So we're so very excited to start another interview episode that we have here. I'm Haleigh. And I'm Johnny. And this is our new friend, Hannah. And this is Johnny. Johnny Haleigh. Hannah. Hannah Day Fun. So Hannah Kelly, she is the producer and concept lead for a game that is currently in the works called Remembering and your. I don't know what you said, not necessarily company, but your gaming process group is the wayward. So tell us a little bit about the project that you're working on and how you came to be, I guess I would say we came to be off of a. post on LinkedIn from Sterling Reams, who is a very like active person in the gaming industry, much more experienced than any of us are. And he was talking about juniors and how, we really need to be hiring more and not having, the three to five years of experience on entry level jobs. Cause that makes no sense. And a whole bunch of people in the comments were discussing it. And Chad and a couple of other people were like, we should just make our own studio. And they were like, yeah. We should do that. And so they ended up, yeah, they ended up making a discord and I was on the post and I was like, I would love to participate. And they were like, yeah, come on in. And we started, they had already started discussing like an idea and the general basis for the game from the beginning was horror. And okay. Originally, we were treating it as like a game jam, which is a thing that a lot of people in the game industry do where they like get together and they have a timeline and they make a project in a very short amount of time for portfolio and just for fun to gain experience. Loss of that sort of thing. I think they're really fun. So we treated it like that in the beginning and then we were like obviously we've gathered a bunch of people we could, monetize this at some point. But remembering is the 1st game that we have worked on. It's gone from. The, in the beginning, we had this kind of like linear idea and then we turned it into a hide and find situation. There is a bit of a mystery element to it, so I don't want to say too much about the story, but it is based around a murder and the 90s and business nonsense in New York, basically. I like it already. That sounds fun. I, so do you, this is something that is, would you say like a side project or indie project? Cause you guys, this is not necessarily your job at this point, but if you could monetize things like that how does that work when you're creating an indie game? Do you just have to like, put it out through the app store somehow? Like, how do you go about? Publishing your own game kind of, I think most of the time, because to be honest with you, I studied concept design and mostly focused on animation. So I have never really been on a game project in regards to actually releasing it. I have a lot of friends who were in that situation, but concept design is in both animation and game. So I originally joined the project just to be a concept artist. And then they were like, Hey we love your work. You should be the lead concept artist. Cause we had a lead and they dropped out and I was like, okay, sure. And then I recognized one of the writers recognized Hey, we need a producer. Cause we literally don't have one. And everyone was like, you should do it. And I was like, okay, so just gave me. Exactly! Within a week I had shot to the top of the ladder of the project and I was like, I don't know what's happening, but okay, I'm doing it. But I think most of the time people put it out on Steam first. Steam is the platform where a lot of indie stuff goes. I don't know if they have to be monetized or not. I don't think they have to. So I think most of the time they go there and then If people like them, you could then they'd start like putting like a dollar or 5 on the game to buy it and then eventually it just like snowballs like among us like that started like that and it just went. Crazy. Okay. Very cool. I do love seeing that, a boss lady getting to the top of the project in the gaming world. I'm excited about it. So when you say that you are concept lead, can you explain a little bit about. What does that mean that you do for the game like so you have story, but you have someone who's a writer for the story, like how do you, I guess the thing that I don't know is like what are the different roles that you all have with the game, again, like I'm someone who plays games, but I don't necessarily know okay who's doing what, and how like I imagine it's a pretty big team of people. Yes, there's a lot of roles that you need some of which I didn't even know about before I joined the project. I was like, oh, we need a person for that. Okay, cool. But concept design specifically is in the pre production phase. It's in the beginning when you're starting everything. So you have the writing team. They write the synopsis and kind of everything that you want. And then the concept artists. Yeah. Go to town on that. So you decide what type of setting you want. You decide what like backgrounds and environments you need drawn and then you decide what characters you have a basic description and the concept artists are the ones who we first start with mood boards and like color schemes to get the feel and then everybody starts sketching out. The environment and the character specifically, usually people are assigned 1 particular thing. So we had someone who was designed the starting area, which is a bedroom. And then we had someone who came in and fleshed out what the entire rest