1 00:00:00,500 --> 00:00:03,962 One of the things I think is so important is it really is okay 2 00:00:04,004 --> 00:00:08,133 to just be whatever your role is, to just be that. 3 00:00:08,133 --> 00:00:11,136 And so if you're a friend of someone who has a trauma history, 4 00:00:11,761 --> 00:00:14,222 you don't have to be their counselor. 5 00:00:14,222 --> 00:00:15,890 You don't have to be their pastor. 6 00:00:15,890 --> 00:00:18,101 You don't have to be their life coach. 7 00:00:18,101 --> 00:00:19,978 It's okay to just be their friend. 8 00:00:25,942 --> 00:00:26,484 This is great. 9 00:00:26,484 --> 00:00:29,487 I'm really glad you could make this work, Michael. 10 00:00:29,779 --> 00:00:31,906 I I'm really glad it's been a minute. 11 00:00:31,906 --> 00:00:34,659 So, we interviewed you. 12 00:00:34,659 --> 00:00:35,785 Wow. 13 00:00:35,785 --> 00:00:39,289 It's been probably four years five years ago, at least. 14 00:00:39,622 --> 00:00:40,790 I think it was during the height of Covid or something. 15 00:00:40,790 --> 00:00:43,543 Oh, my. Okay, so which was, quite the time. 16 00:00:43,543 --> 00:00:44,544 Yeah. 17 00:00:44,544 --> 00:00:48,173 So, Michael, you work as a counselor, and you do, 18 00:00:48,465 --> 00:00:53,386 some teaching and things on a variety of topics, but one specifically, 19 00:00:54,012 --> 00:00:57,891 I want to dive in today, and this is, you know, a more heavy and, 20 00:00:58,308 --> 00:00:59,476 maybe not the typical thing 21 00:00:59,476 --> 00:01:03,480 we cover on this podcast, but that is the topic of trauma. 22 00:01:04,105 --> 00:01:07,942 And, to be honest, I don't know much about it. 23 00:01:07,942 --> 00:01:13,239 I you know, you hear things, you bump into some things, 24 00:01:13,239 --> 00:01:17,786 and I think it's pretty easy to build in, in the mind of, like, I kind of think 25 00:01:17,786 --> 00:01:22,832 it's like this, and I'm, I'm guessing that I probably don't have that quite right. 26 00:01:22,832 --> 00:01:26,336 So I'd love to hear from you 27 00:01:26,836 --> 00:01:30,882 on just some basics and what we can learn and how that applies 28 00:01:30,882 --> 00:01:33,760 to us, to the audience, anybody who listens to this. 29 00:01:35,345 --> 00:01:38,181 So I guess just to start it off, let's let's start with the basics. 30 00:01:38,181 --> 00:01:41,184 And what is trauma? 31 00:01:41,476 --> 00:01:43,186 there's a lot of ways you can define trauma. 32 00:01:43,186 --> 00:01:46,272 I think about emotional wounding. 33 00:01:46,481 --> 00:01:50,485 So if you think about the difference between pain and wounding. 34 00:01:50,485 --> 00:01:55,031 So in terms of the physical body we experience pain all the time. 35 00:01:55,031 --> 00:01:58,034 That isn't necessarily wounding a wound 36 00:01:58,368 --> 00:02:01,496 not only hurts but is a lasting source of hurt 37 00:02:01,830 --> 00:02:05,250 that limits our ability to function in some way. 38 00:02:05,250 --> 00:02:07,168 So I have a laceration on my arm. 39 00:02:07,168 --> 00:02:09,337 It's harder to use my arm. 40 00:02:09,337 --> 00:02:12,340 It limits what I can do with it, and it continues to hurt. 41 00:02:12,382 --> 00:02:14,384 So in some ways, trauma is that way. 42 00:02:14,384 --> 00:02:16,136 It's not simply pain 43 00:02:16,136 --> 00:02:19,973 that a person has experienced, but it's an ongoing source of pain. 44 00:02:21,141 --> 00:02:22,559 So overwhelming. 45 00:02:22,559 --> 00:02:24,519 Distressing. 46 00:02:24,519 --> 00:02:27,480 It's in some cases, terrifying events that occur to people. 47 00:02:28,106 --> 00:02:31,109 They continue to be a source of wounding, ongoing. 48 00:02:31,985 --> 00:02:35,613 And is that one of the challenges when it comes to things like trauma. 49 00:02:35,613 --> 00:02:38,241 Is someone looking on from the outside. 50 00:02:38,241 --> 00:02:40,952 Oh well that happened to you like a long time ago. 51 00:02:40,952 --> 00:02:42,704 Why is this still, an issue. 52 00:02:42,704 --> 00:02:44,706 Yes, yes, very much so. 53 00:02:44,706 --> 00:02:46,916 Or the individual themselves? 54 00:02:46,916 --> 00:02:49,711 Yeah, I hear that a lot from people that I work with. 55 00:02:49,711 --> 00:02:51,421 Why am I still struggling with this? 56 00:02:51,421 --> 00:02:53,131 Why does it still affect me? 57 00:02:53,131 --> 00:02:57,051 Yeah, I'm not really not sure where the idea of a timetable 58 00:02:57,051 --> 00:03:00,138 comes from, but for some reason we have this idea 59 00:03:00,930 --> 00:03:03,183 that you should be over it 60 00:03:03,183 --> 00:03:05,685 by a certain point. 61 00:03:05,685 --> 00:03:07,228 But it's not that way. 62 00:03:07,228 --> 00:03:11,107 And trauma can last for a lifetime, potentially, if there isn't healing 63 00:03:12,775 --> 00:03:15,028 I guess the 64 00:03:15,028 --> 00:03:19,490 the part about this is it's pretty easy to make assumptions. 65 00:03:19,949 --> 00:03:23,494 And again for something like trauma 66 00:03:23,494 --> 00:03:26,748 it's not like oh someone loses their arm in an accident. 67 00:03:26,789 --> 00:03:30,126 It's very obvious that hey you know that happened. 68 00:03:30,460 --> 00:03:32,378 You know they have this limitation. 69 00:03:32,378 --> 00:03:35,381 They have one arm, with trauma. 70 00:03:35,590 --> 00:03:37,175 It's not really the case, I guess. 71 00:03:37,175 --> 00:03:38,885 And again, I'm not. 72 00:03:38,885 --> 00:03:40,970 This is not my field. I. 73 00:03:40,970 --> 00:03:42,430 I feel like I have so much to learn here. 74 00:03:42,430 --> 00:03:44,224 This, I'm sure is quite complicated. 75 00:03:44,224 --> 00:03:47,227 And, what I hear you saying is 76 00:03:47,727 --> 00:03:50,688 a person can be traumatized and we wouldn't necessarily know it, 77 00:03:50,688 --> 00:03:53,775 or we might not credit the impact of their trauma 78 00:03:53,775 --> 00:03:57,070 on them because it's not something visible like losing an arm. 79 00:03:57,070 --> 00:03:58,905 Is that kind of what you're saying? 80 00:03:58,905 --> 00:04:01,366 Because you can look at that and be, Oh I can, I can easily see that. 81 00:04:01,366 --> 00:04:03,952 Whereas someone may have went through something horrible and 82 00:04:05,036 --> 00:04:05,536 you can't really 83 00:04:05,536 --> 00:04:08,539 tell from just looking at them necessarily. 84 00:04:08,581 --> 00:04:09,916 Yeah. Yeah. That. 85 00:04:09,916 --> 00:04:12,418 So this is true on on many levels. 