This is Melissa Ford Lockin, Rosalie Petrouske, Susan Serafin-Jess, editors for the Washington Square Review. Washington Square On-Air showcases the poetry and fiction of the latest edition of LCC's literary journal, The Washington Square Review, read by the poets, authors, and editors themselves. Expect the unexpected as our contributors express experience and fantasy with humor, imagination, poetic license, irony, and passion. If you love language at its most original, please join us in our audio Town Square to celebrate a community of writers spanning from around the world to Lansing.

Hi, this is Melissa Ford Lucken. Today I'm here with two students, both of whom are graduating at the end of the semester. And Judy Ringstaff is a journalism major, and Eli Jones is a creative writing major. And I'm going to ask Judy the first question. You came here directly from high school. How did you pick lcc and how did you pick journalism?

Well, I've always been really interested in the written word. I've really enjoyed writing from a really young age. And honestly, I couldn't afford a university, and so I chose lcc. And I've really enjoyed the program. I've really enjoyed the faculty and the staff, and I've learned a lot here, and I'm very thankful for the experience.

Okay, Eli, you had a little bit of a different path. So tell us how you picked Lansing Community College and how did you pick creative writing?

I appreciate your sentiment. I'm trying to keep my age out. I'm 29, young. For anybody wondering, my path was a little different. For sure. I, like Judy, out of high school, tried to go somewhere more affordable. My path led me to Northern Michigan University, where I studied international relations and photography. And then I kind of left that kind of realm. And when I came back to go back to school, it was in the peak of quarantine in 2020, which made everything kind of get thrown for a loop. So I ended up going to LCC because I moved here to Lansing. And Governor Whitmer at the time introduced the Reconnect program for anybody over the age of 25 that didn't have a degree. And that kind of propelled me getting back into it. My path does have, like, many forks in the roads that, like, I didn't see coming. I ended up starting in nursing, and I really thought that that was going to be, like, my stable, forever job. And then if I'm being frank, I realize I don't have the compassion for people. And I was like, I should not do that. I'm going to have terrible. You can laugh. No, I, like, really, like, thought of this, like. And I was like, I'm going to have no bedside table manner that, like, I'll get fired really quick, and it's gonna be way too much money in school. And I always had this, like, backup plan that I always was, like, too afraid to go after. And it was to write. Like, I always loved writing. I would write poetry when I was upset. Just putting thoughts in my cohesive and uncohesive thoughts into, like, lyrical poetry and stuff like, that has always been, like, something that. That really, like, grounds me. So when I saw that creative writing as a program was available, that's kind of really what brought me into it.

What was the first class that each one of you took? And, Judy, why don't you talk first? What was your first writing class and your first creative writing class?

I believe the first writing class I took was just, like, a regular composition class, but I believe the first creative writing class I took was Pro Style, and that one just really digs into how to write, not nonfiction. You know, how to have an enjoyable experience writing about your own life. That was really interesting because as a writer, it's very difficult to write about your own life, because when you look at your own life, you're like, wow, this is so boring. Like, no one cares. No one wants to read this. No one wants to hear about me. But that class really helps you to step back and be like, okay, you know, people would actually enjoy this. And it's great for you as well as a writer just. Just to dive in and write out these stories from your own life.

Talk a little bit about the assignments that you did.

They were mostly essays, although he did have us do some exercises that were really enjoyable. One of them in particular, he had us draw a map of where we lived when we were younger. And it was crazy because as I'm sitting here, it was my little house and my little backyard. And then it was like, oh, but in this corner of the backyard, this spider fell on me one time, and. And, like, I cried about it for weeks. You know, it just brought up, like, these memories that you didn't. You didn't know you remembered. And then it brought up, you know, more to write about and more to dig into. Those exercises were really, really helpful.

What about you, Eli? What was the first creative writing course that you took?

I think the first one that's, like, really memorable would actually be Creative Writing one. And maybe it's just because it was, like, the first class of mine that finally got out of those, like, prereqs, like, everything before where that was just kind of like, this is something you gotta take because you gotta take it. And this class was a lot of fun because it was the first time where, like, our writing was showcased. Before that, like, I had a composition class, and it was a lot of fun. When you're in those composition courses, like, a lot of that are, like, a lot of the students in that they're not English majors, so, like, they're there to get through it. When you get into, like, those creative writing courses, like, you really start to see, like, the passion people had. So, like, Creative Writing one was probably the very first one. It was a lot of fun. It was really enjoyable.

You talked earlier about writing poems on your own, and I know that poetry is part of creative writing 1. How was that experience of writing poems in a classroom setting for a change?