of the game map looked like. And then we had 2 people who went in and started designing each room. And then we had people 1 person who designed the main character 1 person who designed the. Villain, per se they have 2 versions, they designed both of the versions, and as the lead, I'm the one who is giving all of the instruction in regards to what the writing team wants, and what they need to do, so I'm the one who's just you need to do the bedroom, the kitchen, the dining room. Go do it. And then if they have any questions, they need references, images, communicate between everybody to make sure that everything feels good. Everybody likes what everything looks like and everything. I suppose you're making sure everything fits together, right? Yes. Everything's keeping to the theme that you're trying to go for. Exactly. And then the stylistically, because we are doing a we are doing a 3d modeled first person situation. We don't really have to worry about the stylistic components because the 3d modelers take them and then they make them into models, which all have the same vibe because we're doing more of a. semi realistic style. So we didn't really have to worry too much about the concept artist style versus the actual style things turn out as. But then the modelers, once they're done, they give it to the riggers. They make grids so that everything can move fluidly. Then they give it to the animators. The animators make the movement happen. The programmers make everything Work in the system, then you have the UI UX people who make the interface. So everything that you're seeing on screen, like a health bar or like a flashlight, everything that you can click on, they're the ones doing all that. There's a lot of different roles. I was gonna say, this is really very involved. I don't think I knew how. It is a bit like you think of, an animated movie, for example, that, you have huge teams of people who are doing different roles and different tasks, and you have to bring it all together. And it sounds like you're mostly the one in charge of bringing all the pieces together. Pretty much, yeah. You, lucky you. Yeah, look at me. Yay! In, in the industry in general, in, this gaming industry, these kind of projects, this is something that you're doing on the side, so the people you're working with, and yourself for example, are you, is this a, passion project and you guys are doing day jobs as do you do programming? What's the thing that you do when you're not doing this project? Yes, absolutely. This is a side passion project. We don't have any money. Not yet. No, but we'll help you. Yeah we'll definitely try to help you manifest that the best we can. Yeah, I'm a musician so I can relate. Yes, I forgot to mention we have audio people. They gotta make all the sounds, all the music, all that. It's a whole thing. Oh my goodness. But we have an amazing guy who did like all of them at once and the sounds are great. But yeah, no that's why it's so hard to keep people because they pop in and then they're like, oh, I got a full time job. I don't have time anymore. And then they leave and Everybody's, that's why it's taken us so long because it actually took us so long to do the concepts for the game map because we had. Three people who came in, said they were going to do it, dropped out, and then finally the last guy stuck, but it took us so long to get that design that the modelers weren't able to start until six months into this with the whole environment, and it's just taking them a long time to flesh out the whole thing, because that just takes, that takes a lot of time. But yes, I have a full time job, and I was there today and it was hard and it was hard. It was, I'm tired. We appreciate you joining us. We do the nine to five thing too. And that's something that we've talked about a little bit, the idea of transitioning out of nine to five, I guess I would say. So when you're looking at trying to monetize a thing like, like this I don't know. I don't want to say that it's a do you have to hope that it just goes really big or is this something that you would maybe continue to work with this group of people to make other games and expand, what's what's the stepladder process a little bit for how that works? I think it's like exactly what you said you put it out there, you hope that it goes big enough for you to get money from it, and to pay everybody who worked on it, and that sort of a thing, and once you're done, it's should Yeah. Can we do more? Do we have the capacity for it? We definitely discussed it in the beginning and that was the goal initially was this is going to be three months. This is our introductory kind of basic game that we're doing to get everybody doing stuff because the whole point was by juniors for juniors to have people come in and get the experience they need to put on their resume so that they have the 3 to 5 years or whatever that people write that you need. And we always had three years of experience. If you can't get one. Exactly. What are we doing? But yeah, so it's we were always like, yeah, we'll do that. And then it's been a year now. So I don't know if we're going to continue making games after it's up to the group. If everybody wants to, I say we would definitely continue making them. We have a lot of people who are in like the community part of the discord who have expressed interest. And we just have to be like, we don't have room for you right now. Maybe next, next game. And then this has taken so long. It's Is anybody still