86 00:04:12,418 --> 00:04:15,129 So one way that this is true, 87 00:04:15,129 --> 00:04:17,924 the impact on a person isn't always obvious. 88 00:04:17,924 --> 00:04:20,093 Now, sometimes it is if a person engages in 89 00:04:20,093 --> 00:04:23,680 some kind of destructive behavior that involves other people. 90 00:04:24,138 --> 00:04:27,100 Obviously, not all traumatized individuals do that. 91 00:04:27,475 --> 00:04:30,812 Or if a person's symptoms are visible, 92 00:04:32,021 --> 00:04:33,147 or obvious to other people. 93 00:04:33,147 --> 00:04:37,402 But a lot of people experience their symptoms in private 94 00:04:38,444 --> 00:04:39,988 or simply inside of themselves. 95 00:04:39,988 --> 00:04:42,991 So we like to talk about the difference between acting in 96 00:04:43,449 --> 00:04:47,161 and acting out, acting out as in more familiar language. 97 00:04:47,829 --> 00:04:49,455 You act out the distress. 98 00:04:49,455 --> 00:04:52,458 It's on the inside, through drinking 99 00:04:52,458 --> 00:04:56,671 or getting into arguments or or cutting or whatever it might be. 100 00:04:56,671 --> 00:04:59,465 And again, not all traumatized people do things like that. 101 00:04:59,465 --> 00:05:03,011 Just but just to to define the terms. 102 00:05:03,970 --> 00:05:07,223 But people also act in, which means 103 00:05:07,765 --> 00:05:10,768 they work out their distress internally. 104 00:05:11,227 --> 00:05:12,770 So that might be through worry 105 00:05:12,770 --> 00:05:16,482 or through negative thoughts about themselves or maybe poor health. 106 00:05:16,482 --> 00:05:19,152 Maybe the body absorbs the impact of it. 107 00:05:19,152 --> 00:05:22,405 So what I'm saying with that is a lot of people are traumatized 108 00:05:22,405 --> 00:05:24,615 and you wouldn't know it just to observe them. 109 00:05:24,615 --> 00:05:26,909 It might just look like a quiet person. 110 00:05:26,909 --> 00:05:29,829 And that's what's so sad, is 111 00:05:29,829 --> 00:05:32,707 these people are really hurting very badly 112 00:05:32,707 --> 00:05:35,710 on the inside, and people don't know it, 113 00:05:36,085 --> 00:05:38,921 and they're not necessarily going to talk about it. 114 00:05:38,921 --> 00:05:41,924 That is so hard to talk about. 115 00:05:43,009 --> 00:05:44,844 And that 116 00:05:44,844 --> 00:05:48,598 transitions a little bit into another question I had too. 117 00:05:49,682 --> 00:05:51,768 It seems like 118 00:05:51,768 --> 00:05:54,771 there's often a stigma around the topic of trauma, 119 00:05:55,146 --> 00:05:58,858 which feels like we just kind of reinforce some of the things you were just saying. 120 00:05:58,858 --> 00:05:59,359 Right. 121 00:05:59,359 --> 00:06:03,029 It's easy to just, oh, we'll just ignore that or we’ll sweep 122 00:06:03,029 --> 00:06:06,032 that under the rug or, so forth. 123 00:06:06,783 --> 00:06:08,076 Why is that? 124 00:06:08,076 --> 00:06:11,913 And then how can we find some healthier responses to these things? 125 00:06:12,997 --> 00:06:14,332 Yeah that's a really good question. 126 00:06:14,332 --> 00:06:17,335 So in the context of our Anabaptist 127 00:06:18,044 --> 00:06:21,381 communities that might be a good thing for me to mention. 128 00:06:21,381 --> 00:06:24,467 By the way, in passing, those are mostly the people I work with 129 00:06:24,509 --> 00:06:28,971 is people from fairly conservative Anabaptist communities. 130 00:06:28,971 --> 00:06:31,974 So that's my context here for this issue. 131 00:06:32,975 --> 00:06:35,019 So we tend to be, 132 00:06:35,019 --> 00:06:38,022 in many ways, a very stoic people. 133 00:06:38,898 --> 00:06:42,026 We often have a horror of self-pity, 134 00:06:43,736 --> 00:06:47,865 of blame shifting and victimization, which goodness knows. 135 00:06:47,865 --> 00:06:49,951 There's plenty of that to go around in this world. 136 00:06:49,951 --> 00:06:52,954 And and it's certainly a good thing to stay away from. 137 00:06:53,663 --> 00:06:57,625 But many of our people tend to be very sensitive to those things. 138 00:06:58,334 --> 00:07:00,336 So I've heard it over and over and over from clients. 139 00:07:00,336 --> 00:07:02,004 I don't want to be that person. 140 00:07:02,004 --> 00:07:05,007 It's hard to engage the counseling process in some ways 141 00:07:05,007 --> 00:07:06,717 because it means talking about your pain. 142 00:07:06,717 --> 00:07:07,969 It means receiving empathy. 143 00:07:07,969 --> 00:07:10,012 It means telling your story. 144 00:07:10,012 --> 00:07:11,848 But many people are very hesitant 145 00:07:12,932 --> 00:07:14,725 to talk about their pain. 146 00:07:14,725 --> 00:07:16,561 It's one thing if it's somebody else's pain. 147 00:07:16,561 --> 00:07:18,688 But if I talk about my pain, 148 00:07:18,688 --> 00:07:21,399 that means I'm making a big deal about me and about my suffering. 149 00:07:21,399 --> 00:07:22,567 I think there's just something 150 00:07:22,567 --> 00:07:26,779 really deep in our culture that we are very reluctant 151 00:07:28,072 --> 00:07:30,324 to express ourselves too much. 152 00:07:30,324 --> 00:07:32,869 And maybe that's too much of a generalization, 153 00:07:32,869 --> 00:07:35,872 but I think that there are things in our culture 154 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:39,834 that make it difficult for us to credit suffering too much 155 00:07:40,668 --> 00:07:42,920 when it's our own suffering, but maybe even 156 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:45,923 when it's other people's suffering. 157 00:07:46,007 --> 00:07:50,678 So there are some unique challenges that I think we have with our subculture. 158 00:07:50,887 --> 00:07:54,348 Just around struggle in general, 159 00:07:54,515 --> 00:07:57,518 suffering in general. 160 00:07:58,102 --> 00:08:01,063 Emotional struggle, mental suffering. 161 00:08:01,647 --> 00:08:04,317 Sometimes we view it as weakness. 162 00:08:04,317 --> 00:08:08,613 That's a construction that people often put on their pain or their trauma. 163 00:08:08,654 --> 00:08:12,950 So again, the issue of how long it takes to get over it if if it takes me, 164 00:08:13,159 --> 00:08:18,080 if 20 years later, I'm still impacted by, let's say, sexual abuse 165 00:08:18,831 --> 00:08:21,751 or that means that I'm weak, for example. 166 00:08:22,793 --> 00:08:23,878 So I think we really ought 167 00:08:23,878 --> 00:08:27,590 to be reflective about our beliefs about suffering, 168 00:08:27,590 --> 00:08:31,469 our beliefs about struggle, our beliefs about emotions. 