1 00:00:00,417 --> 00:00:03,294 But sometimes, if our focus is simply on, 2 00:00:04,254 --> 00:00:07,257 being comfortable or, 3 00:00:07,257 --> 00:00:09,509 getting this problem solved. 4 00:00:09,509 --> 00:00:14,556 We can lose sight of that bigger picture and our responsibility 5 00:00:14,556 --> 00:00:19,060 and calling to bring glory to him through our interactions. 6 00:00:24,858 --> 00:00:27,861 happy to be here with John Coblentz. 7 00:00:28,570 --> 00:00:30,530 recording a few 8 00:00:30,530 --> 00:00:33,992 episodes this morning, this one and a couple others to be released later. 9 00:00:34,826 --> 00:00:35,201 Yeah. 10 00:00:35,201 --> 00:00:38,913 John, you want to just give a very brief introduction to yourself 11 00:00:38,913 --> 00:00:39,873 or some of your work? 12 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:42,250 well, I 13 00:00:42,250 --> 00:00:45,420 serve at, Faith Builders educational programs. 14 00:00:45,420 --> 00:00:49,591 I've served there as a campus pastor, and instructor, 15 00:00:50,258 --> 00:00:52,719 been there for about 18 years 16 00:00:52,719 --> 00:00:55,764 and, have really, 17 00:00:56,431 --> 00:00:59,517 enjoyed the opportunity, 18 00:00:59,517 --> 00:01:02,854 that it has offered me to study, to teach, 19 00:01:03,104 --> 00:01:06,107 to learn and, been very grateful 20 00:01:06,691 --> 00:01:11,780 the, last, couple of years now, I have been giving off 21 00:01:11,780 --> 00:01:15,533 some of my classes to younger ones, but, still teach there. 22 00:01:16,493 --> 00:01:17,619 yeah. 23 00:01:17,619 --> 00:01:18,787 18 years. 24 00:01:18,787 --> 00:01:21,372 It's hard to believe it's been that long, because. 25 00:01:21,372 --> 00:01:23,833 Yeah, you came there at the end of my time 26 00:01:23,833 --> 00:01:26,836 living in that area and being around Faith Builders, 27 00:01:28,213 --> 00:01:29,422 we interacted a little bit. 28 00:01:29,422 --> 00:01:31,841 But it's also the time when 29 00:01:31,841 --> 00:01:34,969 our sister church started there, so we didn't actually go to church together. But, 30 00:01:36,596 --> 00:01:39,599 went to youth group and so on. 31 00:01:39,641 --> 00:01:42,977 So, yeah, I was intrigued by your recent book. 32 00:01:43,061 --> 00:01:46,523 was a commentary on Ephesians, and you gave it the title, 33 00:01:46,606 --> 00:01:49,609 “God's Glory in the Church”. 34 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:53,863 And yeah, to start with, maybe just explain, 35 00:01:55,198 --> 00:01:58,201 you know, why that book or why that title? 36 00:02:00,495 --> 00:02:00,829 yeah. 37 00:02:00,829 --> 00:02:07,085 Well, I would understand, God's glory to be a fairly central 38 00:02:07,085 --> 00:02:10,797 or overarching theme of Scripture, actually, 39 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:15,635 you see it, the emphasis in creation, the emphasis then obviously in the, 40 00:02:15,969 --> 00:02:20,557 the plan to redeem, to bring us back to God. 41 00:02:21,349 --> 00:02:24,769 And I think Ephesians probably, Paul, 42 00:02:25,019 --> 00:02:28,606 in that letter, explains, 43 00:02:29,816 --> 00:02:32,485 the glory of God as a really, 44 00:02:32,485 --> 00:02:35,488 central purpose in redemption, 45 00:02:35,530 --> 00:02:38,283 that it's a display of His glory. 46 00:02:38,283 --> 00:02:42,453 And we see that in the opening chapter a number of times. 47 00:02:42,453 --> 00:02:45,456 He says, to the praise of His glory, that, 48 00:02:45,665 --> 00:02:48,877 we were chosen in Him before time. 49 00:02:48,877 --> 00:02:52,797 And it's to the praise of His glory, or the glory of His grace. 