Welcome to the VP Life Podcast, the show where we bring you actionable

health advice from leading minds.

I'm your host, Rob.

My guest today is Andrew McLaughlin, a transformational coach who works with

aspiring individuals and entrepreneurs to help them realize their full potential.

Expect to learn what transformational coaching really is, how Andrew takes

people from zero to hero, and maybe most controversially, Andrew's take

on psychedelics and whether they have a place in mindset change or not.

Now, on to the conversation with Andrew McLaughlin.

Good morning, Andrew, and thank you for joining us on the podcast today.

I'm looking forward to today's conversation on mindset and growth.

First though, while I wait for the caffeine to kick in and the blood to

find its way into my fingertips, would you mind providing us with Just a, just

an introduction, the usual, who you are, what you do and all that great stuff.

It's awesome to have a bit of an origin story.

Good morning, Rob.

Thank you for, for having me, for inviting me on and to share what I

see and yeah, to hopefully add a bit of value here this morning to your,

to your community, to your listeners.

Um, but yeah, I mean, straight in, I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm a

being that's doing the best.

he can, uh, with a thinking that looks real, I suppose.

So like I said, I want, I want to be as authentic as I can and

express what comes through me.

But I mean, in terms of an origin story, um, I, I, I'm Welsh, live in

Wales, uh, stereotypical, um, sort of guy from the valleys who You know, I

don't want to say it came from nothing, but I mean, you know, it wasn't pot

noodles and tuna for all our early life.

But, you know, we, we've got a culture whereby we, we, we work hard for things

and, and there's a space for that in life.

Um, so I think that set the ground for.

Um, me to be an achiever, but like, I, I, I always thought that life was out

there on the other side of something.

Um, and, and listen, that, that, that made for a good life, right?

Um, and, and there were some instances and, and circumstances early on in

life for me, um, to put a, like, a catch all statement on it that,

that, that give me some sort of worldview that life isn't safe.

Like I felt insecure.

I felt unsafe.

And that, that just sort of run me into my teens, uh, and twenties where

I had to come back at the world.

So, like I said, it got me good in business, got me good in sport.

I played, played rugby at, at, at, at a nice level year locally.

Um, but I wasn't satisfied, right?

I was, uh, clearly, um, uh, an overachiever, a workaholic, a thinkaholic.

Uh, and like I said, uh, from outside looking in to, to what, like what

I call the circumstantial world, it's like, oh, he's doing well.

Um, but, but there was always that feeling that I wasn't truly fulfilled.

So, uh, just a snapshot, um, you know, couple of of businesses.

I mean, just, just fortunate to be involved with great minds.

Um, you know, certainly since, uh, the, the, uh, 2000, um, the

millennium, um, year I, I got into an industry in financial services and.

Just, just got myself as strong, uh, as I can, as what I mean by that is

like in terms of study and in terms of, um, just, just curiosity, right.

And, um, fortunate enough to build a business, which we still got, I

mean, my involvement with our business is now more, uh, training, guiding,

teaching, mentoring, coaching, leadership team, and key executives.

Uh, and that's all by design, right?

That's all by creation.

Um, and.

We lead on to, um, my, my current guys, which is, um, transformational coaching.

Um, that's been, I mean, I've coached all my life, right?

There's something that's inside of me that I like being with people.

I like seeing people, I like getting what's going on for them.

So even though my coaching career sort of started in 2018, um, I see it

that I've been coaching way longer, I've been space holding, caregiving

for, for, um, for way longer than perhaps I did recognize at one point.

So I mean, to, to, to summarize, like I, I don't want to be hypnotizing anyone too

much into, into my story, but it was a case of this, this evolution created, uh,

a guy that was curious but was clearly exhausted, um, and took, um, what I call

a two by four life, give me just a little something around the chops in 2016,

um, which woke me up to, um, a deeper curiosity, uh, which we will speak to.

Um, so yeah, that's, that's sort of the origin story.

Um, And yeah, it's, it's, it's, um, it's a, it's a journey.

It's a beautiful journey.

And for the first time in my life, I'm not trying to get anywhere.

And again, we'll cover some ground on that.

Yeah.

Um, so yeah, I suppose it's, it's, um, I'm relating,

relating to life, relating to people.

And I'd see it that I've got something to give to help

people become more experienced.

a deeper meaning for life.

Yeah, and I think I can attest to that having met you personally twice

now at the Health Optimization Summit.

You just air this, um, this desire to give and this desire to teach, which definitely

comes, uh, through very strongly.

Um, before we get into the meat and potatoes of the, of the conversation

today, do you think that, well, I'm sure you do, But do you think that these sort

of formative years sort of really helped to develop your, your transformational

coaching philosophy going forwards?

Yeah, indeed.

You, you, you mentioned philosophy there.

My philosophy and my coaching is every day is an opportunity to

create a living masterpiece, right?

It's an, it's, it's a new day.

Um, and I, and I'm totally not in the cliche sense of the saying, but, but

yeah,

when we cover.

as best I can, uh, to articulate is how reality works.

Then it changes our worldview, right?

Our playbook or our blueprint.

But yeah, I think there was a point in my, certainly in my coaching

career, where, whereby then really you've had this subjective experience

that's gone on for you and that can inform, um, the latter part of your

life or mid point of your life.

And.

And that makes sense to me, right?

So we've, we've not only got this, this sort of primitive part of us

that is looking to survive and evolve.

So it shows on the surface level, it's like a need for certainty or security.

We've, we've got life experiences, right?

Because we get knocks, we get bumps, we get pain.

Uh, and I think we've got a massive misunderstanding

globally of how life works.

So if you check trifecta, it makes us, uh, needing to, to, to build.

On of like shaky foundations and I need to come back at the world.

And, and that's innocent.

'cause that was me, uh, you know, working on myself for over a decade.

And I was like, when is all this gonna kick in?

Um, and I, and, and, and, and I quote in quotes and expressions.

'cause words are a, both a lock and a key for me.

Um, and it's so you can get a feel for people in their life.

Uh, but Sydney Banks, who is a, a, a Scottish welder who had an

enlightenment experience and he said something, uh, a quote that I argued.

a couple of years ago, and that, that going back in, in your past to work on

negative memories is like attempting to blow out an electric light bulb.

And that was an insight moment for me because I was like, wow, for the

most of my life I was always in the domain of what I call, you know,

psychological time, past and future.

Either always scared of what could happen in the future or

looking to rewrite or beat myself up about my past or my history.

And, and that quote just pierced me.

I was like, wow, all my life that's been me.

That was me in my infancy and my coaching careers.

I was always looking to take people back to, well, what's created you?

Like what has happened there?

And I'm not saying that that doesn't work for some people.

Like you can go back and like sort of rewrite that, reshape it, reframe it,

which is a little bit of the NLP world.

But now what I see that it's, we can acknowledge it.

We can accept it.

But it's not necessary.

So to answer your question, to come full loop, I think yes, I think

there's definitely something in those experiences, but what's going on now

for us is, um, is, is something where I speak is a little bit different.

It's not the past being regurgitated.

It's our thinking about the past.

Uh, and I'd like to explore that in our, in our time together today.

So I don't know if that answers your question right on.

Um, so it's, it's, it's a yes, it does, but I don't necessarily

think that's what we're up against.

I think it's a way simpler.

No, I mean, it definitely does.

And I, it's probably the perfect segue to sort of move forwards

into, I suppose, fundamentally what transformational coaching is.

Uh, I've got a lot of questions thereafter, but at a high level,

what is transformational coaching?

What is it that you do on the day to day when working with people?

It's a great question.

And I mean, if you look at it like transformational as word transform,

Like we are form, we are created.

Anything we're seeing here, you and I, it's form.

It's not formless, it's created from a formless energy, like a seed of

thought, but it's created, it's form.

So for us to transcend, for us to trance that form, we need

what I'd call like fresh and new.

thinking.

We need the unknown.

Most people are in a perpetual state of, of just sort of regurgitating the known

to try and get them out of a, of a certain situation or try and create something

new for themselves, any life arena.

Um, and, and we play fall out there.

Um, and I don't think we, we really do ourselves.

a service year, uh, it's only until we can, we can sell, slow down and

allow fresh and new thinking to come.

It's what Albert Einstein said, you know, I think 99 times and I find nothing.

I start by swimming a sea of silence and the truth comes to me.

So it's that, it's that I think we're in the domain of the known.

Uh, and a lot of people coach from this and it's like, well, I've got a way

of doing this for you to break free or for you to cultivate or for you

to attract, um, and that's beautiful.

Um, but I think again, there's a, there's a simpler way of doing

it and that is allowing people to settle for them to see clearly again.

So that's, that's transforming.

It's, it's trans Port in the form, another way of saying it, but if I

can give you a summary of what I would call, like, if I was to say, there's,

there's a couple of levels to coaching.

Uh, I coach at all levels because everyone's a fingerprint.

Everyone's got a unique history, things going on from what they

want to create, uh, and how they, they, they think that life happens.

Uh, but at the most basic level, I think that that's like

coaching a certain situation.

Right.

So when I started out coaching in the health space, it was about,

well, how do I become healthy?

How do I optimize my, my hormonal, um, health?

Uh, how do I lean up?

Indeed?

How do I put on muscle?

That type of stuff.

So it's a situation, let's call it that.

Um, or it, it may be, um, like, It could be something like public

speaking, like a lot of people are.

So at that level, you work with someone on a specific situation.

