Speaker: 00:00:00

One of the things I think is so important

is it really is okay

00:00:04,004 --> 00:00:08,133

to just be

whatever your role is, to just be that.

00:00:08,133 --> 00:00:11,136

And so if you're a friend of someone

who has a trauma history,

00:00:11,761 --> 00:00:14,222

you don't have to be their counselor.

00:00:14,222 --> 00:00:15,890

You don't have to be their pastor.

00:00:15,890 --> 00:00:18,101

You don't have to be their life coach.

00:00:18,101 --> 00:00:19,978

It's okay to just be their friend.

00:00:25,942 --> 00:00:26,484

This is great.

00:00:26,484 --> 00:00:29,487

I'm really glad you could make this work,

Michael.

00:00:29,779 --> 00:00:31,906

I I'm really glad it's been a minute.

00:00:31,906 --> 00:00:34,659

So, we interviewed you.

00:00:34,659 --> 00:00:35,785

Wow.

00:00:35,785 --> 00:00:39,289

It's been probably four years

five years ago, at least.

00:00:39,622 --> 00:00:40,790

I think it was during the height of Covid

or something.

00:00:40,790 --> 00:00:43,543

Oh, my. Okay,

so which was, quite the time.

00:00:43,543 --> 00:00:44,544

Yeah.

00:00:44,544 --> 00:00:48,173

So, Michael, you work as a counselor,

and you do,

00:00:48,465 --> 00:00:53,386

some teaching and things on a variety

of topics, but one specifically,

00:00:54,012 --> 00:00:57,891

I want to dive in today,

and this is, you know, a more heavy and,

00:00:58,308 --> 00:00:59,476

maybe not the typical thing

00:00:59,476 --> 00:01:03,480

we cover on this podcast,

but that is the topic of trauma.

00:01:04,105 --> 00:01:07,942

And, to be honest,

I don't know much about it.

00:01:07,942 --> 00:01:13,239

I you know, you hear things,

you bump into some things,

00:01:13,239 --> 00:01:17,786

and I think it's pretty easy to build

in, in the mind of, like, I kind of think

00:01:17,786 --> 00:01:22,832

it's like this, and I'm, I'm guessing that

I probably don't have that quite right.

00:01:22,832 --> 00:01:26,336

So I'd love to hear from you

00:01:26,836 --> 00:01:30,882

on just some basics and what we can learn

and how that applies

00:01:30,882 --> 00:01:33,760

to us, to the audience,

anybody who listens to this.

00:01:35,345 --> 00:01:38,181

So I guess just to start it off,

let's let's start with the basics.

00:01:38,181 --> 00:01:41,184

And what is trauma?

00:01:41,476 --> 00:01:43,186

there's a lot of ways

you can define trauma.

00:01:43,186 --> 00:01:46,272

I think about emotional wounding.

00:01:46,481 --> 00:01:50,485

So if you think about the difference

between pain and wounding.

00:01:50,485 --> 00:01:55,031

So in terms of the physical body

we experience pain all the time.

00:01:55,031 --> 00:01:58,034

That isn't necessarily wounding a wound

00:01:58,368 --> 00:02:01,496

not only hurts

but is a lasting source of hurt

00:02:01,830 --> 00:02:05,250

that limits our ability to function

in some way.

00:02:05,250 --> 00:02:07,168

So I have a laceration on my arm.

00:02:07,168 --> 00:02:09,337

It's harder to use my arm.

00:02:09,337 --> 00:02:12,340

It limits what I can do with it,

and it continues to hurt.

00:02:12,382 --> 00:02:14,384

So in some ways, trauma is that way.

00:02:14,384 --> 00:02:16,136

It's not simply pain

00:02:16,136 --> 00:02:19,973

that a person has experienced,

but it's an ongoing source of pain.

00:02:21,141 --> 00:02:22,559

So overwhelming.

00:02:22,559 --> 00:02:24,519

Distressing.

00:02:24,519 --> 00:02:27,480

It's in some cases, terrifying events

that occur to people.

00:02:28,106 --> 00:02:31,109

They continue to be a source

of wounding, ongoing.

00:02:31,985 --> 00:02:35,613

And is that one of the challenges

when it comes to things like trauma.

00:02:35,613 --> 00:02:38,241

Is someone looking on from the outside.

00:02:38,241 --> 00:02:40,952

Oh well that happened to you

like a long time ago.

00:02:40,952 --> 00:02:42,704

Why is this still, an issue.

00:02:42,704 --> 00:02:44,706

Yes, yes, very much so.

00:02:44,706 --> 00:02:46,916

Or the individual themselves?

00:02:46,916 --> 00:02:49,711

Yeah, I hear that

a lot from people that I work with.

00:02:49,711 --> 00:02:51,421

Why am I still struggling with this?

00:02:51,421 --> 00:02:53,131

Why does it still affect me?

00:02:53,131 --> 00:02:57,051

Yeah, I'm not really not sure

where the idea of a timetable

00:02:57,051 --> 00:03:00,138

comes from,

but for some reason we have this idea

00:03:00,930 --> 00:03:03,183

that you should be over it

00:03:03,183 --> 00:03:05,685

by a certain point.

00:03:05,685 --> 00:03:07,228

But it's not that way.

00:03:07,228 --> 00:03:11,107

And trauma can last for a lifetime,

potentially, if there isn't healing

00:03:12,775 --> 00:03:15,028

I guess the

00:03:15,028 --> 00:03:19,490

the part about this

is it's pretty easy to make assumptions.

00:03:19,949 --> 00:03:23,494

And again for something like trauma

00:03:23,494 --> 00:03:26,748

it's not like

oh someone loses their arm in an accident.

00:03:26,789 --> 00:03:30,126

It's very obvious that

hey you know that happened.

00:03:30,460 --> 00:03:32,378

You know they have this limitation.

00:03:32,378 --> 00:03:35,381

They have one arm, with trauma.

00:03:35,590 --> 00:03:37,175

It's not really the case, I guess.

00:03:37,175 --> 00:03:38,885

And again, I'm not.

00:03:38,885 --> 00:03:40,970

This is not my field. I.

00:03:40,970 --> 00:03:42,430

I feel like I have so much to learn here.

00:03:42,430 --> 00:03:44,224

This, I'm sure is quite complicated.

00:03:44,224 --> 00:03:47,227

And, what I hear you saying is

00:03:47,727 --> 00:03:50,688

a person can be traumatized

and we wouldn't necessarily know it,

00:03:50,688 --> 00:03:53,775

or we might not credit

the impact of their trauma

00:03:53,775 --> 00:03:57,070

on them because it's not something visible

like losing an arm.

00:03:57,070 --> 00:03:58,905

Is that kind of what you're saying?

00:03:58,905 --> 00:04:01,366

Because you can look at that and be,

Oh I can, I can easily see that.

00:04:01,366 --> 00:04:03,952

Whereas someone may have went through

something horrible and

00:04:05,036 --> 00:04:05,536

you can't really

00:04:05,536 --> 00:04:08,539

tell from just looking at them

necessarily.

00:04:08,581 --> 00:04:09,916

Yeah. Yeah. That.

