Welcome to Podcasting Tech, a podcast that equips busy

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I'm Matthew Passi, your host and a 15 year veteran in the podcasting

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and join us on this exciting journey to unlock the full potential of your

podcast. Heading down to Dallas,

Texas, where we are chatting with Sarah Saint John. She is an

entrepreneur, podcaster, and an author. She runs a podcast

frugalpreneur, and she also has a podcast marketing

agency, which you can find at podcast marketing dot

agency. We're gonna talk to her all about that and her journey in podcasting.

Sarah, thank you so much for joining us today. Thanks so much for having me.

I appreciate it. So what was your journey

into podcasting in the beginning? Right? What what made you pick up a

microphone and and start doing this stuff? Yeah.

So, I had actually written a book called

frugalpreneur, and I decided kind of at the last

minute to, like, create a podcast to coincide with a

book to it was only gonna be, like, 10 episodes,

though. And, basically, I was interviewing the different CEOs or

someone from the different companies of some of the different

companies I talked about in the book because the book is about, like, different ways

to make money online and, and what tools and

resources and software I recommend to do it on a budget or for free

even. And so, but it was just gonna be an

extra marketing avenue, or more exposure.

But, actually, the podcast did a lot better and took off more than the book

did. And I love the the, the connections I was

making, the networking, the conversations, even the friendships. So

I've kept it going, and it's been over 5 years now.

Awesome. And just for everyone listening, the book is frugalpreneur,

building a business on a bootstrapped budget. And I'm sure for

podcasters, a bootstrap budget is a very common thing that they are

working with. What were some of your early investments that you made to

produce the podcast, and, you know, where did you look to save money in

doing so? Yeah. So the podcast I

mean, the nice thing about having a podcast for your business is

that I think a lot of people assume that it's

expensive because they're thinking of it in

terms of, like, a broadcast studio, you know, or a radio

station. But, you know, you can obviously get started for under a $100

for a podcast. I I bought, like, the cheapest mic I could find or

the cheapest good mic, which was an

ATR 21100. And then I

started out hosting on Spreaker, which I think was

free, and then it started I think it went up to, like, $7 a

month or something. Now I'm on Captivate. But, you

know, so, really, I was paying, like, under $10 a month

to, you know, pay the initial 60, 70, whatever for the

mic. USB mic goes right into your computer. So,

yeah, the startup costs were very low.

And, I mean, obviously, everybody in the podcast industry knows that.

But I think people who are getting started, they assume

that it's gonna cost more than that. So Yeah. I

mean, there's definitely a lot of literature out there that talks about

expensive home studios, expensive software, expensive

talent, hiring, engineers, hiring producers, all that stuff. But,

really you can do it. I mean, really, if you have no budget, you can

pick up your smartphone and start doing it. Now it's not going to be the

same quality as others, but right. There's nothing that can stop you from

capturing content and putting it out there to, to get yourself started.

Mhmm. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. What were some of the

so you said you were having success with the podcast. What were some of the

things that you did early on that you think

led you to that success? Was it simply having the right

content at the right time, or were there little tricks and

tips and things that you were doing that, really helped you out?

I think there are a few different things. I had had different, like,

series, like, topical series. Like, maybe for a week, I would put out

an episode every day on the topic of podcasting, and then

the next week, maybe, on self publishing. So I kinda had,

like, topical, like, miniseries within the

podcast, that people, I think, seem to enjoy.

But then, also, I was able to get fairly big names,

pretty quick in, like Pat Flynn, John Lee

Dumas, Mike Michalowicz, all that. And

I think that also helped a little bit,

at least with the authority factor, you know, like, the credibility of the

podcast and whatnot. But, yeah, so those are some things that

I did, and I interviewed a lot of

so my show is kind of a variety. It's, like, mostly interview

style, but there's also some solo episodes, and then there's

some that are, like,

maybe like a 5 minute episode about a particular

software that I use and recommend to run my business on a budget.