169 00:08:32,512 --> 00:08:35,097 Yeah. 170 00:08:35,097 --> 00:08:38,059 I think one of the things that 171 00:08:38,476 --> 00:08:41,187 bothers me a bit is people 172 00:08:41,187 --> 00:08:44,398 that may have went through some of these experiences. 173 00:08:44,607 --> 00:08:47,109 There's that tape running in the head of 174 00:08:47,109 --> 00:08:50,112 oh it's, it's this shouldn't be a big deal. 175 00:08:50,112 --> 00:08:51,864 I should get over this. It's no big, you know. 176 00:08:51,864 --> 00:08:57,036 And so then maybe they're less likely to, get help or something. 177 00:08:57,245 --> 00:09:00,456 Again, I'm speaking generalizations because I don't have the experience here. 178 00:09:00,915 --> 00:09:01,749 And maybe this. 179 00:09:01,749 --> 00:09:03,960 I guess I should say this more like a question. 180 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:08,839 But then maybe they have tried to reach out, you know, and they get shut down. 181 00:09:08,839 --> 00:09:11,050 Or again, back to that stigma thing. 182 00:09:11,050 --> 00:09:12,718 It was like, come on, that happened to you, 183 00:09:12,718 --> 00:09:14,178 you know, like eight years ago or whatever. 184 00:09:14,178 --> 00:09:16,222 And like, you know, you should be past that by now. 185 00:09:16,222 --> 00:09:16,389 Yeah. 186 00:09:16,389 --> 00:09:21,227 I've heard comments like that made, you know, multiple times towards 187 00:09:21,227 --> 00:09:24,272 someone who maybe went through something that was difficult and they're like, what? 188 00:09:24,272 --> 00:09:26,857 What? That was like years ago. What's what's the big deal, you know? 189 00:09:26,857 --> 00:09:30,152 And it's again, coming back to that stigma. 190 00:09:30,528 --> 00:09:33,364 I'm not really sure if that's even really a question or an observation. 191 00:09:33,364 --> 00:09:36,284 I'd be curious how you would, you know, if you have a response to that? 192 00:09:36,284 --> 00:09:36,492 Yeah. 193 00:09:36,492 --> 00:09:39,495 I mean, we certainly hear lots of stories like that. 194 00:09:39,537 --> 00:09:40,997 Here's a common response. 195 00:09:40,997 --> 00:09:44,375 And I think it comes from a good place, a very well-intentioned place. 196 00:09:44,375 --> 00:09:47,378 But many times we try to be encouraging 197 00:09:47,628 --> 00:09:50,047 by pointing out the positive. 198 00:09:51,048 --> 00:09:55,553 You know, this comes up in the context of loss, for example. 199 00:09:55,553 --> 00:09:58,556 Well, you still have three other children or 200 00:09:58,764 --> 00:10:01,267 or she's in heaven or whatever. 201 00:10:01,267 --> 00:10:05,771 And man, I mean, God bless people for trying to be encouraging, right? 202 00:10:05,771 --> 00:10:08,065 I mean, you can you can really 203 00:10:08,065 --> 00:10:11,027 I think we need to credit people's heart and people's intentions. 204 00:10:11,027 --> 00:10:14,864 But many times our attempts to be encouraging or positive 205 00:10:15,281 --> 00:10:19,201 just have the impact of of invalidating people's feelings. 206 00:10:19,744 --> 00:10:22,622 One of the things I just think is so helpful 207 00:10:22,622 --> 00:10:26,334 to appreciate is that yes, people need to be encouraged. 208 00:10:27,126 --> 00:10:29,545 They need to be lifted up, 209 00:10:29,545 --> 00:10:31,589 but they also need to be validated. 210 00:10:31,589 --> 00:10:35,301 And many times people find it much easier to feel better 211 00:10:35,301 --> 00:10:39,263 and have a positive outlook on life when they're distressed. 212 00:10:39,263 --> 00:10:40,806 Feelings have been validated. 213 00:10:41,766 --> 00:10:44,602 When somebody says I get it I get what you're going through. 214 00:10:44,602 --> 00:10:47,605 Now I know you can go too far with that. 215 00:10:47,730 --> 00:10:50,733 I mean we in the counseling world try not to just 216 00:10:50,733 --> 00:10:54,695 wallow in negativity and you know, 217 00:10:55,988 --> 00:10:58,741 but I think so many people 218 00:10:58,741 --> 00:11:02,953 who are trying to help other, you know, friends or family or whoever, 219 00:11:04,372 --> 00:11:07,375 their attempts to be encouraging 220 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:10,711 end up being unintentionally invalidating. 221 00:11:10,711 --> 00:11:12,421 And, you know, that's not what. 222 00:11:12,421 --> 00:11:16,217 That's not what any of us need, whether we're at a trauma history or otherwise. 223 00:11:17,551 --> 00:11:21,263 So back to okay. 224 00:11:21,263 --> 00:11:24,266 So we have stigmas right that surround this. 225 00:11:24,517 --> 00:11:28,062 And then what are maybe some healthier ways we could respond. 226 00:11:28,354 --> 00:11:32,149 I'm going to use a Just a minor example. 227 00:11:32,149 --> 00:11:34,151 And I'm curious to hear what you think of this. 228 00:11:34,151 --> 00:11:38,239 I had interaction with, someone who had went through some very difficult things, 229 00:11:38,656 --> 00:11:39,573 on the mission 230 00:11:39,573 --> 00:11:43,494 field and had come back and didn't really know what to do with that. 231 00:11:43,494 --> 00:11:44,912 And, yeah, just it was a challenge. 232 00:11:44,912 --> 00:11:46,497 And it had been years before. 233 00:11:46,497 --> 00:11:50,209 And then that person started working with a totally separate group of people 234 00:11:50,918 --> 00:11:54,088 that had also done some mission work that was very similar 235 00:11:54,088 --> 00:11:55,798 and went through a very similar thing. 236 00:11:55,798 --> 00:11:59,343 And that was a very healing process for that person. 237 00:11:59,343 --> 00:12:02,054 And it wasn't it wasn't like a structured thing. 238 00:12:02,054 --> 00:12:02,763 It wasn't like, oh, 239 00:12:02,763 --> 00:12:05,141 this is our project person that we're going to all help, you know. 240 00:12:05,141 --> 00:12:07,560 It wasn't that at all, but it was really neat, actually. 241 00:12:07,560 --> 00:12:10,646 See that person to kind of kind of open up and start blossoming again. 242 00:12:10,980 --> 00:12:13,774 Is there a power in that? 243 00:12:13,774 --> 00:12:14,108 Yeah. 244 00:12:14,108 --> 00:12:16,402 Like, these were these weren't even people that really knew each other 245 00:12:16,402 --> 00:12:19,405 that deeply is just through osmosis, I guess. 246 00:12:19,488 --> 00:12:19,989 Be curious. 