1 00:00:00,375 --> 00:00:02,750 Welcome to the VP Life Podcast, the show 2 00:00:02,750 --> 00:00:04,166 where we bring you actionable health 3 00:00:04,166 --> 00:00:05,541 advice from leading minds. 4 00:00:06,500 --> 00:00:07,458 I'm your host, Rob. 5 00:00:08,125 --> 00:00:09,750 My guest today is Alex Manos, a 6 00:00:09,750 --> 00:00:11,125 functional medicine provider who 7 00:00:11,125 --> 00:00:12,875 specializes in working with individuals 8 00:00:12,875 --> 00:00:14,166 with chronic fatigue syndrome. 9 00:00:15,208 --> 00:00:17,583 Expect to learn the history of chronic 10 00:00:17,583 --> 00:00:19,833 fatigue syndrome, also known as malleGic 11 00:00:19,833 --> 00:00:22,000 and cephalomyelitis we can say that three 12 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:24,500 times for OST the triggers and root 13 00:00:24,500 --> 00:00:27,000 causes of chronic fatigue syndrome and 14 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:28,666 actionable steps you can start taking 15 00:00:28,666 --> 00:00:30,166 today to reclaim your life. 16 00:00:31,083 --> 00:00:31,791 Now, on to the 17 00:00:31,791 --> 00:00:33,458 conversation with Alex Manos. 18 00:00:34,041 --> 00:00:34,625 Good morning, Alex. 19 00:00:34,791 --> 00:00:36,500 It's great to have you join us today. 20 00:00:37,291 --> 00:00:38,708 It's going to be quite the episode, I 21 00:00:38,708 --> 00:00:41,583 think, and the timing for our discussion 22 00:00:41,583 --> 00:00:43,166 today is actually pretty ideal. 23 00:00:43,916 --> 00:00:46,083 As it wraps up the last few podcasts I've 24 00:00:46,083 --> 00:00:48,333 done on mitochondrial dysfunction, 25 00:00:49,125 --> 00:00:51,125 cellular metabolism, NCAS, 26 00:00:51,375 --> 00:00:52,708 environmental toxins, etc. 27 00:00:56,500 --> 00:00:57,916 Anyway, you're at the start of our 28 00:00:57,916 --> 00:01:00,375 conversation today, but before we sort of 29 00:01:00,375 --> 00:01:03,875 dive into CFS and how individuals should 30 00:01:03,875 --> 00:01:07,000 start thinking about the condition and 31 00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:08,708 how they can manage it themselves, would 32 00:01:08,708 --> 00:01:11,458 you mind just introducing yourself and 33 00:01:11,458 --> 00:01:13,000 how you ended up in this sort of 34 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:15,208 functional nutrition space? 35 00:01:16,041 --> 00:01:16,916 Yeah, well, thank you 36 00:01:16,916 --> 00:01:17,875 for having me on, Robert. 37 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:19,583 It's been taking us a 38 00:01:19,583 --> 00:01:20,416 while, but we're here. 39 00:01:22,291 --> 00:01:24,791 So yeah, I guess my story, keeping it 40 00:01:24,791 --> 00:01:29,541 short, is I had a long history of IBS, 41 00:01:29,541 --> 00:01:31,916 ultimately, as a child and teenage. 42 00:01:32,125 --> 00:01:33,291 I eventually got diagnosed 43 00:01:33,291 --> 00:01:35,375 when I was 18 from the GP. 44 00:01:35,833 --> 00:01:38,458 And as anyone who's been diagnosed knows, 45 00:01:38,458 --> 00:01:40,541 I got given some peppermint oil capsules 46 00:01:40,541 --> 00:01:41,958 and was told that I'm just going to have 47 00:01:41,958 --> 00:01:43,083 to figure out a way to 48 00:01:43,083 --> 00:01:44,458 manage it ultimately. 49 00:01:46,333 --> 00:01:48,125 And it really did peak when I was 18. 50 00:01:48,458 --> 00:01:49,875 So in regards to the severity, 51 00:01:51,166 --> 00:01:53,125 there were times when I was in a fetal 52 00:01:53,125 --> 00:01:54,916 position holding my stomach just with 53 00:01:54,916 --> 00:01:56,166 crippling abdominal pain. 54 00:01:56,833 --> 00:01:59,000 And I had some of the common symptoms 55 00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:00,083 that will come with it. 56 00:02:00,250 --> 00:02:02,125 I was napping for up to 57 00:02:02,125 --> 00:02:03,958 two hours in the afternoon. 58 00:02:03,958 --> 00:02:05,625 I was at boarding school, so everyone 59 00:02:05,625 --> 00:02:06,875 else was out playing sports. 60 00:02:06,875 --> 00:02:09,000 And I was kind of just in my beds, 61 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:10,166 hunking down, trying to 62 00:02:10,166 --> 00:02:11,166 get through to dinner. 63 00:02:12,416 --> 00:02:13,291 Brain fog, I had 64 00:02:13,291 --> 00:02:14,916 terrible skin growing up. 65 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:15,750 So there was a lot of 66 00:02:15,750 --> 00:02:17,458 other things kind of at play. 67 00:02:17,458 --> 00:02:19,291 But I think the root of many of those 68 00:02:19,291 --> 00:02:21,791 were the fact that I had quite 69 00:02:21,791 --> 00:02:23,208 significant digestive 70 00:02:23,291 --> 00:02:24,500 imbalances, ultimately. 71 00:02:25,916 --> 00:02:29,166 So the gut issues and the inflammation 72 00:02:29,166 --> 00:02:31,333 from that also meant that I had a lot of 73 00:02:31,333 --> 00:02:33,125 musculoskeletal issues as a teenager. 74 00:02:33,833 --> 00:02:36,291 So from 15, 16 onwards, I was just 75 00:02:36,291 --> 00:02:38,083 getting injury after injury. 76 00:02:38,541 --> 00:02:40,833 So I see a lot of physiotherapists, 77 00:02:40,833 --> 00:02:42,583 osteopaths, massage therapists. 78 00:02:42,916 --> 00:02:45,000 And I think that a mixture of just my gut 79 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:47,125 issues and seeing these professionals 80 00:02:47,125 --> 00:02:49,166 meant that I just started to get a real 81 00:02:49,166 --> 00:02:50,916 interest in the human body. 82 00:02:52,708 --> 00:02:54,208 And then fast forward to after 83 00:02:54,208 --> 00:02:55,500 university, I read a 84 00:02:55,500 --> 00:02:56,750 book by Patrick Holford. 85 00:02:57,833 --> 00:02:59,750 Well, most of his books, but I read his 86 00:02:59,750 --> 00:03:03,625 gut's book, did it to the letter, did it 87 00:03:03,625 --> 00:03:05,875 alongside some gut focused hypnotherapy. 88 00:03:06,708 --> 00:03:09,208 And within two weeks, every single 89 00:03:09,208 --> 00:03:10,625 symptom that I was suffering with 90 00:03:10,625 --> 00:03:11,541 completely disappeared. 91 00:03:12,375 --> 00:03:14,041 And it just blew my mind. 92 00:03:14,041 --> 00:03:15,875 And not just sort of digestive symptoms. 93 00:03:16,375 --> 00:03:18,291 I would put my head down on the pillow, 94 00:03:18,958 --> 00:03:19,791 fall asleep, and I would 95 00:03:19,791 --> 00:03:21,625 wake up eight hours later. 96 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:23,166 I'm not sure I'd ever done 97 00:03:23,166 --> 00:03:24,708 that in my life before then. 98 00:03:26,083 --> 00:03:27,500 Backaches from a rugby 99 00:03:27,500 --> 00:03:29,250 tackle completely disappeared. 100 00:03:29,500 --> 00:03:31,166 So there was like a total reset. 101 00:03:32,791 --> 00:03:35,083 And from then on, I guess I haven't 102 00:03:35,083 --> 00:03:35,916 really looked back in 103 00:03:35,916 --> 00:03:38,333 trying to learn more about it. 104 00:03:38,333 --> 00:03:40,166 So I went and studied at the 105 00:03:40,166 --> 00:03:41,500 Institute of Optimum Nutrition. 106 00:03:41,833 --> 00:03:43,458 I went then and got my master's in 107 00:03:43,458 --> 00:03:44,541 personalized nutrition. 108 00:03:45,666 --> 00:03:47,083 I studied with the Institute for 109 00:03:47,083 --> 00:03:47,791 Functional Medicine. 110 00:03:48,791 --> 00:03:50,250 And I've kind of branched 111 00:03:50,250 --> 00:03:51,541 out a little bit since then. 112 00:03:51,541 --> 00:03:52,958 So I've done a diploma in 113 00:03:52,958 --> 00:03:54,291 transformational life coaching. 114 00:03:54,666 --> 00:03:56,375 I've trained in transformational breath. 115 00:03:57,083 --> 00:03:59,250 And I was in the first cohort of the 116 00:03:59,250 --> 00:04:01,041 Synthesis Institute Psychedelic 117 00:04:01,041 --> 00:04:02,916 Practitioner Training Program as well. 118 00:04:03,750 --> 00:04:05,750 So I've kind of tried to add a few more 119 00:04:05,750 --> 00:04:08,708 strings to my bow to help people because 120 00:04:08,708 --> 00:04:09,916 especially with these sorts of 121 00:04:09,916 --> 00:04:10,750 conditions, they're 122 00:04:10,750 --> 00:04:12,500 complex, they're multifactorial. 123 00:04:13,166 --> 00:04:17,625 And I think the more therapies, for want 124 00:04:17,625 --> 00:04:20,416 of a better word, that you can apply, the 125 00:04:20,666 --> 00:04:21,666 better our chances of 126 00:04:21,666 --> 00:04:22,666 success are ultimately. 127 00:04:24,041 --> 00:04:26,750 Yeah, no, that's quite the story. 128 00:04:26,750 --> 00:04:29,625 And I know you also are involved in a 129 00:04:29,625 --> 00:04:31,000 company called HealthPath, I believe. 130 00:04:31,500 --> 00:04:31,833 Yes. 131 00:04:31,833 --> 00:04:34,000 Can you tell us a little more about that? 132 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:34,333 Excuse me. 133 00:04:34,666 --> 00:04:34,875 Yeah. 134 00:04:36,125 --> 00:04:37,708 One of the co-founders of HealthPath and 135 00:04:37,708 --> 00:04:39,291 HealthPath Pro, and HealthPath is 136 00:04:39,291 --> 00:04:43,541 ultimately a platform whereby the public 137 00:04:43,541 --> 00:04:45,541 can get access to some of these sort of 138 00:04:45,541 --> 00:04:47,166 functional advanced tests. 139 00:04:47,500 --> 00:04:49,500 So we have a gut microbiome test. 140 00:04:49,500 --> 00:04:51,333 We have a SIBO breath test. 141 00:04:52,250 --> 00:04:54,625 We did have a slide record still test. 142 00:04:54,625 --> 00:04:56,250 The lab just stopped running that one. 143 00:04:56,625 --> 00:04:57,541 And we have some food 144 00:04:57,541 --> 00:04:59,166 sensitivity testing as well. 145 00:04:59,916 --> 00:05:02,291 And then essentially, our customers will 146 00:05:02,291 --> 00:05:04,333 complete a couple of symptom surveys. 147 00:05:05,333 --> 00:05:06,791 One of them sort of more closed-ended 148 00:05:06,791 --> 00:05:08,166 questions, one of them sort of more 149 00:05:08,166 --> 00:05:09,291 open-ended questions. 150 00:05:09,291 --> 00:05:11,000 So we get the context of what's going on 151 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:11,833 with their health, why 152 00:05:11,833 --> 00:05:12,708 they've done the test. 153 00:05:13,166 --> 00:05:14,791 And I've got a team of nutritional 154 00:05:14,791 --> 00:05:16,250 therapists that are looking at those 155 00:05:16,250 --> 00:05:18,083 symptom profiles, looking at the test 156 00:05:18,083 --> 00:05:20,208 results, and then creating some health 157 00:05:20,208 --> 00:05:21,625 plans on the back of kind of that 158 00:05:22,208 --> 00:05:23,833 subjective and objective data. 159 00:05:24,458 --> 00:05:27,041 So we get a lot of people with IBS, IBD, 160 00:05:27,625 --> 00:05:29,833 autoimmune conditions, fibromyalgia, 161 00:05:29,833 --> 00:05:32,041 chronic fatigue syndrome, and also just 162 00:05:32,041 --> 00:05:33,500 people interested in sort of their 163 00:05:33,500 --> 00:05:36,083 microbiome, ultimately, doing the testing 164 00:05:36,083 --> 00:05:40,000 to see how much is the gut and the gut 165 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:42,541 microbiome potentially contributing to 166 00:05:42,541 --> 00:05:43,750 what's going on for them. 167 00:05:44,625 --> 00:05:46,500 So yeah, that's kind of the high level. 168 00:05:46,500 --> 00:05:48,333 Now, the CEO is 169 00:05:48,333 --> 00:05:50,000 actually an old client of mine. 170 00:05:51,125 --> 00:05:52,041 So it's a little bit 171 00:05:52,041 --> 00:05:54,083 like Al from XL Coffee. 172 00:05:54,333 --> 00:05:56,000 He was an old client of mine. 173 00:05:56,125 --> 00:05:57,916 He's the people that got really 174 00:05:57,916 --> 00:06:00,333 passionate about health, ultimately, and 175 00:06:00,333 --> 00:06:01,750 helping others achieve health. 176 00:06:02,083 --> 00:06:05,541 And so Richard Naimi is sort of the true 177 00:06:05,541 --> 00:06:08,416 founder of HealthPath, ultimately, who 178 00:06:08,416 --> 00:06:10,583 had a lot of health issues and functional 179 00:06:10,583 --> 00:06:12,416 medicine really helped him and get his 180 00:06:12,416 --> 00:06:14,916 life back on track, ultimately, and 181 00:06:14,916 --> 00:06:16,583 wanted to kind of pass that forward. 182 00:06:17,583 --> 00:06:19,291 Yeah, no, I think it's an amazing 183 00:06:19,291 --> 00:06:20,291 platform you've built. 184 00:06:20,291 --> 00:06:21,958 And something that's definitely going to 185 00:06:21,958 --> 00:06:23,708 be useful for anyone listening today is 186 00:06:23,708 --> 00:06:26,666 they sort of, as we talk about this 187 00:06:26,666 --> 00:06:29,041 concept of CFS and how people can start 188 00:06:29,041 --> 00:06:31,125 working through it to an extent 189 00:06:31,125 --> 00:06:33,958 themselves, but then having something 190 00:06:33,958 --> 00:06:36,125 like that platform like that on the back 191 00:06:36,125 --> 00:06:38,666 end of that way, they maybe don't 192 00:06:38,666 --> 00:06:42,583 necessarily want to or can afford to see 193 00:06:42,583 --> 00:06:46,125 a GP or a functional therapist who 194 00:06:46,125 --> 00:06:47,958 charges four to 600 pounds an hour. 195 00:06:48,833 --> 00:06:50,625 I think that's an incredible service. 196 00:06:50,666 --> 00:06:53,791 And just is, yeah, it really does fill a 197 00:06:53,791 --> 00:06:55,208 much needed gap in the market. 198 00:06:56,875 --> 00:06:58,541 Yeah, I know, Al's an interesting one. 199 00:06:58,541 --> 00:06:59,208 I'm still trying to 200 00:06:59,208 --> 00:07:00,625 get him onto the podcast. 201 00:07:00,916 --> 00:07:02,916 And I was quite distraught to see the 202 00:07:02,916 --> 00:07:03,625 other day that they're 203 00:07:03,625 --> 00:07:04,750 about to run out of coffee. 204 00:07:04,750 --> 00:07:09,083 So I've got to, I made a very quick order 205 00:07:09,083 --> 00:07:12,875 while there was still some there. 206 00:07:13,708 --> 00:07:14,083 But anyway, 207 00:07:16,333 --> 00:07:18,083 all right, CFS, I suppose we 208 00:07:18,083 --> 00:07:19,375 might as well jump into it. 209 00:07:20,958 --> 00:07:23,125 This isn't a question, ironically, not 210 00:07:23,125 --> 00:07:23,666 that I've actually 211 00:07:23,666 --> 00:07:24,875 asked in the podcast before. 212 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:28,750 But how would you define CFS, sort of 213 00:07:28,750 --> 00:07:30,875 this this concept of milder, 214 00:07:30,875 --> 00:07:34,000 conservative, milder as it's also known? 215 00:07:35,666 --> 00:07:37,375 Yes, from a clinician's perspective, 216 00:07:37,833 --> 00:07:38,916 obviously, there's some interesting 217 00:07:38,916 --> 00:07:40,000 history there, if 218 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:40,833 you're familiar with that. 219 00:07:41,666 --> 00:07:43,666 But yeah, yeah, it's interesting, I think 220 00:07:43,666 --> 00:07:46,625 that there are different definitions by 221 00:07:46,625 --> 00:07:48,583 different organizations, which doesn't 222 00:07:48,583 --> 00:07:50,708 help the process in some ways. 223 00:07:51,541 --> 00:07:53,583 But I guess, you know, the textbook 224 00:07:53,583 --> 00:07:55,375 features are going to be someone that is 225 00:07:55,375 --> 00:07:58,750 experiencing debilitating fatigue for a 226 00:07:58,750 --> 00:08:01,041 period of six months or more, that isn't 227 00:08:01,041 --> 00:08:03,333 improved by sleep, and that is 228 00:08:03,333 --> 00:08:06,000 exacerbated by physical exertion. 229 00:08:07,166 --> 00:08:08,791 And some of those organizations will 230 00:08:08,791 --> 00:08:10,375 incorporate additional symptoms. 231 00:08:10,666 --> 00:08:12,416 I think there's an American organization 232 00:08:12,416 --> 00:08:15,125 that talks about either brain fog, 233 00:08:16,916 --> 00:08:18,791 or, oh, I forget now, but one other 234 00:08:18,791 --> 00:08:22,250 symptom, one of those has to be included 235 00:08:22,250 --> 00:08:24,500 within the criteria to receive the 236 00:08:24,500 --> 00:08:26,250 diagnosis, which seems a 237 00:08:26,250 --> 00:08:27,750 little bit odd, ultimately. 238 00:08:28,958 --> 00:08:30,916 But yes, I think, you know, six months or 239 00:08:30,916 --> 00:08:33,333 longer of debilitating fatigue that's 240 00:08:33,333 --> 00:08:35,916 impacting day to day quality of life, 241 00:08:36,500 --> 00:08:40,208 that isn't improved by rest or sleep, and 242 00:08:40,208 --> 00:08:42,875 that is exacerbated by physical exertion, 243 00:08:43,458 --> 00:08:46,958 a kind of, I guess, the markers in there 244 00:08:46,958 --> 00:08:49,166 in the consensus amongst all of these 245 00:08:49,166 --> 00:08:50,250 different organizations. 246 00:08:51,500 --> 00:08:53,041 Yeah, that's a fairly sort 247 00:08:53,041 --> 00:08:54,208 of simple way of advocating. 248 00:08:54,500 --> 00:08:55,291 And I think we're 249 00:08:55,291 --> 00:08:56,250 definitely aligned there. 250 00:08:57,916 --> 00:08:59,708 I think I mentioned this to Gillian 251 00:08:59,708 --> 00:09:01,833 Crowther last week, when we were talking 252 00:09:01,833 --> 00:09:04,000 about the cell danger response, which I 253 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:05,708 know we'll touch on a little later. 254 00:09:06,750 --> 00:09:11,333 But I think the one silver lining, maybe 255 00:09:11,333 --> 00:09:14,041 you could call it, of the pandemic and 256 00:09:14,041 --> 00:09:17,083 long COVID is that I brought this idea of 257 00:09:17,083 --> 00:09:21,125 sort of recalcitrant, recalcitrant, or 258 00:09:21,125 --> 00:09:23,583 persistent viral fatigue into the 259 00:09:23,583 --> 00:09:26,416 spotlight, which I think is a good thing 260 00:09:26,416 --> 00:09:29,916 as, yeah, well, it is. 261 00:09:30,541 --> 00:09:32,375 And while sadly, I don't think we're much 262 00:09:32,375 --> 00:09:34,750 closer to really a sort of a one pill 263 00:09:34,750 --> 00:09:37,041 solution, I do think at least from a 264 00:09:37,041 --> 00:09:39,500 social standpoint that it's broken down 265 00:09:39,500 --> 00:09:41,458 some of the stigma around 266 00:09:41,458 --> 00:09:42,750 the condition maybe because, 267 00:09:43,791 --> 00:09:45,750 well, and I think that's a win for a lot 268 00:09:45,750 --> 00:09:48,041 of people because they don't, you know, 269 00:09:48,041 --> 00:09:49,000 when you sort of are going 270 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:49,958 through these conditions, 271 00:09:51,208 --> 00:09:53,666 well, as you know, you often get sort of 272 00:09:53,666 --> 00:09:56,666 told that it's just in your head and it's 273 00:09:56,666 --> 00:09:58,000 just, it's not real. 274 00:09:59,250 --> 00:10:01,750 I think there's definitely some roots 275 00:10:01,750 --> 00:10:04,125 there going back to Gulf War Syndrome, 276 00:10:04,375 --> 00:10:07,250 which I think just looking into the 277 00:10:07,250 --> 00:10:09,625 history of the condition is quite 278 00:10:09,625 --> 00:10:11,500 interesting because everything you've 279 00:10:11,500 --> 00:10:14,291 just mentioned is what soldiers from that 280 00:10:14,291 --> 00:10:16,458 era came back with, with these mystery 281 00:10:16,458 --> 00:10:17,875 illnesses of extreme 282 00:10:17,875 --> 00:10:19,416 fatigue, aching joints. 283 00:10:20,291 --> 00:10:24,083 And yeah, I think it's just sort of 284 00:10:24,083 --> 00:10:27,875 building on that and it's providing just 285 00:10:27,875 --> 00:10:30,666 more awareness of the fact that this is a 286 00:10:30,666 --> 00:10:32,916 real condition and it's not just this 287 00:10:32,916 --> 00:10:34,375 sort of psychosomatic 288 00:10:35,500 --> 00:10:37,625 state that people just happen to fall 289 00:10:37,625 --> 00:10:39,500 into and then never get out of. 290 00:10:41,250 --> 00:10:42,166 But yeah, that's my 291 00:10:42,166 --> 00:10:43,333 tangent for the day done. 292 00:10:43,500 --> 00:10:46,125 I'll try and keep it at least somewhat on 293 00:10:46,125 --> 00:10:48,166 track going forwards. 294 00:10:48,833 --> 00:10:49,708 No, no, I agree. 295 00:10:49,916 --> 00:10:50,916 And I think, you know, some of the 296 00:10:50,916 --> 00:10:53,375 comments that people can receive with 297 00:10:53,375 --> 00:10:56,416 chronic fatigue syndrome just perpetuate 298 00:10:56,416 --> 00:10:57,666 the whole situation. 299 00:10:58,000 --> 00:10:59,416 You know, oh, you look fine, you look 300 00:10:59,416 --> 00:11:00,250 healthy, what's wrong 301 00:11:00,250 --> 00:11:01,041 with you kind of thing. 302 00:11:01,041 --> 00:11:03,250 Like it's it's sort of a silent disease 303 00:11:03,250 --> 00:11:04,958 in that way that people can look 304 00:11:04,958 --> 00:11:07,875 perfectly well and yet be bed bound 305 00:11:07,875 --> 00:11:10,083 because of the severity of their fatigue 306 00:11:10,083 --> 00:11:12,166 and other symptoms they're experiencing. 307 00:11:12,583 --> 00:11:14,500 So it is incredibly challenging. 308 00:11:14,750 --> 00:11:17,333 And I think, you know, it's it's made 309 00:11:17,333 --> 00:11:20,000 worse with those sorts of belief systems 310 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:21,541 or comments that we can receive. 311 00:11:22,875 --> 00:11:24,083 So, yes, I would agree with 312 00:11:24,083 --> 00:11:24,833 you on all of that, Robert. 313 00:11:25,916 --> 00:11:28,291 Yeah, no, I think it just at the end of 314 00:11:28,291 --> 00:11:31,041 the day, having someone who's just 315 00:11:31,041 --> 00:11:34,041 willing to acknowledge that you have an 316 00:11:34,041 --> 00:11:35,625 actual issue will move the 317 00:11:35,625 --> 00:11:37,333 needle as much as anything else. 318 00:11:37,666 --> 00:11:37,875 Yeah. 319 00:11:38,333 --> 00:11:38,541 Yeah. 320 00:11:39,166 --> 00:11:41,958 Anyway, so sort of to dig into it. 321 00:11:42,375 --> 00:11:44,500 I have a few ideas and of course, I 322 00:11:44,500 --> 00:11:46,916 suppose this speaks to my framework and 323 00:11:46,916 --> 00:11:48,000 understanding of the condition. 324 00:11:48,791 --> 00:11:50,416 But I reckon if we start talking about 325 00:11:50,416 --> 00:11:53,833 the potential triggers of CFS and then 326 00:11:53,833 --> 00:11:56,000 start to look downstream at the sort of 327 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:58,250 more immunological cellular and then sort 328 00:11:58,250 --> 00:12:00,958 of the hormonal endocrine systems that 329 00:12:00,958 --> 00:12:01,958 are affected, that that 330 00:12:01,958 --> 00:12:04,291 should cover most of it. 331 00:12:04,291 --> 00:12:06,833 Of course, we'll cover the gut in there, 332 00:12:06,833 --> 00:12:08,875 too, which at least from a functional 333 00:12:08,875 --> 00:12:11,083 medicine standpoint is really the 334 00:12:11,083 --> 00:12:13,041 starting point for a lot of this. 335 00:12:13,666 --> 00:12:15,250 From there, I think it would be pretty 336 00:12:15,250 --> 00:12:17,875 cool if we put together a basic framework 337 00:12:17,875 --> 00:12:19,833 of sorts that the listener can then 338 00:12:19,833 --> 00:12:22,458 utilize at least as a starting point if 339 00:12:22,458 --> 00:12:23,541 they're trying to troubleshoot these 340 00:12:23,541 --> 00:12:26,458 issues themselves and at which point if 341 00:12:26,458 --> 00:12:28,083 they do struggle, obviously reaching out 342 00:12:28,083 --> 00:12:31,958 to HealthPath or a company like that, I 343 00:12:31,958 --> 00:12:35,250 think is a great option. 344 00:12:36,958 --> 00:12:38,083 Yeah, does that sound fair enough? 345 00:12:38,291 --> 00:12:39,666 Have I missed anything there? 346 00:12:39,666 --> 00:12:40,833 Would you sort of agree with that? 347 00:12:41,083 --> 00:12:43,041 Yeah, I think exploring all of that is 348 00:12:43,041 --> 00:12:44,500 going to be really helpful and there are 349 00:12:44,500 --> 00:12:46,916 different lenses that we can 350 00:12:46,916 --> 00:12:48,458 take to look at that as well. 351 00:12:48,958 --> 00:12:49,708 So I think there's some really 352 00:12:49,708 --> 00:12:51,083 interesting concepts that we 353 00:12:51,083 --> 00:12:52,416 can kind of cover within that. 354 00:12:53,083 --> 00:12:53,708 Yeah, awesome. 355 00:12:54,125 --> 00:12:55,750 OK, let's dive into the triggers. 356 00:12:57,041 --> 00:12:59,333 Now, of course, before I get into my list 357 00:12:59,333 --> 00:13:01,583 of which I have a few and I'd like to 358 00:13:01,583 --> 00:13:04,375 discuss those with you, I'd like to sort 359 00:13:04,375 --> 00:13:06,583 of get your perspective. 360 00:13:06,916 --> 00:13:09,833 As the audience knows, my background is 361 00:13:09,833 --> 00:13:13,041 in Biochem and working through some of 362 00:13:13,041 --> 00:13:15,291 these issues myself and have helped a few 363 00:13:15,291 --> 00:13:17,666 customers through work. 364 00:13:17,875 --> 00:13:19,958 But most of what I do is 365 00:13:19,958 --> 00:13:21,458 definitely theory-based. 366 00:13:21,458 --> 00:13:25,583 I don't have that level of clinical or 367 00:13:25,583 --> 00:13:27,666 practical experience that you necessarily 368 00:13:27,666 --> 00:13:30,000 do or that you do have. 369 00:13:30,458 --> 00:13:33,791 So what do you generally see as being the 370 00:13:33,791 --> 00:13:37,166 most sort of obvious triggers, mold, etc? 371 00:13:38,458 --> 00:13:41,875 Yeah, so I'm going to potentially 372 00:13:41,875 --> 00:13:44,541 contradict myself here, but I'm going to 373 00:13:44,541 --> 00:13:45,791 try and explain why I'm 374 00:13:45,791 --> 00:13:46,791 going to contradict myself. 375 00:13:47,500 --> 00:13:50,125 So if we think about potential triggers 376 00:13:50,125 --> 00:13:52,375 of CFSME, you know, we're going to be 377 00:13:52,375 --> 00:13:53,791 thinking about microbial. 378 00:13:54,500 --> 00:13:57,000 So this could be bacterial, viral, 379 00:13:57,500 --> 00:13:58,833 parasitic or fungal. 380 00:13:59,958 --> 00:14:01,083 We could be thinking 381 00:14:01,083 --> 00:14:03,333 about things like trauma. 382 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:04,875 That will certainly be 383 00:14:04,875 --> 00:14:06,041 a contributory factor. 384 00:14:06,500 --> 00:14:07,083 We can be thinking 385 00:14:07,083 --> 00:14:08,833 about environmental toxins. 