Welcome to the VP Life Podcast, the show

where we bring you actionable health

advice from leading minds.

I'm your host, Rob.

My guest today is Alex Manos, a

functional medicine provider who

specializes in working with individuals

with chronic fatigue syndrome.

Expect to learn the history of chronic

fatigue syndrome, also known as malleGic

and cephalomyelitis we can say that three

times for OST the triggers and root

causes of chronic fatigue syndrome and

actionable steps you can start taking

today to reclaim your life.

Now, on to the

conversation with Alex Manos.

Good morning, Alex.

It's great to have you join us today.

It's going to be quite the episode, I

think, and the timing for our discussion

today is actually pretty ideal.

As it wraps up the last few podcasts I've

done on mitochondrial dysfunction,

cellular metabolism, NCAS,

environmental toxins, etc.

Anyway, you're at the start of our

conversation today, but before we sort of

dive into CFS and how individuals should

start thinking about the condition and

how they can manage it themselves, would

you mind just introducing yourself and

how you ended up in this sort of

functional nutrition space?

Yeah, well, thank you

for having me on, Robert.

It's been taking us a

while, but we're here.

So yeah, I guess my story, keeping it

short, is I had a long history of IBS,

ultimately, as a child and teenage.

I eventually got diagnosed

when I was 18 from the GP.

And as anyone who's been diagnosed knows,

I got given some peppermint oil capsules

and was told that I'm just going to have

to figure out a way to

manage it ultimately.

And it really did peak when I was 18.

So in regards to the severity,

there were times when I was in a fetal

position holding my stomach just with

crippling abdominal pain.

And I had some of the common symptoms

that will come with it.

I was napping for up to

two hours in the afternoon.

I was at boarding school, so everyone

else was out playing sports.

And I was kind of just in my beds,

hunking down, trying to

get through to dinner.

Brain fog, I had

terrible skin growing up.

So there was a lot of

other things kind of at play.

But I think the root of many of those

were the fact that I had quite

significant digestive

imbalances, ultimately.

So the gut issues and the inflammation

from that also meant that I had a lot of

musculoskeletal issues as a teenager.

So from 15, 16 onwards, I was just

getting injury after injury.

So I see a lot of physiotherapists,

osteopaths, massage therapists.

And I think that a mixture of just my gut

issues and seeing these professionals

meant that I just started to get a real

interest in the human body.

And then fast forward to after

university, I read a

book by Patrick Holford.

Well, most of his books, but I read his

gut's book, did it to the letter, did it

alongside some gut focused hypnotherapy.

And within two weeks, every single

symptom that I was suffering with

completely disappeared.

And it just blew my mind.

And not just sort of digestive symptoms.

I would put my head down on the pillow,

fall asleep, and I would

wake up eight hours later.

I'm not sure I'd ever done

that in my life before then.

Backaches from a rugby

tackle completely disappeared.

So there was like a total reset.

And from then on, I guess I haven't

really looked back in

trying to learn more about it.

So I went and studied at the

Institute of Optimum Nutrition.

I went then and got my master's in

personalized nutrition.

I studied with the Institute for

Functional Medicine.

And I've kind of branched

out a little bit since then.

So I've done a diploma in

transformational life coaching.

I've trained in transformational breath.

And I was in the first cohort of the

Synthesis Institute Psychedelic

Practitioner Training Program as well.

So I've kind of tried to add a few more

strings to my bow to help people because

especially with these sorts of

conditions, they're

complex, they're multifactorial.

And I think the more therapies, for want

of a better word, that you can apply, the

better our chances of

success are ultimately.

Yeah, no, that's quite the story.

And I know you also are involved in a

company called HealthPath, I believe.

Yes.

Can you tell us a little more about that?

Excuse me.

Yeah.

One of the co-founders of HealthPath and

HealthPath Pro, and HealthPath is

ultimately a platform whereby the public

can get access to some of these sort of

functional advanced tests.

So we have a gut microbiome test.

We have a SIBO breath test.

We did have a slide record still test.

The lab just stopped running that one.

And we have some food

sensitivity testing as well.

And then essentially, our customers will

complete a couple of symptom surveys.

One of them sort of more closed-ended

questions, one of them sort of more

open-ended questions.

So we get the context of what's going on

with their health, why

they've done the test.

And I've got a team of nutritional

therapists that are looking at those

symptom profiles, looking at the test

results, and then creating some health

plans on the back of kind of that

subjective and objective data.

So we get a lot of people with IBS, IBD,

autoimmune conditions, fibromyalgia,

chronic fatigue syndrome, and also just

people interested in sort of their

microbiome, ultimately, doing the testing

to see how much is the gut and the gut

microbiome potentially contributing to

what's going on for them.

So yeah, that's kind of the high level.

Now, the CEO is

actually an old client of mine.

So it's a little bit

like Al from XL Coffee.

He was an old client of mine.

He's the people that got really

passionate about health, ultimately, and

helping others achieve health.

And so Richard Naimi is sort of the true

founder of HealthPath, ultimately, who

had a lot of health issues and functional

medicine really helped him and get his

life back on track, ultimately, and

wanted to kind of pass that forward.

Yeah, no, I think it's an amazing

platform you've built.

And something that's definitely going to

be useful for anyone listening today is

they sort of, as we talk about this

concept of CFS and how people can start

working through it to an extent

themselves, but then having something

like that platform like that on the back

end of that way, they maybe don't

necessarily want to or can afford to see

a GP or a functional therapist who

charges four to 600 pounds an hour.

I think that's an incredible service.

And just is, yeah, it really does fill a

much needed gap in the market.

Yeah, I know, Al's an interesting one.

I'm still trying to

get him onto the podcast.

And I was quite distraught to see the

other day that they're

about to run out of coffee.

So I've got to, I made a very quick order

while there was still some there.

But anyway,

all right, CFS, I suppose we

might as well jump into it.

This isn't a question, ironically, not

that I've actually

asked in the podcast before.

But how would you define CFS, sort of

this this concept of milder,

conservative, milder as it's also known?

Yes, from a clinician's perspective,

obviously, there's some interesting

history there, if

you're familiar with that.

But yeah, yeah, it's interesting, I think

that there are different definitions by

different organizations, which doesn't

help the process in some ways.

But I guess, you know, the textbook

features are going to be someone that is

experiencing debilitating fatigue for a

period of six months or more, that isn't

improved by sleep, and that is

exacerbated by physical exertion.

And some of those organizations will

incorporate additional symptoms.

I think there's an American organization

that talks about either brain fog,

or, oh, I forget now, but one other

symptom, one of those has to be included

within the criteria to receive the

diagnosis, which seems a

little bit odd, ultimately.

But yes, I think, you know, six months or

longer of debilitating fatigue that's

impacting day to day quality of life,

that isn't improved by rest or sleep, and

that is exacerbated by physical exertion,

a kind of, I guess, the markers in there

in the consensus amongst all of these

different organizations.