So for example, like public speaking, it could be taking them from a

place of, of fear to confidence.

So you could speak to them about how they're using their, their pattern of

focus, their physiology, their language.

You can get them in a, an empowered state to deliver that, that public, uh, talk.

Uh, and then hopefully they deliver it.

Um, and then they're on into their life.

Right.

So it's an, it's outcome focused, you getting them from inaction to action, fear

to, to some sort of state of confidence.

And that's amazing.

Right.

I mean, at least hopefully there's some sort of result there, but

then we're into our familiar world.

So then that takes us then to what I call like a second level of coaching.

And that is, well, great.

You've helped me with, uh, my fear around public speaking, but

I'm constantly frustrated with.

My intimate partner, for example, so you can then talk to them at this level.

And this involves like some sort of skill building or recognizing some patterns.

And that could be, well, are you meeting your partner's needs?

Unconditionally?

Are you holding space for them to be seen, to be heard, to be understood?

Um, and then that hopefully will, will not only I've gotten them to be able to

public speak, but also to have a better experience in their relationships, but

not much changes out there, but they've got better at a certain situation.

And then they've got better at a certain life area.

And then the, the, what I would call like the elite coaching

level is transformation.

And that is a conversation about.

Seeing a different world, being in a different world, looking through new

eyes, and that is giving rise to the conversation around, well, what do cause

the states of fear and frustration and That is what I would class as the epitome

of transformational coaching so that not much can change in a Circumstantial world,

but everything looks completely different.

So not much changes, but everything is different if I make sense So that's if

I'm to just put a blanket on it all this there's a couple of levels and listen

sometimes I'm I am helping people with with the the moment a moment state and Um,

if, if I can get them into some sort of action, sometimes I am looking at skills,

certainly in intimate relationships, or even if they're dealing with difficult

people in their business or their career.

Um, so it's, it's sort of pivoting between, but, but the more I stay

in transformational coaching, it's like you've just got to, as a

metaphor, just, just wake someone up as a little gentle touch as to,

well, what's truly going on here.

is actually happening from inside of you.

Okay.

So it's, it's almost like you're unpeeling an onion to an extent.

You're sort of starting with one issue and establishing sort of further issues

as they arise, when you sort of dealt with the first issue as they presented

it to you, if that makes sense.

So somebody comes to you, uh, with a fear of say public speaking or

trying to improve public speaking.

Um, the idea being that you would then work through that.

and help them to achieve that goal with that.

And then they are able to, yeah, work through that, but essentially that then

unearths another set of problems or challenges or is that the way is that

would that be a sort of a decent summary overall, just in terms of, and then

helping them through that until they ultimately reach their, um, their, their

epitome of what they deem to be success.

Um, it's, would that sort of be to tie a bow in it, um, sort of a decent way

of just establishing the whole concept?

Indeed.

I know we try to articulate something that is a felt energy, but I mean, it's,

it's for me, I'm always at that, that, that top level, uh, is the way I see.

So when I'm with someone is that's what I'm filtering through.

That's my sort of grounding.

That's my worldview, if you like.

Uh, and I, I use.

language as a filter for that.

Um, so I, I wouldn't say, and I'm not necessarily saying this is your question,

but I'm going to take someone through the levels to actually get them to like

level three so they, they break through.

I, I, I'm here and this is what I want to wake them up to like the, these levels.

And again, I, I just want to say that I'm not demonizing anything is the, you

know, I, I caught from our space from time to time and that was my entirety of my

coaching practice at a certain time point.

Um, but it's a little bit like rearranging imaginary furniture.

It's, it's, it's at those levels.

It's a little bit made up.

It's like we are trying to get better at a limited version of ourself.

Um, which can get people, like I said, from inaction to some sort of action.

Um, so yeah, to get a feel for it, it could Constantina, it

could go through until someone really wakes up to who they are.

Um, I sometimes use, um, this, this is a quick story, but if, if Mother

Teresa sent me a request for coaching.

Um, and I, I got it through my intake process and we, we agreed

and, um, she came into me and she was suffering with some sort of

amnesia and some sort of memory loss.

Uh, but she wanted to work with me on, well, how can I put more love and care

and compassion out there into the world?

Then would I really take it through level one, level two coaching to

really get her, uh, embedded in this?

Oh, would I spend my time waking her up to, to who she truly is?

And for me, it would, it would certainly be the latter that that

certainly is what makes sense to me.

So yeah, it's um, that, that, that one usually lands.

Dynamic process.

Yeah.

Indeed.

But it's getting a feel, right?

We're all doing the best with our, our projection of what's looking really.

real to us and we're behaving accordingly and it's only until you can make

that visible to people that they can actually see the fleeting nature of it

because you know everyone's behavior makes sense to them so try taking that

behavior off someone who's, you know, You know, the, the behavior might be

destructive, disempowering, might be reactive to something, um, but that's

meeting, um, something at some level.

Like sometimes I suggest it's designed to protect, prevent, provide.

So you try taking that behavior off someone and they're

going to wrestle for it.

They're going to fight for it.

But if you can show them an entirely new world.

Then that behavior that, that has gotten problematic dissipates.

Fair enough.

Do you find that having obviously worked with a lot of people now

that there's a constant, there's a constant type of challenge or do,

do people generally face the same sorts of trials and tribulations?

Um, is there sort of a, a pattern that you can identify with that most

people are struggling to, to overcome in terms of their breakthrough moment?

Absolutely, Robert.

And for me, Uh, what I see, and this has been most impactful in my life, uh, with

me, my family, my businesses in any life arena really, and with those that I, that

I go on a journey with and, and, you know, with clients is, is the misunderstanding

of what creates their experience.

Like that alone can change that, that as a, as again, as a.

As a metaphor, like if the cage is, is made of thought, then

I'm going to just show them that the cage is not real, right?

I'm going to show them that another metaphor that there is a life beyond

the prison bars that they're behind.

But that is a misunderstanding globally.

of where our experience comes from, meaning that most people innocently,

because this is reinforced through childhood, through certain, you

know, our schooling is set up, our life is set up, culture, society,

is that life goes on out there.

And I take that in and I feel accordingly.

So something is happening in my circumstantial world, there's

an event situation, there's a past, there's a future, there's

a person, there's an event.

And that is making me feel what I'm currently feeling.

And that's the biggest illusion we're all hypnotized into.

That's the biggest trick of the mind.

The mind wants to put what's going on on a certain event, what it's seeing.

But that, what we are seeing is not giving us that feeling.

We're feeling our thinking and not the world out there.

So that, that, that for me, when somebody, like we can move from the

head, like we, we can have a, well, I know that at some level, because we,

we, some wisdom does touch us, but it's until we really truly understand that.

That's when the system, like I sometimes refer to as the taps of life, like

we've got the taps the wrong way around.

When we realize then, you know, things like, well, I, I, I, I want to evaluate

my need structure, or I want to, uh, look up what I value in life, or I

want to remove my limiting beliefs, or I want a different perspective.

All that stuff starts to fall away because we realize that life works one way.

Um, and it dampens a lot of flames for us in life.

So it's a great question and I think that massive misunderstanding

is globally that we're feeling something other than our thinking.

Okay, this would probably be a pretty decent segue to discussing

Maslow and his hierarchy of needs.

What do you think of his, uh, His framework, uh, for human self

actualization, do you think that it fits, does it fit into your

paradigm when working with people or are there sort of aspects of that

particular pyramid that are missing?

Uh, do you find it a sort of reasonable model to utilize for most people?

Indeed, not overly familiar with it, but I think there's

a base sense of survival in there.

So we need to eat, we need to drink, we need to cater for our family and

have shelter and things like that.

I think that's the, like the base of that, that pyramid.

So I'm not overly familiar with it, but that makes sense to me, right?

We, we, we want to evolve.

We want to make sure that our tribe is protected and that we eat so

we can look after ourselves and we can then go on to serve others.

So it does, but the, the needs that I'm referring to are, uh, uh, emotional and

That is, is when I'm speaking to someone, or whoever I'm in contact with, doesn't

need to be a client, is I'm getting a feel for the, for their, uh, their

grounding, how they're seeing life.

Uh, and I see it as these sort of, um, three areas.

There's a circumstantial world, it's our experiential world, which is our

psychology, and then it's the core, the essence of who we truly are.

I'm brushing people back into that.

essence of who they truly are, like the Mother, Mother Teresa story.

Um, but on, on the level, if we want to create an extraordinary psychology,

which again is a little bit like, and I don't want to be too, um, dismissive

of this, uh, but it is like, uh, rearranging imaginary furniture.

But at that level, like get, getting us, getting it.

a nice need structure.

So it's not the Maslow, uh, hierarchy of like base and survival needs,

but it's the emotional needs.

And there's only six.

And that is, that is certainty, uncertainty, significance,

love, and connection.

Growth and contribution.

And that's what I filter for when I'm, when I'm with a client, because that's the

language that we use to go back and forth.

Like if someone is, when they express what life's about, what

relationships are, how much is a long time, how much is a short time.

And you can get a real feel through the use of language.

And I got to be honest, Rob, I don't think I've ever worked with

anyone whereby at the surface level that the need for certainty and

significance features somewhere.

It's what's driving them.

So again, I'm, I'm, I think I'm rambling a little bit here.

That's fine.

On the thread with your hierarchy of needs, the mouth, I'm not too

familiar with that model, but the familiarity I have with it at the

domain of psychology is how it shows in our use of language and what it is.

and how it is we seem to be presenting in the world.