interested? So I think it's just we have to gauge that at the end of that. If we have enough people to want to do another 1. Yeah, how do you, I was going to ask you to because you said, you have a lot of people quit. They get a full time job and then they'll quit mid project or whatever. How do you juggle that? Because do you just wipe it clean and start over? Or do you have somebody build on what somebody else has built? Like, how do you get around create creative. You know what I mean? Because everyone has a different avenue they'll take with it. Or is it all just up to you? Yeah, is it, is everything on you? At the end of the day, you're in charge of it. I'm just, it's both. It's both. It is on me. And obviously we have leads in each team. In regards to People quitting and then not completing work or something, then if you, if we can't find a replacement that it would be up to whoever is the leader of the team to attempt to pull that weight in regards to with concept, because we kept having people dropping, it really depends on, like, how much they did and if we liked it or not, if they had a finished product we had some people who came in and they just modeled like a flashlight and that was like, all they did, but they finished it. We kept it, but with the game app in particular, the first person, he did not understand my vision. I explained it to him multiple times. He thought he knew better than me. I was like, you don't understand what I am talking about right now. And of course, like I'm a character concept artist. I'm not an environment person. So I needed someone to take. The vision and do it, which is exactly what concept artists are supposed to do. And I am a concept artist. I was like, I understand, but you're not doing what I want. And then the second guy came on and he didn't do anything. He just came on and then. Left and I was like, okay, I guess he doesn't exist anymore. And then the third guy came on and I explained everything to him and he was like, all right, I've got this. And he did, he had it and it was great. Yeah. Just a roll of the dice to see if you guys can find, get on the same page creative, creatively. Pretty much. Yeah, I can see a lot of pushback on that, especially when you throw the word artist in, that usually, that usually puts people There's a little bit of drama. Yeah. We're all artists in our own way. We get a little I'm a writer and an artist too. And so it's we get sensitive about our creative outputs sometimes, yeah. Yeah. People definitely do. And it's like. It's not you. I explained this and I explained why this won't work. And I just need you to work with me a little bit on maybe the in between. Like when I was in art school, I was that kid who was like, I like what I did, even though the professor was just like you should maybe not do it that way. And I was like, but I like it. So I'm keeping it. So I am that sassy person who's I understand where you are. It doesn't work because of this, that, and the other thing. Okay. You got to get on the same page. But when you're working on a project like that, it's John, you're a musician. It's if you're in a band, right? Like you all have to agree on what flavor you're going for, right? That's somewhat the problem with the band is if you don't assign a lead like role, cause you can't really assign a lead role if three people started it, so it's it's a lot of let's just throw these suggestions up in the air and see what we like kind of thing. You know what I mean? And. A lot of the good ones go out the door with the bad, but you have to appease three people instead of one. So it's I don't know, you can't say no to a lot of things and you very rarely hear yes. It's one of those situations. So is it as the concept lead for you, then do you like, do you get to decide all like all these things or do you stick mostly to the story that was written by your writers? What's Because you have the vision that you're helping to explain, but you're more kind of facilitating the people who are doing all those other roles, you're not designing it all yourself. Yes. Typically, that is how it goes. I was one of the writers, actually, that's what they put me at first. So I understood both. Views very well, because they had explained it to me thoroughly. I'd help come up with stuff. And actually the reason why things got shifted in the beginning, because originally we had the idea to have you're walking down a long hallway and you're going to experience certain things in this hallway, and you're going to run into the thing at the end and fight it and then move on to the next level. And when we had a meeting with the programmers and like the 3d people they actually were like no like we refuse to do fights like that's too complicated we're not going to have any battle schematics at all so you gotta change that around a little bit and then and then one of the guys was like oh hallway is so boring we should have it be laid out more like this and he like Prudely sketch something up and everybody agreed okay, if we're not going to have a battle, then, yeah, the hallway idea maybe doesn't work. So we decided on a hide and find game. And that is exactly what we were struggling with in the concept department, because the. They kept thinking New York apartment, very small. And I was like, no, we're going to do a hide and find game. We cannot have it all be an open floor situation because the creature's going to find you literally no matter where you are, you can't hide from it. So what like, and we were