Speaker: 00:00:00

But sometimes, if our focus is simply on,

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being comfortable or,

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getting this problem solved.

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We can lose sight of that bigger picture

and our responsibility

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and calling to bring glory to him

through our interactions.

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happy to be here with John Coblentz.

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recording a few

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episodes this morning, this one

and a couple others to be released later.

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Yeah.

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John, you want to just give

a very brief introduction to yourself

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or some of your work?

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well, I

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serve at, Faith Builders

educational programs.

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I've served

there as a campus pastor, and instructor,

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been there for about 18 years

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and, have really,

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enjoyed the opportunity,

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that it has offered me to study, to teach,

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to learn and, been very grateful

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the, last, couple of years

now, I have been giving off

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some of my classes to younger ones, but,

still teach there.

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yeah.

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18 years.

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It's hard to believe it's been that long,

because.

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Yeah, you came there at the end of my time

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living in that area

and being around Faith Builders,

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we interacted a little bit.

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But it's also the time when

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our sister church started there, so we didn't actually go to church together. But,

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went to youth group and so on.

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So, yeah,

I was intrigued by your recent book.

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was a commentary on Ephesians,

and you gave it the title,

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“God's Glory in the Church”.

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And yeah, to start with,

maybe just explain,

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you know, why that book or why that title?

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yeah.

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Well, I would understand,

God's glory to be a fairly central

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or overarching theme of Scripture,

actually,

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you see it, the emphasis in creation,

the emphasis then obviously in the,

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the plan to redeem,

to bring us back to God.

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And I think Ephesians probably, Paul,

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in that letter, explains,

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the glory of God as a really,

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central purpose in redemption,

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that it's a display of His glory.

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And we see that in the opening chapter

a number of times.

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He says, to the praise of His glory,

that,

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we were chosen in Him before time.

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And it's to the praise of His glory,

or the glory of His grace.

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and then that we live.

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We are those actually Paul saying

that those who first trusted in

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Christ that we should be

to the praise of His glory,

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and then the wrapping up of the redemption

unto the praise of His glory.

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So you get this past,

this present, this future

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work of God and it's huge

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and it's all for His glory.

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Yeah.

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And the scope there is so big.

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And I mean, honestly,

I was reading through your

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commentary

and I'm thinking, okay, this sounds,

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you know,

the words you write sound over the top.

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It was like,

maybe my experience doesn't match this.

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This doesn't

acknowledge problems or whatever.

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And then I was like, well, wait,

you're writing a commentary on Ephesians,

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and Ephesians is all about

unpacking all that glorious stuff.

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If you're in First Corinthians

where you'd see the other side of it

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and we will, come around in a future

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episode to address some of that underside.

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When the church

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doesn't display that glory well.

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And I'd also say, you know,

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the picture that we get in Ephesians is,

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that actually God's glory

is being displayed in ways that are larger

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than actually about us or our time

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or our sphere, maybe even, but that

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what He's doing in Christ is actually,

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displaying His glory, the wisdom of God

to principalities and powers.

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So it's more than about us.

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He's doing something in the heavens

or in the heavenlies,

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as Paul use that expression.

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So it's this, huge things that we actually

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then are something of the display of God's

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glorious grace and wisdom and mercy,

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that he's displaying to heavenly powers.

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Yeah. Good. So there's an edge there that

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we may not even see.

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it's not for human audience only.

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Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

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That's good.

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Yeah.

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So along with that, and you used the word

you talked a lot about God

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gathering

or assembling people into the church.

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And you'd often use assembly

with a capital A there in Ephesians.

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which I like the wording.

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but then we talk about that.

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Yeah.

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What is this church in Ephesians

that's displaying God's glory?

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And I'm thinking about it because

most of the time in the New Testament,

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we come across church

and it says, you know,

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the church that meets in somebody's house

or that churches in this city,

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and it's very,

you know, particular gatherings.

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But then in Ephesians, it seems to be,

am I understanding it right?

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It seems to be this reference

to like believers across

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time and place and everything.

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yeah.

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How do you see that?

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And maybe a little bit how those relate.

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Yeah, well, I think

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the sense of assembly

or gathering is something

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that we can miss

with the common use of the word church.

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we can easily associate church

with a building or,

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and a locality.

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And the picture we get in

Ephesians is certainly

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this pulling together, this coming

together of all things in Christ and all.