And, and there's nothing wrong with certainty and significance.

I know I'm singling out those two, but because I work with C suite

executives and achievers, then you tend to find that it's there.

And there's nothing wrong with that.

Like certainty, which is another word is security.

There's some sort of surety.

You need to know you want to avoid that pain and get, get some sort

of sense of comfort, I suppose.

But that could be from reaction or it could be creative.

Right?

Like a reaction is I need to control everything.

I need to control people, circumstances, event, what's going on out there.

Cause the illusion is they think that they're going to feel something from

at least the attempt of doing that.

And for significance, a reaction, uh, or reactionary way to, to attempt to meet

your need for significance could be that.

You know, I'm out to destroy.

I'm out to empower.

I'm unique.

I'm important.

I am the best.

Again, not, not necessarily vilifying it.

Um, but it doesn't really make for a nice life.

It's, um, it's could make for an unfulfilling life because we'll never

get enough of what we don't really need.

They are what perhaps the Buddha would call.

Hungry ghosts in that, you know, it doesn't matter how much we go after

certainty and significance using a reactionary model, that more of

that stuff will never be enough.

Um, and it's not for everyone.

So some people, there is contribution, the features.

Uh, so if somebody's like surface level needs are more from, from

sort of love, connection and contribution, possibly not a client.

Yeah.

Now, of course, I'd love to touch on a sort of novelty in, in, in a second

and how you sort of work on that with people, but, uh, before we sort of move

on to that, I just want to sort of have a quick discussion about trauma, if

that's something you're comfortable with.

Uh, I recently had a conversation with Dr. Johnny Hernstein, who's

a, uh, a doctor just outside of.

Oxford, if he listens to this, I apologize if I got that wrong, Johnny.

But yeah, Johnny, uh, works with a lot of people who have suffered various

forms of trauma, whether it's adverse childhood events or chronic or acute PTSD.

Do you find that, uh, you sort of work with a lot of people who are And again, I

think this is very, um, this is very much the norm in A type personalities again.

But a lot of these people, at least in my experience anyway, have suffered

some form of trauma in their lives.

And trauma is obviously relative.

I think my father put it perfectly when he said everybody's got

their own version of hell.

And what can be traumatic to somebody is In most, in most times is, well,

not always, but doesn't have to always be traumatic to another person.

Uh, but do you find when working with people that you're always,

that you're normally unearthing some form of trauma along the way?

Does that come up?

It does.

And I want to be sensitive, right?

Because like, it's just.

tangly cord that exists on a spectrum.

And what do we mean by that?

Well, yeah, me, me too.

You know, I can look at past and, and think trauma that, you know, if we could

say it is, it's a container, then, you know, my, my, my mom and dad separated.

And I just remember a really specific event where mom was, was out working.

Um, and, and, and so was dad, but the, the, the, didn't spend

time together in the home.

And it was, I just remember a period of my, my early childhood

whereby mom was working.

I remember dad leaving the house one day and I thought, wow, I'm, I'm alone, right?

I'm not enough.

I'm alone.

Uh, dad was just taking his car on the back, right?

That, that, that was as simple as it was, but I downloaded a self

of, uh, or sense of inadequacy.

Um, but that's trauma, right?

And they could be the, you know, the, the unthinkable that happens.

So I want to be sensitive to everyone, but we've all gotten our bumps.

We've all gotten our pain and that could, that could exist

on this side or this side.

But to really come out of it is yeah, work with, um, with

plenty of clients with PTSD.

Um, but what you, what you, what you touched on is that.

Relativity, that's subjectivity, um, because the one, the, the, the,

the sense of freedom that exists beyond, well, what happened, happened.

It.

I, it didn't happen any, it didn't happen any other way.

'cause it, it didn't Right.

It, it happened because it happened.

Then that sense of acceptance for that is, is the, is the doorway to some

sort of freedom, a doorway to some sort of living masterpiece because,

you know, speaking with someone, PTSD and, and an holding in space for them,

that their true essence, their true self is, is that they're not broken.

I'm waking them up to that.

It's only at the level of, like, what I call the domain of psychology, their

idea of themselves, as being impacted, as being whatever is going on for them.

Then, you know, there's a part of them that can't be diminished, that can't

be enhanced or sh or, or It can't shine any brighter than to actually feel

the true essence of who we truly are.

Then that helps people see the ephemeral, the fleeting nature that I, I perhaps

don't need to be spending so much time in my, my memory of the past.

Um, because what is, is and what isn't, isn't without waxing too spiritual.

Uh, but that's no longer on our plate.

Like, you know, try eating yesterday's dinner today.

Yeah, we, we try our best and we try eating tomorrow's dinner today, but

we can only eat what's in front of us.

You know, it's, it's a nice metaphor because life is unfolding as it is.

You know, the past and the future are complete mind made illusions.

We never, we've never been in our past and we'll never be in our future.

Yeah, and there's um, There's, there's a, there's a, for me at least,

there's a sense of freedom in that.

So yes, deal, deal with many people and it, and it ranges on a continuum

of like this happened or even that something that's going on more locally

with an intimate relationship or, or in their business or in their finances.

Uh, and that could be perpetuated and has gone on over time, but

it's a sense of trauma, right?

It's, it's rooted in, I am not enough, uh, or I am not whatever it is for people.

And for me at the surface level that it, that, that can breed.

a sense of significance, certainly, certainly insignificance, maybe.

So it's, it's, it's only until I feel that we can show them that that's just

potentially them getting an attempt at conditioning a better version of

their limited self, or they can open the door to the essence of all the Who

they truly, who they deeply are always, always have been, always will be.

Sorry, I'm just mulling over that for a second.

Do you not think, and, and of course, I'm someone who's essentially a biologist.

Do you not think Some people just are, are stuck in, in the past

as a result of their physiology.

Uh, I mean, I'm looking, I look at it very much through that lens and, and

I'm, I'm not disagreeing with you in the slightest, but the way I look at it,

people who are oftentimes very traumatized have almost physiological adaptations

to that trauma that can oftentimes then limit their progression going forwards.

And I suppose that's sort of.

A decent segue into a question I was going to ask a bit later on, but do you ever

think that there's a, or do you find that there's a, a point at which people have

to start dealing with underlying health issues in order to make progression, uh,

with their psychology, with their goals?

Do you find, or can that generally be worked around, uh, I mean, again, if

somebody has Is, is hypothyroid, or is low testosterone, or has an underlying

condition, um, do you find that by working with, um, alongside, I mean, you mentioned

earlier that you previously worked with people from a health perspective and

improving their, their health metrics, do you find working with, is, is, is,

is Um, if I'm making sense that putting these two, uh, practices together sort

of yields more of a result of one plus one equals three sort of approach, does

that ever sort of come into it at all?

Uh, your, your philosophy again?

Absolutely.

I want you to ask the, the, the question again, because what I

want to address is the, the, the storing of something in our body.

Um, because.

You know, I'll give you an example that a client I work with recently,

you know, um, for, for him is, his worldview, his playbook for

life is that he's not safe, right?

Now, this is a guy that's, that's, that's achieved extraordinary things,

what I call in his circumstantial world, but it's deep rooted in lack, right?

In scarcity, that, that his world is not safe.

And, and that came from something in his past.

It's also primitive, the need for certainty.

Um, and it's a misunderstanding of how life works and what, what we.

or how the conversation went was, well, that, you know, once we made the invisible

visible, right, that we made that, that it was a, a deep rooted, well, I am not safe.

Then when I asked them, well, where does that reside in your body?

Like that, that sense of I am not safe.

Like, can you tell me where that is now?

Instantly went to the gut.

And I'm like, okay, well, what I mean by that is if we did surgery, could we

pull out something with a barcode on that's there with, with, I am not safe.

And.

You know, there's, there's an agreement that's made, you know, it's, it's

validity, uh, it's verifying well, actually, if it doesn't exist as something

we can see, then are you open to the possibility that it's no longer a truth?

Not saying what went on wasn't real, didn't happen, but are you open to the

possibility that, that I am not safe?

is not part of your physical vessel.

And then the conversation went on to, well, yes, it's not, it's in my mind.

That's a different conversation because anything in mind is imagination.

Anything in mind is likely thought created.

So again, not saying nothing happened.

Right?

How it's being felt now in the body is we're giving life to it through

the power of thought, and that over time will downregulate our physiology.

James Allen wrote in the book, As a Man Thinketh, a thought can kill

a man as speedily as a bullet.

And we live in that perpetual state of, of resistance, of what

happened shouldn't have happened.

So that, I want to speak to the paradigm of like, uh, uh, let's call it mind

can downregulate our physiology.

And we stay in that perpetual state of trying to get away from the past

that we've not accepted, or didn't want, or shouldn't have happened.

Is, I, I feel the best I can.

can downregulate our physiology and we don't feel that great.

So I, I just wanted to close the loop on that because what I'm not saying,

I want to be, you know, come from love and compassion for everyone.

We've all got, got things going on for us.

We've all got a past.

I like what Mavis Khan said, uh, who's a space holder over in the US.

She said, well, you know, I, I've got a past, but it's up there on the shelf.

And when I want to look at it, I look at it.

And when I don't, I won't.

And again, it's like that Sidney Banks quote, is there's a, there's a freedom

in that because innocently, you know, we, we, we get caught up in, in the domains

of, of past and future and trying to, to maybe, um, reshape those experiences.

And I, and my guess is we don't do very good there.

