Welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction. This is your host, Dr. G. And our music is written and produced by Mike Sullivan. Today we have an awesome guest. We have Vicki Deisner from the Ohio Animal Advocates. Welcome Vicki, and thank you for

being here. Good evening. Thank you for having me.

Vicky is part of Ohio Animal Advocates, and she's going to talk about it here in a second. It's an organization that I'm involved with as a board member, and we do a lot of great things for animal welfare. So first to, to start things off, how about you tell us about the path that has taken you to where you are

today? Um, well, personally, um, I spent the first 15 years of my career in the medical profession. I have a undergrad degree in zoology, a graduate degree from the University of Cincinnati Medical Center in physiology and a clinical degree from the University of Chicago in respiratory therapy. So I spent many, many years, working with pulmonary patients, uh, because I am one myself, I have asthma. Um, what kind of made me start looking outside that world is actually doing animal research in my master's degree. And I started seeing what I felt were some of the cruel situations that animals were put into in our current, uh, you might say political and um, cultural system. And started really like looking outside of what was going on. And it happened one Christmas, my ex-husband got me a book called Seal Song, and he knew how much I loved animals and it had a nice furry seal on the outside, but he never opened it up to see they were being clubbed on the inside. Wow. And at that point, I, I wrote to the producers of that book, international Fund for Animal Welfare and wanted information, and pretty soon I was on everybody's mailing list and starting to be a backseat, uh, weekend activist and sending money. And finally it hit me at one point that I needed to make the change and figure out how to get in the environmental animal welfare world. At that point I was in Cincinnati, Ohio. I remember driving up and having an interview with the Nature Conservancy and showing them that I had a business background at that point cuz I was a hospital administrator running home care companies. And I had a marketing background and I had all the science background and they told me that I had no transferrable skills. And so on the way back to Cincinnati, I said, what now do I need to do to get skills to make this transfer in my life? And I started looking at the magazines I get and everybody seemed to have a JD behind their name. So I thought, okay, well I'll go to law school. And um, and with no more thought than that, I went to law school and Worked my way through and ended up in Columbus, um, in the Attorney General's office doing environmental enforcement. After a while I ended up going over to Ohio Environmental Council and being their director and working on a variety of environmental issues, which actually included things like factory farms and other issues. So started getting exposed to actually the intersection between animal welfare and environmental work. And oddly enough, um, we moved our offices and the building that the Nature Conservancy used to be in became our offices and the office where I was told I had no transferrable skills, became my office. So you never know sometimes how karma happens and after 15 or more years, basically in doing environmental work, including going to DC and working on the hill, uh, for National Wildlife Federation, I had the opportunity because there were so many animal welfare conferences going on there to go and see that actually it was becoming, you know, a professional culture that was moving laws and doing exciting things like, um, the livestock care standards. That was moved by Proposition two in California by H S U S, and realized that there was finally really an opportunity probably to make headway in legal and legislative advancement by moving over to that world. And basically came back to Ohio as ASPCA's Midwest, uh, legislative director. And after time I realized the importance of actually building it from the ground like they did in the environmental community of moving from not just national organizations to statewide organizations that understand what's needed in the trenches of that state, the political environment and the culture, and what needs to be done on a state level and a local level. And so actually that's part of the reason that Ohio Animal Advocates came to play is because also I was seen around me, in other states, that was starting to happen, of building state animal advocacy organizations. In fact, myself, on behalf of O A A and a number of other state animal advocacy groups, have formed the coalition of state animal Advocacy groups, and we're up to about 20 states now and want to grow eventually to 50 because we need to help each other do the work we need to do, you know, on the ground. That's

amazing. I'm, I'm really glad that we get to have this conversation and do this interview because I didn't know that background about you. I didn't know that you were in the medical field, and it's such a, an amazing story of transition. Just seeing, you know, thinking that you have that, that career, that call, and then actually finding your call and then finding what you are meant to do for animal welfare and animals. So I'm really glad that all of that brought you to where you're at. So what is Ohio Animal Advocates and what is the goal of Ohio Animal Advocates? Why was it created?

Well, you know, looking at that idea of needing somebody on the ground, we wanted to be an advocate that actually worked for animals by affecting systematic change, really, and working toward humane treatment of animals. Now, this includes active support of local and state legislation for the prevention of animal cruelty, as well as public awareness campaigns designed to teach communities across Ohio about the ongoing threats to animals. Um, we began as a small, dedicated group of Ohioans concerned about this issue. Basically the unmet needs of Ohio animals that weren't totally being served by national organizations. So, Our board members, committee members, founders, volunteers, have been working on animal welfare issues on the ground and local communities throughout Ohio, as well as statewide policy at the State House for years and years. So these are kind of the folks that have seen it, they've done it, and they saw the need. And that need they felt was basically taking this dedicated group of people bringing us all together in 2018 to form Ohio Animal advocates with that goal of raising visibility of issues on Ohio's animal population with a regular face at the State House in city councils and throughout the state, and our mission is to make Ohio a place where all animals are protected from cruelty, abuse and neglect.