386 00:14:09,416 --> 00:14:11,750 So mold and mycotoxins, I do think is 387 00:14:11,750 --> 00:14:14,500 quite a common contributory factor. 388 00:14:15,083 --> 00:14:17,625 And I try and use that term contributory 389 00:14:17,625 --> 00:14:20,083 factor because I think 390 00:14:20,083 --> 00:14:22,125 that it's rarely one thing. 391 00:14:22,416 --> 00:14:23,500 And I'm going to expand on 392 00:14:23,500 --> 00:14:24,833 that in a second as well. 393 00:14:25,500 --> 00:14:26,916 But we've also got, you know, potentially 394 00:14:26,916 --> 00:14:29,416 heavy metals like mercury, toxicity, 395 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:31,958 lead, cadmium that can be 396 00:14:31,958 --> 00:14:33,416 contributing here as well. 397 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:38,166 We have obviously there is the gut 398 00:14:38,166 --> 00:14:40,666 component, whether that could be related 399 00:14:40,666 --> 00:14:42,666 to the microbial part or whether that's 400 00:14:42,666 --> 00:14:44,708 related to just intestinal permeability 401 00:14:44,708 --> 00:14:46,708 for whatever reason, that intestinal 402 00:14:46,708 --> 00:14:48,125 permeability is there. 403 00:14:48,541 --> 00:14:49,791 Intestinal permeability 404 00:14:49,791 --> 00:14:51,125 being this idea of leaky gut. 405 00:14:51,291 --> 00:14:52,333 AKA leaky gut. 406 00:14:52,541 --> 00:14:53,333 Yes, thank you. 407 00:14:54,875 --> 00:14:57,208 And then also we can think and again, 408 00:14:57,208 --> 00:14:58,416 this could blend with the 409 00:14:58,416 --> 00:15:00,083 microbial, but oral health. 410 00:15:00,708 --> 00:15:01,708 This is kind of one of the 411 00:15:01,708 --> 00:15:03,416 new frontiers in the research. 412 00:15:03,666 --> 00:15:05,000 Ultimately, what we're understanding 413 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:06,958 about the oral microbiome and our oral 414 00:15:06,958 --> 00:15:08,166 health and how this impacts 415 00:15:08,166 --> 00:15:09,916 on systemic health as well. 416 00:15:12,375 --> 00:15:13,708 And then there can be again, as a 417 00:15:13,708 --> 00:15:15,291 contributory factor, I don't think it 418 00:15:15,291 --> 00:15:16,541 would ever probably really be 419 00:15:16,541 --> 00:15:18,083 considered a trigger as such. 420 00:15:18,083 --> 00:15:20,625 But food, you know, food allergies, food 421 00:15:20,625 --> 00:15:22,875 sensitivities, food intolerances could 422 00:15:22,875 --> 00:15:26,166 potentially be contributing to a reduced 423 00:15:26,166 --> 00:15:28,083 ability of the cell to produce energy, 424 00:15:28,083 --> 00:15:28,791 which is fundamentally 425 00:15:29,041 --> 00:15:30,291 what we're talking about here. 426 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:32,791 Now, there are two things I want to add 427 00:15:32,791 --> 00:15:37,000 to this, which is if the cell has reduced 428 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:40,000 capacity to produce energy, then none of 429 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:41,333 these things really work anyway. 430 00:15:42,166 --> 00:15:43,333 So you've got suddenly this 431 00:15:43,333 --> 00:15:45,791 bi-directional relationship whereby we 432 00:15:45,791 --> 00:15:48,625 understand the importance of 433 00:15:48,625 --> 00:15:50,208 mitochondrial health and energy 434 00:15:50,208 --> 00:15:53,458 production in maintaining an intact gut 435 00:15:53,458 --> 00:15:54,666 lining and in 436 00:15:54,666 --> 00:15:56,791 maintaining a healthy microbiome. 437 00:15:57,833 --> 00:15:58,250 And therefore, 438 00:15:58,250 --> 00:16:00,958 actually, which even came first? 439 00:16:01,333 --> 00:16:04,125 Was it a reduction in capacity to produce 440 00:16:04,125 --> 00:16:06,000 energy that led to dysbiosis or 441 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:07,333 imbalances within the gut 442 00:16:07,333 --> 00:16:09,083 microbiome and leaky guts? 443 00:16:09,541 --> 00:16:10,958 Or was it the imbalances in the gut 444 00:16:10,958 --> 00:16:12,541 microbiome and leaky gut for whatever 445 00:16:12,541 --> 00:16:14,708 reason that may be that then led to 446 00:16:14,708 --> 00:16:16,500 reduced capacity of the 447 00:16:16,500 --> 00:16:17,916 cell to produce energy? 448 00:16:18,458 --> 00:16:20,416 So it's really important, I think, to 449 00:16:20,416 --> 00:16:21,958 take that sort of functional medicine 450 00:16:21,958 --> 00:16:24,625 systems biology approach where 451 00:16:24,625 --> 00:16:26,208 understanding that most of these things 452 00:16:26,208 --> 00:16:27,291 we're talking about are all 453 00:16:27,291 --> 00:16:28,791 bi-directional relationships. 454 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:32,791 And while that can sounds a little bit 455 00:16:32,791 --> 00:16:35,208 daunting and confusing and like, oh, 456 00:16:35,208 --> 00:16:36,583 great, what do I do with that then? 457 00:16:36,791 --> 00:16:38,500 I think it can also be quite empowering 458 00:16:38,500 --> 00:16:40,625 because it means that we can take this 459 00:16:40,625 --> 00:16:42,666 sort of multi-pronged approach to 460 00:16:42,666 --> 00:16:45,875 supporting the bodily systems, knowing 461 00:16:45,875 --> 00:16:47,916 that we're having actually multiple 462 00:16:47,916 --> 00:16:50,458 benefits and impacts at the same time. 463 00:16:51,500 --> 00:16:52,750 And just the other thing, because I said 464 00:16:52,750 --> 00:16:54,125 there were two things I wanted to touch 465 00:16:54,125 --> 00:16:56,416 on, was the concept of allostatic load, 466 00:16:57,083 --> 00:16:59,041 you know, the accumulative wear and tear 467 00:16:59,041 --> 00:17:03,375 on the cell from just life, you know, and 468 00:17:03,375 --> 00:17:05,666 our exposome, which is basically our 469 00:17:05,666 --> 00:17:08,083 entire life experience and exposures, 470 00:17:08,083 --> 00:17:09,416 everything we've breathed, everything 471 00:17:09,416 --> 00:17:10,250 we've thought, 472 00:17:10,250 --> 00:17:11,458 everything we've eaten, etc. 473 00:17:12,500 --> 00:17:14,958 So what we know in the research and what 474 00:17:14,958 --> 00:17:16,708 gets discussed a lot is, you know, we 475 00:17:16,708 --> 00:17:19,916 basically are going to be experiencing a 476 00:17:19,916 --> 00:17:20,958 cumulative wear and 477 00:17:20,958 --> 00:17:22,333 tear at a cellular level. 478 00:17:22,875 --> 00:17:26,208 And we may hit a threshold whereby we 479 00:17:26,208 --> 00:17:28,541 don't have the psycho-emotional 480 00:17:28,541 --> 00:17:31,500 physiological resources to maintain 481 00:17:31,500 --> 00:17:33,000 homeostasis, to maintain 482 00:17:33,000 --> 00:17:35,125 equilibrium, to maintain health. 483 00:17:35,125 --> 00:17:37,125 And there is going to be a collapse in 484 00:17:37,125 --> 00:17:39,291 our health, in our physiology, in those 485 00:17:39,291 --> 00:17:43,000 interconnected bodily systems that is 486 00:17:43,000 --> 00:17:45,750 going to manifest for some maybe as CFS 487 00:17:45,750 --> 00:17:47,000 ME, but for others maybe 488 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:48,833 as an autoimmune condition. 489 00:17:48,833 --> 00:17:49,875 And obviously there's been a discussion 490 00:17:49,875 --> 00:17:51,500 anyway around the 491 00:17:51,500 --> 00:17:53,000 interconnection there as well. 492 00:17:53,875 --> 00:17:57,291 So it is very complex, I think. 493 00:17:57,291 --> 00:17:59,000 And I'm really, as I think a lot of 494 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:01,250 people are moving away from this idea of 495 00:18:01,250 --> 00:18:05,541 trying to find the root cause, because 496 00:18:05,541 --> 00:18:07,666 what I think might look like the root 497 00:18:07,666 --> 00:18:10,083 cause when you map out someone's timeline 498 00:18:10,083 --> 00:18:11,708 is really just the final 499 00:18:11,708 --> 00:18:13,125 straw that broke the camel's back. 500 00:18:13,125 --> 00:18:14,416 You've got everything that happened 501 00:18:14,416 --> 00:18:16,833 before that, which is why that trigger 502 00:18:16,833 --> 00:18:19,375 was the trigger in the first place. 503 00:18:20,416 --> 00:18:22,958 So I think this is where sometimes we've 504 00:18:22,958 --> 00:18:25,000 got it wrong, whereby someone, let's just 505 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:26,750 say, gets glandular fever. 506 00:18:27,083 --> 00:18:28,875 So we think about the Epstein-Barr virus 507 00:18:28,875 --> 00:18:31,500 and we go, "Oh, EBV was your trigger, and 508 00:18:31,500 --> 00:18:33,666 therefore we just need like an antiviral 509 00:18:33,666 --> 00:18:35,958 protocol or a viral protocol, 510 00:18:35,958 --> 00:18:37,250 and you'll be back on track." 511 00:18:37,875 --> 00:18:39,875 When actually the only reason why the 512 00:18:39,875 --> 00:18:42,166 virus became problematic was because 513 00:18:42,166 --> 00:18:45,875 often, in my experience, working with a 514 00:18:45,875 --> 00:18:47,375 teenager in school, they're often the 515 00:18:47,375 --> 00:18:50,000 academic and the athlete, and they've got 516 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:51,333 pressure to get into the 517 00:18:51,333 --> 00:18:52,875 university, et cetera, et cetera. 518 00:18:52,875 --> 00:18:55,666 There's just an accumulative strain on 519 00:18:55,666 --> 00:18:58,833 the systems and it's meant that they've 520 00:18:58,833 --> 00:18:59,750 hit their threshold. 521 00:19:00,708 --> 00:19:02,958 So I think it's really important when 522 00:19:02,958 --> 00:19:05,000 we're thinking about someone's timeline, 523 00:19:05,291 --> 00:19:08,875 basically their life story, we're trying 524 00:19:08,875 --> 00:19:11,666 to understand where are these stresses 525 00:19:11,666 --> 00:19:13,541 and strains, where have they come from? 526 00:19:13,541 --> 00:19:14,916 Has it been through courses of 527 00:19:14,916 --> 00:19:17,458 antibiotics or has it been through family 528 00:19:17,458 --> 00:19:20,083 dynamics or were they bullied or what was 529 00:19:20,083 --> 00:19:22,416 their diet like or did they live in a 530 00:19:22,416 --> 00:19:23,750 water-damaged property? 531 00:19:24,375 --> 00:19:25,916 What infections, what 532 00:19:25,916 --> 00:19:27,583 diagnoses have they received? 533 00:19:28,250 --> 00:19:29,500 And then you can start to get a little 534 00:19:29,500 --> 00:19:32,666 bit more of, I think, a helpful model in 535 00:19:32,666 --> 00:19:35,666 regards to this individual, "This is 536 00:19:35,666 --> 00:19:37,500 their story, this is their experience," 537 00:19:37,500 --> 00:19:40,625 and then we get a sense of where we might 538 00:19:40,625 --> 00:19:42,083 want to go to support them. 539 00:19:42,583 --> 00:19:45,041 Yeah, no, I think that just points to the 540 00:19:45,041 --> 00:19:47,000 need for a personalised approach. 541 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:47,708 It really does. 542 00:19:48,541 --> 00:19:51,291 I think there's just so much chicken and 543 00:19:51,291 --> 00:19:53,791 egg when dealing with a condition like 544 00:19:53,791 --> 00:19:56,333 this, as you sort of alluded to earlier. 545 00:19:57,458 --> 00:19:59,041 I do like the fact that you brought up 546 00:19:59,041 --> 00:20:01,041 the concept of an elastatic load. 547 00:20:21,208 --> 00:20:22,250 I don't know if you're familiar with Dr. Eric Balc Harvage? Yeah, I think that's a very important point, too, that is to keep the sense of 548 00:20:22,250 --> 00:20:23,500 the mischievousness of energy production. 549 00:20:23,833 --> 00:20:27,083 And that's consequently, it starts to 550 00:20:27,083 --> 00:20:29,958 downregulate itself to the point where it 551 00:20:29,958 --> 00:20:33,125 is able to find its own equilibrium again 552 00:20:33,125 --> 00:20:36,083 in a reduced state of energy production. 553 00:20:36,500 --> 00:20:39,416 So it's trying to find that lowest common 554 00:20:39,416 --> 00:20:43,125 denominator where it's essentially still 555 00:20:43,125 --> 00:20:44,708 functional, although at a 556 00:20:49,250 --> 00:20:51,666 point, I think that's, I like that lens, 557 00:20:51,666 --> 00:20:53,916 looking through it as the fact that 558 00:20:53,916 --> 00:20:55,291 there's not something wrong, it's just 559 00:20:55,291 --> 00:20:58,833 the fact that the cell and the body oil 560 00:20:58,833 --> 00:21:03,208 in the specific sense, the area in which 561 00:21:04,666 --> 00:21:06,625 is an issue has become downregulated. 562 00:21:07,750 --> 00:21:10,750 And yeah, I like that lens, I like 563 00:21:10,750 --> 00:21:12,291 looking through that standpoint. 564 00:21:13,583 --> 00:21:15,875 Alex, you mentioned heavy metals earlier, 565 00:21:16,250 --> 00:21:18,541 and I'd like to ask a 566 00:21:18,541 --> 00:21:19,833 quick follow up question there. 567 00:21:21,791 --> 00:21:26,875 I think everyone and their aunt generally 568 00:21:26,875 --> 00:21:28,500 test positive for heavy metals. 569 00:21:28,500 --> 00:21:29,916 I don't know if you see that in clinical 570 00:21:29,916 --> 00:21:31,958 practice a lot, but from some of the 571 00:21:31,958 --> 00:21:34,583 research I've done, I've noted that when 572 00:21:34,583 --> 00:21:37,000 there is a lot of inflammation in the 573 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:39,000 body, for whatever reason, that you're 574 00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:43,958 going to then have an inability for the 575 00:21:43,958 --> 00:21:45,666 body to properly detox, you're going to 576 00:21:45,666 --> 00:21:47,708 have impaired lymph activity, you're 577 00:21:47,708 --> 00:21:49,750 going to have compromised maybe bowel 578 00:21:49,750 --> 00:21:52,083 flow or hepatic liver function. 579 00:21:53,666 --> 00:21:55,250 And then subsequently, you're then going 580 00:21:55,250 --> 00:21:57,875 to end up with an accumulation of these 581 00:21:57,875 --> 00:21:58,958 environmental toxins. 582 00:22:01,416 --> 00:22:03,958 Now I know that there's a lot of 583 00:22:03,958 --> 00:22:06,166 bioenvironmental toxins, 584 00:22:06,166 --> 00:22:07,500 heavy metals, molds, etc. 585 00:22:08,708 --> 00:22:10,375 Now I know there's a lot of talk about 586 00:22:10,375 --> 00:22:12,166 this, this at the moment, it's quite 587 00:22:12,166 --> 00:22:15,916 invoke, I think, talking about the fact 588 00:22:15,916 --> 00:22:17,250 that if you drink water out of any 589 00:22:17,250 --> 00:22:18,916 plastic bottle, you're going to be dead 590 00:22:18,916 --> 00:22:19,875 and five seconds flat. 591 00:22:21,500 --> 00:22:23,875 But do you think that these are necessary 592 00:22:23,875 --> 00:22:25,875 and just plain devil's advocate, by the 593 00:22:25,875 --> 00:22:28,541 way, because I fully subscribe to the 594 00:22:28,541 --> 00:22:30,458 model that these 595 00:22:30,458 --> 00:22:32,916 environmental toxins are an issue. 596 00:22:33,500 --> 00:22:34,583 But do you think that there 597 00:22:34,583 --> 00:22:37,333 are a trigger in their own right? 598 00:22:37,541 --> 00:22:39,500 Or are they just a downstream consequence 599 00:22:39,500 --> 00:22:43,000 of the body not necessarily being in a 600 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:44,625 position to effectively 601 00:22:44,625 --> 00:22:46,500 get rid of these chemicals? 602 00:22:47,708 --> 00:22:50,458 I would say both, dependent on the 603 00:22:50,458 --> 00:22:51,750 individual, ultimately. 604 00:22:52,333 --> 00:22:55,000 So my thinking around this, certainly 605 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:56,583 with heavy metals, if we think of heavy 606 00:22:56,583 --> 00:22:58,500 metals, because it's slightly different, 607 00:22:58,875 --> 00:23:00,708 you could say in some ways from a micro 608 00:23:00,708 --> 00:23:02,916 toxins, for example, but heavy metals, 609 00:23:03,291 --> 00:23:06,041 the two primary mechanisms by which they 610 00:23:06,041 --> 00:23:09,708 cause havoc on our cells is 611 00:23:09,708 --> 00:23:11,333 inflammation, oxidative stress. 612 00:23:12,583 --> 00:23:14,458 And therefore, the question becomes, you 613 00:23:14,458 --> 00:23:16,250 know, why can some of us be walking down 614 00:23:16,250 --> 00:23:18,875 the high street feeling relatively well, 615 00:23:18,875 --> 00:23:21,791 asymptomatic, and have positive heavy 616 00:23:21,791 --> 00:23:23,750 metal tests or micro toxin tests. 617 00:23:24,416 --> 00:23:26,041 And you know, I think you've always got 618 00:23:26,041 --> 00:23:28,375 to put the environmental toxin within the 619 00:23:28,375 --> 00:23:30,041 context of someone's 620 00:23:30,041 --> 00:23:32,333 capacity to deal with it, basically. 621 00:23:33,041 --> 00:23:34,000 So what is someone's 622 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:35,458 antioxidant status like? 623 00:23:35,458 --> 00:23:37,916 What is someone's immune resilience like, 624 00:23:37,916 --> 00:23:39,833 meaning what kind of anti inflammatory 625 00:23:42,083 --> 00:23:43,750 sort of approach or 626 00:23:43,750 --> 00:23:44,875 benefit can they take? 627 00:23:45,500 --> 00:23:48,916 So I don't think again, it's ever just 628 00:23:48,916 --> 00:23:51,500 the micro toxin or just the heavy metal. 629 00:23:52,083 --> 00:23:54,666 It is a why is this accumulated as you 630 00:23:54,666 --> 00:23:55,916 were sort of alluding to? 631 00:23:56,250 --> 00:23:59,500 And secondly, have you lost capacity to 632 00:23:59,500 --> 00:24:01,958 manage that's going back to the 633 00:24:01,958 --> 00:24:04,333 allostatic load and this idea that the 634 00:24:04,333 --> 00:24:05,333 body's maintaining 635 00:24:05,333 --> 00:24:07,750 equilibrium as long as it can do. 636 00:24:08,125 --> 00:24:09,541 And therefore, there's going to be a 637 00:24:09,541 --> 00:24:11,708 certain amount of heavy metal or micro 638 00:24:11,708 --> 00:24:14,125 toxin mold, it can accumulate and 639 00:24:14,125 --> 00:24:16,000 maintain homeostasis. 640 00:24:16,666 --> 00:24:18,791 And that level that it can accumulate is 641 00:24:18,791 --> 00:24:20,375 going to be based on your anesthetic 642 00:24:20,375 --> 00:24:22,500 load, your nutrient status, your bio 643 00:24:22,500 --> 00:24:24,500 flow, everything, your overall health and 644 00:24:24,500 --> 00:24:26,000 your overall physiological function. 645 00:24:26,916 --> 00:24:28,500 So again, it's got to just be put within 646 00:24:28,500 --> 00:24:31,375 the context of the body and the person 647 00:24:31,375 --> 00:24:33,708 and how they're able to handle that 648 00:24:33,708 --> 00:24:35,500 ultimately, what's their overall 649 00:24:35,500 --> 00:24:37,166 resilience like within this? 650 00:24:37,666 --> 00:24:38,958 Because it's true, you know, inflammation 651 00:24:38,958 --> 00:24:41,041 will absolutely down regulate various 652 00:24:41,041 --> 00:24:43,250 liver enzymes that detoxify some of these 653 00:24:43,250 --> 00:24:46,208 things, but also chronic stress will down 654 00:24:46,208 --> 00:24:48,250 regulate detoxification because you're 655 00:24:48,250 --> 00:24:51,375 distributing your resources according to 656 00:24:51,375 --> 00:24:53,000 the state of that nervous system. 657 00:24:53,625 --> 00:24:56,416 So if you've got someone who is in some 658 00:24:56,416 --> 00:24:59,083 state of fight or flight, let's just say 659 00:24:59,083 --> 00:25:00,500 they have an aura ring and you know, 660 00:25:00,500 --> 00:25:01,583 their HRV is down in 661 00:25:01,583 --> 00:25:02,833 the 20s all the time. 662 00:25:03,291 --> 00:25:06,500 That is someone who isn't in a state to 663 00:25:06,500 --> 00:25:09,166 heal, you know, they are in a mobilized 664 00:25:09,166 --> 00:25:11,583 state whereby at a cellular level, they 665 00:25:11,583 --> 00:25:14,583 are in a state of stress, they are 666 00:25:14,583 --> 00:25:16,000 unsafe, there's danger 667 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,000 somewhere that is being detected. 668 00:25:18,708 --> 00:25:20,291 And therefore, resources are being 669 00:25:20,291 --> 00:25:24,000 distributed to fight or flight or freeze. 670 00:25:25,916 --> 00:25:27,291 And again, you are going to get an 671 00:25:27,291 --> 00:25:29,333 accumulation of environmental toxins, you 672 00:25:29,333 --> 00:25:31,791 are going to get compromised digestive 673 00:25:31,791 --> 00:25:33,375 health, you're going to get compromised 674 00:25:33,375 --> 00:25:35,708 gut lining health, because those things 675 00:25:35,708 --> 00:25:36,833 just aren't important 676 00:25:36,833 --> 00:25:38,125 to that point in time. 677 00:25:38,875 --> 00:25:39,791 So I think there are some real 678 00:25:39,791 --> 00:25:42,125 foundational pieces that have to be 679 00:25:42,125 --> 00:25:45,333 considered before even sort of thinking 680 00:25:45,333 --> 00:25:47,416 about what's the appropriate protocol for 681 00:25:47,416 --> 00:25:49,958 this person, based on any of that kind of 682 00:25:49,958 --> 00:25:51,416 functional testing that you might have 683 00:25:51,416 --> 00:25:53,708 done, because, you know, they might have 684 00:25:53,708 --> 00:25:54,833 SIBO, a good chunk of 685 00:25:54,833 --> 00:25:56,500 people with CFS do have SIBO. 686 00:25:57,916 --> 00:25:59,041 But is that because of the 687 00:25:59,041 --> 00:26:00,458 state of their nervous system? 688 00:26:00,458 --> 00:26:02,208 And actually, if you support them in that 689 00:26:02,208 --> 00:26:02,958 side of things, then 690 00:26:02,958 --> 00:26:04,208 the SIBO just disappears. 691 00:26:05,791 --> 00:26:07,958 So yeah, it's just another key 692 00:26:07,958 --> 00:26:08,625 consideration, 693 00:26:08,625 --> 00:26:10,333 ultimately, within all of this. 694 00:26:11,833 --> 00:26:13,625 So yes, you like going back to your 695 00:26:13,625 --> 00:26:15,208 question a little bit there, Robert, if 696 00:26:15,208 --> 00:26:16,541 someone's got a positive 697 00:26:16,541 --> 00:26:18,041 environmental toxin test, 698 00:26:19,583 --> 00:26:20,958 and I don't have I don't know if there's 699 00:26:20,958 --> 00:26:22,541 like an obvious answer here or black and 700 00:26:22,541 --> 00:26:24,500 white answer, there never really is. 701 00:26:24,875 --> 00:26:28,125 But if you were able to improve their 702 00:26:28,333 --> 00:26:30,458 nutrient status, if you were able to 703 00:26:30,458 --> 00:26:33,083 reduce the oxidative stress, if you were 704 00:26:33,083 --> 00:26:35,875 able to reduce the inflammation in kind 705 00:26:35,875 --> 00:26:38,750 of independent of that toxic burden, to 706 00:26:38,750 --> 00:26:39,625 some degree, you 707 00:26:39,625 --> 00:26:41,000 would be able to do that. 708 00:26:41,875 --> 00:26:43,583 Would that person get noticeable 709 00:26:43,583 --> 00:26:46,083 improvement in symptoms, but still have a 710 00:26:46,083 --> 00:26:48,500 chunk of that trigger or 711 00:26:48,500 --> 00:26:50,000 environmental toxin left? 712 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:51,083 And I believe, yes, you 713 00:26:51,083 --> 00:26:52,125 know, that's quite possible. 714 00:26:52,958 --> 00:26:55,333 So do we need to get do we need to detox 715 00:26:55,333 --> 00:26:56,791 totally and get like a 716 00:26:56,791 --> 00:26:58,000 negative test result? 717 00:26:58,000 --> 00:26:59,000 Or actually, do we just need 718 00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:00,083 to get them feeling better? 719 00:27:01,375 --> 00:27:02,416 You know, and that's where you know, you 720 00:27:02,416 --> 00:27:04,875 never really want to be treating the test 721 00:27:04,875 --> 00:27:05,958 results or the page. 722 00:27:06,666 --> 00:27:08,666 Yeah, no, I couldn't 723 00:27:08,666 --> 00:27:09,666 have said a bit of myself. 724 00:27:10,166 --> 00:27:12,708 And yeah, I think it really does speak to 725 00:27:12,708 --> 00:27:16,083 the importance of looking at a client's 726 00:27:16,083 --> 00:27:18,291 symptoms, or what patient's symptoms or 727 00:27:18,291 --> 00:27:20,791 an individual symptoms and sort of 728 00:27:20,791 --> 00:27:24,416 acknowledging those as maybe the 729 00:27:24,416 --> 00:27:26,083 benchmark of health. 730 00:27:26,541 --> 00:27:28,750 I think a lot of practitioners, at least 731 00:27:28,750 --> 00:27:30,708 in my experience, maybe not a lot, but 732 00:27:30,708 --> 00:27:33,458 maybe neuro practitioners tend to sort of 733 00:27:33,458 --> 00:27:34,291 get caught up with the 734 00:27:34,291 --> 00:27:35,291 number that's on the page. 735 00:27:35,625 --> 00:27:38,000 And I think that can sometimes be to the 736 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:39,875 detriment of the individual in question. 737 00:27:40,500 --> 00:27:40,958 Definitely. 738 00:27:42,375 --> 00:27:43,625 Yeah, just sort of, 739 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:45,833 I sort of I'd like to 740 00:27:45,833 --> 00:27:46,708 move on in a second. 741 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:48,750 But for the listener, 742 00:27:49,791 --> 00:27:51,125 we've discussed a lot of triggers, 743 00:27:51,500 --> 00:27:53,041 everything from some sort of the some 744 00:27:53,041 --> 00:27:56,333 from, yeah, viral infections, to 745 00:27:56,333 --> 00:27:57,833 bacterial infections, things like tick 746 00:27:57,833 --> 00:28:01,041 bites, to potential molds and mycotoxins. 747 00:28:02,500 --> 00:28:04,166 For those listening who maybe are just 748 00:28:04,166 --> 00:28:06,125 sort of trying to figure this out 749 00:28:06,125 --> 00:28:08,875 themselves to start with, how do you how 750 00:28:08,875 --> 00:28:13,875 would you advise them to start when there 751 00:28:13,875 --> 00:28:16,250 isn't necessarily an obvious 752 00:28:17,458 --> 00:28:19,958 sign of or beginning or trigger? 