50 00:02:52,797 --> 00:02:56,176 and then that we live. 51 00:02:56,176 --> 00:03:00,972 We are those actually Paul saying that those who first trusted in 52 00:03:00,972 --> 00:03:04,058 Christ that we should be to the praise of His glory, 53 00:03:04,058 --> 00:03:09,814 and then the wrapping up of the redemption unto the praise of His glory. 54 00:03:10,190 --> 00:03:13,234 So you get this past, this present, this future 55 00:03:13,610 --> 00:03:16,613 work of God and it's huge 56 00:03:16,613 --> 00:03:19,616 and it's all for His glory. 57 00:03:19,616 --> 00:03:19,908 Yeah. 58 00:03:19,908 --> 00:03:22,577 And the scope there is so big. 59 00:03:22,577 --> 00:03:25,914 And I mean, honestly, I was reading through your 60 00:03:26,539 --> 00:03:29,375 commentary and I'm thinking, okay, this sounds, 61 00:03:31,336 --> 00:03:33,796 you know, the words you write sound over the top. 62 00:03:33,796 --> 00:03:36,674 It was like, maybe my experience doesn't match this. 63 00:03:36,674 --> 00:03:39,594 This doesn't acknowledge problems or whatever. 64 00:03:39,594 --> 00:03:43,181 And then I was like, well, wait, you're writing a commentary on Ephesians, 65 00:03:43,181 --> 00:03:47,810 and Ephesians is all about unpacking all that glorious stuff. 66 00:03:48,686 --> 00:03:51,731 If you're in First Corinthians where you'd see the other side of it 67 00:03:52,649 --> 00:03:55,235 and we will, come around in a future 68 00:03:55,235 --> 00:03:58,321 episode to address some of that underside. 69 00:03:58,363 --> 00:04:00,531 When the church 70 00:04:00,531 --> 00:04:03,493 doesn't display that glory well. 71 00:04:03,493 --> 00:04:07,455 And I'd also say, you know, 72 00:04:08,081 --> 00:04:11,084 the picture that we get in Ephesians is, 73 00:04:11,334 --> 00:04:16,422 that actually God's glory is being displayed in ways that are larger 74 00:04:16,422 --> 00:04:20,134 than actually about us or our time 75 00:04:20,134 --> 00:04:23,137 or our sphere, maybe even, but that 76 00:04:23,346 --> 00:04:26,349 what He's doing in Christ is actually, 77 00:04:26,641 --> 00:04:32,480 displaying His glory, the wisdom of God to principalities and powers. 78 00:04:32,480 --> 00:04:35,191 So it's more than about us. 79 00:04:35,191 --> 00:04:38,194 He's doing something in the heavens or in the heavenlies, 80 00:04:38,194 --> 00:04:40,154 as Paul use that expression. 81 00:04:40,154 --> 00:04:44,325 So it's this, huge things that we actually 82 00:04:44,325 --> 00:04:47,954 then are something of the display of God's 83 00:04:48,288 --> 00:04:53,001 glorious grace and wisdom and mercy, 84 00:04:53,334 --> 00:04:56,337 that he's displaying to heavenly powers. 85 00:04:57,005 --> 00:04:58,965 Yeah. Good. So there's an edge there that 86 00:05:00,091 --> 00:05:02,677 we may not even see. 87 00:05:02,677 --> 00:05:04,929 it's not for human audience only. 88 00:05:04,929 --> 00:05:06,931 Yeah. Yeah, yeah. 89 00:05:06,931 --> 00:05:08,683 That's good. 90 00:05:08,683 --> 00:05:09,017 Yeah. 91 00:05:09,017 --> 00:05:12,520 So along with that, and you used the word you talked a lot about God 92 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:15,523 gathering or assembling people into the church. 93 00:05:15,565 --> 00:05:20,278 And you'd often use assembly with a capital A there in Ephesians. 94 00:05:21,029 --> 00:05:24,032 which I like the wording. 95 00:05:24,574 --> 00:05:27,577 but then we talk about that. 96 00:05:27,618 --> 00:05:27,869 Yeah. 97 00:05:27,869 --> 00:05:31,039 What is this church in Ephesians that's displaying God's glory? 98 00:05:31,789 --> 00:05:34,876 And I'm thinking about it because most of the time in the New Testament, 99 00:05:34,876 --> 00:05:36,878 we come across church and it says, you know, 100 00:05:36,878 --> 00:05:40,715 the church that meets in somebody's house or that churches in this city, 101 00:05:40,715 --> 00:05:43,926 and it's very, you know, particular gatherings. 