That's part of what is important for me and what kind of attracted me to your group is just that I practice as a veterinarian, but my real interest lies within veterinary forensics and animal welfare, that kind of stuff. One thing that I always said, I have always said is I hate politics. I hate anything that has to do with politicians and laws and, and all of that stuff. I don't wanna get involved. But then the more I have learned about animal welfare, the more I have realized that that's how you effect change. Right. It's by

changing trust in the root causes.

Exactly. So I cannot, I cannot complain about something if I am not trying to challenge it and change the way that, that those laws are written. Right. If you disagree with something and you're passionate about it, then you wanna find ways to, to do something about it. It has been an interesting journey for me and really informative, being able to go up with you guys and then in some of the other times that I have gone into to speak in front of different organizations, uh, governmental organizations in, in favor of animals. And I have a long way to go, but I'm sure that you all are going to help push me forward. What is the vision for Ohio Animal Advocates, what are the values of the organization?

Well, we would love to make Ohio, uh, basically the national model for the humane treatment of animals. Now, as I say that, when I started at A S P C A in 2012, we were 45th at the nation, ranked by animal legal defense fund for basically having, you know, laws to protect animals. So we had a long ways to go. Now we're basically. 11 years down the pike, and, um, especially with the cross reporting bill that we just got passed, we're now up to 24. So we're halfway to getting to the top. But, you know, um, it's our effort to really make, uh, Us a model for the rest of the nation and our values of, what do we base it on? How do we do this? We want to champion the advancement of animal welfare in Ohio by initiating and implementing effective humane policies and programs. And we do that by building diverse partnerships and, and basically leading collaborative efforts. We can't do it alone, and we can't do it just with humane professionals, we need to do it with other groups. Um, for example, with the issue of cross reporting, you know, if we're gonna mandate animal abuse reporting, we need to bring in social workers. We need to bring in therapists and counselors, people who are basically first responders, law enforcement, you know, home health aids. Um, We need to bring in everybody to the table to make this happen. We have to look to achieve positive, innovative solutions. We need to apply the best available resource and information, be professional and involve all citizens and stakeholders across the state. Because, you know, basically, almost everyone has a pet in the home, if not many. And most of those pets are in our beds. They're part of our families. And so it's a bipartisan issue. Everyone cares.

I was speaking with, uh, Dana Pannella recently on one of my previous podcasts about the importance of these laws, and again, like these are the ways to, to do things. We were talking about how even like bestiality was not illegal up to 2017, I believe it was, that that passed. So, We, we know about the link. You know, we have talked about the link between animal cruelty and interpersonal violence and the importance of, as veterinarians to recognize animal abuse as a way to protect individuals. Like so many cases of domestic violence, people are abusing, um, the, the individuals in the house or using the animals as leverage to control the, the people in the house. Uh, and then we were also talking about the cross reporting bill, because I've always been strong about reporting any kind of suspected animal cruelty. But I know that a lot of my peers and other, other veterinarians have not wanted to do that because of concerns about retaliation, because of concerns about getting involved. What's gonna happen? What if I'm wrong? And all of that on all of those things. And one of the reasons when representative Lanese was pursuing that bill, and you all asked me to come and speak in favor of it, I was very honored and very happy to do so. Right. Because I feel that as veterinarians, it is our duty to help our patients and not just in providing vaccines and providing general care, just in general animal welfare. So that was something, something great. And we were talking about trying to educate through our podcast episode to veterinarians about the consequences of not doing so because now we have to. Now it, it is important. Now, it's not a, it's not a choice. Now if we don't do it, we can have penalties. So with HB 33, can you discuss basically what it means to cross report and what, what services have to report to who?

Absolutely. Um, and I will share with you, we actually have one of the most comprehensive bills across the nation and many states are looking to us for help with strategy and how to consider, how to do all the training that we did because it was a parallel track of training and working on the bill so that. As professions got trained and understood the link between animal, human violence and actually that animal abuse is the first, you might say, uh, red flag. Um, the sentinel warning that actually will the rest of the family violence, uh, will go up. I mean, it's actually a way for humane services, um, to help human services to actually solve a family violence situation. So it's, you know, a partnership situation. And as many professions learned, they felt a lot more comfortable and actually turned around and came and actually were proponents of our bill, which made a big difference, including the O V M A, which that has not happened in other states. Um, as you know, now, they teach the issue of the link at the Midwest Veterinarian Conference and they have a guide out, and articles and they are in favor of it because actually, I mean, you really are serving your clients that come in not only the animal, but if that animal's been abused. Um, I mean, there's times when actually a woman has used, a woman victim has come in and used the animal. As you might say, a cover to slip, a note to, uh, you know, someone else in the office to say, I am being abused, please call the police. So it's really looking at it from the whole, you might say, a holistic perspective that you're helping if you can save an animal, can save a family. And indeed, um, you know, their mandatory reporting is not only mandatory reporting in the fact that there's penalties, but you get civil and criminal immunity. So professions are able, you might say, to go over that hump of having confidentiality, holding them back and start to work with other professions. And indeed, just a year ago, In fall, well, not even a year ago, I guess we're not quite there yet, but about six months ago, uh, Dr. Janet, uh, Hoy Glock, who is a professor of social worker professor at the University of Toledo, she was doing a presentation at Toledo Humane and the humane officer shared what a difference that bill made because they're now working hand in hand with veterinarians in the community. That are able to give notes, are able to give pictures, are able to give the evidence that was always needed to build cruelty cases that didn't happen before, and building those cruelty cases will not only help that animal, but that will help the family. Yeah.