753 00:28:20,166 --> 00:28:22,041 Obviously, if you have something 754 00:28:22,041 --> 00:28:23,541 potentially like Lyme disease, there's 755 00:28:23,541 --> 00:28:26,208 going to be a bullseye rash in all 756 00:28:26,208 --> 00:28:28,375 likelihood, that's a pretty good 757 00:28:28,375 --> 00:28:30,833 indicator of where the issue sort of 758 00:28:30,833 --> 00:28:32,375 starts has started off. 759 00:28:32,750 --> 00:28:35,041 But for individuals who just sort of 760 00:28:35,041 --> 00:28:37,833 slowly enter this sort of malaise of 761 00:28:37,833 --> 00:28:40,625 dysfunction, how do you normally sort of 762 00:28:40,625 --> 00:28:42,958 work through that process when there 763 00:28:42,958 --> 00:28:45,000 obviously is a lot going on, but there's 764 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:46,958 sort of, yeah, like, as I said, and sorry 765 00:28:46,958 --> 00:28:49,208 for being verbose, no sort of clear 766 00:28:49,208 --> 00:28:51,958 signal, as it were, as to what's maybe 767 00:28:51,958 --> 00:28:53,125 initiated the problem? 768 00:28:53,625 --> 00:28:55,000 Yeah, it's a good question, especially 769 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:55,875 when there isn't sort of 770 00:28:55,875 --> 00:28:57,666 an obvious trigger as such. 771 00:28:58,375 --> 00:29:00,000 I think you know, you always want to be, 772 00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:02,083 you always want to be 773 00:29:02,083 --> 00:29:03,833 thinking about that timeline. 774 00:29:03,833 --> 00:29:05,375 So one of the analogies I use is, you 775 00:29:05,375 --> 00:29:07,583 know, we're trying to get to the first or 776 00:29:07,583 --> 00:29:09,666 first few dominoes that fell over and 777 00:29:09,666 --> 00:29:11,625 pick those back up to have any chance of 778 00:29:11,625 --> 00:29:12,875 obviously dealing with the rest. 779 00:29:13,750 --> 00:29:15,750 So when we think of like cellular energy 780 00:29:15,750 --> 00:29:17,708 production, there are some real 781 00:29:17,708 --> 00:29:18,833 foundational things that 782 00:29:18,833 --> 00:29:19,916 would need to be ruled out. 783 00:29:20,125 --> 00:29:22,500 And again, I think one of the challenges 784 00:29:22,500 --> 00:29:25,208 we have with kind of CFS me is, is the 785 00:29:25,208 --> 00:29:28,541 breadth of debilitation, if that's the 786 00:29:28,541 --> 00:29:30,250 right word, like some people are still 787 00:29:30,250 --> 00:29:32,208 working, but are struggling with their 788 00:29:32,208 --> 00:29:33,833 chronic fatigue syndrome, some people are 789 00:29:33,833 --> 00:29:35,500 totally bed bound and can 790 00:29:35,500 --> 00:29:36,541 barely hold a conversation. 791 00:29:37,625 --> 00:29:39,041 And they're all put under the same 792 00:29:39,041 --> 00:29:39,416 umbrella 793 00:29:39,416 --> 00:29:41,166 fundamentally, which is just crazy. 794 00:29:41,875 --> 00:29:43,416 And I think that's why there's, there's a 795 00:29:43,416 --> 00:29:45,666 lot of friction and a lot of heat in some 796 00:29:45,666 --> 00:29:47,291 of these kind of conversations, because 797 00:29:47,291 --> 00:29:48,541 actually, who are we talking about? 798 00:29:48,541 --> 00:29:49,291 These are two very 799 00:29:49,291 --> 00:29:50,500 different types of people. 800 00:29:52,750 --> 00:29:54,541 But you know, if we think of, if we try 801 00:29:54,541 --> 00:29:56,208 and maybe go through the entire spectrum, 802 00:29:56,208 --> 00:29:56,708 we're thinking, okay, 803 00:29:56,708 --> 00:29:57,833 what's your nutrient status? 804 00:29:58,083 --> 00:29:59,916 Because for some people, it could be, you 805 00:29:59,916 --> 00:30:01,791 know, like an iron deficiency anemia, or 806 00:30:01,791 --> 00:30:03,958 a B12 deficiency that's actually 807 00:30:03,958 --> 00:30:05,750 contributing to that fatigue. 808 00:30:06,125 --> 00:30:08,041 So at the early stages, there are some 809 00:30:08,041 --> 00:30:09,791 really basic things that obviously have 810 00:30:09,791 --> 00:30:11,333 to be really ruled out. 811 00:30:12,666 --> 00:30:14,125 We will do want to be 812 00:30:14,125 --> 00:30:15,958 thinking around gut health. 813 00:30:15,958 --> 00:30:17,375 So then we start thinking about how many 814 00:30:17,375 --> 00:30:19,166 courses of antibiotics have you had? 815 00:30:19,541 --> 00:30:21,250 And what's your diet been like over 816 00:30:21,291 --> 00:30:22,666 different stages of life? 817 00:30:22,666 --> 00:30:23,666 Ultimately, what's your 818 00:30:23,666 --> 00:30:25,250 alcohol intake been like? 819 00:30:25,625 --> 00:30:27,333 What's your sort of drug sort 820 00:30:27,333 --> 00:30:29,500 of intake or usage been like? 821 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:32,750 I think adverse childhood events is a 822 00:30:32,750 --> 00:30:33,791 really big one as well. 823 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:35,208 So that has to be considered. 824 00:30:35,625 --> 00:30:38,166 And, you know, understandably, the public 825 00:30:38,166 --> 00:30:40,583 often don't understand there can be a 826 00:30:40,583 --> 00:30:42,291 connection between those first few years 827 00:30:42,291 --> 00:30:44,583 of life and why you ended up with a 828 00:30:44,583 --> 00:30:47,083 disease when you were 40, for example, 829 00:30:47,083 --> 00:30:49,083 but we see in the research partly related 830 00:30:49,083 --> 00:30:51,000 to this idea of allostatic lows, that 831 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:52,791 there's a real connection there. 832 00:30:53,208 --> 00:30:56,000 So I do think going back to day one, if 833 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:57,833 not earlier, is actually a really 834 00:30:57,833 --> 00:31:00,500 important way to sort of move forward to 835 00:31:00,500 --> 00:31:01,458 ensure we're not missing 836 00:31:01,458 --> 00:31:02,750 any pieces of the puzzle. 837 00:31:04,500 --> 00:31:06,375 You know, questions around have you lived 838 00:31:06,375 --> 00:31:08,041 in a property that's had any visible 839 00:31:08,041 --> 00:31:10,458 mold, or just a historical water leak? 840 00:31:10,458 --> 00:31:12,958 Or do you feel better when you're out of 841 00:31:12,958 --> 00:31:13,750 your property on 842 00:31:13,750 --> 00:31:15,333 holiday or visiting a friend? 843 00:31:15,875 --> 00:31:18,375 Or have you noticed sort of symptoms 844 00:31:18,375 --> 00:31:19,041 coming on when 845 00:31:19,041 --> 00:31:20,708 entering certain properties? 846 00:31:20,708 --> 00:31:23,291 Just to get a sense of if there is 847 00:31:23,291 --> 00:31:25,541 anything there from a sort of mold 848 00:31:25,541 --> 00:31:29,250 mycotoxin sort of perspective, what's 849 00:31:29,250 --> 00:31:30,333 their oral health like? 850 00:31:30,333 --> 00:31:32,125 Do they have any amalgam fillings that we 851 00:31:32,125 --> 00:31:32,791 just need to be a 852 00:31:32,791 --> 00:31:33,833 little bit mindful about? 853 00:31:34,541 --> 00:31:35,750 And these sorts of things. 854 00:31:35,750 --> 00:31:37,750 So I think it's just it's a mixture of 855 00:31:37,750 --> 00:31:39,250 understanding someone's actual just 856 00:31:39,250 --> 00:31:41,833 journey, and the key events within it, 857 00:31:41,833 --> 00:31:44,125 and then asking specific questions that 858 00:31:44,125 --> 00:31:47,000 are the best we can do to get a sense of 859 00:31:47,000 --> 00:31:48,750 do we need to go further with this 860 00:31:49,208 --> 00:31:51,750 inquiry, which might be then a mycotoxin 861 00:31:51,750 --> 00:31:54,125 test or whatever it may be. 862 00:31:54,708 --> 00:31:55,833 You know, have you been 863 00:31:55,833 --> 00:31:57,166 knowingly bitten by a tick? 864 00:31:57,500 --> 00:31:59,000 Or, you know, did you have a dog? 865 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:00,208 Have you lived in the countryside? 866 00:32:00,583 --> 00:32:01,541 These sorts of things can 867 00:32:01,541 --> 00:32:02,875 all be considered as well. 868 00:32:02,875 --> 00:32:04,916 I've had a couple of clients just spring 869 00:32:04,916 --> 00:32:08,875 to mind who, you know, moved into a 870 00:32:08,875 --> 00:32:12,375 property that was rural, and it was 871 00:32:12,375 --> 00:32:14,125 surrounded by fields, and they were just 872 00:32:14,125 --> 00:32:16,208 aware of the tractors spraying stuff all 873 00:32:16,208 --> 00:32:16,958 over the crops that 874 00:32:16,958 --> 00:32:17,958 they were surrounded by. 875 00:32:17,958 --> 00:32:19,541 And you just start thinking, okay, there 876 00:32:19,541 --> 00:32:21,000 could very much be an environmental 877 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,250 exposure there, that has been 878 00:32:23,250 --> 00:32:24,583 contributing to why they're 879 00:32:24,583 --> 00:32:25,791 now feeling the way they do. 880 00:32:26,916 --> 00:32:28,791 So even little things like that, that if 881 00:32:28,791 --> 00:32:30,250 you don't ask the question, you might 882 00:32:30,250 --> 00:32:33,375 never know that they live surrounded by 883 00:32:33,375 --> 00:32:35,125 fields that are sprayed with all sorts of 884 00:32:35,125 --> 00:32:37,000 different pesticides, herbicides, 885 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:38,333 fungicides throughout the year. 886 00:32:40,458 --> 00:32:43,500 So yes, I think a mixture of questioning 887 00:32:43,500 --> 00:32:46,041 and just plotting someone's timeline. 888 00:32:46,041 --> 00:32:46,375 You know, what was 889 00:32:46,375 --> 00:32:47,625 the first 10 years like? 890 00:32:47,625 --> 00:32:48,958 What were your teenage years like? 891 00:32:48,958 --> 00:32:50,541 What happened in your 20s? 892 00:32:50,958 --> 00:32:52,958 And then, you know, asking the specific 893 00:32:52,958 --> 00:32:54,541 questions just to try and 894 00:32:54,541 --> 00:32:56,416 rule in or rule out any of that. 895 00:32:56,416 --> 00:32:57,500 Did you have glandular fever, 896 00:32:58,625 --> 00:32:59,000 etc. 897 00:32:59,541 --> 00:33:01,375 So I think, you know, that's the that's 898 00:33:01,375 --> 00:33:02,916 the only way to go about it really. 899 00:33:03,208 --> 00:33:05,875 And then I do find the HRV monitoring in 900 00:33:05,875 --> 00:33:09,000 some people can be really helpful in 901 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,708 others is feels really unhelpful and can 902 00:33:11,708 --> 00:33:13,875 be just frustrating sometimes. 903 00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:16,958 Yeah, that was actually going to be my 904 00:33:16,958 --> 00:33:18,500 next question was about HRV. 905 00:33:19,500 --> 00:33:20,958 I've always sort of looked at it as more 906 00:33:20,958 --> 00:33:24,583 of a performance metric because when you 907 00:33:24,583 --> 00:33:28,166 have somebody who is definitely in a 908 00:33:28,166 --> 00:33:32,041 state of disease or unwellness, was a 909 00:33:32,041 --> 00:33:34,708 better word, their HRV is going to be 910 00:33:34,708 --> 00:33:36,083 tanged almost regardless. 911 00:33:36,500 --> 00:33:38,041 At least that's been my experience. 912 00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:40,500 Again, not a clinician. 913 00:33:40,500 --> 00:33:42,458 So I don't necessarily have that hands on 914 00:33:42,458 --> 00:33:44,791 understanding of the technology. 915 00:33:45,458 --> 00:33:47,125 But do you think it is, I mean, evidently 916 00:33:47,125 --> 00:33:50,000 to do, but how do you utilize it from 917 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:51,833 that standpoint, if you 918 00:33:51,833 --> 00:33:52,583 sort of get what I mean? 919 00:33:53,166 --> 00:33:56,291 Is it a tool that you find is able to 920 00:33:56,291 --> 00:33:58,416 provide sort of that longitudinal data 921 00:33:58,416 --> 00:34:02,166 that is consistently objectively useful? 922 00:34:02,458 --> 00:34:04,833 Or does it just become a bit sort of 923 00:34:04,833 --> 00:34:06,041 almost background or shifts? 924 00:34:06,041 --> 00:34:09,125 It's a bit like some of these new tests 925 00:34:09,125 --> 00:34:11,916 that are looking at DNA methylation that 926 00:34:11,916 --> 00:34:13,750 show that you have a high level of 927 00:34:13,750 --> 00:34:16,666 information there before you're going to 928 00:34:16,666 --> 00:34:17,625 either die tomorrow or 929 00:34:17,625 --> 00:34:18,500 in a thousand years' time. 930 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:21,750 They don't necessarily provide a 931 00:34:21,750 --> 00:34:23,000 quantitative standpoint 932 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:24,208 of actually what's wrong. 933 00:34:25,166 --> 00:34:26,250 Maybe some of the new 934 00:34:26,250 --> 00:34:28,166 true age diagnostic tests do. 935 00:34:29,333 --> 00:34:31,375 And I'm sorry, I'm just being a verbose 936 00:34:31,375 --> 00:34:33,666 again, but they just provide this sort of 937 00:34:33,666 --> 00:34:36,333 this blanket statement, i.e. you are 938 00:34:36,333 --> 00:34:38,375 inflamed, you have a terrible score. 939 00:34:38,958 --> 00:34:42,583 Do you find that to be 940 00:34:42,583 --> 00:34:44,375 this similar with HRV? 941 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:48,375 I think I honestly have found it helpful 942 00:34:48,875 --> 00:34:51,291 in certain individuals and that's not 943 00:34:51,291 --> 00:34:52,875 based on the individual, but more just 944 00:34:52,875 --> 00:34:54,875 like the context, what I mean there. 945 00:34:54,875 --> 00:34:56,000 So just to give examples, 946 00:34:56,291 --> 00:34:58,083 I find one of two things. 947 00:34:58,083 --> 00:34:59,708 Either it's really low, you know, it can 948 00:34:59,708 --> 00:35:01,958 be in the tens, twenties, low thirties, 949 00:35:02,416 --> 00:35:05,875 or it's really high and symptomatically 950 00:35:06,666 --> 00:35:09,791 lifestyle that person looks, feels like 951 00:35:09,791 --> 00:35:11,083 actually they're in more of like a 952 00:35:11,083 --> 00:35:13,083 freeze, functional freeze type states. 953 00:35:13,750 --> 00:35:15,625 And in both those situations, I think it 954 00:35:15,625 --> 00:35:18,166 can be helpful in the sense that if 955 00:35:18,166 --> 00:35:20,000 you've got someone with really low HRV, 956 00:35:20,250 --> 00:35:22,000 then you know, we're being informed that 957 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:23,750 that person is in, people 958 00:35:23,750 --> 00:35:24,750 call it different things. 959 00:35:24,750 --> 00:35:25,875 I've heard it as being 960 00:35:25,875 --> 00:35:27,916 called sort of a mobilized state. 961 00:35:27,916 --> 00:35:29,250 They're in that kind of fight or flight, 962 00:35:29,583 --> 00:35:32,416 they're putting resources to sort of 963 00:35:32,416 --> 00:35:34,458 fight or flight and survival ultimately. 964 00:35:34,833 --> 00:35:36,208 So they're not detoxing, they're not 965 00:35:36,208 --> 00:35:37,250 digesting as well as 966 00:35:37,250 --> 00:35:38,791 they could be, etc, etc. 967 00:35:39,500 --> 00:35:43,375 That is someone who most likely will not 968 00:35:43,375 --> 00:35:46,208 respond to antimicrobials as well as 969 00:35:46,208 --> 00:35:48,250 someone who's got better HRV. 970 00:35:48,791 --> 00:35:50,833 They're more likely to have a Herxheimer 971 00:35:50,833 --> 00:35:52,583 type reaction and therefore you might not 972 00:35:52,583 --> 00:35:54,208 even go there to begin 973 00:35:54,208 --> 00:35:55,083 with, with that person. 974 00:35:55,333 --> 00:35:58,166 You might work on some of the metabolic 975 00:35:58,166 --> 00:36:00,208 aspects of things and look to get that 976 00:36:00,208 --> 00:36:02,041 heart rate variability up a little bit 977 00:36:02,041 --> 00:36:05,000 before going in with antimicrobials to 978 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:06,208 avoid just a Herxheimer 979 00:36:06,208 --> 00:36:07,500 die-off type situation. 980 00:36:08,500 --> 00:36:10,833 So it can be helpful because it can to 981 00:36:10,833 --> 00:36:13,666 some degree inform when is the right time 982 00:36:13,666 --> 00:36:15,708 to do the intervention that 983 00:36:15,708 --> 00:36:17,000 you are thinking of doing. 984 00:36:18,083 --> 00:36:19,583 And at the under end of the spectrum, if 985 00:36:19,583 --> 00:36:20,583 you've got someone the way you're 986 00:36:20,583 --> 00:36:22,541 thinking that actually it looks like 987 00:36:22,541 --> 00:36:25,500 they're in more of a freeze state, then 988 00:36:25,500 --> 00:36:28,750 that is someone who is almost guaranteed 989 00:36:28,750 --> 00:36:30,375 to have, they're going to have to feel 990 00:36:30,375 --> 00:36:32,583 worse before they feel better because 991 00:36:32,583 --> 00:36:33,000 they're going to have 992 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:35,375 to move out of a freeze. 993 00:36:36,125 --> 00:36:39,250 And with that comes immobilization that 994 00:36:39,250 --> 00:36:40,583 might manifest as you 995 00:36:40,583 --> 00:36:42,250 know, anxiety, for example. 996 00:36:43,250 --> 00:36:44,916 And you know, I just heard I have a 997 00:36:44,916 --> 00:36:46,958 friend slash colleague who I really 998 00:36:46,958 --> 00:36:50,625 admire, Marek Doyle, who, who would, who 999 00:36:50,625 --> 00:36:53,250 shared a kind of a anecdotal story 1000 00:36:53,250 --> 00:36:55,583 whereby he was warning someone, this was 1001 00:36:55,583 --> 00:36:58,333 sort of the situation they're in, the 1002 00:36:58,333 --> 00:37:01,041 plan they put into place led to some 1003 00:37:01,041 --> 00:37:03,625 anxiety come up and the client thought 1004 00:37:03,625 --> 00:37:04,250 they were having a 1005 00:37:04,250 --> 00:37:06,250 negative reaction to the protocol. 1006 00:37:06,875 --> 00:37:09,291 But Marek monitoring HRV as he does with 1007 00:37:09,291 --> 00:37:10,416 all of his clients saw that 1008 00:37:10,416 --> 00:37:12,166 actually HRV was improving. 1009 00:37:12,166 --> 00:37:13,333 This was someone coming out 1010 00:37:13,333 --> 00:37:15,125 of kind of a freeze state. 1011 00:37:15,375 --> 00:37:18,125 And therefore, the reaction they were 1012 00:37:18,125 --> 00:37:19,666 having, it was something that they were 1013 00:37:19,666 --> 00:37:22,333 going to have to navigate through. 1014 00:37:22,333 --> 00:37:23,458 Ultimately, it was like it was a good 1015 00:37:23,458 --> 00:37:24,750 thing, ultimately, because they were 1016 00:37:24,750 --> 00:37:26,041 coming out of this state. 1017 00:37:26,291 --> 00:37:27,208 And that's the only 1018 00:37:27,208 --> 00:37:28,166 way it's going to work. 1019 00:37:28,916 --> 00:37:30,416 And you wouldn't have known that if you 1020 00:37:30,416 --> 00:37:32,166 weren't tracking heart rate variability 1021 00:37:32,166 --> 00:37:33,916 at that point in time, you might have 1022 00:37:33,916 --> 00:37:35,250 just agreed with them always 1023 00:37:35,250 --> 00:37:36,791 sounds like a die off reaction. 1024 00:37:36,791 --> 00:37:37,541 Yeah, let's back off 1025 00:37:37,541 --> 00:37:38,500 some of these supplements. 1026 00:37:39,250 --> 00:37:41,958 So it can help inform you in 1027 00:37:41,958 --> 00:37:43,458 regards to the interventions. 1028 00:37:43,875 --> 00:37:44,625 Is it working? 1029 00:37:44,625 --> 00:37:45,083 Is it not? 1030 00:37:45,083 --> 00:37:46,166 Is it the right time? 1031 00:37:46,166 --> 00:37:46,666 Is it not? 1032 00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:48,000 So I think it can have real 1033 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:49,416 value from that perspective. 1034 00:37:50,208 --> 00:37:52,375 And then if you are able to obviously get 1035 00:37:52,375 --> 00:37:54,791 improvement month on month, it's just 1036 00:37:54,791 --> 00:37:57,125 obviously incredibly motivating and 1037 00:37:57,125 --> 00:37:59,583 inspiring for the clients because they've 1038 00:37:59,583 --> 00:38:02,166 got this objective biomarker that things 1039 00:38:02,166 --> 00:38:04,083 are starting to move underneath the hood. 1040 00:38:04,083 --> 00:38:06,958 And I've certainly had clients whereby it 1041 00:38:06,958 --> 00:38:09,166 looks like HRV starting to track in the 1042 00:38:09,166 --> 00:38:11,291 right way, but symptomatically, they 1043 00:38:11,291 --> 00:38:13,125 haven't yet noticed improvements. 1044 00:38:13,791 --> 00:38:16,250 So again, it gives them a positive 1045 00:38:16,250 --> 00:38:19,125 reinforcement that this stuff is working 1046 00:38:19,125 --> 00:38:20,166 under the hood, things are 1047 00:38:20,166 --> 00:38:21,125 going in the right direction. 1048 00:38:21,333 --> 00:38:23,500 You just haven't been able to experience 1049 00:38:23,500 --> 00:38:25,000 that on a symptom level yet. 1050 00:38:25,583 --> 00:38:27,041 But we know that what we're doing is 1051 00:38:27,041 --> 00:38:29,000 having a positive impact on physiology 1052 00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:31,333 because HRV is starting to trend upwards. 1053 00:38:32,041 --> 00:38:33,416 So sometimes it can be helpful. 1054 00:38:34,041 --> 00:38:35,333 And then the reasons I think when 1055 00:38:35,333 --> 00:38:36,958 sometimes it doesn't work is primarily 1056 00:38:36,958 --> 00:38:38,958 when it just, you know, it's stuck and 1057 00:38:38,958 --> 00:38:40,666 it's not trending upwards. 1058 00:38:40,666 --> 00:38:41,125 And then it just 1059 00:38:41,125 --> 00:38:42,500 becomes really frustrating. 1060 00:38:42,500 --> 00:38:43,666 And every morning you're looking at your 1061 00:38:43,666 --> 00:38:45,625 data going, "Oh, I'm still just where I 1062 00:38:45,625 --> 00:38:46,625 am and nothing's working." 1063 00:38:46,625 --> 00:38:48,916 And then you start to get that negative 1064 00:38:48,916 --> 00:38:51,333 reinforcement that something's broken or 1065 00:38:51,333 --> 00:38:53,458 I'm not able to get well and actually it 1066 00:38:53,458 --> 00:38:54,500 becomes a real negative 1067 00:38:55,500 --> 00:38:55,833 thing. 1068 00:38:56,958 --> 00:38:58,958 Yeah, I mean, that can be a helpful 1069 00:38:58,958 --> 00:38:59,875 metric in and of itself. 1070 00:39:00,791 --> 00:39:01,125 Exactly. 1071 00:39:01,416 --> 00:39:04,041 Yeah, if you can put it within the right 1072 00:39:04,041 --> 00:39:05,208 context, if you have the right 1073 00:39:05,208 --> 00:39:07,083 relationship with the data, it's still a 1074 00:39:07,083 --> 00:39:08,125 positive thing, ultimately. 1075 00:39:08,375 --> 00:39:09,125 Yeah, I'd agree with that. 1076 00:39:09,416 --> 00:39:11,333 Yeah, no, I think you just got to look at 1077 00:39:11,333 --> 00:39:13,041 as data at the end of the 1078 00:39:13,041 --> 00:39:14,083 day, a bit like SleepScore. 1079 00:39:14,458 --> 00:39:15,875 Just, "Okay, this is my SleepScore. 1080 00:39:16,208 --> 00:39:18,500 And then don't let that sort of influence 1081 00:39:18,500 --> 00:39:20,375 you because it's going to have that sort 1082 00:39:20,375 --> 00:39:22,708 of placebo-no-cebo effect if you sort of 1083 00:39:22,708 --> 00:39:24,666 then sort of feed into it." 1084 00:39:25,250 --> 00:39:28,166 Just, yeah, I suppose that's actually a 1085 00:39:28,166 --> 00:39:30,416 good time to maybe talk about the 1086 00:39:32,083 --> 00:39:34,625 trigger that maybe, and for those 1087 00:39:34,625 --> 00:39:37,166 listening, I've put that into air quotes, 1088 00:39:37,166 --> 00:39:39,541 that most people don't think about and 1089 00:39:39,541 --> 00:39:41,666 something you've already talked more 1090 00:39:41,666 --> 00:39:42,875 alluded to a few times. 1091 00:39:43,166 --> 00:39:47,208 And that's this thing about autonomic 1092 00:39:47,208 --> 00:39:48,916 nervous system dysregulation. 1093 00:39:51,708 --> 00:39:52,916 Yeah, call it what you will, maybe 1094 00:39:52,916 --> 00:39:54,916 adverse childhood events, a sort of a 1095 00:39:54,916 --> 00:39:58,541 heightened limbic system response, a 1096 00:39:58,541 --> 00:40:00,625 hypothalamic response. 1097 00:40:02,333 --> 00:40:06,250 But yeah, I think a lot of people don't 1098 00:40:06,250 --> 00:40:08,208 necessarily think that stress is 1099 00:40:08,208 --> 00:40:11,041 potentially a major trigger or a trigger 1100 00:40:11,041 --> 00:40:14,041 in itself for CFS or 1101 00:40:14,041 --> 00:40:15,958 ME or any fatigue state. 1102 00:40:17,791 --> 00:40:19,583 This is something sort of I get quite 1103 00:40:19,583 --> 00:40:22,166 passionate about because I just love the 1104 00:40:22,166 --> 00:40:25,916 neurobiology behind it, how high levels 1105 00:40:25,916 --> 00:40:29,041 of stress can sort of influence, yeah, 1106 00:40:29,041 --> 00:40:30,833 the release of your transcription factors 1107 00:40:30,833 --> 00:40:32,875 in the cytokines, which then feed down 1108 00:40:32,875 --> 00:40:37,541 into this vicious circle of driving 1109 00:40:37,541 --> 00:40:40,750 central nervous system fatigue, 1110 00:40:41,541 --> 00:40:43,458 upregulating stress hormones and around 1111 00:40:43,458 --> 00:40:44,291 and around you going. 1112 00:40:45,791 --> 00:40:49,250 Could you sort of carry that statement 1113 00:40:49,250 --> 00:40:54,375 forward and discuss why, yeah, it's 1114 00:40:54,375 --> 00:40:55,375 potentially such an issue? 1115 00:40:55,916 --> 00:40:57,166 I can try, yeah. 1116 00:40:57,875 --> 00:41:00,833 So I guess, you know, I kind of do see it 1117 00:41:00,833 --> 00:41:02,208 as foundational ultimately. 1118 00:41:02,458 --> 00:41:03,666 And I think the easiest way to think 1119 00:41:03,666 --> 00:41:05,333 about it is if that autonomic nervous 1120 00:41:05,333 --> 00:41:08,291 system is dysregulated, you know, that is 1121 00:41:08,291 --> 00:41:09,291 kind of the conductor. 1122 00:41:09,666 --> 00:41:12,250 It's dictating to some degree where your 1123 00:41:12,250 --> 00:41:13,750 resources are being distributed. 