102 00:05:44,719 --> 00:05:48,556 But then in Ephesians, it seems to be, am I understanding it right? 103 00:05:48,556 --> 00:05:52,518 It seems to be this reference to like believers across 104 00:05:52,518 --> 00:05:54,062 time and place and everything. 105 00:05:55,188 --> 00:05:55,396 yeah. 106 00:05:55,396 --> 00:05:56,230 How do you see that? 107 00:05:56,230 --> 00:05:59,233 And maybe a little bit how those relate. 108 00:06:00,443 --> 00:06:03,071 Yeah, well, I think 109 00:06:03,071 --> 00:06:07,241 the sense of assembly or gathering is something 110 00:06:07,241 --> 00:06:11,871 that we can miss with the common use of the word church. 111 00:06:12,413 --> 00:06:16,042 we can easily associate church with a building or, 112 00:06:16,584 --> 00:06:19,337 and a locality. 113 00:06:19,337 --> 00:06:22,757 And the picture we get in Ephesians is certainly 114 00:06:23,007 --> 00:06:27,762 this pulling together, this coming together of all things in Christ and all. 115 00:06:28,262 --> 00:06:31,432 It includes believers from around the world, from all time. 116 00:06:31,766 --> 00:06:33,393 So that's the bigger one. 117 00:06:33,393 --> 00:06:38,564 But obviously there is the assembling also the coming together in localities 118 00:06:39,232 --> 00:06:42,151 which, is where 119 00:06:42,151 --> 00:06:45,154 we actually are experiencing Christ. 120 00:06:45,196 --> 00:06:48,157 And yet it's, 121 00:06:48,157 --> 00:06:51,160 energizing and invigorating and, 122 00:06:51,536 --> 00:06:56,457 just expands our understanding to realize that we're part of this larger, 123 00:06:56,457 --> 00:06:59,836 much larger around the world, around, across time 124 00:07:00,336 --> 00:07:03,339 that we are assembled together with. 125 00:07:03,923 --> 00:07:09,137 And so I like that larger picture which, enables us, I think, in times of 126 00:07:09,512 --> 00:07:13,975 perhaps disagreement or distress or trouble in our local settings, 127 00:07:14,767 --> 00:07:18,271 to keep the bigger picture in mind that, 128 00:07:18,271 --> 00:07:22,233 so they're not antithetical to each other. 129 00:07:22,608 --> 00:07:22,900 It's, 130 00:07:25,027 --> 00:07:25,570 together. 131 00:07:25,570 --> 00:07:28,573 It's both local and global. 132 00:07:30,867 --> 00:07:32,326 yeah, yeah. 133 00:07:32,326 --> 00:07:32,952 That's helpful. 134 00:07:32,952 --> 00:07:35,955 And I feel like I've went on a, 135 00:07:38,249 --> 00:07:40,042 well, okay, I've seen the need to emphasize 136 00:07:40,042 --> 00:07:41,794 different parts, I guess, over life. 137 00:07:41,794 --> 00:07:46,132 So a number of years ago, I think I was especially sensitive to, 138 00:07:47,758 --> 00:07:49,302 you know, people would talk about, 139 00:07:49,302 --> 00:07:52,930 well, the church is all believers and then just wouldn't emphasize the 140 00:07:54,265 --> 00:07:56,809 actually functioning together in groups. 141 00:07:56,809 --> 00:07:59,812 And so that led me to a kind of a, 142 00:07:59,812 --> 00:08:02,315 you know, a stronger emphasis on the local church 143 00:08:02,315 --> 00:08:05,401 where you're actually gathered and actually functioning. 144 00:08:06,319 --> 00:08:08,404 but then. 145 00:08:08,404 --> 00:08:11,407 I have come to realize exactly that point that you were making. 146 00:08:11,991 --> 00:08:15,870 If we just focus on the local church and lose sight of that bigger piece, 147 00:08:16,787 --> 00:08:20,166 or if we think our local churches are self-contained and we don't need 148 00:08:20,166 --> 00:08:22,543 input from other believers or something that becomes, 149 00:08:23,586 --> 00:08:24,295 you know, 150 00:08:24,295 --> 00:08:27,298 you get this small world pretty quickly if you think it's all 151 00:08:28,633 --> 00:08:31,385 if you think we can be by ourselves and 152 00:08:31,385 --> 00:08:34,388 one congregation or whatever. 