We were discussing about the importance of having those things on people's records, right? Like when, when somebody is abusing an animal, Especially when there is severe serious injuries. We were discussing a case that, that I was working on, that the prosecutor decided not to pursue charges for the animal abuse. The animal was starved to death in their basement, and there was proof that they did it on purpose just to get back at each other, and the prosecutor just chose not to pursue that because there were other felonies that they were already charging these people with. And it is so important to add those animal cruelty charges to, at the very least, keep these people from being able to own an animal ever again, but there's children involved. So the link is, is just so, I don't know. I, I think that we have a, we still have a long way to go, so it's good that some of these laws are in effect to kind of push us forward, but we definitely still have, have a long way to go.

Well, I was gonna share with you a case that happened that lays it out as boy as shall we say, visually as you can. But it, it, it, dr it really drives the point home. Um, there's a detective that I co-present with a lot in regard to law enforcement training and he's in wood County. Lucas County is the county in Ohio that has the highest amount of domestic violence, could be related to human trafficking and other issues, but it just does in that area. Also has the highest amount of bestiality in the state. But at any rate, um, there was a case that started in Lucas County where um, an abuser came home, a perpetual abuser, and was mad at his wife and her daughter, and basically grabbed the favorite shihtzu and slit its throat. Took the daughter's favorite scarf, tied it around the Shih Tzu's neck, hung it from a tree in the front yard for days to teach them both a lesson. The neighbors called and so the police came and interviewed the wife and the daughter, and what they chose to do is they brought the guy in, they put an ankle monitor on him, but basically let him go and said, get outta Lucas County. He ended up in Wood County where his sister was. He then contacted his wife and said, I'm going to commit suicide. Come and get my property for you, and you know, your daughter. Well, she, you know, ran down. She was scared to death. He was gonna commit suicide. What he did was kidnap her, beat her for two and a half days, strangle her. And only when his sister came home did he shove the wife in a car and take off to another county, Henry County, and was going to take her to his favorite fishing ground and kill her. She remembered there was a pen knife in the glove compartment. She got at it, she stabbed him in the leg, um, distracted him enough that she opened the door, rolled out and the car behind her picked her up, got her to a hospital. And when Detective Curtis got there, he said it was the worst case of strangulation they ever saw of a woman that she lived. And, you know, thank goodness she is speaking to people about this and trying to, you know, draw the point home that we have to take the link between animal and human violence seriously. And when Toledo, when, when it was looked back into his history, he's in jail now, but when looked into his history, he had been a previous abuser of both previous wives, previous girlfriends and animals. So why wasn't that discovered? But I mean, the connection is there. And you know, we have to pay attention to it. And I would bring up, we finally passed in Ohio last year, a felony strangulation bill. We were the second last state in the nation to pass a felony strangulation bill. So before that it was just a misdemeanor? Yeah. South Carolina finally did too. But we and South Carolina, we were the last, we're the

last ones. Yeah. Yeah. I, yeah, it's, we have to take crimes more seriously because there is with, with things like, even when we look at like dog fighting, right? What dog fighting is a crime in itself and now it's a, and it's a felony, but dog fighting is linked to other crimes. It's linked to drugs, it's linked to weapons, it's linked to, uh, gambling, human trafficking, uh, child abuse. I know that prostitution. Yeah. People that, that abuse. Animals. Animals are defenseless victims. So somebody that's gonna abuse a defenseless victim, an animal, a human, a child, and an elderly, it's all potentially going to going to be the same. Gonna present the same as far as I, the way I

see it. Well, uh, an abuser starts with the most defenseless member of the family that has no voice. And actually they say that abusers that go after animals end up being definitely control issues and actually become more, more dangerous than other abusers. But you find animal abuse behind school shootings, mass shootings, terrorism, um, serial killers, you know, I could go on and on. Unfortunately, it shows up everywhere because people choose the most defenseless, uh, species and they, you know, they start there. Phil

Arkow with the link. I know that in one of his, uh, newsletters, he released information about some of the shootings that happened last year, and he reviewed the backgrounds of the individuals that committed these mass shootings and he found, uh, Elements of animal abuse in those, and they were ignored. I believe in one of them, the parents were recommended that the child seek professional help and the parents didn't. And then this kid ends up shooting up other people, murdering other people. It starts at a young age, and we have to recognize that as a young age, especially as parents, you know, I have a 17 year old, so to me it's really important to make sure that he has good morals, he has good values, and that he can respect all life. He can respect animals and, and everything else. So I think it's really important for parents to understand and if they see something, to not just brush it out, to take it seriously, because yeah, sometimes kids are experimenting and they don't know what they're doing or, or whatever the, the case may be. But if something, if something is not okay, we have to do something about it. Um, absolutely. I had a, I had a case of a 13 year old that sexually assaulted their dog and. As far as we know, that was the first time that that child had done something. The family members, they had children in the house. If I had not reported it, if I had not done something about it, what would've happened then? Then this kid would've gone home and potentially escalated to assault the children in the house. Grown up to be, he was only 13 at the time, so he could have grown up to be a, a serial killer or be a serial rapist. So That's right. Really important. Really important for, for everybody to recognize and to do their part. And the cross reporting is not just for veterinarians to report, but then other groups have to report as well. Is that correct?