Yeah, that's a fairly sort

of simple way of advocating.

And I think we're

definitely aligned there.

I think I mentioned this to Gillian

Crowther last week, when we were talking

about the cell danger response, which I

know we'll touch on a little later.

But I think the one silver lining, maybe

you could call it, of the pandemic and

long COVID is that I brought this idea of

sort of recalcitrant, recalcitrant, or

persistent viral fatigue into the

spotlight, which I think is a good thing

as, yeah, well, it is.

And while sadly, I don't think we're much

closer to really a sort of a one pill

solution, I do think at least from a

social standpoint that it's broken down

some of the stigma around

the condition maybe because,

well, and I think that's a win for a lot

of people because they don't, you know,

when you sort of are going

through these conditions,

well, as you know, you often get sort of

told that it's just in your head and it's

just, it's not real.

I think there's definitely some roots

there going back to Gulf War Syndrome,

which I think just looking into the

history of the condition is quite

interesting because everything you've

just mentioned is what soldiers from that

era came back with, with these mystery

illnesses of extreme

fatigue, aching joints.

And yeah, I think it's just sort of

building on that and it's providing just

more awareness of the fact that this is a

real condition and it's not just this

sort of psychosomatic

state that people just happen to fall

into and then never get out of.

But yeah, that's my

tangent for the day done.

I'll try and keep it at least somewhat on

track going forwards.

No, no, I agree.

And I think, you know, some of the

comments that people can receive with

chronic fatigue syndrome just perpetuate

the whole situation.

You know, oh, you look fine, you look

healthy, what's wrong

with you kind of thing.

Like it's it's sort of a silent disease

in that way that people can look

perfectly well and yet be bed bound

because of the severity of their fatigue

and other symptoms they're experiencing.

So it is incredibly challenging.

And I think, you know, it's it's made

worse with those sorts of belief systems

or comments that we can receive.

So, yes, I would agree with

you on all of that, Robert.

Yeah, no, I think it just at the end of

the day, having someone who's just

willing to acknowledge that you have an

actual issue will move the

needle as much as anything else.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Anyway, so sort of to dig into it.

I have a few ideas and of course, I

suppose this speaks to my framework and

understanding of the condition.

But I reckon if we start talking about

the potential triggers of CFS and then

start to look downstream at the sort of

more immunological cellular and then sort

of the hormonal endocrine systems that

are affected, that that

should cover most of it.

Of course, we'll cover the gut in there,

too, which at least from a functional

medicine standpoint is really the

starting point for a lot of this.

From there, I think it would be pretty

cool if we put together a basic framework

of sorts that the listener can then

utilize at least as a starting point if

they're trying to troubleshoot these

issues themselves and at which point if

they do struggle, obviously reaching out

to HealthPath or a company like that, I

think is a great option.

Yeah, does that sound fair enough?

Have I missed anything there?

Would you sort of agree with that?

Yeah, I think exploring all of that is

going to be really helpful and there are

different lenses that we can

take to look at that as well.

So I think there's some really

interesting concepts that we

can kind of cover within that.

Yeah, awesome.

OK, let's dive into the triggers.

Now, of course, before I get into my list

of which I have a few and I'd like to

discuss those with you, I'd like to sort

of get your perspective.

As the audience knows, my background is

in Biochem and working through some of

these issues myself and have helped a few

customers through work.

But most of what I do is

definitely theory-based.

I don't have that level of clinical or

practical experience that you necessarily

do or that you do have.

So what do you generally see as being the

most sort of obvious triggers, mold, etc?

Yeah, so I'm going to potentially

contradict myself here, but I'm going to

try and explain why I'm

going to contradict myself.

So if we think about potential triggers

of CFSME, you know, we're going to be

thinking about microbial.

So this could be bacterial, viral,

parasitic or fungal.

We could be thinking

about things like trauma.

That will certainly be

a contributory factor.

We can be thinking

about environmental toxins.

So mold and mycotoxins, I do think is

quite a common contributory factor.

And I try and use that term contributory

factor because I think

that it's rarely one thing.

And I'm going to expand on

that in a second as well.

But we've also got, you know, potentially

heavy metals like mercury, toxicity,

lead, cadmium that can be

contributing here as well.

We have obviously there is the gut

component, whether that could be related

to the microbial part or whether that's

related to just intestinal permeability

for whatever reason, that intestinal

permeability is there.

Intestinal permeability

being this idea of leaky gut.

AKA leaky gut.

Yes, thank you.

And then also we can think and again,

this could blend with the

microbial, but oral health.

This is kind of one of the

new frontiers in the research.

Ultimately, what we're understanding

about the oral microbiome and our oral

health and how this impacts

on systemic health as well.

And then there can be again, as a

contributory factor, I don't think it

would ever probably really be

considered a trigger as such.

But food, you know, food allergies, food

sensitivities, food intolerances could

potentially be contributing to a reduced

ability of the cell to produce energy,

which is fundamentally

what we're talking about here.

Now, there are two things I want to add

to this, which is if the cell has reduced

capacity to produce energy, then none of

these things really work anyway.

So you've got suddenly this

bi-directional relationship whereby we

understand the importance of

mitochondrial health and energy

production in maintaining an intact gut

lining and in

maintaining a healthy microbiome.

And therefore,

actually, which even came first?

Was it a reduction in capacity to produce

energy that led to dysbiosis or

imbalances within the gut

microbiome and leaky guts?

Or was it the imbalances in the gut

microbiome and leaky gut for whatever

reason that may be that then led to

reduced capacity of the

cell to produce energy?

So it's really important, I think, to

take that sort of functional medicine

systems biology approach where

understanding that most of these things

we're talking about are all

bi-directional relationships.

And while that can sounds a little bit

daunting and confusing and like, oh,

great, what do I do with that then?

I think it can also be quite empowering

because it means that we can take this

sort of multi-pronged approach to

supporting the bodily systems, knowing

that we're having actually multiple

benefits and impacts at the same time.

And just the other thing, because I said

there were two things I wanted to touch

on, was the concept of allostatic load,

you know, the accumulative wear and tear

on the cell from just life, you know, and

our exposome, which is basically our

entire life experience and exposures,

everything we've breathed, everything

we've thought,

everything we've eaten, etc.

So what we know in the research and what

gets discussed a lot is, you know, we

basically are going to be experiencing a

cumulative wear and

tear at a cellular level.

And we may hit a threshold whereby we

don't have the psycho-emotional

physiological resources to maintain

homeostasis, to maintain

equilibrium, to maintain health.

And there is going to be a collapse in

our health, in our physiology, in those

interconnected bodily systems that is

going to manifest for some maybe as CFS

ME, but for others maybe

as an autoimmune condition.

And obviously there's been a discussion

anyway around the

interconnection there as well.

So it is very complex, I think.