1124 00:41:14,625 --> 00:41:15,541 And if you're not 1125 00:41:15,541 --> 00:41:17,708 distributing your resources to, 1126 00:41:19,041 --> 00:41:20,416 you know, as we've already sort of 1127 00:41:20,416 --> 00:41:23,291 discussed to certain bodily systems or 1128 00:41:23,291 --> 00:41:24,833 pathways, whether that's the guts, 1129 00:41:24,833 --> 00:41:26,083 whether it's digestion, whether it's 1130 00:41:26,083 --> 00:41:28,250 detoxification, whether it's distributing 1131 00:41:28,250 --> 00:41:30,583 blood flow to the gut lining to maintain 1132 00:41:30,583 --> 00:41:33,541 an intact gut lining, then you're going 1133 00:41:33,541 --> 00:41:36,375 to ultimately end up with these 1134 00:41:36,375 --> 00:41:38,666 downstream consequences that sometimes 1135 00:41:38,666 --> 00:41:40,125 people confuse with the 1136 00:41:40,125 --> 00:41:41,458 trigger, like leaky guts. 1137 00:41:42,291 --> 00:41:43,416 You know, if you're not getting enough 1138 00:41:43,416 --> 00:41:45,375 blood flow to the cells that line the 1139 00:41:45,375 --> 00:41:47,791 guts, then you're not able to repair the 1140 00:41:47,791 --> 00:41:48,458 guts and you will 1141 00:41:48,458 --> 00:41:50,041 have chronic leaky guts. 1142 00:41:50,666 --> 00:41:52,208 So a lot of the things that I think we 1143 00:41:52,208 --> 00:41:54,916 sort of diagnose, so to speak, are often 1144 00:41:54,916 --> 00:42:01,375 downstream of the initial imbalance, if 1145 00:42:01,375 --> 00:42:02,250 we just call it that, 1146 00:42:02,250 --> 00:42:03,041 I guess, ultimately. 1147 00:42:03,750 --> 00:42:05,333 So I do think sort of autonomic nervous 1148 00:42:05,333 --> 00:42:07,666 system, dysregulation, limbic sort of 1149 00:42:07,666 --> 00:42:11,083 dysfunction are common, you know, and 1150 00:42:11,083 --> 00:42:13,875 again, thinking about this just from our 1151 00:42:13,875 --> 00:42:16,958 modern way of living and the environment 1152 00:42:16,958 --> 00:42:19,083 that so many of us are in, you can take 1153 00:42:19,083 --> 00:42:20,958 that in so many different ways, noise 1154 00:42:20,958 --> 00:42:22,625 pollution, air pollution, 1155 00:42:24,291 --> 00:42:26,500 sort of EMFs and going 1156 00:42:26,500 --> 00:42:27,750 down that sort of rabbit hole. 1157 00:42:27,750 --> 00:42:30,166 All of this is having some kind of impact 1158 00:42:30,166 --> 00:42:33,791 on our physiology at an unconscious or 1159 00:42:33,791 --> 00:42:35,208 sometimes conscious level. 1160 00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:38,125 So, you know, living by a really busy, 1161 00:42:38,125 --> 00:42:39,583 noisy road, that is a 1162 00:42:39,583 --> 00:42:41,083 stressor on your physiology. 1163 00:42:42,208 --> 00:42:43,750 You know, there's research around that. 1164 00:42:44,291 --> 00:42:46,541 So my master's dissertation was on 1165 00:42:46,541 --> 00:42:47,833 cortisol resistance and 1166 00:42:47,833 --> 00:42:49,000 chronic fatigue syndrome. 1167 00:42:49,750 --> 00:42:51,833 So again, like you already alluded to a 1168 00:42:51,833 --> 00:42:53,500 little bit, Robert, this idea of if you 1169 00:42:53,500 --> 00:42:56,833 are constantly producing excessive levels 1170 00:42:56,833 --> 00:42:58,958 of cortisol for whatever reason, some 1171 00:42:58,958 --> 00:43:02,083 kind of stressor, let's just say, the 1172 00:43:02,083 --> 00:43:05,250 receptors on your cells to cortisol can 1173 00:43:05,250 --> 00:43:07,916 desensitize, can become resistant, like 1174 00:43:07,916 --> 00:43:08,750 we think of insulin 1175 00:43:08,750 --> 00:43:10,666 resistance and type 2 diabetes. 1176 00:43:11,541 --> 00:43:13,625 And although everyone will know of 1177 00:43:13,625 --> 00:43:16,291 cortisol as the stress hormone, as many 1178 00:43:16,291 --> 00:43:18,083 of us also know, it is a potent 1179 00:43:18,083 --> 00:43:19,083 anti-inflammatory 1180 00:43:19,083 --> 00:43:20,958 immune modulating hormone. 1181 00:43:21,625 --> 00:43:22,958 And therefore, if you end up with 1182 00:43:22,958 --> 00:43:25,250 cortisol resistance, you are not getting 1183 00:43:25,250 --> 00:43:27,750 that anti-inflammatory immune modulating 1184 00:43:27,750 --> 00:43:29,291 property that we need 1185 00:43:29,291 --> 00:43:30,750 and want from cortisol. 1186 00:43:31,500 --> 00:43:33,666 And this can sometimes manifest in low 1187 00:43:33,666 --> 00:43:35,958 cortisol in salivary testing, where 1188 00:43:35,958 --> 00:43:37,791 people go, "Oh, I've got adrenal fatigue. 1189 00:43:37,791 --> 00:43:40,000 I need to kind of support my adrenals." 1190 00:43:40,333 --> 00:43:42,541 Actually, that is again, often thought to 1191 00:43:42,541 --> 00:43:43,916 be an adaptive response. 1192 00:43:44,208 --> 00:43:46,958 Your bodily has deliberately lowered your 1193 00:43:46,958 --> 00:43:49,666 free cortisol to free up immune resources 1194 00:43:49,666 --> 00:43:51,500 to deal with something that you're 1195 00:43:51,500 --> 00:43:52,791 struggling to deal with, 1196 00:43:52,791 --> 00:43:54,083 an infection, for example. 1197 00:43:55,250 --> 00:43:58,458 So I really do, in my heart, believe that 1198 00:43:58,458 --> 00:44:01,000 the body very rarely, 1199 00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:02,250 if ever, makes a mistake 1200 00:44:03,416 --> 00:44:05,000 and that everything we're seeing in test 1201 00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:09,166 results, or nearly everything, is a 1202 00:44:09,166 --> 00:44:13,500 deliberate act by the body, by the cell, 1203 00:44:14,125 --> 00:44:16,291 because it has far more wisdom and 1204 00:44:16,291 --> 00:44:17,791 intelligence than we do. 1205 00:44:18,291 --> 00:44:19,333 And then we're trying to figure out 1206 00:44:19,333 --> 00:44:20,333 what's going on ultimately. 1207 00:44:21,041 --> 00:44:22,083 So the question is, why 1208 00:44:22,083 --> 00:44:23,125 would the body do that? 1209 00:44:23,125 --> 00:44:24,708 Why would the body deliberately do what 1210 00:44:24,708 --> 00:44:26,625 we're seeing with free cortisol that we 1211 00:44:26,625 --> 00:44:28,083 just went through, for example? 1212 00:44:29,500 --> 00:44:31,541 And it's the same with this idea that CFS 1213 00:44:31,541 --> 00:44:35,166 is a sort of hibernation reduced 1214 00:44:35,166 --> 00:44:37,750 metabolic state as a way to 1215 00:44:37,750 --> 00:44:39,500 preserve life, ultimately. 1216 00:44:39,791 --> 00:44:41,000 It just comes at a huge 1217 00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:43,500 cost in many other ways. 1218 00:44:44,083 --> 00:44:46,125 So the body has deliberately done that. 1219 00:44:46,125 --> 00:44:47,458 And what we need to try and do is 1220 00:44:47,458 --> 00:44:50,791 obviously understand the accumulative 1221 00:44:50,791 --> 00:44:51,833 wear and tear and the 1222 00:44:51,833 --> 00:44:53,625 biggest fish in the pond that's Dr. 1223 00:44:53,625 --> 00:44:55,000 Neil Nathan sometimes calls it. 1224 00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:57,625 What are those that if we can act upon 1225 00:44:57,625 --> 00:45:01,125 and if we can sort of deal with, so to 1226 00:45:01,125 --> 00:45:03,875 speak, then the body has enough resources 1227 00:45:03,875 --> 00:45:06,000 to deal with the other stuff that might 1228 00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:07,583 be accumulating the 1229 00:45:07,583 --> 00:45:08,791 wear and the tear as well. 1230 00:45:09,458 --> 00:45:10,833 So there's going to be a tipping point 1231 00:45:10,833 --> 00:45:15,166 whereby healing spontaneously happens 1232 00:45:15,166 --> 00:45:17,083 once we've dealt with the excess that we 1233 00:45:17,083 --> 00:45:18,583 referred to earlier, when we've hit that 1234 00:45:18,583 --> 00:45:20,750 threshold, where the body no longer has 1235 00:45:20,750 --> 00:45:23,750 the resources to cope with the strain 1236 00:45:23,750 --> 00:45:25,625 that is being placed on the system. 1237 00:45:26,458 --> 00:45:28,125 And this is where we also have to be 1238 00:45:28,125 --> 00:45:30,000 thinking about our emotional well-being. 1239 00:45:30,625 --> 00:45:32,333 You know, there's a condition called 1240 00:45:32,333 --> 00:45:34,750 alexithymia, which is kind of this 1241 00:45:34,750 --> 00:45:38,000 reduced ability to identify, label, 1242 00:45:40,083 --> 00:45:41,416 experience our emotions. 1243 00:45:42,583 --> 00:45:44,166 And one of the theories is that if you 1244 00:45:44,166 --> 00:45:46,583 have a reduced ability to kind of 1245 00:45:46,583 --> 00:45:49,250 recognize and identify and label how you 1246 00:45:49,250 --> 00:45:51,625 are emotionally feeling, there's kind of 1247 00:45:51,625 --> 00:45:52,958 like, there's another stressor 1248 00:45:52,958 --> 00:45:54,125 ultimately, because you're not going to 1249 00:45:54,125 --> 00:45:55,583 be able to act accordingly. 1250 00:45:55,583 --> 00:45:57,333 You're not going to be able to respond to 1251 00:45:57,333 --> 00:45:58,625 what is actually happening 1252 00:45:58,625 --> 00:46:00,041 in your internal landscape. 1253 00:46:00,625 --> 00:46:02,625 And that's been associated with some of 1254 00:46:02,625 --> 00:46:03,208 these conditions, 1255 00:46:03,458 --> 00:46:05,708 certainly IBS and fibromyalgia. 1256 00:46:05,708 --> 00:46:07,000 I'm pretty sure chronic 1257 00:46:07,000 --> 00:46:08,291 fatigue syndrome as well. 1258 00:46:08,291 --> 00:46:09,208 It would totally make 1259 00:46:09,208 --> 00:46:10,250 sense that it would be. 1260 00:46:11,083 --> 00:46:12,666 So, you know, I also think that actually 1261 00:46:12,666 --> 00:46:14,291 some of the most powerful therapies can 1262 00:46:14,291 --> 00:46:17,583 sometimes be journaling, for example, but 1263 00:46:17,583 --> 00:46:19,416 not just necessarily journaling without 1264 00:46:19,416 --> 00:46:20,791 any prompts, but, you know, again, 1265 00:46:20,791 --> 00:46:22,500 looking at the research and looking at 1266 00:46:22,500 --> 00:46:24,291 the sort of questions or statements that 1267 00:46:24,291 --> 00:46:26,333 are being used to prompt people to go 1268 00:46:26,333 --> 00:46:28,333 deep with their journaling practice. 1269 00:46:29,458 --> 00:46:31,250 You know, being in the breathwork space a 1270 00:46:31,250 --> 00:46:33,541 little bit, there are, you know, these 1271 00:46:33,541 --> 00:46:35,333 stories of people going into a conscious 1272 00:46:35,333 --> 00:46:37,541 connected breathwork ceremony where 1273 00:46:37,541 --> 00:46:40,000 they're lying down, eyes closed, music 1274 00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:42,000 playing, breathing through the mouth for 1275 00:46:42,000 --> 00:46:45,166 60 minutes, often having some sort of 1276 00:46:45,166 --> 00:46:47,416 quite profound experience. 1277 00:46:47,833 --> 00:46:50,041 That could be an emotional release or 1278 00:46:50,041 --> 00:46:52,250 that could be something psychological. 1279 00:46:53,166 --> 00:46:55,583 But I know of people who have had chronic 1280 00:46:55,583 --> 00:46:57,083 fatigue syndrome, who have had 1281 00:46:57,083 --> 00:47:00,083 significant improvement in symptoms after 1282 00:47:00,083 --> 00:47:01,750 going through something like a conscious 1283 00:47:01,750 --> 00:47:03,958 connected breath experience. 1284 00:47:04,916 --> 00:47:06,958 So, you know, there is that mind body 1285 00:47:06,958 --> 00:47:09,583 element to this as well, which I think is 1286 00:47:09,583 --> 00:47:11,625 a really valid route to explore. 1287 00:47:12,708 --> 00:47:13,958 Yeah, it's definitely, 1288 00:47:15,208 --> 00:47:18,583 I keep on going forward 1289 00:47:18,583 --> 00:47:20,166 and backward on that one. 1290 00:47:20,166 --> 00:47:21,708 I must admit having sort of worked 1291 00:47:21,708 --> 00:47:23,666 through programs like the Gupta program 1292 00:47:23,666 --> 00:47:26,166 myself, and maybe not necessarily having 1293 00:47:26,250 --> 00:47:27,791 seen the results I was after. 1294 00:47:28,875 --> 00:47:32,041 I do wonder if I do think it works. 1295 00:47:32,291 --> 00:47:34,416 I just, I'm not, I don't necessarily 1296 00:47:34,500 --> 00:47:36,625 believe that it's maybe a 1297 00:47:36,625 --> 00:47:38,666 modality that works off the bat. 1298 00:47:38,666 --> 00:47:40,208 I still think you have to get that 1299 00:47:40,208 --> 00:47:44,333 supportive, the supportive basis in first 1300 00:47:44,333 --> 00:47:47,916 before you can sort of maybe start before 1301 00:47:47,916 --> 00:47:49,291 you start to deal with the sort of the 1302 00:47:49,291 --> 00:47:51,041 mind body aspect of it. 1303 00:47:51,333 --> 00:47:52,708 I'm not denouncing it at all. 1304 00:47:52,958 --> 00:47:55,791 I just think that you have to have that 1305 00:47:55,791 --> 00:47:59,583 baseline support and to allow the body to 1306 00:47:59,583 --> 00:48:00,791 then slowly start at 1307 00:48:00,791 --> 00:48:02,041 least at a cellular level. 1308 00:48:02,333 --> 00:48:03,833 And I suppose this gets more into the 1309 00:48:03,833 --> 00:48:05,583 cell dangerous response stuff that we'll 1310 00:48:05,583 --> 00:48:06,375 talk about in a bit. 1311 00:48:06,875 --> 00:48:09,958 After that sort of CDR1, CDR2 state and 1312 00:48:09,958 --> 00:48:12,833 then back into a position where maybe, 1313 00:48:13,291 --> 00:48:17,916 yeah, you can then leverage these more 1314 00:48:17,916 --> 00:48:21,125 broadly speaking, yeah, 1315 00:48:22,041 --> 00:48:24,375 psychosomatic approaches. 1316 00:48:24,958 --> 00:48:25,708 Would you agree with that? 1317 00:48:26,375 --> 00:48:30,791 Yeah, I think it's all of these things 1318 00:48:30,791 --> 00:48:32,625 are quite frankly a bit hit and miss. 1319 00:48:33,416 --> 00:48:35,458 And we don't necessarily have a logical 1320 00:48:35,458 --> 00:48:37,958 explanation as to why it worked for this 1321 00:48:37,958 --> 00:48:39,250 person and didn't for this person. 1322 00:48:39,500 --> 00:48:40,958 And it could be all sorts of different 1323 00:48:40,958 --> 00:48:43,333 little components at the end of the day. 1324 00:48:43,875 --> 00:48:45,958 But I do like what you say, Robert, 1325 00:48:46,208 --> 00:48:48,708 because, partly because, you know, we're 1326 00:48:48,708 --> 00:48:50,458 at a space, I think, where people are 1327 00:48:50,458 --> 00:48:51,791 really pushing their 1328 00:48:51,791 --> 00:48:53,333 bias, you know, their thing. 1329 00:48:53,875 --> 00:48:55,583 And we're at a point where I'm seeing 1330 00:48:55,583 --> 00:48:58,375 more like somatic practitioners, like 1331 00:48:58,375 --> 00:49:00,541 dissing functional medicine, because, oh, 1332 00:49:00,541 --> 00:49:01,916 I had a client come to me and they spend 1333 00:49:01,916 --> 00:49:03,541 thousands on tests and supplements and 1334 00:49:03,541 --> 00:49:04,416 they didn't get better and 1335 00:49:04,416 --> 00:49:05,958 they did my program and did. 1336 00:49:05,958 --> 00:49:07,125 But it's like, that's 1337 00:49:07,125 --> 00:49:08,791 true the other way as well. 1338 00:49:09,666 --> 00:49:11,500 Like it's not, one isn't better. 1339 00:49:11,833 --> 00:49:13,458 And like a multi pronged approach is 1340 00:49:13,458 --> 00:49:15,333 always going to give you the most 1341 00:49:15,458 --> 00:49:16,583 likelihood of success. 1342 00:49:17,250 --> 00:49:18,750 But I think, you know, there's got to be 1343 00:49:18,750 --> 00:49:21,458 those foundations in place, as you say. 1344 00:49:21,458 --> 00:49:23,875 And again, keeping it really basic, this 1345 00:49:23,875 --> 00:49:26,416 won't be relevant to a lot of people. 1346 00:49:26,416 --> 00:49:28,500 But if there are some nutrient 1347 00:49:28,500 --> 00:49:30,541 deficiencies where the cell actually just 1348 00:49:30,541 --> 00:49:32,708 doesn't have the raw ingredients it needs 1349 00:49:32,708 --> 00:49:35,875 to create energy, no amount of journaling 1350 00:49:35,875 --> 00:49:37,708 or breath work or anything is going to 1351 00:49:37,708 --> 00:49:39,500 touch it, because that's just a pure 1352 00:49:39,500 --> 00:49:41,750 physiological, biochemistry, biological, 1353 00:49:41,958 --> 00:49:43,416 whatever root cause that 1354 00:49:43,416 --> 00:49:45,083 needs to be addressed as that. 1355 00:49:46,250 --> 00:49:49,500 Now, there are those cases, and I imagine 1356 00:49:49,500 --> 00:49:51,458 the more we go down the spectrum of 1357 00:49:51,458 --> 00:49:53,375 severity of kind of chronic fatigue 1358 00:49:53,375 --> 00:49:56,500 syndrome and the more multi prongs it 1359 00:49:56,500 --> 00:49:58,208 comes, I think the more likely is that 1360 00:49:58,208 --> 00:50:00,166 there are some ACEs, that there are 1361 00:50:00,166 --> 00:50:02,375 environmental toxins at play that are, 1362 00:50:02,375 --> 00:50:03,833 that is disposed of intestinal 1363 00:50:03,833 --> 00:50:05,208 permeability, because there's been a 1364 00:50:05,208 --> 00:50:08,041 greater collapse in physiology and 1365 00:50:08,041 --> 00:50:09,375 homeostasis, ultimately. 1366 00:50:10,875 --> 00:50:12,666 So yeah, I think again, it comes back to 1367 00:50:12,666 --> 00:50:13,416 where is that person 1368 00:50:13,416 --> 00:50:14,375 within their journey? 1369 00:50:15,833 --> 00:50:17,583 What have they explored, but also just 1370 00:50:17,583 --> 00:50:19,458 how severe is their condition? 1371 00:50:20,125 --> 00:50:22,416 Yeah, no, I really like the way you put 1372 00:50:22,416 --> 00:50:25,208 that because oftentimes you're, you're 1373 00:50:25,208 --> 00:50:27,375 going to onto social media, and you'll be 1374 00:50:27,375 --> 00:50:28,083 struggling with one of 1375 00:50:28,083 --> 00:50:28,833 these sorts of issues. 1376 00:50:29,333 --> 00:50:31,916 And again, just to reuse the same analogy 1377 00:50:31,916 --> 00:50:33,458 from earlier, everybody in the pen there 1378 00:50:33,458 --> 00:50:34,958 on will have the solution. 1379 00:50:35,875 --> 00:50:39,083 And it's oftentimes just a 1380 00:50:39,083 --> 00:50:41,916 fairly narrow viewpoint on this. 1381 00:50:42,125 --> 00:50:43,791 Okay, so I'm just going to go through 1382 00:50:43,791 --> 00:50:45,625 this detox program, which may be great. 1383 00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:48,625 I'm not saying it isn't, but and there's 1384 00:50:48,625 --> 00:50:50,708 there often a lot of claims that it's 1385 00:50:50,708 --> 00:50:52,916 that will solve your problem, or you've 1386 00:50:52,916 --> 00:50:54,625 just got mast cell activation syndrome, 1387 00:50:54,625 --> 00:50:56,916 and all you've got to do is take 1388 00:50:56,916 --> 00:50:59,708 quesitin, crumblin, low histamine diet, 1389 00:51:00,041 --> 00:51:01,541 and Bob's your your be heal. 1390 00:51:02,500 --> 00:51:06,250 And I think, I think these clinicians or 1391 00:51:06,250 --> 00:51:08,000 sometimes just people who've worked 1392 00:51:08,000 --> 00:51:09,333 through themselves, and who are then 1393 00:51:09,333 --> 00:51:11,375 selling a solution, they really mean 1394 00:51:11,375 --> 00:51:12,666 well, they really want help. 1395 00:51:12,666 --> 00:51:15,500 But I think, and I'm not necessarily 1396 00:51:15,500 --> 00:51:17,250 pointing to them and saying that they're 1397 00:51:17,250 --> 00:51:18,041 doing anything wrong. 1398 00:51:18,041 --> 00:51:20,000 But I think people have just got to be 1399 00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:22,125 aware that that that that as you've 1400 00:51:22,125 --> 00:51:24,916 highlighted, excuse me, a multi pronged 1401 00:51:24,916 --> 00:51:26,708 approach is is definitely, 1402 00:51:28,291 --> 00:51:30,000 well, it just makes sense, you're sort of 1403 00:51:30,000 --> 00:51:32,041 the more approaches you have, the more 1404 00:51:32,041 --> 00:51:33,375 likely you are to hit the target. 1405 00:51:34,041 --> 00:51:36,333 And I think if you sort of go in with the 1406 00:51:36,333 --> 00:51:38,500 mentality that this one thing is going 1407 00:51:38,500 --> 00:51:41,250 to, to be your answer, that you're going 1408 00:51:41,250 --> 00:51:44,333 to be disappointed and ultimately, well, 1409 00:51:44,333 --> 00:51:46,250 not ultimately, but potentially end up 1410 00:51:46,250 --> 00:51:48,583 sort of back on the back foot in a sort 1411 00:51:48,583 --> 00:51:52,458 of state of, well, where is me, life's 1412 00:51:52,458 --> 00:51:54,333 I'm just been destined to be miserable 1413 00:51:54,333 --> 00:51:55,375 forever sort of thing. 1414 00:51:57,666 --> 00:51:57,875 Cool. 1415 00:51:58,083 --> 00:51:59,916 I'd love to carry on 1416 00:51:59,916 --> 00:52:01,250 this discussion all day. 1417 00:52:01,833 --> 00:52:04,166 There is a receptor sensitivity part sort 1418 00:52:04,166 --> 00:52:05,416 of really sort of litify 1419 00:52:05,416 --> 00:52:06,333 under me and what I wanted. 1420 00:52:06,625 --> 00:52:09,416 And we think, yeah, I think if we were to 1421 00:52:09,416 --> 00:52:12,375 sort of then discuss things like cytokine 1422 00:52:12,375 --> 00:52:15,833 insensitivity, that would be something 1423 00:52:15,833 --> 00:52:17,583 else to, well, another 1424 00:52:17,625 --> 00:52:18,625 rabbit hole to go down. 1425 00:52:19,333 --> 00:52:22,000 I think if one could figure out how to 1426 00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:25,166 stop various receptors from becoming 1427 00:52:25,166 --> 00:52:26,333 insensitive to any 1428 00:52:26,333 --> 00:52:27,875 input, be it a hormone drug, 1429 00:52:29,041 --> 00:52:30,625 whatever, you'd probably 1430 00:52:30,625 --> 00:52:31,916 be a billionaire overnight. 1431 00:52:32,458 --> 00:52:33,750 But anyway, 1432 00:52:35,833 --> 00:52:37,291 I reckon it's probably a good time to 1433 00:52:37,291 --> 00:52:39,916 move on and maybe talk about some of 1434 00:52:39,916 --> 00:52:43,125 these downstream issues that arise from 1435 00:52:43,125 --> 00:52:44,208 these triggers that 1436 00:52:44,208 --> 00:52:46,291 we've really been discussing. 1437 00:52:47,208 --> 00:52:49,916 But first, I'd just like to the audience 1438 00:52:49,916 --> 00:52:52,958 to understand that there is almost orders 1439 00:52:52,958 --> 00:52:56,291 of operations to how the body enters into 1440 00:52:56,291 --> 00:52:58,000 the sort of aloe static 1441 00:52:58,000 --> 00:52:59,375 state, the state of dysfunction. 1442 00:53:01,708 --> 00:53:04,041 Now, I want to keep this very high level 1443 00:53:04,041 --> 00:53:06,500 and I'd love your feedbacks. 1444 00:53:06,500 --> 00:53:07,666 And if I miss anything, 1445 00:53:08,166 --> 00:53:09,875 please feel free to correct me. 1446 00:53:10,291 --> 00:53:13,000 But the way I see this is that there will 1447 00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:16,208 be a trigger and I want to find another 1448 00:53:16,208 --> 00:53:17,125 word now because that 1449 00:53:17,125 --> 00:53:17,875 one's driving me nuts. 1450 00:53:18,500 --> 00:53:21,166 But that will ultimately drive some level 1451 00:53:21,166 --> 00:53:23,333 of inflammation within the body and 1452 00:53:23,333 --> 00:53:25,541 that's going to be mediated most of the 1453 00:53:25,541 --> 00:53:26,708 time by the immune system. 1454 00:53:27,291 --> 00:53:30,208 A good example of this would be, say you 1455 00:53:30,208 --> 00:53:31,750 have mold as your primary trigger, 1456 00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:33,458 obviously speaking to the audience here, 1457 00:53:33,916 --> 00:53:37,916 and that could then be driving high 1458 00:53:37,916 --> 00:53:40,666 levels of incast of the sort of histamine 1459 00:53:40,666 --> 00:53:41,416 controlled 1460 00:53:41,416 --> 00:53:44,250 immunological response in the body. 1461 00:53:45,041 --> 00:53:47,291 And then consequently downstream of that 1462 00:53:47,291 --> 00:53:51,500 inflammation, you then end up at least 1463 00:53:51,500 --> 00:53:54,291 according to Naviocerri, a rubber doctor, 1464 00:53:54,291 --> 00:53:57,000 rubber Naviocerri, this sort of, this, as 1465 00:53:57,000 --> 00:53:58,333 we alluded to earlier, this 1466 00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:01,708 state where the mitochondria become 1467 00:54:01,708 --> 00:54:02,875 dysfunctional, the cell 1468 00:54:02,875 --> 00:54:04,000 danger response, as it were. 1469 00:54:04,500 --> 00:54:06,625 And then downstream of that, again, 1470 00:54:06,625 --> 00:54:07,875 you're going to end up 1471 00:54:07,875 --> 00:54:10,000 with hormonal dysregulation, 1472 00:54:12,291 --> 00:54:14,250 which is where I think some people tend 1473 00:54:14,250 --> 00:54:17,041 to sort of miss the mark a bit and they 1474 00:54:17,041 --> 00:54:19,875 end up going straight to HRT because on 1475 00:54:19,875 --> 00:54:22,750 paper they have a low testosterone or 1476 00:54:22,750 --> 00:54:25,750 estrogen or whatever when all the results 1477 00:54:25,750 --> 00:54:27,958 are, all the issues are upstream of that 1478 00:54:27,958 --> 00:54:30,041 and that the hormones are just a 1479 00:54:30,041 --> 00:54:31,625 consequence of this sort 1480 00:54:31,625 --> 00:54:34,500 of dysfunctional physiology. 1481 00:54:35,875 --> 00:54:38,375 I know that again was very high level and 1482 00:54:38,375 --> 00:54:41,166 that I miss out a lot of nuance there. 1483 00:54:41,708 --> 00:54:43,041 But again, just from the sort of order 1484 00:54:43,041 --> 00:54:45,291 operation standpoint, do you think that 1485 00:54:45,291 --> 00:54:47,916 sort of sums up how the body sort of 1486 00:54:47,916 --> 00:54:51,375 enters into this state of dysfunction or 1487 00:54:51,375 --> 00:54:53,416 anything or did I get it wrong entirely? 1488 00:54:54,833 --> 00:54:57,625 No, I think that sums up nicely 1489 00:54:57,625 --> 00:54:59,333 ultimately and easy to understand. 1490 00:54:59,791 --> 00:55:02,041 Like, I think, as you said, it's really 1491 00:55:02,041 --> 00:55:05,333 important to stress like the biggest 1492 00:55:05,333 --> 00:55:07,166 trigger or the final trigger. 1493 00:55:07,166 --> 00:55:09,500 So if you just think of an individual 1494 00:55:09,500 --> 00:55:11,541 cell, you know, you've got all of these 1495 00:55:11,541 --> 00:55:14,000 different stimuli ultimately, and the 1496 00:55:14,000 --> 00:55:15,333 cell can maintain its 1497 00:55:15,333 --> 00:55:17,166 health for only so long. 1498 00:55:17,916 --> 00:55:19,666 So going back to this threshold, then you 1499 00:55:19,666 --> 00:55:21,375 get exposed to mold or whatever it may 1500 00:55:21,375 --> 00:55:22,500 be, and yeah, then 1501 00:55:22,500 --> 00:55:23,375 there's just this collapse. 1502 00:55:23,666 --> 00:55:25,541 So I think you summarize that sort of 1503 00:55:25,541 --> 00:55:27,125 dominant sequence nicely. 1504 00:55:27,666 --> 00:55:27,875 Cool. 1505 00:55:28,416 --> 00:55:30,125 I'm glad I got something right today. 1506 00:55:30,125 --> 00:55:31,291 I might actually put in for pay rise. 1507 00:55:33,666 --> 00:55:34,000 All right. 