It was really different, honestly, because a lot of times, like, the poetry that I would write would be similar to when, like, somebody would tell you to write down your feelings in a letter and write it really authentically, because this letter is not going anywhere. So when Susan asked us to start writing poetry and have these big ideas and big thoughts on political activism and not only share it, but this was still a course that was entirely online, and you would post it on a discussion board. So it really led you to make sure that you're being authentic to yourself because you're allowing this glimpse of other people to see what makes you you. In a time where, like, the only personal aspect of online school at that point, when they weren't ort, was what you posted in discussion boards, it sounds.

Like when you posted your poetry, that might have been the first time that you were writing poetry for a reader rather than for yourself.

Absolutely. Yeah. And it was. It was a lot to learn because you learned of all the different styles of poetry and villanelles and lyric freeform and stuff like that. And you realize, oh, like, you can do this with no rules. Because I guess maybe just me personally, but, like, growing up, I was always very told that, like, rhyme scheme was very important and it needed to always rhyme. And it'd be an A, B, B, A kind of stanzas. Like, that was like, kind of like what I always grew up on. And it's still, like, what I find myself gravitating towards. But it was nice to, like, be in a classroom and, like, learn, like, this is not how it has to be.

So you were looking at it from a maker standpoint rather than when you're in high school. Usually when you read poems, you're supposed to be figuring out what they mean.

Yeah. And it's kind of fun because it, like, it's that secondary layer of like, here's what I want you to see on the surface. But if you know me or you know about these specific things I write about, there's a deeper meaning that you. You as the writer get to embed into it. And so it's just fun seeing if people like reading it through the discussion posts and stuff like that, could see that truer meaning that you kept hitting.

Judy, what about you? Have you done any of the poetry?

I have, yeah. Unlike Eli, I didn't really write poetry outside of class. I struggled with it, to be honest. I had this mindset that it had to rhyme and it had to fit into this scheme. And I remember the. I think it's called the meter, where it's like you got a little dash and it has, you know, it has to fit into this box. And I didn't like that. I don't like, you know, to have to try and fit my works into a box that someone else decided it was really eye opening to be like, hey, I can do this the way I want to and I can enjoy it. It was an experience that needed to happen for me as a writer.

Writing poetry, it sounds like, would be very different than doing the journalistic work.

Oh, yes, 100%.

Talk a little bit about that.

Well, the main difference between a journalistic piece and a creative piece is with journalism, you can take no creative liberties whatsoever because you're telling something that has absolutely nothing to do with you. And you want it to be the facts. And that's your job, is just to give the public what they need to know and nothing else. Whereas with creative works, it's about enhancing the reader's experience and giving the reader something to connect with as well as the writer's experience as well.

Talk a little bit about prose style because you said that that was part of your personal experience, you writing down your personal experiences. But it was also a little more formal than poetry.

Yes. Yeah, it was a lot more formal in the fact that there is a little bit of style to follow there. And Lance, the professor who teaches that class, he intends for you to use it to write about your own life and to write maybe like a memoir someday.

When I'm listening to you talk about poetry, that sounds really emotional. And then I'm thinking about how you're a journalism major and I was thinking about how your journalistic work is kind of on the opposite side of poetry. And Then I was just kind of wondering how prose fit in between those things. Does it lean more into the truth or lean more into the creative, or.

How do you balance it? It's a little bit of both. And so the interesting thing about prose, it is required for the journalism degree. And I think that's because as a writer, you need to be able to connect with yourself in order to write, whether it's a novel or a journalistic piece. Poetry is a lot more emotional, and you have to really lean on the inside of yourself. Whereas, you know, a journalistic piece is just the facts.

Eli, you've taken prose, or you're taking it now?

Yeah, I'm currently in prose right now.

And what's that like for you?

It's. So, as you can tell, Judy and I are yin and yang for a lot of this stuff, which really, like, I think, highlights our friendship a lot. I struggle with pro style. Like, I struggle with having to tell a story that's, like, authentic to what happened. We talk about this process of, like, combining characters. If it's not gonna be detrimental to your story. It just feels fake. Like, I have such a hard time with it. How can I get rid of these details? Or how do I tweak them just enough that still feels true? And, like, it's so hard for me. And it's so funny because, like, you'd think that'd be the easiest thing because I'm a fiction writer. You think you'd be like, oh, this is the easy stuff. Like, oh, you don't like this. Characters, whatever. Like, kind of morph it a little while still keeping, like, their integrity intact. I don't know. Maybe it's just my writing is, like, escapism, and I use it to, like, see a different world. But, like, I truly, like, have had the hardest time with some of these projects that we do.