247 00:12:19,989 --> 00:12:22,742 Yeah, some feedback on that. 248 00:12:22,742 --> 00:12:25,077 Like, I'm just kind of looking for what are some healthy ways 249 00:12:25,077 --> 00:12:27,496 that we can engage with people that that have this. 250 00:12:27,496 --> 00:12:29,582 I love it. I love that story. 251 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:33,335 And I'm just thinking if somebody had come along and said, 252 00:12:33,335 --> 00:12:37,590 oh, you had traumatizing experiences on the mission field, let's fix you. 253 00:12:37,673 --> 00:12:39,800 Let's tell you what you need to do here. 254 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:42,803 And probably it would have been a very different experience. 255 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:44,638 Yeah. 256 00:12:44,638 --> 00:12:47,641 Obviously there's a place for being intentional of course, but 257 00:12:47,975 --> 00:12:52,938 one of the things I hear that stories the power of shared experience, the power 258 00:12:52,938 --> 00:12:57,443 of relating to other people who have had similar experiences or similar stories, 259 00:12:57,443 --> 00:13:03,073 and that is so helpful for trauma, for addiction, for mental health. 260 00:13:03,783 --> 00:13:06,786 Is it it's kind of this. 261 00:13:07,953 --> 00:13:10,414 It can help that person feel. 262 00:13:10,414 --> 00:13:13,501 I, I'm not the only person in the whole world that's had this, you know. 263 00:13:13,542 --> 00:13:16,587 Because I think that's the one thing. 264 00:13:16,879 --> 00:13:18,130 Like, yeah. 265 00:13:18,130 --> 00:13:21,258 No, you're not the only person in the world that's had that experience. 266 00:13:21,425 --> 00:13:23,302 I mean, you know. 267 00:13:23,302 --> 00:13:26,972 And that was definitely the sense I got from this person. 268 00:13:26,972 --> 00:13:28,432 And to watch that process. 269 00:13:28,432 --> 00:13:30,810 And they were like, oh, wow, I'm not the only one 270 00:13:30,810 --> 00:13:34,063 who went through this and really struggled in this way or whatever. 271 00:13:34,271 --> 00:13:37,358 And it's one thing to just know that I mean most of us 272 00:13:38,025 --> 00:13:40,444 oh I think this is generally to 273 00:13:40,444 --> 00:13:43,906 we know notionally all of these different things. 274 00:13:43,906 --> 00:13:46,367 At least a lot of them, a lot of the most life giving things. 275 00:13:46,367 --> 00:13:46,992 We know them. 276 00:13:46,992 --> 00:13:49,995 But to have the experience of relating to someone 277 00:13:50,079 --> 00:13:52,373 who has been through the same thing or hearing their story 278 00:13:52,373 --> 00:13:57,253 and actually have a group around you in real life that you can interact with, 279 00:13:57,545 --> 00:14:01,757 right, versus knowing that those people are out there in some kind of sense. 280 00:14:01,799 --> 00:14:04,718 I mean, maybe they're there somewhere. Yeah. 281 00:14:04,718 --> 00:14:06,011 Is this something that 282 00:14:07,596 --> 00:14:10,349 when we're looking at 283 00:14:10,349 --> 00:14:13,352 going through something that say was traumatic, 284 00:14:13,602 --> 00:14:16,689 the healing process is 285 00:14:17,940 --> 00:14:20,818 not necessarily in isolation like that? 286 00:14:20,818 --> 00:14:24,405 You we keep coming back to other people in the process. 287 00:14:24,947 --> 00:14:27,783 Being part of, of, 288 00:14:27,783 --> 00:14:31,829 a more healthy response versus some of the stigmas where it is. 289 00:14:31,829 --> 00:14:34,832 I guess what I'm trying to say is, I'm sure there's listeners 290 00:14:34,832 --> 00:14:35,958 hearing this saying, 291 00:14:35,958 --> 00:14:37,960 oh, yeah, I like I know someone who went through 292 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:39,879 that, that, that was a really that was really tough. 293 00:14:39,879 --> 00:14:42,965 And I think they're struggling and they're thinking, well, what can I do to help? 294 00:14:43,465 --> 00:14:46,468 It seems like we keep coming around to 295 00:14:47,011 --> 00:14:50,306 other people being involved in some way or another. 296 00:14:50,347 --> 00:14:54,894 What are what are ways that people listening to this like, hey, I could 297 00:14:55,144 --> 00:14:58,522 I could be of help or I don't even know how to frame that because 298 00:14:59,648 --> 00:15:01,191 each situation is different, Yeah. 299 00:15:01,191 --> 00:15:04,194 Yeah, that's that's that's true. 300 00:15:04,820 --> 00:15:09,408 So knowing your role and staying in your lane, I think is pretty important. 301 00:15:09,450 --> 00:15:11,994 So it makes so much difference. Are you a pastor? 302 00:15:11,994 --> 00:15:15,998 Is it a close family member or is it, is it, 303 00:15:15,998 --> 00:15:19,335 a next door neighbor or are you a mentor to this person? 304 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:23,881 One of the things I think is so important is it really is okay 305 00:15:23,923 --> 00:15:28,052 to just be whatever your role is, to just be that. 306 00:15:28,052 --> 00:15:31,055 And so if you're a friend of someone who has a trauma history, 307 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:34,141 you don't have to be their counselor. 308 00:15:34,141 --> 00:15:35,809 You don't have to be their pastor. 309 00:15:35,809 --> 00:15:38,020 You don't have to be their life coach. 310 00:15:38,020 --> 00:15:39,980 It's okay to just be their friend. 311 00:15:39,980 --> 00:15:42,274 Even if they continue struggling, right? 312 00:15:42,274 --> 00:15:44,109 I think it could be easy to feel like 313 00:15:45,194 --> 00:15:46,320 me being a friend of 314 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:49,782 this person, supporting this person, being available for them. 315 00:15:50,491 --> 00:15:54,119 What good is this if they're not getting better? 316 00:15:55,204 --> 00:15:57,581 And so I need to do more and get more involved. 317 00:15:57,581 --> 00:16:03,796 One of the things I think we see a lot from a counseling perspective is loved 318 00:16:03,796 --> 00:16:09,093 ones or mentors who become overinvolved in unhealthy ways. Now. 319 00:16:09,927 --> 00:16:13,305 I hesitate to make too much of that because we want people 320 00:16:13,305 --> 00:16:15,432 to be more involved. We want more community. 321 00:16:15,432 --> 00:16:19,728 We want more help and support for for any number of struggles. 322 00:16:20,854 --> 00:16:25,985 But the wrong kind of involvement often is counterproductive. 