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Matt: Hello and welcome
to the e commerce podcast.

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My name is Matt Edmundson and I'm
your host for this conversation.

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This is a show all about helping
you deliver eCommerce wow.

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And to help us do just that.

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I'm chatting with Eagan Heath from
Caravan Digital, which I think is

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probably one of the coolest names for
a company I've heard for a long time.

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We are going to be talking about
eCommerce, marketing, funnel marketing.

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We're going to get into
the whole thing, basically.

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It's good.

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It's going to be good.

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Now, before we get into it though,
let me just remind you, if you

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haven't done so already to sign up
to the newsletter just head over

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to the website, eCommercePodcast.

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net, putting your name and
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Send to you the newsletter every week with
all the links and the notes from the show.

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So the conversation we're about to
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all comes to your inbox automagically.

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It's a beautiful thing.

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Let me tell you.

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Now, today's show is brought to
you by E-Commerce Cohort, which

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is our monthly mastermind group.

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Why not come join us?

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It's a membership group.

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You come in every month.

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We'll get in experts to come and
teach on all the aspects of eCommerce.

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You can work alongside the
lessons, do what we do, and

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just have some fun in there.

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Plus, you also get to see the
live recording of this podcast.

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You get to ask questions directly
to the guest, which is just Awesome.

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So yeah, come along to
Cohort, ecommercecohort.

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com for more information.

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That's ecommercecohort.

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com.

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We would love to see you
in there most definitely.

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And of course, if you're new to the
show, a very warm welcome to you.

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Now, let's talk about Mr.

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Eagan Heath.

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The mastermind behind Get Found Madison
and Caravan Digital, who's been turning

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online traffic into treasure since 2016.

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Oh yes, he's not just a
digital marketing guru.

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Oh no, he's also the brain
behind the innovative My Digital

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Marketing Mastery Course.

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And the former captain of the quirky
pet portrait ship Splendid Beast.

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I've no idea either, but we'll find out.

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I catch him sharing his eCommerce
expertise on the What's Working in

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eCommerce show, where he leads the
digital waves with tips and tales.

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Oh yes.

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It's good to be talking
to a fellow podcaster.

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Eagan, welcome to the show, man.

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Been looking forward to this.

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How are you doing today, sir?

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Eagan: Great.

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Even better after that intro.

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Thank you, Matt.

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Matt: Dude, you've got to explain the
quirky pet portrait ship Splendid Beast.

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Eagan: That's right.

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Yeah.

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So I also had an e commerce business.

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It's called Splendid Beast.

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You can check it out at splendidbeast.

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com.

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I purchased it from a friend.

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I grew it a bit and I sold it actually
during the pandemic to focus on my agency.

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But basically Splendid Beast does a
custom oil pet portraits of your dog, cat,

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whatever you have and any way you want.

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And you want your dog
as Winston Churchill.

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You want your, cat as As Emily Dickinson
whatever you want, you can do it.

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And they're actual handmade oil portraits
and they take a, it, they take a little

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while to paint and then they actually
have to dry and we ship them to you

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and you can see a couple behind me, you
can see the, this cat is the Maharashi

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behind me and we also have Gizmo, the.

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The owners the founder's pet dog is
a professor and he is got a little

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neck tie and things like that.

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So it was a very fun business.

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I had a lot of fun with it.

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I learned a lot.

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And oftentimes client clients
are glad to know I've run an

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e-commerce business myself too.

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Matt: That's a we'll stick on that point
for a little bit, but then I've got

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some more questions about the pet thing.

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I'm not going to lie, we're
going to get onto that.

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One of the things that I've always found
quite fascinating about eCommerce is

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the amount of gurus in the world who
claim to know stuff, but don't actually

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run their own eCommerce business.

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And I've always found
that quite fascinating.

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And like you, I thought I actually
was an eCommerce entrepreneur

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before I did the agency thing.

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And before I did the whole coaching
thing and in fact, all the coaching

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came out of what we learned.

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in eCommerce and that always
was one of those things that you

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clients really warm to really.

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And I always I, in fact, I always used
to say, I still say, because a lot of,

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I don't know if you found this, Eagan,
but a lot of people will go to Say their

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web designer for help with e-commerce.

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It's something's not working.

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I'll go talk to my website guy.

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But that's a bit like going to a midwife
and asking them for parenting advice.

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The midwife is very good at one particular
part of the journey, doesn't mean

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that they're good at everything else.

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And yeah.

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I'm intrigued by this.

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So you I totally get it.

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Actually.

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The fact that you do e-commerce, I
imagine is a big plus for your clients.

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Eagan: Yep.

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Yeah.

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And I think that's right.

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I think I always like the comparison
also to, I don't know what you guys.

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Say in the UK, but here in the US,
it's like when you physically build

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a house or a building or, anything,
it's like you've got the general

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contractor who's overseeing all the
subcontractors or contractors underneath.

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And somebody has got to do the electrical.

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Somebody has got to do the plumbing.

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Somebody has got to do
all of these pieces.

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And so it makes sense from the client's
perspective that they don't know about

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all the stuff that happens behind the
scenes that they maybe had one place built

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their Shopify site or something like that.

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But now we need to get
people to that site.

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We need to get people buying.

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Those are separate skills
and that makes sense to us.

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We know that from being in the game for
a number of years, but if you're brand

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new and you're just trying to get some
products online or just starting to sell

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that, that can be news to you sometimes.

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And so there are separate sub
skills within this world, right?

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Matt: yeah, absolutely.

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That's intriguing.

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Fascinating.

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And I'm curious, though, what made you buy
a pet portrait business from your friend?

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Because I don't know, just in all the
times I've sat here and thought, what

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eCommerce business shall I do next?

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It never came up to paint
pets with oil paintings.

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So I'm curious, what
was it that drew you in?

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Eagan: Yeah, great question.

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So I had started life, you
mentioned Get Found Madison.

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We're based out of Madison, Wisconsin.

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It really started as a local
SEO and Google Ads agency.

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So a lot of our clients are still
based out of here in the upper

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Midwest in the United States.

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And so I really knew that piece
about keyword research, on site

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optimization, running pay per click ads.

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And I had talked with my friend
Ben who started Splendid Beast.

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And he was looking to get out of it.

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And he was even just
going to shut it down.

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And I said, there's really
more opportunity here.

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And in particular, I'd
done the keyword research.

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And at the time, this was
a number of years ago.

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It was in the U S alone.

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It was like dog paintings was
searched 4, 400 times a month.

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Cat paintings, thousands of times.

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And then variations on each of those
thousands and thousands of times.

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And at the time it was
a site, I believe on.

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Weebly, do you remember that one?

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This was pre, pre, so it
wasn't on WordPress, wasn't on

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Shopify or anything like that.

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And I said, boy, there's
a lot of opportunity here.

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So first thing I did was, we really
got, we updated it in terms of on

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WooCommerce and then we built out
pages for dog painting, cat painting,

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pet portrait, everything like that.

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And for a little while there,
we were number one in the U.

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S for dog paintings.

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We got a lot of traffic that way.

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So I saw the demand that we could tap
into where my friend who'd started

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it, was really on the design side.

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He did the pho, the Photoshopping
and things like that, and had the

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relationships with the painters.

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But I had that marketing mind and it's
like anyone who buys a business, it's

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like you see something that maybe the
current owner doesn't see and you think

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you can take it to the next level.

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Did for a while, had a lot of fun with
it and realized that my, my agency

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was requiring so much time that I
had to choose one or the other during

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COVID and it was sad to let it go.

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I'm bittersweet about it, but basically
the guy who was operating it for me, took

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it over, had him trained on everything
and we're, we're still great friends.

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Matt: Wow.

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What a great story.

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And it's interesting that you
talk about doing keyword research

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before buying the business.

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Because one of the questions I get asked a
lot is if I'm going to set up an eCommerce

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business, what product should I sell?

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How do I know what's a
good product to sell?

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Would you still advocate
for that today as in?

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If I'm thinking of setting up an
eCommerce business, I have a product idea.

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Would you then go and do the keyword
research to find the demand of that?

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And how would you, how would
you correlate that to the

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competition behind that keyword?

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Eagan: Yeah.

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Great questions.

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I think that's part of what I
think we're talking about today too

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with the full funnel marketing and
strategy and everything like that.

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I think it depends on what you're
selling, depends on kind of which

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way you want to take things.

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But to me, I always
want to know that piece.

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And it's the, it's this world of,
Everything's amazing and nobody cares.

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Like we forgot how special it is to
be able to do that keyword research.

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We take it for granted, but you and
I have lived long enough, like we

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remember the days of, the phone book
and things like that, of, you knew

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there was a phone book, you knew
you could put your business in it.

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You didn't know how many times
a month people opened it up and

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looked for businesses like yours.

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Now we have at least some
idea about that directionally.

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And so if we're tapping into any sort of
demand if we're selling a product that's.

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Something people already look for, I
think it behooves you to know that,

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and I think if I did it now, I would,
I would want to know the Amazon traffic

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as well, so I think it's just getting a
sense of understanding that's even the,

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those are the head terms, dog painting,
cat painting, pet portrait, those are

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the tip of the iceberg, and then there's
going to be all these others, and I went

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down the list, and it got so specific,
it was like French Bulldog painting,

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that's got a couple hundred searches per
month and then one of our first sales

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I got when I took it over was a Bichon
Frise painting and I had to look that up.

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I didn't my, my wife loves dogs.

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We don't have a dog.

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So I was like, what is that?

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People are looking for their breed of
a painting and I saw it in the, the

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PPC Google Ads reporting basically
that someone searched that phrase

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And you could click, clicked and
bought, like that was one of our

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first conversions on Google ads.

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And I said, wow, there's
really something here.

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And the old, again, the old owner, my good
friend, Ben, he didn't think like that.

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He didn't have that
training, those skills.

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And so to even go down that route.

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And so we started to create,
we had a rat painting page.

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We had a, we had Boston Terrier page.

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We, it's like all those top breeds, like
we went down the list and it's like as

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crazy as it seems, as niche as it seems.

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Someone is searching for, a
page, paintings of bulldogs

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and of their bulldogs.

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Sometimes it's paint my
dog and things like that.

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And so I think any time you're tapping
into existing demand, you want to

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know what that search volume is.

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Now, you also mentioned the competition.

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That's a good point.

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SEO tools like Ahrefs or SEMrush
or others, can help you estimate

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00:10:19,576 --> 00:10:21,036
how competitive that's going to be.

234
00:10:21,296 --> 00:10:24,936
I know there's Helium 10 and others on
Amazon where you can do similar work.

235
00:10:25,406 --> 00:10:27,136
I think it's good to know that, too.

236
00:10:27,801 --> 00:10:31,871
Of how competitive is it, but even
just a rough and ready sort of way

237
00:10:31,871 --> 00:10:35,091
to check for a competition is you
search those phrases, you do it

238
00:10:35,091 --> 00:10:37,121
incognito or in private browsing mode.

239
00:10:37,481 --> 00:10:39,081
How many ads do you see, right?

240
00:10:39,141 --> 00:10:41,381
Are you, do you see the
Google shopping ads appearing?