Well, let's switch over and talk then about the fiction. How's that for you?

I love the fiction. Yeah, that's just, like, the world that I, like, swim in. I think fiction is one of those things that everybody can relate to. And I think it goes back to what you were talking to Judy about. And when you talk about fact versus fiction, when you're doing an informative piece. And correct me if I'm wrong, Judy, because I'm not super, super into it. But when you're telling something like newspaper, it's harder for somebody to connect to, in my opinion, because it's just the facts. When I write poetry, I can have pieces in it that might Be something you need to hear. And maybe that wasn't the intent behind the piece, but you as a reader are able to pick out, like, what you're wanting from fiction. Whereas, like, when you're getting the facts, if it's not something that pertains to something of importance to you, I think it's so much easier to kind of dismiss it. You know what I mean? Because you read a poem, and it could be talking about loss or grief or something like that, but there's this line about this red shirt that the person wore, and you happen to go to the coffee shop, and you saw this moment with this person in a red shirt, and it just, like, kind of draws back to that. It's just a whole different way of, like, encompassing, like, literature for me.

What do you think about that, Judy, when you think about your journalistic work and then the creative work, how do you keep them separate?

Well, I have to agree with what Eli said. If you write, you know, say this piece about, you know, an event that happened and you put emotion into it, it's biased and it's slanted. And I think that the reason why creative writing is so powerful to, you know, the writer and the reader is because you're allowed to express your own biases and be emotional about what matters to you.

Yeah, there's like, a level of, like, passion when you have something like that.

Talk a little bit about the fiction that you've written for your classes. What's that? Like.

We're about to go into a deep, dark hole with the two of us.

Yes. I tend to struggle, you know, with when I write. I try to, you know, explore myself and things I struggle with, things that I'm passionate about and things that matter to me. 1. One thing that I. I'm laughing because for The Creative Writing 2 class I'm taking right now, I wrote poems about my experience, my childhood with my narcissistic mother. And it's just. It was. It was a very interesting experience because I didn't. I didn't know if I could do it, you know, because of all the stuff I've kept bottled up, you know, and these emotions and not wanting to process it, you know, just like, I'll just hide it away forever. It doesn't matter. But you can channel that, almost those emotions and create something that can be really beautiful and that other people who go through similar experiences can connect with and can, you know, just let people know that you're not alone. You're not alone in your struggle. And other people have Come through it and you can too.

You workshopped those poems in class, right?

I did, yeah.

How was that to share that piece of yourself?

Well, I. I knew Eli.

She does know me.

We've taken two classes together, so I felt comfortable doing it. Maybe if it had been, you know, some random strangers, I might not have, but I was comfortable with the group and I think I did talk to Eli about it first, like, hey, would this be, Would this be a good idea? But it was really interesting because they had a different perspective on it and they also were able to provide a non biased opinion of, hey, here's how to make this better. Because I was just writing it almost out of emotion and anger. And they're like, hey, you could add this in and this would make it so much more powerful. It was a really awesome experience.

What about you, Eli? What poems did you share with class?

So, as you have heard by now, I write a lot of emotion based poems. So I wanted to challenge myself and do something kind of completely different. When I was in my Composition one class with Professor Hood, I really wanted to write an essay on how the Wicked Witch of the west was actually the victim and how Dorothy was actually kind of the bad guy. It was just like that layer of loss that she went through and her sister passes and stuff like this. And I ended up not writing it for that class. And so it's always been something I've wanted to come back to. So I ended up writing a collection of poems that I called the Colors of Oz. And actually I got this idea from Judy and Robert, who were in the same workshop group. And it was beautiful what they said to do. And so it opened up, It's, I believe, 10 poems. And it opens up with the poem titled Black. The movie starts in black and white. And the beginning of the movie is considered like darker than like the happier ending of when she like wakes up and stuff like that. So it starts with black and it's abruptly cut and it goes immediately into the colors of various shades and hues of like what symbolism is in the movie. Like Elphaba's green skin, the yellow brick road, the red ruby slippers. And it like highlights different points and like things in that that maybe a first look you wouldn't have caught. And then it finishes with a poem called White. And so the idea is you could read black and then you could read white, or you could stop black in the middle, read all of what's in between, and decide for yourself what was real. And then you'd still end on White.

And when you shared them with your workshop group, what kind of experience was that?