Correct. Social workers, counselors, therapists, and in a cross situation, law enforcement, dog wardens, animal control officers, and humane agents have to report child and uh, elder abuse.

What other rules on legislations have you worked on that are related to animal welfare? Um,

when I first got back here to Ohio, I got pulled into the throes of finalizing the first puppy mill regulations that were passed, uh, the livestock care standards, uh, the exotics ban, uh, because the Zanesville massacre had just happened, and that was where, um, a man had shot himself but opened up cages of close to I think 50 animals, lions, and tigers and bears, and they were running crazy around, uh, Zanesville and no one was prepared for that. And unfortunately, law enforcement, uh, killed them. All but a few that ended up going to the zoo. But, um, that woke, that definitely woke the state government up that it was time to really look at doing that. I personally have taken a route down the issue of domestic and family violence and passed the pet protective orders, the bestiality laws, the felony cruelty worked on, uh, felony cockfighting. At the same time, you know, before this cross reporting we worked on, um, you know, animals in hot cars. We'd gotten, issues of, well, actually this was actually because my dog got kicked off of a restaurant patio, I, we should have called it Dotty's Law. But at any rate, um, you know, animals are allowed on restaurant patios now, um, there's, you know, animals can be addressed by emergency, um, like med techs and that, that are out in an ambulance if an animal's been hurt as well as a person on a disaster, um, scene. Just so many different laws we have dealt with. There's been about 10 that have been passed in Ohio in the last 10 years that I've been here, and in other states I've worked in. We've worked on Ag gag bills, which actually was gonna make it a felony for somebody to report felony cruelty. Um, you know, document it. Um, issues of trying to, uh, change state constitutions and create rights to farm and rights to hunt and fish. And that sounds innocent enough until you realize that means that elevates the rights of those categories of people above others. An example would be in Indiana, they did pass. Uh, right to farm and what's happened is that if a factory farm moves next to someone in a rural community, someone that's been there for years, even though you might say the nuisance came to them, they have no right anymore under tort law. To sue for that nuisance. So they have to tolerate the loss of property value, the loss of clean air and clean water around their property. The flies and everything. The smells. And because basically the rights of farmers are above everything else. If you look at the rights of hunters and fishermen, you don't need fishing license or hunting license cuz you could hunt and fish to the point that you exterminate the populations. So, you know, those are dangerous things that we have to look at. Um, right now we're looking at issues of ODNR is getting ready to release a Bobcat management plan. Now that's not really management. What that basically is, is looking at doing a, a harvest of the animals, even though they just got off the state endangered list. And, you know, our, our very secretive animals, and a lot of 'em are, you know, do get hit at this roadkill. But you know, there's a part of the population that wants to trap 'em and, you know, sell their skins. Um, but what will that do for the whole ecosystem? So, you know, issues like that, or I don't know if you've heard of, uh, wildlife killing contests, that is something that has escalated in the last five to eight years where, there will be these weekend tournaments for prizes. Could be cash, could be other things that, you know, people will go out and kill as many, say in Ohio tends to be coyotes, as many animals as you can kill. The biggest, the smallest, the prettiest, you know, whatever. And, um, you may kill hundreds of animals in a weekend, but for what? It's not for wildlife management, it's for the sake of killing. And, you know, certainly these are things that we need to address and we need to look at.

There is a difference between, like, I, I don't hunt, I don't like the idea of hunting, but I somewhat understand why some people hunt and especially when they hunt for food. The idea of somebody killing something for fun or for price, that to me, there, there is something wrong with getting an enjoyment out of just killing for fun. It. You know, it, it's just, I don't know. It's just not right and it's not like I was raised to, to think that way because I grew up in Puerto Rico. Cock fighting was like, it's a normal thing. It's part of the culture. And I, and still I knew within me that it was not okay. I didn't like the, the idea of it. Um, so, so yeah, it's, it's kind of sad that we encourage people to exterminate wildlife without thinking about their repercussions. We start thinking about some of the animals that are taking over and we're taking away their predators. So we're not, we're not thinking about what our actions are doing to our environment and our ecosystem, and then we are looking for solutions when we're eliminating our solutions. Right.

That, that was well said. Absolutely.