153 00:08:35,014 --> 00:08:36,641 so the church displays God's glory. 154 00:08:36,641 --> 00:08:39,310 It's a group of people around the world brought together. 155 00:08:39,310 --> 00:08:43,147 You have all this glorious language in, in Ephesians. 156 00:08:44,315 --> 00:08:46,484 but how much of that depends 157 00:08:46,484 --> 00:08:49,487 on the things that are actually going on in 158 00:08:49,862 --> 00:08:52,281 actual relationships, 159 00:08:52,281 --> 00:08:55,660 whether they're locally or even believers relating from around the world. 160 00:08:56,994 --> 00:08:58,996 and so I'm thinking about it 161 00:08:58,996 --> 00:09:01,999 as I think about Ephesians, 162 00:09:02,500 --> 00:09:05,503 ethnic reconciliation is a big theme. 163 00:09:05,586 --> 00:09:08,130 this idea of unity, 164 00:09:08,130 --> 00:09:11,133 the gifts of the spirit, 165 00:09:11,801 --> 00:09:14,595 you know, separation from evil, 166 00:09:14,595 --> 00:09:17,598 loving each other. 167 00:09:17,807 --> 00:09:18,099 Yeah. 168 00:09:18,099 --> 00:09:22,061 How much does that display of glory depends on, like, these things 169 00:09:22,061 --> 00:09:25,189 actually happening in specific relationships? 170 00:09:26,857 --> 00:09:29,318 Yes. Well, I think 171 00:09:29,318 --> 00:09:34,407 it's a, always the challenge because we are still imperfect. 172 00:09:34,407 --> 00:09:38,369 We are still growing into the likeness or maybe continually 173 00:09:38,369 --> 00:09:40,329 growing into the likeness of Jesus 174 00:09:40,329 --> 00:09:44,542 as each generation comes, as new believers come in, 175 00:09:44,917 --> 00:09:50,423 and so we're always facing the challenge of demonstrating the glory of God, 176 00:09:50,506 --> 00:09:54,468 in our local settings, with our imperfections 177 00:09:55,094 --> 00:09:59,515 and, I don't have all the answers for, 178 00:10:00,182 --> 00:10:05,896 what that means for local, settings. 179 00:10:05,896 --> 00:10:07,773 And yet 180 00:10:07,773 --> 00:10:12,111 I care about, I think if we can see 181 00:10:12,111 --> 00:10:17,241 when we're facing distresses or differences or challenges, 182 00:10:17,992 --> 00:10:21,287 that if we can realize that this is about 183 00:10:21,287 --> 00:10:24,582 more than just our comfort or our, 184 00:10:25,541 --> 00:10:29,962 resolving this problem, it actually is about the glory of God. 185 00:10:29,962 --> 00:10:35,926 And, our interactions need to be such that, 186 00:10:36,093 --> 00:10:41,932 you know, if Paul says whether we eat or drink, we do all to the glory of God, 187 00:10:41,932 --> 00:10:45,728 then certainly how we talk to each other should be to the glory of God. 188 00:10:45,728 --> 00:10:49,815 And how we resolve or face or resolve issues should be to the glory of God. 189 00:10:49,982 --> 00:10:52,360 So we're always facing that challenge. 190 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:55,237 But sometimes if our focus is simply on, 191 00:10:56,405 --> 00:10:59,367 being comfortable or, 192 00:10:59,367 --> 00:11:03,412 getting this problem solved, we can lose sight of that 193 00:11:03,412 --> 00:11:07,708 bigger picture and our responsibility and calling 194 00:11:07,708 --> 00:11:11,170 to bring glory to him through our interactions. 195 00:11:12,213 --> 00:11:14,507 Yeah. So that's powerful. 196 00:11:14,507 --> 00:11:17,635 So what I think, and tell me if I'm getting this wrong. 