And I'm really, as I think a lot of

people are moving away from this idea of

trying to find the root cause, because

what I think might look like the root

cause when you map out someone's timeline

is really just the final

straw that broke the camel's back.

You've got everything that happened

before that, which is why that trigger

was the trigger in the first place.

So I think this is where sometimes we've

got it wrong, whereby someone, let's just

say, gets glandular fever.

So we think about the Epstein-Barr virus

and we go, "Oh, EBV was your trigger, and

therefore we just need like an antiviral

protocol or a viral protocol,

and you'll be back on track."

When actually the only reason why the

virus became problematic was because

often, in my experience, working with a

teenager in school, they're often the

academic and the athlete, and they've got

pressure to get into the

university, et cetera, et cetera.

There's just an accumulative strain on

the systems and it's meant that they've

hit their threshold.

So I think it's really important when

we're thinking about someone's timeline,

basically their life story, we're trying

to understand where are these stresses

and strains, where have they come from?

Has it been through courses of

antibiotics or has it been through family

dynamics or were they bullied or what was

their diet like or did they live in a

water-damaged property?

What infections, what

diagnoses have they received?

And then you can start to get a little

bit more of, I think, a helpful model in

regards to this individual, "This is

their story, this is their experience,"

and then we get a sense of where we might

want to go to support them.

Yeah, no, I think that just points to the

need for a personalised approach.

It really does.

I think there's just so much chicken and

egg when dealing with a condition like

this, as you sort of alluded to earlier.

I do like the fact that you brought up

the concept of an elastatic load.

I don't know if you're familiar with Dr. Eric Balc Harvage? Yeah, I think that's a very important point, too, that is to keep the sense of

the mischievousness of energy production.

And that's consequently, it starts to

downregulate itself to the point where it

is able to find its own equilibrium again

in a reduced state of energy production.

So it's trying to find that lowest common

denominator where it's essentially still

functional, although at a

point, I think that's, I like that lens,

looking through it as the fact that

there's not something wrong, it's just

the fact that the cell and the body oil

in the specific sense, the area in which

is an issue has become downregulated.

And yeah, I like that lens, I like

looking through that standpoint.

Alex, you mentioned heavy metals earlier,

and I'd like to ask a

quick follow up question there.

I think everyone and their aunt generally

test positive for heavy metals.

I don't know if you see that in clinical

practice a lot, but from some of the

research I've done, I've noted that when

there is a lot of inflammation in the

body, for whatever reason, that you're

going to then have an inability for the

body to properly detox, you're going to

have impaired lymph activity, you're

going to have compromised maybe bowel

flow or hepatic liver function.

And then subsequently, you're then going

to end up with an accumulation of these

environmental toxins.

Now I know that there's a lot of

bioenvironmental toxins,

heavy metals, molds, etc.

Now I know there's a lot of talk about

this, this at the moment, it's quite

invoke, I think, talking about the fact

that if you drink water out of any

plastic bottle, you're going to be dead

and five seconds flat.

But do you think that these are necessary

and just plain devil's advocate, by the

way, because I fully subscribe to the

model that these

environmental toxins are an issue.

But do you think that there

are a trigger in their own right?

Or are they just a downstream consequence

of the body not necessarily being in a

position to effectively

get rid of these chemicals?

I would say both, dependent on the

individual, ultimately.

So my thinking around this, certainly

with heavy metals, if we think of heavy

metals, because it's slightly different,

you could say in some ways from a micro

toxins, for example, but heavy metals,

the two primary mechanisms by which they

cause havoc on our cells is

inflammation, oxidative stress.

And therefore, the question becomes, you

know, why can some of us be walking down

the high street feeling relatively well,

asymptomatic, and have positive heavy

metal tests or micro toxin tests.

And you know, I think you've always got

to put the environmental toxin within the

context of someone's

capacity to deal with it, basically.

So what is someone's

antioxidant status like?

What is someone's immune resilience like,

meaning what kind of anti inflammatory

sort of approach or

benefit can they take?

So I don't think again, it's ever just

the micro toxin or just the heavy metal.

It is a why is this accumulated as you

were sort of alluding to?

And secondly, have you lost capacity to

manage that's going back to the

allostatic load and this idea that the

body's maintaining

equilibrium as long as it can do.

And therefore, there's going to be a

certain amount of heavy metal or micro

toxin mold, it can accumulate and

maintain homeostasis.

And that level that it can accumulate is

going to be based on your anesthetic

load, your nutrient status, your bio

flow, everything, your overall health and

your overall physiological function.

So again, it's got to just be put within

the context of the body and the person

and how they're able to handle that

ultimately, what's their overall

resilience like within this?

Because it's true, you know, inflammation

will absolutely down regulate various

liver enzymes that detoxify some of these

things, but also chronic stress will down

regulate detoxification because you're

distributing your resources according to

the state of that nervous system.

So if you've got someone who is in some

state of fight or flight, let's just say

they have an aura ring and you know,

their HRV is down in

the 20s all the time.

That is someone who isn't in a state to

heal, you know, they are in a mobilized

state whereby at a cellular level, they

are in a state of stress, they are

unsafe, there's danger

somewhere that is being detected.

And therefore, resources are being

distributed to fight or flight or freeze.

And again, you are going to get an

accumulation of environmental toxins, you

are going to get compromised digestive

health, you're going to get compromised

gut lining health, because those things

just aren't important

to that point in time.

So I think there are some real

foundational pieces that have to be

considered before even sort of thinking

about what's the appropriate protocol for

this person, based on any of that kind of

functional testing that you might have

done, because, you know, they might have

SIBO, a good chunk of

people with CFS do have SIBO.

But is that because of the

state of their nervous system?

And actually, if you support them in that

side of things, then

the SIBO just disappears.

So yeah, it's just another key

consideration,

ultimately, within all of this.

So yes, you like going back to your

question a little bit there, Robert, if

someone's got a positive

environmental toxin test,

and I don't have I don't know if there's

like an obvious answer here or black and

white answer, there never really is.

But if you were able to improve their

nutrient status, if you were able to

reduce the oxidative stress, if you were

able to reduce the inflammation in kind

of independent of that toxic burden, to

some degree, you

would be able to do that.

Would that person get noticeable

improvement in symptoms, but still have a

chunk of that trigger or

environmental toxin left?

And I believe, yes, you

know, that's quite possible.

So do we need to get do we need to detox

totally and get like a

negative test result?

Or actually, do we just need

to get them feeling better?

You know, and that's where you know, you

never really want to be treating the test

results or the page.

Yeah, no, I couldn't

have said a bit of myself.

And yeah, I think it really does speak to

the importance of looking at a client's

symptoms, or what patient's symptoms or

an individual symptoms and sort of

acknowledging those as maybe the

benchmark of health.

I think a lot of practitioners, at least

in my experience, maybe not a lot, but

maybe neuro practitioners tend to sort of

get caught up with the

number that's on the page.