323 00:16:26,068 --> 00:16:30,781 And I think what happens is when a friend stops being a friend 324 00:16:31,490 --> 00:16:34,118 because they're anxious about the suffering 325 00:16:34,118 --> 00:16:37,121 and they want to fix it. 326 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:39,331 It's okay to just be a friend. 327 00:16:39,331 --> 00:16:44,253 It's okay to just be supportive and point them to other additional resources. 328 00:16:44,253 --> 00:16:45,879 You know, stay in your lane. 329 00:16:47,798 --> 00:16:49,967 That partially answers your question. 330 00:16:49,967 --> 00:16:53,303 That's I think that yeah that's really good though. 331 00:16:54,013 --> 00:16:57,016 And also I'm getting a sense 332 00:16:57,307 --> 00:16:59,351 from you that you wouldn't want to treat this as. 333 00:16:59,351 --> 00:17:02,104 Okay. This is, this is the project person I'm working on. 334 00:17:02,104 --> 00:17:05,024 You know I'm trying to fix this or. 335 00:17:05,024 --> 00:17:05,983 Yeah, whatever. 336 00:17:05,983 --> 00:17:07,901 it's hard to. 337 00:17:07,901 --> 00:17:10,320 It's hard to. 338 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:12,448 Man. I want to choose my words carefully. 339 00:17:12,448 --> 00:17:15,451 It's hard to tolerate 340 00:17:16,326 --> 00:17:17,870 another person's suffering. 341 00:17:17,870 --> 00:17:21,206 When I say tolerate, I don't mean to be indifferent to, obviously, 342 00:17:22,041 --> 00:17:25,210 but there is a sense in which we really have to come to terms 343 00:17:25,210 --> 00:17:29,131 with the ongoing suffering of people in our lives. 344 00:17:30,257 --> 00:17:32,926 I have to be okay with the fact 345 00:17:32,926 --> 00:17:37,097 that this isn't going away right away, and that's hard. 346 00:17:37,097 --> 00:17:38,348 And that's where compassion is. 347 00:17:38,348 --> 00:17:42,102 I mean, the literal meaning of compassion is to suffer with to share the suffering. 348 00:17:42,269 --> 00:17:45,731 And many times what we want to do is get rid of the suffering. 349 00:17:45,731 --> 00:17:49,568 And again that comes from a good place, that comes from, from mercy, 350 00:17:49,568 --> 00:17:52,571 that comes from our desire for their good. 351 00:17:52,654 --> 00:17:56,950 But if I can't tolerate what you're going through, 352 00:17:57,993 --> 00:18:00,704 unintentionally, that ends up again invalidating 353 00:18:00,704 --> 00:18:03,499 the other person's experience. And it's so much harder to be with them. 354 00:18:03,499 --> 00:18:07,461 You can't be with a person and be connected to a person. 355 00:18:07,461 --> 00:18:12,049 And if you can't tolerate their experience, does that make sense? 356 00:18:12,341 --> 00:18:13,175 It does. 357 00:18:13,175 --> 00:18:14,301 Yeah it does. 358 00:18:14,301 --> 00:18:18,347 And I feel like there's a there's that's an important piece 359 00:18:18,347 --> 00:18:21,308 because it's easy to want to go down the street of. 360 00:18:21,308 --> 00:18:23,352 Well okay well here's the checklist. 361 00:18:23,352 --> 00:18:24,186 You know and okay 362 00:18:24,186 --> 00:18:28,398 once we check these boxes boom we’re fixed and humans just aren't really that way. 363 00:18:28,482 --> 00:18:29,858 Exactly. 364 00:18:29,858 --> 00:18:30,567 Yeah. Yeah. 365 00:18:30,567 --> 00:18:32,528 Like, that's just 366 00:18:32,528 --> 00:18:34,404 it's, 367 00:18:34,404 --> 00:18:37,199 There's a, there's a real sense in which trauma is relational. 368 00:18:37,199 --> 00:18:43,956 So it relational in this sense there's a difference 369 00:18:43,956 --> 00:18:49,378 between experiencing emotional pain when you're connected to someone 370 00:18:50,129 --> 00:18:54,299 in the experience and experiencing emotional pain when you're alone. 371 00:18:55,259 --> 00:18:57,928 And many, many, many people have been traumatized. 372 00:19:00,139 --> 00:19:00,806 A root 373 00:19:00,806 --> 00:19:04,643 issue I'm not going to say the root issue, but a root issue is that their traumatic 374 00:19:04,643 --> 00:19:08,397 experiences happened when they were alone or when they were not connected. 375 00:19:08,397 --> 00:19:11,108 Or maybe there was someone physically present 376 00:19:11,108 --> 00:19:14,278 who was treating them aggressively, but they weren't connected. 377 00:19:14,903 --> 00:19:17,531 And that lack of connection, that being in pain 378 00:19:17,531 --> 00:19:20,534 and being alone in the experience, 379 00:19:20,784 --> 00:19:24,580 in many ways, that is the trauma, in many ways that defines the trauma. 380 00:19:24,955 --> 00:19:28,250 And so the healing that can come from being with a person 381 00:19:28,792 --> 00:19:31,295 in their suffering, 382 00:19:31,295 --> 00:19:33,922 not trying to fix it, 383 00:19:33,922 --> 00:19:35,674 not trying to be the answer person. 384 00:19:35,674 --> 00:19:38,677 In many ways, that is the healing. 385 00:19:39,344 --> 00:19:40,846 That's powerful that 386 00:19:40,846 --> 00:19:43,849 that concept of with like with someone. 387 00:19:43,891 --> 00:19:46,852 I think when, when we had had a call before 388 00:19:46,852 --> 00:19:49,479 before this when we were kind of talking through like hey yeah. 389 00:19:49,479 --> 00:19:51,648 What do we want to do to get on the podcast? 390 00:19:51,648 --> 00:19:54,776 You had mentioned something like this, and I feel like that's pretty relevant. 391 00:19:55,402 --> 00:19:58,947 Well, you used the word withness, Was that it withness and you. 392 00:19:58,947 --> 00:20:03,744 You'd said something like, sitting with people through through this 393 00:20:03,744 --> 00:20:06,747 or like being there with this sense of with people, 394 00:20:07,164 --> 00:20:10,250 which is very different than saying, oh, this is a project and here's a checklist. 395 00:20:10,250 --> 00:20:13,795 And we're going to fix it, you know, with one, two and three, things. 396 00:20:14,171 --> 00:20:16,548 There's something beautiful about that. 397 00:20:16,548 --> 00:20:17,174 You know. 398 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:19,760 And there's 399 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:24,139 this one that's a theme throughout scripture to, Emmanuel, God with us. 400 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:27,726 You know, in tabernacle, God tenting with us 401 00:20:27,726 --> 00:20:31,230 or dwelling down with us, etc., etc.. 402 00:20:31,230 --> 00:20:33,732 You can trace this all through Scripture. Yeah. 403 00:20:33,732 --> 00:20:36,193 And then that's how the book of 404 00:20:36,193 --> 00:20:38,654 revelation and the whole Bible really ends with 405 00:20:38,654 --> 00:20:41,657 God coming down to be with his people. 