197 00:11:17,635 --> 00:11:23,557 But I think what I hear you calling us there is instead of, you know, me 198 00:11:23,557 --> 00:11:28,479 being a spectator to the church I'm involved in and saying, well, 199 00:11:29,522 --> 00:11:32,566 you know, does this look glorious to me or doesn't it look glorious to me? 200 00:11:32,566 --> 00:11:36,237 You're saying, okay, Marlin, step back and think, 201 00:11:37,363 --> 00:11:39,657 here's what God wants to do. 202 00:11:39,657 --> 00:11:42,660 How are you relating to your piece 203 00:11:42,660 --> 00:11:45,996 of what God's doing in the world, which is part of 204 00:11:47,164 --> 00:11:50,167 a much bigger thing. 205 00:11:51,669 --> 00:11:54,171 We can't just say they, got to say me. 206 00:11:54,171 --> 00:11:54,672 And what am 207 00:11:55,881 --> 00:11:58,884 I doing here? 208 00:11:59,135 --> 00:12:00,970 I maybe if I would press this question 209 00:12:00,970 --> 00:12:03,973 a little bit further, though, 210 00:12:04,932 --> 00:12:07,184 so one of the passages I think about 211 00:12:07,184 --> 00:12:11,063 is chapter three, verse ten, which you already alluded to. 212 00:12:11,647 --> 00:12:17,319 God showing His wisdom to the principalities and powers, 213 00:12:17,778 --> 00:12:20,990 through the church, His multifaceted wisdom 214 00:12:22,032 --> 00:12:25,161 and in the flow of that, 215 00:12:25,161 --> 00:12:28,122 a lot of that seems to have to do with, 216 00:12:28,330 --> 00:12:32,543 you know, the mystery of the gospel, which is this is not just 217 00:12:33,335 --> 00:12:36,338 the Jewish people anymore, and it's not just people who 218 00:12:37,506 --> 00:12:39,592 have become proselytized 219 00:12:39,592 --> 00:12:42,553 to take up that Jewish identity. 220 00:12:42,928 --> 00:12:45,931 it's bringing the nations together. 221 00:12:46,807 --> 00:12:49,769 so we definitely see that on a global scale, 222 00:12:49,769 --> 00:12:52,772 and we see it pictured in Revelation, all gathered around the throne. 223 00:12:52,855 --> 00:12:53,898 we see, 224 00:12:55,024 --> 00:12:58,027 you know, currently we see the church 225 00:12:58,235 --> 00:13:01,238 spreading. 226 00:13:01,489 --> 00:13:04,492 Spreading through the world. 227 00:13:06,076 --> 00:13:07,369 but how much of that is, 228 00:13:07,369 --> 00:13:10,372 is it actually important that that happens 229 00:13:11,916 --> 00:13:14,877 locally and within concrete relationships, 230 00:13:15,002 --> 00:13:17,797 you know, across cultures, across ethnic lines 231 00:13:17,797 --> 00:13:20,800 and so on? 232 00:13:21,342 --> 00:13:21,842 yeah. 233 00:13:21,842 --> 00:13:24,970 Is the glory just that there's a church in Africa and a church in America? 234 00:13:24,970 --> 00:13:27,973 Or is it people getting along, 235 00:13:28,432 --> 00:13:31,435 across those backgrounds? 236 00:13:31,560 --> 00:13:33,020 That's a constant challenge. 237 00:13:33,020 --> 00:13:38,734 It seems like our tug is toward being together 238 00:13:38,734 --> 00:13:43,781 with people who think like us and act like us and live as we do. 239 00:13:43,781 --> 00:13:46,242 And so that's the constant tug. 240 00:13:46,242 --> 00:13:49,578 But I think it's part of the glory 241 00:13:49,578 --> 00:13:54,416 of the work of Christ that, brings together 242 00:13:54,667 --> 00:13:59,588 diversity into this oneness, a diversity of backgrounds and so on. 243 00:13:59,588 --> 00:14:03,342 And there certainly is diversity of thought that wouldn't be appropriate 244 00:14:03,342 --> 00:14:05,010 to come together. 245 00:14:05,010 --> 00:14:08,556 But coming together where we lay down 246 00:14:08,556 --> 00:14:12,852 the superficial differences and focus on our unity in Christ. 247 00:14:12,852 --> 00:14:16,647 So I love to be in groups where there is this diversity. 248 00:14:16,647 --> 00:14:19,483 I love where there's, ethnic difference 249 00:14:19,483 --> 00:14:23,404 in our background and differences of experience. 