241
00:10:41,721 --> 00:10:43,221
Do you see search ads at the top?

242
00:10:43,431 --> 00:10:46,491
You can get a sense right there, if
people are advertising on this, either

243
00:10:46,501 --> 00:10:49,951
everybody in the industry is incompetent
and they're advertising on a keyword

244
00:10:49,951 --> 00:10:53,271
that doesn't convert, or there's
information here in the market, right?

245
00:10:53,271 --> 00:10:56,461
So right on that search page, I think
there's information we can be learning

246
00:10:56,461 --> 00:10:59,751
from about how competitive is this, and
we know it's an auction, we're gonna,

247
00:10:59,801 --> 00:11:02,371
we're gonna be paying more per click
if I see a lot of other ads there.

248
00:11:02,601 --> 00:11:05,546
And if there's no ads at all on
a phrase, Maybe there's not a

249
00:11:05,546 --> 00:11:06,776
lot of commercial intent here.

250
00:11:07,049 --> 00:11:07,439
Matt: Yeah.

251
00:11:07,739 --> 00:11:08,069
Yeah.

252
00:11:08,669 --> 00:11:10,279
It's, I mean it's one of those, isn't it?

253
00:11:10,334 --> 00:11:12,494
I think there are very few phrases that.

254
00:11:12,909 --> 00:11:15,879
That are undiscovered for want of
a better expression, and we always

255
00:11:16,159 --> 00:11:18,259
every now and again, you come
across them, they think, Oh, this

256
00:11:18,279 --> 00:11:19,689
is going to rock everybody's world.

257
00:11:20,139 --> 00:11:22,769
And it's, there's a reason
why it is what it is.

258
00:11:22,799 --> 00:11:29,159
But if you are starting again today, or
I came to you to your agency to Caravan

259
00:11:29,159 --> 00:11:32,949
Digital, and I said, you can listen,
but my wife enjoys painting pets.

260
00:11:32,959 --> 00:11:35,639
So I'm going to set up
a pet painting business.

261
00:11:36,379 --> 00:11:41,389
Is that, how would you, with the
full funnel marketing sort of

262
00:11:41,549 --> 00:11:44,569
thing that we're going to get
into how would I approach this?

263
00:11:44,609 --> 00:11:47,689
Because I imagine it's a lot
more competitive now than when

264
00:11:47,689 --> 00:11:49,549
you took over from your friend.

265
00:11:50,129 --> 00:11:53,509
So getting ranked SEO wise
is going to be complex.

266
00:11:53,919 --> 00:11:57,189
Google ads is going to be a little
bit more expensive, I'm thinking.

267
00:11:57,189 --> 00:11:58,969
Yeah where would you go with that?

268
00:12:00,056 --> 00:12:00,976
Eagan: Yeah, that's great.

269
00:12:00,976 --> 00:12:02,176
And maybe it's a good
time to get into that.

270
00:12:02,176 --> 00:12:05,936
If I think there is an element of
the customer persona, probably the

271
00:12:06,036 --> 00:12:07,726
listeners or viewers have heard that.

272
00:12:07,756 --> 00:12:09,496
Is that something you
guys do at your agency?

273
00:12:10,234 --> 00:12:12,114
Matt: Yeah, oh yeah, I'm a big
fan of understanding the customer.

274
00:12:12,204 --> 00:12:12,904
Yeah, oh jeez, yeah.

275
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Eagan: Yeah.

276
00:12:14,566 --> 00:12:14,986
Yeah.

277
00:12:15,226 --> 00:12:16,316
So we actually.

278
00:12:16,481 --> 00:12:17,271
Put a Facebook name.

279
00:12:17,271 --> 00:12:18,401
We create a composite person.

280
00:12:18,401 --> 00:12:21,591
I can share and pull some up if we want
to see some and look through some, but

281
00:12:21,591 --> 00:12:23,601
it's literally, who are we talking about?

282
00:12:23,611 --> 00:12:24,361
Who are we selling to?

283
00:12:24,361 --> 00:12:25,481
It's who are we serving?

284
00:12:25,941 --> 00:12:27,391
I think it really starts there.

285
00:12:28,081 --> 00:12:30,401
And from there it's, what do they want?

286
00:12:30,411 --> 00:12:31,471
What are their aspirations?

287
00:12:31,471 --> 00:12:32,181
What are their goals?

288
00:12:32,181 --> 00:12:33,261
What are their pain points?

289
00:12:33,666 --> 00:12:34,576
Who are we talking about?

290
00:12:34,576 --> 00:12:35,776
Let's put a, let's put a picture.

291
00:12:35,776 --> 00:12:36,586
Let's put a name on it.

292
00:12:36,596 --> 00:12:40,496
Let's make this a real person with a,
a real age, a real city, a real income.

293
00:12:40,906 --> 00:12:44,196
Let's let's flesh it out and
then think about where are they?

294
00:12:44,196 --> 00:12:45,356
Where do they spend time?

295
00:12:45,696 --> 00:12:47,266
Where can we catch their attention?

296
00:12:47,631 --> 00:12:51,691
is part of it, but it's also what
sort of messaging and creative do

297
00:12:51,691 --> 00:12:55,161
they need to see, what's going to
speak to them at each of those levels.

298
00:12:55,161 --> 00:12:59,781
And so somebody who is maybe they're
on TikTok, maybe they're on Instagram,

299
00:13:00,221 --> 00:13:04,551
and they've never even thought I
could get a funny painting of my dog

300
00:13:04,551 --> 00:13:07,691
or I could create, it's like they
they would need to see examples.

301
00:13:07,761 --> 00:13:10,181
And that was this was an
interesting example for me, Matt.

302
00:13:10,401 --> 00:13:13,501
When I first bought the business,
I was obviously showing people,

303
00:13:13,501 --> 00:13:15,451
Hey, check out this site,
splendidbeast.Com, check it out.

304
00:13:15,451 --> 00:13:17,211
And it was the old site
before we redid it.

305
00:13:17,661 --> 00:13:21,061
And a good friend of mine who's
a marketer browsed through it and

306
00:13:21,071 --> 00:13:22,611
she goes, What am I looking at?

307
00:13:23,711 --> 00:13:27,521
And it was, it was pictures of
paintings, but it was on a computer and

308
00:13:27,521 --> 00:13:29,401
it was zoomed in just to the painting.

309
00:13:30,046 --> 00:13:33,086
And so she thought, are these
photoshopped images themselves?

310
00:13:33,736 --> 00:13:34,716
Is this art?

311
00:13:35,686 --> 00:13:36,276
What do I do?

312
00:13:36,276 --> 00:13:40,236
And so immediately I got the idea,
okay, we need to have people standing

313
00:13:40,236 --> 00:13:42,656
next to their pets so we can see it.

314
00:13:42,656 --> 00:13:47,286
Or we need the pet right next to the
painting so that people can understand

315
00:13:47,286 --> 00:13:50,336
immediately, this is this pet, right?

316
00:13:50,636 --> 00:13:52,906
And this is a painting you get of the pet.

317
00:13:52,906 --> 00:13:54,386
Is it okay if I share a screen

318
00:13:54,484 --> 00:13:54,724
Matt: Yeah.

319
00:13:54,724 --> 00:13:54,964
Yeah.

320
00:13:55,014 --> 00:13:55,884
Let me bring that on.

321
00:13:55,984 --> 00:13:56,204
Yeah.

322
00:13:56,204 --> 00:13:56,514
Yeah.

323
00:13:56,984 --> 00:13:59,004
So if you're watching the video
we're looking at a screen.

324
00:13:59,004 --> 00:14:00,974
So maybe just talk us through
what we're seeing as well.

325
00:14:00,974 --> 00:14:02,324
You can, for those that
are just listening,

326
00:14:03,106 --> 00:14:05,456
Eagan: Yeah, can you hear
this on splendidbeast.Com?

327
00:14:05,476 --> 00:14:08,876
Again, this is my former business and
it's based on that learning from my

328
00:14:08,876 --> 00:14:14,296
friend Helen It was like, okay We used
to have it was just this painting Zoomed

329
00:14:14,296 --> 00:14:16,756
in and you couldn't even tell it was a
painting because people see all kinds

330
00:14:16,756 --> 00:14:20,316
of images online They don't know this
is a handmade oil painting, right?

331
00:14:20,556 --> 00:14:23,976
And then we also need to understand
it's this dog and so online

332
00:14:23,976 --> 00:14:28,111
on splendidbeast.Com now we've
got Pictures of pets, right?

333
00:14:28,111 --> 00:14:31,071
So we've got this cat and then
we've got the cat is the famous

334
00:14:31,071 --> 00:14:32,601
Van Gogh self portrait, right?

335
00:14:32,601 --> 00:14:33,571
With his ear cut off.

336
00:14:34,171 --> 00:14:37,011
And so we can at least
understand a little better.

337
00:14:37,501 --> 00:14:39,281
This is my specific cat.

338
00:14:39,561 --> 00:14:41,841
And then this is a
painting like this, right?

339
00:14:42,181 --> 00:14:43,281
And so same story.

340
00:14:43,281 --> 00:14:44,431
There's all kinds of different types.

341
00:14:44,431 --> 00:14:46,061
I can have my dog in Star Trek.

342
00:14:46,321 --> 00:14:49,891
And if I can see, at least
get a sense of here's a pet.

343
00:14:50,261 --> 00:14:52,671
Here's a specific pet, here's a
portrait, here's, and I can see,

344
00:14:52,671 --> 00:14:55,361
this is actually on the wall, some
of these have frames and things

345
00:14:55,361 --> 00:14:58,861
like that, and then people actually,
this is great if you can get, user

346
00:14:58,861 --> 00:15:00,711
generated content of people posting it.

347
00:15:00,711 --> 00:15:04,361
Here's my cat, here's my cat painted
as an astronaut, here's a smiling face.

348
00:15:04,561 --> 00:15:06,791
It's just much more immediate like that.

349
00:15:06,821 --> 00:15:09,401
Going back to your question
was, where do we start?

350
00:15:09,816 --> 00:15:12,786
There might be quirky people who have
certain interests, like obviously they

351
00:15:12,786 --> 00:15:16,326
love their pets, that's going to be a huge
part of their persona and then there's

352
00:15:16,326 --> 00:15:19,106
some sort of quirky sense of humor where
they wouldn't be embarrassed having

353
00:15:19,106 --> 00:15:21,476
this up in their house, they would be
proud, they would show their friends and

354
00:15:21,476 --> 00:15:25,656
family, they would even post on Instagram
to say this is something they would do

355
00:15:25,656 --> 00:15:30,736
so it's like we're getting a sense of
what type of quirky person would pay for

356
00:15:30,756 --> 00:15:32,206
a painting like this, whatever, yeah.

357
00:15:32,441 --> 00:15:33,741
Where can we reach them?

358
00:15:33,951 --> 00:15:36,351
And immediately, we
understand a little better.

359
00:15:36,351 --> 00:15:40,151
If we just had, here's a cat
in a, in an astronaut costume.

360
00:15:40,571 --> 00:15:44,121
It's we may not understand, you
can actually do this for your cat.

361
00:15:44,481 --> 00:15:46,581
And hang it on the wall, right?