Yeah. Recently we were dealing with the problem of allowing breeders to perform surgeries. So that was, uh, kind of disappointing. But do you wanna Yes. Explain people what, what the, what, what was going on with that? Well

first I'll start by sharing the sad fact that Ohio is number two in the nation for being the worst regarding cruelty in puppy mills only right behind Missouri. And, um, in that we have continued to fight ever since the first puppy mill regulation bill was passed for, um, better bills, um, better implementation, you might say, of the bill that was on the table, the legislation and, um, you know, Ohio Department of Ag is the, um, Yeah, the agency with the authority to implement and enforce. Now, mind you, uh, even in the first bill, there are penalties for recalcitrant breeders and that violate the laws. There's the option to take away permits. That's never ever happened either penalties or the repeal of a permit. But, um, in 2018, a number of, uh, our groups worked together to basically improve the first bill that passed in 2013. One of the issues that we had problem with in the 2013 bill was that it allowed breeders to still do surgery. And so that was changed. And actually, um, the statement as it read was basically that, in 2018, what the rule says is if a surgery or euthanasia procedure is required, use a veterinarian to perform the procedure. Now, to me sounds pretty clear cut. But what has happened is, I mean, first of all, in 2018 that passed. The agency had the responsibility to pass rules within the next year. They did not pass rules for four years till 2022. Um, when they could finally come up with a way you might say, to try to figure out how to skirt that and what they claim is that. Um, tail docking, which is going, as you will explain, going through tissue, going through bone, going through arteries, going through skin. Um, it's clear cut surgery, but, um, and it's not light, uh, that basically no reason a breeder can't do that. No reason they can't pull, dew claws. And why, how do they get around what the law says? Will they, hang on that word required. And they say that that's supposed to be defined as medically required. And since those procedures are not medically required, but required by the A K C breeding standards that. It's not really medically required, so they can still keep doing it because the breeders still want to, they wanna save money if animals are hurt, if they die, they're expendable to them. And you know, basically what seems very odd is when we originally challenged this in April, at JCARR, and I will explain that cuz people go JCARR? What's that? It's the Joint Commission on Agency Rule Review. And in Ohio, since we have a full-time legislature, since most states do not, you know, we can give legislators other things to do, including having a JCARR panel, a committee of legislators that review every agency rule that's proposed and the public has a right to challenge those rules if they are in conflict with the law. So we indeed did challenge those rules because we feel it is a direct conflict with the law. And gee, the JCARR staff, all the JCARR legislative members all felt it was and told the agency to go back to the drawing board. Come December in 2022, we're back because O D A is again offering rules and regulations. But this time they came up with a new angle. They stuck in that they were gonna give the breeders a how-to manual. Well, this isn't a toaster. It's, it's live animals. And indeed, for whatever reason or whatever money was exchanged, you had a situation where all of a sudden the staff of JCARR and the legislators turned upside down and said, oh, we think there's no conflict with the rule, with the law because there's a how-to manual. And, um, we would disagree with that. And they may have won that battle, but they have not won the war. And we need to work on this to improve the lives of the puppies that grow up in these puppy mills, and unfortunately, the breeding animals that are left behind. One other problem that didn't seem to get as much traction but is just as dangerous is the fact that in the new rule, it wasn't there before that basically the veterinarians, that their kennels are the clients, the puppy mill kennels, always had to see every dog in a kennel once a year, which doesn't seem like a lot anyhow, but put together an overall management plan. Well, now animals under six months of age are exempted from being seen, and they're the animals that are gonna go through these procedures. And so this is really disconcerting because they won't be in the records, then the discarded animals won't be reported. Things are, you might say, um, under the covers.

It's kind, it's kind of ridiculous that a, a forensic veterinarian, the things that they are allowed to do are things that if any other person was to perform, then we would be able to press charges against them. Yes. For animal cruelty, because they are doing procedures. They're saying that these procedures are required by the A K C, but AKC requires that for show animals. Well, these animals are not being shown. I mean, like, I don't know that people go to a puppy mill to buy a show dog. Right. If you're gonna. If you're going to go through the process of showing a dog, of getting a dog of pedigree to breed it, to show it, you're going to go to a reputable breeder that has done all the testing, that has done, uh, certification of, of hips, eyes, that has evaluated the breed requirements because the whole idea of showing and breeding is to have the best of the best of each breed, the best representatives. We're trying to breed out diseases, breed out defects, and puppy mills just do it for the money so they don't care who they're breeding. Right? I have seen breeders, I have seen puppy mills, breed dogs that are deformed with conditions like neospora that causes their knees to not form properly, and they still breed those dogs and sell the puppies. Uh, and then once the, once the poor dogs that are deformed are done breeding, then they just give them to rescues because then sometimes some of the rescues, you know, we, we love the rescues and we wanna help the rescues, but sometimes the rescues are just helping these people just maintain the cycle. They're just, enabling them, by keeping, taking these animals and not helping with reporting and. From the rescue perspective, I understand their concern because they feel that the, the rules and the laws are so weak at times that it, that they feel that if they say something, nothing's gonna happen to the breeders because as you mentioned, they will come in and they will do their inspections and they will maybe get a fine or get a slap on the wrist, but nothing happens. They don't get shut down, they don't get their licenses is taken away. So then these rescues are put in a hard place because if they say something, then they're not gonna be able to save the animals that, that they're able to. So it's just a, it's just a really sad and unfortunate situation. And the more people purchase animals from some of these pet stores, chain pet stores and puppy mills and backyard breeders, the more they are allowing this business to to go