250 00:14:23,404 --> 00:14:28,659 And, I've been in situations where I've taught 251 00:14:28,659 --> 00:14:32,204 where people have come together from different denominations, 252 00:14:32,204 --> 00:14:33,789 sometimes from different countries. 253 00:14:33,789 --> 00:14:37,793 And, there's always something thrilling to me to see that 254 00:14:37,793 --> 00:14:42,256 coming together and being able to focus on Jesus in, 255 00:14:42,756 --> 00:14:47,344 a way that that, disregards some of the background and, 256 00:14:47,344 --> 00:14:50,764 or maybe, again, the superficial differences between us. 257 00:14:51,515 --> 00:14:54,310 so I recognize that tug. 258 00:14:54,310 --> 00:14:55,019 I recognize 259 00:14:55,019 --> 00:14:59,773 even that maybe there's going to be, always be some level of us coming together 260 00:14:59,773 --> 00:15:03,444 with like minded in particular ways that we live out our faith. 261 00:15:03,444 --> 00:15:06,614 And yet, I think we need to be open to it. 262 00:15:06,614 --> 00:15:08,949 And, allowing 263 00:15:10,117 --> 00:15:13,495 Jesus to really be the central reason 264 00:15:13,495 --> 00:15:16,498 why we are being gathered together, why we're coming together. 265 00:15:18,751 --> 00:15:19,043 yeah. 266 00:15:19,043 --> 00:15:21,503 Thanks for 267 00:15:21,503 --> 00:15:24,506 unpacking that. 268 00:15:25,674 --> 00:15:26,008 yeah. 269 00:15:26,008 --> 00:15:29,011 Anything else you wanted to say here? 270 00:15:29,637 --> 00:15:32,097 Yeah. Especially related to 271 00:15:32,097 --> 00:15:35,100 how God intends the church to display His glory. 272 00:15:35,142 --> 00:15:35,684 Yeah. 273 00:15:35,684 --> 00:15:39,855 The only thing I would say, maybe, is that I need to acknowledge that this probably 274 00:15:39,855 --> 00:15:44,568 has been one of the biggest areas of discouragement for me, as I think about 275 00:15:45,569 --> 00:15:47,863 what we have made of the church 276 00:15:47,863 --> 00:15:50,866 with our divisions and 277 00:15:51,784 --> 00:15:55,204 bickering over, it seems like trivial things, 278 00:15:55,204 --> 00:15:59,875 we can more easily see it in other groups than in ourselves. 279 00:16:01,126 --> 00:16:04,922 and I've wondered, I remember as a younger man studying Ephesians, really, 280 00:16:04,922 --> 00:16:07,925 and just feeling like, 281 00:16:08,050 --> 00:16:10,427 Lord, what has happened? 282 00:16:10,427 --> 00:16:11,428 What have we done? 283 00:16:11,428 --> 00:16:15,557 And feeling, 284 00:16:15,557 --> 00:16:18,560 and asking, what are the, what can be done? 285 00:16:18,602 --> 00:16:21,730 And, it does seem like 286 00:16:21,730 --> 00:16:25,484 the fragmentation is something that I don't know. 287 00:16:25,651 --> 00:16:27,027 I don't know how to undo. 288 00:16:27,027 --> 00:16:29,279 I'm don't know that I have the bigger answers, 289 00:16:29,279 --> 00:16:34,159 but it has led me to a number of personal things that I've purposed. 290 00:16:34,493 --> 00:16:39,123 And one of them is that I don't ever want to be 291 00:16:40,082 --> 00:16:42,209 a person around whom 292 00:16:42,209 --> 00:16:48,257 believers gather against other believers, that I don't want to be a part or, 293 00:16:48,257 --> 00:16:52,136 and particularly leading some kind of a division. 294 00:16:52,136 --> 00:16:55,139 Obviously, there has to be division between the church and the world, but 295 00:16:56,306 --> 00:17:00,936 between believers just, not encouraging that. 296 00:17:00,936 --> 00:17:06,191 Purposing also that I want personally to keep Jesus central so that people 297 00:17:06,775 --> 00:17:11,196 that I interact with are drawn toward Jesus, not necessarily toward 298 00:17:12,072 --> 00:17:15,075 a particular idea or 299 00:17:16,285 --> 00:17:18,328 practice or whatever. 300 00:17:18,328 --> 00:17:21,331 And again, ideas are important, practices are important. 