00:04:09,916 --> 00:04:12,418

So this is true on on many levels.

00:04:12,418 --> 00:04:15,129

So one way that this is true,

00:04:15,129 --> 00:04:17,924

the impact on a person isn't

always obvious.

00:04:17,924 --> 00:04:20,093

Now, sometimes it is

if a person engages in

00:04:20,093 --> 00:04:23,680

some kind of destructive behavior

that involves other people.

00:04:24,138 --> 00:04:27,100

Obviously,

not all traumatized individuals do that.

00:04:27,475 --> 00:04:30,812

Or if a person's symptoms are visible,

00:04:32,021 --> 00:04:33,147

or obvious to other people.

00:04:33,147 --> 00:04:37,402

But a lot of people experience

their symptoms in private

00:04:38,444 --> 00:04:39,988

or simply inside of themselves.

00:04:39,988 --> 00:04:42,991

So we like to talk about the difference

between acting in

00:04:43,449 --> 00:04:47,161

and acting out,

acting out as in more familiar language.

00:04:47,829 --> 00:04:49,455

You act out the distress.

00:04:49,455 --> 00:04:52,458

It's on the inside, through drinking

00:04:52,458 --> 00:04:56,671

or getting into arguments

or or cutting or whatever it might be.

100

00:04:56,671 --> 00:04:59,465

And again, not all traumatized

people do things like that.

101

00:04:59,465 --> 00:05:03,011

Just but just to to define the terms.

102

00:05:03,970 --> 00:05:07,223

But people also act in, which means

103

00:05:07,765 --> 00:05:10,768

they work out their distress internally.

104

00:05:11,227 --> 00:05:12,770

So that might be through worry

105

00:05:12,770 --> 00:05:16,482

or through negative thoughts

about themselves or maybe poor health.

106

00:05:16,482 --> 00:05:19,152

Maybe the body absorbs the impact of it.

107

00:05:19,152 --> 00:05:22,405

So what I'm saying with

that is a lot of people are traumatized

108

00:05:22,405 --> 00:05:24,615

and you wouldn't know it

just to observe them.

109

00:05:24,615 --> 00:05:26,909

It might just look like a quiet person.

110

00:05:26,909 --> 00:05:29,829

And that's what's so sad, is

111

00:05:29,829 --> 00:05:32,707

these people are really hurting very badly

112

00:05:32,707 --> 00:05:35,710

on the inside, and people don't know it,

113

00:05:36,085 --> 00:05:38,921

and they're not necessarily

going to talk about it.

114

00:05:38,921 --> 00:05:41,924

That is so hard to talk about.

115

00:05:43,009 --> 00:05:44,844

And that

116

00:05:44,844 --> 00:05:48,598

transitions a little bit

into another question I had too.

117

00:05:49,682 --> 00:05:51,768

It seems like

118

00:05:51,768 --> 00:05:54,771

there's often a stigma

around the topic of trauma,

119

00:05:55,146 --> 00:05:58,858

which feels like we just kind of reinforce

some of the things you were just saying.

120

00:05:58,858 --> 00:05:59,359

Right.

121

00:05:59,359 --> 00:06:03,029

It's easy to just,

oh, we'll just ignore that or we’ll sweep

122

00:06:03,029 --> 00:06:06,032

that under the rug or, so forth.

123

00:06:06,783 --> 00:06:08,076

Why is that?

124

00:06:08,076 --> 00:06:11,913

And then how can we find some healthier

responses to these things?

125

00:06:12,997 --> 00:06:14,332

Yeah that's a really good question.

126

00:06:14,332 --> 00:06:17,335

So in the context of our Anabaptist

127

00:06:18,044 --> 00:06:21,381

communities that might be a good thing

for me to mention.

128

00:06:21,381 --> 00:06:24,467

By the way, in passing,

those are mostly the people I work with

129

00:06:24,509 --> 00:06:28,971

is people from fairly conservative

Anabaptist communities.

130

00:06:28,971 --> 00:06:31,974

So that's my context here for this issue.

131

00:06:32,975 --> 00:06:35,019

So we tend to be,

132

00:06:35,019 --> 00:06:38,022

in many ways, a very stoic people.

133

00:06:38,898 --> 00:06:42,026

We often have a horror of self-pity,

134

00:06:43,736 --> 00:06:47,865

of blame shifting and victimization,

which goodness knows.

135

00:06:47,865 --> 00:06:49,951

There's plenty of that

to go around in this world.

136

00:06:49,951 --> 00:06:52,954

And and it's certainly

a good thing to stay away from.

137

00:06:53,663 --> 00:06:57,625

But many of our people

tend to be very sensitive to those things.

138

00:06:58,334 --> 00:07:00,336

So I've heard it over and over

and over from clients.

139

00:07:00,336 --> 00:07:02,004

I don't want to be that person.

140

00:07:02,004 --> 00:07:05,007

It's hard to engage the counseling process

in some ways

141

00:07:05,007 --> 00:07:06,717

because it means talking about your pain.

142

00:07:06,717 --> 00:07:07,969

It means receiving empathy.

143

00:07:07,969 --> 00:07:10,012

It means telling your story.

144

00:07:10,012 --> 00:07:11,848

But many people are very hesitant

145

00:07:12,932 --> 00:07:14,725

to talk about their pain.

146

00:07:14,725 --> 00:07:16,561

It's one thing

if it's somebody else's pain.

147

00:07:16,561 --> 00:07:18,688

But if I talk about my pain,

148

00:07:18,688 --> 00:07:21,399

that means I'm making a big deal about me

and about my suffering.

149

00:07:21,399 --> 00:07:22,567

I think there's just something

150

00:07:22,567 --> 00:07:26,779

really deep in our culture

that we are very reluctant

151

00:07:28,072 --> 00:07:30,324

to express ourselves too much.

152

00:07:30,324 --> 00:07:32,869

And maybe that's

too much of a generalization,

153

00:07:32,869 --> 00:07:35,872

but I think that

there are things in our culture

154

00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:39,834

that make it difficult

for us to credit suffering too much

155

00:07:40,668 --> 00:07:42,920

when it's our own suffering,

but maybe even

156

00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:45,923

when it's other people's suffering.

157

00:07:46,007 --> 00:07:50,678

So there are some unique challenges

that I think we have with our subculture.

158

00:07:50,887 --> 00:07:54,348

Just around struggle in general,

159

00:07:54,515 --> 00:07:57,518

suffering in general.

160

00:07:58,102 --> 00:08:01,063

Emotional struggle, mental suffering.

161

00:08:01,647 --> 00:08:04,317

Sometimes we view it as weakness.

162

00:08:04,317 --> 00:08:08,613

That's a construction that people often

put on their pain or their trauma.

163

00:08:08,654 --> 00:08:12,950

So again, the issue of how long it takes

to get over it if if it takes me,

164

00:08:13,159 --> 00:08:18,080

if 20 years later, I'm still impacted

by, let's say, sexual abuse

165

00:08:18,831 --> 00:08:21,751

or that means that I'm weak, for example.