like, guys Do we have heights? Are we going to be able to hide under things and hide in things? Or are we just making sure we're not being seen? We can't have an open floor studio apartment that's this little tiny rectangle. It's got to be a little bit more than that. I'm not asking you to make a mansion. I'm just asking you to break it up a little bit. And that's what they were struggling with was no, but it's New York. And I was like, I don't care if it's New York. It's not New York. You need space to do the things. So it really is a work in progress, or kind of work things out as you go. Is, I guess my question would be then, is this something that is normal to the process of the creation of a game? So I understand that this is more of an indie project, a passion project for you guys, but in the industry, as games are being developed, is that kind of a common thing for things to be more fluid like that, that you start with a story, but that you have to, based on What every role is or what you can do, you have to, every project has an evolution, right? Nothing is yes, exactly the same when you start as when you get into it. Yeah, no I'd say this is pretty much how every creative team starts is you just. Being things on a piece of paper and throwing them at the wall and seeing what sticks and what people want to do and what people feel. If you've watched like any behind the scenes with Disney films and stuff, sometimes they'll be like, yeah, we had this whole thing and then we scrapped it because everyone was like, no, and we changed the idea completely, even though we kept the same idea of the story. But like with Elsa, like Elsa was originally a villain. She was like, such a, had such a crazy design. It was like, so cool. And then was like, no, we want to do sisterly love. Nevermind, because these guys over here wrote a song that's so beautiful. We can't do the villain story anymore. We're basing this off of this now. Yeah, that's hilarious. It definitely goes all over the place. That's actually really interesting. See, I think I would enjoy seeing Elsa as a villain and how that would like that alternate universe. What would that look like? Kind of thing. You should look up her designs. They're like, the concept art is so cool. That's really interesting. That's. It's a, one of the things that I would not think about, not just for games, but for animated movies and things like that, that a project that the finished product that I see obviously watching frozen, like I had no idea that's where it started. Oh, no, the whole entertainment industry is just a bunch of people in a room going, What are we doing? I don't know. I like this. I like this instead. Let's do that. Oh yeah. Okay. Yeah, let's do it that so many things like I'll give you another fun fact like Flynn Rider was designed because they had a hot man meeting where they brought every female employee into the room and was like, what is your ideal man? And they all wrote down stuff and they formed what he looked like based off of that. I love that. That's fantastic. I that's what I would love is to just be an ideas person in a room throwing things out. Cause I think that's like the only thing I would be good at. Like I can, I concept is that's what concept is. That's why I love being a concept artist. I'd see now I need to talk to you about that then, because I'm like, I can come up with ideas. I got short story. I like ideas are my thing. I don't have the capacity to do coding or animation necessarily or any of that stuff. But I can write a story and I can come up with ideas. That's really so what other are there other projects like this that you have worked on or other maybe games or what would I say products that you have had a hand in that you've also done? Yes I've gone around a little bit here and there. I did a, intern a creative internship, which pretty much was just like graphic design. They called me creative, but I was like, I'm just doing graphic design guys. But where it was like a live action TV show. Actually, it was like a rom com situation and I was doing like, a lot of their. Their graphics and I did a UI sort of thing where I did the phone screen, because it was like a dating app and then I did a. I can't say too much about this one, but I can say what they released to the public, which was, it was Avatar The Last Airbender 3, basically, but it wasn't what they ended up going with, because this was before Avatar Studios became a thing. So it was someone who was trying to come up with the third version of it, and they were going to pitch it to Nickelodeon, so we had all gathered to make the pitch deck, basically, and that was one of those situations. Where the guy at the top, who was the creative visionary Everything completely fell through because he could not give in to what people were saying, basically. He was like, it's my way or the highway. And we were like, some of these ideas don't work for very specific reasons. And then it became like Oh, I don't like what you're doing. And I was the lead concept artist on that one too. And he, I got kicked off basically with pretty much no explanation. Cause the explanation they gave was like ridiculous. I don't believe that for a second. And I think it was literally because I was disagreeing with him and I was like, okay, so is this a situation like work or is this sort of freelance is in the way that work comes along for you, like where you're not. You're not with a company, for example, and you're just always working on different