on. Well, and there's consumer fraud as you started to put the scenario together. What ends up happening is people go into stores like Petland and they get shown a dog and they get put in a little space and play with the dog, and they fall in love, and then pretty soon they find out the dog is thousands of dollars and they can't afford it. But, oh, there's a, there's an option here. There's a loan you can get, um, and you know, People sign these loans that have in some states gone up to 187% interest rate, and then they end up with animals sometimes that are so sick that they die in a week. They die in a month. They die in a year, or they carry on congenital issues or other issues throughout their life. And people lose these animals. They have to pay the medical care, and yet they're paying three more years in interest rates and high loan fees. Um, on a dead dog. It, it's a atrocity.

And, and it is very clear that places like Petland, they do not care about the individual animal because they even have those puppy for life type things because they don't, they, they barely pay anything for these dogs that are selling thousands and thousands of dollars for. So if somebody has a dog that dies or, I've even seen dogs that have been like, hit by a car, like something that's not related to the health of that animal. And then they just go back and they get another one. They're, they're just very indispensable. They are, don't really care about the individual animal, and they are preying on on the hearts of people and the emotions of people that are going in. Like, how many of those are impulse buys? How many people just walk in because they wanna see and play with the animals? Or they just stop by for another reason. They stop by to buy pet food or to buy a collar for somebody, and they end up with a $5,000 bill and a and a dog, and not just the payment for the dog. Then it's like, here's a bed and here's the collar and here's food, and here's vitamins and things that you don't know be sold to you by somebody that doesn't have an education in animal care. But that's telling you that this is everything that the animal needs. And then let's not even go into the diseases that some of these animals bring out that are zoonotic, that people can get

Campylobacterium.

Yeah, HSUS uh, a couple of years ago brought us a dog that they had gotten from a Petland, and they brought it directly to us and the dog had horrible diarrhea and we tested it and it had very resistant Campylobacter, and it took months to get rid of it. Um, so these are, these are problems that, again, the, as long as people are purchasing these animals and just promoting these purchases, then the problem is not gonna go away. Everything is supply and demand. So if the demand goes away, the supply dwindles and we feel bad for the animals that are kind of gonna get stuck in the middle in the process. But something has to get done because, I mean, has to change it. It's just, it's just animal cruelty. I'm very passionate about hoarders like looking into hoarders, and one of the types of hoarders are the exploiter hoarders, and I just fail to find a difference between an exploiter hoarder and a puppy miller. I. But yet we take exploiter hoarders to jail, or at least give them fines and give them probation and make 'em not have animals. But then puppy mills, which are exploiter hoarders, get to benefit and make profit and everything else. So at some point, somebody has to understand the difference and, and understand that that is not okay.

Well, and Dr. G as you point out, you know, what's the difference between those two? Why is it that if it was outside a puppy mill, absolutely a veterinarian would be required to do these procedures we mentioned, but somehow because it's in a puppy mill, the vet licensing board let's, the vet let's basically vets off the hook that just oversee the breeders doing this. It makes no sense. It makes no sense for your profession.

One of the things that I was discussing with, Dana Pannella was the fact that it's animal cruelty and neglect to not follow a veterinarian's recommendation. So if an animal is suffering, if an animal is not getting proper medical care, then that individual, that owner can be charged with animal neglect. Animal cruelty, whether it's a misdemeanor or a felony, but they can get charged with one of them. But, as you mentioned, those rules do not apply to puppy mills. And I mean, I, I just, again, I, it's, it's the same, it's the same being, it's still a companion animal. It's, they're not livestock and all of a sudden, just because they're owned by a high volume breeder, they're just considered livestock and they're treated as such. Uh, and not that livestock should be treated poorly, correct. But there are different laws for livestock management and care, and different laws for companion animals. And all of a sudden it's like everything gets thrown into the mix. Like they're just because they belong to, to certain groups, they can be treated as

livestock. Absolutely. Well, in fact, O D A says, you know, basically, they see the commercial dog breeding audience as basically they are livestock because now they're trying to suggest that they're going to go ahead and because they're finding, uh, particularly the Amish breeders are never there when they go to do unscheduled visits, that they want to start thinking about doing scheduled visits. So certainly everybody can clean up their act before they get there, but, um, that way, you know, maybe they're looking at trying to save money. And instead of having inspectors that are trained to really look at these kennels, they're gonna have an inspector that may go look at a slaughterhouse or a dairy farm or whatever in an area and, and then, you know, also schedule a commercial dog breeding visit, because after all, like ODA A says it's all livestock. Yeah. That's, that's one

problem. Yeah. And that's one of my hopes is that, you know, that's, Again, one of the reasons why, why I feel that I wanted to get involved is that I'm not gonna do anything from, from inside of a clinic. You know, I'm helping animals by doing high volume sterilization, and I'm helping control over population. And I'm helping control the, the health of the community, animals and that kind of stuff. But these animals that are kind of ignored and neglected. Somebody needs to do something for them, somebody needs to fight for them. So I suppose I, I got some fight in me, so it is,

it's something that I we're so glad to have you. We need, we need people who are willing to get up there and advocate and, um, you know, look at, look at the cruelty and look past it and what we can do to change it. Get to the root of it. Right, exactly.