1508 00:55:34,208 --> 00:55:36,375 So I reckon the next logical step would 1509 00:55:36,375 --> 00:55:39,208 be to maybe discuss some of these 1510 00:55:39,208 --> 00:55:43,000 downstream issues of the 1511 00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:44,208 trigger in a little more detail. 1512 00:55:44,625 --> 00:55:47,833 And now I know we could go, there are 1513 00:55:47,833 --> 00:55:48,500 obviously there are 1514 00:55:48,500 --> 00:55:49,583 dozens, hundreds of them. 1515 00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:52,375 But if we were to just touch on the main 1516 00:55:52,416 --> 00:55:55,583 ones, I think that would be helpful. 1517 00:55:56,083 --> 00:55:58,500 And talk about things like mast cell 1518 00:55:58,500 --> 00:56:01,708 activation syndrome, and then maybe dive 1519 00:56:01,708 --> 00:56:04,458 in a little deeper into the CDR side of 1520 00:56:04,458 --> 00:56:05,916 things, the mitochondrial dysfunction, 1521 00:56:06,875 --> 00:56:08,541 would just be helpful to people. 1522 00:56:09,000 --> 00:56:11,416 As I think that these are generally 1523 00:56:11,416 --> 00:56:15,750 issues that affect more people than not 1524 00:56:15,750 --> 00:56:18,250 when it comes to these states. 1525 00:56:21,416 --> 00:56:23,375 And then again, maybe to talk about the 1526 00:56:23,375 --> 00:56:25,625 vagus nerve in a little more detail, just 1527 00:56:25,625 --> 00:56:27,041 to carry on that conversation we had 1528 00:56:27,041 --> 00:56:29,166 earlier from a, from an autonomic 1529 00:56:29,166 --> 00:56:30,541 dysregulation standpoint. 1530 00:56:31,666 --> 00:56:33,041 Are there any more there that you would 1531 00:56:33,041 --> 00:56:34,625 like to maybe hide for 1532 00:56:34,625 --> 00:56:36,041 people listening in or? 1533 00:56:36,958 --> 00:56:38,625 I think the histamine 1534 00:56:38,625 --> 00:56:41,500 piece is, is really big. 1535 00:56:42,458 --> 00:56:44,500 I think it's been really big for a long 1536 00:56:44,500 --> 00:56:46,333 time, but we're only now just starting to 1537 00:56:46,333 --> 00:56:47,791 really appreciate how big it is. 1538 00:56:48,125 --> 00:56:50,375 And COVID has definitely sort 1539 00:56:50,375 --> 00:56:52,375 of been a player within that. 1540 00:56:52,583 --> 00:56:54,000 But you know, histamine and its 1541 00:56:54,000 --> 00:56:57,333 contribution from an IBS, CFS, and 1542 00:56:57,333 --> 00:56:59,208 obviously going through sort of MCAS type 1543 00:56:59,208 --> 00:57:00,750 stuff, like it's, 1544 00:57:00,750 --> 00:57:02,208 it's really significant. 1545 00:57:03,000 --> 00:57:04,958 And I think it is definitely 1546 00:57:04,958 --> 00:57:08,708 underdiagnosed, misdiagnosed, missed by a 1547 00:57:08,708 --> 00:57:10,208 lot of practitioners, including myself 1548 00:57:10,208 --> 00:57:11,250 over the years, obviously. 1549 00:57:11,875 --> 00:57:14,666 Because partly it can manifest in so many 1550 00:57:14,666 --> 00:57:16,333 different ways for different people. 1551 00:57:17,500 --> 00:57:18,416 So in mast cells, 1552 00:57:19,666 --> 00:57:21,875 we have an abundance of mast cells that 1553 00:57:21,875 --> 00:57:23,500 infiltrate the gut lining. 1554 00:57:23,791 --> 00:57:26,583 So in people with IBS, they often have an 1555 00:57:26,583 --> 00:57:28,583 accumulation of mast cells along the 1556 00:57:28,583 --> 00:57:30,666 lining of the gut, which is then 1557 00:57:30,666 --> 00:57:32,875 obviously contributing to some of the 1558 00:57:32,875 --> 00:57:34,541 symptoms they might be experiencing. 1559 00:57:35,666 --> 00:57:39,000 And mast cells can be triggered to 1560 00:57:39,000 --> 00:57:41,000 release their content, which includes 1561 00:57:41,000 --> 00:57:42,458 histamine, but hundreds of other 1562 00:57:42,458 --> 00:57:43,833 mediators, obviously, as well. 1563 00:57:44,083 --> 00:57:45,541 Many are pro-inflammatory. 1564 00:57:46,708 --> 00:57:49,041 Mycotoxins, heavy metals have been shown 1565 00:57:49,041 --> 00:57:51,083 to sort of trigger mast cells. 1566 00:57:51,083 --> 00:57:52,166 Now that's not mast cell. 1567 00:57:52,500 --> 00:57:53,666 I think I'm right in saying from the 1568 00:57:53,666 --> 00:57:55,500 paper, it wasn't mast cell degranulation, 1569 00:57:55,500 --> 00:57:56,708 which we often hear about. 1570 00:57:57,125 --> 00:57:58,708 It was just literally the mast cell being 1571 00:57:58,708 --> 00:57:59,916 triggered to release 1572 00:57:59,916 --> 00:58:01,666 contents from the cell. 1573 00:58:02,958 --> 00:58:04,750 And this can contribute to, you know, 1574 00:58:04,750 --> 00:58:07,125 your classic symptoms, sneezing, 1575 00:58:07,125 --> 00:58:09,500 reactivity, hay fever type stuff. 1576 00:58:09,958 --> 00:58:12,250 But it could be purely digestive related. 1577 00:58:12,583 --> 00:58:13,708 It could be cognitive. 1578 00:58:13,916 --> 00:58:15,000 A brain fog will be a 1579 00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:16,625 really common scenario there. 1580 00:58:17,250 --> 00:58:18,416 It can be related to the 1581 00:58:18,416 --> 00:58:20,208 monthly cycle in females. 1582 00:58:20,500 --> 00:58:23,291 It can be related to 1583 00:58:23,291 --> 00:58:25,000 blood pressure regulation. 1584 00:58:25,458 --> 00:58:27,291 It can be migraines and headaches. 1585 00:58:27,958 --> 00:58:28,166 Blood pressure? 1586 00:58:28,708 --> 00:58:31,125 There is a mechanism around certainly the 1587 00:58:31,125 --> 00:58:32,166 cardiovascular system 1588 00:58:32,166 --> 00:58:33,750 being influenced as well. 1589 00:58:34,833 --> 00:58:35,958 Would that have to do with 1590 00:58:35,958 --> 00:58:37,000 nitric oxide potentially? 1591 00:58:38,041 --> 00:58:39,125 Yes, that would make sense. 1592 00:58:39,625 --> 00:58:41,166 Yeah, at least if nothing else, then I 1593 00:58:41,166 --> 00:58:42,833 imagine nitric oxide at play. 1594 00:58:42,833 --> 00:58:44,083 I'm not sure what the mechanisms are 1595 00:58:44,083 --> 00:58:44,916 there off the top of my head. 1596 00:58:45,791 --> 00:58:47,583 But yeah, I mean, almost most bodily 1597 00:58:47,583 --> 00:58:48,375 systems can be 1598 00:58:48,375 --> 00:58:49,750 influenced at the end of the day. 1599 00:58:51,500 --> 00:58:53,875 Now with IBS, you know, there are studies 1600 00:58:53,875 --> 00:58:55,583 where they've given an over-the-counter 1601 00:58:55,583 --> 00:58:57,750 antihistamine and a subset of people get 1602 00:58:57,750 --> 00:58:59,541 total improvement in their 1603 00:58:59,541 --> 00:59:00,708 gastrointestinal symptoms. 1604 00:59:00,958 --> 00:59:02,958 So that kind of shows you the role that 1605 00:59:02,958 --> 00:59:04,333 it can play within IBS. 1606 00:59:06,458 --> 00:59:08,458 And with histamine, obviously you've got 1607 00:59:09,583 --> 00:59:10,916 exogenous consumption 1608 00:59:10,916 --> 00:59:12,291 from high histamine foods. 1609 00:59:12,583 --> 00:59:15,083 You've got potential production from gut 1610 00:59:15,083 --> 00:59:17,000 bacteria that can produce histamine. 1611 00:59:17,541 --> 00:59:18,916 And then you've got mast cell and 1612 00:59:18,916 --> 00:59:21,000 basophils that can produce histamine and 1613 00:59:21,000 --> 00:59:22,125 they both kind of store 1614 00:59:22,125 --> 00:59:23,333 it within the cytoplasm. 1615 00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:26,458 So you've got endogenous and exogenous 1616 00:59:26,791 --> 00:59:28,166 exposures ultimately. 1617 00:59:28,625 --> 00:59:30,416 And then various environmental toxins, 1618 00:59:30,416 --> 00:59:32,541 like we've mentioned, can trigger the 1619 00:59:32,541 --> 00:59:33,791 mast cell to release that 1620 00:59:33,791 --> 00:59:35,125 histamine that it contains. 1621 00:59:36,416 --> 00:59:37,041 And we've all got, 1622 00:59:38,375 --> 00:59:40,083 remotely familiar with histamines, 1623 00:59:40,291 --> 00:59:41,000 probably heard about the 1624 00:59:41,000 --> 00:59:41,916 whole histamine buckets. 1625 00:59:42,125 --> 00:59:43,166 You know, again, we've got a 1626 00:59:43,166 --> 00:59:44,541 threshold that we can handle. 1627 00:59:44,541 --> 00:59:46,041 And then when that threshold has 1628 00:59:46,041 --> 00:59:47,250 exceeded, we're going to be 1629 00:59:47,250 --> 00:59:48,583 symptomatic fundamentally. 1630 00:59:50,125 --> 00:59:52,458 And there are two primary ways that we 1631 00:59:52,458 --> 00:59:53,500 deal with histamine. 1632 00:59:53,750 --> 00:59:55,500 Sort of the dietary 1633 00:59:55,500 --> 00:59:57,666 source, we have the DAO enzyme. 1634 00:59:58,708 --> 01:00:01,416 So you can supplement DAO to help you 1635 01:00:01,416 --> 01:00:03,916 tolerate dietary histamine ultimately. 1636 01:00:04,166 --> 01:00:06,666 And for some people, it works wonders and 1637 01:00:06,666 --> 01:00:08,208 it diversifies the diet 1638 01:00:08,208 --> 01:00:09,500 again and they're happy as Larry. 1639 01:00:10,500 --> 01:00:11,833 For others, it doesn't work. 1640 01:00:11,833 --> 01:00:13,333 And that's just because their issue 1641 01:00:13,333 --> 01:00:15,333 wasn't a DAO issue, most likely. 1642 01:00:15,750 --> 01:00:17,208 So again, it's just one of the things 1643 01:00:17,208 --> 01:00:18,500 that can be at play there. 1644 01:00:19,083 --> 01:00:20,875 Diamine oxidase being the enzyme that 1645 01:00:20,875 --> 01:00:21,708 brings down histamine. 1646 01:00:21,958 --> 01:00:23,250 Yes, correct. 1647 01:00:23,583 --> 01:00:23,791 Yeah. 1648 01:00:24,875 --> 01:00:25,916 And that's primarily 1649 01:00:25,916 --> 01:00:28,375 dietary or exogenous histamine. 1650 01:00:30,000 --> 01:00:32,166 Now you could have a bacterial overgrowth 1651 01:00:32,166 --> 01:00:34,250 that is driving histamine if those 1652 01:00:34,250 --> 01:00:35,958 bacteria are histamine producers. 1653 01:00:36,291 --> 01:00:38,375 And then we have to go down more of a, 1654 01:00:38,583 --> 01:00:40,500 let's just call it a microbiome 1655 01:00:40,500 --> 01:00:42,791 modulating sort of protocol to deal with 1656 01:00:42,791 --> 01:00:44,500 the overgrowth or at least understand the 1657 01:00:44,500 --> 01:00:46,000 cause of the overgrowth. 1658 01:00:46,916 --> 01:00:48,166 And then you've got the environmental 1659 01:00:48,166 --> 01:00:50,125 triggers of actual mast cells triggering 1660 01:00:50,125 --> 01:00:51,208 histamine release and 1661 01:00:51,208 --> 01:00:52,750 releasing it from that perspective. 1662 01:00:53,416 --> 01:00:55,166 And then there's also the HNMT. 1663 01:00:56,041 --> 01:00:56,958 I was just going to ask. 1664 01:00:57,416 --> 01:00:58,916 And I never, I can't 1665 01:00:58,916 --> 01:00:59,916 remember what it stands for. 1666 01:00:59,916 --> 01:01:00,916 HNMT. 1667 01:01:01,500 --> 01:01:03,708 But that's dealing with kind of more 1668 01:01:03,708 --> 01:01:05,125 endogenous histamine. 1669 01:01:06,083 --> 01:01:10,000 Now both of those enzymes, DAO and HNMT, 1670 01:01:10,791 --> 01:01:12,083 as they all require, 1671 01:01:12,083 --> 01:01:13,291 they have co-factors. 1672 01:01:13,916 --> 01:01:15,250 So there is copper and 1673 01:01:15,250 --> 01:01:17,833 B6 among others for DAO. 1674 01:01:17,833 --> 01:01:18,625 And I think there's zinc 1675 01:01:18,625 --> 01:01:20,916 and B6 for HNMT among others. 1676 01:01:21,708 --> 01:01:25,000 So nutrient deficiencies will contribute 1677 01:01:25,000 --> 01:01:27,541 to kind of your histamine bucket, your 1678 01:01:27,541 --> 01:01:29,291 histamine threshold and how much you're 1679 01:01:29,291 --> 01:01:30,458 dealing with there as well. 1680 01:01:31,250 --> 01:01:34,666 Now DAO can be deteriorated with any 1681 01:01:34,666 --> 01:01:36,708 damage to the gut lining because that's 1682 01:01:36,708 --> 01:01:39,750 its primary place of origin, so to speak. 1683 01:01:40,791 --> 01:01:42,291 So when you do have intestinal 1684 01:01:42,291 --> 01:01:44,916 permeability, AKA leaky guts or gut 1685 01:01:44,916 --> 01:01:47,583 information, it's very likely that DAO 1686 01:01:47,583 --> 01:01:49,458 has been compromised as well. 1687 01:01:51,125 --> 01:01:53,666 And then MCAS is kind of further down the 1688 01:01:53,666 --> 01:01:55,500 spectrum again of severity ultimately. 1689 01:01:55,750 --> 01:01:57,083 So you have histamine intolerance, which 1690 01:01:57,083 --> 01:01:59,708 is often more of a DAO dietary thing, 1691 01:02:00,625 --> 01:02:02,875 moving down to MCAS, where now you've got 1692 01:02:02,875 --> 01:02:05,916 a multi-system, multi-factorial condition 1693 01:02:05,916 --> 01:02:06,541 that can be 1694 01:02:06,541 --> 01:02:08,083 incredibly complex ultimately. 1695 01:02:09,375 --> 01:02:10,750 But we still want to be thinking about 1696 01:02:10,750 --> 01:02:11,708 what is the trigger. 1697 01:02:12,708 --> 01:02:14,583 And that could be the things that we have 1698 01:02:14,583 --> 01:02:16,625 been talking about, infections, toxins, 1699 01:02:17,500 --> 01:02:19,375 trauma, and these sorts of things. 1700 01:02:20,333 --> 01:02:22,625 Yeah, no, that was beautifully put. 1701 01:02:22,875 --> 01:02:23,250 Thank you. 1702 01:02:23,750 --> 01:02:25,875 And it just it really sort of highlights 1703 01:02:25,875 --> 01:02:28,333 the fact that these mast cell issues, 1704 01:02:28,333 --> 01:02:31,958 these histamine issues are a symptom of a 1705 01:02:31,958 --> 01:02:33,833 bigger issue than not the issue in 1706 01:02:33,833 --> 01:02:35,625 themselves, which again, I think is what 1707 01:02:35,833 --> 01:02:38,125 where a lot of people sort of scrolling 1708 01:02:38,125 --> 01:02:40,166 through social media sort of tend to sort 1709 01:02:40,166 --> 01:02:42,750 of maybe make a mistake, they sort of see 1710 01:02:42,750 --> 01:02:44,625 their issue as a histamine issue. 1711 01:02:45,583 --> 01:02:48,250 The histamine is a symptom of something 1712 01:02:48,250 --> 01:02:49,500 else that's going on. 1713 01:02:49,791 --> 01:02:53,458 And just by maybe just taking your 1714 01:02:53,458 --> 01:02:55,750 chromoly and quercetin or whatever, you 1715 01:02:55,750 --> 01:02:58,750 aren't actually, maybe you're controlling 1716 01:02:58,750 --> 01:03:01,083 some of the symptoms, but you're not 1717 01:03:01,083 --> 01:03:02,833 actually dealing with the picture. 1718 01:03:03,125 --> 01:03:07,083 It's definitely a very sort of, I don't 1719 01:03:07,083 --> 01:03:08,458 want to say reductionist because that has 1720 01:03:08,458 --> 01:03:09,583 a lot of negative connotations. 1721 01:03:10,000 --> 01:03:12,500 But I think, yeah, it's just sort of 1722 01:03:12,500 --> 01:03:14,208 cherry picking one specific 1723 01:03:14,208 --> 01:03:16,500 pathway or one specific issue. 1724 01:03:17,000 --> 01:03:19,000 And then sort of saying, okay, right, 1725 01:03:19,000 --> 01:03:20,041 that's my issue and then 1726 01:03:20,041 --> 01:03:21,166 sort of ignoring the rest. 1727 01:03:22,291 --> 01:03:24,041 The enzyme that you were thinking about, 1728 01:03:24,041 --> 01:03:25,000 by the way, was histamine 1729 01:03:25,000 --> 01:03:26,666 N-methyltransferase, I believe. 1730 01:03:27,333 --> 01:03:27,500 Thank you. 1731 01:03:27,500 --> 01:03:28,416 I could be wrong. 1732 01:03:29,583 --> 01:03:32,833 I've been going through my genetics a 1733 01:03:32,833 --> 01:03:34,541 little bit, trying to sort of remember 1734 01:03:34,541 --> 01:03:35,625 some of what I learnt in 1735 01:03:35,625 --> 01:03:37,500 uni, which was a long time ago. 1736 01:03:38,208 --> 01:03:41,125 But anyway, but yeah, I think histamine, 1737 01:03:41,125 --> 01:03:43,791 it definitely is an issue for a lot of 1738 01:03:43,791 --> 01:03:47,541 people, especially as you alluded to, it 1739 01:03:47,541 --> 01:03:49,250 can be triggered by so many things. 1740 01:03:49,583 --> 01:03:52,250 And people who are trying to maybe do the 1741 01:03:52,250 --> 01:03:55,416 right thing by detoxing are oftentimes 1742 01:03:55,416 --> 01:03:58,083 going to sort of run into this issue of 1743 01:03:58,083 --> 01:03:59,291 excess histamine release. 1744 01:04:01,000 --> 01:04:02,875 People getting into a sauna for too long, 1745 01:04:02,875 --> 01:04:05,958 because that's great maybe for helping to 1746 01:04:05,958 --> 01:04:07,541 liberate some heavy metals, that's great. 1747 01:04:08,000 --> 01:04:10,375 But heat is going to drive up histamine 1748 01:04:14,083 --> 01:04:17,375 release or a woman who sort of maybe jump 1749 01:04:17,375 --> 01:04:20,458 onto HRT because they think that this is 1750 01:04:20,458 --> 01:04:22,041 their solution and then all of a sudden 1751 01:04:22,041 --> 01:04:24,166 they're taking more estrogen and that's 1752 01:04:24,166 --> 01:04:25,125 going to sort of drive 1753 01:04:25,125 --> 01:04:26,791 up histamine release. 1754 01:04:27,958 --> 01:04:30,750 So yeah, it really is an 1755 01:04:30,750 --> 01:04:33,166 issue for so many people. 1756 01:04:33,458 --> 01:04:37,708 And the fact that yeah, it's, and I think 1757 01:04:37,708 --> 01:04:40,000 that's again where COVID is a bit of a 1758 01:04:40,000 --> 01:04:41,375 silver lining, because it's just brought 1759 01:04:41,375 --> 01:04:44,166 this to the forefront, especially when 1760 01:04:44,166 --> 01:04:45,916 you start looking through the lens, 1761 01:04:46,750 --> 01:04:48,333 through the lens of long COVID. 1762 01:04:50,166 --> 01:04:51,458 Now I'm sure we could 1763 01:04:51,458 --> 01:04:53,083 discuss that all day. 1764 01:04:53,500 --> 01:04:53,708 And 1765 01:04:54,708 --> 01:04:57,375 yeah, I had a lovely podcast with Dr. 1766 01:04:57,375 --> 01:04:58,250 Tina Moore, I'm sure 1767 01:04:58,250 --> 01:04:58,791 you're familiar with. 1768 01:04:58,958 --> 01:04:59,416 Yes. 1769 01:05:00,500 --> 01:05:02,166 For anyone who is listening who wants to 1770 01:05:02,166 --> 01:05:05,416 dive down the histamine rabbit hole, I 1771 01:05:05,416 --> 01:05:07,583 highly encourage you to listen to that 1772 01:05:07,583 --> 01:05:08,958 podcast that we did or 1773 01:05:08,958 --> 01:05:10,416 any podcast that she's done. 1774 01:05:10,416 --> 01:05:12,375 She's done a number of 1775 01:05:12,458 --> 01:05:15,500 podcasts recently, including Dr. 1776 01:05:15,750 --> 01:05:18,750 John something. 1777 01:05:19,375 --> 01:05:22,041 Yeah, that escaped me out. 1778 01:05:22,250 --> 01:05:23,333 We'll link it in the show notes, but 1779 01:05:23,333 --> 01:05:25,458 she's an excellent source thereof. 1780 01:05:27,833 --> 01:05:30,625 Let's discuss the mitochondrial piece. 1781 01:05:31,833 --> 01:05:34,125 CDO, again, we've done a deep dive into 1782 01:05:34,125 --> 01:05:36,625 this, but from a high level, I think it's 1783 01:05:36,625 --> 01:05:40,125 important to know why mitochondria sort 1784 01:05:40,125 --> 01:05:43,791 of break and then maybe we'll discuss 1785 01:05:43,791 --> 01:05:46,083 what we can do about it a little later on 1786 01:05:46,083 --> 01:05:47,375 in the episode when we start to put 1787 01:05:47,375 --> 01:05:47,916 together this 1788 01:05:47,916 --> 01:05:49,416 framework for folks to follow. 1789 01:05:50,083 --> 01:05:53,750 But from your vantage point anyway, how 1790 01:05:53,750 --> 01:05:55,041 do you see 1791 01:05:55,041 --> 01:05:57,416 mitochondrial dysfunction occurring? 1792 01:05:57,416 --> 01:05:59,500 And then where do you see this idea of 1793 01:05:59,500 --> 01:06:01,125 the cell danger response fitting in? 1794 01:06:02,125 --> 01:06:05,916 So on mitochondria, I read recently, the 1795 01:06:05,916 --> 01:06:07,708 canaries in the coal mine 1796 01:06:07,708 --> 01:06:09,250 from a cellular perspective. 1797 01:06:09,916 --> 01:06:13,083 So as many of us as your listeners would 1798 01:06:13,083 --> 01:06:14,500 have probably heard, they're an ancient 1799 01:06:14,500 --> 01:06:18,500 bacteria that sort of co-evolved with an 1800 01:06:18,500 --> 01:06:21,666 archaea, I think it was, wasn't it? 1801 01:06:21,875 --> 01:06:23,708 Millions and millions of years ago. 1802 01:06:24,000 --> 01:06:25,541 So this is why there's the antibiotic 1803 01:06:25,541 --> 01:06:27,125 piece with mitochondria. 1804 01:06:27,125 --> 01:06:28,833 But mitochondria are not just the 1805 01:06:28,833 --> 01:06:30,000 powerhouses of the cell 1806 01:06:30,000 --> 01:06:31,791 that often we hear them being. 1807 01:06:32,166 --> 01:06:34,083 They are that, but they are so much more. 1808 01:06:34,083 --> 01:06:36,833 I mean, they regulate calcium sort of 1809 01:06:36,833 --> 01:06:39,458 regulation and they have many other roles 1810 01:06:39,458 --> 01:06:42,583 in including relation to the production 1811 01:06:42,583 --> 01:06:43,750 of steroid hormones, 1812 01:06:44,875 --> 01:06:47,625 cholesterol, among other things as well. 1813 01:06:48,666 --> 01:06:50,291 But mitochondrial dysfunction, you know, 1814 01:06:50,291 --> 01:06:52,000 the textbook thing is the manifestation 1815 01:06:52,000 --> 01:06:54,416 is most likely going to be among other 1816 01:06:54,416 --> 01:06:56,291 things, fatigue because of their role, 1817 01:06:56,291 --> 01:06:57,666 obviously, in energy production. 1818 01:06:58,791 --> 01:07:02,083 But mitochondria can be damaged. 1819 01:07:02,333 --> 01:07:04,000 We can develop mitochondrial dysfunction 1820 01:07:04,000 --> 01:07:06,041 because of nutrient deficiencies, because 1821 01:07:06,041 --> 01:07:08,291 of dysbiosis and leaky gut, you know, 1822 01:07:08,291 --> 01:07:10,708 these lipopolysaccharides or endotoxins 1823 01:07:10,708 --> 01:07:13,666 can have an impact on mitochondrial 1824 01:07:13,666 --> 01:07:14,875 function, apparently. 1825 01:07:15,916 --> 01:07:17,916 Butrate, you know, a metabolite, healthy, 1826 01:07:17,916 --> 01:07:19,958 good, important metabolite from some of 1827 01:07:19,958 --> 01:07:20,791 our gut bacteria 1828 01:07:20,791 --> 01:07:23,625 supports mitochondrial function. 1829 01:07:24,541 --> 01:07:26,500 We've got xenobiotics and various 1830 01:07:26,500 --> 01:07:28,666 environmental chemicals that can inhibit 1831 01:07:28,833 --> 01:07:30,000 mitochondrial function. 1832 01:07:32,250 --> 01:07:33,875 What else have we got that impacts 1833 01:07:33,875 --> 01:07:34,875 mitochondrial function? 1834 01:07:35,208 --> 01:07:37,291 I mean, all of the typical things, 1835 01:07:37,291 --> 01:07:40,875 inflammation, mycotoxins, they're all 1836 01:07:40,875 --> 01:07:42,708 going to be impacting it ultimately. 1837 01:07:44,000 --> 01:07:45,375 So again, mitochondrial dysfunction, 1838 01:07:45,791 --> 01:07:48,208 there's this kind of camp that think 1839 01:07:48,208 --> 01:07:49,958 mitochondrial dysfunction is, you know, 1840 01:07:50,250 --> 01:07:52,458 the cure, you know, the cause of 1841 01:07:52,458 --> 01:07:53,500 everything and therefore the cure. 1842 01:07:54,083 --> 01:07:55,458 Because if you can get healthy 1843 01:07:55,458 --> 01:07:57,208 mitochondria, you can get a healthy cell. 1844 01:07:57,208 --> 01:07:57,875 And if you have a healthy 1845 01:07:57,875 --> 01:07:59,458 cell, you have a healthy organ. 1846 01:07:59,458 --> 01:08:00,000 If you have a healthy 1847 01:08:00,000 --> 01:08:01,500 organ, you have a healthy system. 1848 01:08:02,000 --> 01:08:02,833 If you have a healthy system, 1849 01:08:02,833 --> 01:08:04,083 you have a healthy organism. 1850 01:08:05,583 --> 01:08:07,375 But as you kind of said, Robert, you 1851 01:08:07,375 --> 01:08:08,916 know, mitochondrial dysfunction is 1852 01:08:08,916 --> 01:08:11,041 downstream of these sorts of things. 1853 01:08:11,041 --> 01:08:12,333 And therefore, we still have to 1854 01:08:12,333 --> 01:08:15,041 constantly ask the why until we feel 1855 01:08:15,041 --> 01:08:18,666 we've actually got to the answer, 1856 01:08:19,000 --> 01:08:20,000 ultimately, like what is the most 1857 01:08:20,000 --> 01:08:21,958 upstream thing we can get to? 1858 01:08:21,958 --> 01:08:22,791 And that is the thing that 1859 01:08:22,791 --> 01:08:24,375 we probably need to focus on. 1860 01:08:24,541 --> 01:08:25,416 So is it nutrients? 1861 01:08:25,916 --> 01:08:27,291 It could be the guts from a 1862 01:08:27,291 --> 01:08:28,291 mitochondrial perspective. 1863 01:08:28,666 --> 01:08:29,583 Is it some kind of 1864 01:08:29,583 --> 01:08:31,333 environmental chemical or toxin? 1865 01:08:32,083 --> 01:08:32,875 Is it trauma? 1866 01:08:33,375 --> 01:08:35,000 There's a study that was looking at 1867 01:08:35,000 --> 01:08:36,208 adverse childhood events. 1868 01:08:36,500 --> 01:08:38,625 And, you know, it's been a long time 1869 01:08:38,625 --> 01:08:40,333 since I read it, but the takeaway was 1870 01:08:40,333 --> 01:08:42,416 ultimately that it can contribute to 1871 01:08:42,416 --> 01:08:43,250 reduced ATP 1872 01:08:43,250 --> 01:08:44,958 production within mitochondria. 1873 01:08:45,458 --> 01:08:46,958 So one of the sort of almost mechanisms 1874 01:08:46,958 --> 01:08:50,333 between early childhood trauma and 1875 01:08:50,625 --> 01:08:53,791 diseases later in life could be related 1876 01:08:53,791 --> 01:08:55,791 to mitochondria dysfunction. 1877 01:08:56,625 --> 01:08:58,208 And essentially, that person just being 1878 01:08:58,208 --> 01:09:00,916 less resilient as a result on 1879 01:09:00,916 --> 01:09:02,875 a physical level, so to speak. 1880 01:09:05,166 --> 01:09:06,458 And then obviously, mitochondria 1881 01:09:06,458 --> 01:09:08,333 dysfunction, you would have thought, will 1882 01:09:08,333 --> 01:09:11,500 manifest in certain organs first the most 1883 01:09:11,500 --> 01:09:12,958 energy dependent organs. 1884 01:09:13,541 --> 01:09:15,625 So hearts, liver, kidneys, gut lining. 1885 01:09:16,208 --> 01:09:17,375 And we've already mentioned how 1886 01:09:17,375 --> 01:09:19,208 mitochondria have a big role to play 1887 01:09:19,208 --> 01:09:21,333 within maintaining a healthy gut 1888 01:09:21,333 --> 01:09:23,083 microbiome and a healthy gut lining. 