game projects. Are you having to go out and look for work? The, all the projects that I have worked on in that capacity have all been the same as this one, where they are not paid. They are free. It's, if you're giving your time or whatever, the internship in particular was supposed to be for college. people for like college credit and they didn't put that on like the description. So I applied and they were like, you're super overqualified, but if you want it, you can have it. And I was like, yeah, I need experience because the entry level jobs say I need it. I didn't get to do any. Thing during school, because COVID happened in my junior year of college. So I just completely got axed from the world and have the opportunity, which no one's taking into account at all. So it's hard. Yeah. That's something that I guess I wouldn't have. They talk about the pandemic having affected elementary school kids and high school kids, but if you're in college and you were trying to get internships and get yourself into the industry that you went to school for, yeah, that's a big hindrance when nobody's got work going because everybody's at home. It was awful because my friend was a year. Older, so she graduated right when the pandemic started, so she couldn't find anything for a year. And then my entire senior year, we were still online and I was suffering because one of the big things about art college is that you're all together. You're all discussing things and showing each other your work and collaborating and stuff. I didn't have any of that. I just had this on a screen. And then you got used to it. Yeah, exactly. And it was really hard. For a game then, if you're all separate and you said like even your team, you have people who are like international, you're, you guys are all over the world. How do you put the game together, in, in one place? Are you able to do you have some kind of shared server space where you're putting all the pieces together that, that must be a challenge in and of itself that you're not like sharing a computer network for a company, for example. It is, but it isn't discord is very effective for the discussion part of that. And then we have a Google drive where we put everything and we haven't completely put it together yet. But basically there is a thing called GitHub and it depends on what. You're using, but we're using unity. And basically you have a space that everybody can join. And that whole space is where the entire like map is built. Okay. That's very cool. This is so fascinating to me because I just don't know, I don't know anything about how video games are put together. So just the, I, I don't know why I wouldn't expect it to be just like, again, an animated movie where you have a huge team of people. But when you think of it in terms of having to do it from. This sort of zoom call discord in the distance sense, to put together a project just kudos to you guys that you're doing it cause it is an additional challenge, and you're not being funded. So I think that it's just really great to see that you enjoy what you do so much and you want the experience so much that you are keeping after a project like this. Good for y'all and good for you for sticking with it because obviously you've had to deal with people going in and out and leaving and taking on maybe bigger roles than you were expecting. Yeah, exactly. I just want this one to be finished because a lot of the other ones, they don't get finished because people lose interest or like that one thing happened where that guy was just not being agreeable after a certain point, it gets really rough. And it's I just want the product to be finished so that we can show people that we did it. That's the main thing. That you can do it. That you can do it and put it together. And like, when you're creating too, I tell people all the time, it's done is better than perfect. You know what I mean? Absolutely. It's I can sit here and tweak any little detail about it until I'm blue in the face and never release it. I could change it a million times, but you'll get nowhere doing that. Exactly. They were working on Snow White literally up until the minute before showtime. No one is perfect at all. And, I say, it's a thing that I say to myself, especially with like writing and stuff. There's such a thing as good enough, and there is, there's such a thing as good enough, put it out there and move on to the next thing. Cause sometimes that's what you need to do. Absolutely. That's what SCAD taught me. Good enough. Nope. I was a perfectionist. I lost it during college no, I'm done with this project. I can't do it anymore. I told Hayley too, we're all our own worst enemy. So it's, you'll never finish it if it's never going to be good enough. You know what I mean? It's always going to be something you can change. No, it's true. And you, and when you are your own worst critic you are absolutely like. You do have to just give it up and say it's good enough because you're the one who has to release it and put it out there. So I do want to ask just like for you and so what gaming things did like John and I were talking about this like what kind of gaming things did you grow up with that got you into gaming? Because John and I like, we come from I assume we might be a little older than you. I don't know. I don't know how to gauge anybody's ages. She's talking about college and in pandemic. I assume I'm a little bit older. Just a teeny bit. But what are the games that you grew up playing? Cause like I, when