362
00:15:46,681 --> 00:15:50,121
And so it's that sort of
thought, now we can pop a funnel.

363
00:15:50,311 --> 00:15:54,431
Someone who's never even thought to
search cat astronaut painting can get the

364
00:15:54,431 --> 00:15:57,861
idea planted in their head and they can
be looking at their cat thinking, huh,

365
00:15:57,861 --> 00:16:01,941
what does my cat's personality match or
my dog, how would I have them painted?

366
00:16:02,231 --> 00:16:05,761
So it's, I think it's that sort
of idea of where can we find them?

367
00:16:05,761 --> 00:16:07,091
Where are they hanging out if they're.

368
00:16:07,416 --> 00:16:08,476
Totally top of funnel.

369
00:16:08,686 --> 00:16:11,156
Didn't even know this was something
they could ever purchase in the

370
00:16:11,156 --> 00:16:12,726
world or a commission, as we say.

371
00:16:12,986 --> 00:16:14,566
And so where are they hanging out?

372
00:16:14,566 --> 00:16:16,376
Where can we even get them aware of it?

373
00:16:16,646 --> 00:16:18,586
And then how do we make
it like very immediate?

374
00:16:18,586 --> 00:16:19,636
So it speaks to them.

375
00:16:19,866 --> 00:16:22,996
And so we went through anywhere on
Instagram where people had tagged

376
00:16:22,996 --> 00:16:27,926
us that user generated content
that UGC was extremely valuable and

377
00:16:27,926 --> 00:16:31,236
much better than any pictures that
my old friend Ben had zoomed in.

378
00:16:31,286 --> 00:16:32,966
Nice quality of a painting, but.

379
00:16:33,226 --> 00:16:35,256
We couldn't tell at a distance
that it was a painting.

380
00:16:35,266 --> 00:16:37,626
Sorry if I went on too long about that,
Matt, but that's how I think about it.

381
00:16:38,294 --> 00:16:39,084
Matt: No, it's really good.

382
00:16:39,084 --> 00:16:43,634
And I, as I was looking at the images
there on the website the one thing that

383
00:16:43,634 --> 00:16:48,259
I was, That I noticed about the images,
as soon as you add the pet and you give

384
00:16:48,259 --> 00:16:53,509
it context, you're actually showing that
in some respects the transformation,

385
00:16:53,509 --> 00:16:57,289
it felt a bit like a before and after
photo, do you know what I mean, of

386
00:16:57,809 --> 00:17:01,049
this is what I was and then I lost 75
pounds in two weeks and this is what I

387
00:17:01,049 --> 00:17:05,509
am now, those kind of shots which show
transformation and they're really powerful

388
00:17:05,569 --> 00:17:08,479
because it actually tells the story,
doesn't it, of where you are and where

389
00:17:08,479 --> 00:17:12,589
it could be, and I can imagine actually,
if you just zoomed in on the painting

390
00:17:13,179 --> 00:17:15,879
if the paintings are any good, you
might, you could easily go, what is it?

391
00:17:15,879 --> 00:17:16,989
It's just an image of a dog.

392
00:17:16,989 --> 00:17:19,089
I don't quite, I don't quite understand.

393
00:17:19,699 --> 00:17:24,029
So I see, and I'm imagining
actually the conversion went

394
00:17:24,039 --> 00:17:25,159
up as soon as you did that.

395
00:17:26,571 --> 00:17:30,021
Eagan: Yeah, certainly we were tracking
conversion rate, everything like that, but

396
00:17:30,091 --> 00:17:33,681
even just the understanding if someone's
scrolling through Facebook wherever

397
00:17:33,681 --> 00:17:35,301
on social media, they might see this.

398
00:17:35,711 --> 00:17:37,961
I need it to we got to
stop the thumb, right?

399
00:17:38,141 --> 00:17:40,781
And in general, if they're social
media, I'm thinking in many

400
00:17:40,781 --> 00:17:42,071
cases, that's top of funnel.

401
00:17:42,081 --> 00:17:44,621
Back in the day, we could
remarket a little better, but

402
00:17:44,651 --> 00:17:45,991
as it stands, it's like with.

403
00:17:46,256 --> 00:17:48,346
I was 14 in the pixel
and everything like that.

404
00:17:48,626 --> 00:17:52,726
We really almost need to think of meta
as a top of funnel or many of these

405
00:17:52,726 --> 00:17:55,006
paid social platforms as top of funnel.

406
00:17:55,006 --> 00:17:55,996
People have never heard of us.

407
00:17:55,996 --> 00:17:59,526
They don't know us from Adam and we
need to grab them quickly and they

408
00:17:59,526 --> 00:18:04,356
need to understand quickly what
this is and even there's an implied

409
00:18:04,356 --> 00:18:05,726
sense of why would I want this?

410
00:18:05,746 --> 00:18:09,816
And so for people who there's
probably most people on the planet

411
00:18:10,216 --> 00:18:11,976
would never buy one of these, right?

412
00:18:12,094 --> 00:18:14,714
I've got a dog, or my wife's got
a dog, and I would certainly never

413
00:18:14,754 --> 00:18:16,934
commission it to have it painted, right?

414
00:18:17,164 --> 00:18:19,714
And even if I did, I wouldn't
make some goofy thing and

415
00:18:19,714 --> 00:18:20,914
have him Winston Churchill.

416
00:18:21,244 --> 00:18:25,234
But, there is some subset that
would, and it's that's who we want to

417
00:18:25,234 --> 00:18:27,814
grab, and we want them to understand
immediately, and start checking out,

418
00:18:27,814 --> 00:18:29,384
and start thinking through that process.

419
00:18:29,739 --> 00:18:32,409
And you can imagine some people have
multiple pets and they would get one

420
00:18:32,409 --> 00:18:36,089
for each pet and they would, if we've
got whole galleries of I've got three

421
00:18:36,089 --> 00:18:39,239
to five dogs and all of them have their
own Splendid Beast on the wall and they

422
00:18:39,239 --> 00:18:42,179
send us pictures of all of them sitting
on the couch below their paintings.

423
00:18:42,549 --> 00:18:46,539
So it's that, that immediacy of
why on earth would I want this?

424
00:18:46,549 --> 00:18:47,199
What is it?

425
00:18:47,249 --> 00:18:48,369
And how can I get one?

426
00:18:48,399 --> 00:18:50,089
And it's for the right
people that's going to land.

427
00:18:50,367 --> 00:18:52,807
Matt: yeah, Matt, very good very good.

428
00:18:52,827 --> 00:18:55,527
And I love how you used the
imagery to tell that story and

429
00:18:55,527 --> 00:18:56,727
to grab people's attention.

430
00:18:56,727 --> 00:18:59,437
I assume you did it with video
as well, on the, on Metta.

431
00:19:00,429 --> 00:19:00,859
Eagan: Yeah.

432
00:19:00,939 --> 00:19:01,239
Yeah.

433
00:19:01,239 --> 00:19:01,539
That's good.

434
00:19:01,549 --> 00:19:03,079
And I should say on YouTube as well.

435
00:19:03,079 --> 00:19:06,649
And we had a great, so what we
would do is another thing, talking

436
00:19:06,649 --> 00:19:07,939
through what, how do we get started?

437
00:19:08,139 --> 00:19:11,559
When I took over this business, I went
through and said, again, Ben, previous

438
00:19:11,559 --> 00:19:13,059
owner, what do we got for an email list?

439
00:19:13,059 --> 00:19:13,639
He goes, email.

440
00:19:13,639 --> 00:19:14,049
What's that?

441
00:19:14,309 --> 00:19:18,159
I said, all right, we're going to grab
all the, we're going to, we're going

442
00:19:18,159 --> 00:19:19,969
to grab all the previous customers.

443
00:19:19,979 --> 00:19:22,599
I'm going to put them into at the time,
MailChimp, cause we were just getting

444
00:19:22,599 --> 00:19:24,259
started right late, later on Klaviyo.

445
00:19:24,789 --> 00:19:26,409
And first thing we did was.

446
00:19:26,884 --> 00:19:29,724
You get a free painting if you send
us pictures of your not everybody,

447
00:19:29,724 --> 00:19:32,734
but we're going to do a contest and
you're going to win a free Splendid

448
00:19:32,734 --> 00:19:34,124
Beast's gift card or what have you.

449
00:19:34,454 --> 00:19:37,924
Send us a picture of you with the
pet, with the painting, if possible,

450
00:19:37,924 --> 00:19:38,924
if they're still alive, right?

451
00:19:38,924 --> 00:19:40,864
And that was the whole thing
of people memorializing their

452
00:19:40,864 --> 00:19:41,824
pets and things like that.

453
00:19:41,874 --> 00:19:45,374
Very first thing we did was, new
email list, here's a giveaway, right?

454
00:19:45,384 --> 00:19:46,544
Enter to win a giveaway.

455
00:19:47,044 --> 00:19:50,344
If you like this quirky thing already,
chances are you like it again.

456
00:19:50,344 --> 00:19:53,154
You can give it as a gift or you can
get your other pet painted this way.

457
00:19:53,454 --> 00:19:56,044
And as soon as we did that, we
solicited a bunch of user generated

458
00:19:56,044 --> 00:19:58,894
content that we could then use in
the marketing, put on the site,

459
00:19:58,904 --> 00:20:00,504
put in the ads, put in the emails.

460
00:20:00,954 --> 00:20:03,044
So that's that piece, getting
to that bottom of the funnel.

461
00:20:03,044 --> 00:20:06,374
They already bought from us, they
already have one, why did we disappear?

462
00:20:06,574 --> 00:20:10,014
If, it's like the hardest thing you
know, Matt, is to get a new customer,

463
00:20:10,304 --> 00:20:11,754
it's time to sell them another thing.

464
00:20:11,754 --> 00:20:14,334
It's a gift card for another one,
it's a gift card for someone else,

465
00:20:14,584 --> 00:20:17,264
it's that, credit toward their
next pet painting, or whatever it

466
00:20:17,264 --> 00:20:19,354
is we, we gotta keep them engaged.

467
00:20:19,354 --> 00:20:22,964
And that was a huge win right out
of the gates of, New channel, yes,

468
00:20:22,964 --> 00:20:26,484
but also, we didn't hit them, here's
a sale, come buy things right now.

469
00:20:26,634 --> 00:20:28,874
It was, let's get you guys re engaged.

470
00:20:28,884 --> 00:20:31,114
You bought this weird thing
from this weird company.

471
00:20:31,344 --> 00:20:32,184
Who are you people?

472
00:20:32,184 --> 00:20:33,124
What's your story?

473
00:20:33,244 --> 00:20:35,474
And let's get you something
free, or let's get you entered.

474
00:20:35,474 --> 00:20:39,494
And, what I liked about the giveaway,
too, is, it's at cost for us, it's

475
00:20:39,494 --> 00:20:43,244
whatever it was for one painting, but
that got us, it got people opening our

476
00:20:43,244 --> 00:20:44,634
emails, which they'd never seen before.

477
00:20:44,664 --> 00:20:47,954
Some people hadn't bought a painting
in years, so got our emails opened,

478
00:20:48,124 --> 00:20:50,894
but then also started a conversation
with something free rather than,

479
00:20:50,894 --> 00:20:52,454
Hey, here's a hard sell right away.

