunset for example. I'll go before and watch the light change and notice all the colors, the shapes, and, and then I'll notice the actual sunset. And then often, like if I'm watching a sunset, if there's people there, like maybe on the coast, if all leave when the sunsets the best is the hour after, that's when the light changes to dark and it's so beautiful. So all of that time I'm soaking that up. And so when you get me like here or the students get me when they come to the school, uh, the book, you know I wrote the book, right? Blah blah. So that's all of those sunsets, all of those photographs, everything I took. And that's just photographs. They're getting all those too. They are me. So that's show, right, you and me right here. You're getting every photograph I ever took, if that makes sense. 'cause it lives in me and that's my medicine. Right. So what people have to understand, if you live a, a life of hatred, negativity, anger, and those are all real feelings that we all have. But if they're, if they're your main line of living, then that's how you show up in the world. That's your medicine. And you can counter it by letting nature be a healer by just being what it is.

Yeah. There's a, there's a specific practice that you mentioned in the earth caretaker way, and part of what I'm hearing is time under tension. Like enough time, like not rushing and being out there enough to especially just let some of, like, it takes time. Like even coming up here, I got a busy work week. My wife and I were traveling on work and so it's taken me, I've only been here for less than 24 hours in Shasta, but it's taking my, my body and everything time to just shed some of the world. That I'm coming from and, and really ground down at a deeper level. But that time under tension, that time is a big thing that comes up. And in the book you talk about a sit spot and as a tool or a practice. And one of the last retreats when we were here, we did, I think it was like a five or a six hour sit, you know, until midnight or what, uh, as like a mini, mini vision quest. And it was, for me, it was super powerful. It was actually, some of the guys said it was one of the most challenging things that they did on the whole retreat, but you talked about a sit spot. So can you explain how that fits in and if someone wanted to create that, uh, what could that look like for them?

Sure. I, it's a hugely important thing, and it could be a lot of different ways to do it. Mm-hmm. Um, one way is I often teach in the school is if you, wherever you live, either, either if you can have a woods that are safe, that nobody's gonna mess with it, or in a yard, especially if you're. Creating an earth caretaker garden in a yard, create a spot that maybe has some water there, maybe has, where birds can come in a tree that you really love near that it's a beautiful, a place that calls to you that when you look at it, you just know it's home. You know, you gotta be there. Mm. And that's, again, it could be intellectual, but it's more of a feeling like you, you feel it, you just know. And then you create the spot, maybe put a chair there, or you sit on a stump or a rock, and then maybe you build a uh, um, altar, maybe like a nature art piece that is an example of your love of nature. It's a reflection of your love of nature. So you make it beautiful outta the rocks you find there, and the leaves and the flowers, and it's a place you go to over and over and each time. You say hi to the plants. You say hi to the tree, watch the spiders. You know, watch the ants. Make it a sacred place. You don't kill anything, even a mosquito. If they fly in, that's sacred. Get to know 'em. Spend time with them. Often the greatest teachers, which we ignore so much, are the insects. They come into our space, share the world with us. We either want to kill 'em or get rid of 'em. They're, they're often the most amazing beings. We just completely ignore 'em. You know, we all want the dolphins and the bears and the whales to come and join us. Insects are saying, here I am. So, and it's going back over and over. Each time you go deeper into that spot that they, it becomes sacred space. And literally, uh, sometimes we, we used to, we used to do this, um, we'd have people in our nature awareness class do a sit spot, and they'd do it two days in a row for half a day. And then we would come, we would come, we come to their spot, me and another teacher. We ask them to tell us the story of the spot and you can't believe some of the stories. Wow. They've witnessed, you know, like with the insects and things like that, or make belief stuff magical things. And then, and we're learning as they're telling us like how well they observed it. And then I give them an assignment to go off and we add tracks to their site. We make changes, we add things to it, and then we have them go back. We get, we, if we took rocks and things, we put 'em in a bag, give it to 'em, and later in the afternoon they go back to try to see all the changes. And then we go back and see what they discovered. And one of the things I, I discovered through that is if we mess with it too much, people get angry. They wanna protect their spot and become sacred to them. Earth sacred. The human race needs so badly to do that now for our, our planet, right? But that's the planet right there, your sit spot. So that's an, that was an incredible teaching, uh, for me. And the other thing is you can have temporary sit spots. It's important, it's great to hike and explore, but it's wonderful to sit and as you sit in the woods somewhere in nature, calm your being down little meditation so you're not putting out this intense energy like, you know, and all of a sudden you notice that the na earth comes to you. The butterflies show up, the birds come to check you out. The raccoon comes and looks. The world comes to you. Human beings, we tend to be very loud, uh, busy, even with our bodies and we're not talking. We're make a lot of noise when we eliminate that and we stop. Then nature comes back and it becomes, moments happen where you truly feel this is your ultimate dream. That you are one with the earth, not separate. And so many of human beings today, whether we admit it or not, we don't even know it intellectually. We don't feel connected to the earth. We feel separate. Mm. And when you finally reclaim what I call your birthright to be a child of the earth and you feel that deep heart, heart is huge connection, that is one of those life changing, defining moments. But then you have to keep doing it right? You gotta keep going to nature, keep going to nature. And that's why I say as much as you can also create earth caretaker gardens, it helps for people in suburbia and cities and.