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It includes believers

from around the world, from all time.

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So that's the bigger one.

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But obviously there is the assembling

also the coming together in localities

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which, is where

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we actually are experiencing Christ.

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And yet it's,

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energizing and invigorating and,

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just expands our understanding

to realize that we're part of this larger,

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much larger around the world, around,

across time

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that we are assembled together with.

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And so I like that larger picture

which, enables us, I think, in times of

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perhaps disagreement or distress

or trouble in our local settings,

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to keep the bigger picture in mind that,

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so they're not antithetical to each other.

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It's,

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together.

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It's both local and global.

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yeah, yeah.

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That's helpful.

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And I feel like I've went on a,

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well, okay,

I've seen the need to emphasize

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different parts, I guess, over life.

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So a number of years ago,

I think I was especially sensitive to,

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you know, people would talk about,

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well, the church is all believers

and then just wouldn't emphasize the

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actually functioning together in groups.

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And so that led me to a kind of a,

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you know, a stronger

emphasis on the local church

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where you're actually gathered

and actually functioning.

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but then.

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I have come to realize

exactly that point that you were making.

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If we just focus on the local church

and lose sight of that bigger piece,

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or if we think our local churches

are self-contained and we don't need

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input from other believers

or something that becomes,

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you know,

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you get this small world pretty quickly

if you think it's all

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if you think we can be by ourselves and

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one congregation or whatever.

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so the church displays God's glory.

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It's a group of people around the world

brought together.

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You have all this glorious language

in, in Ephesians.

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but how much of that depends

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on the things

that are actually going on in

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actual relationships,

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whether they're locally or even believers

relating from around the world.

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and so I'm thinking about it

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as I think about Ephesians,

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ethnic reconciliation is a big theme.

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this idea of unity,

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the gifts of the spirit,

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you know, separation from evil,

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loving each other.

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Yeah.

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How much does that display of glory

depends on, like, these things

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actually happening

in specific relationships?

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Yes. Well, I think

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it's a, always the challenge

because we are still imperfect.

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We are still growing into the likeness

or maybe continually

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growing into the likeness of Jesus

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as each generation

comes, as new believers come in,

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and so we're always facing the challenge

of demonstrating the glory of God,

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in our local settings,

with our imperfections

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and, I don't have all the answers for,

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what that means for local, settings.

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And yet

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I care about, I think if we can see

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when we're facing distresses

or differences or challenges,

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that if we can realize that this is about

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more than just our comfort or our,

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resolving this problem,

it actually is about the glory of God.

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And,

our interactions need to be such that,

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you know, if Paul says whether we eat

or drink, we do all to the glory of God,

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then certainly how we talk to each other

should be to the glory of God.

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And how we resolve or face or resolve

issues should be to the glory of God.

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So we're always facing that challenge.

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But sometimes if our focus is simply on,

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being comfortable or,

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getting this problem solved,

we can lose sight of that

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bigger picture

and our responsibility and calling

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to bring glory to him

through our interactions.

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Yeah. So that's powerful.

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So what I think,

and tell me if I'm getting this wrong.

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But I think what I hear you calling us

there is instead of, you know, me

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being a spectator to the church

I'm involved in and saying, well,

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you know, does this look glorious to me

or doesn't it look glorious to me?

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You're saying, okay, Marlin,

step back and think,

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here's what God wants to do.

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How are you relating to your piece

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of what God's doing in the world,

which is part of

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a much bigger thing.

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We can't just say they, got to say me.

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And what am

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I doing here?

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I maybe if I would press this question

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a little bit further, though,

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so one of the passages I think about

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is chapter three, verse ten,

which you already alluded to.

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God showing His wisdom

to the principalities and powers,

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through the church,

His multifaceted wisdom

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and in the flow of that,

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a lot of that seems to have to do with,

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you know, the mystery of the gospel,

which is this is not just

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the Jewish people anymore,

and it's not just people who

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have become proselytized

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to take up that Jewish identity.

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it's bringing the nations together.

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so we definitely see

that on a global scale,

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and we see it pictured in Revelation,

all gathered around the throne.

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we see,

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you know, currently we see the church

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spreading.

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Spreading through the world.

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but how much of that is,

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is it actually important that that happens

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locally and within concrete relationships,

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you know, across cultures, across

ethnic lines

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and so on?

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yeah.

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Is the glory just that there's a church

in Africa and a church in America?