And I think that can sometimes be to the

detriment of the individual in question.

Definitely.

Yeah, just sort of,

I sort of I'd like to

move on in a second.

But for the listener,

we've discussed a lot of triggers,

everything from some sort of the some

from, yeah, viral infections, to

bacterial infections, things like tick

bites, to potential molds and mycotoxins.

For those listening who maybe are just

sort of trying to figure this out

themselves to start with, how do you how

would you advise them to start when there

isn't necessarily an obvious

sign of or beginning or trigger?

Obviously, if you have something

potentially like Lyme disease, there's

going to be a bullseye rash in all

likelihood, that's a pretty good

indicator of where the issue sort of

starts has started off.

But for individuals who just sort of

slowly enter this sort of malaise of

dysfunction, how do you normally sort of

work through that process when there

obviously is a lot going on, but there's

sort of, yeah, like, as I said, and sorry

for being verbose, no sort of clear

signal, as it were, as to what's maybe

initiated the problem?

Yeah, it's a good question, especially

when there isn't sort of

an obvious trigger as such.

I think you know, you always want to be,

you always want to be

thinking about that timeline.

So one of the analogies I use is, you

know, we're trying to get to the first or

first few dominoes that fell over and

pick those back up to have any chance of

obviously dealing with the rest.

So when we think of like cellular energy

production, there are some real

foundational things that

would need to be ruled out.

And again, I think one of the challenges

we have with kind of CFS me is, is the

breadth of debilitation, if that's the

right word, like some people are still

working, but are struggling with their

chronic fatigue syndrome, some people are

totally bed bound and can

barely hold a conversation.

And they're all put under the same

umbrella

fundamentally, which is just crazy.

And I think that's why there's, there's a

lot of friction and a lot of heat in some

of these kind of conversations, because

actually, who are we talking about?

These are two very

different types of people.

But you know, if we think of, if we try

and maybe go through the entire spectrum,

we're thinking, okay,

what's your nutrient status?

Because for some people, it could be, you

know, like an iron deficiency anemia, or

a B12 deficiency that's actually

contributing to that fatigue.

So at the early stages, there are some

really basic things that obviously have

to be really ruled out.

We will do want to be

thinking around gut health.

So then we start thinking about how many

courses of antibiotics have you had?

And what's your diet been like over

different stages of life?

Ultimately, what's your

alcohol intake been like?

What's your sort of drug sort

of intake or usage been like?

I think adverse childhood events is a

really big one as well.

So that has to be considered.

And, you know, understandably, the public

often don't understand there can be a

connection between those first few years

of life and why you ended up with a

disease when you were 40, for example,

but we see in the research partly related

to this idea of allostatic lows, that

there's a real connection there.

So I do think going back to day one, if

not earlier, is actually a really

important way to sort of move forward to

ensure we're not missing

any pieces of the puzzle.

You know, questions around have you lived

in a property that's had any visible

mold, or just a historical water leak?

Or do you feel better when you're out of

your property on

holiday or visiting a friend?

Or have you noticed sort of symptoms

coming on when

entering certain properties?

Just to get a sense of if there is

anything there from a sort of mold

mycotoxin sort of perspective, what's

their oral health like?

Do they have any amalgam fillings that we

just need to be a

little bit mindful about?

And these sorts of things.

So I think it's just it's a mixture of

understanding someone's actual just

journey, and the key events within it,

and then asking specific questions that

are the best we can do to get a sense of

do we need to go further with this

inquiry, which might be then a mycotoxin

test or whatever it may be.

You know, have you been

knowingly bitten by a tick?

Or, you know, did you have a dog?

Have you lived in the countryside?

These sorts of things can

all be considered as well.

I've had a couple of clients just spring

to mind who, you know, moved into a

property that was rural, and it was

surrounded by fields, and they were just

aware of the tractors spraying stuff all

over the crops that

they were surrounded by.

And you just start thinking, okay, there

could very much be an environmental

exposure there, that has been

contributing to why they're

now feeling the way they do.

So even little things like that, that if

you don't ask the question, you might

never know that they live surrounded by

fields that are sprayed with all sorts of

different pesticides, herbicides,

fungicides throughout the year.

So yes, I think a mixture of questioning

and just plotting someone's timeline.

You know, what was

the first 10 years like?

What were your teenage years like?

What happened in your 20s?

And then, you know, asking the specific

questions just to try and

rule in or rule out any of that.

Did you have glandular fever,

etc.

So I think, you know, that's the that's

the only way to go about it really.

And then I do find the HRV monitoring in

some people can be really helpful in

others is feels really unhelpful and can

be just frustrating sometimes.

Yeah, that was actually going to be my

next question was about HRV.

I've always sort of looked at it as more

of a performance metric because when you

have somebody who is definitely in a

state of disease or unwellness, was a

better word, their HRV is going to be

tanged almost regardless.

At least that's been my experience.

Again, not a clinician.

So I don't necessarily have that hands on

understanding of the technology.

But do you think it is, I mean, evidently

to do, but how do you utilize it from

that standpoint, if you

sort of get what I mean?

Is it a tool that you find is able to

provide sort of that longitudinal data

that is consistently objectively useful?

Or does it just become a bit sort of

almost background or shifts?

It's a bit like some of these new tests

that are looking at DNA methylation that

show that you have a high level of

information there before you're going to

either die tomorrow or

in a thousand years' time.

They don't necessarily provide a

quantitative standpoint

of actually what's wrong.

Maybe some of the new

true age diagnostic tests do.

And I'm sorry, I'm just being a verbose

again, but they just provide this sort of

this blanket statement, i.e. you are

inflamed, you have a terrible score.

Do you find that to be

this similar with HRV?

I think I honestly have found it helpful

in certain individuals and that's not

based on the individual, but more just

like the context, what I mean there.

So just to give examples,

I find one of two things.

Either it's really low, you know, it can

be in the tens, twenties, low thirties,

or it's really high and symptomatically

lifestyle that person looks, feels like

actually they're in more of like a

freeze, functional freeze type states.

And in both those situations, I think it

can be helpful in the sense that if

you've got someone with really low HRV,

then you know, we're being informed that

that person is in, people

call it different things.

I've heard it as being

called sort of a mobilized state.

They're in that kind of fight or flight,

they're putting resources to sort of

fight or flight and survival ultimately.

So they're not detoxing, they're not

digesting as well as

they could be, etc, etc.

That is someone who most likely will not

respond to antimicrobials as well as

someone who's got better HRV.

They're more likely to have a Herxheimer

type reaction and therefore you might not

even go there to begin

with, with that person.

You might work on some of the metabolic

aspects of things and look to get that

heart rate variability up a little bit

before going in with antimicrobials to

avoid just a Herxheimer

die-off type situation.

So it can be helpful because it can to

some degree inform when is the right time

to do the intervention that

you are thinking of doing.