406 00:20:41,907 --> 00:20:45,702 That concept of with is just really powerful and potent. 407 00:20:46,370 --> 00:20:49,623 and knowing and experiencing God is with us in our pain 408 00:20:49,623 --> 00:20:52,626 or even in memories of our pain. 409 00:20:53,126 --> 00:20:56,380 Now I do want to just quickly say there is certainly a place for tools. 410 00:20:56,380 --> 00:20:58,799 There's certainly a place for the practical and the nitty gritty. 411 00:20:58,799 --> 00:21:02,219 Everything here is not just relational. 412 00:21:03,053 --> 00:21:05,514 For sure. There's a whole other side to it. 413 00:21:05,514 --> 00:21:07,349 But Yeah. And I think that's 414 00:21:08,392 --> 00:21:10,227 definitely the disclaimer to give to I mean 415 00:21:10,227 --> 00:21:12,020 we are talking in pretty general terms. 416 00:21:12,020 --> 00:21:13,313 Every situation is different. 417 00:21:13,313 --> 00:21:17,567 Trauma is a very multifaceted very complex 418 00:21:17,567 --> 00:21:20,862 subject fraught with disclaimers or the need for disclaimers. 419 00:21:21,863 --> 00:21:24,866 But with with what we were just saying. 420 00:21:25,409 --> 00:21:28,537 Feels like it, transitions nicely for for another question to have for you. 421 00:21:29,079 --> 00:21:31,832 So how can we be gracious and caring 422 00:21:31,832 --> 00:21:34,835 for those that are suffering trauma? 423 00:21:35,419 --> 00:21:38,130 So I think doing our own work 424 00:21:38,130 --> 00:21:41,133 is helpful, for one thing. 425 00:21:41,466 --> 00:21:44,886 So not everyone has experienced trauma per se, unless you define it 426 00:21:44,886 --> 00:21:46,430 in the broadest sense. 427 00:21:46,430 --> 00:21:48,724 But we've all suffered in some way. 428 00:21:48,724 --> 00:21:53,437 We've all struggled in some way, and I think the people who do the best work, 429 00:21:53,437 --> 00:21:57,357 the people that are best friends, the best mentors to the traumatized, 430 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:00,986 have a sense of their own pain, 431 00:22:00,986 --> 00:22:04,823 their own struggle in life, and have received 432 00:22:04,948 --> 00:22:09,244 compassion from others and, from the Lord know how to bring it to the Lord. 433 00:22:09,244 --> 00:22:12,414 Know how to identify and work through their own feelings. 434 00:22:12,456 --> 00:22:13,832 I think that really helps. 435 00:22:13,832 --> 00:22:18,337 I think that's really good stewardship of of our own souls 436 00:22:18,337 --> 00:22:21,340 and gives us more to offer other people. 437 00:22:22,758 --> 00:22:25,594 I think curiosity is so important. 438 00:22:25,594 --> 00:22:27,721 So it's so easy to come in with theories 439 00:22:27,721 --> 00:22:31,767 and with agendas, and you need this or you need that. 440 00:22:31,767 --> 00:22:33,810 And I think we just need to be curious. 441 00:22:33,810 --> 00:22:36,438 I think we need to ask people, what do you need? 442 00:22:36,438 --> 00:22:37,814 What are you struggling with? 443 00:22:37,814 --> 00:22:40,817 What would be helpful for you? 444 00:22:41,526 --> 00:22:42,569 What is your story? 445 00:22:42,569 --> 00:22:45,489 Now again, it depends on your lane, right? 446 00:22:45,489 --> 00:22:46,865 Because there are some people that, 447 00:22:48,700 --> 00:22:52,120 you know, depending on your role, maybe they shouldn't be telling you their story. 448 00:22:52,120 --> 00:22:54,915 That's for them to decide who they tell their story to. 449 00:22:54,915 --> 00:22:56,375 That's it's deeply personal. 450 00:22:56,375 --> 00:22:59,961 But but depending on your role, you know, asking questions. 451 00:23:00,629 --> 00:23:02,506 Being curious. 452 00:23:02,506 --> 00:23:06,176 I think hearing the stories of the traumatized is so helpful. 453 00:23:06,218 --> 00:23:11,348 I think that helps us get at a visceral level 454 00:23:11,973 --> 00:23:15,894 how much people have suffered and what people go through 455 00:23:17,354 --> 00:23:20,357 and and just being educated on the issue. 456 00:23:21,024 --> 00:23:23,652 So as we look at this whole package, I guess you could say 457 00:23:23,652 --> 00:23:27,739 or this topic, we've explored different avenues and things. 458 00:23:27,739 --> 00:23:33,745 Let's, let's bring it down to something really practical to round it out 459 00:23:33,745 --> 00:23:36,873 and end this episode with, again, for those that are listening to this 460 00:23:37,916 --> 00:23:39,501 real practical, what are lists, 461 00:23:39,501 --> 00:23:42,462 something that the listeners can do right now to help? 462 00:23:42,587 --> 00:23:44,923 Is there places they should go to learn more? 463 00:23:44,923 --> 00:23:49,302 Is there, you know, simple things, even first steps that they can take, 464 00:23:49,761 --> 00:23:54,975 to start being part of that or to, to start helping those around them 465 00:23:54,975 --> 00:23:57,978 that that may have suffered a traumatic experience. 466 00:23:58,895 --> 00:24:02,023 So you're talking this is from the helpers perspective. 467 00:24:02,190 --> 00:24:03,817 Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. 468 00:24:03,817 --> 00:24:06,945 A listener whose is hearing this and they're like, wow, I, you know, 469 00:24:07,404 --> 00:24:10,407 I want to help in some way. 470 00:24:10,657 --> 00:24:13,618 What's the what's a real practical, just first step that they can take. 471 00:24:13,618 --> 00:24:17,414 So again not to sound like a broken record 472 00:24:17,414 --> 00:24:20,834 but if, if this fits with your role in their life. 473 00:24:21,418 --> 00:24:23,378 Help them find a trauma therapist. 474 00:24:24,838 --> 00:24:26,423 Now that is a 475 00:24:26,423 --> 00:24:29,426 difficult topic for a variety of reasons. 476 00:24:29,759 --> 00:24:30,343 Yeah. 477 00:24:30,343 --> 00:24:33,054 I was going to say I agree with you for sure. 478 00:24:33,054 --> 00:24:34,306 I was actually just interacting 479 00:24:34,306 --> 00:24:37,851 with someone recently and I was encouraging them on that. 480 00:24:38,435 --> 00:24:39,352 On that track. 