480
00:20:52,524 --> 00:20:54,314
So I think that helped us too.

481
00:20:54,727 --> 00:20:58,787
Matt: That's a really powerful tool,
isn't it, in, in terms of how to

482
00:20:59,967 --> 00:21:04,117
Instantly get a whole bunch of user
generated content is just to give

483
00:21:04,117 --> 00:21:08,557
people something for free, or the
possibility of getting something for free.

484
00:21:09,047 --> 00:21:11,817
And something valuable to what
you've done there with another

485
00:21:11,817 --> 00:21:13,067
painting and people will love it.

486
00:21:13,377 --> 00:21:17,657
It's actually I'm the cleverness
in it is The people that you want

487
00:21:17,667 --> 00:21:20,687
to produce the user generated
content are the passionate people.

488
00:21:20,687 --> 00:21:23,267
The passionate people are probably
going to want another painting off you.

489
00:21:23,717 --> 00:21:25,987
And so they're going to, oh, I get
a chance to win, and oh, I didn't

490
00:21:25,987 --> 00:21:28,277
win, I'll blow, I'll buy one anyway.

491
00:21:28,357 --> 00:21:29,197
Because, why not?

492
00:21:30,264 --> 00:21:30,604
Eagan: Yeah.

493
00:21:30,654 --> 00:21:33,294
And again, it's obvious to everybody
watching this or listening to this is,

494
00:21:33,524 --> 00:21:36,094
you get your products at cost, right?

495
00:21:36,409 --> 00:21:38,699
But other people receive the
value over the top of that.

496
00:21:38,709 --> 00:21:40,499
That's why they're giving
you their money in exchange.

497
00:21:40,499 --> 00:21:42,349
What you're selling them
is more valuable than that.

498
00:21:42,349 --> 00:21:45,879
So anytime you can do a giveaway
like that, it's like you're

499
00:21:45,879 --> 00:21:48,699
putting value out into the world
over and above what it costs you.

500
00:21:48,979 --> 00:21:52,249
And then if you can multiply it one
to many with marketing with, you're

501
00:21:52,249 --> 00:21:55,289
getting testimonials, you're getting case
studies, you're getting happy customers,

502
00:21:55,409 --> 00:21:57,279
pictures of their faces with the product.

503
00:21:57,549 --> 00:22:00,629
That's invaluable because you're going to
then multiply that in all your marketing.

504
00:22:01,467 --> 00:22:01,897
Matt: Yeah.

505
00:22:01,897 --> 00:22:05,367
And actually that, that, and there's
something quite clever about that as well.

506
00:22:05,367 --> 00:22:08,117
I always, we've always talked about
this on the show that actually

507
00:22:08,117 --> 00:22:11,157
a gift with purchases offer
the often better than discount.

508
00:22:11,577 --> 00:22:14,257
So I can discount by 10 percent and
if your average order value is a

509
00:22:14,257 --> 00:22:16,267
hundred bucks that's a 10 discount.

510
00:22:16,777 --> 00:22:19,367
Whereas if I can find a gift
with purchase, maybe it costs me

511
00:22:19,367 --> 00:22:23,017
three bucks, but the perceived
value of that is say 27 bucks.

512
00:22:23,477 --> 00:22:23,787
Then.

513
00:22:24,427 --> 00:22:27,157
I'm making more money by doing
the Gift With Purchase because I'm

514
00:22:27,157 --> 00:22:28,687
losing three bucks rather than ten.

515
00:22:29,087 --> 00:22:32,257
But the customer's getting
something of a much higher value.

516
00:22:32,257 --> 00:22:34,877
So instead of getting ten bucks,
they're getting twenty seven, right?

517
00:22:36,034 --> 00:22:37,254
Eagan: Yeah that's spot on.

518
00:22:37,304 --> 00:22:41,234
I'm gonna, if it's okay, man, I'm going
to pull up the presentation a little bit

519
00:22:41,237 --> 00:22:41,877
Matt: Yeah, go for it

520
00:22:42,034 --> 00:22:45,014
Eagan: I did a recent, so I did
a recent workshop basically about

521
00:22:45,024 --> 00:22:47,844
how to create a marketing strategy
that actually drives results.

522
00:22:48,144 --> 00:22:50,074
And you're reminding me of
this slide here I created.

523
00:22:50,074 --> 00:22:51,904
It's just, what does strategy entail?

524
00:22:51,904 --> 00:22:53,284
This is me and feel free.

525
00:22:53,284 --> 00:22:54,744
This is not the final word.

526
00:22:54,744 --> 00:22:55,914
I don't claim to be a guru, Matt.

527
00:22:56,164 --> 00:22:58,034
I'm just, I'm here along with
people trying to learn it.

528
00:22:58,044 --> 00:22:58,924
So we talked about.

529
00:22:59,644 --> 00:23:01,594
Our customer persona,
who are we marketing to?

530
00:23:01,594 --> 00:23:02,304
Who are we serving?

531
00:23:02,684 --> 00:23:04,864
What's the problem or
aspiration addressed?

532
00:23:04,864 --> 00:23:06,194
How are we going to help them, right?

533
00:23:06,494 --> 00:23:10,034
And by the way, with the pet paintings,
just as an example, I know we can talk

534
00:23:10,044 --> 00:23:13,564
about other examples too, but it's what
is what is the problem addressed here?

535
00:23:13,754 --> 00:23:14,594
What is the aspiration?

536
00:23:14,594 --> 00:23:15,734
It's worth thinking through.

537
00:23:16,044 --> 00:23:20,434
And one thing we found was, oftentimes,
a major use of these paintings was

538
00:23:20,744 --> 00:23:22,574
people wanted to memorialize their pet.

539
00:23:22,604 --> 00:23:26,464
In many cases, we had to work from
old photos because the pet's gone

540
00:23:26,484 --> 00:23:27,784
and they want to remember them.

541
00:23:27,784 --> 00:23:29,444
And that's a use case into itself.

542
00:23:29,674 --> 00:23:32,444
Another one is just, we want to
celebrate this weird animal, and

543
00:23:32,444 --> 00:23:34,794
when people come over to a party we
want to see it on the wall, right?

544
00:23:34,794 --> 00:23:35,544
That's a separate use

545
00:23:35,627 --> 00:23:35,937
Matt: Yeah.

546
00:23:36,429 --> 00:23:37,729
Eagan: You're talking about the offer.

547
00:23:37,799 --> 00:23:38,599
What are you selling?

548
00:23:38,599 --> 00:23:40,529
What's the price what's entailed, right?

549
00:23:40,529 --> 00:23:43,319
And I think what you're saying, what
we're agreeing about, Matt, is how

550
00:23:43,319 --> 00:23:46,869
do we make that offer more valuable,
throw in something else, right?

551
00:23:46,979 --> 00:23:48,859
Of here's a way to maintain this.

552
00:23:49,069 --> 00:23:50,419
Here's what else you can do with this.

553
00:23:50,429 --> 00:23:51,289
Here's a free guide.

554
00:23:51,289 --> 00:23:52,149
Here's a free PDF.

555
00:23:52,149 --> 00:23:52,969
Here's a checklist.

556
00:23:53,179 --> 00:23:55,089
Here's a, inexpensive gift on our end.

557
00:23:55,089 --> 00:23:56,549
That's going to add value for you.

558
00:23:56,829 --> 00:24:00,279
Those are all ways to increase that
average order value and increase the

559
00:24:00,279 --> 00:24:02,199
value that your customers receive, right?

560
00:24:02,807 --> 00:24:03,577
Matt: Yeah, absolutely.

561
00:24:04,554 --> 00:24:06,684
Eagan: And then obviously that's
going to affect our messaging.

562
00:24:06,694 --> 00:24:09,684
One of the things I changed on
the website right away was custom

563
00:24:09,694 --> 00:24:11,824
oil paintings of your pet, right?

564
00:24:12,094 --> 00:24:15,234
Before it was just sort of Splendid
Beast, figure this out, right?

565
00:24:15,264 --> 00:24:17,054
Here's an image, good luck, right?

566
00:24:17,184 --> 00:24:18,864
And now it's get really clear.

567
00:24:19,104 --> 00:24:20,594
There's this whole element of competition.

568
00:24:20,594 --> 00:24:22,424
We can or cannot go
into that today, right?

569
00:24:22,724 --> 00:24:25,224
Channels, where are we
going to reach our prospect?

570
00:24:25,224 --> 00:24:26,534
We've talked a little bit about that.

571
00:24:26,734 --> 00:24:27,994
Are they already searching Google?

572
00:24:27,994 --> 00:24:29,654
If so, I would call that middle of funnel.

573
00:24:29,794 --> 00:24:32,834
If they don't even know this exists
and we're running ads top of funnel on

574
00:24:33,054 --> 00:24:35,224
YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, wherever.

575
00:24:35,514 --> 00:24:36,924
That's, I'm calling that top of funnel.

576
00:24:36,924 --> 00:24:37,724
They've never heard of us.

577
00:24:37,744 --> 00:24:39,574
And then bottom of funnel
is they've heard of us.

578
00:24:39,594 --> 00:24:42,294
They've gotten on the email list
and now we're moving them along.

579
00:24:42,354 --> 00:24:44,094
So each one has its place.

580
00:24:44,254 --> 00:24:46,294
I think there's time
and or money to invest.

581
00:24:46,294 --> 00:24:48,744
You mentioned the SEO piece
of the complexity around that.

582
00:24:49,124 --> 00:24:49,824
It's complex.

583
00:24:49,824 --> 00:24:50,424
It's difficult.

584
00:24:50,444 --> 00:24:54,129
It takes time, but if
people are low on budget.

585
00:24:54,279 --> 00:24:56,589
It's like there's always
organic strategies to work on,

586
00:24:56,589 --> 00:24:57,839
but they cost you time, right?

587
00:24:57,889 --> 00:25:00,609
Are you putting in the elbow grease, are
you putting in the sweat equity into your

588
00:25:00,609 --> 00:25:04,309
company with organic, or are you trying
to go faster by running ads, right?

589
00:25:04,309 --> 00:25:05,199
So that's the budget.

590
00:25:05,549 --> 00:25:08,909
There's obviously a measurement piece of
this, but we want to do direct response

591
00:25:08,939 --> 00:25:10,719
marketing and that's the idea there.

592
00:25:10,769 --> 00:25:11,979
I think there's more to this, too.

593
00:25:12,049 --> 00:25:15,899
We could certainly add to this list, but
Matt, I think, who's our customer persona?

594
00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:17,569
What's the problem or aspiration?

595
00:25:17,579 --> 00:25:18,449
What's our offer?

596
00:25:18,739 --> 00:25:20,399
I always, I throw in
what's the copywriting.

597
00:25:20,399 --> 00:25:22,669
We could also say, what's the
creative, we could say what's

598
00:25:22,669 --> 00:25:23,729
going to be in the images.

599
00:25:23,999 --> 00:25:26,189
We could say, how are we
different than the competition?

600
00:25:26,419 --> 00:25:27,859
What are the channels we're
going to reach them at?