So I just wanted to close the loop on the, on the, on the, on the,

you know, we're using the word as, as trauma, but I feel there's,

there's, you know, there's perhaps.

A sense of freedom, at least, that when we could recognize what actually is.

What is a reality and perhaps we're only giving life to something through

the power of thought and that's what we get as a feeling state and

deepening understanding around that.

Maybe, just maybe, there could be a sense of freedom.

Seen it in my life and I've seen it in those.

Once we build rapport and we get a feel for what's going on for their world.

So, trusting that makes sense.

Certainly at a, a verbal level, um, and then that leads me on to, which

if I've captured your question as how I interpreted it, is that the,

the, the physical body, um, then, look, listen, you, you, you know, we

could, we could speak all day about, you know, the importance of looking

after our physical vessel, right?

It's a temporary home.

Um, I'm squinting at sort of like living till three digits,

uh, maybe one, one, one.

That's just the numerology bit in me.

Um, so it makes sense to me to get the basics, right?

The fundamentals of the physical body, right?

Yeah.

And, you know, feeling is not only, um, a symptom of our thinking, but also

perhaps what's going on physiologically.

I don't want to throw that out, uh, so it makes sense to me to do some blood

testing, to make sure you're eating as clean as a whole foods diet as you can,

you know, hydrating, recovery, you know, I got the full, I got the aura ring, I get

some biofeedback in terms of, you know, my sleep quality, respiratory rate, rest

and heart rate, heart rate variability.

Uh, you know, yeah, I'm under a lot of junk light right now, but I'll

make sure I'm under natural light.

I've done that this morning before we jumped on.

I will ground.

I will get heat.

I expose myself to extreme cold temperatures, but I'm doing that for

physiology because that makes sense to me.

The physics of physiology, right?

There's some conditioning.

There's maybe work to do, right?

We can't just take ourselves off to a cave, fold up like a

pretzel and arm for six, seven, eight decades and expect to be.

Full of vitality, energy, and optimized.

So, that, that makes sense to me at least.

Um, so that, that physics of, of conditioning, same with the

relationship, that is form.

It needs work, same with the business, that's a creation form.

It needs work, we need to get better at stuff, there's

skills in all these domains.

But with our mind, Rob, it doesn't operate with the same physics.

And I think what we do is we do put them in the same container.

That if I wanna If I want to get a better physiology, if I want to lean up, if I

want to gain some muscle or if I want to start to sleep better or if I want to get,

you know, uh, an extra 20K turnover, uh, in, in, in my business, then we, we mark

what's going on internally, invisibly with the physics of what's needed.

externally in form, in creation.

The mind, I see it as a, as a self correcting system.

Like if we don't get in there in the, in the mechanics and try and work

out every feeling, every thought, if we stand back, then the mind,

for me, is a self correcting system.

It's not externally corrected.

Like in the world of form, if, if my, my car is, is needing to, you

know, to, to be fixed for whatever reason, it needs the garage.

Um, it needs external intervention.

It needs something from external to actually solve what's going on.

Right.

But with the mind it's, it's internally corrected.

Right.

Um, and once we remove a misunderstanding, once we get out of our way, It does a

very good job of bringing us back to a state of homeostasis, a state of balance.

It gives us fresh and new thinking.

It pierces us, gives us a sense of wisdom, of insight, of creation,

where we're back into our core states.

Um, and that, and that's freedom, right?

That's for me, a life of masterpieces is that it's not out there, over there with

that person, with that thing, that it's.

With us all along, we've got the kit for any adventure, really.

So yes, the physical vessel, I think it needs conditioning at least

to, you know, as we evolve and to look after ourselves, we need to

recover, recuperate, uh, and rest.

But I think we, we, we don't really need to, to do that with mind.

And that takes us into, like, maybe mindset, and we need to get into the

schematics of how the mind works, and how do we reprogram our unconscious,

and, and I'm like, I tried that for a decade, and, and I know you're in, in

the health optimization space, and it felt to me like what Gary Brekker says

when he works with people and they're on antidepressants, and he's like,

they're on it for 15 years, and he's like, When do you expect it to kick in?

And I was like, that was self development.

There's a sense of, of unfulfillment.

And I was like, it's just this lag time.

I'm just waiting for all the sets and reps, everything that I've been

doing with meditation, you know, dream catching, reprogram, the

subliminal messaging, uh, capturing my REM state, sleep, my dream state.

And, you know, I probably live for four hours a day and the

rest was spent working on me.

And.

For me at least, and I see it in people that I work with, is I think

we can, we can just step back and let the natural intelligence of mind

do a lot of the correcting for us.

And to be guided by that is a, is a real powerful place to be.

Yeah, there's a lot that I'm going to have to reflect on as well.

What do you think of John Diamantini specifically?

Um, he's, it's a body of work, his body of work is something I'm not that

familiar with, but there does seem to be some overlap between what he, uh, uh,

talks about and what you've just said.

Do you, do you agree with what he sort of puts out in the world, essentially, that,

uh, mind is, is is essentially everything when it comes down to, to health.

Um, I mean, obviously he works specifically with, with people who are in

these acute sort of physical states of, of disease or dis ease, of being unwell.

Um, what do you think of his work in, in particular?

I, I, I gotta be honest, I'm not overly familiar with it.

I love the fact that he's pointing to Um, you know, if you look at

principles, like, like we're having a conceptual conversation here, what

we've got going for us is what I would call some key principles, right?

We're alive, we're aware, and we think.

Meaning we've got mind, we've got some level of consciousness,

and we've got thought.

Otherwise we couldn't be doing this.

Everyone, 8 billion of us on this planet, right, at the surface

level have got that going for them.

I'm like, wow.

That, that, that's phenomenal, right?

There's 400 quadrillion, one chance for us to be here.

And we, you know, it's virtually zero for us to be walking and

exploring this mother rock.

But we are walking on in a perpetual state of, of a thought created,

perceptual generated reality, what conversation with ourself thinking that.

We've got more to do.

We need to become.

So the, so the, the, the part of mine, like, I'm not really doing a great

job of diving into the great body of work that the chap you ref runs,

but mind really is the power, what I call the power principle, right?

We're plugged in, like the deeper sense of mind is like a universal mind.

And then we've got a personal mind, which is, which is.

which is what you and I have.

But we've got a divine mind or a sense of universal mind that is the natural

intelligence that is guiding the universe, that is allowing birds to migrate, that is

allowing grass to grow through concrete, that is allowing nature to do what it

does exactly on time, and it allows the ocean to do what the ocean does.

It allows any animal in nature to be in sync and do what it does.

And we can rely on that.

Yeah, the, the, the mind works more like, how can I put it, more, more

like a paintbrush or a projector than it does a viewfinder in a camera.

Going back to that life goes on out there and we take it in, that we

are, we are simultaneously creating and perceiving a reality out there.

Like we're only ever up against ourself, but only Like for most people that,

that, that, that, when I said external correcting system about needing to

solve something, that makes sense to something that, that if meaning

that, that it needs intervention, but most people, they have thinking

problems, no judgment, myself included.

And that means, well, if, if it's not a real problem, if it doesn't need external

intervention, if it doesn't need fixing, then if it's a. If it's a thinking

problem, uh, and I'm using problem in the sense of like the general sense of

the word, because there is no problems.

There's a, there's an outcome and then it's how we relate to it.

Um, but if we, if we look at, well, okay, if it's a thinking problem,

then it doesn't need solving.

It needs dissolving.

It needs dissolution.

Meaning that it's, it's created an imagination, whether it's the domain

of the past or future, or whether it's something that we're self creating because

of our perception of things, then that puts us back in power because then we've

got the freedom to see what's going on and that takes the power out of it.

Nothing to do.

You said dissolution a moment ago.

Uh, the moment someone talks to me about dissolution, I sort of instantly

go towards psychedelics and the sort of the dissolution of the ego.

Uh, and I mean, I know psychedelics are a bit of a tricky topic,

uh, at the best of times.

And, and we can certainly, and if this is something you wouldn't, don't want to

answer, we can certainly skim over it.

But have you had any, Um, experience with psychedelics, um, whether personally

with, with your, uh, with your clients and have you found them to be effective

in any way, shape or form or not really?

I, I, I have, uh, and I've had plenty of, of clients.

Um, and when I say I have, um, there was a small microdosing of psilocybin.

Um, but I got to be honest, Rob, I think my.

internal sense of, well, again, I'm going outside of myself to correct

something that's maybe invisible.

Um, but I mean, to really answer your question, I think really what's happening

is a dissolution of our habitual thinking.

Like when we put aside our habitual thinking, cause that's all we

feel like thought is different.

That's a, that's like a blue sky.

It's a universal energy, but it's only until we give life.

to that thought, that we turn it into, like, a thought form.

We call it thinking, and that's what we feel.

So, once we can drop out of that personal thinking, like, we're really

back to the essence of who we truly are.

And we're all experts at it.

Like, we wouldn't fall asleep each night if we didn't fall

out of our personal thinking.

Like, I'm sure you've had nights, I know I have, whereby I can't really

switch out of that personal thinking.

I see it differently now.

It hasn't got an hold over me.

But there would have been times in my life, and there's certainly a patch

in my life where I didn't sleep very well, but I was hanging on to that

personal thing, because I didn't really understand how life worked.

So, we're experts at it.

It's the same when we go on holiday.

Yeah, we go on holiday, we're on the beach, we're on the deck

chair, we've got the ocean in front of us, we've got the sun.