166

00:08:22,793 --> 00:08:23,878

So I think we really ought

167

00:08:23,878 --> 00:08:27,590

to be reflective

about our beliefs about suffering,

168

00:08:27,590 --> 00:08:31,469

our beliefs about struggle,

our beliefs about emotions.

169

00:08:32,512 --> 00:08:35,097

Yeah.

170

00:08:35,097 --> 00:08:38,059

I think one of the things that

171

00:08:38,476 --> 00:08:41,187

bothers me a bit is people

172

00:08:41,187 --> 00:08:44,398

that may have went through

some of these experiences.

173

00:08:44,607 --> 00:08:47,109

There's that tape running in the head of

174

00:08:47,109 --> 00:08:50,112

oh it's, it's

this shouldn't be a big deal.

175

00:08:50,112 --> 00:08:51,864

I should get over this. It's

no big, you know.

176

00:08:51,864 --> 00:08:57,036

And so then maybe they're less likely to,

get help or something.

177

00:08:57,245 --> 00:09:00,456

Again, I'm speaking generalizations

because I don't have the experience here.

178

00:09:00,915 --> 00:09:01,749

And maybe this.

179

00:09:01,749 --> 00:09:03,960

I guess I should say

this more like a question.

180

00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:08,839

But then maybe they have tried to reach

out, you know, and they get shut down.

181

00:09:08,839 --> 00:09:11,050

Or again, back to that stigma thing.

182

00:09:11,050 --> 00:09:12,718

It was like,

come on, that happened to you,

183

00:09:12,718 --> 00:09:14,178

you know, like eight years ago

or whatever.

184

00:09:14,178 --> 00:09:16,222

And like, you know,

you should be past that by now.

185

00:09:16,222 --> 00:09:16,389

Yeah.

186

00:09:16,389 --> 00:09:21,227

I've heard comments like that made,

you know, multiple times towards

187

00:09:21,227 --> 00:09:24,272

someone who maybe went through something

that was difficult and they're like, what?

188

00:09:24,272 --> 00:09:26,857

What? That was like years ago.

What's what's the big deal, you know?

189

00:09:26,857 --> 00:09:30,152

And it's again,

coming back to that stigma.

190

00:09:30,528 --> 00:09:33,364

I'm not really sure if that's even

really a question or an observation.

191

00:09:33,364 --> 00:09:36,284

I'd be curious how you would,

you know, if you have a response to that?

192

00:09:36,284 --> 00:09:36,492

Yeah.

193

00:09:36,492 --> 00:09:39,495

I mean, we certainly hear lots of stories

like that.

194

00:09:39,537 --> 00:09:40,997

Here's a common response.

195

00:09:40,997 --> 00:09:44,375

And I think it comes from a good place,

a very well-intentioned place.

196

00:09:44,375 --> 00:09:47,378

But many times we try to be encouraging

197

00:09:47,628 --> 00:09:50,047

by pointing out the positive.

198

00:09:51,048 --> 00:09:55,553

You know, this comes

up in the context of loss, for example.

199

00:09:55,553 --> 00:09:58,556

Well,

you still have three other children or

200

00:09:58,764 --> 00:10:01,267

or she's in heaven or whatever.

201

00:10:01,267 --> 00:10:05,771

And man, I mean, God bless people

for trying to be encouraging, right?

202

00:10:05,771 --> 00:10:08,065

I mean, you can you can really

203

00:10:08,065 --> 00:10:11,027

I think we need to credit people's

heart and people's intentions.

204

00:10:11,027 --> 00:10:14,864

But many times

our attempts to be encouraging or positive

205

00:10:15,281 --> 00:10:19,201

just have the impact of

of invalidating people's feelings.

206

00:10:19,744 --> 00:10:22,622

One of the things I just think

is so helpful

207

00:10:22,622 --> 00:10:26,334

to appreciate

is that yes, people need to be encouraged.

208

00:10:27,126 --> 00:10:29,545

They need to be lifted up,

209

00:10:29,545 --> 00:10:31,589

but they also need to be validated.

210

00:10:31,589 --> 00:10:35,301

And many times

people find it much easier to feel better

211

00:10:35,301 --> 00:10:39,263

and have a positive outlook on life

when they're distressed.

212

00:10:39,263 --> 00:10:40,806

Feelings have been validated.

213

00:10:41,766 --> 00:10:44,602

When somebody says

I get it I get what you're going through.

214

00:10:44,602 --> 00:10:47,605

Now I know you can go too far with that.

215

00:10:47,730 --> 00:10:50,733

I mean we in the counseling world

try not to just

216

00:10:50,733 --> 00:10:54,695

wallow in negativity and you know,

217

00:10:55,988 --> 00:10:58,741

but I think so many people

218

00:10:58,741 --> 00:11:02,953

who are trying to help other,

you know, friends or family or whoever,

219

00:11:04,372 --> 00:11:07,375

their attempts to be encouraging

220

00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:10,711

end up being unintentionally invalidating.

221

00:11:10,711 --> 00:11:12,421

And, you know, that's not what.

222

00:11:12,421 --> 00:11:16,217

That's not what any of us need, whether

we're at a trauma history or otherwise.

223

00:11:17,551 --> 00:11:21,263

So back to okay.

224

00:11:21,263 --> 00:11:24,266

So we have stigmas right

that surround this.

225

00:11:24,517 --> 00:11:28,062

And then what are maybe

some healthier ways we could respond.

226

00:11:28,354 --> 00:11:32,149

I'm going to use a Just a minor example.

227

00:11:32,149 --> 00:11:34,151

And I'm curious

to hear what you think of this.

228

00:11:34,151 --> 00:11:38,239

I had interaction with, someone who had

went through some very difficult things,

229

00:11:38,656 --> 00:11:39,573

on the mission

230

00:11:39,573 --> 00:11:43,494

field and had come back and didn't

really know what to do with that.

231

00:11:43,494 --> 00:11:44,912

And, yeah, just it was a challenge.

232

00:11:44,912 --> 00:11:46,497

And it had been years before.

233

00:11:46,497 --> 00:11:50,209

And then that person started working

with a totally separate group of people

234

00:11:50,918 --> 00:11:54,088

that had also done some mission work

that was very similar

235

00:11:54,088 --> 00:11:55,798

and went through a very similar thing.

236

00:11:55,798 --> 00:11:59,343

And that was a very healing process

for that person.

237

00:11:59,343 --> 00:12:02,054

And it wasn't

it wasn't like a structured thing.

238

00:12:02,054 --> 00:12:02,763

It wasn't like, oh,

239

00:12:02,763 --> 00:12:05,141

this is our project person

that we're going to all help, you know.

240

00:12:05,141 --> 00:12:07,560

It wasn't that at all,

but it was really neat, actually.

241

00:12:07,560 --> 00:12:10,646

See that person to kind of kind of open up

and start blossoming again.

242

00:12:10,980 --> 00:12:13,774

Is there a power in that?

243

00:12:13,774 --> 00:12:14,108

Yeah.

244

00:12:14,108 --> 00:12:16,402

Like, these were these weren't even people

that really knew each other

245

00:12:16,402 --> 00:12:19,405

that deeply is just through osmosis,

I guess.