1889 01:09:23,916 --> 01:09:27,791 So again, are you is the glutamine and 1890 01:09:27,791 --> 01:09:29,708 zinc carnosine really going to fix the 1891 01:09:29,708 --> 01:09:31,416 leaky gut if there's some mitochondrial 1892 01:09:31,416 --> 01:09:32,583 dysfunction, which is 1893 01:09:32,583 --> 01:09:34,125 actually upstream of that? 1894 01:09:36,041 --> 01:09:38,041 So yeah, I think mitochondria are really 1895 01:09:38,041 --> 01:09:40,416 important piece of the puzzle, but it's 1896 01:09:40,416 --> 01:09:42,500 just important that we don't do what you 1897 01:09:42,500 --> 01:09:43,750 were saying, Robert, which is, you know, 1898 01:09:44,000 --> 01:09:45,666 along the lines of take your quercetin 1899 01:09:45,666 --> 01:09:47,375 and think that you've kind 1900 01:09:47,375 --> 01:09:48,666 of dealt with it ultimately. 1901 01:09:48,958 --> 01:09:51,041 So don't take your CoQ10 or whatever it 1902 01:09:51,041 --> 01:09:52,083 may be and think that 1903 01:09:52,083 --> 01:09:52,958 you've dealt with it. 1904 01:09:53,375 --> 01:09:55,125 And within the cell danger response, you 1905 01:09:55,125 --> 01:09:57,208 know, one of the many changes that 1906 01:09:57,208 --> 01:10:00,375 happens is the cell membrane 1907 01:10:00,375 --> 01:10:02,125 obviously becomes more rigid. 1908 01:10:02,583 --> 01:10:04,625 So the cell membrane, I always remember 1909 01:10:04,625 --> 01:10:06,375 one of my lecturers and the masters kind 1910 01:10:06,375 --> 01:10:08,416 of really emphasizing the cell membrane. 1911 01:10:09,041 --> 01:10:10,375 It is the brain of the cell. 1912 01:10:10,375 --> 01:10:12,166 The cell membrane is so important for 1913 01:10:12,166 --> 01:10:13,000 cellular function, 1914 01:10:13,541 --> 01:10:14,541 and this becomes rigid. 1915 01:10:14,791 --> 01:10:16,416 So less good stuff gets in, less bad 1916 01:10:16,416 --> 01:10:18,750 stuff gets out, and it's going into that 1917 01:10:18,750 --> 01:10:19,875 sort of hibernation or 1918 01:10:19,875 --> 01:10:22,000 locked down state to survive. 1919 01:10:23,458 --> 01:10:24,666 And that's where I guess, you know, 1920 01:10:24,666 --> 01:10:26,291 things like your phospholipid replacement 1921 01:10:26,291 --> 01:10:28,625 therapy type protocols have some value 1922 01:10:28,625 --> 01:10:30,250 and some people respond well to. 1923 01:10:31,458 --> 01:10:32,666 So yeah, I'll pause there. 1924 01:10:33,791 --> 01:10:36,375 No, again, that was that was perfect. 1925 01:10:36,375 --> 01:10:37,208 Thank you very much. 1926 01:10:37,208 --> 01:10:38,791 And again, it just sort of points to the 1927 01:10:38,791 --> 01:10:41,500 fact that just dealing with the basics, 1928 01:10:41,500 --> 01:10:43,041 which I know we'll touch on a bit getting 1929 01:10:43,041 --> 01:10:47,291 in your essential nutrients, it is so 1930 01:10:47,291 --> 01:10:49,041 important and almost taking this sort of 1931 01:10:49,291 --> 01:10:53,541 orthomolecular approach, maybe as a first 1932 01:10:53,541 --> 01:10:58,583 stop is probably for the most part the 1933 01:10:58,583 --> 01:11:01,125 best place to start for a lot of people. 1934 01:11:01,583 --> 01:11:04,083 However, we'll get to that in a bit. 1935 01:11:04,666 --> 01:11:06,708 I'd love it if we could also just quickly 1936 01:11:06,708 --> 01:11:09,416 sort of backtrack slightly and then talk 1937 01:11:09,416 --> 01:11:12,708 a little more about the nervous system 1938 01:11:12,708 --> 01:11:14,333 again, but this time from the standpoint 1939 01:11:14,333 --> 01:11:19,125 of the vagus nerve, because I think, I 1940 01:11:19,125 --> 01:11:21,500 mean, this is quite a trigger, but it's 1941 01:11:21,500 --> 01:11:28,166 also oftentimes a downstream result of a 1942 01:11:28,166 --> 01:11:29,041 lot of this dysfunction. 1943 01:11:30,541 --> 01:11:32,291 And there's a lot of chicken and egg 1944 01:11:32,291 --> 01:11:34,541 going on with the vagus nerve, and the 1945 01:11:34,541 --> 01:11:38,208 more the vagus nerve gets more 1946 01:11:38,208 --> 01:11:39,458 dysregulation that happens 1947 01:11:39,458 --> 01:11:41,083 with regards to the vagus nerve, 1948 01:11:42,083 --> 01:11:44,333 the more oftentimes an individual is 1949 01:11:44,333 --> 01:11:45,291 going to end up in a sort of 1950 01:11:45,291 --> 01:11:47,291 sympathetically dominant state, which 1951 01:11:47,291 --> 01:11:49,625 actually is going to sort of then trigger 1952 01:11:49,625 --> 01:11:51,250 that some of at least, 1953 01:11:52,333 --> 01:11:54,791 yeah, some of the CDR type stuff, some of 1954 01:11:54,791 --> 01:11:56,500 this mitochondrial dysfunction as well, 1955 01:11:57,083 --> 01:12:00,416 just by way of increasing the release of 1956 01:12:00,416 --> 01:12:01,416 catecholamines, all 1957 01:12:01,416 --> 01:12:02,333 these stress hormones. 1958 01:12:04,208 --> 01:12:06,333 Now, there's a lot to be said about the 1959 01:12:06,333 --> 01:12:08,333 vagus nerve, especially around polyvagal 1960 01:12:08,333 --> 01:12:10,666 theory, which I believe I'm right in 1961 01:12:10,666 --> 01:12:12,166 saying it, you're fairly well-read and 1962 01:12:12,166 --> 01:12:14,291 definitely more so than I am. 1963 01:12:15,250 --> 01:12:18,291 Can we have a quick discussion about that 1964 01:12:18,291 --> 01:12:20,208 and where that fits into the picture? 1965 01:12:21,375 --> 01:12:23,083 Yeah, it's been a while since I've talked 1966 01:12:23,083 --> 01:12:25,291 about this, so feel free 1967 01:12:25,291 --> 01:12:26,541 to jump in and help me here. 1968 01:12:26,541 --> 01:12:28,791 But, you know, the vagus nerve obviously, 1969 01:12:30,125 --> 01:12:32,166 in Latin, I think it's wandering, so most 1970 01:12:32,166 --> 01:12:34,041 people can picture like the roots of a 1971 01:12:34,041 --> 01:12:36,541 tree, you've got branches of this nerve 1972 01:12:36,541 --> 01:12:37,416 innovating all the 1973 01:12:37,416 --> 01:12:38,750 different organs in the body. 1974 01:12:39,333 --> 01:12:42,000 And the polyvagal theory put really 1975 01:12:42,000 --> 01:12:44,541 simply is this idea that there is a 1976 01:12:44,541 --> 01:12:47,291 hierarchy to the vagus nerve. 1977 01:12:48,333 --> 01:12:51,041 And we have, let's think about this, we 1978 01:12:51,041 --> 01:12:53,541 have the ventral vagal and the dorsal 1979 01:12:53,541 --> 01:12:57,500 vagal, which are parts of this kind of 1980 01:12:57,500 --> 01:12:58,625 hierarchy, ultimately. 1981 01:12:58,958 --> 01:13:00,666 And I think the ventral vagal, correct me 1982 01:13:00,666 --> 01:13:01,625 if I'm wrong here, Robert, but the 1983 01:13:01,625 --> 01:13:03,958 ventral vagal is kind of the social 1984 01:13:03,958 --> 01:13:08,958 safety component of this, and the dorsal 1985 01:13:08,958 --> 01:13:11,500 vagal is kind of the shutdown ultimately. 1986 01:13:12,083 --> 01:13:13,958 And we can definitely see people who have 1987 01:13:13,958 --> 01:13:16,208 gone down into this kind of shutdown 1988 01:13:16,208 --> 01:13:18,125 vagus nerve response. 1989 01:13:18,125 --> 01:13:19,916 You know, you could almost think about it 1990 01:13:19,916 --> 01:13:21,625 as the freeze or this 1991 01:13:21,625 --> 01:13:23,875 hibernation type state, ultimately. 1992 01:13:24,791 --> 01:13:27,125 And the key theme with the pole polyvagal 1993 01:13:27,125 --> 01:13:28,666 theory from my perspective, again, 1994 01:13:28,666 --> 01:13:30,416 keeping this quite high level is the 1995 01:13:30,416 --> 01:13:31,458 theme around safety. 1996 01:13:32,458 --> 01:13:37,125 If we don't feel safe, we can see a shift 1997 01:13:37,125 --> 01:13:39,208 in vagus nerve, and that's obviously 1998 01:13:39,208 --> 01:13:40,875 going to manifest from a behavioral 1999 01:13:40,875 --> 01:13:42,291 perspective, but also 2000 01:13:42,291 --> 01:13:43,750 from a cellular perspective. 2001 01:13:44,625 --> 01:13:46,333 And there's this really, I think, 2002 01:13:46,541 --> 01:13:50,291 sensitive sort of topic around, you know, 2003 01:13:50,291 --> 01:13:52,083 a lot of people struggling with chronic 2004 01:13:52,083 --> 01:13:55,833 complex illnesses retreat for various 2005 01:13:55,833 --> 01:13:57,708 reasons, both just because of the 2006 01:13:57,833 --> 01:13:59,958 debilitating nature of the symptoms, but 2007 01:13:59,958 --> 01:14:01,791 also because sometimes the comments they 2008 01:14:01,791 --> 01:14:03,708 receive from friends or family, you look 2009 01:14:03,708 --> 01:14:05,250 fine, these sorts of things. 2010 01:14:06,125 --> 01:14:08,541 And, you know, they feel, you know, gut 2011 01:14:08,541 --> 01:14:10,583 stuff bloated, who wants to go out and 2012 01:14:10,583 --> 01:14:12,250 have fun and socialize when you feel 2013 01:14:12,250 --> 01:14:13,708 really bloated, for example. 2014 01:14:13,958 --> 01:14:14,500 So there's lots of 2015 01:14:14,500 --> 01:14:15,958 different things that come into it. 2016 01:14:16,333 --> 01:14:19,666 The problem is, we all know now know the 2017 01:14:19,666 --> 01:14:22,041 importance of our social 2018 01:14:22,041 --> 01:14:24,500 lives in regards to healing. 2019 01:14:24,500 --> 01:14:27,125 So there's this kind of really sensitive 2020 01:14:27,125 --> 01:14:29,166 conversation sometimes that has to be had 2021 01:14:29,166 --> 01:14:33,125 around balancing the retreat, which 2022 01:14:33,291 --> 01:14:35,291 totally makes sense and is understandable 2023 01:14:35,291 --> 01:14:38,583 with actually engaging in life as a way 2024 01:14:38,583 --> 01:14:41,250 to support the healing process as well. 2025 01:14:42,375 --> 01:14:43,791 And that's where I think, you know, the 2026 01:14:43,791 --> 01:14:45,583 polyvagal theory can be really helpful 2027 01:14:45,583 --> 01:14:47,041 with this theme around safety and 2028 01:14:47,041 --> 01:14:48,583 understanding where 2029 01:14:48,583 --> 01:14:50,000 someone is at within it. 2030 01:14:50,000 --> 01:14:52,333 I know people that specialize in this 2031 01:14:52,333 --> 01:14:55,000 will even talk about, dependent on where 2032 01:14:55,000 --> 01:14:57,791 you are within that hierarchy, that will 2033 01:14:57,791 --> 01:15:00,750 very much influence the most appropriate 2034 01:15:00,750 --> 01:15:02,958 form of exercise for you, for example. 2035 01:15:03,916 --> 01:15:05,958 So it can be very helpful 2036 01:15:05,958 --> 01:15:08,583 on a clinical level as well. 2037 01:15:09,875 --> 01:15:11,166 So, yes, that's kind of 2038 01:15:11,166 --> 01:15:12,416 what comes to mind immediately. 2039 01:15:13,500 --> 01:15:14,291 That's perfect. 2040 01:15:14,500 --> 01:15:14,791 Thank you. 2041 01:15:15,000 --> 01:15:17,083 And again, it just sort of really works 2042 01:15:17,083 --> 01:15:20,750 to complete that picture of everything 2043 01:15:20,750 --> 01:15:22,208 that we've discussed up until now. 2044 01:15:22,458 --> 01:15:24,500 And again, just to sort of hop on about 2045 01:15:24,500 --> 01:15:27,458 this again, I really encourage the 2046 01:15:27,458 --> 01:15:29,208 audience to sort of look at their 2047 01:15:29,208 --> 01:15:32,000 emotional health when it comes to sort of 2048 01:15:32,000 --> 01:15:35,166 starting to try and work your way through 2049 01:15:35,166 --> 01:15:36,000 these sorts of issues 2050 01:15:36,000 --> 01:15:39,458 because it really cannot be, 2051 01:15:41,041 --> 01:15:43,791 and what's the word, it can't be sort of 2052 01:15:43,791 --> 01:15:46,791 downplayed as to its importance, how 2053 01:15:46,791 --> 01:15:48,708 important the nervous system is in 2054 01:15:48,708 --> 01:15:51,208 regulating the wrist, the body, in 2055 01:15:51,208 --> 01:15:53,375 regulating how cells communicate. 2056 01:15:54,333 --> 01:15:55,708 Yeah, and just to touch on that, you 2057 01:15:55,708 --> 01:15:58,000 know, maybe branched with that is the 2058 01:15:58,000 --> 01:16:00,458 whole concept of psychoneuroimmunology, 2059 01:16:00,666 --> 01:16:03,541 you know, the mind, the nervous system 2060 01:16:03,541 --> 01:16:04,500 and the immune system. 2061 01:16:04,500 --> 01:16:07,000 These are deeply interconnected systems. 2062 01:16:07,375 --> 01:16:09,083 So we absolutely have to be thinking 2063 01:16:09,083 --> 01:16:11,333 about our psyche when we're thinking 2064 01:16:11,333 --> 01:16:13,083 about the states of our nervous system 2065 01:16:13,083 --> 01:16:14,666 and our immune system. 2066 01:16:14,666 --> 01:16:16,458 And we all know the immune system is so 2067 01:16:16,458 --> 01:16:18,000 interconnected with everything that we're 2068 01:16:18,000 --> 01:16:19,166 kind of talking about here. 2069 01:16:19,708 --> 01:16:21,666 So if you wanted like the science, 2070 01:16:21,958 --> 01:16:23,833 polyvagal theory, yes, but also this 2071 01:16:23,833 --> 01:16:26,875 psycho neuroimmunology is 2072 01:16:26,875 --> 01:16:28,500 a really fascinating area. 2073 01:16:29,125 --> 01:16:30,541 So, you know, it's little practices, 2074 01:16:30,791 --> 01:16:33,083 giving yourself 10 minutes a day, find 2075 01:16:33,083 --> 01:16:35,000 yourself a little grounding exercise that 2076 01:16:35,000 --> 01:16:36,666 could just be coming to the breath and 2077 01:16:36,666 --> 01:16:39,166 doing some diaphragmatic breathing, feel 2078 01:16:39,166 --> 01:16:40,750 your feet on the floor, feel your 2079 01:16:40,750 --> 01:16:42,791 buttocks on the chair, kind of get 2080 01:16:42,791 --> 01:16:44,625 grounded, get censored as much as you 2081 01:16:44,625 --> 01:16:47,458 can, and do a little bit of journaling, 2082 01:16:47,458 --> 01:16:49,083 find some prompts, even if it's using 2083 01:16:49,083 --> 01:16:50,666 chat GPT, to ask for 2084 01:16:50,666 --> 01:16:51,666 some journaling prompts. 2085 01:16:51,916 --> 01:16:53,125 Like there's lots of ways that we could 2086 01:16:53,125 --> 01:16:56,000 go about that now, but I think it's so 2087 01:16:56,000 --> 01:16:57,833 helpful because, you know, it's going to 2088 01:16:57,833 --> 01:17:00,583 be arguably, I think for a lot of us, you 2089 01:17:00,583 --> 01:17:02,000 know, the safest environment. 2090 01:17:02,375 --> 01:17:04,375 We're on our own, we're journaling, no 2091 01:17:04,375 --> 01:17:05,416 one's going to read it, hear 2092 01:17:05,416 --> 01:17:06,958 it, we can burn it afterwards. 2093 01:17:07,375 --> 01:17:09,166 And that can be quite a therapeutic sort 2094 01:17:09,166 --> 01:17:11,083 of ritual to do as well, where you're 2095 01:17:11,083 --> 01:17:13,375 literally kind of releasing that back 2096 01:17:13,375 --> 01:17:15,958 into sort of the atmosphere ultimately. 2097 01:17:16,541 --> 01:17:18,666 But I think those little habits where 2098 01:17:18,666 --> 01:17:20,958 there's a bit of self-inquiry can be 2099 01:17:20,958 --> 01:17:23,250 incredibly helpful to help us understand 2100 01:17:23,250 --> 01:17:26,291 ourselves, which is part of I think the 2101 01:17:26,291 --> 01:17:27,500 healing process ultimately. 2102 01:17:28,500 --> 01:17:29,625 Yeah, no, it definitely is. 2103 01:17:29,625 --> 01:17:31,083 And I love the fact that you touched on 2104 01:17:31,083 --> 01:17:33,000 the psychoneuroimmunology. 2105 01:17:34,125 --> 01:17:34,416 Dr. 2106 01:17:34,416 --> 01:17:36,625 Leo Primrook is an absolute wizard. 2107 01:17:36,625 --> 01:17:38,291 And I've got a friend who's going through 2108 01:17:38,291 --> 01:17:40,583 his course at the moment, and she's 2109 01:17:40,583 --> 01:17:42,708 shared her notes with me. 2110 01:17:42,708 --> 01:17:44,000 I won't mention her in case she gets, 2111 01:17:44,708 --> 01:17:45,500 somebody's listening. 2112 01:17:46,250 --> 01:17:48,333 But yeah, no, I've been going through 2113 01:17:48,333 --> 01:17:49,208 some of the coursework. 2114 01:17:49,541 --> 01:17:52,125 And it's, yeah, no, it's everything that 2115 01:17:52,125 --> 01:17:53,125 you've just described. 2116 01:17:53,500 --> 01:17:56,416 He really sort of gets 2117 01:17:56,416 --> 01:17:58,291 this properly nailed down. 2118 01:17:58,291 --> 01:18:00,416 And anyone who really, really wants to 2119 01:18:00,416 --> 01:18:02,083 deep dive into this side of it, you 2120 01:18:02,083 --> 01:18:03,375 definitely have a look at 2121 01:18:03,375 --> 01:18:05,250 his, what he posts online. 2122 01:18:06,541 --> 01:18:07,541 Alex, I reckon we've got 2123 01:18:07,541 --> 01:18:08,625 the basics covered there. 2124 01:18:08,958 --> 01:18:12,083 I mean, we've only just scratched the tip 2125 01:18:12,083 --> 01:18:13,166 of the iceberg when it 2126 01:18:13,166 --> 01:18:15,875 comes to all the potential 2127 01:18:17,041 --> 01:18:19,708 immunological side of things, not to 2128 01:18:19,708 --> 01:18:21,500 mention the cut side of things, etc. 2129 01:18:22,416 --> 01:18:24,833 But for the sake of time and your sanity, 2130 01:18:25,083 --> 01:18:27,958 I'd love to sort of maybe pivot towards 2131 01:18:27,958 --> 01:18:31,458 talking about how people can really start 2132 01:18:31,458 --> 01:18:34,208 to deal with these sorts of issues, at 2133 01:18:34,208 --> 01:18:35,291 least at a high level. 2134 01:18:35,291 --> 01:18:36,416 And I'd love it if we could sort of 2135 01:18:36,416 --> 01:18:38,958 create just again, broadly speaking, a 2136 01:18:38,958 --> 01:18:39,875 framework that people 2137 01:18:39,875 --> 01:18:40,833 can start to follow. 2138 01:18:41,625 --> 01:18:44,875 Again, I know we could go in many 2139 01:18:44,875 --> 01:18:45,750 directions with this. 2140 01:18:45,750 --> 01:18:47,416 And we can't get that granular because, 2141 01:18:48,208 --> 01:18:51,166 as you've alluded to, I mean, there's 2142 01:18:51,166 --> 01:18:52,791 something like the gut, for example, I 2143 01:18:52,791 --> 01:18:54,250 mean, you can have, there's three 2144 01:18:54,250 --> 01:18:56,375 different types of SIBO, for example, 2145 01:18:56,375 --> 01:18:57,208 each of which could have 2146 01:18:57,208 --> 01:18:58,250 10 different inventions. 2147 01:18:59,208 --> 01:19:01,500 So, yeah, I know we can't help anyone, 2148 01:19:01,833 --> 01:19:05,000 everyone with this sort of framework, but 2149 01:19:05,000 --> 01:19:07,791 just a way to sort of view it, which I 2150 01:19:07,791 --> 01:19:09,041 think would be helpful. 2151 01:19:11,000 --> 01:19:13,833 And then maybe if time allows, we can 2152 01:19:13,833 --> 01:19:15,250 start talking about some more esoteric 2153 01:19:15,250 --> 01:19:18,208 ideas like H-Bot and LDN, etc. 2154 01:19:19,083 --> 01:19:21,625 I think obviously the best place to start 2155 01:19:21,625 --> 01:19:24,208 off with here would be with obviously the 2156 01:19:24,208 --> 01:19:26,041 boring, the lifestyle, the diet piece. 2157 01:19:26,750 --> 01:19:28,791 And then maybe we can sort of pivot into 2158 01:19:28,791 --> 01:19:33,375 helping people maybe 2159 01:19:33,375 --> 01:19:34,625 identify their trigger. 2160 01:19:34,625 --> 01:19:37,500 I think we've already done that to some 2161 01:19:37,500 --> 01:19:38,708 extent, but maybe we can 2162 01:19:38,708 --> 01:19:40,166 touch on that again too. 2163 01:19:40,958 --> 01:19:42,958 And then different strategies to help 2164 01:19:42,958 --> 01:19:45,791 maybe start to reduce that toxic load to 2165 01:19:45,791 --> 01:19:47,416 support the adrenals. 2166 01:19:47,416 --> 01:19:49,291 I know that's a bit hidden-ness. 2167 01:19:50,166 --> 01:19:52,750 And then, yeah, to support the nervous 2168 01:19:52,750 --> 01:19:54,458 system, we've discussed that a lot. 2169 01:19:56,125 --> 01:19:57,125 And I think some 2170 01:19:57,125 --> 01:19:59,250 strategies there would be useful. 2171 01:19:59,250 --> 01:20:02,541 And then finally, things like just basic 2172 01:20:02,541 --> 01:20:04,166 hormonal and mitochondrial support. 2173 01:20:06,375 --> 01:20:10,791 Again, I think we've, yeah, and this will 2174 01:20:10,791 --> 01:20:11,916 come through obviously in our 2175 01:20:11,916 --> 01:20:14,416 conversation, but I just want to point 2176 01:20:14,416 --> 01:20:17,333 out to the audience that really you do 2177 01:20:17,333 --> 01:20:19,041 want to sort of follow a framework in 2178 01:20:19,041 --> 01:20:21,833 this respect, because just going back to 2179 01:20:21,833 --> 01:20:23,250 our conversation earlier about 2180 01:20:23,250 --> 01:20:24,250 mitochondrial dysfunction, 2181 01:20:25,625 --> 01:20:27,916 chances are if you have any sort of 2182 01:20:27,916 --> 01:20:29,666 lingering fatigue, there's going to be an 2183 01:20:29,666 --> 01:20:30,125 element of 2184 01:20:30,125 --> 01:20:31,541 mitochondrial dysfunction to it. 2185 01:20:32,208 --> 01:20:34,000 However, if you suddenly start taking 2186 01:20:34,000 --> 01:20:35,875 mitochondrial support, supplements, 2187 01:20:36,083 --> 01:20:39,208 nutrients, co-cutin, carnitine, all these 2188 01:20:39,291 --> 01:20:41,583 sorts of particular, these electron 2189 01:20:41,583 --> 01:20:43,750 donors for the most part, you can 2190 01:20:43,750 --> 01:20:45,166 sometimes make things worse. 2191 01:20:46,041 --> 01:20:48,333 One of the byproducts of, as you know, 2192 01:20:48,333 --> 01:20:50,333 Alex, energy production, oxidative 2193 01:20:50,333 --> 01:20:52,166 phosphorylation is the production of 2194 01:20:52,166 --> 01:20:54,958 reaction of oxygen species, ROS, at the 2195 01:20:54,958 --> 01:20:56,625 end of that particular cycle. 2196 01:20:57,125 --> 01:20:59,000 And if you're going to feed the body 2197 01:20:59,000 --> 01:21:01,458 large amounts of these electron donors 2198 01:21:01,458 --> 01:21:05,250 and antioxidants, well, they are 2199 01:21:05,250 --> 01:21:07,583 secondary antioxidants, some of them, you 2200 01:21:07,583 --> 01:21:09,833 can actually make matters worse. 2201 01:21:10,166 --> 01:21:12,000 So yeah, there really, again, is an order 2202 01:21:12,000 --> 01:21:14,833 of operations to this where, so I think 2203 01:21:14,833 --> 01:21:17,833 having this system in place would be, for 2204 01:21:17,833 --> 01:21:19,291 those listening, quite beneficial. 2205 01:21:20,708 --> 01:21:24,041 So again, unless I missed anything, and 2206 01:21:24,041 --> 01:21:25,791 please feel free to correct me on 2207 01:21:25,791 --> 01:21:27,666 anything that I've said that's wrong, 2208 01:21:28,708 --> 01:21:30,708 which is probably quite high, 2209 01:21:31,916 --> 01:21:34,000 I think we should jump into the lifestyle 2210 01:21:34,000 --> 01:21:36,625 and the diet piece, which 2211 01:21:36,625 --> 01:21:37,916 is a good place to start. 2212 01:21:40,125 --> 01:21:43,291 Broadly speaking, where would you have 2213 01:21:43,291 --> 01:21:46,458 someone start with regards to this? 2214 01:21:46,875 --> 01:21:50,708 Yeah, so I guess from a dietary 2215 01:21:50,708 --> 01:21:54,875 perspective, like if I had to, if I had 2216 01:21:54,875 --> 01:21:57,125 to give like a generic comment around it, 2217 01:21:57,125 --> 01:22:00,000 it would essentially be moving people 2218 01:22:00,000 --> 01:22:03,250 towards a paleo style framework, I think, 2219 01:22:03,666 --> 01:22:05,750 you know, moderate, moderate high 2220 01:22:05,750 --> 01:22:06,833 protein, moderate high 2221 01:22:06,833 --> 01:22:08,416 fat, low carb framework. 2222 01:22:09,166 --> 01:22:10,083 And I think a lot of 2223 01:22:10,083 --> 01:22:12,250 people will benefit from that. 2224 01:22:12,500 --> 01:22:14,458 I wouldn't go all the way to keto, 2225 01:22:14,458 --> 01:22:16,500 obviously, because that can be, again, 2226 01:22:16,500 --> 01:22:17,791 that can go wrong, especially when 2227 01:22:17,791 --> 01:22:18,500 there's mitochondrial 2228 01:22:18,500 --> 01:22:19,500 dysfunction at play. 2229 01:22:20,375 --> 01:22:22,166 So we'd want carbs in there, but 2230 01:22:22,166 --> 01:22:24,458 certainly a paleo style framework is 2231 01:22:24,458 --> 01:22:27,000 probably the easiest, quickest way of 2232 01:22:27,000 --> 01:22:30,416 describing what is going to be 2233 01:22:30,416 --> 01:22:31,875 beneficial, I think, for 2234 01:22:31,875 --> 01:22:34,166 more, the majority of people. 2235 01:22:35,666 --> 01:22:38,083 Now, ideally, you know, in season, whole 2236 01:22:38,083 --> 01:22:40,791 food, I actually don't think it without 2237 01:22:40,791 --> 01:22:43,458 the context of an individual, it needs to 2238 01:22:43,458 --> 01:22:44,375 be over complicated. 2239 01:22:45,791 --> 01:22:49,166 So whole food diets, nutrient dense, lots 2240 01:22:49,166 --> 01:22:51,041 of polyphenols, lots of color, this idea 2241 01:22:51,041 --> 01:22:52,750 of eat the rainbow a day if you can. 2242 01:22:54,083 --> 01:22:56,416 Now, oftentimes, people are going to have 2243 01:22:56,416 --> 01:22:58,750 personal reactions to foods. 2244 01:22:59,291 --> 01:23:01,375 And the caveat here is I do think, you 2245 01:23:01,375 --> 01:23:03,583 know, there's a moderate percentage of 2246 01:23:03,583 --> 01:23:04,375 people that could have a 2247 01:23:04,375 --> 01:23:05,416 bit of a histamine issue. 2248 01:23:05,833 --> 01:23:08,875 So, you know, FYI, you might need to go 2249 01:23:08,875 --> 01:23:10,958 more to a low histamine diet 2250 01:23:10,958 --> 01:23:13,166 within that framework as well. 2251 01:23:13,166 --> 01:23:15,166 So it can start to sound much more 2252 01:23:15,166 --> 01:23:17,708 complicated and have more nuance to it. 2253 01:23:17,708 --> 01:23:19,833 Once we know about the individual and 2254 01:23:19,833 --> 01:23:21,458 their unique sensitivities. 2255 01:23:21,875 --> 01:23:24,375 But yes, I do think, you know, a high 2256 01:23:24,375 --> 01:23:26,666 protein, high fat sort of breakfast for 2257 01:23:26,666 --> 01:23:28,583 many people works well. 2258 01:23:29,166 --> 01:23:31,791 And then really thinking about in season 2259 01:23:31,791 --> 01:23:34,083 and whole food, and I'm not sure it needs 2260 01:23:34,083 --> 01:23:37,000 to be more complicated without specific 2261 01:23:37,000 --> 01:23:39,208 knowledge of the individual, ultimately. 2262 01:23:40,083 --> 01:23:41,791 Certainly in fibromyalgia, there are 2263 01:23:41,791 --> 01:23:44,333 studies and I think a meta analysis that 2264 01:23:44,333 --> 01:23:46,833 basically concluded every single diet 2265 01:23:46,833 --> 01:23:48,291 that has been trialed has 2266 01:23:48,291 --> 01:23:49,791 been beneficial for some. 2267 01:23:50,208 --> 01:23:52,041 So whether that's paleo Mediterranean, 2268 01:23:52,500 --> 01:23:55,666 low FODMAP, low histamine, vegan, you 2269 01:23:55,666 --> 01:23:57,000 know, there are people that benefit it. 2270 01:23:57,458 --> 01:24:00,750 So that I find quite interesting as well. 2271 01:24:00,750 --> 01:24:02,291 Now, fibromyalgia, obviously a different 2272 01:24:02,291 --> 01:24:05,166 entity, but there is an overlap there. 