481 00:24:39,352 --> 00:24:41,897 And that person was like, oh, I just never thought of that. 482 00:24:41,897 --> 00:24:44,441 That's really helpful. Yeah. Like, can you help me with that process? 483 00:24:44,441 --> 00:24:45,150 So that worked out. 484 00:24:45,150 --> 00:24:46,568 But then sometimes there's again, 485 00:24:46,568 --> 00:24:50,113 there's a stigma around these things and people like, oh, I don't, you know. 486 00:24:51,031 --> 00:24:52,491 But anyways, yeah. 487 00:24:52,491 --> 00:24:55,827 so it might be helpful to back up just a little bit and 488 00:24:57,579 --> 00:24:58,872 let's talk about the field 489 00:24:58,872 --> 00:25:01,917 of people helping and counseling in therapy. 490 00:25:01,917 --> 00:25:04,628 One of the things that could be helpful to know is 491 00:25:04,628 --> 00:25:09,633 this is an extremely diverse field, very diverse. 492 00:25:09,674 --> 00:25:11,718 There are coaches, life coaches. 493 00:25:11,718 --> 00:25:14,262 There are marriage counselors. 494 00:25:14,262 --> 00:25:17,140 There are addiction counselors. There are. 495 00:25:17,140 --> 00:25:20,602 And then in addition to all that, there's all these different models. 496 00:25:20,602 --> 00:25:23,104 I mean, there's no end to the number of models. 497 00:25:23,104 --> 00:25:27,359 It's a very bewildering alphabet soup of of different theories. 498 00:25:28,693 --> 00:25:29,694 So what am I saying? 499 00:25:29,694 --> 00:25:34,241 That I'm saying that people helping is about specialties, 500 00:25:34,783 --> 00:25:37,786 probably more than it used to be. 501 00:25:37,953 --> 00:25:40,038 Now, it's certainly true that if you go to a therapist, 502 00:25:40,038 --> 00:25:42,499 they're probably going to be prepared to deal with any number of issues. 503 00:25:42,499 --> 00:25:45,502 That's that's certainly true. 504 00:25:45,585 --> 00:25:48,588 But I guess what I'm saying is that trauma therapy is a fairly 505 00:25:48,922 --> 00:25:52,425 specific, specialized kind of work. 506 00:25:52,425 --> 00:25:55,470 Or it can be that can be helpful context. 507 00:25:57,639 --> 00:25:58,974 Why do I say it's difficult? 508 00:25:58,974 --> 00:26:03,270 So one reason is, in spite of what I just said about specialties, 509 00:26:03,270 --> 00:26:06,273 if you go online and look at a therapist profile, 510 00:26:06,565 --> 00:26:10,527 the chances are it will say that they work with trauma, right? 511 00:26:10,569 --> 00:26:15,323 I mean, most therapists, when they list their qualifications, 512 00:26:16,241 --> 00:26:17,909 they're saying, I work with this and this. 513 00:26:17,909 --> 00:26:18,326 And, you know, 514 00:26:18,326 --> 00:26:19,244 they try to make it 515 00:26:19,244 --> 00:26:22,247 as inclusive as possible because they want to get more and more clients. 516 00:26:22,998 --> 00:26:28,628 So it can be challenging to find someone who is actually a specialist in trauma. 517 00:26:30,589 --> 00:26:33,550 I think, 518 00:26:34,134 --> 00:26:35,802 experience going for 519 00:26:35,802 --> 00:26:38,805 an experienced therapist is really good. 520 00:26:38,930 --> 00:26:41,808 I think networking with people who are somewhat familiar with 521 00:26:41,808 --> 00:26:43,059 the field is really good. 522 00:26:43,059 --> 00:26:46,062 Knowing someone who knows something about 523 00:26:46,688 --> 00:26:49,608 counseling therapy, who can make recommendations. 524 00:26:49,608 --> 00:26:52,569 Sometimes they're doctors, they can make recommendations. 525 00:26:53,778 --> 00:26:56,781 But yeah, it's it's kind of. 526 00:26:57,324 --> 00:26:57,616 Yeah. 527 00:26:57,616 --> 00:27:00,201 Go online and Google trauma therapists. 528 00:27:00,201 --> 00:27:04,122 It can be bewildering, you know, to, Yeah. 529 00:27:04,122 --> 00:27:05,749 How do you find someone like that? 530 00:27:05,749 --> 00:27:09,377 And how do you find out what their qualifications really are? 531 00:27:11,004 --> 00:27:14,007 So I feel like that's kind of a. 532 00:27:16,134 --> 00:27:17,010 I feel like that doesn't 533 00:27:17,010 --> 00:27:20,013 give people a lot to work with. 534 00:27:21,139 --> 00:27:24,100 So how do you find them? 535 00:27:24,100 --> 00:27:25,393 That's an issue. But. 536 00:27:25,393 --> 00:27:28,772 But there are really good people out there that do really good work. 537 00:27:30,065 --> 00:27:31,983 I think part of what I was trying to say earlier 538 00:27:31,983 --> 00:27:36,363 about the variety of, of different, people helping 539 00:27:37,739 --> 00:27:39,240 fields. 540 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:41,951 Just because someone is a counselor or a therapist 541 00:27:41,951 --> 00:27:44,913 doesn't mean they necessarily know how to work with trauma. 542 00:27:45,747 --> 00:27:48,249 They may offer really good things and may do really good work, 543 00:27:48,249 --> 00:27:50,293 but it's not necessarily the same thing. 544 00:27:50,293 --> 00:27:54,798 It is a specialized kind of work and just incredible tools have been developed. 545 00:27:55,507 --> 00:27:57,884 They're amazing things that have been discovered 546 00:27:57,884 --> 00:28:00,887 that can be so helpful. 547 00:28:00,887 --> 00:28:01,179 Yeah. 548 00:28:01,179 --> 00:28:04,182 This is wow. Yeah. 549 00:28:04,182 --> 00:28:06,059 It's a lot to think about you know. 550 00:28:06,059 --> 00:28:09,646 And and it can be hard because it's like 551 00:28:09,646 --> 00:28:12,732 especially if you do you go through something traumatic. 552 00:28:12,899 --> 00:28:16,152 Sometimes it's just like hard to even recognize that it happened. 553 00:28:16,152 --> 00:28:17,904 I know there was there was something that happened to me, 554 00:28:17,904 --> 00:28:21,074 a number of years ago, and at the time, it didn't even register. 555 00:28:21,074 --> 00:28:22,117 But then years later, remember? Wow. 556 00:28:22,117 --> 00:28:23,827 Like that actually, that that did affect 557 00:28:23,827 --> 00:28:27,580 me, you know, and didn't really realize it, like, for a while. 558 00:28:27,747 --> 00:28:29,958 It takes a while for it to sink in or. 559 00:28:29,958 --> 00:28:31,835 Yeah, it was just there, whoa, wait. 560 00:28:31,835 --> 00:28:33,878 Like out of left field, you know, four years later or whatever 561 00:28:33,878 --> 00:28:36,339 it was, it's like, where did that, you know? 562 00:28:36,339 --> 00:28:38,425 And, and so what I'm saying it. 563 00:28:38,425 --> 00:28:42,512 Yeah, it it can be it can be really hard, you know, to like, 564 00:28:42,721 --> 00:28:43,972 figure all this stuff out. 565 00:28:43,972 --> 00:28:46,975 So, I feel like you gave us some really good stuff. 