So what are, so what are the overall, the areas of work for Ohio Animal advocates? Like what are the, the key

areas of work? Um, well, I mean besides, you know, policy work we do, we have a number of program areas. Um, one of the things is eliminating breed discrimination in Ohio communities because we did get rid of that state law and in fact we did some lawsuits and, um, in a number of appellate districts we're not even allowed to have breed discrimination like in the central Ohio appellate district. But, um, you know, there's still some towns and there's still landlords that are trying to do that. And in particular, Now using it as an excuse for evicting people. And part of this ties into also the pet assistance we do for homeless and low income. And I bring this up cuz this is a big area that's growing in Ohio. Unfortunately, it's growing everywhere because post pandemic, finally the eviction bans have ended. And so for tenants who didn't pay, maybe weren't able to pay, they lost their jobs for a long time. They can be evicted now. And there can be reasons used for because they have, um, animal that they consider as breed, dangerous or just because they have an animal. And actually under the Fair Housing Act, you absolutely are allowed to bring in a service animal or emotional support animal w long as you have the appropriate paperwork. And there are situations now where landlords are ignoring them. But definitely the issue of challenges of low-income families is growing and we wanted to provide assistance in this. So one of the things, we have a statewide resource list that actually one of the big lists we have is pet food pantries around the state. So that will help people in those situations along with where there's low cost bay neuter, um, trap neuter release, um, to help with um, C community cats. Where to report cruelty, because that can be very confusing in every county. Safe havens to get animals out of domestic violence and wildlife. Um, rehabers. So we provide that. We, um, work on issues of, you know, the cross reporting was part of that whole issue of family and domestic violence, but we're looking at doing, um, Identifying safe haven deserts in Ohio where there is domestic violence shelters, but there's no safe havens to take the animal to. And that is so critical because, um, both national statistics and state statistics show that the majority of women will not leave. An abusive situation unless they can get their animal out. So we need to have more safe havens, and indeed, there's a lot more grants out there, and we're gonna go out and market, um, and try to get people applying for those grants. Um, we protect wildlife. You know, part of the issue I mentioned to you about Bobcats. Um, you know, we, we'll fight there regarding the regulations that D N R is proposing and also on wildlife, uh, killing contests and other issues. Um, we address the cruelty and puppy mills. As we've discussed. We aid on community cats issues. We've been doing community cats summits, uh, for the last several years. We've done 'em virtually because of the pandemic and actually been able to include regional areas, states around Ohio and on this and just released this year a state of the state report that is the most comprehensive list in Ohio of all the spay neuter and T N R resources there are identifying where those deserts are and actually looking to help get funding for Mobile spay and neuter units to, um, actually get into these areas and help out the community cats and also pass ordinances in towns about protecting those cats. We also, um, want to assure there's adequate shelter for animals, um, that are out either in hot weather or cold. And indeed, um, we need to look at that because, um, back to the issue of low income, sometimes landlords, I mean, if there isn't an option to get an animal inside and people need a home, they may need to keep their animal outside. So we need to help them with options about how to create that adequate shelter. And then lastly, we wanna build. Compassionate communities through humane education, which includes alternatives to dissection in school, alternatives to animal testing and cosmetics. Um, and also, um, education at an elementary school level. Um, we've had a number of programs we have run with the librarians and school teachers because indeed it has been found that children between third grade and sixth grade, their minds are just more able to absorb the whole idea of compassion. And if you bring stories to them of com learning compassion for animals, you actually build. You might say an ability for that person to have compassion toward their family, toward their neighbors, toward their community. And so it really helps build a responsible citizen. And one of the things we did create last year was real Ohio tours. Um, that actually it was a time when a lot of people wanted to get out after, you know, the pandemic was ending and wanted to be somewhere, but it was still safer outside. And we wanted to get people out. To see what animal sanctuaries there are in Ohio that, you know, what are people doing in the trenches on the ground to help these animals, whether they be companion animals, wildlife, or farm animals. Um, it was a hit. A lot of people thoroughly enjoyed it. Were repeating it this year. We shared with you the brochure. If there's a way for you to get it to your podcast members, but we would say, please just go to OA a's website, Ohio Animal a advocates.org. And under Humane education, um, look for the real Ohio tours. Look for the brochures. We just did one, um, the middle of April to last Chance Corral in Athens. That is a wonderful sanctuary that takes in nursing foals. Now, what nursing folds is, are unfortunately a byproduct of the racing industry where, um, basically the, um, racehorse are bred, um, but they do not want the, the mares to nurse those foals. So instead they have regular horses have foals that they eventually move the racing horse foal to that mare, but then that nurse foal is discardable and 90% of them die. They're either sent to slaughter, they're left to die because they're not fed and they don't get to milk. It's a very sad situation, and so last Chance Corral is one of the rescues that takes some of the animals in, but most do not make it. Yeah, I did