I was a kid, we had an Atari for a hot minute. Just be aware that I come from, as a child, playing things like Pitfall real ti yeah. Okay. Noted. Heh. Aware. Okay. Zelda this is my 3DS from when I was 12. Oh yeah. I still have it. Oh, nice. This is I grew up on Zelda Zelda's Like my biggest obsession is one of the only games that I play really, because I asked for an Xbox and other things. And my parents were like, you have Nintendo and that's all you get. And I was like, all right, but as long as I can play Zelda, I'm happy. So pretty much that. And then rPGs are my biggest thing. I'm like looking at all my games down there. I'm like, I got Fire Emblem, I like the rhythm games, like Theatrical Rhythm, Pokemon. Pokemon was one of the biggest besides Zelda, but Zelda has literally been my entire aesthetic since I found out what it was. Yeah always mention it. But yeah, I play other things like Among Us and things with friends, but. If I'm just by myself, it's pretty much just going to be Zelda. I love it. I have a brother that plays a lot of RPGs too. He plays like world of Warcraft, stuff like that. But he he used to play like we had when we were kids, we got PlayStation one, so like he started playing a lot of stuff on that. We always had nintendos and stuff like Super Nintendo and stuff like that. We had, he played like Zelda and Bomberman and like all that stuff, but yeah, Zelda was a big deal in my household as well with my brother for sure. See, now I'm going to age myself a lot and I'm gonna. I was in love with the DOS games from like the old PCs, like Commander Keen and Crystal Cave. I'm sure you'd have to Google these things somewhere on YouTube. I'm sure someone like still plays them somehow, but yeah, I've definitely come way from before that. But that is really that's interesting to me too. I think gaming in general is. I don't know, would you say that you think it's evolved even since you have been playing, what sort of things? Are popular anymore or what sort of games, so like when you're looking to develop like the next new game, are you looking to create something that is different than anything that people are doing right now or is there something that's like trending that you would jump into this kind of game or that kind of game? Yeah it's definitely like A balance with that sort of a thing because things that are popular versus being unique. There's definitely you got to balance the 2, but that was the thing with this game. It was, we want something simple. It was supposed to be fast. Really wasn't fast, but simple, like quick, easy, that sort of thing. So we ended up going with something that has been done a lot in recent years. There are a lot of horror hide and find games. I'm terrified of them, so I don't play them. But I know there are a lot out there because I know a lot of people who play them. And that was my thing when we switched from the hallway to the hide and find. I was like, this has been done like so many times recently. And they were like, listen, we just want to get something out there to start with. And I was like, okay, sure. A year later. But yeah, the goal was to do more unique stuff. The next time and then like me and the writers were all like, we want to do fantasy next. So that was the fantasy is coming back a lot. Right now, which I'm so happy about because I love fantasy. But yeah, it's definitely a thing, especially because I'm an artist who like sells at comic events and like stuff too. So that's always a thing when making art. Also, it's like you got to make some popular stuff, people will buy and then you got to make some stuff that, if I saw that in a con, I would immediately buy that because nobody ever makes it. Yeah, it's a balance. Yeah, you got to do both. That is very cool. I would really love to talk to you like even later offline about so like I write a fictional podcast that I would love to see as like a video game. I don't have any idea how to get it started necessarily. But I would love to talk to you about it because then I wonder too about, I know that there's programs out there online that are even like free open source programs where you can create your own like gaming app. Yeah. For example, and put those out yourself and try to have them with, paid or whatever, however you do it, is that something, from the perspective of someone who's got maybe more technical skills in it would you ever look at doing something like that, like the open source things where you can create your own gaming app or, do you, like, how did the quality of a game that's being produced, do you think that things like that, That someone's doing DIY themselves can be as, I don't know if high level is the right word, but like quality as something where you have a team put together that's working on it. I don't really know anything about the open source, make your own app situations, so I can't really say because I haven't seen like the results, but I do know that a lot of things that come from Programs that you can input like the AI art stuff that's going around a lot right now. It's not as good as when people make it themselves. I work at a print shop right now and I see so many things where people have 6 fingers. Yeah. I got an eye up here and I'm like. Guys, you got to pay attention. What are you doing? You not see that? Okay. And I know like quality definitely usually beats things where you have to just do it really easy, but there's also a lot of people like me out there who. Make those types of things for other