And at the under end of the spectrum, if

you've got someone the way you're

thinking that actually it looks like

they're in more of a freeze state, then

that is someone who is almost guaranteed

to have, they're going to have to feel

worse before they feel better because

they're going to have

to move out of a freeze.

And with that comes immobilization that

might manifest as you

know, anxiety, for example.

And you know, I just heard I have a

friend slash colleague who I really

admire, Marek Doyle, who, who would, who

shared a kind of a anecdotal story

whereby he was warning someone, this was

sort of the situation they're in, the

plan they put into place led to some

anxiety come up and the client thought

they were having a

negative reaction to the protocol.

But Marek monitoring HRV as he does with

all of his clients saw that

actually HRV was improving.

This was someone coming out

of kind of a freeze state.

And therefore, the reaction they were

having, it was something that they were

going to have to navigate through.

Ultimately, it was like it was a good

thing, ultimately, because they were

coming out of this state.

And that's the only

way it's going to work.

And you wouldn't have known that if you

weren't tracking heart rate variability

at that point in time, you might have

just agreed with them always

sounds like a die off reaction.

Yeah, let's back off

some of these supplements.

So it can help inform you in

regards to the interventions.

Is it working?

Is it not?

Is it the right time?

Is it not?

So I think it can have real

value from that perspective.

And then if you are able to obviously get

improvement month on month, it's just

obviously incredibly motivating and

inspiring for the clients because they've

got this objective biomarker that things

are starting to move underneath the hood.

And I've certainly had clients whereby it

looks like HRV starting to track in the

right way, but symptomatically, they

haven't yet noticed improvements.

So again, it gives them a positive

reinforcement that this stuff is working

under the hood, things are

going in the right direction.

You just haven't been able to experience

that on a symptom level yet.

But we know that what we're doing is

having a positive impact on physiology

because HRV is starting to trend upwards.

So sometimes it can be helpful.

And then the reasons I think when

sometimes it doesn't work is primarily

when it just, you know, it's stuck and

it's not trending upwards.

And then it just

becomes really frustrating.

And every morning you're looking at your

data going, "Oh, I'm still just where I

am and nothing's working."

And then you start to get that negative

reinforcement that something's broken or

I'm not able to get well and actually it

becomes a real negative

thing.

Yeah, I mean, that can be a helpful

metric in and of itself.

Exactly.

Yeah, if you can put it within the right

context, if you have the right

relationship with the data, it's still a

positive thing, ultimately.

Yeah, I'd agree with that.

Yeah, no, I think you just got to look at

as data at the end of the

day, a bit like SleepScore.

Just, "Okay, this is my SleepScore.

And then don't let that sort of influence

you because it's going to have that sort

of placebo-no-cebo effect if you sort of

then sort of feed into it."

Just, yeah, I suppose that's actually a

good time to maybe talk about the

trigger that maybe, and for those

listening, I've put that into air quotes,

that most people don't think about and

something you've already talked more

alluded to a few times.

And that's this thing about autonomic

nervous system dysregulation.

Yeah, call it what you will, maybe

adverse childhood events, a sort of a

heightened limbic system response, a

hypothalamic response.

But yeah, I think a lot of people don't

necessarily think that stress is

potentially a major trigger or a trigger

in itself for CFS or

ME or any fatigue state.

This is something sort of I get quite

passionate about because I just love the

neurobiology behind it, how high levels

of stress can sort of influence, yeah,

the release of your transcription factors

in the cytokines, which then feed down

into this vicious circle of driving

central nervous system fatigue,

upregulating stress hormones and around

and around you going.

Could you sort of carry that statement

forward and discuss why, yeah, it's

potentially such an issue?

I can try, yeah.

So I guess, you know, I kind of do see it

as foundational ultimately.

And I think the easiest way to think

about it is if that autonomic nervous

system is dysregulated, you know, that is

kind of the conductor.

It's dictating to some degree where your

resources are being distributed.

And if you're not

distributing your resources to,

you know, as we've already sort of

discussed to certain bodily systems or

pathways, whether that's the guts,

whether it's digestion, whether it's

detoxification, whether it's distributing

blood flow to the gut lining to maintain

an intact gut lining, then you're going

to ultimately end up with these

downstream consequences that sometimes

people confuse with the

trigger, like leaky guts.

You know, if you're not getting enough

blood flow to the cells that line the

guts, then you're not able to repair the

guts and you will

have chronic leaky guts.

So a lot of the things that I think we

sort of diagnose, so to speak, are often

downstream of the initial imbalance, if

we just call it that,

I guess, ultimately.

So I do think sort of autonomic nervous

system, dysregulation, limbic sort of

dysfunction are common, you know, and

again, thinking about this just from our

modern way of living and the environment

that so many of us are in, you can take

that in so many different ways, noise

pollution, air pollution,

sort of EMFs and going

down that sort of rabbit hole.

All of this is having some kind of impact

on our physiology at an unconscious or

sometimes conscious level.

So, you know, living by a really busy,

noisy road, that is a

stressor on your physiology.

You know, there's research around that.

So my master's dissertation was on

cortisol resistance and

chronic fatigue syndrome.

So again, like you already alluded to a

little bit, Robert, this idea of if you

are constantly producing excessive levels

of cortisol for whatever reason, some

kind of stressor, let's just say, the

receptors on your cells to cortisol can

desensitize, can become resistant, like

we think of insulin

resistance and type 2 diabetes.

And although everyone will know of

cortisol as the stress hormone, as many

of us also know, it is a potent

anti-inflammatory

immune modulating hormone.

And therefore, if you end up with

cortisol resistance, you are not getting

that anti-inflammatory immune modulating

property that we need

and want from cortisol.

And this can sometimes manifest in low

cortisol in salivary testing, where

people go, "Oh, I've got adrenal fatigue.

I need to kind of support my adrenals."

Actually, that is again, often thought to

be an adaptive response.

Your bodily has deliberately lowered your

free cortisol to free up immune resources

to deal with something that you're

struggling to deal with,

an infection, for example.

So I really do, in my heart, believe that

the body very rarely,

if ever, makes a mistake

and that everything we're seeing in test

results, or nearly everything, is a

deliberate act by the body, by the cell,

because it has far more wisdom and

intelligence than we do.

And then we're trying to figure out

what's going on ultimately.

So the question is, why

would the body do that?

Why would the body deliberately do what

we're seeing with free cortisol that we

just went through, for example?

And it's the same with this idea that CFS

is a sort of hibernation reduced

metabolic state as a way to

preserve life, ultimately.

It just comes at a huge

cost in many other ways.

So the body has deliberately done that.

And what we need to try and do is

obviously understand the accumulative

wear and tear and the

biggest fish in the pond that's Dr.

Neil Nathan sometimes calls it.

What are those that if we can act upon

and if we can sort of deal with, so to

speak, then the body has enough resources

to deal with the other stuff that might

be accumulating the

wear and the tear as well.