246

00:12:19,488 --> 00:12:19,989

Be curious.

247

00:12:19,989 --> 00:12:22,742

Yeah, some feedback on that.

248

00:12:22,742 --> 00:12:25,077

Like, I'm just kind of looking for

what are some healthy ways

249

00:12:25,077 --> 00:12:27,496

that we can engage with people

that that have this.

250

00:12:27,496 --> 00:12:29,582

I love it. I love that story.

251

00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:33,335

And I'm just thinking

if somebody had come along and said,

252

00:12:33,335 --> 00:12:37,590

oh, you had traumatizing experiences

on the mission field, let's fix you.

253

00:12:37,673 --> 00:12:39,800

Let's tell you what you need to do here.

254

00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:42,803

And probably it would have been

a very different experience.

255

00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:44,638

Yeah.

256

00:12:44,638 --> 00:12:47,641

Obviously there's a place

for being intentional of course, but

257

00:12:47,975 --> 00:12:52,938

one of the things I hear that stories

the power of shared experience, the power

258

00:12:52,938 --> 00:12:57,443

of relating to other people who have had

similar experiences or similar stories,

259

00:12:57,443 --> 00:13:03,073

and that is so helpful for trauma,

for addiction, for mental health.

260

00:13:03,783 --> 00:13:06,786

Is it it's kind of this.

261

00:13:07,953 --> 00:13:10,414

It can help that person feel.

262

00:13:10,414 --> 00:13:13,501

I, I'm not the only person in

the whole world that's had this, you know.

263

00:13:13,542 --> 00:13:16,587

Because I think that's the one thing.

264

00:13:16,879 --> 00:13:18,130

Like, yeah.

265

00:13:18,130 --> 00:13:21,258

No, you're not the only person

in the world that's had that experience.

266

00:13:21,425 --> 00:13:23,302

I mean, you know.

267

00:13:23,302 --> 00:13:26,972

And that was definitely the sense

I got from this person.

268

00:13:26,972 --> 00:13:28,432

And to watch that process.

269

00:13:28,432 --> 00:13:30,810

And they were like,

oh, wow, I'm not the only one

270

00:13:30,810 --> 00:13:34,063

who went through this and really struggled

in this way or whatever.

271

00:13:34,271 --> 00:13:37,358

And it's one thing to just know that

I mean most of us

272

00:13:38,025 --> 00:13:40,444

oh I think this is generally to

273

00:13:40,444 --> 00:13:43,906

we know notionally

all of these different things.

274

00:13:43,906 --> 00:13:46,367

At least a lot of them,

a lot of the most life giving things.

275

00:13:46,367 --> 00:13:46,992

We know them.

276

00:13:46,992 --> 00:13:49,995

But to have the experience of relating

to someone

277

00:13:50,079 --> 00:13:52,373

who has been through the same thing

or hearing their story

278

00:13:52,373 --> 00:13:57,253

and actually have a group around you

in real life that you can interact with,

279

00:13:57,545 --> 00:14:01,757

right, versus knowing that those people

are out there in some kind of sense.

280

00:14:01,799 --> 00:14:04,718

I mean,

maybe they're there somewhere. Yeah.

281

00:14:04,718 --> 00:14:06,011

Is this something that

282

00:14:07,596 --> 00:14:10,349

when we're looking at

283

00:14:10,349 --> 00:14:13,352

going through

something that say was traumatic,

284

00:14:13,602 --> 00:14:16,689

the healing process is

285

00:14:17,940 --> 00:14:20,818

not necessarily in isolation like that?

286

00:14:20,818 --> 00:14:24,405

You we keep coming back

to other people in the process.

287

00:14:24,947 --> 00:14:27,783

Being part of, of,

288

00:14:27,783 --> 00:14:31,829

a more healthy response versus

some of the stigmas where it is.

289

00:14:31,829 --> 00:14:34,832

I guess what I'm trying to say is,

I'm sure there's listeners

290

00:14:34,832 --> 00:14:35,958

hearing this saying,

291

00:14:35,958 --> 00:14:37,960

oh, yeah,

I like I know someone who went through

292

00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:39,879

that, that,

that was a really that was really tough.

293

00:14:39,879 --> 00:14:42,965

And I think they're struggling and they're

thinking, well, what can I do to help?

294

00:14:43,465 --> 00:14:46,468

It seems like we keep coming around to

295

00:14:47,011 --> 00:14:50,306

other people

being involved in some way or another.

296

00:14:50,347 --> 00:14:54,894

What are what are ways that people

listening to this like, hey, I could

297

00:14:55,144 --> 00:14:58,522

I could be of help or I don't even know

how to frame that because

298

00:14:59,648 --> 00:15:01,191

each situation is different, Yeah.

299

00:15:01,191 --> 00:15:04,194

Yeah, that's that's that's true.

300

00:15:04,820 --> 00:15:09,408

So knowing your role and staying

in your lane, I think is pretty important.

301

00:15:09,450 --> 00:15:11,994

So it makes so much difference.

Are you a pastor?

302

00:15:11,994 --> 00:15:15,998

Is it a close family member

or is it, is it,

303

00:15:15,998 --> 00:15:19,335

a next door neighbor

or are you a mentor to this person?

304

00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:23,881

One of the things I think is so important

is it really is okay

305

00:15:23,923 --> 00:15:28,052

to just be

whatever your role is, to just be that.

306

00:15:28,052 --> 00:15:31,055

And so if you're a friend of someone

who has a trauma history,

307

00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:34,141

you don't have to be their counselor.

308

00:15:34,141 --> 00:15:35,809

You don't have to be their pastor.

309

00:15:35,809 --> 00:15:38,020

You don't have to be their life coach.

310

00:15:38,020 --> 00:15:39,980

It's okay to just be their friend.

311

00:15:39,980 --> 00:15:42,274

Even if they continue struggling, right?

312

00:15:42,274 --> 00:15:44,109

I think it could be easy to feel like

313

00:15:45,194 --> 00:15:46,320

me being a friend of

314

00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:49,782

this person, supporting this person,

being available for them.

315

00:15:50,491 --> 00:15:54,119

What good is this

if they're not getting better?

316

00:15:55,204 --> 00:15:57,581

And so I need to do more

and get more involved.

317

00:15:57,581 --> 00:16:03,796

One of the things I think we see a lot

from a counseling perspective is loved

318

00:16:03,796 --> 00:16:09,093

ones or mentors who become overinvolved

in unhealthy ways. Now.

319

00:16:09,927 --> 00:16:13,305

I hesitate to make too much of that

because we want people

320

00:16:13,305 --> 00:16:15,432

to be more involved.

We want more community.

321

00:16:15,432 --> 00:16:19,728

We want more help and support

for for any number of struggles.

322

00:16:20,854 --> 00:16:25,985

But the wrong kind of involvement

often is counterproductive.

323

00:16:26,068 --> 00:16:30,781

And I think what happens is

when a friend stops being a friend

324

00:16:31,490 --> 00:16:34,118

because they're anxious

about the suffering

325

00:16:34,118 --> 00:16:37,121

and they want to fix it.