601
00:25:27,869 --> 00:25:30,679
We could talk more about the, channels
at different points, top of funnel,

602
00:25:30,869 --> 00:25:33,439
middle of the funnel, bottom of funnel,
and then budget and measurement,

603
00:25:33,439 --> 00:25:34,579
I think we're starting to get.

604
00:25:34,654 --> 00:25:36,794
A strategy once we have these
pieces, what do you think?

605
00:25:38,337 --> 00:25:41,907
Matt: I think it's a very comprehensive
list,  Eagan and I think it's

606
00:25:41,907 --> 00:25:44,822
it's, I love where you start and
I love where you end with that.

607
00:25:44,972 --> 00:25:46,182
And yeah.

608
00:25:46,182 --> 00:25:46,782
I was very good.

609
00:25:46,842 --> 00:25:48,742
Very where did you do that presentation?

610
00:25:49,659 --> 00:25:53,979
Eagan: So I do workshops here in Madison
as well, and I'm often teaching other

611
00:25:53,979 --> 00:25:55,629
marketers or, small business owners.

612
00:25:55,629 --> 00:25:58,889
There's a mix of eCommerce and other,
local businesses and things like that.

613
00:25:58,889 --> 00:26:00,719
And I absolutely love doing it.

614
00:26:00,769 --> 00:26:01,689
I think it's engaging.

615
00:26:01,689 --> 00:26:04,589
We can just be on our computers all
day, crossing our eyes, looking at

616
00:26:04,589 --> 00:26:06,129
Google ads and looking at spreadsheets.

617
00:26:06,549 --> 00:26:09,839
So it's nice to get out and talk with
other marketers and bounce things off

618
00:26:09,839 --> 00:26:13,229
each other and I always learn from them
and I, I, I think they get enough value

619
00:26:13,229 --> 00:26:14,489
out of it where they keep coming back.

620
00:26:14,489 --> 00:26:18,209
So I'm a huge fan of, if you like
teaching, if you like this stuff,

621
00:26:18,479 --> 00:26:21,239
and you're an agency or you're a
consultant I think it's worth checking

622
00:26:21,239 --> 00:26:24,839
out because it's a, it's reinvigorates
you if you like that sort of thing.

623
00:26:24,839 --> 00:26:28,249
So I do the, I do the in person
workshop and then I'll basically, I

624
00:26:28,269 --> 00:26:31,419
turn those into the online courses
that people can buy as well.

625
00:26:31,892 --> 00:26:32,272
Matt: brilliant.

626
00:26:32,752 --> 00:26:35,782
Do you just switch and tack
very slightly at this point.

627
00:26:37,062 --> 00:26:38,672
You do your own podcast.

628
00:26:38,682 --> 00:26:40,092
We mentioned that at
the start of the show.

629
00:26:40,302 --> 00:26:41,242
And that's how we met.

630
00:26:41,282 --> 00:26:43,712
I ended up on your podcast
and I'm very sorry about that.

631
00:26:43,712 --> 00:26:48,522
But we chatted about eCommerce and I've
I obviously connected to your show.

632
00:26:49,442 --> 00:26:51,402
A number of the guests that have
been on your show have been on this

633
00:26:51,402 --> 00:26:54,032
show and a whole bunch of people
whose faces I don't recognize.

634
00:26:54,662 --> 00:26:58,262
One of the reasons I love doing this
podcast, Eagan, and I'm curious if you

635
00:26:58,262 --> 00:27:03,437
can talk to this because Every week we
have an incredible guest come on the

636
00:27:03,437 --> 00:27:08,477
show, and they share their stories, they
share their insights, and I take copious

637
00:27:08,477 --> 00:27:12,457
amounts of notes and go back to the team,
and we have a conversation about how we

638
00:27:12,457 --> 00:27:17,607
can run our eCom businesses better, and
here I am, a bit like you, I run my own

639
00:27:17,607 --> 00:27:21,787
eCommerce business, I have my own agency,
I'm an eCommerce coach, we have eCommerce

640
00:27:21,787 --> 00:27:28,632
cohort, the group I have clients all over
the world, And I still struggle with this

641
00:27:28,662 --> 00:27:34,742
concept of being an expert because an
expert feels like I've achieved something,

642
00:27:34,742 --> 00:27:38,772
whereas actually I, I think I'm more of
a learner, that actually there's still

643
00:27:38,772 --> 00:27:41,832
so much to learn because tech, everything
moves so quickly in this industry.

644
00:27:42,272 --> 00:27:46,572
And part of the way I do my learning is to
do these shows is talk to people like you.

645
00:27:46,573 --> 00:27:47,302
Yeah.

646
00:27:48,404 --> 00:27:49,544
Eagan: Yeah, I think that's right.

647
00:27:50,024 --> 00:27:51,534
I'm a book nerd.

648
00:27:51,534 --> 00:27:52,074
I like books.

649
00:27:52,074 --> 00:27:53,304
I like audio books in particular.

650
00:27:53,304 --> 00:27:55,114
So I go on long walks and
listen to audio books.

651
00:27:55,114 --> 00:27:57,704
And at one point I'd heard on
a podcast or somewhere else.

652
00:27:57,704 --> 00:28:00,904
It's like by the time something
makes it in a book, it's almost

653
00:28:00,904 --> 00:28:02,464
stale this day and age, right?

654
00:28:02,564 --> 00:28:06,874
If it's a, if it's an evergreen thing, if
it's a timeless principle, If it's, the

655
00:28:06,874 --> 00:28:08,524
Stoics and things like that's one thing.

656
00:28:09,654 --> 00:28:12,834
Like to your point of these
platforms are changing all the time.

657
00:28:12,834 --> 00:28:14,224
The economy's changing all the time.

658
00:28:14,284 --> 00:28:15,754
This is a big macro picture.

659
00:28:15,754 --> 00:28:16,994
That's quite complex.

660
00:28:17,864 --> 00:28:21,174
I think talking to people in the
trenches is really how you keep

661
00:28:21,174 --> 00:28:22,454
up to date on what's going on.

662
00:28:22,494 --> 00:28:24,724
And so I had a I had another agency owner.

663
00:28:24,994 --> 00:28:27,864
People always jock me too on my my podcast
are you getting business from that?

664
00:28:27,864 --> 00:28:28,624
What's the deal on this?

665
00:28:28,624 --> 00:28:29,804
Or kind of bottom line on it.

666
00:28:29,804 --> 00:28:32,184
And I'm like, Hey, this is,
we're just over a year into it.

667
00:28:32,224 --> 00:28:33,524
I'm meeting all kinds of great people.

668
00:28:33,524 --> 00:28:36,574
I'm learning a lot or, building
relationships and things like that.

669
00:28:36,834 --> 00:28:39,594
To me, I'm not, I'm like,
that's almost not the point.

670
00:28:39,614 --> 00:28:41,564
Even if we never did, if we weren't.

671
00:28:41,999 --> 00:28:46,729
I think I would keep doing it because
I'm it's engaging in this way that the

672
00:28:46,799 --> 00:28:50,329
other parts of our work are not, and
like you said, we're always picking up

673
00:28:50,369 --> 00:28:54,619
new pieces, new thoughts, new ideas that
are hot off the press, totally fresh

674
00:28:54,619 --> 00:28:57,349
things that people are trying right
now and that are working in the wild.

675
00:28:57,669 --> 00:29:01,549
I don't see what, to me, it's I'm
never not going to have a podcast.

676
00:29:01,569 --> 00:29:02,129
How about you?

677
00:29:02,717 --> 00:29:03,847
Matt: Oh, I'm exactly the same.

678
00:29:03,857 --> 00:29:07,317
I started this we started the
eCommerce podcast in the early days,

679
00:29:07,317 --> 00:29:08,837
it was called the Kuriosity Podcast.

680
00:29:08,837 --> 00:29:11,177
I don't know why we called it actually
I couldn't, it was our agency at the

681
00:29:11,177 --> 00:29:14,467
time was called Curious, spelled with
a K cause we wanted to be quirky.

682
00:29:14,887 --> 00:29:16,637
And so we called it the Kuriosity Podcast.

683
00:29:16,637 --> 00:29:18,797
We ended up changing it to the
eCommerce Podcast cause it just

684
00:29:18,797 --> 00:29:19,907
made an awful lot more sense.

685
00:29:20,017 --> 00:29:25,077
But I remember that, and I tell the
story often, we had an occasional guest

686
00:29:25,097 --> 00:29:27,157
the first sort of 19, 20 episodes.

687
00:29:28,307 --> 00:29:31,187
But the majority of them was just
me talking to a microphone about

688
00:29:31,187 --> 00:29:32,557
what I knew about eCommerce.

689
00:29:33,217 --> 00:29:36,887
And I remember saying to Sadaf
who's the show's producer

690
00:29:36,987 --> 00:29:38,527
and been with me for a while.

691
00:29:38,527 --> 00:29:40,217
She's just an adorable person.

692
00:29:40,677 --> 00:29:43,317
And I remember saying to Sadaf,
I'm just getting bored at the sound

693
00:29:43,317 --> 00:29:45,057
of my own voice, if I'm honest.

694
00:29:46,047 --> 00:29:50,637
I'm just like, I, and so we
started interviewing people.

695
00:29:51,157 --> 00:29:54,207
And, at first, we were like,
how in the world do we get

696
00:29:54,207 --> 00:29:55,327
people to come on the show?

697
00:29:55,377 --> 00:29:58,337
We were hustling, I was calling all the
contacts do you want to come on the show?

698
00:29:58,337 --> 00:29:59,067
They're like, no, not really.

699
00:29:59,247 --> 00:30:00,147
No, come on, you really do.

700
00:30:00,387 --> 00:30:04,427
And we had to really work hard the first
few seasons to get guests on the show.

701
00:30:05,207 --> 00:30:08,437
Whereas now, I think we're a hundred
and, I don't even know, a hundred and

702
00:30:09,042 --> 00:30:14,832
40, 150 episodes, somewhere around
there and we have a wait list as long

703
00:30:14,832 --> 00:30:16,092
as you're armed to come onto the show.

704
00:30:16,122 --> 00:30:17,442
'cause people now want to come on it.

705
00:30:17,472 --> 00:30:21,252
It's one of those things that it's, and
I look at the downloads occasionally.

706
00:30:21,252 --> 00:30:24,282
I don't look at them every week maybe,
if I'm honest with you, every six months.

707
00:30:24,522 --> 00:30:28,062
Unlike e-commerce stats, I don't ever
really pay attention to my podcast stats.

708
00:30:28,062 --> 00:30:28,992
'cause it, it is what it is.

709
00:30:29,262 --> 00:30:32,832
I'm doing this mainly for conversation to
meet interesting people, to learn stuff.

710
00:30:32,832 --> 00:30:36,182
The downloads are they're great, but
they're secondary, if that makes sense.

711
00:30:37,297 --> 00:30:41,787
And I think back now, and I just
think back to some of the people

712
00:30:41,787 --> 00:30:45,647
that we've had on the show, and I
thought, what a learning experience.