But yeah. So just kind of, I think, the variety as well. It wasn't

just one type of show. I think

that kind of sparked interest. So, like, some people, if they're into

interview style, they listed those. Some people feel like solo, shorter episodes,

listen to those. So yeah. Has the

strategy or has your thoughts on how

to podcast change to those 5 years or, you

know, with the advent of new software,

hardware, you know, platforms, like, what have

been some of the changes you've seen in podcasting, and and how much has

that impacted the way you go about doing it? Yeah. So

probably it was over a year ago, I had noticed that because

I check my analytics every day. And I noticed

that I suddenly had an instant increase in downloads. And I was trying to

figure out what why was that? I mean, I go on other podcasts, but, like,

I hadn't been a guest on some big podcast that would maybe,

you know, that many people would come over and download. So I was trying to

figure it out, and so I told some podcast friends, and they actually

looked on the charts. And I was in the well, at that day, I was

in the top 200, and then the next day, it was, like, the top 100

in Apple Podcasts under entrepreneurship. And I was trying to

figure out, well, why or how? Well, one thing that

I noticed when going back to my analytics was that

the episodes I had had kinda leading up to that

were much shorter, and so, therefore, they had a higher

completion rate. Like, people actually listen to, like, 90 plus

percent versus, like, I don't know, 40 or 50% or

whatever. And so I don't I

assume that must have played some kind of factor. But so ever

since then, I've I have been I still do long form

interviews, but I do a lot more shorter episodes too

because the completion rate, is so much higher. So I guess

that's one strategy or one thing that I'm starting to do differently

is, more

episodes that are shorter or just, like, solo episodes.

Okay. When did you decide that

you wanted to not just produce your own podcast, but then start

to help others in the podcasting space? So that's

been kind of in my head for at least a couple years, but

my initial thought was to do podcast production because I

produce my own show. I always have. And I was like, well, I could get

paid to do this for other people, but it just

my passion wasn't in it, I guess. I tried it, and I was like,

so but what I really enjoy and where my passion is is in, like, the

marketing side of things and finding out

the different ways to get either more downloads, more listeners, or

get publicity or PR for your podcast,

you know, things like that. And so that's now where I help people

versus, like, the production end of things. And that's also been kinda good

because there's tons of podcast production agencies,

but I can think of less than a handful that I'm

aware of of, like, specifically podcast marketing agencies. And

then I've reached out to different production agencies, you

know, that don't offer marketing services, to let

them know that I could, like, they could either refer me

out and vice versa, or I could even white label for them or whatever.

So I feel like it's kind of open more opportunities or

doors as well. So when

you are approaching a client for the first time who wants to work with

you as far as marketing assistance, what are some of the things that you

are looking for? Looking at, like, I assume it's not

a one size fits all strategy for everyone.

Yeah. I mean, the first step is always an audit, I recommend,

where I go through and just listen to their episodes, cover

art, their descriptions, their show notes, their website, their social media

presence, you know, all of these different aspects and kinda

see where they could improve to,

you know, could be as simple as the new cover art or or whatever,

but see where there's those initial areas that they could improve

to either be more searchable and findable or

me be more appealing. And I keep the

audience listening longer and get people to actually

share the podcast or refer the podcast

out and say, hey. You need to listen to this podcast, because I feel

like word-of-mouth is definitely one of the best

ways. And then, you know, looking at their marketing

strategy and trying to find ways that either they

can collaborate with other podcasters,

whether it's like feed drops or promo swaps

or, like, maybe there's a newsletter that

they could be in that's, like if their podcast is about a

particular topic or niche, obviously. Let's say they they have

a podcast about pets or something,

because we were just talking about pets before we started. So that's why it's on

my mind. But, if there are other podcasts

about pets, you know, doing the whole drop

drop and swap. But if there's newsletters about

pets, you know, finding a way to be

in those newsletters or blog posts

or, just different ways to get press

for the podcast, for audiences

that would be interested in that topic, of

course. What do you find in doing these

audits that is the biggest mistake podcasters are making? A lot

of times, it's cover art because the first step, really, I feel like,

is cover art because if someone's scrolling through a podcast player and your

cover art doesn't stand out or get someone to click, then the rest

is irrelevant. But I would say cover art, but also

how they name the episodes.

That's also a big one. You know, a lot of people will

just have, like, the guest name on the episode title or or something like

that, but it won't actually explain what they're talking about in

the episode or what the listener will get out of listening.

And then, I I would say those are the 2 big things.

Also, maybe the description, it's not long enough.