people to use because, they understand it really well. So I think it just depends when it comes to that sort of a situation. But I think that if you are passionate enough about a project and you make it yourself, that it will be good and you will accomplish the thing. Even if you don't think so, there might be people out there who are super duper interested in that. You just gotta put yourself out there. Yeah, no. Oh, good. I was going to say there's a couple in my hometown. I'm from North Dakota and there's a couple in my hometown that they developed a RPG and MMORPG called millions of mirth. And it's it's like world of warcraft, but like a little bit of a lower budget one or whatever, but they have a player base and they've been keeping it going. I think it's like a, it's a passion project. It's not, it doesn't make them much money, but it's something they keep going and stuff like that. The guy, I think the guy's a journalist or something like that, but it's something they've been, they've had going for about 15 years that I've known about it. So it's got a player base. It's, I just thought that was interesting. I just thought of that. Sorry. Yeah, there you go. And there's always ways to get around things to get to there. I have a friend who is. They do Webtoon Canva, so they're not on Webtoon Originals, but they do have a comic on Canva. They have a good following. I'm a colorist for them. I do the flats often. And they amassed a really great following, and then they decided I'm going to make a pixel game of my main comic. And obviously, since they have a huge following already, and once they release it, I'm sure tons of people will be in on it. So it just depends on your skills. What can you do right now to help you get there? And you said that's on Canva, the So it's on Webtoon, but Webtoon has two sections. There's the originals, which are like all the people who are like super duper famous and get paid and whatnot, like Laura Olympus. And then Canva is the one where, and Webtoon it's a really great idea. What they do is Canva is an open platform. Anybody can make a comic and put it on there. You don't have to have any credentials. And then what they do is they actually pull from Canva for their originals, basically. They're just like, Oh, that one's really good. We're going to make it an original. And then they throw it in there. And the originals have books, shows, K dramas. They've amassed the weight of the top just by letting people put comics on their platform. So do the people that make those comics that are on Canva and I hope I'm saying that because I think I'm thinking Canva, like where I make the thumbnails for the YouTube videos that I make. Am I correct? Like that? Yeah, they pronounce the same way as far as I'm aware. Is it the same website, though? No. I'm like, I don't think I remember seeing comics on Canva, but okay. Okay. But I might just be like having a brain fart and it might be Canvas, but I'm pretty sure it's Canva. Let me look at my app. Don't worry about it. But, that's interesting to me, so they publish these comics that It is Canvas, I'm stupid, it's Canvas. No, you're not, don't even worry about it. Okay, but so you, when you're publishing those and then Webtoon gets a hold of it, does that person who published it on Canvas get whatever, I don't know if, is it a royalty situation? Like, how does that? I don't know the specifics, but yeah they keep the thing that they basically just They form a contract with Webtoon, is what I'm guessing is what it seems like, because I follow a lot of the original people on Instagram and stuff. It basically is like a contract, and then they move them over to originals, and then they usually, they redo their beginning ones to make it clean it up and just There's like a certain amount that you can do it lengthwise. And so they refigured the first couple, but they don't change them. And then they just keep going. And they're super duper fake. They're making tons of money. That's really interesting, though. Because as a writer, I don't have the artist, traditional artist skills of creating a character. I do abstract art for myself, but it, I don't have the the drawing skills for comics, for example. When people are posting, are these collaborative things as well, where you have someone who's maybe you have a writer who teams up with a, an artist, right? And then they make a comic and put it on there? Because I, in my mind, I'm like, okay, if I wanted to get my stuff out there in a different way in writing is that an avenue? Yeah, there, there are tons of people who do that. And there's the most because with Canvas, those are usually like, Just one person like this is my comic and I made it but like in webtoon originals because there's a lot of ones from Korea They brought over There's a lot of teams like that. There's one guy in particular who's like He's so good at what he does and I thought he was like doing both and no it turns out He's just the writer and he just finds those really great artists and pairs with them And they've got like a really good thing going and they just kept going and then some of the webtoon Originals people, they're so busy with their stuff at this point, but they have more story ideas So they'll hire other artists will be like hey, I have a story You need to be able to draw it in my style, but come over here and, we'll be your people and the webtoons they all have teams. Like I said I'm the colorist because my friend, he can't always do it all by himself. But the