326

00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:39,331

It's okay to just be a friend.

327

00:16:39,331 --> 00:16:44,253

It's okay to just be supportive and

point them to other additional resources.

328

00:16:44,253 --> 00:16:45,879

You know, stay in your lane.

329

00:16:47,798 --> 00:16:49,967

That partially answers your question.

330

00:16:49,967 --> 00:16:53,303

That's I think that

yeah that's really good though.

331

00:16:54,013 --> 00:16:57,016

And also I'm getting a sense

332

00:16:57,307 --> 00:16:59,351

from you

that you wouldn't want to treat this as.

333

00:16:59,351 --> 00:17:02,104

Okay. This is,

this is the project person I'm working on.

334

00:17:02,104 --> 00:17:05,024

You know I'm trying to fix this or.

335

00:17:05,024 --> 00:17:05,983

Yeah, whatever.

336

00:17:05,983 --> 00:17:07,901

it's hard to.

337

00:17:07,901 --> 00:17:10,320

It's hard to.

338

00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:12,448

Man. I want to choose my words carefully.

339

00:17:12,448 --> 00:17:15,451

It's hard to tolerate

340

00:17:16,326 --> 00:17:17,870

another person's suffering.

341

00:17:17,870 --> 00:17:21,206

When I say tolerate, I don't mean

to be indifferent to, obviously,

342

00:17:22,041 --> 00:17:25,210

but there is a sense

in which we really have to come to terms

343

00:17:25,210 --> 00:17:29,131

with the ongoing

suffering of people in our lives.

344

00:17:30,257 --> 00:17:32,926

I have to be okay with the fact

345

00:17:32,926 --> 00:17:37,097

that this isn't going away right away,

and that's hard.

346

00:17:37,097 --> 00:17:38,348

And that's where compassion is.

347

00:17:38,348 --> 00:17:42,102

I mean, the literal meaning of compassion

is to suffer with to share the suffering.

348

00:17:42,269 --> 00:17:45,731

And many times what we want to do

is get rid of the suffering.

349

00:17:45,731 --> 00:17:49,568

And again that comes from a good place,

that comes from, from mercy,

350

00:17:49,568 --> 00:17:52,571

that comes from our desire for their good.

351

00:17:52,654 --> 00:17:56,950

But if I can't tolerate

what you're going through,

352

00:17:57,993 --> 00:18:00,704

unintentionally, that ends up again

invalidating

353

00:18:00,704 --> 00:18:03,499

the other person's experience.

And it's so much harder to be with them.

354

00:18:03,499 --> 00:18:07,461

You can't be with a person

and be connected to a person.

355

00:18:07,461 --> 00:18:12,049

And if you can't tolerate

their experience, does that make sense?

356

00:18:12,341 --> 00:18:13,175

It does.

357

00:18:13,175 --> 00:18:14,301

Yeah it does.

358

00:18:14,301 --> 00:18:18,347

And I feel like there's a

there's that's an important piece

359

00:18:18,347 --> 00:18:21,308

because it's easy

to want to go down the street of.

360

00:18:21,308 --> 00:18:23,352

Well okay well here's the checklist.

361

00:18:23,352 --> 00:18:24,186

You know and okay

362

00:18:24,186 --> 00:18:28,398

once we check these boxes boom we’re fixed

and humans just aren't really that way.

363

00:18:28,482 --> 00:18:29,858

Exactly.

364

00:18:29,858 --> 00:18:30,567

Yeah. Yeah.

365

00:18:30,567 --> 00:18:32,528

Like, that's just

366

00:18:32,528 --> 00:18:34,404

it's,

367

00:18:34,404 --> 00:18:37,199

There's a, there's a real sense

in which trauma is relational.

368

00:18:37,199 --> 00:18:43,956

So it relational in this sense

there's a difference

369

00:18:43,956 --> 00:18:49,378

between experiencing emotional pain

when you're connected to someone

370

00:18:50,129 --> 00:18:54,299

in the experience and experiencing

emotional pain when you're alone.

371

00:18:55,259 --> 00:18:57,928

And many, many,

many people have been traumatized.

372

00:19:00,139 --> 00:19:00,806

A root

373

00:19:00,806 --> 00:19:04,643

issue I'm not going to say the root issue,

but a root issue is that their traumatic

374

00:19:04,643 --> 00:19:08,397

experiences happened when they were alone

or when they were not connected.

375

00:19:08,397 --> 00:19:11,108

Or maybe there was someone

physically present

376

00:19:11,108 --> 00:19:14,278

who was treating them aggressively,

but they weren't connected.

377

00:19:14,903 --> 00:19:17,531

And that lack of connection,

that being in pain

378

00:19:17,531 --> 00:19:20,534

and being alone in the experience,

379

00:19:20,784 --> 00:19:24,580

in many ways, that is the trauma,

in many ways that defines the trauma.

380

00:19:24,955 --> 00:19:28,250

And so the healing that can come

from being with a person

381

00:19:28,792 --> 00:19:31,295

in their suffering,

382

00:19:31,295 --> 00:19:33,922

not trying to fix it,

383

00:19:33,922 --> 00:19:35,674

not trying to be the answer person.

384

00:19:35,674 --> 00:19:38,677

In many ways, that is the healing.

385

00:19:39,344 --> 00:19:40,846

That's powerful that

386

00:19:40,846 --> 00:19:43,849

that concept of with like with someone.

387

00:19:43,891 --> 00:19:46,852

I think when,

when we had had a call before

388

00:19:46,852 --> 00:19:49,479

before this when we were kind

of talking through like hey yeah.

389

00:19:49,479 --> 00:19:51,648

What do we want to do

to get on the podcast?

390

00:19:51,648 --> 00:19:54,776

You had mentioned something like this,

and I feel like that's pretty relevant.

391

00:19:55,402 --> 00:19:58,947

Well, you used the word withness,

Was that it withness and you.

392

00:19:58,947 --> 00:20:03,744

You'd said something like,

sitting with people through through this

393

00:20:03,744 --> 00:20:06,747

or like being there

with this sense of with people,

394

00:20:07,164 --> 00:20:10,250

which is very different than saying, oh,

this is a project and here's a checklist.

395

00:20:10,250 --> 00:20:13,795

And we're going to fix it, you know,

with one, two and three, things.

396

00:20:14,171 --> 00:20:16,548

There's something beautiful about that.

397

00:20:16,548 --> 00:20:17,174

You know.

398

00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:19,760

And there's

399

00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:24,139

this one that's a theme throughout

scripture to, Emmanuel, God with us.

400

00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:27,726

You know, in tabernacle,

God tenting with us

401

00:20:27,726 --> 00:20:31,230

or dwelling down with us, etc., etc..

402

00:20:31,230 --> 00:20:33,732

You can trace this

all through Scripture. Yeah.

403

00:20:33,732 --> 00:20:36,193

And then that's how the book of

404

00:20:36,193 --> 00:20:38,654

revelation

and the whole Bible really ends with

405

00:20:38,654 --> 00:20:41,657

God coming down to be with his people.