It was weird in, like, a good way. Like, weird in the sense that, like, people hadn't heard my, like, thoughts on this. They didn't know. This was, like, some weird passion project I've been, like, saving for, like, years and wanting to do so. Like, I think they were honestly, like, a little, like, confused at first. And I was like, I'm writing a collection of poems and it's going to be on the wizard of Oz. Like Judy said, like, I knew these people. I've had classes with these people. I've had Judy in two different classes. Robert. It's now three. So it's like, it's people I'm very comfortable with. So it was like, one of those things where I was, like, I was willing to let myself fail, like, if I didn't see this taking off or being beneficial.

He did not fail. They were amazing.

Appreciate it. It was one of those things where, like, Judy said, like, it's one of those things where you get far enough into your degree that, like, we're around the same people. You know what I mean? So, like, Judy and I were in, like, the novel writing class, and we got to know each other even though we weren't in workshopping groups for that. But now that we are in the secondary class, it's like, we know the same people. There's, like, a layer of familiarity and, like, comfortability that goes into this that, like, I think, allowed both of us to do something that, like, we wouldn't have normally done.

Talk a little bit more about the communities. Like, how do you get past the initial anxiety when you first started here and you just first started sharing your work?

You really have to, like, tap into yourself. And honestly, I had to tell myself a lot of times that, like, if they don't like it, it's okay. I am a really big believer in the fact that sharing your work with others, it will help you to grow as a writer. When I was 14, I joined, like, an online writer's community, and I posted my work, and my friend, she, like, emailed me. She was like, that was awful. And she, like. She, like, completely rewrote it. And at first I was like, okay, this is. That was rude. But then I stepped back and I compared what I had written to what she had written, and I was like, she's absolutely right. And so when you share your work with others, which, first of all, we really hope they don't say, like, hey, that's awful. But Second of all, they see stuff that you don't see because you wrote it and you're like, this is my baby. It's great. I love it. And sharing it with others, it helps you to see stuff about your work that you wouldn't see no matter how many times you edited it. One thing that's really nice is that you stick with the same people all semester. And so you really get to know their writing style. And if something's a little off or, you know, you can just tell. And the same people also, it's a level of, you know, hey, I've shared my work with this group five times, and they still like me. You know, you grow with it and it really helps you a lot.

How about you, Eli?

I'm gonna be really honest now that I haven't been dishonest so far. So I'm gonna continue being honest. I think writing the novel was one of my first classes that actually was in person. Coming back into, like, going into school again and like, being a non traditional student at like, age 26, when I started this whole thing and getting to those classes around, like, 27 to 28, I was nervous. I was like, these kids are going to be, like, light years ahead of me. I took so much time off in between, and I was so nervous. And I remember getting into your class and immediately, like, racing to the front row because I was like, well, like, they're gonna hear me, they're gonna see me. Like, something's gonna happen from it. I was so wrong to be nervous because just the community and the type of people that these people were, it was just so nice to be able to connect to people at various stages in their lives, at various ages and, like, groupings and stuff like that. Like, I was, like, glad to be wrong. Like, I was really glad to be wrong. And I think that's, like, what literature does, right? Like, it connects people that maybe wouldn't have been connected before.

Talk a little bit more. You said that the kinds of people that you were in the room with.

My first workshop group for writing the novel, it was me, Nomi, and it was Sarah. I ended up actually being the youngest, which, like, never did I see that one coming. And we just had members who had children. We had members who were, like, auditing this class. We had members that were working full time. We had members who weren't working full time. We had people who, like myself, had one chapter done before this class started. We had people that were, like, finished with entire novels and it was just like, so unexpected. That all of us were able to, like, connect. Like, I don't know about you. You were the professor. So maybe you can answer this for me. But something about that class, it was special. Like, it, like, it was weird, like, how close we got. It was so easy to do the long read in front of everybody. For me, there was just this layer of, like, if I see these people out in the world, I'm not even gonna look twice. Like, I'm just gonna buy what it is. Like, I know that there was just so much talent and so much, like, brutal honesty and just, like, authentic beings. In that class, you were talking about.

Literature and the way it pulls people together. So when you have writers who love writing and they're sharing their stories, you guys get to know each other through the stories that you've written. So you get to know each other as people, but then you also get to know the characters that are created. So your characters are kind of friends with their characters.

Yeah. And it goes back to that layer thing. Right. You can see what we're writing about on the surface level, but when you get into our writing and stuff like that, you see who we are as people.

Yeah. And you talk about your life experiences and the way that they do and don't show up in the work, and that contributes a lot. When you share your work with other people, you get to know them and get to know their work and. And how they think about their work.