But we've fallen out of our habitual thinking, but the mind blames the feeling

on the circumstance, our surroundings.

What's unique, what's recent, what's consistent.

That's the mind.

That's how it's working.

It's, it's trying to, trying to capture what's going on here.

And that's the, the, it's a mind made illusion because the only place a holiday

really exists is inside of us, right?

There's, um, there's nothing out there in form that can give us a feeling.

There's no, no, no, no past, no future, no person, place, thing, no

personality, no identity, um, that can transition a feeling to us.

Right?

I'm happy to be challenged on that.

If that's not true, um, then we can expose that.

But that's what we're perpetually in a state of that simultaneous creating

and perceiving of a reality is that we're filtering it through thought.

And what does that mean?

Well, seeing it or understanding it gives us so much freedom, gives

us so much freedom that the only thing we're ever up against is our

perspective, is our perception.

Because, you know, I always say, John, John is not an arsehole.

John is John.

I'm meeting my expectation of job or my perspective of job.

Like business is not difficult right now.

Business just is.

I'm meeting my perspective of what's going on in business.

Like my, my future isn't scary.

I'm just meeting my perspective of what it.

And what, how I'm thinking about it and I'm feeling accordingly in the moment.

So there is that, that dissolution process is a, is almost like a subtractive

psychology, if you like, as a, as a body of work, is that once we remove

those layers of thinking, we're back home, we're back to peace, we're back to

security, we're back to happiness, we're back to wellbeing, we're back to clarity.

And, and, and that's why the, you know, the sage is, um, certainly, you know,

roomy where he says, you know, what you're looking for, you're looking for.

That, that, that's, that's another way of pointing to it.

It's not out there on the other side of anything, that's the illusion or any one.

It's a, it's, it's a state that exists.

It's baked into each and every one of us, but we clearly only

look in where the light's better.

That's perfect.

No, it's definitely a unique way of looking at it and something I'm

going to have to again reflect on.

There's going to be a lot I'm going to have to reflect on

this podcast, off this podcast.

Um.

You mentioned earlier that you work with a lot of C suite

execs and, and, and A types.

How often do you find that these individuals are, I suppose this is,

Maybe a bit more of an academic question, uh, that a lot of their issues quote

unquote, um, obviously again, those all relative come back to sort of isolation.

Um, I'm finding more and more people, um, again, in the sort

of the health optimization space, really struggle because they don't

have that sense of community.

They don't have a community.

And then that impacts sort of, well.

almost every aspect of their life.

Um, obviously execs, ATAPs, the most part of very much focused on achievement

and almost to the exclusion of all else.

Um, and I think most people intuitively know that they've got to exercise,

they've got to do, uh, the healthy stuff.

And obviously they're then coming to you for.

for guidance, but do you find a lot of them are overly isolated

and that that's sort of, to some extent, sabotaging their progress?

Yes.

Uh, and I think that's just surface level studies, right?

They say like, you know, two in three CEOs are lonely because the other

side of success is a lonely place.

Um, so really it's a little deep, sort of deeper seated in that, in

that, then what I'm looking for is a sense of how authentic is

their endeavors for their goals.

Like if we're, if, again, we, we, we use language, right?

So if they, if they think that they should be doing something, have to

be doing something, got to be doing singing, must be doing something.

Then for me, that gives me at a surface level, something that's deeper rooted

because they're in reaction, right?

They, they, they feel this is the way that it should be, maybe

because of a misunderstanding that their, their happiness or sense

of, of success or wellbeing is on the other side of something.

innocently.

Um, so I'm getting a feel for how aligned and how authentic their action

taking is because I've seen it that you will find that once we, once we

reveal what life is for them and that they start to see a new world, that

they may stop doing what they're doing.

And they might find that this is not what it is they're here to do, be and serve,

is that they might change career, they might fold down their business, they

might double down on it, it's unique for every person, but we need to get a

sense of whether our action is aligned.

Whether it's authentic, whether it's because we're curious, whether it's

because we're inspired, we're, uh, we're sort of infused with this desire, not from

a case of outside in, meaning that it's going to be responsible for me stopping a

certain core state or for me Attracting a certain core state because it's a judgment

on my part, but most people certainly are in business because they think it's part

of a self development tool that they can use that once I've got this business,

then I can breathe, then I can be be home.

And I'm like, well, if you're in business for that certainty, then good luck.

Um, but we can't get any of those feelings from anything that's created in form.

No thing can give us those core states that even though we seek in it.

We just haven't uncovered them, we haven't got back to them.

Um, so it's a, it's a, it's um, it's a, it's a little bit marshy, but

I'm, I'm looking for what's, what's driving them, what's guiding them,

what's going on, how aligned are they?

Because if their, their words are drooped and they should,

then likely there's some sense of inadequacy, insecurity, or, or lack.

And that can look good on the outside, but I can, I can pretty much guess

that it, it feels that they're pretty empty and lonely on the inside.

So again, it comes in, in all sorts of shapes and sizes and forms in that sense.

Um, but I'm looking to, you know, Thomas Edison's got a great quote

that, um, genius is, he said that the genius is, is 1 percent inspiration.

99 percent perspiration.

And that rings true for me.

It's like, you know, inspiration is great, but are you doing

this because you want to serve?

Is it because you've got something inside of you to give?

Is it that you want to see a better planet?

Is it for the greater good?

Is it for the goodness of your tribe and beyond?

And not everyone.

But certainly people in business are looking to achieve in business.

They think that this is what they've got to do.

It's about status recognition.

They play in the game of what it looks like in terms of their

circumstantial domain, which is the outer domain, because what we've

learned is to change how we feel.

We've got to go out to that outer domain to, to achieve and accumulate.

Um, and at least for what I see, and I know it did ring true in my life, is

that it's a science and you can attain, you can gain, but it's not fulfilling.

Novelty.

I think novelty is something people struggle with a lot.

Um, definitely in terms of being able to, and this will definitely

segue, I think, into a conversation about how to sustain change.

But Again, in my view, people and experience not necessarily view my, in

my experience, people are always very quick to want to make change, but the

moment that that initial novelty has worn off, that the initial excitement

has dissipated, they sort of fall back into their previous ways of, of

operating, of, of, of being, um, How do you sort of, again, um, maybe this

is me just asking for personal reasons, help people to sort of navigate that.

I mean, obviously there, there, there are a bunch of, of changes of, of practices

you could, you could throw into the mix.

Um, but, and I suppose you could utilize tools such as KPIs and, and

other objective measures of success, which may sort of reinforce that, that

sort of that dopamine kick, which is, I suppose, essentially what novelty is.

But, And I suppose this, uh, you might say that this is a bit like a relationship

and keeping things sort of quote unquote fresh, but how do you help someone who

is constantly on the, on, in need of, of the next kick of needing something

to consistently keep them going?

Does that make sense?

Is that, um, yeah.

Perfect sense.

And the last bit of your.

question is, is where it's at because it's like that perpetual state

of more, um, because most people are in that reactionary state.

And again, if their language is rooting in, in, well, I've got to do this,

or I should be doing this, or I have to be doing this, that's the clue.

Because, you know, it's something that I say, and it, it, it

raises the most questions is.

Don't get better at what you don't want to do, right.

And that's an instant thought provoke because most people are doing things

because of imitation or because people said this, or that was my upbringing.

Mom and dad expect this of me.

My business partner expects that.

And it doesn't feel great, right.

It can be exhaustive.

So.

If there's something you want to do, you'd love to do, you want to explore,

you're deeply curious, like you don't need willpower, you don't need mindset,

you don't need motivation, like you're so pulled toward whatever that body of

work is, you don't need pushing, like you don't need to look, well, let me

look at which need I'm meeting here.

What, how am I meeting my, my values?

Like I was, do I need to change who I am in terms of personality?

There's so many variables and moving parts that we know there's a sense of.

inside of us somewhere that this doesn't make sense.

So lasting change for me is that level of three, which is transformation

is transport in the form is seeing a completely different new world,

which happens through a change or a shift in consciousness.

It's awareness.

Cause when you see something, you can't unsee it, right?

Like if, if I leave my office here today, Probably a bad example, but

if I, for me to go home, I turn right and, you know, maybe 20 minutes,

maybe a bit of traffic and, and, and just congestion, that sort of stuff.

But if I left here and turned left that I didn't know about, but there was a route

that could get me home in five minutes, no traffic, just straight through.

Um, how long do you think it would take me?

To continually turn left.

Most people say, well, it, it, it wouldn't take any time.

And I agree with that, right?

Not 21 days to wiring change and our new, uh, greasing the

groove of an habituated habit.

Um, I might go right now and again, but that's because of, of

stale or, uh, patterns of thought.

But I'll wake up to truth and I'll, I'll come back left.

So it's showing people really, um, that, that the taps of life

are, are the wrong way around.

We don't need to cope.

We don't need to fight the world out there.

We don't need any tools, techniques, or strategy.

My life is littered with them.

I'm sure we'll speak about that.

But therefore the domain of physical, uh, health and enhancement, optimization.

But again, in, in terms of, of me as, as a being, um, there's not so, so

back onto awareness and consciousness.

It's like from, and if we can call like what I call like the ground

flow of reality is that I'm looking at a mirage from this level, right?

I can see some, some, something that resembles a mirage.

So that's what I'm taking into my, uh, perceptual reality.

But if I sort of raise and let's call it, I go to another level of

awareness and consciousness, I'm like, Where's the water gone, dude?