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Or is it people getting along,

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across those backgrounds?

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That's a constant challenge.

237

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It seems like our tug is toward

being together

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with people who think like us

and act like us and live as we do.

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And so that's the constant tug.

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But I think it's part of the glory

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of the work of Christ

that, brings together

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diversity into this oneness,

a diversity of backgrounds and so on.

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And there certainly is diversity

of thought that wouldn't be appropriate

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to come together.

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But coming together where we lay down

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the superficial differences

and focus on our unity in Christ.

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So I love to be in groups

where there is this diversity.

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I love where there's, ethnic difference

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in our background

and differences of experience.

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And,

I've been in situations where I've taught

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where people have come together

from different denominations,

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sometimes from different countries.

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And, there's always something

thrilling to me to see that

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coming together

and being able to focus on Jesus in,

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a way that that, disregards

some of the background and,

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or maybe, again,

the superficial differences between us.

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so I recognize that tug.

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I recognize

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even that maybe there's going to be,

always be some level of us coming together

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with like minded in particular ways

that we live out our faith.

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And yet,

I think we need to be open to it.

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And, allowing

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Jesus to really be the central reason

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why we are being gathered together,

why we're coming together.

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yeah.

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Thanks for

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unpacking that.

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yeah.

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Anything else you wanted to say here?

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Yeah. Especially related to

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how God intends the church

to display His glory.

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Yeah.

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The only thing I would say, maybe, is that

I need to acknowledge that this probably

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has been one of the biggest areas

of discouragement for me, as I think about

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what we have made of the church

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with our divisions and

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bickering over,

it seems like trivial things,

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we can more easily see it in

other groups than in ourselves.

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and I've wondered, I remember as a younger

man studying Ephesians, really,

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and just feeling like,

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Lord, what has happened?

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What have we done?

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And feeling,

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and asking,

what are the, what can be done?

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And, it does seem like

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the fragmentation

is something that I don't know.

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I don't know how to undo.

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I'm don't know that

I have the bigger answers,

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but it has led me to a number

of personal things that I've purposed.

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And one of them is

that I don't ever want to be

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a person around whom

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believers gather against other believers,

that I don't want to be a part or,

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and particularly

leading some kind of a division.

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Obviously, there has to be division

between the church and the world, but

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between believers just,

not encouraging that.

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Purposing also that I want personally

to keep Jesus central so that people

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that I interact with are drawn toward

Jesus, not necessarily toward

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a particular idea or

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practice or whatever.

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And again, ideas are important,

practices are important.

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But we easily start

losing the centrality of Jesus

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when we're focusing

too much on those things.

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And also then

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another kind of personal purpose

is wherever I see

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a person experiencing Jesus or pursuing

Jesus, encouraging that, not

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looking at the ways

in which they're not, but

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looking at the ways

in which I can encourage.

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And that's when I interact with neighbors,

when I interact with

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people from other groups or whatever.

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If they are focused on Jesus

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encouraging that

and participating in that,

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because that's

where our real unity is going to lie.

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yeah.

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So I hear

you saying that you've found ways to.

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Maybe, maybe be more hopeful and also to,

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you know, to really look at.

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What am I doing?

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What are you doing personally?

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Yeah. Yeah, I like that.

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And there was a, this reminds me of a,

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section from your commentary

that really resonated with me, which was.

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And I can't quote it exactly.

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something to the effect of,

you know, whenever a group is

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group of believers is polemic or defined

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by what they're against,

you know, there's inevitably this kind of

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faction and counter reaction.

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And so on. And,

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yeah,

I heard you calling there to be centered

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and centered on Jesus and unpacking that.

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And you. Yeah.

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You can't identify.

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You can't let what you're

against become your identity

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or it becomes a disaster.

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Even if the thing you're against is bad,

it still becomes a disaster.

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If it's your identity.

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Yeah, yeah, thanks for that.

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That's helpful and encouraging.

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Have been

on, you know, similar process of thought,

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trying to think through those issues.

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So yeah.

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Thanks so much for joining us

for this episode.

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Very welcome.

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Thank you for watching,

this episode of Anabaptist Perspectives.

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as we mentioned, I'll be doing another

interview with John, releasing soon.

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talking about the question, do

bad churches glorify God?

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And diving into how to think about,

some of those difficulties in church.

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also, if you have enjoyed this episode,