Yeah. And I think it's also something else to get to know someone as a writer. I don't have very many writer friends in my day to day, and so it's just nice to be able to connect with someone who isn't like, ew, I have to write an essay. And they enjoy it. They enjoy the experience. When I was in high school, people would tell me, don't go into writing. You will never make it. You'll starve. And so it was just so encouraging to be around people who are like, no, we. We can do this, and we're gonna have fun doing it.

Where do you see your writing going in the future?

That is a good question. I have no idea. I have several plans.

Well, let's hear if you can imagine anything at all.

Honestly, I just want to publish a novel, and I don't know how that's gonna happen, but I know that I'm going to keep trying until it does happen. Whether that's sending 5,000 query letters or 500, I don't know. Life is. Life is full of surprises. And I'm Just, I'm out. I'm in for the ride.

You know, it's not at all unrealistic to think when you're trying to get published, that it's going to take a while and you just keep sending the stuff out.

Yeah.

You know, and that's why what you guys are talking about with building a community is important, because you'll always have the community, and that's almost more important than the acceptance. Right. The journey.

Yeah.

And the writing and the way that it's connected to who you are as a person. What about you, Eli? Where's your writing going next?

That's a great question. So I work at a coffee shop locally, and when people hear, like, oh, you're a creative writing major, like, what are you doing? It's very fascinating to people. And I'm like, I'm going big. Like, I'm going to be the less problematic J.K. rowling. That's what I tell people. I'm going to have book series that you see everywhere. I'm going to get deals with, like, TV and stuff like that. And a lot of, like, what I think I'm writing right now with these two novels, I think would make great tv. We'll see if this holds up.

Talk a little bit about the novels.

Yeah. So in writing the novel, I started a novel, and that novel centered around the time when they were overturning, like, Roe v. Wade. And I have four younger sisters. I, like, spoke to them, like, very honestly about, like, what this means and, like, what their thoughts were. And it kind of, like, developed into this, like, idea that, like, one of the worst things you could do as, like, a society is, like, force people into, like, pregnancy. And so my novel, it's pretty dark. It's pretty dystopian. It's a gothic. And it's just this idea of, like, if you were forced to have a baby, like, how would that go? Like, what does that look like? And, yeah, it's just. It's. That's a lot, you know.

What about you, Judy?

Well, mine is, you know, almost the opposite of Eli's in that it centers around. It centers around a woman who cannot have children no matter how hard she tries. And this grief and her disappointment in herself, it's driving her insane. And she and her husband move into this new house, and all of a sudden she starts thinking, like, hey, I think a serial killer used to live here. And everyone's like, you're crazy. And she's like, no, I'm not. Maybe I am. No, I'm Not. And it's just, you know, it's a thriller. I think the best part of it is that it's looking out through, like, an insane woman's eyes. I'm having fun writing it.

When I listen to you both talking about your novels, I can tell that they're full and complete stories. So I'm starting to wonder if there is someone out there in the audience and they're listening and they're thinking about taking creative writing classes here at lcc. What would you want to tell them?

Do it. Don't hesitate. Like, sign up right now. It's worth it.

If you are considering the degree, you've already done the hard part, which is deciding. The easy part's registering. That's literally, like. That's how it felt for me. Like, the second I, like, made the decision to even show interest in it, I was like, I should just do it. Like, don't live with the regret of not taking it. The worst thing that you get is, like, an additional skill set. And it's never a bad idea to learn how to write in a different style, right?

You can be a writer for life.

Yeah, absolutely. It doesn't have to be fiction.

So where can people keep up with you if they want to come and find you and check out your writing in the future or maybe follow you on any social media that you use for your writing? Judy, where can they find you and what will they find?

So if you would like to follow me on social media, I am on Instagram under my pseudonym, which is trixbailey, and that Instagram is trixbaileywrites. And I also have an incomplete novel on Kindle Vella, and that is called man of Blood.

We'll put the information on those in the show notes. And what about you, Eli?

Yeah, I'm also on Instagram. I will give you two, because one is way too hard to spell. I have one that is tangibly Adroit Sentiments. That is where I post all my book club stuff that I host, book reviews, poems I've put out and stuff like that. You can find that in the bio of my personal Instagram account, which is much easier to find. It is. I'm Eli Jones.

Thank you very much. I really appreciate you coming and spending time with us.

Yeah. Thank you.

Thank you, Melissa.

Thank you for listening to our talented poets and authors. Until next time, this has been Washington Square On-Air, where we showcase selections from Lansing Community College's literary journal, The Washington Square Review, a publication featuring writers from the Great Lakes State, across the nation and around the world. To find out more about The Washington Square Review, visit lcc.edu/wsr. We hope you enjoyed listening as much as we enjoyed sharing.