Is that right there? Reminding people that they're not separate from nature. They are nature. Is that the core or a core message in the book, or like, what would you say, whether it's the book or your life, as we, you know, bring today's show to a close, what would you say is the core message that you are living now and moving forward and have lived to get out there?

The, the earth caretaker way? The book, it's, it's about just what I said. It's about having understanding. I, I, I just take it really back to, I think it was in 1968. I think I write about it in the book somewhere. Um, it was such a project to write a book. I can't even remember after what I wrote. Um, three men, probably 20 years old. Think about 20 year olds today in a capsule. Take off from Cape Canaveral and fly to the far side of the moon. That alone. Talk about taking risks.

Mm.

I mean, I could rock those three guys and what amazing three men they were, and they get to the far side of the moon and the moon lights up from the sun and it's dead. It's beautiful, but it's dead. And often the distance, they see the earth rise up. It's the first time human beings really ever saw that from the outside our earth. And what they knew immediately, and these were scientists, these guys, they weren't necessarily nature freaks. They knew it was a living being. It was blue, it was white, it was full of life. They knew it in their hearts. You can do readings from what they've talked about. I, I think they were all like 93, 2 or three years ago, they were on the cover of Time Magazine. And I thought about it 'cause their picture was there and they were holding up a picture of the capsule and, and when they came back, that was they, when they came back, everything changed. We start, earth Day started, the world started to celebrate the earth. More environmental groups came about more. They did more work. It was his chain reaction. And it was, it's a huge, huge part of what I think that book is about is understanding on every level that the earth is a living. Being that we are living beings on it, that we belong is a huge one. We all often too, in this modern world, as we look at the destruction the human race has done to the earth and it's, it's been serious and continuing, we often beat ourselves up in some way. We don't think we're part of it, we're separate from it. We are a part of it. We are a part of it. And as we own and claim that we will treat it better. I mean, you can look at individuals that hurt their own bodies, right? Eventually with alcohol or something like that, or drugs. And eventually you learn that your body's sacred. You clean that up and you take care of it. That's what we're, we're in that process. Now, human beings, and I, I, I remember as a kid, I'd have a bunch of friends in, I had really dear friends in high school and we loved the earth. We grew up in the, in that the 6 68 to 72 was our high school years. It was the height of that time of celebrating the earth. We were all nature freaks. And, and I remember we used to have this weird game we'd play where we'd imagine if we had a button, uh, if we could push it to get rid of all humanity, would we do it? Think about that kids and. I wanted to push that button. Some of my buddies would do it quickly. I could never do it. And I didn't know why, because humans were destroying what we loved. And of course we were humans too. We were doing, we were driving cars and everything too. Right, right. But, so I couldn't push that button. And now I know why, because we are, I, I truly believe we're supposed to be here. We are gifts to this planet and we're like 10-year-old kids let loose in a candy store, right. With Noah, we're learning. We're in that growth. And, and as dark and difficult as things are right now, I wanna say this to the listeners. Um, I have hope, I'm a person of hope. One of my heroes just died three days ago. Jane Goodall, I dunno if you've even heard of her. Mm-hmm. Jane Goodall, uh, when I was. Going back to my beginnings in the early seventies, working at Marine World Africa, USA with elephants and chimps. She started, uh, she left England and went to Africa, worked for a guy named leaky, a scientist, and studied chimpanzees. And she lived with him. She moved in and lived with him and see, this is you, you don't know Jane Goodall this, no, this is someone, everybody should know. It's their household name. It makes me sad and it's not a put down, don't, don't get it wrong. But she spent, she died at 91. She was still doing 300 talks a year, died in her sleep peacefully, and she fought for the earth her entire life. Started out, she moved in with wild chimps and became friends with him. I remember I met her in my early years at Marine World. She had a bunch of chimpanzees at Stanford University and she wanted to meet trained chimps. So we met and visited and spent a lot of time together. So when she died the other day, I cried 'cause one of the true heroes of the world, one of the true examples of an amazing human being. And she's being forgotten, right? And so I go back to, uh, our life, the earth caretaker way. It, it's about developing that deep, deep relationship with the earth and then putting it into action, being involved with the earth, doing good for the Earth. And hence that comes back to doing good for ourselves and we all win. And to wrap up, is it doable? Yes. Uh, the, the problems our earth faces going back to me having hope, I think actually as challenging as technology can be, it's part of the solution for the future. I think it's technology is like the human being or anything else. It can have a light or a dark side, right? Technology can be magnificent, but more than anything, it's the masses of the human being coming together for the earth. I kind of look at like World War ii, it was one of the darkest times in the semi modern world. Um, the world was take being taken over by crazies, and the world came together and stopped it in five years. We need that kind of coming together where all countries, all people come together in the earth caretaker way for a higher purpose. And I think we're just right on the edge of that. We're just in so much of our own crap now, but that can go away quickly. So I, I have hope, and if I'm wrong and we just keep screwing it all up, then the truth is, if I just come from straight truth, the Earth's. Oust does, and she'll do it all over again. I, that's just, it's just a reality. Uh, there's this incredible book written called The, the Sixth Extinction, and I guess science has been able to prove that five times in history of terrestrial life on earth before humans, the world lost 80 to 90% of what was living here. The last one was the dinosaurs when a, uh, asteroid hit in the Gulf of Mexico and dark in the skies for two years and 80% of life ended. And look what the earth came back to this. So the woman who wrote the book, the Sixth Extinction, says, the sixth extinction, this hit me, man, is the human race. Mm. We are the asteroid that killed the dinosaurs. But the difference is, if. The asteroid couldn't stop. We can stop. We can change it. We have the ability. The question is what will do it? We don't know yet, but I'm hoping that book starts a movement and helps. I'm hoping that book starts a movement and helps and, and I'm one person, there's zillions of people. We also get lost in the news and we don't realize there's Jane Goodall's out there everywhere today. Right? There are people everywhere doing good. They just, they're not, they don't make the, they're not famous. They're not in the front of us all the time. Right.