406

00:20:41,907 --> 00:20:45,702

That concept of with

is just really powerful and potent.

407

00:20:46,370 --> 00:20:49,623

and knowing and experiencing

God is with us in our pain

408

00:20:49,623 --> 00:20:52,626

or even in memories of our pain.

409

00:20:53,126 --> 00:20:56,380

Now I do want to just quickly

say there is certainly a place for tools.

410

00:20:56,380 --> 00:20:58,799

There's certainly a place

for the practical and the nitty gritty.

411

00:20:58,799 --> 00:21:02,219

Everything here is not just relational.

412

00:21:03,053 --> 00:21:05,514

For sure.

There's a whole other side to it.

413

00:21:05,514 --> 00:21:07,349

But Yeah. And I think that's

414

00:21:08,392 --> 00:21:10,227

definitely the disclaimer to give to

I mean

415

00:21:10,227 --> 00:21:12,020

we are talking in pretty general terms.

416

00:21:12,020 --> 00:21:13,313

Every situation is different.

417

00:21:13,313 --> 00:21:17,567

Trauma is a very multifaceted

very complex

418

00:21:17,567 --> 00:21:20,862

subject fraught with disclaimers

or the need for disclaimers.

419

00:21:21,863 --> 00:21:24,866

But with with what we were just saying.

420

00:21:25,409 --> 00:21:28,537

Feels like it, transitions nicely

for for another question to have for you.

421

00:21:29,079 --> 00:21:31,832

So how can we be gracious and caring

422

00:21:31,832 --> 00:21:34,835

for those that are suffering trauma?

423

00:21:35,419 --> 00:21:38,130

So I think doing our own work

424

00:21:38,130 --> 00:21:41,133

is helpful, for one thing.

425

00:21:41,466 --> 00:21:44,886

So not everyone has experienced

trauma per se, unless you define it

426

00:21:44,886 --> 00:21:46,430

in the broadest sense.

427

00:21:46,430 --> 00:21:48,724

But we've all suffered in some way.

428

00:21:48,724 --> 00:21:53,437

We've all struggled in some way, and

I think the people who do the best work,

429

00:21:53,437 --> 00:21:57,357

the people that are best friends,

the best mentors to the traumatized,

430

00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:00,986

have a sense of their own pain,

431

00:22:00,986 --> 00:22:04,823

their own struggle in life,

and have received

432

00:22:04,948 --> 00:22:09,244

compassion from others and, from the Lord

know how to bring it to the Lord.

433

00:22:09,244 --> 00:22:12,414

Know how to identify and work

through their own feelings.

434

00:22:12,456 --> 00:22:13,832

I think that really helps.

435

00:22:13,832 --> 00:22:18,337

I think that's really good stewardship

of of our own souls

436

00:22:18,337 --> 00:22:21,340

and gives us more to offer other people.

437

00:22:22,758 --> 00:22:25,594

I think curiosity is so important.

438

00:22:25,594 --> 00:22:27,721

So it's so easy to come in with theories

439

00:22:27,721 --> 00:22:31,767

and with agendas,

and you need this or you need that.

440

00:22:31,767 --> 00:22:33,810

And I think we just need to be curious.

441

00:22:33,810 --> 00:22:36,438

I think we need to ask people,

what do you need?

442

00:22:36,438 --> 00:22:37,814

What are you struggling with?

443

00:22:37,814 --> 00:22:40,817

What would be helpful for you?

444

00:22:41,526 --> 00:22:42,569

What is your story?

445

00:22:42,569 --> 00:22:45,489

Now again, it depends on your lane, right?

446

00:22:45,489 --> 00:22:46,865

Because there are some people that,

447

00:22:48,700 --> 00:22:52,120

you know, depending on your role, maybe

they shouldn't be telling you their story.

448

00:22:52,120 --> 00:22:54,915

That's for them to decide

who they tell their story to.

449

00:22:54,915 --> 00:22:56,375

That's it's deeply personal.

450

00:22:56,375 --> 00:22:59,961

But but depending on your role,

you know, asking questions.

451

00:23:00,629 --> 00:23:02,506

Being curious.

452

00:23:02,506 --> 00:23:06,176

I think hearing the stories

of the traumatized is so helpful.

453

00:23:06,218 --> 00:23:11,348

I think that helps us

get at a visceral level

454

00:23:11,973 --> 00:23:15,894

how much people have suffered

and what people go through

455

00:23:17,354 --> 00:23:20,357

and and just being educated on the issue.

456

00:23:21,024 --> 00:23:23,652

So as we look at this whole package,

I guess you could say

457

00:23:23,652 --> 00:23:27,739

or this topic, we've explored

different avenues and things.

458

00:23:27,739 --> 00:23:33,745

Let's, let's bring it down to something

really practical to round it out

459

00:23:33,745 --> 00:23:36,873

and end this episode with, again,

for those that are listening to this

460

00:23:37,916 --> 00:23:39,501

real practical, what are lists,

461

00:23:39,501 --> 00:23:42,462

something that the listeners

can do right now to help?

462

00:23:42,587 --> 00:23:44,923

Is there places

they should go to learn more?

463

00:23:44,923 --> 00:23:49,302

Is there, you know, simple things,

even first steps that they can take,

464

00:23:49,761 --> 00:23:54,975

to start being part of that or to,

to start helping those around them

465

00:23:54,975 --> 00:23:57,978

that that may have suffered

a traumatic experience.

466

00:23:58,895 --> 00:24:02,023

So you're talking

this is from the helpers perspective.

467

00:24:02,190 --> 00:24:03,817

Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah.

468

00:24:03,817 --> 00:24:06,945

A listener whose is hearing this

and they're like, wow, I, you know,

469

00:24:07,404 --> 00:24:10,407

I want to help in some way.

470

00:24:10,657 --> 00:24:13,618

What's the what's a real practical,

just first step that they can take.

471

00:24:13,618 --> 00:24:17,414

So again

not to sound like a broken record

472

00:24:17,414 --> 00:24:20,834

but if,

if this fits with your role in their life.

473

00:24:21,418 --> 00:24:23,378

Help them find a trauma therapist.

474

00:24:24,838 --> 00:24:26,423

Now that is a

475

00:24:26,423 --> 00:24:29,426

difficult topic for a variety of reasons.

476

00:24:29,759 --> 00:24:30,343

Yeah.

477

00:24:30,343 --> 00:24:33,054

I was going to say

I agree with you for sure.

478

00:24:33,054 --> 00:24:34,306

I was actually just interacting

479

00:24:34,306 --> 00:24:37,851

with someone recently

and I was encouraging them on that.

480

00:24:38,435 --> 00:24:39,352

On that track.

481

00:24:39,352 --> 00:24:41,897

And that person was like,

oh, I just never thought of that.

482

00:24:41,897 --> 00:24:44,441

That's really helpful. Yeah. Like,

can you help me with that process?

483

00:24:44,441 --> 00:24:45,150

So that worked out.

484

00:24:45,150 --> 00:24:46,568

But then sometimes there's again,

485

00:24:46,568 --> 00:24:50,113

there's a stigma around these things

and people like, oh, I don't, you know.