It's no longer there.

Because I've shifted my state of awareness, right?

I've seen something now.

And that doesn't mean to say we've come back to ground.

Like, I'm not enlightened by any stretch.

And I'm back into my, you know, it doesn't matter how enlightened

we become, we'll always have to deal with our everyday psychology.

But, but understanding the pattern.

The awareness can be curative.

That alone, right?

That's the door of awareness.

That's the door of change.

Now you're beyond the prison bars.

What you do with your life is up to you.

The, the, it's, it's that elevated, if you like, if I can, if I can call it that,

it's like on the ground floor, we can see a lot of congestion, a lot of vehicles.

It's objective life's coming at me.

I'm, I'm almost like a victim.

Uh, but as, as, as we go, so if you think we're in a glass elevator,

the higher we go on the, on the, the second floors, it's like, well, life

is more subjective in nature, like.

Life is what I make it type thing and the higher we go, we just get out

and we can just see the buildings and then we can see different landscapes.

We can see the ocean.

And then before we know it, we got the curvature of the earth and, and

really, which is like a sort of an in, in, in, Enlightened level, if

you like, where it's all arbitrary.

It's beyond illusion.

So I think lasting change is a shift in awareness.

And do you know what, Rob?

Like we're not in the, in sort of linear space time.

You're not in Newtonian physics.

You're with, uh, with, with insight and wisdom.

It's more of a vertical, vertical dimension.

Cause it can happen that fast.

Someone can have an insight in any moment.

I mean, in the marketplace, we're not all equal.

There's certain skills.

Like if you're a CEO wanting to get better at stuff, there's

certain things to train out.

If we want to get better in a relationship, our physical body, but

the, um, in terms of our soul, right?

We are all equal in terms of wisdom.

We've all got access to it, but we're so contaminated in habitual

thought, thinking patterns that we're not, we can never truly feel it.

We can never truly, we just, our bandwidth, if you like.

Is, um, that, that consciousness is just so full that we don't allow for fresh

and new thinking to come through, right?

So, again, yes, break, breaking through the limitation, because

like Shakespeare said, we've got to know we're in a prison in order

to be, so that's awareness, right?

To be free of that prison.

So it's awareness.

It's the same when someone says, I am depressed, with all love and respect

to that, they can't be, because by definition they've got awareness of it.

So if you've got awareness of it, you can't be it.

So, there's, um, for me, it's, it's, uh, me too.

Yeah, I am, you know, we can say we have.

periods of time where we feel depressed, that's different.

So, your question was, well, how does somebody, I think, get

clarity with yourself and what you truly want for your life?

Like, don't just resign and think, well, I'm living in a self percepted reality,

and I can just resign and just, just realize that nothing's going on out there.

It's not about that.

It's being committed to the life that you want to create.

But make sure it's not rooted in something that you're, you're looking to get away

from or you're in reaction to or at least understanding how the system works.

Then stuff that you, you do and maybe a new level of awareness

stop making sense to you.

You, you don't have to work at the level of behavior.

For me, that's where psychology is.

They've forgotten like mind, um, and, uh, maybe let's call it spirit, soul,

and they've gone straight to behavior.

It's about, you know, getting our fingers in there and

trying to wrestle with reality.

And I think we can do a better job by settling there in our mind

clear, understand the principles.

Like there's three principles behind fire, which is fuel, heat and oxygen.

There's a few principles behind flight, which is drag,

thrust and pull, maybe more.

There's, there's principles, right?

So we've got to understand the world we're in.

That's the misunderstanding.

Again, the life goes on out there because there was once a

theory that the world is flat.

I'm sure there's plenty of people out there that still think it is.

But if the world is flat, then that makes a tough time if we're a sailor.

Right?

It means we've got to be aware, we've got to have certain guiding principles so we

can navigate that landscape because we, we, we're scared of going over the edge.

But that's no longer a truth.

That's not the paradigm we live in.

We're in a spherical world.

And there's others as well.

It's like the geocentric theory of the, of the, of the Earth is that

there was once a time where we thought that the sun went round the Earth.

And it made a terrible time for seasons, for, for farming,

our calendars misaligned.

And then we, we removed the misunderstanding that no, the earth

goes around the sun and things started to align and synchronize.

So that understanding the world we're in, how life operates is.

far superior than needing to, to do anything at maybe the, the level

one and two interventions or even sort of mindset or self developing.

Like, look at nature.

I got probably 5, 000 conifer trees up behind us on the mountain, and I haven't

heard them once do an affirmation, an incantation, look at, at maybe

looking at what, you know, have they got to work on, on their growth?

They just do, right?

No, 100%.

Um, I think this is another great segue into sort of how to

make this practical for people.

Uh, we've had an amazing conversation thus far, but when someone's trying to,

to create change, um, perhaps they're working here, perhaps they're not.

How do you sort of guide someone through a, a process sort of practically where.

They are able to, to instigate this change and to then stick to these

changes on, on, on a practical level.

Are you utilizing any tools, um, specifically, uh, uh, things like HRV?

I know you've mentioned that previously as well.

Um, maybe to, does that make sense?

It does.

It makes pure sense, Rob.

Um, and what's coming through me is.

We can't teach a child to become a teen.

It's, it's osmosis, right?

It's evolution.

Um, so we don't know what we don't know.

Like Carl Jung said, until we make the unconscious conscious, it's going

to continually, uh, sort of, sort of run us if, if that makes sense.

So people, you know, it's, It's a conversation, I mean, spending time with

people that can listen, truly listen, hold space, and to just be a mirror to

what they're hearing, like what I do is like, okay, it's real, what's going

on is real, but is it a truth, like, is it on the show now, and is it true for

all beings, and if it's not, it's real.

Then it's not true.

That opens the door to change.

But there's a precursor because, again, people don't know what they don't know.

Everyone's got a VR headset on with where they're at, right?

And life Looks that way to them like I often use this one like if you saw me and

and I was with you with my wife I had a VR headset on and I was acting out because I

was seeing a certain game or something And I actually reached out like and I caught

my wife in the face Then your reaction to that would be bloody hell careful, buddy.

Watch where you're going Now if I took that VR headset off and I had

done the same strike and caught my wife across the face Your reaction

will be completely different, I guess.

It's like, you're like, dude, what are you doing?

You've just, you've just struck your wife in the chops.

Because everyone's behaving, and it's a metaphor, for how they see their world.

So, that's why an alcoholic drinks.

That's why a drug user uses.

That's why a workaholic is chained to his desk.

That's why a thinkaholic is, is constantly in his habituated thinking.

Because the paradigm, the, the, the life that he's seeing, she

is seeing, makes sense to them.

So if life is going on up there and I gotta react to life, and it's um, it's

scary and, and stress and, and all the stuff that, you know, even discouragement

and fear comes from out there, then I'm gonna wanna break from this.

I, I, I am going to want to numb, whether that's taking myself away, whether

that's, that's maybe having a few drinks.

I'm going to need to just take the sharpness off life.

That makes sense.

So it's only that I can sit by someone and look at the world they're seeing

and, and, and totally get in that world and loving, appreciating, and

understanding their world is where you can really look to influences to say,

well, do you know what, what I'm seeing?

It's, it's not what I'm seeing.

It's what I'm seeing from where you are at.

Your level of grounding, but it's not what I'm seeing.

That, that is enough to like make their, their foundations a little bit shaky.

So to answer your question, that's where I feel the door of change is.

And I know I've given an example, like a coaching example, but

life will give you a two by four.

It did with me.

I had health anxiety, crippling health anxiety.

At thinking, I was unwell.

My physical body wasn't, um, but I had a, I had a, I had a thinking problem.

Um,

so,

you know, I, I, I think that the change in a coaching environment can

create the conditions to allow people to have insight, to realize perhaps

what's going on for them isn't true.

It needs dissolving or solving.

Life will give you plenty of what we call significant emotional events.

It can offer you a, you know, a circumstance, losing a loved

one, losing your job, losing your business, uh, and, and, and.

Uh, and, and, and perhaps that's an opportunity, um, to, to, to realize that

as, as unfortunate and painful of, uh, of events they are, that the perpetual

state of suffering is self created.

Like, we're gonna get pain, right?

We're gonna get our knocks.

Um, so I think wisdom will find its way, whatever that is, because that, again,

those painful events, like my, my path, how it began, that curiosity was, I was

believing my thinking at such a level that I thought I was unwell when I wasn't.

Right.

That's a clear thinking problem.

But fortunately I was in reaction at that point and I had some people

in my world that I could rely on.

And I went to a doctor who was like incredible.

And he said, we're not giving you sleeping medication.

We're not giving you anything else.

Here's a book.

And that took me into the world of like cognitive behavioral therapy.

And at the time it was great.

to, to, to hear that, you know, well, fight or flight, like this,

this fear response is primitive.

Uh, but now we can get switched on with like an argument with

your wife or a certain message you get or comment on social media.

Like seeing that it was invisible before, like quick story.

I was working with a client up in Derby last year.

Might've even been here before.

Uh, and his, his child was suffering, newborn baby, suffering with a

respiratory issue, completely congested.

Um, and at the time I was like he was trying all the things on

a surface level, like cleaning up nutrition, got him off all the baby

formula because he's just rancid and it's a lot of offenders in there.

Um, so.

But I was like, what, what, what's the, is there any mold in your house?

And he was like, what do you mean by that?