So there's going to be a tipping point

whereby healing spontaneously happens

once we've dealt with the excess that we

referred to earlier, when we've hit that

threshold, where the body no longer has

the resources to cope with the strain

that is being placed on the system.

And this is where we also have to be

thinking about our emotional well-being.

You know, there's a condition called

alexithymia, which is kind of this

reduced ability to identify, label,

experience our emotions.

And one of the theories is that if you

have a reduced ability to kind of

recognize and identify and label how you

are emotionally feeling, there's kind of

like, there's another stressor

ultimately, because you're not going to

be able to act accordingly.

You're not going to be able to respond to

what is actually happening

in your internal landscape.

And that's been associated with some of

these conditions,

certainly IBS and fibromyalgia.

I'm pretty sure chronic

fatigue syndrome as well.

It would totally make

sense that it would be.

So, you know, I also think that actually

some of the most powerful therapies can

sometimes be journaling, for example, but

not just necessarily journaling without

any prompts, but, you know, again,

looking at the research and looking at

the sort of questions or statements that

are being used to prompt people to go

deep with their journaling practice.

You know, being in the breathwork space a

little bit, there are, you know, these

stories of people going into a conscious

connected breathwork ceremony where

they're lying down, eyes closed, music

playing, breathing through the mouth for

60 minutes, often having some sort of

quite profound experience.

That could be an emotional release or

that could be something psychological.

But I know of people who have had chronic

fatigue syndrome, who have had

significant improvement in symptoms after

going through something like a conscious

connected breath experience.

So, you know, there is that mind body

element to this as well, which I think is

a really valid route to explore.

Yeah, it's definitely,

I keep on going forward

and backward on that one.

I must admit having sort of worked

through programs like the Gupta program

myself, and maybe not necessarily having

seen the results I was after.

I do wonder if I do think it works.

I just, I'm not, I don't necessarily

believe that it's maybe a

modality that works off the bat.

I still think you have to get that

supportive, the supportive basis in first

before you can sort of maybe start before

you start to deal with the sort of the

mind body aspect of it.

I'm not denouncing it at all.

I just think that you have to have that

baseline support and to allow the body to

then slowly start at

least at a cellular level.

And I suppose this gets more into the

cell dangerous response stuff that we'll

talk about in a bit.

After that sort of CDR1, CDR2 state and

then back into a position where maybe,

yeah, you can then leverage these more

broadly speaking, yeah,

psychosomatic approaches.

Would you agree with that?

Yeah, I think it's all of these things

are quite frankly a bit hit and miss.

And we don't necessarily have a logical

explanation as to why it worked for this

person and didn't for this person.

And it could be all sorts of different

little components at the end of the day.

But I do like what you say, Robert,

because, partly because, you know, we're

at a space, I think, where people are

really pushing their

bias, you know, their thing.

And we're at a point where I'm seeing

more like somatic practitioners, like

dissing functional medicine, because, oh,

I had a client come to me and they spend

thousands on tests and supplements and

they didn't get better and

they did my program and did.

But it's like, that's

true the other way as well.

Like it's not, one isn't better.

And like a multi pronged approach is

always going to give you the most

likelihood of success.

But I think, you know, there's got to be

those foundations in place, as you say.

And again, keeping it really basic, this

won't be relevant to a lot of people.

But if there are some nutrient

deficiencies where the cell actually just

doesn't have the raw ingredients it needs

to create energy, no amount of journaling

or breath work or anything is going to

touch it, because that's just a pure

physiological, biochemistry, biological,

whatever root cause that

needs to be addressed as that.

Now, there are those cases, and I imagine

the more we go down the spectrum of

severity of kind of chronic fatigue

syndrome and the more multi prongs it

comes, I think the more likely is that

there are some ACEs, that there are

environmental toxins at play that are,

that is disposed of intestinal

permeability, because there's been a

greater collapse in physiology and

homeostasis, ultimately.

So yeah, I think again, it comes back to

where is that person

within their journey?

What have they explored, but also just

how severe is their condition?

Yeah, no, I really like the way you put

that because oftentimes you're, you're

going to onto social media, and you'll be

struggling with one of

these sorts of issues.

And again, just to reuse the same analogy

from earlier, everybody in the pen there

on will have the solution.

And it's oftentimes just a

fairly narrow viewpoint on this.

Okay, so I'm just going to go through

this detox program, which may be great.

I'm not saying it isn't, but and there's

there often a lot of claims that it's

that will solve your problem, or you've

just got mast cell activation syndrome,

and all you've got to do is take

quesitin, crumblin, low histamine diet,

and Bob's your your be heal.

And I think, I think these clinicians or

sometimes just people who've worked

through themselves, and who are then

selling a solution, they really mean

well, they really want help.

But I think, and I'm not necessarily

pointing to them and saying that they're

doing anything wrong.

But I think people have just got to be

aware that that that that as you've

highlighted, excuse me, a multi pronged

approach is is definitely,

well, it just makes sense, you're sort of

the more approaches you have, the more

likely you are to hit the target.

And I think if you sort of go in with the

mentality that this one thing is going

to, to be your answer, that you're going

to be disappointed and ultimately, well,

not ultimately, but potentially end up

sort of back on the back foot in a sort

of state of, well, where is me, life's

I'm just been destined to be miserable

forever sort of thing.

Cool.

I'd love to carry on

this discussion all day.

There is a receptor sensitivity part sort

of really sort of litify

under me and what I wanted.

And we think, yeah, I think if we were to

sort of then discuss things like cytokine

insensitivity, that would be something

else to, well, another

rabbit hole to go down.

I think if one could figure out how to

stop various receptors from becoming

insensitive to any

input, be it a hormone drug,

whatever, you'd probably

be a billionaire overnight.

But anyway,

I reckon it's probably a good time to

move on and maybe talk about some of

these downstream issues that arise from

these triggers that

we've really been discussing.

But first, I'd just like to the audience

to understand that there is almost orders

of operations to how the body enters into

the sort of aloe static

state, the state of dysfunction.

Now, I want to keep this very high level

and I'd love your feedbacks.

And if I miss anything,

please feel free to correct me.

But the way I see this is that there will

be a trigger and I want to find another

word now because that

one's driving me nuts.

But that will ultimately drive some level

of inflammation within the body and

that's going to be mediated most of the

time by the immune system.

A good example of this would be, say you

have mold as your primary trigger,

obviously speaking to the audience here,

and that could then be driving high

levels of incast of the sort of histamine

controlled

immunological response in the body.

And then consequently downstream of that

inflammation, you then end up at least

according to Naviocerri, a rubber doctor,

rubber Naviocerri, this sort of, this, as

we alluded to earlier, this

state where the mitochondria become

dysfunctional, the cell

danger response, as it were.

And then downstream of that, again,

you're going to end up

with hormonal dysregulation,

which is where I think some people tend

to sort of miss the mark a bit and they

end up going straight to HRT because on

paper they have a low testosterone or

estrogen or whatever when all the results

are, all the issues are upstream of that

and that the hormones are just a

consequence of this sort

of dysfunctional physiology.