713
00:30:45,657 --> 00:30:49,237
So I absolutely would keep doing it, even
if there was no work that came out of

714
00:30:49,237 --> 00:30:52,667
it, and I think, I'm hoping listening,
you'd be able to do it listening,

715
00:30:52,667 --> 00:30:53,627
you'd be able to tell me if I'm wrong.

716
00:30:53,907 --> 00:30:55,087
I'm hoping that comes across.

717
00:30:55,427 --> 00:30:58,347
That actually it's just, it's a
passion project for, one for better

718
00:30:58,347 --> 00:31:01,207
expression rather than a profit project.

719
00:31:01,717 --> 00:31:06,457
But I make money out of it in so many
ways, but it's the passion thing first.

720
00:31:06,947 --> 00:31:09,717
But yes, so like you, I would
keep doing it and I would

721
00:31:09,727 --> 00:31:11,997
definitely enjoy every episode.

722
00:31:12,167 --> 00:31:12,497
Eagan: Yeah.

723
00:31:13,147 --> 00:31:16,717
I think people can tell if you love it,
if you're doing it for the right reasons,

724
00:31:16,717 --> 00:31:19,777
that, that comes through and that's part
of why it's such an intimate medium too,

725
00:31:19,777 --> 00:31:22,957
of just, people can hear your voice,
they hear that authenticity, I think,

726
00:31:23,237 --> 00:31:26,907
as, there's a lot of questions about AI
and what's going to happen and what are

727
00:31:26,907 --> 00:31:30,917
humans going to be doing, and I think
we're on to something here, even though,

728
00:31:31,187 --> 00:31:36,557
AI is going to be doing more and more,
it's like, That, what's the human piece?

729
00:31:36,557 --> 00:31:39,147
I think we've, I think we've got
our thumb on it somewhere here.

730
00:31:39,147 --> 00:31:40,407
So we gotta keep it rocking.

731
00:31:40,585 --> 00:31:41,395
Matt: yeah, absolutely.

732
00:31:41,405 --> 00:31:44,635
Cause for me, it's all about
conversation, meaningful conversation.

733
00:31:44,635 --> 00:31:45,955
That's what I say to people all the time.

734
00:31:45,965 --> 00:31:47,495
It's all about meaningful conversation.

735
00:31:48,155 --> 00:31:50,745
And AI will never be able to
have meaningful conversation.

736
00:31:50,865 --> 00:31:54,555
It may at some point be so clever that
it can predict what you're going to say,

737
00:31:54,555 --> 00:31:58,005
what I'm going to say and write the whole
thing and even create its own podcast.

738
00:31:59,215 --> 00:32:02,785
But it's not a meaningful conversation
as it's not got that humanity behind it.

739
00:32:03,365 --> 00:32:04,615
But yeah, fascinating.

740
00:32:04,795 --> 00:32:05,265
Absolutely.

741
00:32:05,365 --> 00:32:05,405
Wow.

742
00:32:05,605 --> 00:32:06,665
It's interesting.

743
00:32:06,665 --> 00:32:08,385
You've been going a year already.

744
00:32:08,395 --> 00:32:09,155
Happy birthday.

745
00:32:10,237 --> 00:32:10,687
Eagan: Thank you.

746
00:32:10,687 --> 00:32:10,997
Yeah.

747
00:32:10,997 --> 00:32:13,677
It's, I don't know about you, to
me, the logistics of it and stuff

748
00:32:13,697 --> 00:32:14,857
really took a while to get lined up.

749
00:32:14,857 --> 00:32:16,807
And like you said, you've
got to have a helper cause

750
00:32:16,817 --> 00:32:18,007
you're busy running an agency.

751
00:32:18,007 --> 00:32:22,647
So once I got a good production assistant,
I think that's, things moved a lot faster.

752
00:32:23,230 --> 00:32:26,740
Matt: Yeah, and I think there's a
confidence as well, isn't there, and

753
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:29,210
I've been in podcasts since 2012.

754
00:32:29,211 --> 00:32:31,440
In 2012, we did our first ever podcast.

755
00:32:31,450 --> 00:32:33,380
The eCommerce podcast was
not our first podcast.

756
00:32:33,380 --> 00:32:37,280
In fact, our first podcast was
called Jersey FM because our company

757
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:38,530
was called Jersey Beauty Company.

758
00:32:38,530 --> 00:32:40,770
In fact, I think I still
own the domain name jersey.

759
00:32:40,980 --> 00:32:41,440
fm.

760
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:44,270
We obviously don't do the podcast
anymore, that business I sold.

761
00:32:46,105 --> 00:32:48,345
And it was absolutely fascinating.

762
00:32:48,355 --> 00:32:50,825
It was one of those things where
there was just three of us stood

763
00:32:50,825 --> 00:32:54,545
in a room with microphones and
an old fashioned sound desk.

764
00:32:54,895 --> 00:32:57,965
And we just started talking about
things to do with the beauty industry.

765
00:32:58,415 --> 00:33:02,505
And so it actually did
wonders for our business.

766
00:33:02,525 --> 00:33:04,705
And I think if you're listening to
this and you're an eCommerce business

767
00:33:04,705 --> 00:33:05,865
wondering, should I do a podcast?

768
00:33:06,540 --> 00:33:08,280
Honestly, I, you probably should.

769
00:33:08,380 --> 00:33:10,050
I think there's some
strategy to think through.

770
00:33:10,450 --> 00:33:13,490
But I think as a form of
marketing, we totally didn't

771
00:33:13,490 --> 00:33:14,410
plan to talk about this, Eagan.

772
00:33:14,700 --> 00:33:18,510
I appreciate this, but as a form of
marketing, I think it's quite fascinating.

773
00:33:19,030 --> 00:33:22,650
Like you say, deeply intimate, deeply
personal medium of communication.

774
00:33:23,997 --> 00:33:27,167
Eagan: Yeah, I'm very I'm so curious to
know more about that, but it sounds like

775
00:33:27,407 --> 00:33:28,497
every time you've done it, it's worth it.

776
00:33:28,517 --> 00:33:32,507
Is there a, year one, two or three,
is there like a time that people need

777
00:33:32,507 --> 00:33:35,897
to hang on to make sure you make it
this far to really see the results?

778
00:33:35,897 --> 00:33:37,087
How do you think about the results?

779
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:40,450
Matt: I think you have to defi
let's go into this a little bit.

780
00:33:40,460 --> 00:33:41,620
I wear two hats.

781
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:43,980
I have a full disclosure
to everybody listening.

782
00:33:44,020 --> 00:33:44,990
I do have two hats.

783
00:33:44,990 --> 00:33:47,790
One hat is eCommerce and
the other hat is podcasting.

784
00:33:47,910 --> 00:33:49,250
So we have a podcast agency.

785
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:54,160
90 percent of people that do podcasts
stop before the 10th episode.

786
00:33:54,945 --> 00:33:58,675
So if you get past 10 episodes, you're
ahead of 90 percent of podcasts already.

787
00:33:58,915 --> 00:34:02,395
If you get through, I think episode
20, you're ahead of most people.

788
00:34:02,895 --> 00:34:07,215
And with podcasting, the thing is about
consistency and do it as a passion

789
00:34:07,215 --> 00:34:10,785
project rather than focusing on the
download numbers would be my advice.

790
00:34:10,845 --> 00:34:14,025
Because then it's authentic and
people would, will listen into it.

791
00:34:14,025 --> 00:34:16,855
But yeah, I think if you're going to do
it, you've been doing it a year, you've

792
00:34:16,855 --> 00:34:18,365
got in the rhythm, you've got a system.

793
00:34:19,255 --> 00:34:20,595
There's no reason not to keep doing it.

794
00:34:20,695 --> 00:34:21,855
There genuinely isn't.

795
00:34:22,722 --> 00:34:23,112
Eagan: Thank you.

796
00:34:23,112 --> 00:34:25,342
Yeah, we'll be crossing the
hundred episode mark here.

797
00:34:25,632 --> 00:34:27,722
And I know, like you're saying,
I'm just, you hear those things,

798
00:34:27,722 --> 00:34:28,512
you're like, just keep going.

799
00:34:28,512 --> 00:34:29,282
That's the piece.

800
00:34:29,762 --> 00:34:32,452
And it seems like you have
to be, who's ever doing it.

801
00:34:32,462 --> 00:34:33,192
You gotta be genuine.

802
00:34:33,682 --> 00:34:36,512
You have to be genuinely interested
in what you're talking about or

803
00:34:36,962 --> 00:34:39,142
you're not going to stick with it
or that's going to come through.

804
00:34:39,142 --> 00:34:39,422
Right.

805
00:34:39,980 --> 00:34:40,320
Matt: Yeah.

806
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:44,420
And I think actually that's true
for any form of marketing, isn't it?

807
00:34:44,470 --> 00:34:47,540
Bring it back to your,
your system your strategy.

808
00:34:48,050 --> 00:34:51,140
One of the things that you
mentioned was copywriting, right?

809
00:34:51,140 --> 00:34:56,550
So And you go back to the pictures
that you had originally, you

810
00:34:56,550 --> 00:34:58,530
could see the oil painting.

811
00:34:59,030 --> 00:35:03,470
But as soon as you switched it around,
there's a bit of quirkiness, there's

812
00:35:03,470 --> 00:35:07,690
a bit of personality, there's a bit of
passion you can feel in those images.

813
00:35:07,690 --> 00:35:09,320
You can feel that in the copywriting.

814
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:13,930
And this is where I think and Eagan,
maybe you can share your thoughts on this,

815
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:19,410
but this for me is how, what I call the
digital Davids, David and Goliath's story.

816
00:35:19,410 --> 00:35:22,110
It's like, how do I as a digital
David, a small e-commerce

817
00:35:22,115 --> 00:35:23,700
entrepreneur, take on Goliath?

818
00:35:23,700 --> 00:35:24,690
How do I do that?

819
00:35:26,250 --> 00:35:28,620
And I think you do it
with that type of thing.

820
00:35:28,620 --> 00:35:31,770
Amazon, you'll never be Amazon
at the commodity selling.

821
00:35:31,831 --> 00:35:33,430
Because it's massive.

822
00:35:33,460 --> 00:35:35,040
It's had billions to invest in.

823
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:38,540
It's got algorithms that have figured
stuff out way more smarter than I have.

824
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:41,080
And so I'm not going to beat
it on that, but what Amazon

825
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:42,500
can't do is it can't be me.

826
00:35:42,510 --> 00:35:43,740
It can't bring my voice.

827
00:35:43,740 --> 00:35:45,510
It can't bring my story.

828
00:35:45,910 --> 00:35:47,880
If I've got a podcast,
it can't bring that.

829
00:35:48,350 --> 00:35:51,470
There's that whole personality
side of things which you, which

830
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:53,700
get lost very quickly on Amazon.

831
00:35:53,740 --> 00:35:57,580
And I think that passion, that
personality has to come through

832
00:35:57,870 --> 00:36:01,160
in all forms, not just podcasting,
but in all forms of communication.

833
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:04,070
And that's how ultimately you'll beat
Amazon at their own game, I think.

834
00:36:05,272 --> 00:36:05,832
Eagan: Pretty interesting.

835
00:36:05,842 --> 00:36:07,722
We need that human side
in all your marketing.