486

00:24:51,031 --> 00:24:52,491

But anyways, yeah.

487

00:24:52,491 --> 00:24:55,827

so it might be helpful to back up

just a little bit and

488

00:24:57,579 --> 00:24:58,872

let's talk about the field

489

00:24:58,872 --> 00:25:01,917

of people

helping and counseling in therapy.

490

00:25:01,917 --> 00:25:04,628

One of the things that could be helpful

to know is

491

00:25:04,628 --> 00:25:09,633

this is an extremely diverse

field, very diverse.

492

00:25:09,674 --> 00:25:11,718

There are coaches, life coaches.

493

00:25:11,718 --> 00:25:14,262

There are marriage counselors.

494

00:25:14,262 --> 00:25:17,140

There are addiction counselors. There are.

495

00:25:17,140 --> 00:25:20,602

And then in addition to all that,

there's all these different models.

496

00:25:20,602 --> 00:25:23,104

I mean, there's no end

to the number of models.

497

00:25:23,104 --> 00:25:27,359

It's a very bewildering alphabet

soup of of different theories.

498

00:25:28,693 --> 00:25:29,694

So what am I saying?

499

00:25:29,694 --> 00:25:34,241

That I'm saying that people helping

is about specialties,

500

00:25:34,783 --> 00:25:37,786

probably more than it used to be.

501

00:25:37,953 --> 00:25:40,038

Now, it's certainly true

that if you go to a therapist,

502

00:25:40,038 --> 00:25:42,499

they're probably going to be prepared

to deal with any number of issues.

503

00:25:42,499 --> 00:25:45,502

That's that's certainly true.

504

00:25:45,585 --> 00:25:48,588

But I guess what I'm saying is that trauma

therapy is a fairly

505

00:25:48,922 --> 00:25:52,425

specific, specialized kind of work.

506

00:25:52,425 --> 00:25:55,470

Or it can be that can be helpful context.

507

00:25:57,639 --> 00:25:58,974

Why do I say it's difficult?

508

00:25:58,974 --> 00:26:03,270

So one reason is, in spite

of what I just said about specialties,

509

00:26:03,270 --> 00:26:06,273

if you go online

and look at a therapist profile,

510

00:26:06,565 --> 00:26:10,527

the chances are it will say that they work

with trauma, right?

511

00:26:10,569 --> 00:26:15,323

I mean, most therapists,

when they list their qualifications,

512

00:26:16,241 --> 00:26:17,909

they're saying, I work with this and this.

513

00:26:17,909 --> 00:26:18,326

And, you know,

514

00:26:18,326 --> 00:26:19,244

they try to make it

515

00:26:19,244 --> 00:26:22,247

as inclusive as possible because they want

to get more and more clients.

516

00:26:22,998 --> 00:26:28,628

So it can be challenging to find someone

who is actually a specialist in trauma.

517

00:26:30,589 --> 00:26:33,550

I think,

518

00:26:34,134 --> 00:26:35,802

experience going for

519

00:26:35,802 --> 00:26:38,805

an experienced therapist is really good.

520

00:26:38,930 --> 00:26:41,808

I think networking with people

who are somewhat familiar with

521

00:26:41,808 --> 00:26:43,059

the field is really good.

522

00:26:43,059 --> 00:26:46,062

Knowing someone who knows something about

523

00:26:46,688 --> 00:26:49,608

counseling therapy,

who can make recommendations.

524

00:26:49,608 --> 00:26:52,569

Sometimes they're doctors,

they can make recommendations.

525

00:26:53,778 --> 00:26:56,781

But yeah, it's it's kind of.

526

00:26:57,324 --> 00:26:57,616

Yeah.

527

00:26:57,616 --> 00:27:00,201

Go online and Google trauma therapists.

528

00:27:00,201 --> 00:27:04,122

It can be bewildering, you know, to, Yeah.

529

00:27:04,122 --> 00:27:05,749

How do you find someone like that?

530

00:27:05,749 --> 00:27:09,377

And how do you find out

what their qualifications really are?

531

00:27:11,004 --> 00:27:14,007

So I feel like that's kind of a.

532

00:27:16,134 --> 00:27:17,010

I feel like that doesn't

533

00:27:17,010 --> 00:27:20,013

give people a lot to work with.

534

00:27:21,139 --> 00:27:24,100

So how do you find them?

535

00:27:24,100 --> 00:27:25,393

That's an issue. But.

536

00:27:25,393 --> 00:27:28,772

But there are really good people out there

that do really good work.

537

00:27:30,065 --> 00:27:31,983

I think part of what I was trying to say

earlier

538

00:27:31,983 --> 00:27:36,363

about the variety of, of different,

people helping

539

00:27:37,739 --> 00:27:39,240

fields.

540

00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:41,951

Just because someone is a counselor

or a therapist

541

00:27:41,951 --> 00:27:44,913

doesn't mean they

necessarily know how to work with trauma.

542

00:27:45,747 --> 00:27:48,249

They may offer really good things

and may do really good work,

543

00:27:48,249 --> 00:27:50,293

but it's not necessarily the same thing.

544

00:27:50,293 --> 00:27:54,798

It is a specialized kind of work and just

incredible tools have been developed.

545

00:27:55,507 --> 00:27:57,884

They're amazing things

that have been discovered

546

00:27:57,884 --> 00:28:00,887

that can be so helpful.

547

00:28:00,887 --> 00:28:01,179

Yeah.

548

00:28:01,179 --> 00:28:04,182

This is wow. Yeah.

549

00:28:04,182 --> 00:28:06,059

It's a lot to think about you know.

550

00:28:06,059 --> 00:28:09,646

And and it can be hard because it's like

551

00:28:09,646 --> 00:28:12,732

especially if you do

you go through something traumatic.

552

00:28:12,899 --> 00:28:16,152

Sometimes it's just like hard

to even recognize that it happened.

553

00:28:16,152 --> 00:28:17,904

I know there was

there was something that happened to me,

554

00:28:17,904 --> 00:28:21,074

a number of years ago,

and at the time, it didn't even register.

555

00:28:21,074 --> 00:28:22,117

But then years later, remember? Wow.

556

00:28:22,117 --> 00:28:23,827

Like that actually, that that did affect

557

00:28:23,827 --> 00:28:27,580

me, you know, and didn't

really realize it, like, for a while.

558

00:28:27,747 --> 00:28:29,958

It takes a while for it to sink in or.

559

00:28:29,958 --> 00:28:31,835

Yeah, it was just there, whoa, wait.

560

00:28:31,835 --> 00:28:33,878

Like out of left field,

you know, four years later or whatever

561

00:28:33,878 --> 00:28:36,339

it was, it's like,

where did that, you know?

562

00:28:36,339 --> 00:28:38,425

And, and so what I'm saying it.

563

00:28:38,425 --> 00:28:42,512

Yeah, it it can be

it can be really hard, you know, to like,

564

00:28:42,721 --> 00:28:43,972

figure all this stuff out.

565

00:28:43,972 --> 00:28:46,975

So, I feel like you gave us

some really good stuff.