566 00:28:47,058 --> 00:28:50,061 I feel like there's a lot to think about here with what you shared. 567 00:28:50,311 --> 00:28:55,024 As we tie this up, or is there anything you'd want to end this episode with? 568 00:28:55,024 --> 00:28:56,776 Something you want to leave the listeners with? 569 00:28:56,776 --> 00:29:00,989 So the one thing we haven't really gotten into is from the standpoint 570 00:29:00,989 --> 00:29:04,534 of the trauma sufferer, what is helpful for them. 571 00:29:05,034 --> 00:29:10,206 And I think that's really a good place to to land the plane for a bit. 572 00:29:12,417 --> 00:29:13,835 A lot of things and 573 00:29:13,835 --> 00:29:17,088 obviously it depends on the kind of trauma and the personal history. 574 00:29:17,088 --> 00:29:20,091 But one thing I always encourage is 575 00:29:20,300 --> 00:29:23,303 do things that are relaxing, 576 00:29:23,845 --> 00:29:28,767 calming, soothing, rejuvenating, energizing. 577 00:29:29,058 --> 00:29:32,228 Many people who deal with trauma have chronic anxiety. 578 00:29:32,228 --> 00:29:34,105 That's one of the 579 00:29:34,105 --> 00:29:37,358 most difficult byproducts of trauma, 580 00:29:38,318 --> 00:29:41,654 chronic anxiety or anxiety that suddenly gets triggered by, 581 00:29:43,156 --> 00:29:46,159 by a trauma trigger. And, 582 00:29:47,118 --> 00:29:49,496 This doesn't heal the deepest places of the heart, 583 00:29:49,496 --> 00:29:51,539 obviously, but it sure can help. 584 00:29:51,539 --> 00:29:53,875 So exercise is really good. 585 00:29:53,875 --> 00:29:55,710 Deep breathing is really good. 586 00:29:55,710 --> 00:29:58,713 Muscle relaxation is really good. 587 00:29:58,838 --> 00:30:02,175 It's amazing the different state of mind a person can get in 588 00:30:02,217 --> 00:30:05,220 as their body is being relaxed. 589 00:30:06,262 --> 00:30:08,973 So that's something that I think is really helpful. 590 00:30:08,973 --> 00:30:10,433 It's helpful to know your feelings. 591 00:30:10,433 --> 00:30:12,018 It's helpful to name your feelings. 592 00:30:12,018 --> 00:30:14,771 Journaling can be a powerful way to do that. 593 00:30:14,771 --> 00:30:17,315 It's really helpful to know your trauma triggers. 594 00:30:17,315 --> 00:30:22,654 So if a person can see it coming ahead of time when this happens 595 00:30:22,654 --> 00:30:27,742 or this situation or this person, these things tend to trigger my trauma. 596 00:30:29,577 --> 00:30:30,537 To really get into that, 597 00:30:30,537 --> 00:30:33,581 we'd have to talk more about triggers and what all that means, you know? 598 00:30:33,581 --> 00:30:36,793 But but I think the more people understand 599 00:30:36,793 --> 00:30:40,964 their individual trauma profile, the better they tend to do. 600 00:30:42,048 --> 00:30:45,635 So. So many people, they're experiencing trauma 601 00:30:47,095 --> 00:30:49,764 or the effects of past trauma, 602 00:30:49,764 --> 00:30:52,767 but they don't really understand what's happening to them. 603 00:30:53,601 --> 00:30:56,271 And that really makes it so much harder, right? 604 00:30:56,271 --> 00:30:57,897 That's got to be confusing. 605 00:30:57,897 --> 00:30:59,482 Right. Or disorienting. 606 00:30:59,482 --> 00:31:02,485 Yeah. Both. Yes. Right, right. 607 00:31:02,485 --> 00:31:06,114 And so it helps so much to understand what's happening. 608 00:31:07,282 --> 00:31:08,783 Okay. This is my trauma. 609 00:31:08,783 --> 00:31:09,909 I'm being triggered. 610 00:31:09,909 --> 00:31:13,830 This is a trigger that that, this is one of my triggers. 611 00:31:15,081 --> 00:31:17,250 We talk about fight flight, freeze. 612 00:31:17,250 --> 00:31:20,920 And fight mode. Flight mode, freeze mode. 613 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:24,048 You know, it's helpful to identify that when it happens. 614 00:31:24,048 --> 00:31:26,092 Oh, I'm in freeze mode right now. 615 00:31:26,092 --> 00:31:27,343 I feel myself shutting down. 616 00:31:27,343 --> 00:31:29,053 This is what's happening to me. 617 00:31:29,053 --> 00:31:31,180 Instead of it just being this thing that's going on. 618 00:31:31,180 --> 00:31:33,933 And I don't know what it is, and I don't have a name for it. 619 00:31:33,933 --> 00:31:36,895 So those things can be helpful as well. 620 00:31:38,062 --> 00:31:38,771 That's a start. 621 00:31:38,771 --> 00:31:42,775 Obviously, there's a lot more to say about the healing process. 622 00:31:43,526 --> 00:31:47,447 Yeah, Yeah I I feel like that's a, a good piece 623 00:31:47,447 --> 00:31:50,408 to make sure we leave people with, you know, here are some 624 00:31:50,867 --> 00:31:53,620 you've laid out at least a couple things, you know, some some next steps 625 00:31:53,620 --> 00:31:56,623 or some things for people to try. 626 00:31:57,081 --> 00:32:01,544 Well, Michael, I really appreciate you taking the time to share with us today. 627 00:32:01,544 --> 00:32:07,634 This is yeah, this is a difficult topic, and I really hope from this conversation, 628 00:32:07,842 --> 00:32:10,887 people listening to this, have more awareness, for one thing. 629 00:32:10,887 --> 00:32:12,305 And also, 630 00:32:12,305 --> 00:32:16,935 you know, start thinking through, okay, how can how can I be, more gracious, 631 00:32:16,935 --> 00:32:21,981 more caring, loving towards those people who have went through something like this? 632 00:32:21,981 --> 00:32:24,400 Or if someone who has went through that. 633 00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:26,819 You know, hopefully this has encouraged them as well. 634 00:32:26,819 --> 00:32:28,404 And and so forth. 635 00:32:28,404 --> 00:32:31,074 So yeah, thank you for coming on and sharing today. 636 00:32:31,074 --> 00:32:31,741 Absolutely. 637 00:32:33,409 --> 00:32:36,537 Thanks for listening to this episode with my Michael Hochstetler. 638 00:32:36,621 --> 00:32:38,456 If you found this interesting, you should consider 639 00:32:38,456 --> 00:32:41,834 checking out our other channel, which is a course taught by Frank 640 00:32:41,834 --> 00:32:45,630 Reed about wholehearted living, serving others, and experiencing healing. 641 00:32:45,838 --> 00:32:49,008 You can find links for that course in the description down below. 642 00:32:49,384 --> 00:32:52,303 Thanks again for listening and we'll see you in the next episode.