I know that again was very high level and

that I miss out a lot of nuance there.

But again, just from the sort of order

operation standpoint, do you think that

sort of sums up how the body sort of

enters into this state of dysfunction or

anything or did I get it wrong entirely?

No, I think that sums up nicely

ultimately and easy to understand.

Like, I think, as you said, it's really

important to stress like the biggest

trigger or the final trigger.

So if you just think of an individual

cell, you know, you've got all of these

different stimuli ultimately, and the

cell can maintain its

health for only so long.

So going back to this threshold, then you

get exposed to mold or whatever it may

be, and yeah, then

there's just this collapse.

So I think you summarize that sort of

dominant sequence nicely.

Cool.

I'm glad I got something right today.

I might actually put in for pay rise.

All right.

So I reckon the next logical step would

be to maybe discuss some of these

downstream issues of the

trigger in a little more detail.

And now I know we could go, there are

obviously there are

dozens, hundreds of them.

But if we were to just touch on the main

ones, I think that would be helpful.

And talk about things like mast cell

activation syndrome, and then maybe dive

in a little deeper into the CDR side of

things, the mitochondrial dysfunction,

would just be helpful to people.

As I think that these are generally

issues that affect more people than not

when it comes to these states.

And then again, maybe to talk about the

vagus nerve in a little more detail, just

to carry on that conversation we had

earlier from a, from an autonomic

dysregulation standpoint.

Are there any more there that you would

like to maybe hide for

people listening in or?

I think the histamine

piece is, is really big.

I think it's been really big for a long

time, but we're only now just starting to

really appreciate how big it is.

And COVID has definitely sort

of been a player within that.

But you know, histamine and its

contribution from an IBS, CFS, and

obviously going through sort of MCAS type

stuff, like it's,

it's really significant.

And I think it is definitely

underdiagnosed, misdiagnosed, missed by a

lot of practitioners, including myself

over the years, obviously.

Because partly it can manifest in so many

different ways for different people.

So in mast cells,

we have an abundance of mast cells that

infiltrate the gut lining.

So in people with IBS, they often have an

accumulation of mast cells along the

lining of the gut, which is then

obviously contributing to some of the

symptoms they might be experiencing.

And mast cells can be triggered to

release their content, which includes

histamine, but hundreds of other

mediators, obviously, as well.

Many are pro-inflammatory.

Mycotoxins, heavy metals have been shown

to sort of trigger mast cells.

Now that's not mast cell.

I think I'm right in saying from the

paper, it wasn't mast cell degranulation,

which we often hear about.

It was just literally the mast cell being

triggered to release

contents from the cell.

And this can contribute to, you know,

your classic symptoms, sneezing,

reactivity, hay fever type stuff.

But it could be purely digestive related.

It could be cognitive.

A brain fog will be a

really common scenario there.

It can be related to the

monthly cycle in females.

It can be related to

blood pressure regulation.

It can be migraines and headaches.

Blood pressure?

There is a mechanism around certainly the

cardiovascular system

being influenced as well.

Would that have to do with

nitric oxide potentially?

Yes, that would make sense.

Yeah, at least if nothing else, then I

imagine nitric oxide at play.

I'm not sure what the mechanisms are

there off the top of my head.

But yeah, I mean, almost most bodily

systems can be

influenced at the end of the day.

Now with IBS, you know, there are studies

where they've given an over-the-counter

antihistamine and a subset of people get

total improvement in their

gastrointestinal symptoms.

So that kind of shows you the role that

it can play within IBS.

And with histamine, obviously you've got

exogenous consumption

from high histamine foods.

You've got potential production from gut

bacteria that can produce histamine.

And then you've got mast cell and

basophils that can produce histamine and

they both kind of store

it within the cytoplasm.

So you've got endogenous and exogenous

exposures ultimately.

And then various environmental toxins,

like we've mentioned, can trigger the

mast cell to release that

histamine that it contains.

And we've all got,

remotely familiar with histamines,

probably heard about the

whole histamine buckets.

You know, again, we've got a

threshold that we can handle.

And then when that threshold has

exceeded, we're going to be

symptomatic fundamentally.

And there are two primary ways that we

deal with histamine.

Sort of the dietary

source, we have the DAO enzyme.

So you can supplement DAO to help you

tolerate dietary histamine ultimately.

And for some people, it works wonders and

it diversifies the diet

again and they're happy as Larry.

For others, it doesn't work.

And that's just because their issue

wasn't a DAO issue, most likely.

So again, it's just one of the things

that can be at play there.

Diamine oxidase being the enzyme that

brings down histamine.

Yes, correct.

Yeah.

And that's primarily

dietary or exogenous histamine.

Now you could have a bacterial overgrowth

that is driving histamine if those

bacteria are histamine producers.

And then we have to go down more of a,

let's just call it a microbiome

modulating sort of protocol to deal with

the overgrowth or at least understand the

cause of the overgrowth.

And then you've got the environmental

triggers of actual mast cells triggering

histamine release and

releasing it from that perspective.

And then there's also the HNMT.

I was just going to ask.

And I never, I can't

remember what it stands for.

HNMT.

But that's dealing with kind of more

endogenous histamine.

Now both of those enzymes, DAO and HNMT,

as they all require,

they have co-factors.

So there is copper and

B6 among others for DAO.

And I think there's zinc

and B6 for HNMT among others.

So nutrient deficiencies will contribute

to kind of your histamine bucket, your

histamine threshold and how much you're

dealing with there as well.

Now DAO can be deteriorated with any

damage to the gut lining because that's

its primary place of origin, so to speak.

So when you do have intestinal

permeability, AKA leaky guts or gut

information, it's very likely that DAO

has been compromised as well.

And then MCAS is kind of further down the

spectrum again of severity ultimately.

So you have histamine intolerance, which

is often more of a DAO dietary thing,

moving down to MCAS, where now you've got

a multi-system, multi-factorial condition

that can be

incredibly complex ultimately.

But we still want to be thinking about

what is the trigger.

And that could be the things that we have

been talking about, infections, toxins,

trauma, and these sorts of things.

Yeah, no, that was beautifully put.

Thank you.

And it just it really sort of highlights

the fact that these mast cell issues,

these histamine issues are a symptom of a

bigger issue than not the issue in

themselves, which again, I think is what

where a lot of people sort of scrolling

through social media sort of tend to sort

of maybe make a mistake, they sort of see

their issue as a histamine issue.

The histamine is a symptom of something

else that's going on.

And just by maybe just taking your

chromoly and quercetin or whatever, you

aren't actually, maybe you're controlling

some of the symptoms, but you're not

actually dealing with the picture.

It's definitely a very sort of, I don't

want to say reductionist because that has

a lot of negative connotations.