566

00:28:47,058 --> 00:28:50,061

I feel like there's a lot

to think about here with what you shared.

567

00:28:50,311 --> 00:28:55,024

As we tie this up, or is there anything

you'd want to end this episode with?

568

00:28:55,024 --> 00:28:56,776

Something

you want to leave the listeners with?

569

00:28:56,776 --> 00:29:00,989

So the one thing we haven't really gotten

into is from the standpoint

570

00:29:00,989 --> 00:29:04,534

of the trauma sufferer,

what is helpful for them.

571

00:29:05,034 --> 00:29:10,206

And I think that's really a good place

to to land the plane for a bit.

572

00:29:12,417 --> 00:29:13,835

A lot of things and

573

00:29:13,835 --> 00:29:17,088

obviously it depends on the kind of trauma

and the personal history.

574

00:29:17,088 --> 00:29:20,091

But one thing I always encourage is

575

00:29:20,300 --> 00:29:23,303

do things that are relaxing,

576

00:29:23,845 --> 00:29:28,767

calming, soothing,

rejuvenating, energizing.

577

00:29:29,058 --> 00:29:32,228

Many people who deal with

trauma have chronic anxiety.

578

00:29:32,228 --> 00:29:34,105

That's one of the

579

00:29:34,105 --> 00:29:37,358

most difficult byproducts of trauma,

580

00:29:38,318 --> 00:29:41,654

chronic anxiety or anxiety

that suddenly gets triggered by,

581

00:29:43,156 --> 00:29:46,159

by a trauma trigger. And,

582

00:29:47,118 --> 00:29:49,496

This doesn't heal

the deepest places of the heart,

583

00:29:49,496 --> 00:29:51,539

obviously, but it sure can help.

584

00:29:51,539 --> 00:29:53,875

So exercise is really good.

585

00:29:53,875 --> 00:29:55,710

Deep breathing is really good.

586

00:29:55,710 --> 00:29:58,713

Muscle relaxation is really good.

587

00:29:58,838 --> 00:30:02,175

It's amazing the different state of mind

a person can get in

588

00:30:02,217 --> 00:30:05,220

as their body is being relaxed.

589

00:30:06,262 --> 00:30:08,973

So that's something that I think

is really helpful.

590

00:30:08,973 --> 00:30:10,433

It's helpful to know your feelings.

591

00:30:10,433 --> 00:30:12,018

It's helpful to name your feelings.

592

00:30:12,018 --> 00:30:14,771

Journaling can be a powerful way to do

that.

593

00:30:14,771 --> 00:30:17,315

It's really helpful

to know your trauma triggers.

594

00:30:17,315 --> 00:30:22,654

So if a person can see it coming

ahead of time when this happens

595

00:30:22,654 --> 00:30:27,742

or this situation or this person,

these things tend to trigger my trauma.

596

00:30:29,577 --> 00:30:30,537

To really get into that,

597

00:30:30,537 --> 00:30:33,581

we'd have to talk more about triggers

and what all that means, you know?

598

00:30:33,581 --> 00:30:36,793

But but I think the more people understand

599

00:30:36,793 --> 00:30:40,964

their individual trauma profile,

the better they tend to do.

600

00:30:42,048 --> 00:30:45,635

So. So many people,

they're experiencing trauma

601

00:30:47,095 --> 00:30:49,764

or the effects of past trauma,

602

00:30:49,764 --> 00:30:52,767

but they don't really understand

what's happening to them.

603

00:30:53,601 --> 00:30:56,271

And that really makes it

so much harder, right?

604

00:30:56,271 --> 00:30:57,897

That's got to be confusing.

605

00:30:57,897 --> 00:30:59,482

Right. Or disorienting.

606

00:30:59,482 --> 00:31:02,485

Yeah. Both. Yes. Right, right.

607

00:31:02,485 --> 00:31:06,114

And so it helps so much to understand

what's happening.

608

00:31:07,282 --> 00:31:08,783

Okay. This is my trauma.

609

00:31:08,783 --> 00:31:09,909

I'm being triggered.

610

00:31:09,909 --> 00:31:13,830

This is a trigger that that,

this is one of my triggers.

611

00:31:15,081 --> 00:31:17,250

We talk about fight flight, freeze.

612

00:31:17,250 --> 00:31:20,920

And fight mode. Flight mode, freeze mode.

613

00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:24,048

You know, it's helpful to identify

that when it happens.

614

00:31:24,048 --> 00:31:26,092

Oh, I'm in freeze mode right now.

615

00:31:26,092 --> 00:31:27,343

I feel myself shutting down.

616

00:31:27,343 --> 00:31:29,053

This is what's happening to me.

617

00:31:29,053 --> 00:31:31,180

Instead of it

just being this thing that's going on.

618

00:31:31,180 --> 00:31:33,933

And I don't know what it is,

and I don't have a name for it.

619

00:31:33,933 --> 00:31:36,895

So those things can be helpful as well.

620

00:31:38,062 --> 00:31:38,771

That's a start.

621

00:31:38,771 --> 00:31:42,775

Obviously, there's a lot more to say

about the healing process.

622

00:31:43,526 --> 00:31:47,447

Yeah, Yeah I

I feel like that's a, a good piece

623

00:31:47,447 --> 00:31:50,408

to make sure we leave people with,

you know, here are some

624

00:31:50,867 --> 00:31:53,620

you've laid out at least a couple things,

you know, some some next steps

625

00:31:53,620 --> 00:31:56,623

or some things for people to try.

626

00:31:57,081 --> 00:32:01,544

Well, Michael, I really appreciate you

taking the time to share with us today.

627

00:32:01,544 --> 00:32:07,634

This is yeah, this is a difficult topic,

and I really hope from this conversation,

628

00:32:07,842 --> 00:32:10,887

people listening to this,

have more awareness, for one thing.

629

00:32:10,887 --> 00:32:12,305

And also,

630

00:32:12,305 --> 00:32:16,935

you know, start thinking through, okay,

how can how can I be, more gracious,

631

00:32:16,935 --> 00:32:21,981

more caring, loving towards those people

who have went through something like this?

632

00:32:21,981 --> 00:32:24,400

Or if someone who has went through that.

633

00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:26,819

You know, hopefully

this has encouraged them as well.

634

00:32:26,819 --> 00:32:28,404

And and so forth.

635

00:32:28,404 --> 00:32:31,074

So yeah,

thank you for coming on and sharing today.

636

00:32:31,074 --> 00:32:31,741

Absolutely.

637

00:32:33,409 --> 00:32:36,537

Thanks for listening to this episode

with my Michael Hochstetler.

638

00:32:36,621 --> 00:32:38,456

If you found this interesting,

you should consider

639

00:32:38,456 --> 00:32:41,834

checking out our other channel,

which is a course taught by Frank

640

00:32:41,834 --> 00:32:45,630

Reed about wholehearted living,

serving others, and experiencing healing.

641

00:32:45,838 --> 00:32:49,008

You can find links for that course

in the description down below.

642

00:32:49,384 --> 00:32:52,303

Thanks again for listening

and we'll see you in the next episode.