So we had a conversation about more than what, anyway, what we found

was above the door in the bedroom of the baby's room, there was,

there was damp, there was watering grass, there was mold in the room.

I mean, they were on the floor at the service level, maybe

at that objective reality.

trying to do the best they can because everyone is right.

And it wasn't until we made something that was invisible to them.

It was always there, but now made it visible.

They could see it.

Problem went away.

Elfie baby in no time.

That's incredible.

I think, yeah, no, this is sort of reshaping my whole reality right now.

Um, it's really about.

Sort of helping someone identify what they don't know at the end of the day

and then sort of pointing them into the direction that they feel they need to go.

That's what I'm taking away from this.

I don't know if that's sort of in any way, shape or form correct.

Indeed Ron, I just want to rudely interject

there because you're right.

It's when I'm here, like I'm in Beta Brainwave now and we're pitching and

catching Q& A. Um, as much as I'm trying to settle and articulate and

trying to describe like the formless and the invisible as best I can.

Um, you know, it's, uh, it's, it's been great to just go back and forth

with the level of questioning you have.

Because yeah, you've encapsulated it really neatly in that the world

is perhaps not how you think it is.

And all we ever get is the feeling of our thinking.

But there's a world beyond our thinking.

And that for me is transformation.

Is that you're helping people be in a different world.

So it's neatly, I mean, we've, you know, the, the, the principles, like I

said, uh, and maybe the paradigm, seeing it as it is, it makes sense to me.

All behavior does.

But if I can show you a different world.

You've got a new life.

You do, indeed.

Andrew, I want to be respectful of your time, but before we sort of, uh, end

this conversation, I would just like to ask you a few rapid fire questions.

They're always great just to sort of, well, encapsulate what we've

talked about, but also just pick your brain on a few separate topics.

Um, you can ask them as quickly, uh, or as, Uh, concisely as you like, but first

up gratitude practices and journaling.

Do you think these have a place in transformational coaching

and, uh, or life in general?

Absolutely.

Uh, I mean, I know this is quickfire and I've got a real way of

articulation that is lengthy, but, um, it, yeah, I mean, again, that

door of change, what you alluded to.

I mean, I think journaling makes sense, right?

It still does to me now.

Like, there's nothing mightier than the pen.

Like, but the one power in journaling is, you know, if you can differentiate

what's going on here in imagination, in mind, in thought, like if you

can, if you can put disparity, if you can put that out on paper, there's,

there's something that is felt there.

Can't put it into words, but it's like, it's over there and it's

not me, which it isn't really.

Right.

That, that habituation and obsession of self is like, all this is going on.

It's like, it's only me.

Um, so yeah, there's definitely journal.

I think that that entry points to maybe a way forward to change,

to just change something in terms of your experience of life.

Of course it is.

It's a class of experience of what I call.

It feels good.

It's good for you.

It's good for others and it serves the greater good.

It's what I call a class one experience.

Um, so absolutely lit, lit, lit your life with that as much as possible.

And I'd like to give you an insight into like a class three experience

is, is that it feels good.

It's not good for you.

It doesn't serve the greater good and it's not good for others.

It's, uh, it's sort of a obtainable way to change your state.

And that could be like the levels of behavior that we said about thinkaholic,

workaholic, alcoholic, and, and, and.

So class three experiences easily, because they're easy to obtain,

uh, we can easily fall into those.

Uh, and, and, and so suppose if you want to look at something tangible,

like life is about converting.

Uh, maybe those class three experiences into maybe class

one or class two experiences and that can make a legendary life.

I mean again, I would assert that it's it's again a rearranging imaginary

furniture because once you get a deep understanding for how life

works All that becomes a little bit.

Okay, maybe you it's just effortless from there.

Uh, but can be great So yeah journaling a great class of experience helps

disparity, helps get something out of, out of what's going on inside,

making that invisible, visible.

Uh, and that awareness creates a pattern and seeing a pattern can be

curative because that creates a way.

Perfect answer.

I think the next one probably be similar.

Um, but what are your thoughts on religion, having a higher power, having.

Something you believe in that sort of exceeds, uh, our understanding of

the Cercle realm, whatever it is, uh, Christianity, Buddhism, um, believing

in the universe, do you think, uh, that is helpful in this life?

Having that belief that there is something out there that exceeds,

uh, exceeds us or was designed us.

Absolutely.

I mean, I know you suggested there, whether it's like spirituality,

whether it's religion, I mean, if it's, you know, there's a great Buddhist

quote that goes, all fingers the point to the moon and not the moon.

And I think as long as we look at the oneness, uh, that makes sense to me,

how we get there, that's up to people.

I'll never tell anyone what to truly believe, just live accordingly.

But yes, the oneness, the universe, the, the deeper intelligence that

is behind life, like when you really like settle into that, it takes a load

off our mind that it's not up to us.

Like we, we, we can rely.

on something that is, um, that is always there, that has always got us.

But we think we don't, but it's up to us.

But yeah, 100%.

So if, yeah, it's, it's more spiritual for me in terms of a lens

and I was born into Christianity.

Um, but that's the curiosity, right?

Uh, I'm also, um, a fan of the Tao Te Ching, which is Lao Tzu's fine

work, uh, and the 81 chapters there.

What a great teaching, you know, they teach simplicity,

uh, compassion and patience.

And I'm like, That's it.

They're three.

That trifecta, again, if I'm to talk about principles, like mind consciousness

thought, like the principles behind the work of the Tao Te Ching, it's like, wow.

Um, so I'm forever grateful, you know, I got a little creed up the back there and

it says, learn from those before us, um, because success does leave those clues.

Um, and yeah, so I, I believe that knowing that we've got a life partner.

The oneness, whatever it is, whatever finger you want to

use, makes pure sense to me.

Perfect.

Two more.

Um, building resilience.

A lot of people have sort of gotten to this idea that they've got to eat the

frog first thing in the morning, uh, do something hard to start the day off,

whether it's an ice bath or doing a workout or yeah, it could be something

we've just discussed like journaling.

Um, do you think that the, that is, a case to be made about doing these

sort of hard things first off in the day to build resilience so that you

can utilize that almost as a backbone for, for change going forwards.

Do you think doing these hard things first thing in the morning

is, is conducive to, to change?

Yes.

I mean, do I answer it in one word?

Yes.

Um, I think, I think the, the, the misunderstanding is that we need

to do something for resilience.

I don't necessarily subscribe to that anymore because resilience is innate.

just like any of the core states that we want.

Like it's there if we remove that misunderstanding that, that maybe

we're not really perceiving a world as it is, as it unfolds.

That will take so much away.

That will, that will allow us to tap into that, uh, innate resilience, if you like.

Um, but yes.

I believe in, you know, we we're in the domain of, of our experience,

which is created through psychology.

So it makes sense to me to use your language, eat the frog, chew

the wood, do something difficult.

Um, I mean, that's, my life's littered with things like that because it's fun.

I can do it.

It's nice to talk to people about it.

I'm not trying to get anything from it, like the, the cold exposure.

Um, I mean, yeah, it's, you know, it's, it's a flood of the, um, you know,

the endorphins

and the, the neurochemicals.

It's, it's a state change for sure.

I mean, I do it for more from a physical perspective because, you know,

temperature fluctuation, certainly extremes, helps with hormones.

It helps with the lymph flash.

So it makes sense to me.

And you're right.

Doing it is hard.

And on the other side, it does feel good, but you know, I'm not

looking to get anything from it.

It's not really going to correct me in any way if I got.

Um, something in terms of like a misunderstanding that's going on.

I don't think anything like the tools and practice that we're

gifted to have will necessarily change, uh, how we see in our world.

But that's just a viewpoint of mine.

Like I'm not looking to be, to be right here, but that's just certainly

the direction I'm looking in.

So yeah, doing something hard, doing something, setting

yourself up in the morning.

But also Rob, I think the way I'm seeing life at the moment,

there's nothing better than.

You know, I, I got a strict rule with caffeine because of adenosine.

I don't, don't tend to take on caffeine inside of the first hour of working, but

there's something certainly this time of year, certainly the, uh, where, where

we are geographically is putting on my, putting on my gown, putting my head over

and just having a little bit of, I call it meditation, but it's more a reflection

and a thanks to those in my world and those who are no longer in, in 3d reality.

Uh, and, and, and, and, Just maybe some gentle foam rolling, stretching, and

just a cup of coffee, contemplation, and reading some good books.

So I don't necessarily think we need to do, you know, we cut with,

we're hypnotizing to just looking where the light's better, and that's

a metaphor to say, well, if what you're looking for is there, surely

there is a better place to be.

Um, so I don't think we do ourselves a disservice, um, service there.

I think it's all innocent.

But yeah, do, do, do something art if that makes sense to you.

But what I would assert is once you deeply understand how life works,

some of the stuff that perhaps you do because you think you should be

doing it will stop making sense.

Perfect answer again.

Okay.

Final question for the listeners may be stuck in life and just what three pieces

of basic advice would you give them to start them on their journey to help

them getting it to a place where they feel like they're making progress again?

This is, um, it's a beautiful question.

The one thing that comes to mind when you speak of advice is when

we need advice, we can't hear it.

And when we can hear it, we don't need it.

So I don't want to be a right dick here and piss over the question

because I'm going to answer it.

Um, but I believe the.

You know, that's what we're very good at, Rob.

I heard a quote once, is that everyone's looking to plug their umbilical

cord into something or someone, and it's quite a crude metaphor.