Well, I mean, in today's entire conversation, like, I feel you, like you're sitting right here, but the conviction in your voice, the emotions that come up when these, these matters that are really true to your heart, you let 'em flow like it. It's something that's getting transmitted to me, and I think that's one of the things. That I really am taken away from today's conversation. It's like, you know, commitment is absolutely paramount and also how we live and we don't really realize, or maybe I don't realize as much as I could, just living this philosophy to the best of my ability out in my own way, gets transmitted to others. Like, just like you, just being you is one of the major reasons why I keep coming back up here. It's who you are, it's who, how you live. It's the, again, the conviction in your voice. The, the, the fierceness to protecting the earth like that is something, you know, having grown up in suburban America, like that's not something I grew up with. That's something I'm growing into. And so to be around you and to bring the men here so that they can, even if you said nothing, like there would be a ton of teaching. So like truly thank you for living this way and in many regards, showing what's possible and also giving like the young folks of today, like in a few years, my son, the ability to come into this. Like, there is no greater gift than I could think. Like no greater gift that as a father I wanna pass on to my son. I want him to be loved. I want him to have a, you know, to have a, you know, a riskful, but also safe life. And I want him to experience life and I want him to feel connected to nature. So, you know, thank you for being a teacher to me and teacher to so many. I appreciate you very much. So thank you.

Thank you for that.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. I'm gonna keep going.

Let's go, let's go.

Yeah. Part of this elder thing is how long can I go? And Jane Goodall 91. She never stopped. I'm not stopped. Hell yeah. Hell yeah.

Well, Tim, thank you again. Appreciate you. And then, uh, on behalf of the listeners, we appreciate you. Thank you. Oh, I hope.