301 00:17:21,707 --> 00:17:25,711 But we easily start losing the centrality of Jesus 302 00:17:25,711 --> 00:17:28,380 when we're focusing too much on those things. 303 00:17:28,380 --> 00:17:31,383 And also then 304 00:17:32,051 --> 00:17:36,055 another kind of personal purpose is wherever I see 305 00:17:36,638 --> 00:17:41,351 a person experiencing Jesus or pursuing Jesus, encouraging that, not 306 00:17:42,019 --> 00:17:44,688 looking at the ways in which they're not, but 307 00:17:44,688 --> 00:17:48,442 looking at the ways in which I can encourage. 308 00:17:48,442 --> 00:17:51,612 And that's when I interact with neighbors, when I interact with 309 00:17:52,404 --> 00:17:54,156 people from other groups or whatever. 310 00:17:54,156 --> 00:17:57,284 If they are focused on Jesus 311 00:17:57,284 --> 00:18:00,621 encouraging that and participating in that, 312 00:18:01,413 --> 00:18:06,418 because that's where our real unity is going to lie. 313 00:18:07,878 --> 00:18:08,253 yeah. 314 00:18:08,253 --> 00:18:11,256 So I hear you saying that you've found ways to. 315 00:18:13,175 --> 00:18:16,595 Maybe, maybe be more hopeful and also to, 316 00:18:17,471 --> 00:18:20,474 you know, to really look at. 317 00:18:20,641 --> 00:18:21,350 What am I doing? 318 00:18:21,350 --> 00:18:23,227 What are you doing personally? 319 00:18:23,227 --> 00:18:24,686 Yeah. Yeah, I like that. 320 00:18:24,686 --> 00:18:27,689 And there was a, this reminds me of a, 321 00:18:28,107 --> 00:18:32,444 section from your commentary that really resonated with me, which was. 322 00:18:33,278 --> 00:18:34,696 And I can't quote it exactly. 323 00:18:34,696 --> 00:18:38,700 something to the effect of, you know, whenever a group is 324 00:18:39,159 --> 00:18:42,579 group of believers is polemic or defined 325 00:18:42,579 --> 00:18:46,500 by what they're against, you know, there's inevitably this kind of 326 00:18:47,584 --> 00:18:50,087 faction and counter reaction. 327 00:18:50,087 --> 00:18:53,090 And so on. And, 328 00:18:54,550 --> 00:18:57,553 yeah, I heard you calling there to be centered 329 00:18:57,553 --> 00:19:01,682 and centered on Jesus and unpacking that. 330 00:19:02,641 --> 00:19:04,685 And you. Yeah. 331 00:19:04,685 --> 00:19:06,019 You can't identify. 332 00:19:06,019 --> 00:19:08,230 You can't let what you're against become your identity 333 00:19:09,565 --> 00:19:12,568 or it becomes a disaster. 334 00:19:12,901 --> 00:19:15,612 Even if the thing you're against is bad, it still becomes a disaster. 335 00:19:15,612 --> 00:19:18,240 If it's your identity. 336 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:20,159 Yeah, yeah, thanks for that. 337 00:19:20,159 --> 00:19:22,578 That's helpful and encouraging. 338 00:19:22,578 --> 00:19:26,540 Have been on, you know, similar process of thought, 339 00:19:26,540 --> 00:19:29,543 trying to think through those issues. 340 00:19:30,627 --> 00:19:32,171 So yeah. 341 00:19:32,171 --> 00:19:35,174 Thanks so much for joining us for this episode. 342 00:19:36,967 --> 00:19:38,218 Very welcome. 343 00:19:38,969 --> 00:19:43,223 Thank you for watching, this episode of Anabaptist Perspectives. 344 00:19:43,307 --> 00:19:47,477 as we mentioned, I'll be doing another interview with John, releasing soon. 345 00:19:48,103 --> 00:19:52,149 talking about the question, do bad churches glorify God? 346 00:19:52,149 --> 00:19:56,778 And diving into how to think about, some of those difficulties in church. 347 00:19:57,446 --> 00:20:02,534 also, if you have enjoyed this episode, you may enjoy, 348 00:20:02,534 --> 00:20:06,914 an interview that we did with Val Yoder, which we'll link below. 349 00:20:07,289 --> 00:20:09,958 talking about an Anabaptist view of church. 350 00:20:09,958 --> 00:20:11,001 And thanks for watching.