836
00:36:07,722 --> 00:36:09,812
It sounds like each channel of.

837
00:36:10,282 --> 00:36:13,372
Make sure a real human's touching
that and thinking through, are

838
00:36:13,372 --> 00:36:16,002
we connecting with the humans on
the other side on their device?

839
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:18,210
Matt: Yeah, I think
you have to, don't you?

840
00:36:18,210 --> 00:36:24,625
And I think it's a super powerful
thing because this is one of the,

841
00:36:25,125 --> 00:36:28,965
I know you can go to AI, you can go
into ChatGPT and you can go write me

842
00:36:28,965 --> 00:36:31,265
an Instagram thing about this, right?

843
00:36:31,265 --> 00:36:35,685
Or I can give ChatGPT the transcript
for my conversation and go write

844
00:36:35,685 --> 00:36:39,875
me a blog post, and it's good
because it's quick, but if that's

845
00:36:39,875 --> 00:36:41,815
all I ever do, it's also lazy.

846
00:36:41,845 --> 00:36:43,935
And I think people spot lazy.

847
00:36:44,160 --> 00:36:48,450
Because every blog post will start
sounding like the next one because ChatGPT

848
00:36:48,450 --> 00:36:49,560
is always sounding like the next one.

849
00:36:49,820 --> 00:36:52,720
So I think you have to look at it,
you have to edit it, you have to go

850
00:36:52,720 --> 00:36:56,850
into it, you have to bring your voice,
your personality and go, actually

851
00:36:56,850 --> 00:36:59,950
I wouldn't say that, I would say
this, so I need to swap that out.

852
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:00,650
Yeah I

853
00:37:00,872 --> 00:37:02,882
Eagan: and that was true
before ChatGPT, right?

854
00:37:02,932 --> 00:37:07,452
You could hire inexpensive VAs in the
developing world, you could get cheap blog

855
00:37:07,452 --> 00:37:12,432
posts it's not different in kind from that
it's faster, it's cheaper, but it's the

856
00:37:12,452 --> 00:37:15,182
same piece of, eh, you give it a B, right?

857
00:37:15,182 --> 00:37:17,552
It's and, it's it's 80 out of a hundred.

858
00:37:17,552 --> 00:37:18,112
It's okay.

859
00:37:18,242 --> 00:37:20,862
And it's, I don't ever want to be
on record saying AI is never going

860
00:37:20,862 --> 00:37:21,742
to be able to do this or that.

861
00:37:21,742 --> 00:37:23,812
Like I think it's only going to
keep getting better and better.

862
00:37:23,812 --> 00:37:27,302
So I'm not, I don't ever want to
sound Pollyannish and say here's the

863
00:37:27,302 --> 00:37:28,642
human piece, here's the machine piece.

864
00:37:28,642 --> 00:37:29,612
And I know the difference.

865
00:37:29,612 --> 00:37:32,372
I think it's important to, to use
the new tools and take advantage

866
00:37:32,372 --> 00:37:33,432
of them and see what they can do.

867
00:37:33,482 --> 00:37:34,372
It's interesting with.

868
00:37:34,502 --> 00:37:39,192
Respect to Splendid Beast because I knew,
okay, I saw more and more competition

869
00:37:39,192 --> 00:37:40,922
coming in one before I sold the business.

870
00:37:41,722 --> 00:37:44,612
And some people, some of the competitors
were just, they just printed on canvas.

871
00:37:44,612 --> 00:37:45,582
It's not handmade oil.

872
00:37:45,602 --> 00:37:48,612
So it's like that piece of it's
cheaper, it's faster in that respect.

873
00:37:48,932 --> 00:37:52,662
With this whole piece about GPTs
of not just chat GPT, these custom

874
00:37:52,672 --> 00:37:53,852
ones that can do different things.

875
00:37:54,142 --> 00:37:57,982
There is specifically one now that's
a GPT of make my pet a funny thing.

876
00:37:58,732 --> 00:37:59,482
So it's it is.

877
00:37:59,867 --> 00:38:02,657
It has already happened, it's touching
us, but there's still this element of,

878
00:38:03,757 --> 00:38:08,797
in the same sense that, hipsters use,
typewriters and vinyls coming back, it's

879
00:38:08,847 --> 00:38:09,497
Matt: Yes, so

880
00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:12,099
Eagan: you what's the
artisanal thing going to be?

881
00:38:12,109 --> 00:38:14,929
Maybe it's going to be handmade
oil paintings that AI didn't do.

882
00:38:14,939 --> 00:38:18,549
So it's maybe the down market stuff
is fully automated and humans don't

883
00:38:18,559 --> 00:38:22,689
touch it, but maybe there's still
this kind of like experience economy.

884
00:38:22,689 --> 00:38:26,229
And even again, thinking of what are
the reasons that I buy, maybe I'm

885
00:38:26,229 --> 00:38:29,879
telling, I'm signaling to the other
people in my life that I hire artisans,

886
00:38:29,889 --> 00:38:34,469
that I actually, I'm in the same
sense of, I listen to vinyl, I've got

887
00:38:34,469 --> 00:38:38,599
a typewriter, I write old fashioned
letters on just to, just for whatever

888
00:38:38,599 --> 00:38:40,699
reason, it's like that same sort of.

889
00:38:41,034 --> 00:38:45,084
That same sort of signal is maybe
being sent of, I'm, I pay for

890
00:38:45,084 --> 00:38:46,214
real things from real people.

891
00:38:46,214 --> 00:38:49,154
I think it, it's, the market
could go in that direction too.

892
00:38:49,762 --> 00:38:49,982
Matt: Yeah.

893
00:38:49,982 --> 00:38:52,812
I think you're totally right.

894
00:38:53,572 --> 00:38:56,232
And for me, having this
conversation around AI has been

895
00:38:56,232 --> 00:38:57,502
really fascinating recently.

896
00:38:58,812 --> 00:39:01,112
Because like you say, AI is just
going to get better and better.

897
00:39:01,642 --> 00:39:05,772
And it doesn't seem to be going
anywhere, as in we're not, it's

898
00:39:05,772 --> 00:39:06,842
not like we've all got together.

899
00:39:06,862 --> 00:39:08,952
The governments have gone shut
down everything that is AI.

900
00:39:08,952 --> 00:39:12,492
To be fair, AI has been around since
the eighties and in many ways, but.

901
00:39:13,517 --> 00:39:16,807
One of the things that is becoming
more and more obvious to me in this

902
00:39:16,807 --> 00:39:21,977
whole field is the fact that if you
are mediocre at something that AI

903
00:39:21,997 --> 00:39:23,987
can do, you have got a real problem.

904
00:39:24,537 --> 00:39:28,647
So if you're a mediocre graphic designer
why would I go to you when I can just

905
00:39:28,647 --> 00:39:31,997
go to mid journey and get it to do what
you would do, but it's probably going

906
00:39:31,997 --> 00:39:35,147
to be a little bit better, a little bit
quirkier, and at least give me some ideas.

907
00:39:35,697 --> 00:39:39,397
The way you're going to stand out,
I think is to be a craftsman, to

908
00:39:39,407 --> 00:39:40,967
be that sort of quality person.

909
00:39:40,967 --> 00:39:48,917
I think, and I, having sold very
expensive saunas for a part of my life

910
00:39:48,917 --> 00:39:53,907
spas and steam rooms and things like
that, I became very acutely aware that

911
00:39:53,907 --> 00:39:58,167
actually the mediocre companies were
all competing with amongst themselves

912
00:39:58,837 --> 00:40:00,937
with people that had very little money.

913
00:40:01,267 --> 00:40:05,957
Whereas if you had something
that was really high quality,

914
00:40:06,237 --> 00:40:07,637
something that was craftsmanship.

915
00:40:07,687 --> 00:40:11,027
And I'm thinking, the oil painting
versus a screen printed painting.

916
00:40:11,387 --> 00:40:15,447
There's a reason why I don't, I could have
a poster of the Mona Lisa on the wall, but

917
00:40:15,447 --> 00:40:18,527
actually it's not going to be as good as
having the real thing on the wall, is it?

918
00:40:19,107 --> 00:40:20,427
And so yeah, I think you're right.

919
00:40:20,637 --> 00:40:23,957
And I think this is where, if you
want to know how to succeed in the

920
00:40:23,957 --> 00:40:28,957
world of AI, I think you just get
really good and stop being mediocre.

921
00:40:29,337 --> 00:40:31,907
And I think you'll be really
fascinated by the results.

922
00:40:33,864 --> 00:40:38,164
Eagan: And I wonder if part, maybe
part of your getting really good is

923
00:40:38,174 --> 00:40:39,994
using AI where it's appropriate to.

924
00:40:40,307 --> 00:40:41,107
Matt: Oh, without a doubt.

925
00:40:41,177 --> 00:40:41,887
Knowing how to use

926
00:40:41,924 --> 00:40:42,284
Eagan: it's not.

927
00:40:42,457 --> 00:40:42,727
Matt: Yeah.

928
00:40:43,149 --> 00:40:46,029
Eagan: It's not about being a purist
and saying, I do everything by hand.

929
00:40:46,029 --> 00:40:49,819
It's know when to use the tool, know
when to add the value on the human

930
00:40:49,819 --> 00:40:51,649
side, and be multiplicative that way.

931
00:40:52,277 --> 00:40:52,777
Matt: Yeah, absolutely.

932
00:40:52,787 --> 00:40:56,447
Like I've got a friend who
doesn't do something similar to

933
00:40:56,447 --> 00:40:58,747
the pets, but he paints houses.

934
00:40:59,097 --> 00:41:00,057
Using watercolor paints.

935
00:41:00,387 --> 00:41:05,127
And actually what's really fascinating is
his technique for doing that, because he

936
00:41:05,127 --> 00:41:08,967
gets so many orders, he has to speed up
the process so he has to hand paint them.

937
00:41:09,477 --> 00:41:13,287
So is he spent a lot of time thinking
about how do I make this process faster?

938
00:41:13,287 --> 00:41:16,407
How do I use the tools that I
have yet still create the end

939
00:41:16,407 --> 00:41:18,237
outcome with that craftsmanship?

940
00:41:18,237 --> 00:41:19,437
And it's exactly the same, isn't it?

941
00:41:19,487 --> 00:41:20,867
I have to know how to use ai.

942
00:41:20,867 --> 00:41:23,717
I use ai, we use it a
lot to generate content.

943
00:41:25,402 --> 00:41:30,112
But the content that we put out there
is, having experimented a little bit,

944
00:41:30,312 --> 00:41:34,312
it can't be the final content that
the AI gives me, if that makes sense.

945
00:41:34,732 --> 00:41:36,052
There has to be that tweaking.

946
00:41:36,502 --> 00:41:38,822
So it's part of the process,
but it's not the whole process.

947
00:41:39,869 --> 00:41:41,139
Eagan: It's the first draft, yeah.

948
00:41:41,169 --> 00:41:42,709
And I'm excited for some of these things.

949
00:41:42,889 --> 00:41:45,009
Spin me up a webpage, spin me up a logo.

950
00:41:45,259 --> 00:41:46,659
I'm watching this stuff too, Matt.