It's not SEO friendly, or there's more

keywords that they could include. Another mistake

is people don't have a website for their podcast.

I I would say those are kind of podcast.

I I would say those are kind of very common

issues. So, yeah, I used to do podcast audits as well

and talk to folks about marketing. And you said something that

I think is very true is that most of

us discover or start to listen to a new podcast from the recommendation of

others. Right. Someone we know like or trust says, oh, Hey,

Sarah, I know you're into blah, blah, blah. You should check out this. Or you

listen to a show from a trusted authority and they say, Hey, I'm talking to

Sarah on the podcast, you should check out her show and write that that gives

a lot of authority and and convince people to go over it. As a

podcaster, what do you think is the best way to

turn listeners or anybody in your,

you know, potential network into your advocate?

So you could have this is kinda tricky,

but you could have some sort of, like, affiliate or

referral program, though the only way that's gonna work is if you have a

product or service, to actually get people to refer

just your podcast. I mean, that's kinda hard. But

I think making, like, a game out of it, like,

even giving out shirts or stickers or whatever

to different podcast listeners for them to either

wear, and then that's how they you know, it's a free shirt for them, and

your, podcast is getting attention because they're wearing

it, and someone might ask them about it. But, but

just, like, rewarding, like, giving a shout out,

I think, is a big one, whether it's on a

podcast episode or in social media or email.

But, yeah, just coming up with fun ways to kind of engage

and interact and even creating, like,

you could have, like, a Voxer or fan list. There's these these

different platforms where you can, like, exchange voice mail,

so to speak. I think that's also a

good thing to do as well.

I think the more engaged you are with your listener

and, the more likely they are to share

and and and and maybe even do q and a sessions as well.

I know some people do that. I always like the idea

of, you know, communicating with your listeners. A lot of folks think

I'm in front of a microphone. This is a one way street, but real successful

podcasters, they do communicate, they do chat, they do engage with the

folks who they work, who are listening to their show, who

comment on their show, who like their show, who do anything to interact and let

them know that they are there and, you know, creating that

engagement, creating that relationship tends to, pay

dividends, in the end. What are some of the

the new or, you know, what are some of

the upcoming trends in podcast marketing that we should be keeping an eye out

for? Okay. So this is one

that I that I've recently been talking

about that I think is just a fun thing to do is,

like, Times Square billboards. Yeah.

With your, like, with your cover art and then a QR code next to it.

And you can a lot of people assume that getting a billboard in Times Square

costs 1,000 of dollars, but it actually can be as low as a

150. There's, like, different, like,

welcome to timesquare.com, I believe. And,

there there's, like, a handful of different companies that do this,

where it's a digital billboard, and you can book

a slot. And, basically, it'll display your ad

for 15 seconds every hour for

24 hours. And How much was that? A

150. Oh, that's not a thing. I know. It

is. It's not a and so I I recommend, you

know, if people are gonna do that, to try to go to New York or

or if you're already going to New York, wait. Plan around your visit that you're

already planning, and then try to get, like, a selfie or video of

you with it. But if not, they do have,

what do you call it? Like, a live a live

stream. I don't know. I was gonna say screen share with it.

Yeah. A live stream of it. So you can at least snap a

shot of it. Like Yeah. Do you have a sense of when each hour it's

going to happen, or it's, you know, luck of the draw?

No. Yeah. You just know what day. And then, of course,

it's for 15 second 15 seconds every

hour. So, yeah, you might have to stand around for

a little bit. But I mean, I'm gonna be in New York tomorrow, so

I'm just gonna be trying to do this. I don't know. Well,

I'll, if I get this done, I'll share a link with everybody and I'll I'll

share a screenshot of me in front of the the billboard talking about what it

is that we're going to put on there. So that is, that is very

cool. Thank you for that resource, and we'll include a link so that

you, the audience, can find it as well on your own and, try to try

to check that out. We are chatting with Sarah Saint John,

entrepreneur, podcaster, and author. As a reminder, the podcast and book are

both titled frugalpreneur. And if you are looking for

some help with your marketing efforts, you can check out podcast marketing

dot agency. So, Sarah, when we have people on the show, we

always like to ask everybody the same three questions, and then kinda curious to get

your take, especially given your time in the podcasting industry

and how you work with others. So first off I I'm

asking, is there a place where you would like to see improvement in podcasting

overall? Like whether it's discovery distribution,

things like that. I would like

to see Apple and you know, the big ones,

Apple, Spotify. And I it might be Spotify

is doing this now, but where you can actually, like, communicate with listeners where they

can comment on the episode. I

thought I heard Spotify might be doing that. I'm not sure if that's

There are. Yeah. There is now some commenting and messaging features, in in

the Spotify dashboard. And even if you don't host with Spotify, you can go

and and, you know, engage with your audience there. Okay.