Um, but that, that, that's the way I see it now, is you are where you are,

you've got what you've got, you're seeing what you're seeing, and just

know you've got it all going for you.

And I'm not speaking to you, I'm just speaking to whoever listens to this.

is, is, yeah, once you can allow that habituated thinking to, to,

to, to sort of soften, to fall away, to quieten, you'll be guided.

Um, but I get it.

You want something more surface level and, you know, again, because what I

would say is number one would be love.

It's what's behind me there is love is all we need.

You know, the Beatles were on to it.

But I think they put a blanket over anything.

If you kill people with love, something magical happens.

But the misconception again, the misunderstanding is love is a verb.

But it's not something we give.

No one can give you anything.

They can act as a catalyst to reveal what's already inside of you.

So that love comes from inside, just like resilience, just like security.

The, the illusion is that it's out there in space and time or

on the other side of something.

But again, I want to give people.

something where they're at.

Um, so the three I would, I would likely give is, is some sort of

what you touched on in your previous question is spiritual evolution

is know that it's not all on you.

You can let go of control.

You can take a day off from that because that's what chokes most people up.

It's not, not up to you.

You've got to be in creation.

You've got to be a certain being to go, to go out there and create because we

can, you don't have to, but you can.

And you've, you know, it's got to be rooted in a, in a warmth

and a desire and a love too.

So some sort of spiritual evolution, I got a theory untested that

the more spiritual poverty we have, the more we suffer, right?

The more that we think it's all on us and we get plenty of knocks there because

we resist, we resist what is right.

It's either that we, we have something we don't want or we

want something we don't have.

So it's got, it's, it's got its roots in some sort of suffering that

we're not accepting life as it is.

So that's the one is, is I would embark on and that's what's changed me.

Like when I went to the doctor and he gave me a book about behavioral therapy

and things is that opened me up to like some sort of Chinese philosophy of, of,

of being an Eastern, Eastern tradition.

Uh, and that opened me up to, to spirituality and I think, yeah, that,

that makes sense to me to embark on something, whether it's religion like

you, is that some sort of faith surface level of that word would be certainty,

but instead of looking for control and certainty in your outside environment.

You've got more certainty and control in our insight.

So that makes sense to me.

So that, that would be number one.

And then I think what I've spoke about, which I haven't really double clicked

on, but is what creates experience.

Like if one thing I pray for my girls every morning is the three

things is health, uh, it's know what creates your experience and thirdly.

Know how truly awesome you are.

Know that you are a diamond.

Like, like, really, they're extremely powerful.

But I get people are where they're at, they see them what they're seeing.

But it would be to know that you're living in the feeling of your thinking,

and not in the feeling of the world.

Looks that way.

But we're not in the feeling of people, circumstances, events,

situations, past, future.

We're tuned into the, to our thinking right now.

And that's all we get.

The feeling we're in is all we get.

So that would be number two.

And then number three, I suppose would be, it's a little bit on

thread with the spirituality pieces, embracing life as it is.

Like again, that resistance, right?

That, that perpetuation of suffering.

We all, me too.

Right?

I have moments of that until, again, you've got the awareness that, that,

that it doesn't, doesn't stay around.

But that, that resistance to worry.

So embracing life as it is can take away and remove those prison bars.

It can remove the cage and something magical happens on the other side.

So they would be my three.

I believe that that was spiritual evolution.

Uh, it would be to understand what creates our experience moment to moment.

And then thirdly is to.

Is to understand that life is unfolding as it is, doesn't mean you've got

to put up with it, be the change, but I mean, just accept how it is.

So they would be my, my, my three, even though love was there at the beginning,

because that is the one, right?

We're never not in love.

Love is not something we give.

Love is who we are.

The essence of who we are is love, but that maybe is for another kind of story.

I'm

just reflecting on all three of those now.

I think that's quite possibly the best answer I've ever had to that question.

So thank you, Andrew, this has been amazing and I can't wait until we do

another one, but for the moment, where is the best place people can find

you if they want to work with you?

I know that you have an event coming up, uh, called awake, which

is something that looks amazing.

Um, so feel free to talk about that as well, but yeah, what's where's the,

the best place people can connect.

Well, I'm, I'm, I'm a, I'm a digital dinosaur.

I mean, I, I. Put value out there into the world because it's,

it's something I want to do.

So social media, I mean, Instagram at Andrew McLaughlin coaching.

Um, I believe the analysing McLaughlin coaching website is andrewmclaughlin.

co. uk.

and LinkedIn as well.

So there's a few handles to, to, to, um, to look at and explore.

I'm a human being.

I answer everyone who poses a question or just wants to ask

something, always open for IMU to help to contribute, to grow and give.

Um, yeah, there's a couple of ways to work.

I mean, I am venturing 2025 is going to see more group dynamic coaching,

which we'll speak about briefly, which is, which is the, uh, the intro into

the event or in Ibiza, which is awake.

Uh, one on one coaching is my, it's probably my signature.

product, which is to create a living masterpiece, which is the

grounds of freedom is being able to see a completely different world.

Uh, and I also do intensives, uh, for someone who doesn't, you know, is not

ready for maybe a six, 12 month journey.

Um, and we'll just do a deep dive one day, two days, weekend place of choice.

Um, yeah, to, to add massive value.

So you can invite me into your, into your world.

Um, so you can create that masterpiece and you can change

how you feel, how you behave.

Um, So there's, there's the, the social media handles.

That's how I work.

I mean, Awake is pretty special, right?

Co creating that event with my good mate, Jamie.

We're putting on, um, a reconnect.

It's not a retreat.

It's a reconnect.

It's coming back home.

It's blueprint changing.

Um, largely what we talked about here, it's going to be lifted with all the good,

Tools, the treats, the techniques, the practices, yoga, breathwork, hot, cold.

We're going to have some great food.

It's all sustainable sourced on the island.

We're in a hotel called Kansalia in Kaledubu.

It's an amazing place.

Great owners.

Um, uh, are aligned with what it is we want to, we want to

serve up and it's west facing.

So we'll get lots of sunsets.

Vedra.

We're going to do a lot of grounding, a lot of integration.

We're going to be doing a lot of teaching.

It's going to be one on one coaching.

There's going to be group coaching.

There's going to be, we're getting the art of the delivery, uh, which is fine.

Because as Quincy Jones said, who, uh, he passed last year is when he's in creation,

he's a music producer, is that he creates and then he leaves room for God.

I know that's got implications, but.

I think we've got to be guided as well, uh, but it's going to be impactful.

Um, so yeah, we're, we're, we're interviewing for, for candidates

11 souls, open to more or to less.

It's going to be what it is.

Um, and on there will be what we call mechanics, which I know you've asked

Rob, and I haven't done it, Um, justice really in that the metrics like looking

at blood work, like I do it, do it for my family, my clients is looking at

what I'd call like the dashboard lights, have a look what's, um, what's showing

up, uh, from, from blood, um, looking up or around clients, you know, and

participants will get an order ring.

So we can look at biometrics, like certainly outresting heart rate and HRV.

Um, which is our variability without diving into that.

There's some surface level metrics that we can look at, uh, and influence, right?

We, we, we can get better at these stuff.

There was one story, it was all automatic.

We couldn't do it, but we can.

Um, and also DNA swabbing DNA.

There's a few, few genes that we can.

Again, this is, this is a bit of a, a rabbit hole, but we can, we can

influence, you know, epigenetics flies in the face of it all, right?

That we can override that with perception and blood.

Uh, well that, that creates the environment and it's the

environment that influences the gene.

So even though the gene might be loaded or predisposed, predisposed,

doesn't mean that that expresses, but it's worth knowing, right?

It's about making that invisibility.

Uh, it gives you your training type, your chronotype, uh, lets

you know whether you're a type A, I think you've alluded to that.

So there's some stuff worth knowing, but more than anything.

like certainly like the COMT gene, uh, WariaWaria, and also the, um,

methylation gene, like I'm in that club, pretty much 50 percent of us,

Northern Hemisphere, uh, certainly UK.

So it's worth knowing that, like behavior first, maybe nutrition.

Uh, but also some targeted supplementation as well.

I think we're entering into the world of personalization for physical health.

Yeah.

Uh, that makes sense to me.

I've been, you know, gone on a, uh, I've spent some time with some bright minds.

It's like, you can't just put yourself in a bucket of carnivore

keto and all the others.

It's, it's, it's what works for you.

It truly is.

Uh, so it's a highly personalized journey, but you know, without,

without going on you, that, that is a way you can reach out to us.

We've got a handle there.

We're filtering for, you know, people that, that we want to

know why they want to be on this.

It's going to be impactful.

Yeah.

And there's a couple of ways to work with me, um, exclusively as well.

So I'm hoping that answered your final questions there.

But it's honestly, Rob, it's been a pleasure.

I mean, me and you connected, like you said, a couple of years back,

been in touch and I, and I feel you.

I feel your journey.

I love your authenticity.

I love your truth telling vulnerability.

And.

Yeah, it's, um, it's, you know, you're certainly someone I want

to spend more time with, get you involved in the projects.

And so I'm showing up and giving a bit of time and love to what you create in here.

I fully, fully love and appreciate you, man.

That's amazing.

Just thank you so much.

And yes, we'll, we'll definitely link to all of those socials in the show

notes as well as awake and yeah, I just can't wait until a, we do this again

and, and be, um, what's awake brings.

So yes.

Uh, same to you as well.

Thank you for all that you bring to the world and, um, yeah, I

can't wait to do this again.