951
00:41:47,599 --> 00:41:51,159
I've, I'm yet to say this is
it, this is ready for Showtime.

952
00:41:51,519 --> 00:41:53,779
In many cases I say, that's
interesting, not there yet.

953
00:41:53,799 --> 00:41:57,579
And then I still hire a designer
and pay them because, um, we,

954
00:41:57,629 --> 00:41:58,959
we still need that quality hire.

955
00:41:58,959 --> 00:41:59,139
And

956
00:41:59,342 --> 00:41:59,752
Matt: We do.

957
00:41:59,862 --> 00:42:00,502
We really do.

958
00:42:00,549 --> 00:42:02,509
Eagan: I'll be the first to
switch to AI when it can do it.

959
00:42:02,509 --> 00:42:05,369
But yeah, it's, if it's not
there yet, that's that's part

960
00:42:05,369 --> 00:42:06,199
of what we're bringing to it.

961
00:42:06,249 --> 00:42:08,229
If you've been in the game a long
time what's good, you can see

962
00:42:08,229 --> 00:42:09,509
this as a good one and this isn't.

963
00:42:09,889 --> 00:42:12,709
And some of it's interesting
right now, but I haven't seen it.

964
00:42:13,504 --> 00:42:14,434
Build me a website.

965
00:42:14,434 --> 00:42:15,734
Build me an eCommerce website.

966
00:42:15,784 --> 00:42:16,554
Here's the pictures.

967
00:42:17,314 --> 00:42:18,154
Here's the persona.

968
00:42:18,234 --> 00:42:18,994
Go nuts.

969
00:42:18,994 --> 00:42:20,064
Like it's not there yet.

970
00:42:20,084 --> 00:42:21,314
It will probably get there.

971
00:42:21,314 --> 00:42:23,984
But part of our job is to
watch and see when that is.

972
00:42:24,827 --> 00:42:27,497
Matt: Yeah, but by the time it
gets there, here's my thing, by

973
00:42:27,497 --> 00:42:31,107
the time it gets there, when it can
do that, somebody somewhere who's

974
00:42:31,107 --> 00:42:34,937
a clever chap, who's really good
at what they can do, has moved on.

975
00:42:35,737 --> 00:42:39,047
And so when 100 percent of people
can get something really good over

976
00:42:39,047 --> 00:42:40,687
here from AI for next to nothing.

977
00:42:41,182 --> 00:42:44,332
The guys that stand head and shoulders
above that, who have moved on and

978
00:42:44,342 --> 00:42:47,532
innovated, that's where people like
me are going to go to and go, dude,

979
00:42:47,532 --> 00:42:50,322
you need to do this for me, and I'm
willing to pay you money to do it.

980
00:42:50,382 --> 00:42:52,252
It's that's where I think
it'll be interesting.

981
00:42:53,242 --> 00:42:56,732
The whole AI conversation, totally
unplanned, just like the podcast

982
00:42:56,782 --> 00:43:00,612
conversation, but it's fascinating the
humanity of marketing in a lot of ways.

983
00:43:01,152 --> 00:43:02,782
Eagan, listen, I'm aware of time.

984
00:43:03,052 --> 00:43:06,282
And that we've been chatting for
a wee while now and it's been a

985
00:43:06,282 --> 00:43:07,352
fascinating conversation, man.

986
00:43:07,352 --> 00:43:09,752
Listen, if people want to reach out
to you, if they want to connect with

987
00:43:09,752 --> 00:43:11,122
you, what's the best way to do that?

988
00:43:12,124 --> 00:43:15,704
Eagan: Yeah, check us out on
caravandigital.com you can also

989
00:43:15,724 --> 00:43:16,894
connect with me on LinkedIn.

990
00:43:16,904 --> 00:43:20,484
I'm Eagan Heath, E A G A N H E A T H.

991
00:43:20,754 --> 00:43:22,664
And if anybody wants to listen to
the What's Working in eCommerce

992
00:43:22,664 --> 00:43:26,829
podcast, you can find that on
YouTube or on your podcast player.

993
00:43:26,829 --> 00:43:28,209
So thanks so much for having me on Matt.

994
00:43:28,219 --> 00:43:28,769
It's been great.

995
00:43:28,842 --> 00:43:29,852
Matt: Nah, it's been fun.

996
00:43:29,892 --> 00:43:30,082
Fun.

997
00:43:30,322 --> 00:43:32,222
I'm curious, why Caravan Digital?

998
00:43:33,659 --> 00:43:36,369
Eagan: We were, it was really the
rebrand of figuring out of, we're not

999
00:43:36,369 --> 00:43:37,719
just based here in Madison anymore.

1000
00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:39,469
We're not just a local SEO agency.

1001
00:43:39,779 --> 00:43:40,319
We got to go.

1002
00:43:40,319 --> 00:43:44,169
And so it was really working with my team,
they're young people in their twenties.

1003
00:43:44,169 --> 00:43:45,939
And so we looked at different options.

1004
00:43:45,939 --> 00:43:49,339
It was a whole thing of the first,
the first time it was like, go fast,

1005
00:43:49,339 --> 00:43:50,899
but trying to go far, go together.

1006
00:43:51,169 --> 00:43:53,569
And we went through a whole
process and that was, that's

1007
00:43:53,569 --> 00:43:54,729
what came out the other end of.

1008
00:43:55,034 --> 00:43:56,454
We're, we're globally distributed.

1009
00:43:56,454 --> 00:44:00,104
I've got somebody in India, somebody
in France, and we're all about, digital

1010
00:44:00,104 --> 00:44:04,294
nomads, being digital nomads and traveling
and, taking advantage of what we can now.

1011
00:44:04,294 --> 00:44:07,634
And so it all just fit of we're
on the journey with our clients.

1012
00:44:07,944 --> 00:44:11,004
We're helping them bring their markets to
the, bring their goods to the market, and

1013
00:44:11,004 --> 00:44:13,374
then we're also a global company as well.

1014
00:44:13,374 --> 00:44:14,204
So that's the idea.

1015
00:44:14,532 --> 00:44:15,132
Matt: I love it.

1016
00:44:15,302 --> 00:44:16,072
I love the name.

1017
00:44:16,152 --> 00:44:16,962
I think it's just great.

1018
00:44:17,252 --> 00:44:19,072
I think I'm, I like the name.

1019
00:44:19,142 --> 00:44:22,232
I'm in the process of doing
a van conversion myself.

1020
00:44:22,282 --> 00:44:23,952
And I just, all that kind of stuff.

1021
00:44:23,952 --> 00:44:26,922
I'm just now feel like I'm part of
that community if I'm honest with you.

1022
00:44:27,352 --> 00:44:28,062
But no, it's great.

1023
00:44:28,292 --> 00:44:31,122
Listen, again, thank you so much
for coming on the show, man.

1024
00:44:31,187 --> 00:44:32,317
Super, super appreciate it.

1025
00:44:32,377 --> 00:44:35,857
Love the conversation, love
the spontaneity of it and

1026
00:44:35,857 --> 00:44:36,857
love your insights, man.

1027
00:44:36,887 --> 00:44:41,897
I love what you're doing and thanks
for sharing some great value and

1028
00:44:41,967 --> 00:44:44,397
appreciate you sharing the stories
of the pet business as well.

1029
00:44:45,434 --> 00:44:45,854
Eagan: Right on.

1030
00:44:45,854 --> 00:44:46,614
Thanks so much, Matt.

1031
00:44:47,462 --> 00:44:50,602
Matt: We will link to Eagan's
info in the show notes, which you

1032
00:44:50,602 --> 00:44:54,622
can get along for free with the
transcript at ecommercepodcast.

1033
00:44:54,672 --> 00:44:55,302
net.

1034
00:44:55,642 --> 00:44:57,332
Of course, if you sign up to
the newsletter, it's going to be

1035
00:44:57,332 --> 00:44:58,632
coming straight to your inbox.

1036
00:44:58,932 --> 00:45:01,282
But yeah, all the stuff that links
to Eagan, we'll put in there.

1037
00:45:01,582 --> 00:45:03,212
And what a great conversation.

1038
00:45:03,362 --> 00:45:04,252
Love to love that.

1039
00:45:04,582 --> 00:45:09,602
Also a big shout out to eCommerce Cohort,
which enables you to bring this show.

1040
00:45:09,952 --> 00:45:11,702
Like I say, it's the
membership group that we run.

1041
00:45:11,702 --> 00:45:13,152
If you want to find out more, great.

1042
00:45:13,152 --> 00:45:14,102
We would love to see you in there.

1043
00:45:14,102 --> 00:45:14,232
eCommercecohort.

1044
00:45:15,512 --> 00:45:15,812
com.

1045
00:45:16,202 --> 00:45:17,052
Prices start at just 14.

1046
00:45:17,052 --> 00:45:19,592
99 a month, but obviously no pressure.

1047
00:45:19,592 --> 00:45:22,347
Just keep turning up to the
eCommerce Podcast, listening

1048
00:45:22,347 --> 00:45:23,692
to these great conversations.

1049
00:45:23,952 --> 00:45:26,382
Follow the podcast wherever
you get your podcast from.

1050
00:45:26,742 --> 00:45:28,222
Because why would you not want to?

1051
00:45:28,252 --> 00:45:28,962
It's just.

1052
00:45:29,922 --> 00:45:32,562
It's a bit posh, isn't it, for
me to say that maybe, but I don't

1053
00:45:32,562 --> 00:45:34,492
know, I don't understand why
people wouldn't want to hear it.

1054
00:45:34,712 --> 00:45:39,092
Anyway, just in case no one has told you
yet today, let me tell you, let me be

1055
00:45:39,092 --> 00:45:43,992
the first to tell you, you are awesome,
yes you are, credit awesome, it's just

1056
00:45:43,992 --> 00:45:47,757
a burden you have to bear, Eagan's
got to bear it, I've got to bear it.

1057
00:45:47,977 --> 00:45:49,027
You've got to bear it as well.

1058
00:45:49,327 --> 00:45:52,707
Now the eCommerce Podcast
is produced by Aurion Media.

1059
00:45:52,707 --> 00:45:56,287
You can find our entire archive of
episodes on your favorite podcast app.

1060
00:45:56,667 --> 00:46:00,627
The amazing team that makes this
show possible is the fantastic

1061
00:46:00,637 --> 00:46:02,637
Sadaf Beynon and Tanya Hutsuliak.

1062
00:46:02,657 --> 00:46:04,047
Theme song was written by Josh Edmundson.

1063
00:46:04,977 --> 00:46:09,362
And as I said, Everything is on
the website, ecommercepodcast.

1064
00:46:09,392 --> 00:46:10,672
net, if you want to know more.

1065
00:46:11,062 --> 00:46:12,332
So that's it from me.

1066
00:46:12,412 --> 00:46:13,442
That's it from me again.

1067
00:46:13,442 --> 00:46:14,842
Thank you so much for joining us.

1068
00:46:15,142 --> 00:46:17,182
Have a fantastic week
wherever you are in the world.

1069
00:46:17,492 --> 00:46:18,482
I'll see you next time.

1070
00:46:18,642 --> 00:46:19,222
Bye for now.