Yeah. But, Apple doesn't have that yet, so I think

that would be nice. There are some platforms like

Goodpods and Podvine, although I'm I'm not sure that

Podvine exists anymore, where,

you know, you can have engagement and, communicate with

your audience. I think that's the big issue with podcasting is just

there's unlike, say, a blog or a

YouTube video or something like that where people can easily comment

most of the time with podcasts, at least on Apple Podcasts, you can't

do that. And so that is what I would like to see

change. Okay.

Is there a piece of technology on your wish list, whether it's something

that you know is out there that you need to get your hands on or

something that hasn't been created yet that would make your life easier as a podcaster?

Well, I will say that what you just

created has been something that you know, the little beacons,

I think, that is awesome, when you're

at conferences and whatnot for people to just scan like that.

Let's see. Another technology who

Could be hardware. It could be software.

Let's see. I would say

that is a good question. I wonder I'm now I'm just

thinking about the whole beacon thing. If there's a way

that it can not only share

your podcast, but I don't know how you would do this, but

somehow, like, you would get

information of the other person's podcast. I don't know if I'm making sense.

No. So almost like a, a pod swap of sorts. Right? And it's

like, you know, how do we connect to each other kind of a thing.

Yeah. That that might be something that would be interesting.

It's an interesting thought. I will, I will definitely, look

into it and see if we can come up with something that, makes sense in

that frame. So thank you for that idea. And by the way, for those who

don't know what Sarah's talking about, we have these podcast beacons, little NFC,

based key fobs and wristwatches, and you just tap your phone on here, and

it'll take people directly to your podcast or landing

page landing page of your choice. And lastly

is, are there any podcasts that you're listening to that are your absolute

favorites? The kind that when a new episode pops up, you were stopping everything else

that you're doing to go listen to this or, you know, ones that you just

will absolutely never miss? Oh,

well, I subscribed to over 50 podcasts. So, I'm trying to think.

Branded Podcast. That's, with Larry Roberts and Sarah

Lohse. They're both familiar or popular

people in the podcast space. There's a lot of podcasts I

listen to that are about podcasting, but there's too many of them,

so I'm not even gonna, start to list those. I would say

after hours entrepreneur with Mark Savant,

that's also one that I enjoy.

Let's see. Yeah. Most of these are podcast related.

That's okay. I mean, obviously, our audience is a little bit more podcast centric.

So if you have a couple of good ones there that you like, you know,

and to those who don't get mentioned, it's okay. Don't take offense. She said she

has a lot of them. Yeah.

Oh, a non podcast one is the email sound booth with

Liz Wilcox. She was actually on

Survivor. But, yeah, she just launched her podcast recently.

But, yeah, as far as podcasts about podcasting, of course, School of Podcasting,

I mean, everybody knows that one.

Podcasting business school, podcast

workflows. Yeah. There's a whole bunch, but,

Yeah. I those are definitely ones that I always listen to.

And this podcast too, podcasting tech. Oh, thank you.

That's a double double promo. Podcasting tech at a podcast beacon

mentioned in one shot. We appreciate you, Sarah. Check is in the mail.

Once again, chatting with Sarah Saint John, entrepreneur,

author, podcaster. Check out the frugalpreneur both in audio and book

version. And if you're looking for help growing your show, podcast marketing

dot agency will have links to everything in the show notes. Sarah, thank you so

much for joining us today. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

Thanks for joining us today on Podcasting Tech. There are links to all

the hardware and software that help power our guest content and

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podcastingtech.com. You can also subscribe to the show on your

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while you're there. Thanks, and we'll see you next time on Podcasting

Tech.