webtoon originals one, yeah, they have they have big teams. They have people who line them, people who flat them and color them, people who do the backgrounds. It just depends on the capacity for the original person because a lot of us end up with carpal tunnel and hand injuries and then we can't do things. No, that's, yeah, that's no good. Nobody wants that. That's really interesting though. I guess that's, it's one of those things that as a writer, I think of like the stories that I have, it's. You don't always necessarily think of those different ways or different avenues that you could follow to get your stuff out there in a different sort of way, so I think that's really cool. And I just, I do love it that I do love to see people who collaborate on things like this again, just like you have a passion and you're so interested in it that you go after it, I just, it's one of those things that it keeps you going as a creative person to see other people doing it. Yeah, definitely. For sure. So I do we want to be very respectful of your time. So we don't want to keep you forever. This has been really super interesting to me though, because there's just so many facets of all of this that I just. Did not understand so but if people want to find once you have this game if people want to find it like let us know like where can people watch for this coming and like when you do have it out we'd love to share it out with people so where should people be looking out for it or finding you if they want to talk to you in terms of the game i think our goal was to release it on steam so we don't have anywhere where you could find it yet because we have not look into making that account everybody for a little while was like, we're going to focus on making website. We're going to focus on like business stuff. And I was like, everybody come back. We need to finish the game first and we can focus on all that. So we reined it in a bit. Haven't started on those kind of outside stuff yet, but we will let you know. When we do finish it, as for me, I'm on Instagram and TikTok. I don't post on there as much though. My username is Calere. It's spelled really weird. It's C A E L E R E. It's the Roman word for sky or Latin, Latin word for sky. It's pretty, but nobody understands how to spell it. I like it. It's all right. You can send it to us. We'll put that in the description link. And definitely when you do Release the game. Let us know. Cause we would love to share that out for sure. Do you have anything else that you would want to just for yourself? What kind of self promotion do you want to do? Give you an opportunity to plug, what's your little quick CV elevator pitch. Hello, is I the person who's been talking to you this whole time. It's Hannah Kelly. Hannah Kelly is here for y'all. She is a concept artist that can keep people together who aren't even being paid. Yeah, I'm concept but also visual development as a whole, which means I do storyboards and colorist and all that sort of thing. It's like a group term. I. Would love to have a job in the professional entertainment industry. And so would so many people. We need to be better about getting us jobs. Let it, yeah, let it, letting some of the new blood in there. Like we're out here creating things on the DIY, but bring us in. We got some cool ideas for sure. I know that face says it all. I love it. I do have one, one question to just before we say our goodbyes I like, I would say the first video game that kind of got me was a grand theft auto three. The first one where they made like the actual, world where you could walk around and stuff like that. And you could actually look at it. And so what are your thoughts as a game as you're developing a game, what are your thoughts as the new grand theft auto is coming out, like if they're releasing the screens and stuff like that, what happens when you guys see stuff like that is it. Just another game or are you? Is there excitement? Oh, yeah. There's always excitement. Yeah, we're all super huge nerds. We all have like our little facets, obviously mine is Zelda, but everybody has their little like facets of things that they like absolutely are obsessed with, but especially those like titles that have been around forever. Absolutely. Like every, if you love Grand Theft Auto as a child at any point in time, like for any of the games, you will be excited for it coming out for the next million years. Like it's never going to get old. That's just me with Zelda. They just came out with this one. It was just basically Breath of the Wild again, but like different. I still played the whole thing and I'm not really done with it and love it. Whatever, it is true. Some of the things you love when you were a kid, you just love forever, right? Exactly. Yeah. That's the one thing with Zelda players too, is they usually, you usually ask them like, did you enjoy the game? I played it like 10 times. You know what I mean? So it's oh, you must really like it. Or you haven't finished it yet because you cannot stop running around doing side quests. I'm still stuck on those. It happens. How is that different than life? Don't a lot of us just get stuck on side quests in life. Absolutely. That's what these games, that's what making these projects are is a side quest. You're like, I'm not doing the main quest of adulting right now. I'm doing side quest of making funny little game. Oh, I am so with you though. I, who wants to do the main adulting game anymore anyway? She's ready. Later. Thank you so much.