2273 01:24:06,250 --> 01:24:08,750 So it's something that I think, although 2274 01:24:08,750 --> 01:24:10,291 I sit here as, you know, a nutritional 2275 01:24:10,291 --> 01:24:14,333 therapist, primarily nutrition for me is 2276 01:24:14,333 --> 01:24:15,916 actually one of the smaller pieces that 2277 01:24:15,916 --> 01:24:16,916 we probably need to like 2278 01:24:16,916 --> 01:24:18,750 investigate and acquire around. 2279 01:24:18,750 --> 01:24:20,083 And if it's whole food in season, 2280 01:24:20,458 --> 01:24:22,333 nutrient dense, you're kind of ticking 2281 01:24:22,333 --> 01:24:24,916 the big boxes without then personalizing 2282 01:24:24,916 --> 01:24:26,125 it to the individual needs. 2283 01:24:27,291 --> 01:24:28,166 Yeah, that was perfect. 2284 01:24:29,125 --> 01:24:31,250 Just a quick question regarding the 2285 01:24:31,250 --> 01:24:32,666 elimination side of things. 2286 01:24:33,125 --> 01:24:34,666 And I know that might be getting slightly 2287 01:24:34,666 --> 01:24:36,583 into the weeds, but I think for a lot of 2288 01:24:36,583 --> 01:24:40,583 people that is quite doable, if you are 2289 01:24:40,583 --> 01:24:43,416 indeed still getting a lot of flare ups 2290 01:24:43,416 --> 01:24:45,666 when you're just following this very sort 2291 01:24:45,666 --> 01:24:49,625 of, yeah, this elemental paleo approach. 2292 01:24:50,916 --> 01:24:53,291 I often sort of suggest that for a short 2293 01:24:53,291 --> 01:24:55,291 period of time, that people really do 2294 01:24:55,291 --> 01:24:59,083 have sort of a lot of food restrictions 2295 01:24:59,083 --> 01:25:03,791 or a lot of flare ups that they take the 2296 01:25:03,791 --> 01:25:05,666 easiest approach and if they're open to 2297 01:25:05,666 --> 01:25:06,916 it, maybe follow something like a 2298 01:25:06,916 --> 01:25:08,500 carnivore diet for a short period of 2299 01:25:08,500 --> 01:25:10,708 time, and then sort of reverse engineer 2300 01:25:10,708 --> 01:25:13,958 it and then slowly reintroduce foods that 2301 01:25:13,958 --> 01:25:16,833 they can handle that aren't necessarily 2302 01:25:16,833 --> 01:25:17,875 triggering the 2303 01:25:17,875 --> 01:25:19,000 reactions that they're having. 2304 01:25:20,583 --> 01:25:23,250 And I suppose I really recommend that 2305 01:25:23,250 --> 01:25:27,291 because a carnivore diet is basically the 2306 01:25:27,291 --> 01:25:29,166 ultimate elimination diet and it takes 2307 01:25:29,166 --> 01:25:31,541 care of FOBMAPs, takes care of histamine 2308 01:25:31,541 --> 01:25:33,500 as long as obviously your meat's not 2309 01:25:33,500 --> 01:25:35,000 sitting in the fridge for three weeks. 2310 01:25:36,750 --> 01:25:39,375 And it takes care of a lot. 2311 01:25:39,583 --> 01:25:41,833 So you can then start to reintroduce 2312 01:25:41,833 --> 01:25:43,250 things like dairy and see if this 2313 01:25:43,250 --> 01:25:45,583 actually is an issue for you or not. 2314 01:25:45,833 --> 01:25:47,333 I mean, obviously there are multiple 2315 01:25:47,333 --> 01:25:48,958 things in dairy that could be triggering. 2316 01:25:50,000 --> 01:25:52,000 Do you think utilizing something like 2317 01:25:52,000 --> 01:25:55,416 that, if following a whole foods approach 2318 01:25:55,416 --> 01:25:57,541 doesn't work as an option? 2319 01:25:59,000 --> 01:26:01,166 The way that I've said it for a while is 2320 01:26:01,166 --> 01:26:08,000 I think the sort of the extremity is the 2321 01:26:08,000 --> 01:26:09,291 word I'm looking for, if that is a word, 2322 01:26:09,625 --> 01:26:12,750 extremity of the diet needs to correlate. 2323 01:26:13,458 --> 01:26:15,666 Well, one way to look at this is the 2324 01:26:15,708 --> 01:26:17,416 extremity of the diet needs to correlate 2325 01:26:17,416 --> 01:26:18,833 with the extremity of the symptoms. 2326 01:26:20,208 --> 01:26:22,333 So if someone is really struggling and 2327 01:26:22,333 --> 01:26:23,833 they're saying, "Alex, I'm just reacting 2328 01:26:23,833 --> 01:26:25,083 to everything ultimately," 2329 01:26:26,291 --> 01:26:29,583 then that would be the only time to start 2330 01:26:29,583 --> 01:26:30,833 considering it, I think. 2331 01:26:31,500 --> 01:26:33,000 And again, it's a tricky one because 2332 01:26:33,125 --> 01:26:34,333 there are some people that can have 2333 01:26:34,333 --> 01:26:34,833 life-changing 2334 01:26:34,833 --> 01:26:36,541 experiences going on carnivore. 2335 01:26:37,291 --> 01:26:40,083 And there are people that have never been 2336 01:26:40,083 --> 01:26:41,625 right since going on carnivore or have 2337 01:26:41,625 --> 01:26:43,333 been worse since going on carnivore. 2338 01:26:43,333 --> 01:26:44,541 So I think it's really important to 2339 01:26:44,541 --> 01:26:46,041 appreciate whenever you're doing an 2340 01:26:46,041 --> 01:26:49,083 extreme intervention, you have higher 2341 01:26:49,083 --> 01:26:50,500 risks attached to it. 2342 01:26:51,083 --> 01:26:53,958 And if you're already fragile on a 2343 01:26:53,958 --> 01:26:56,208 physiological level, I sometimes wonder 2344 01:26:56,208 --> 01:26:58,791 whether actually you are more susceptible 2345 01:26:58,791 --> 01:27:01,791 to having a negative reaction to an 2346 01:27:01,791 --> 01:27:02,833 extreme intervention. 2347 01:27:03,666 --> 01:27:07,000 So it's something that I'm open to. 2348 01:27:07,250 --> 01:27:08,833 And obviously all of these things, the 2349 01:27:08,833 --> 01:27:10,083 client is the one deciding 2350 01:27:10,083 --> 01:27:11,291 how they want to proceed. 2351 01:27:12,333 --> 01:27:14,958 So if symptoms are severe enough, then it 2352 01:27:14,958 --> 01:27:16,250 could be something that you trial. 2353 01:27:16,583 --> 01:27:18,458 And maybe it's a trial for a week before 2354 01:27:18,458 --> 01:27:19,958 you start reintroducing things. 2355 01:27:19,958 --> 01:27:21,291 It doesn't have to be a long time when 2356 01:27:21,291 --> 01:27:22,333 you're doing something that extreme. 2357 01:27:24,083 --> 01:27:25,750 And in the research, although they don't 2358 01:27:25,750 --> 01:27:27,500 go as far as talking about carnivore, 2359 01:27:27,500 --> 01:27:28,916 what they do talk about with elimination 2360 01:27:28,916 --> 01:27:30,291 diets is the two 2361 01:27:30,291 --> 01:27:31,708 different ways of going about it. 2362 01:27:31,708 --> 01:27:33,583 And your personality can dictate which 2363 01:27:33,583 --> 01:27:35,166 one's most appropriate for you. 2364 01:27:35,500 --> 01:27:36,500 And this is common sense. 2365 01:27:36,750 --> 01:27:38,041 You can take one food out 2366 01:27:38,041 --> 01:27:40,750 at a time and do it that way. 2367 01:27:41,125 --> 01:27:42,458 Or you can go and do... 2368 01:27:43,500 --> 01:27:46,375 They have different names for these, but 2369 01:27:46,375 --> 01:27:49,166 a 12 food elimination diet or a six food 2370 01:27:49,166 --> 01:27:50,125 elimination diet or a 2371 01:27:50,125 --> 01:27:51,500 three food elimination diet. 2372 01:27:52,000 --> 01:27:54,125 And so you can go all the way and that 2373 01:27:54,125 --> 01:27:54,583 you say with 2374 01:27:54,583 --> 01:27:56,125 carnivore, come back from there. 2375 01:27:56,416 --> 01:27:57,833 And that's just a personal preference 2376 01:27:57,833 --> 01:27:59,125 type thing that's going to be based 2377 01:27:59,125 --> 01:28:00,833 probably on how much someone is suffering 2378 01:28:00,833 --> 01:28:01,666 at the end of the day. 2379 01:28:02,416 --> 01:28:05,083 Yeah, those are great words. 2380 01:28:05,083 --> 01:28:07,750 And I think another great resource while 2381 01:28:07,750 --> 01:28:09,750 you're talking, I just sprung to mind and 2382 01:28:09,750 --> 01:28:11,541 I should have mentioned earlier was the 2383 01:28:11,541 --> 01:28:13,916 autoimmune paleo diet, I 2384 01:28:13,916 --> 01:28:15,125 believe by Mickey Trescott. 2385 01:28:15,541 --> 01:28:17,541 I think that's a bit of an 2386 01:28:17,541 --> 01:28:19,500 original text in this space. 2387 01:28:20,875 --> 01:28:23,791 And that's probably also a good starting 2388 01:28:23,791 --> 01:28:26,500 point for a lot of people to follow if 2389 01:28:26,500 --> 01:28:29,500 they find that they are reacting to the 2390 01:28:29,500 --> 01:28:31,333 sort of traditional paleo, 2391 01:28:31,333 --> 01:28:32,500 maybe lower carb approach. 2392 01:28:33,458 --> 01:28:36,583 And yeah, as you said, I think that's a 2393 01:28:36,583 --> 01:28:38,125 great place to start and that it 2394 01:28:38,125 --> 01:28:39,583 shouldn't really be over 2395 01:28:39,583 --> 01:28:41,166 complicated unnecessarily. 2396 01:28:43,083 --> 01:28:43,625 That's perfect. 2397 01:28:44,583 --> 01:28:47,500 Okay, so beyond dietary interventions, 2398 01:28:47,500 --> 01:28:49,958 we've got the basic movement, sunlight, 2399 01:28:51,625 --> 01:28:52,291 sleep. 2400 01:28:53,625 --> 01:28:57,791 Now, obviously, I think anyone who is in 2401 01:28:57,791 --> 01:28:59,833 the space and is listening to these sorts 2402 01:28:59,833 --> 01:29:02,000 of podcasts trying to find resolution is, 2403 01:29:02,000 --> 01:29:05,500 it is likely familiar with the importance 2404 01:29:05,500 --> 01:29:07,583 of grounding, of getting outdoors, of 2405 01:29:07,583 --> 01:29:10,583 getting natural sunlight to help restore 2406 01:29:10,583 --> 01:29:12,333 the circadian rhythm. 2407 01:29:13,916 --> 01:29:17,083 Sleep, I think is something that people, 2408 01:29:17,833 --> 01:29:20,291 that sounds intuitive and people would, 2409 01:29:22,083 --> 01:29:22,916 they understand that 2410 01:29:22,916 --> 01:29:24,041 they need to get more of it. 2411 01:29:24,041 --> 01:29:25,958 But I think there are a few nuances there 2412 01:29:25,958 --> 01:29:28,333 that people really need 2413 01:29:28,333 --> 01:29:29,500 to dig into a little more. 2414 01:29:29,833 --> 01:29:31,833 And maybe that sounds a bit prescriptive, 2415 01:29:31,833 --> 01:29:32,791 it wasn't meant to be. 2416 01:29:33,000 --> 01:29:36,250 But I think that when you think about 2417 01:29:36,250 --> 01:29:38,250 sleep, you've got to also think about 2418 01:29:38,708 --> 01:29:39,916 what makes sleep 2419 01:29:39,916 --> 01:29:41,250 healthy, what makes sleep good. 2420 01:29:41,500 --> 01:29:44,333 And in that respect, things like healthy 2421 01:29:44,333 --> 01:29:47,125 airways, being able to breathe nasally 2422 01:29:47,125 --> 01:29:49,958 properly at night is important, as well 2423 01:29:49,958 --> 01:29:51,208 as making sure that your sleep 2424 01:29:51,208 --> 01:29:53,750 environment is on point. 2425 01:29:54,041 --> 01:29:56,791 I think those are two things that people, 2426 01:29:57,625 --> 01:29:59,375 yeah, folks listening should be aware of. 2427 01:29:59,375 --> 01:30:02,458 And in that regard, I think that the use 2428 01:30:02,458 --> 01:30:04,416 of nasal strips can help from a 2429 01:30:04,416 --> 01:30:05,458 congestion standpoint. 2430 01:30:06,791 --> 01:30:09,291 Definitely just open up those airways and 2431 01:30:09,291 --> 01:30:11,333 allow some more sympathetic, 2432 01:30:11,666 --> 01:30:12,208 parasympathetic 2433 01:30:12,416 --> 01:30:14,208 activity to occur during sleep. 2434 01:30:14,916 --> 01:30:18,583 I think that's an easy, sort of easily 2435 01:30:18,583 --> 01:30:19,625 accessible tool for 2436 01:30:19,625 --> 01:30:23,833 most people to utilize. 2437 01:30:24,166 --> 01:30:26,125 And then also making sure that your sleep 2438 01:30:26,125 --> 01:30:27,833 environment is on point. 2439 01:30:28,208 --> 01:30:30,208 So maybe turning off the Wi-Fi router, 2440 01:30:30,500 --> 01:30:32,708 making sure that it is as little out in 2441 01:30:32,708 --> 01:30:33,625 the room as possible. 2442 01:30:34,625 --> 01:30:37,458 I think those are both easy strategies 2443 01:30:37,458 --> 01:30:40,958 that people can utilize to ensure that 2444 01:30:40,958 --> 01:30:42,458 they're getting the best possible sleep. 2445 01:30:44,083 --> 01:30:45,500 Would you add anything into that? 2446 01:30:45,833 --> 01:30:47,833 And what do you think of the 2447 01:30:47,833 --> 01:30:49,625 Wi-Fi piece, the EMF piece? 2448 01:30:50,416 --> 01:30:53,666 Nothing that I'd really add, apart from 2449 01:30:53,666 --> 01:30:58,375 just acknowledging that inflammation or 2450 01:30:58,375 --> 01:31:01,125 microbiome, histamine, these things 2451 01:31:01,125 --> 01:31:02,500 impact sleep quality. 2452 01:31:02,916 --> 01:31:05,333 So I think a lot of the time with these 2453 01:31:05,333 --> 01:31:07,291 sorts of individuals dealing with MCAS, 2454 01:31:07,541 --> 01:31:10,583 CFS, et cetera, their poor sleep is 2455 01:31:10,583 --> 01:31:13,083 often, again, a symptom downstream. 2456 01:31:13,083 --> 01:31:14,875 And there's things that are interrupting 2457 01:31:14,875 --> 01:31:16,916 that sleep quality and that sleep cycle. 2458 01:31:16,916 --> 01:31:19,666 And histamine can be so neurostimulatory. 2459 01:31:19,666 --> 01:31:21,083 I mean, I've had terrible 2460 01:31:21,083 --> 01:31:22,666 histamine issues in the past. 2461 01:31:22,666 --> 01:31:24,916 And one of the primary symptoms was 2462 01:31:24,916 --> 01:31:26,291 insomnia, basically. 2463 01:31:26,291 --> 01:31:28,208 And it was this weird state of the mind 2464 01:31:28,208 --> 01:31:30,125 being so switched on, but 2465 01:31:30,125 --> 01:31:31,625 physically feeling very tired. 2466 01:31:33,416 --> 01:31:34,958 So it can be really problematic. 2467 01:31:35,208 --> 01:31:36,458 But yes, the foundations 2468 01:31:36,458 --> 01:31:37,916 still have to be in place. 2469 01:31:38,458 --> 01:31:39,833 You still need the sleep hygiene. 2470 01:31:40,291 --> 01:31:41,791 You still want to be thinking about your 2471 01:31:41,791 --> 01:31:42,750 breathing patterns and 2472 01:31:42,750 --> 01:31:43,750 these sorts of things. 2473 01:31:43,750 --> 01:31:46,333 But if you're still struggling, it's not 2474 01:31:46,333 --> 01:31:48,541 because you need to do more around the 2475 01:31:48,541 --> 01:31:49,708 sleep hygiene in your environment. 2476 01:31:50,000 --> 01:31:50,416 It's that there's 2477 01:31:50,416 --> 01:31:51,791 something else, obviously, at play. 2478 01:31:54,500 --> 01:31:56,916 And then your other parts of this was? 2479 01:31:58,500 --> 01:32:00,833 Yeah, we talked about sunlight exposure 2480 01:32:00,833 --> 01:32:03,541 and the movement ground 2481 01:32:03,541 --> 01:32:04,750 movements. 2482 01:32:05,375 --> 01:32:06,083 So yeah, movement is 2483 01:32:06,083 --> 01:32:07,291 going to be very personal. 2484 01:32:07,291 --> 01:32:08,416 And I know this is a bit of a heated 2485 01:32:08,416 --> 01:32:09,291 topic within the 2486 01:32:09,291 --> 01:32:11,708 space for obvious reasons. 2487 01:32:11,708 --> 01:32:13,250 But I think it's a 2488 01:32:13,250 --> 01:32:14,958 matter of doing what you can. 2489 01:32:15,375 --> 01:32:17,750 And I do think it's about understanding 2490 01:32:17,750 --> 01:32:18,625 to the best of your 2491 01:32:18,625 --> 01:32:20,541 ability what your capacity is. 2492 01:32:21,125 --> 01:32:23,000 And sometimes you might overheat that. 2493 01:32:23,416 --> 01:32:24,500 And then there's going to be a little bit 2494 01:32:24,500 --> 01:32:25,625 of a flare or relapse. 2495 01:32:27,041 --> 01:32:28,916 But I really like the idea of there's got 2496 01:32:28,916 --> 01:32:31,416 to be something no matter what, almost no 2497 01:32:31,416 --> 01:32:32,666 matter what, there's got to be something 2498 01:32:32,666 --> 01:32:34,291 even if that's getting yourself a can of 2499 01:32:34,291 --> 01:32:35,916 baked beans and doing a bicep curl in 2500 01:32:35,916 --> 01:32:37,208 bed, because there's 2501 01:32:37,208 --> 01:32:38,625 the intention behind it. 2502 01:32:38,625 --> 01:32:40,500 And there's the mindset behind it, which 2503 01:32:40,500 --> 01:32:42,708 I think is actually really important and 2504 01:32:42,708 --> 01:32:44,000 powerful in its own right. 2505 01:32:44,750 --> 01:32:46,458 So I have an old client who 2506 01:32:46,458 --> 01:32:47,958 always comes to mind to you. 2507 01:32:48,166 --> 01:32:50,875 She just started with one repetition of 2508 01:32:50,875 --> 01:32:52,166 five different exercises. 2509 01:32:52,541 --> 01:32:54,583 And it was either with a dumb, small, 2510 01:32:54,875 --> 01:32:56,375 tiny dumbbells that she bought, it was a 2511 01:32:56,375 --> 01:32:58,125 bodyweight squat, for example, one 2512 01:32:58,125 --> 01:32:59,416 bodyweight squat a day. 2513 01:32:59,791 --> 01:33:01,291 And that went to two, 2514 01:33:01,291 --> 01:33:02,458 and then it went to three. 2515 01:33:02,458 --> 01:33:05,000 And she just very slowly built it up. 2516 01:33:05,333 --> 01:33:07,000 Because there's this fine balance, I 2517 01:33:07,000 --> 01:33:08,916 think, between like, when you do nothing, 2518 01:33:08,916 --> 01:33:10,458 and you're getting more and more D 2519 01:33:10,458 --> 01:33:12,625 conditions, then it starts to obviously 2520 01:33:12,625 --> 01:33:14,041 compound your overall 2521 01:33:14,041 --> 01:33:15,500 health state ultimately. 2522 01:33:16,250 --> 01:33:18,125 So we want to try and maintain whatever 2523 01:33:18,125 --> 01:33:20,750 we can, if not improve upon it. 2524 01:33:21,125 --> 01:33:21,958 And I think that's such 2525 01:33:21,958 --> 01:33:23,625 an important piece of this. 2526 01:33:23,625 --> 01:33:25,500 But again, without knowing where someone 2527 01:33:25,500 --> 01:33:27,708 is within the spectrum, you know, it's 2528 01:33:27,708 --> 01:33:29,708 hard to be able to give any specificity. 2529 01:33:30,833 --> 01:33:33,791 Yeah, just with regard to that, and thank 2530 01:33:33,791 --> 01:33:34,416 you for bringing it 2531 01:33:34,416 --> 01:33:35,625 up, I do glean over it. 2532 01:33:36,250 --> 01:33:37,416 What do you think about, 2533 01:33:38,875 --> 01:33:40,625 I don't want to use the term exercise 2534 01:33:40,625 --> 01:33:45,000 mimetics, but technologies like PEMF, to 2535 01:33:45,000 --> 01:33:47,791 maybe support that process to maybe help 2536 01:33:47,791 --> 01:33:48,875 from an oxygenation 2537 01:33:48,875 --> 01:33:50,083 standpoint within the body? 2538 01:33:50,833 --> 01:33:52,208 Yeah, it's not something I've looked into 2539 01:33:52,208 --> 01:33:53,125 a huge amount, I must 2540 01:33:53,125 --> 01:33:54,666 say, but I do know that Dr. 2541 01:33:54,916 --> 01:33:56,416 Terry Walls did some of this stuff with 2542 01:33:56,416 --> 01:33:57,291 her kind of journey 2543 01:33:57,291 --> 01:33:58,875 with multiple sclerosis. 2544 01:34:00,000 --> 01:34:02,000 So yeah, that came to mind. 2545 01:34:02,250 --> 01:34:04,291 And obviously, she has some incredible 2546 01:34:04,291 --> 01:34:06,000 results with everything that 2547 01:34:06,000 --> 01:34:07,083 she did, and there was a lot. 2548 01:34:08,291 --> 01:34:10,000 But yeah, I think there is value for 2549 01:34:10,000 --> 01:34:13,083 people that are really struggling to, you 2550 01:34:13,083 --> 01:34:15,208 know, to move into exercise because of 2551 01:34:15,208 --> 01:34:16,458 the nature of their health. 2552 01:34:17,250 --> 01:34:20,041 Yeah, no, it's, it's definitely a big 2553 01:34:20,041 --> 01:34:21,750 one, especially where there is that sort 2554 01:34:21,750 --> 01:34:23,750 of post-exertional malaise that happens 2555 01:34:23,750 --> 01:34:25,958 that sort of post those issues with 2556 01:34:25,958 --> 01:34:27,500 recovering from exercise when people 2557 01:34:27,666 --> 01:34:28,750 really are struggling. 2558 01:34:30,250 --> 01:34:32,041 But yeah, it is important just from a 2559 01:34:32,041 --> 01:34:34,208 sort of an ability to keep those 2560 01:34:34,208 --> 01:34:36,041 mitochondria taking over to help with 2561 01:34:36,041 --> 01:34:39,083 lymphatic flow, lymphatic flow, etc. 2562 01:34:41,375 --> 01:34:44,458 Okay, so I think the next sort of logical 2563 01:34:44,458 --> 01:34:46,041 sort of step in this would be to sort of 2564 01:34:46,041 --> 01:34:48,500 talk about the gut, and we could probably 2565 01:34:48,500 --> 01:34:52,041 tie in detoxification that in that, in 2566 01:34:52,041 --> 01:34:52,750 that as well, just 2567 01:34:52,750 --> 01:34:53,833 from a time perspective. 2568 01:34:53,833 --> 01:34:56,666 But how do you generally approach that? 2569 01:34:58,416 --> 01:34:59,375 So yeah, it's a good question. 2570 01:34:59,375 --> 01:35:00,791 It's an important point, because 2571 01:35:00,791 --> 01:35:02,583 obviously another foundational piece 2572 01:35:02,583 --> 01:35:04,166 that, you know, is one of the first 2573 01:35:04,166 --> 01:35:05,625 things that we need to be considering is 2574 01:35:05,625 --> 01:35:06,875 a daily bowel movement. 2575 01:35:07,833 --> 01:35:09,041 You know, people need to be pooping at 2576 01:35:09,041 --> 01:35:11,125 least once a day, it should be easy to 2577 01:35:11,125 --> 01:35:13,000 pass, well-formed, sausage-like, 2578 01:35:13,541 --> 01:35:14,416 shouldn't be any pain. 2579 01:35:15,750 --> 01:35:16,458 And that's, you know, 2580 01:35:16,625 --> 01:35:18,583 becoming rarer and rarer, ultimately. 2581 01:35:19,625 --> 01:35:21,875 But from a detox perspective, but also as 2582 01:35:21,875 --> 01:35:25,000 the best biomarker of your gut health, an 2583 01:35:25,000 --> 01:35:27,666 easy to pass, well-formed stool is, you 2584 01:35:27,666 --> 01:35:29,125 know, that's the goal, that's what we're 2585 01:35:29,125 --> 01:35:29,958 all looking for for 2586 01:35:29,958 --> 01:35:30,791 gut health, ultimately. 2587 01:35:31,041 --> 01:35:34,500 So I would worry less about those one, 2588 01:35:34,500 --> 01:35:36,458 two, three bacteria in your stool test 2589 01:35:36,458 --> 01:35:38,125 that are out of the reference range and 2590 01:35:38,125 --> 01:35:39,500 focus much more on, do 2591 01:35:39,500 --> 01:35:40,458 you have any bloating? 2592 01:35:40,458 --> 01:35:41,708 Do you have much flatulence? 2593 01:35:41,958 --> 01:35:43,333 And how is your bowel movement? 2594 01:35:44,166 --> 01:35:45,625 If those are all good, then, 2595 01:35:45,625 --> 01:35:47,083 you know, that's good enough. 2596 01:35:47,083 --> 01:35:48,458 And then you can move on to the next 2597 01:35:48,458 --> 01:35:49,833 piece of the puzzle, ultimately. 2598 01:35:51,583 --> 01:35:53,500 But yeah, with chronic fatigue syndrome, 2599 01:35:53,500 --> 01:35:55,666 ME, we definitely do need to sometimes be 2600 01:35:55,666 --> 01:35:56,791 thinking about SIBO. 2601 01:35:57,000 --> 01:35:58,291 We do need to be thinking about 2602 01:35:58,291 --> 01:36:00,000 overgrowth infections within 2603 01:36:00,000 --> 01:36:01,500 the large intestine as well. 2604 01:36:02,916 --> 01:36:06,541 And an interesting one with SIBO or EMO, 2605 01:36:06,541 --> 01:36:08,666 as it's now called intestinal methanogen 2606 01:36:08,666 --> 01:36:10,041 overgrowth, rather 2607 01:36:10,041 --> 01:36:11,500 than kind of methane SIBO, 2608 01:36:13,750 --> 01:36:15,916 is there is a little bit of research that 2609 01:36:15,916 --> 01:36:16,958 discusses this being an 2610 01:36:16,958 --> 01:36:18,166 adaptive response again. 2611 01:36:18,583 --> 01:36:22,208 So exogenous methane, given by IV, has 2612 01:36:22,208 --> 01:36:23,666 been shown to have anti-inflammatory 2613 01:36:23,666 --> 01:36:25,166 antioxidant properties. 2614 01:36:26,000 --> 01:36:27,666 So there's this kind of working theory, 2615 01:36:27,666 --> 01:36:29,583 which is actually, if you're, if you're 2616 01:36:29,583 --> 01:36:32,958 methanobrevibacter or methanogens are 2617 01:36:32,958 --> 01:36:35,541 producing more methane, could that be an 2618 01:36:35,541 --> 01:36:37,416 adaptive response because methane has 2619 01:36:37,416 --> 01:36:39,458 anti-inflammatory antioxidant properties, 2620 01:36:39,458 --> 01:36:41,083 and actually your redox is really poor 2621 01:36:41,083 --> 01:36:42,250 and you need those things. 2622 01:36:42,666 --> 01:36:45,166 There's also some research that is now 2623 01:36:45,166 --> 01:36:46,916 showing us that our own cells have the 2624 01:36:46,916 --> 01:36:49,416 capacity to produce methane, and all 2625 01:36:49,416 --> 01:36:50,041 cells have the 2626 01:36:50,041 --> 01:36:51,500 capacity to produce methane. 2627 01:36:51,791 --> 01:36:53,625 And therefore, what we're seeing on a 2628 01:36:53,625 --> 01:36:55,708 breath test for SIBO, when methane is 2629 01:36:55,708 --> 01:36:58,583 elevated, the research at the moment says 2630 01:36:58,583 --> 01:37:01,708 the majority is probably from methanogens 2631 01:37:01,708 --> 01:37:04,041 in your gut, but a subset, it could 2632 01:37:04,041 --> 01:37:07,125 absolutely be coming from mitochondria, 2633 01:37:07,125 --> 01:37:08,750 cellular production. 2634 01:37:09,541 --> 01:37:11,166 And therefore, is there this kind of 2635 01:37:11,166 --> 01:37:13,000 adaptive response and the collateral 2636 01:37:13,000 --> 01:37:15,000 damage for some people is constipation, 2637 01:37:15,708 --> 01:37:17,291 but not everyone with positive methane 2638 01:37:17,291 --> 01:37:19,791 tests is constipated either, which kind 2639 01:37:19,791 --> 01:37:21,666 of again shows you just the 2640 01:37:21,666 --> 01:37:23,750 gray nature of the human body. 2641 01:37:25,250 --> 01:37:27,125 So yes, you know, you've got these things 2642 01:37:27,125 --> 01:37:28,875 that have to be considered. 2643 01:37:29,208 --> 01:37:30,958 Now, you're going to 2644 01:37:30,958 --> 01:37:33,833 suspect SIBO if there is bloating. 2645 01:37:34,083 --> 01:37:36,291 If you don't have any bloating, you just 2646 01:37:36,291 --> 01:37:38,000 don't have SIBO in my opinion, and 2647 01:37:38,000 --> 01:37:39,375 there's no point doing the test. 2648 01:37:39,875 --> 01:37:41,541 And if you did the test for some reason, 2649 01:37:41,541 --> 01:37:43,583 and you didn't have any bloating, and the 2650 01:37:43,625 --> 01:37:46,291 test was positive, I would argue that's a 2651 01:37:46,291 --> 01:37:48,208 false positive test, because the whole 2652 01:37:48,208 --> 01:37:51,083 premise of SIBO is excess gas production. 