not know about, I did not know about that whole issue until this came, you know, until this happened, this real Ohio tour. So it's. It's amazing not just being able to go, you know, everybody feels about, okay, I wanna go and I wanna pet the, you know, play with the, with the foals and everything else, but just the education that goes along with it. All of these sanctuaries have a reason for being right, not absolutely just not just being kind of a petting zoo of sorts. They are actually sanctuaries that are taken in these animals because of certain reason. So what are the other, uh, Ohio tours that are planned for the rest of

the year? Yes, and we, we invite everyone to come on them and, and please go on and register, and register early on the website because sometimes there is capacity limit when we go places on June 3rd, we're gonna be going to Homeless to Home C at Sanctuary in Marion, and they do a wonderful job of taking in a lot of cats that have nowhere else to go, um, on. June 24th, we're going to be going to Butternut Wildcat Sanctuary. And there's a man there. He got our, um, animal Sanctuary Award of the year last year for 40 plus years. He's been taken in, uh, Wildcats of all sorts, wolves and, you know, other animals that really wouldn't have a place to go And, um, You know, he, he's down to some bobcats and um, he knows he kind of needs to maybe. Uh, fade out from what he's doing. And we didn't want him to fade out without him being acknowledged for the wonderful work that he does. And it, it's just a wonderful place. And his stories are wonderful. On, uh, July 15th, we're going to Walking Wild, which, um, is a Fox sanctuary and it's actually the largest one in the United States. They have over 100 foxes there. They actually have some wolf dogs too. And I think they've taken in some coyotes last year. But indeed, they really do a great job in working with the industry to take what animals they will give up sometimes because the fur isn't what's wanted or for whatever reasons, but they're getting the animals that they can and trying to rehab them and really bringing attention to the issue. And in fact, we're gonna be working to see if we can convince the Columbus City Council to look at a band an an ordinance on banning for sales in the city of Columbus. And we'd like to take them out to walking wild to see what's really going on. Um, we also then, um, in August we're still looking to schedule, uh, a tour, but in September on the 15th, we're going to, uh, sunrise Farm Sanctuary in Marysville, which is one of the biggest in Ohio. And they have cows and they have draft horses, and they have. Pigs and they have goats and they have chickens, and they have ducks, and they have geese, and they have dogs, they have cats. So they all live together in peace. Um, so that says something that is, you know, we could learn from. And then in October we're going to Glen Helen's Raptor Center, down in Yellow Springs, on the 14th that they have a number of birds that they've taken in. They tried to rehab them when they can and, and let them go back out in the wild, but when they can't, they have a home. We just really encourage everyone to come. They're wonderful, wonderful trips.

We'll be sharing the information and the flyer on our website on forensics.vet, that's forensics dot v e t, and on our animal welfare Junction Facebook page. Um, and then also, how can people support Ohio Animal Advocates?

Thank you so much for asking. I mean, if you go to the o A A website, um, there's a donate button right on the homepage, but indeed, um, we are looking at the end of June of having our giving week. Um, actually, Columbus Foundation helped a number of central Ohio nonprofits like do this during the pandemic because funds were down and we've continued as well as a number of other organizations. And our board has actually put up a match of $4,000 for folks when they give, so you can really double your efforts and we will be advertising it on the website. And please go in and join. Um, and, and we'd love to have you as members. We'd love for you to be part of the backbone of this organization that helps support getting to the root causes of animal cruelty in Ohio.

And then for those people that may be listening later in the year, giving Tuesday is also going to be an opportunity to, to be raising funds and to be supporting the, the organization. So Ohio Animal advocates.org visit, share, like, uh, join, it's uh, what's the, what's the fee to be a member?

$25, but if you're a senior or a student, it's $10 and you can also, if you wanted to give in monthly donations, that's an opportunity too. But, you can also spread out your donation over time. Uh,

I'm hoping that people that have listened this, this episode have learned about the laws and how everything happens as far as animal welfare, where we're at, where we need to go, and I hope that some of it has maybe sparked something in, in individuals. So I really appreciate you taking the time to join us and go over this. So, in closing, what can the community do to support animal welfare? Uh, you know, what can they do to, to help improve things?

You can join OAA, but you can also go to the website and under action alerts, look for what we have. Um, there's template letters. There's an opportunity to basically reach out, find out who your legislator is, who your local councilperson is, and send information, advocate and be a voice for the voiceless. And also in addition, you know, join the real Ohio tours, find out what's going on, and you can also volunteer. We have many opportunities and many ways to make a difference and be part of our team. Fantastic.

So anybody listening, again, Ohio Animal Advocates, please take a look at it and share with your friends, because we all love animals and we're all into animal welfare. So thank you so much, Vicky, for being here today, and thank you, Dr. That you're. Thank you for everything that you're doing and hope to be doing more stuff with you as we go

forward. Absolutely. Thank you and have a good evening everyone.