2653 01:37:51,708 --> 01:37:53,208 And therefore, you kind of have to have 2654 01:37:53,208 --> 01:37:55,666 bloating and excessive flatulence or 2655 01:37:55,666 --> 01:37:59,000 belching, because that's the main route 2656 01:37:59,000 --> 01:38:00,083 that that gas is going to 2657 01:38:00,083 --> 01:38:01,208 come out of you ultimately. 2658 01:38:02,708 --> 01:38:04,500 So that's kind of an easy one to 2659 01:38:04,500 --> 01:38:06,083 consider, you know, do I need to go down 2660 01:38:06,083 --> 01:38:07,750 the SIBO rabbit hole at all? 2661 01:38:08,208 --> 01:38:10,375 If you don't have bloating, probably not. 2662 01:38:10,375 --> 01:38:12,041 If you do have bloating, do you need to 2663 01:38:12,041 --> 01:38:13,666 go down the SIBO rabbit hole? 2664 01:38:14,583 --> 01:38:17,333 Maybe to some degree, but and I say that 2665 01:38:17,333 --> 01:38:18,791 because there are people that go down the 2666 01:38:18,791 --> 01:38:20,416 SIBO rabbit hole and stay down the rabbit 2667 01:38:20,416 --> 01:38:22,125 hole for two years trying to kill, kill, 2668 01:38:22,125 --> 01:38:24,083 kill, kill, kill the sober growth, when 2669 01:38:24,083 --> 01:38:26,250 actually it could be nervous system 2670 01:38:26,250 --> 01:38:29,375 dysregulation as an actual root cause to 2671 01:38:29,375 --> 01:38:30,416 why they've got SIBO. 2672 01:38:30,833 --> 01:38:32,333 Or actually they need to do much more 2673 01:38:32,333 --> 01:38:34,541 around motility and transit through the 2674 01:38:34,541 --> 01:38:35,750 stomach and small intestine. 2675 01:38:36,250 --> 01:38:37,250 And they just have an 2676 01:38:37,250 --> 01:38:39,875 undiagnosed upper GI condition maybe. 2677 01:38:41,166 --> 01:38:43,375 So yeah, the guts are really, really 2678 01:38:43,375 --> 01:38:45,916 complex one, but there's definitely a 2679 01:38:45,916 --> 01:38:47,333 strong connection between 2680 01:38:47,333 --> 01:38:49,000 the guts and energy production. 2681 01:38:49,541 --> 01:38:51,916 Partly obviously common sense, we digest 2682 01:38:51,916 --> 01:38:53,791 and absorb our nutrients there. 2683 01:38:53,791 --> 01:38:54,958 And therefore, if you're not doing that 2684 01:38:54,958 --> 01:38:56,833 very well, you're not getting those 2685 01:38:56,833 --> 01:38:57,708 nutrients to the 2686 01:38:57,708 --> 01:38:59,958 mitochondria to produce your energy. 2687 01:39:00,458 --> 01:39:02,500 So it is kind of the bread and butter 2688 01:39:02,500 --> 01:39:04,458 from a nutrient status perspective. 2689 01:39:04,458 --> 01:39:07,333 And then you've got 70 ish percent of 2690 01:39:07,333 --> 01:39:08,750 your immune system in the gut. 2691 01:39:08,750 --> 01:39:10,083 And therefore, when we think of immune 2692 01:39:10,083 --> 01:39:11,958 modulation and inflammation, we were 2693 01:39:11,958 --> 01:39:14,375 thinking partly about gut health and the 2694 01:39:14,375 --> 01:39:15,458 role that that's playing in 2695 01:39:15,458 --> 01:39:17,291 managing your inflammatory loads. 2696 01:39:18,666 --> 01:39:20,833 You've got neurotransmitters that 2697 01:39:20,833 --> 01:39:22,291 influencing things, you've got the gut 2698 01:39:22,291 --> 01:39:23,625 brain access that is going to be 2699 01:39:23,625 --> 01:39:24,666 massively involved in 2700 01:39:24,666 --> 01:39:25,500 some of these things. 2701 01:39:25,500 --> 01:39:28,500 So it's definitely a foundational piece. 2702 01:39:29,083 --> 01:39:31,375 The million dollar question is how much 2703 01:39:31,375 --> 01:39:34,208 is the gut driving other stuff? 2704 01:39:34,208 --> 01:39:35,208 And how much is that other 2705 01:39:35,208 --> 01:39:36,916 stuff driving the gut stuff? 2706 01:39:37,416 --> 01:39:39,375 Yeah, I was going to ask what your 2707 01:39:39,375 --> 01:39:41,291 thoughts are on the idea that everybody 2708 01:39:41,291 --> 01:39:42,500 who is ill has some 2709 01:39:42,500 --> 01:39:43,625 sort of GI dysfunction. 2710 01:39:44,750 --> 01:39:47,125 I think there's real truth to that. 2711 01:39:47,458 --> 01:39:48,375 And that's why a 2712 01:39:48,375 --> 01:39:49,833 multi-pronged approach is needed. 2713 01:39:50,333 --> 01:39:52,000 And again, it's not going into the whole 2714 01:39:52,000 --> 01:39:54,041 black and white either or debate. 2715 01:39:54,291 --> 01:39:56,000 It's like, well, we want to support the 2716 01:39:56,000 --> 01:39:57,541 gut, but we don't want to throw the 2717 01:39:57,541 --> 01:39:58,583 kitchen sink in the guts. 2718 01:39:58,583 --> 01:40:00,083 And we want to support the other stuff, 2719 01:40:00,458 --> 01:40:02,500 potentially simultaneously in some shape 2720 01:40:02,500 --> 01:40:04,291 or form, because that's how we're going 2721 01:40:04,291 --> 01:40:06,583 to be able to shift that physiological 2722 01:40:06,583 --> 01:40:08,291 state back into a 2723 01:40:08,291 --> 01:40:10,666 healthier equilibrium, as it were. 2724 01:40:11,291 --> 01:40:13,000 So it's kind of, again, multiple inputs 2725 01:40:13,000 --> 01:40:14,666 to nudge physiology back 2726 01:40:14,666 --> 01:40:15,666 to where it needs to be. 2727 01:40:16,166 --> 01:40:17,333 And there are two ways of doing that. 2728 01:40:17,333 --> 01:40:19,541 I guess one would be doing something more 2729 01:40:19,541 --> 01:40:22,166 gut focused and doing that, but doing it 2730 01:40:22,166 --> 01:40:23,958 for let's just say six, eight weeks, and 2731 01:40:23,958 --> 01:40:25,750 then moving on to the next phase of your 2732 01:40:25,750 --> 01:40:28,500 plan or taking more of a multi-pronged 2733 01:40:28,500 --> 01:40:29,833 approach where you're doing a bit of gut 2734 01:40:29,833 --> 01:40:32,416 and a bit of whatever else it might be 2735 01:40:32,416 --> 01:40:33,916 liver or mitochondria, 2736 01:40:33,916 --> 01:40:35,458 et cetera, et cetera. 2737 01:40:36,000 --> 01:40:36,791 So I don't think 2738 01:40:36,791 --> 01:40:38,166 there's a right or a wrong. 2739 01:40:38,166 --> 01:40:41,166 It's just, it's building the most logical 2740 01:40:41,166 --> 01:40:43,000 rationale for the protocol. 2741 01:40:44,000 --> 01:40:45,958 Yeah, that was very well put. 2742 01:40:46,291 --> 01:40:47,250 Just a quick question. 2743 01:40:48,000 --> 01:40:50,708 What are your thoughts on single dose, 2744 01:40:51,583 --> 01:40:54,583 the use of high single, excuse me, the 2745 01:40:54,583 --> 01:40:57,208 use of single nutrients and high doses, 2746 01:40:57,458 --> 01:40:58,375 things like thiamine. 2747 01:40:58,958 --> 01:41:00,375 Have you found those to be effective, 2748 01:41:00,375 --> 01:41:01,833 especially from a gut perspective? 2749 01:41:02,541 --> 01:41:03,958 Yeah, it's actually something I've only 2750 01:41:03,958 --> 01:41:07,000 just started sort of doing clinically. 2751 01:41:07,666 --> 01:41:09,583 I had Elliot Oberton on the podcast, so 2752 01:41:09,583 --> 01:41:11,500 I've become more and more aware of he's 2753 01:41:11,500 --> 01:41:13,208 doing amazing stuff, kind of getting that 2754 01:41:13,208 --> 01:41:15,375 information out there. 2755 01:41:16,541 --> 01:41:17,833 So yeah, and you look at some of the, 2756 01:41:17,833 --> 01:41:19,583 just the comments on his YouTube page and 2757 01:41:19,583 --> 01:41:20,333 all these sorts of things. 2758 01:41:20,333 --> 01:41:21,958 And there are lots of people that have 2759 01:41:21,958 --> 01:41:25,500 had wonderful improvements and healings 2760 01:41:25,500 --> 01:41:27,500 through doing this for gut health or 2761 01:41:27,500 --> 01:41:29,916 fibro and other conditions as well. 2762 01:41:29,916 --> 01:41:32,666 So it's definitely a legitimate option. 2763 01:41:32,666 --> 01:41:34,250 I think the thing that's, if I mean, 2764 01:41:34,250 --> 01:41:35,625 totally honest, that's kind of held me 2765 01:41:35,625 --> 01:41:39,500 back with it is there's no 2766 01:41:39,500 --> 01:41:40,875 way of knowing when to do it. 2767 01:41:40,875 --> 01:41:42,625 So it feels a bit like we're just going 2768 01:41:42,625 --> 01:41:44,125 to try this thing because we don't really 2769 01:41:44,125 --> 01:41:44,875 know what else to do. 2770 01:41:45,583 --> 01:41:47,833 It isn't like we can go and do a test. 2771 01:41:47,833 --> 01:41:48,750 It's like, oh, you are a 2772 01:41:48,750 --> 01:41:50,041 really good candidate for this. 2773 01:41:50,041 --> 01:41:51,458 It's almost like, well, we've tried these 2774 01:41:51,458 --> 01:41:52,458 things, they haven't worked. 2775 01:41:52,875 --> 01:41:53,708 Should we give this a go? 2776 01:41:54,291 --> 01:41:54,916 And there's not 2777 01:41:54,916 --> 01:41:56,875 necessarily anything wrong with that. 2778 01:41:56,875 --> 01:41:59,208 But obviously, it doesn't, it just feels 2779 01:41:59,208 --> 01:42:01,750 a bit like, as a practitioner trying to 2780 01:42:01,750 --> 01:42:04,041 be a bit more precise about things, 2781 01:42:05,125 --> 01:42:06,916 you know, you can just go and get some B1 2782 01:42:06,916 --> 01:42:09,000 and try it out and see kind of thing. 2783 01:42:09,500 --> 01:42:11,000 But that's the only way that we can 2784 01:42:11,000 --> 01:42:12,416 really do it at the end of the day. 2785 01:42:13,166 --> 01:42:15,291 Yeah, again, that was a great answer. 2786 01:42:15,500 --> 01:42:17,333 And Tony, you mentioned your podcast, 2787 01:42:17,375 --> 01:42:18,916 because I interviewed Elliot on the back 2788 01:42:18,916 --> 01:42:19,791 end of that one actually. 2789 01:42:20,500 --> 01:42:24,833 So it was, yeah, I like to think that if 2790 01:42:24,833 --> 01:42:28,500 somebody's going to trials Hido Simon for 2791 01:42:28,500 --> 01:42:33,375 a GI issue, it's probably the other point 2792 01:42:33,375 --> 01:42:35,416 that they should take into consideration 2793 01:42:35,416 --> 01:42:37,833 is the nervous system standpoint, the 2794 01:42:37,833 --> 01:42:38,666 nervous system piece. 2795 01:42:39,041 --> 01:42:40,750 I think if there is some level of 2796 01:42:40,750 --> 01:42:43,375 autonomic nervous system dysregulation, I 2797 01:42:43,375 --> 01:42:45,083 think Simon can be a needle mover. 2798 01:42:45,416 --> 01:42:48,458 I know we've found that with regards to 2799 01:42:48,458 --> 01:42:51,458 recommending Benfertiamine to customers 2800 01:42:52,541 --> 01:42:56,333 who have a lot of, I don't want to use 2801 01:42:56,333 --> 01:42:57,916 the word trauma, but emotional 2802 01:42:57,916 --> 01:42:59,791 dysregulation, when they sort of hit that 2803 01:42:59,791 --> 01:43:03,375 sort of north of a gram of Benfertiamine, 2804 01:43:03,375 --> 01:43:04,833 it doesn't happen all the time. 2805 01:43:04,833 --> 01:43:07,541 But just now and again, I will find that 2806 01:43:07,541 --> 01:43:09,583 someone sort of writes back and they'll 2807 01:43:09,583 --> 01:43:11,583 say, you know what, I've taken 2808 01:43:11,583 --> 01:43:16,083 Benfertiamine at the suggested doses and 2809 01:43:16,083 --> 01:43:19,208 all of a sudden, the anxiety sort of 2810 01:43:19,208 --> 01:43:21,625 dropped off the map and the 2811 01:43:21,625 --> 01:43:23,208 bowel issues have improved. 2812 01:43:24,000 --> 01:43:27,208 But yeah, as you've alluded to, well, not 2813 01:43:27,208 --> 01:43:29,291 alluded to, said, it's really hard to 2814 01:43:29,291 --> 01:43:32,041 sort of from a diagnostic standpoint, 2815 01:43:32,041 --> 01:43:33,583 sort of, okay, well, we're going to try 2816 01:43:33,583 --> 01:43:38,541 this intervention because data, it's 2817 01:43:38,541 --> 01:43:41,125 still sort of yet to be elucidated, I 2818 01:43:41,125 --> 01:43:43,541 think, when that intervention is maybe 2819 01:43:43,541 --> 01:43:49,208 best placed in a protocol. 2820 01:43:51,500 --> 01:43:55,500 I think, yeah, it's looking to start to 2821 01:43:55,500 --> 01:43:57,250 wrap up, but I think it would be great if 2822 01:43:57,250 --> 01:43:58,666 we could sort of also talk about the 2823 01:43:58,666 --> 01:44:00,083 detoxification side of things. 2824 01:44:01,708 --> 01:44:04,291 Are you one who feels that active 2825 01:44:04,291 --> 01:44:06,250 detoxification strategies are a good 2826 01:44:06,250 --> 01:44:08,875 idea, or do you sort of work off the 2827 01:44:08,875 --> 01:44:11,333 premise that if someone is struggling 2828 01:44:11,333 --> 01:44:14,125 with some sort of, yeah, fibro, ME, CFS, 2829 01:44:14,375 --> 01:44:16,541 that they should get the basics in place 2830 01:44:16,541 --> 01:44:19,625 and then work off the assumption that the 2831 01:44:19,625 --> 01:44:21,541 detox processes in the body, 2832 01:44:21,541 --> 01:44:23,833 glucuronidation, sulfation, etc., will 2833 01:44:23,833 --> 01:44:26,875 then start to naturally and come back 2834 01:44:26,875 --> 01:44:29,916 online and improve and the body will then 2835 01:44:29,916 --> 01:44:30,791 start to detox 2836 01:44:30,791 --> 01:44:33,208 whatever's in the badder fault. 2837 01:44:34,125 --> 01:44:36,375 Yeah, I think more the latter, 2838 01:44:36,375 --> 01:44:38,416 ultimately, like it's not that we 2839 01:44:38,416 --> 01:44:40,166 wouldn't do any sort of direct detox 2840 01:44:40,166 --> 01:44:41,958 support, but I certainly wouldn't be 2841 01:44:41,958 --> 01:44:43,375 putting any kind of 2842 01:44:43,458 --> 01:44:45,791 extensive detox protocol together. 2843 01:44:46,583 --> 01:44:48,500 You know, we start with elimination, so 2844 01:44:48,500 --> 01:44:50,791 hydration, pooing daily, we think about 2845 01:44:50,791 --> 01:44:53,375 the microbiome, we think about adequate 2846 01:44:53,375 --> 01:44:54,916 fiber intake, and we think 2847 01:44:54,916 --> 01:44:56,166 about it from that perspective. 2848 01:44:56,833 --> 01:44:57,916 And you know, there are studies showing 2849 01:44:57,916 --> 01:45:00,833 that as you increase fiber intake, there 2850 01:45:00,833 --> 01:45:03,666 is an increase in excretion of certain 2851 01:45:03,666 --> 01:45:04,916 heavy metals, for example. 2852 01:45:05,166 --> 01:45:06,000 So there is that kind of 2853 01:45:06,000 --> 01:45:07,500 binding capacity there. 2854 01:45:08,125 --> 01:45:09,708 And detox, you know, there's even a 2855 01:45:09,708 --> 01:45:11,875 paper, I can't remember who wrote it now, 2856 01:45:12,166 --> 01:45:14,916 but I mean, they basically said detox is 2857 01:45:14,916 --> 01:45:16,666 lifestyle, you know, it's not a protocol, 2858 01:45:17,041 --> 01:45:18,000 so it's a lifestyle. 2859 01:45:18,458 --> 01:45:20,708 So your movements, your breathing, your 2860 01:45:20,708 --> 01:45:23,041 hydration, your diet, if you can get 2861 01:45:23,041 --> 01:45:24,458 access to a sauna, wonderful. 2862 01:45:25,458 --> 01:45:27,416 Can you do some sort of lymphatic work, 2863 01:45:27,416 --> 01:45:28,041 whether that's dry 2864 01:45:28,041 --> 01:45:29,833 brushing or seeing a therapist? 2865 01:45:31,708 --> 01:45:33,375 You know, yes, there are key nutrients. 2866 01:45:33,666 --> 01:45:35,958 So most of them, ultimately, are really 2867 01:45:35,958 --> 01:45:37,416 important at some phase within 2868 01:45:37,416 --> 01:45:39,541 detoxification, your B vitamins, all of 2869 01:45:39,541 --> 01:45:40,750 the antioxidants, amino 2870 01:45:40,750 --> 01:45:42,625 acids are all important. 2871 01:45:42,833 --> 01:45:44,125 And then that takes us back to gut 2872 01:45:44,125 --> 01:45:44,958 health, just from a 2873 01:45:44,958 --> 01:45:46,791 digestive capacity perspective. 2874 01:45:47,583 --> 01:45:48,000 We've got to think 2875 01:45:48,000 --> 01:45:49,291 about the biliary system. 2876 01:45:49,291 --> 01:45:50,458 So I do use bitters a lot 2877 01:45:50,458 --> 01:45:52,666 with kind of the exceptions. 2878 01:45:52,666 --> 01:45:53,666 What I said at the beginning, by the way, 2879 01:45:53,666 --> 01:45:55,041 it's kind of, if I'm working with like a 2880 01:45:55,041 --> 01:45:57,250 mold client, like glutathione, it's the 2881 01:45:57,250 --> 01:45:58,375 bread and butter of kind of 2882 01:45:58,375 --> 01:45:59,708 detoxing some of this stuff. 2883 01:45:59,708 --> 01:46:01,041 So I use liposomal 2884 01:46:01,041 --> 01:46:02,916 glutathione a lot with clients. 2885 01:46:04,375 --> 01:46:05,958 I need to send you some of Dr. 2886 01:46:05,958 --> 01:46:07,291 Andrew Campbell's research 2887 01:46:07,291 --> 01:46:08,833 on glutathione and gliotoxin. 2888 01:46:09,541 --> 01:46:10,458 He's on the impression 2889 01:46:10,458 --> 01:46:12,000 that if you increase, 2890 01:46:13,333 --> 01:46:15,708 that if you provide glutathione, when 2891 01:46:15,708 --> 01:46:17,958 there's a high gliotoxin alone, you can 2892 01:46:17,958 --> 01:46:20,291 actually sort of impair that 2893 01:46:20,291 --> 01:46:24,875 immunological mismatch, so sort of from 2894 01:46:24,875 --> 01:46:28,041 M1 to M2 macrophage movement within the 2895 01:46:28,041 --> 01:46:28,958 brain and actually 2896 01:46:28,958 --> 01:46:30,083 increase neural inflammation. 2897 01:46:30,875 --> 01:46:32,458 Just his research. 2898 01:46:32,666 --> 01:46:34,125 I'll send you some research there. 2899 01:46:34,375 --> 01:46:36,916 But yeah, just an aside. 2900 01:46:37,375 --> 01:46:37,625 Yeah. 2901 01:46:38,791 --> 01:46:40,333 So yeah, we'd be supporting that. 2902 01:46:40,333 --> 01:46:41,791 And I think the biliary system is a 2903 01:46:41,791 --> 01:46:44,125 really, I think it's a really common area 2904 01:46:44,125 --> 01:46:46,041 that people need some support around. 2905 01:46:47,500 --> 01:46:48,875 So, you know, thinking of bitters, for 2906 01:46:48,875 --> 01:46:50,583 example, as ways to support that, 2907 01:46:50,583 --> 01:46:54,083 phosphatidylcholine is kind of trending 2908 01:46:54,083 --> 01:46:54,958 at the moment, I 2909 01:46:54,958 --> 01:46:56,125 think, ultimately as well. 2910 01:46:57,541 --> 01:46:59,250 But yeah, I do think really kind of 2911 01:46:59,250 --> 01:47:01,000 working on those foundations, getting the 2912 01:47:01,000 --> 01:47:03,000 nervous system in a more regulated state, 2913 01:47:03,000 --> 01:47:04,000 all of those things are 2914 01:47:04,000 --> 01:47:06,083 going to improve detox capacity. 2915 01:47:07,166 --> 01:47:08,291 And then it's a matter of, you know, 2916 01:47:08,291 --> 01:47:09,583 patients, ultimately. 2917 01:47:10,958 --> 01:47:12,791 So that's kind of definitely more the 2918 01:47:12,791 --> 01:47:13,625 approach that I would 2919 01:47:13,625 --> 01:47:14,583 take, I think, from it. 2920 01:47:14,916 --> 01:47:15,375 Okay, perfect. 2921 01:47:15,875 --> 01:47:17,791 And then last question for the day. 2922 01:47:18,541 --> 01:47:21,291 The hormonal thyroid 2923 01:47:21,291 --> 01:47:23,208 adrenal side of things. 2924 01:47:23,958 --> 01:47:25,166 Where do you stand on that? 2925 01:47:25,166 --> 01:47:26,416 Do you think that those sorts of 2926 01:47:26,416 --> 01:47:28,375 interventions are useful off the bat? 2927 01:47:29,208 --> 01:47:31,208 And by adrenal, I'm talking specifically 2928 01:47:31,541 --> 01:47:33,875 about things like adaptogenic herbs, etc. 2929 01:47:34,416 --> 01:47:35,958 Or do you just get the basic sort of 2930 01:47:35,958 --> 01:47:37,083 nutrients into place, your 2931 01:47:37,083 --> 01:47:39,375 B6s, B5s, magnesium, etc. 2932 01:47:39,875 --> 01:47:41,125 I think the basics always 2933 01:47:41,125 --> 01:47:42,666 need to be the priority. 2934 01:47:43,291 --> 01:47:45,708 I do use adaptogens with some clients. 2935 01:47:46,000 --> 01:47:47,583 And I think that sometimes 2936 01:47:47,583 --> 01:47:48,875 people just really want them. 2937 01:47:48,875 --> 01:47:50,875 So it's kind of like, it's providing that 2938 01:47:50,875 --> 01:47:53,291 support as well, ultimately. 2939 01:47:54,250 --> 01:47:56,000 I want a client at the moment who is just 2940 01:47:56,000 --> 01:47:57,875 benefiting from ashil gandha so much. 2941 01:47:58,458 --> 01:48:00,583 So she's just like the biggest 2942 01:48:00,583 --> 01:48:01,333 cheerleader for ashil 2943 01:48:01,375 --> 01:48:02,375 gandha, for example. 2944 01:48:03,750 --> 01:48:04,833 So I think they do 2945 01:48:04,833 --> 01:48:06,125 absolutely have a place. 2946 01:48:07,083 --> 01:48:07,791 You know, there's some interesting 2947 01:48:07,791 --> 01:48:08,875 research, ashil gandha 2948 01:48:08,875 --> 01:48:09,958 and sleep, for example. 2949 01:48:11,125 --> 01:48:13,041 So they can be helpful, I think, right 2950 01:48:13,041 --> 01:48:15,000 time, right place, and 2951 01:48:15,000 --> 01:48:16,833 something I definitely use. 2952 01:48:16,833 --> 01:48:21,041 But again, I think, oftentimes, I really 2953 01:48:21,041 --> 01:48:22,750 like the idea that the human body is a 2954 01:48:22,750 --> 01:48:25,083 self-organising, self-healing organism 2955 01:48:25,083 --> 01:48:26,291 given the right environment. 2956 01:48:26,500 --> 01:48:28,541 If we can improve that environment, then 2957 01:48:28,541 --> 01:48:30,875 there is that kind of positive snowball 2958 01:48:30,875 --> 01:48:32,041 effect that takes place. 2959 01:48:32,791 --> 01:48:34,458 So it's really focusing on that 2960 01:48:34,458 --> 01:48:35,958 environment, which is kind of, you know, 2961 01:48:35,958 --> 01:48:36,583 a lot of what we've 2962 01:48:36,583 --> 01:48:37,791 been talking about today. 2963 01:48:37,791 --> 01:48:39,416 Obviously, everything from the diets, the 2964 01:48:39,416 --> 01:48:41,375 air you breathe, thinking about the 2965 01:48:41,375 --> 01:48:43,333 quality of your home in the building, and 2966 01:48:43,333 --> 01:48:45,041 whether there's any damp issues, etc. 2967 01:48:45,916 --> 01:48:48,666 So yes, you know, and then the 2968 01:48:48,666 --> 01:48:50,125 supplements from those sort of 2969 01:48:50,125 --> 01:48:51,250 perspectives are of kind 2970 01:48:51,250 --> 01:48:52,125 of the cherry on the top. 2971 01:48:52,708 --> 01:48:53,458 Yeah, definitely. 2972 01:48:54,166 --> 01:48:55,291 And obviously, being a nutritional 2973 01:48:55,291 --> 01:48:57,333 therapist, you are not going to sort of 2974 01:48:57,333 --> 01:48:58,125 get involved in the 2975 01:48:58,125 --> 01:48:59,291 hormonal side directly. 2976 01:48:59,291 --> 01:49:01,041 But do you ever find that sort of maybe 2977 01:49:01,666 --> 01:49:04,625 suggesting or somebody sees a medical 2978 01:49:04,625 --> 01:49:06,750 doctor for hormonal support? 2979 01:49:06,750 --> 01:49:08,375 Is that ever effective, as you find? 2980 01:49:08,916 --> 01:49:10,791 Yeah, I think sometimes it really can be, 2981 01:49:11,041 --> 01:49:14,583 you know, I think it's, it's, I'm not 2982 01:49:14,583 --> 01:49:16,458 sure I could tell you when I feel it's 2983 01:49:16,458 --> 01:49:17,541 going to be most 2984 01:49:17,541 --> 01:49:19,250 valuable or an important step. 2985 01:49:19,500 --> 01:49:21,166 But I definitely have had clients over 2986 01:49:21,166 --> 01:49:22,000 the years whereby they 2987 01:49:22,000 --> 01:49:23,291 found it incredibly helpful. 2988 01:49:26,333 --> 01:49:27,750 So yeah, context is always going to 2989 01:49:27,750 --> 01:49:29,000 matter there from that perspective. 2990 01:49:29,250 --> 01:49:30,416 And again, you know, I think thyroid 2991 01:49:30,416 --> 01:49:31,291 adrenal stuff is 2992 01:49:31,291 --> 01:49:33,250 downstream of, of other stuff. 2993 01:49:33,250 --> 01:49:35,500 And therefore, how good a job have we 2994 01:49:35,500 --> 01:49:37,750 done of exploring that and intervening 2995 01:49:37,750 --> 01:49:39,333 appropriately on those things. 2996 01:49:40,416 --> 01:49:41,541 But that's it, you know, they are 2997 01:49:41,541 --> 01:49:43,583 absolutely downstream of other things. 2998 01:49:43,583 --> 01:49:44,750 And therefore, that comprehensive 2999 01:49:45,041 --> 01:49:47,291 evaluation becomes just so important. 3000 01:49:49,041 --> 01:49:51,291 So yeah, you know, it takes us back to 3001 01:49:51,291 --> 01:49:52,833 really that functional medicine matrix 3002 01:49:52,833 --> 01:49:55,208 and systems biology and understanding how 3003 01:49:55,208 --> 01:49:56,500 all of these things are interconnected, 3004 01:49:56,958 --> 01:49:58,166 and how all of these things are 3005 01:49:58,166 --> 01:50:00,000 bi-directionally interconnected. 3006 01:50:00,916 --> 01:50:01,500 Definitely. 3007 01:50:02,541 --> 01:50:03,541 I couldn't have thought 3008 01:50:03,541 --> 01:50:04,875 of a better place to end. 3009 01:50:04,875 --> 01:50:06,833 And with, yeah, thank you 3010 01:50:06,833 --> 01:50:08,000 so much to your patients. 3011 01:50:08,000 --> 01:50:09,208 Thank you so much to your time. 3012 01:50:09,208 --> 01:50:10,000 You've had to put up with 3013 01:50:10,000 --> 01:50:11,041 me for the last two hours. 3014 01:50:11,333 --> 01:50:12,791 So that's, that's no 3015 01:50:13,041 --> 01:50:14,625 mean feat in and of itself. 3016 01:50:14,958 --> 01:50:16,041 So thank you. 3017 01:50:16,750 --> 01:50:19,000 Alex, where can people find you should 3018 01:50:19,000 --> 01:50:21,458 they wish to work with you if they are 3019 01:50:21,458 --> 01:50:22,791 struggling with these sorts of issues and 3020 01:50:22,791 --> 01:50:23,625 have sort of on the ground? 3021 01:50:24,208 --> 01:50:27,125 Yeah, my website is just alexmanos.co.uk. 3022 01:50:28,375 --> 01:50:30,291 My Instagram handle that I'm not 3023 01:50:30,291 --> 01:50:31,416 massively active on these 3024 01:50:31,416 --> 01:50:33,500 days, but is alexandamanos. 3025 01:50:35,125 --> 01:50:36,500 And yeah, either of those two are really 3026 01:50:36,500 --> 01:50:37,791 the best places to find me. 3027 01:50:38,458 --> 01:50:38,666 Yeah. 3028 01:50:39,000 --> 01:50:41,208 And for those listening, Alex has a great 3029 01:50:41,208 --> 01:50:43,541 podcast slash YouTube channel. 3030 01:50:44,041 --> 01:50:46,083 That's definitely worth visiting. 3031 01:50:46,791 --> 01:50:48,916 If you are, yeah, if you're interested in 3032 01:50:48,916 --> 01:50:50,458 more of what he does, as I mentioned 3033 01:50:50,458 --> 01:50:53,666 earlier, I found his podcast with Elliot 3034 01:50:53,666 --> 01:50:54,666 there too, and it was 3035 01:50:54,666 --> 01:50:55,500 definitely insightful. 3036 01:50:55,916 --> 01:50:58,708 So again, thank you for the time, Alex. 3037 01:50:59,416 --> 01:51:02,000 And yeah, it was great to chat to you. 3038 01:51:02,416 --> 01:51:02,791 Likewise. Thank you,