But I think, yeah, it's just sort of

cherry picking one specific

pathway or one specific issue.

And then sort of saying, okay, right,

that's my issue and then

sort of ignoring the rest.

The enzyme that you were thinking about,

by the way, was histamine

N-methyltransferase, I believe.

Thank you.

I could be wrong.

I've been going through my genetics a

little bit, trying to sort of remember

some of what I learnt in

uni, which was a long time ago.

But anyway, but yeah, I think histamine,

it definitely is an issue for a lot of

people, especially as you alluded to, it

can be triggered by so many things.

And people who are trying to maybe do the

right thing by detoxing are oftentimes

going to sort of run into this issue of

excess histamine release.

People getting into a sauna for too long,

because that's great maybe for helping to

liberate some heavy metals, that's great.

But heat is going to drive up histamine

release or a woman who sort of maybe jump

onto HRT because they think that this is

their solution and then all of a sudden

they're taking more estrogen and that's

going to sort of drive

up histamine release.

So yeah, it really is an

issue for so many people.

And the fact that yeah, it's, and I think

that's again where COVID is a bit of a

silver lining, because it's just brought

this to the forefront, especially when

you start looking through the lens,

through the lens of long COVID.

Now I'm sure we could

discuss that all day.

And

yeah, I had a lovely podcast with Dr.

Tina Moore, I'm sure

you're familiar with.

Yes.

For anyone who is listening who wants to

dive down the histamine rabbit hole, I

highly encourage you to listen to that

podcast that we did or

any podcast that she's done.

She's done a number of

podcasts recently, including Dr.

John something.

Yeah, that escaped me out.

We'll link it in the show notes, but

she's an excellent source thereof.

Let's discuss the mitochondrial piece.

CDO, again, we've done a deep dive into

this, but from a high level, I think it's

important to know why mitochondria sort

of break and then maybe we'll discuss

what we can do about it a little later on

in the episode when we start to put

together this

framework for folks to follow.

But from your vantage point anyway, how

do you see

mitochondrial dysfunction occurring?

And then where do you see this idea of

the cell danger response fitting in?

So on mitochondria, I read recently, the

canaries in the coal mine

from a cellular perspective.

So as many of us as your listeners would

have probably heard, they're an ancient

bacteria that sort of co-evolved with an

archaea, I think it was, wasn't it?

Millions and millions of years ago.

So this is why there's the antibiotic

piece with mitochondria.

But mitochondria are not just the

powerhouses of the cell

that often we hear them being.

They are that, but they are so much more.

I mean, they regulate calcium sort of

regulation and they have many other roles

in including relation to the production

of steroid hormones,

cholesterol, among other things as well.

But mitochondrial dysfunction, you know,

the textbook thing is the manifestation

is most likely going to be among other

things, fatigue because of their role,

obviously, in energy production.

But mitochondria can be damaged.

We can develop mitochondrial dysfunction

because of nutrient deficiencies, because

of dysbiosis and leaky gut, you know,

these lipopolysaccharides or endotoxins

can have an impact on mitochondrial

function, apparently.

Butrate, you know, a metabolite, healthy,

good, important metabolite from some of

our gut bacteria

supports mitochondrial function.

We've got xenobiotics and various

environmental chemicals that can inhibit

mitochondrial function.

What else have we got that impacts

mitochondrial function?

I mean, all of the typical things,

inflammation, mycotoxins, they're all

going to be impacting it ultimately.

So again, mitochondrial dysfunction,

there's this kind of camp that think

mitochondrial dysfunction is, you know,

the cure, you know, the cause of

everything and therefore the cure.

Because if you can get healthy

mitochondria, you can get a healthy cell.

And if you have a healthy

cell, you have a healthy organ.

If you have a healthy

organ, you have a healthy system.

If you have a healthy system,

you have a healthy organism.

But as you kind of said, Robert, you

know, mitochondrial dysfunction is

downstream of these sorts of things.

And therefore, we still have to

constantly ask the why until we feel

we've actually got to the answer,

ultimately, like what is the most

upstream thing we can get to?

And that is the thing that

we probably need to focus on.

So is it nutrients?

It could be the guts from a

mitochondrial perspective.

Is it some kind of

environmental chemical or toxin?

Is it trauma?

There's a study that was looking at

adverse childhood events.

And, you know, it's been a long time

since I read it, but the takeaway was

ultimately that it can contribute to

reduced ATP

production within mitochondria.

So one of the sort of almost mechanisms

between early childhood trauma and

diseases later in life could be related

to mitochondria dysfunction.

And essentially, that person just being

less resilient as a result on

a physical level, so to speak.

And then obviously, mitochondria

dysfunction, you would have thought, will

manifest in certain organs first the most

energy dependent organs.

So hearts, liver, kidneys, gut lining.

And we've already mentioned how

mitochondria have a big role to play

within maintaining a healthy gut

microbiome and a healthy gut lining.

So again, are you is the glutamine and

zinc carnosine really going to fix the

leaky gut if there's some mitochondrial

dysfunction, which is

actually upstream of that?

So yeah, I think mitochondria are really

important piece of the puzzle, but it's

just important that we don't do what you

were saying, Robert, which is, you know,

along the lines of take your quercetin

and think that you've kind

of dealt with it ultimately.

So don't take your CoQ10 or whatever it

may be and think that

you've dealt with it.

And within the cell danger response, you

know, one of the many changes that

happens is the cell membrane

obviously becomes more rigid.

So the cell membrane, I always remember

one of my lecturers and the masters kind

of really emphasizing the cell membrane.

It is the brain of the cell.

The cell membrane is so important for

cellular function,

and this becomes rigid.

So less good stuff gets in, less bad

stuff gets out, and it's going into that

sort of hibernation or

locked down state to survive.

And that's where I guess, you know,

things like your phospholipid replacement

therapy type protocols have some value

and some people respond well to.

So yeah, I'll pause there.

No, again, that was that was perfect.

Thank you very much.

And again, it just sort of points to the

fact that just dealing with the basics,

which I know we'll touch on a bit getting

in your essential nutrients, it is so

important and almost taking this sort of

orthomolecular approach, maybe as a first

stop is probably for the most part the

best place to start for a lot of people.

However, we'll get to that in a bit.

I'd love it if we could also just quickly

sort of backtrack slightly and then talk

a little more about the nervous system

again, but this time from the standpoint

of the vagus nerve, because I think, I

mean, this is quite a trigger, but it's

also oftentimes a downstream result of a

lot of this dysfunction.

And there's a lot of chicken and egg

going on with the vagus nerve, and the

more the vagus nerve gets more

dysregulation that happens

with regards to the vagus nerve,

the more oftentimes an individual is

going to end up in a sort of

sympathetically dominant state, which

actually is going to sort of then trigger

that some of at least,

yeah, some of the CDR type stuff, some of

this mitochondrial dysfunction as well,

just by way of increasing the release of

catecholamines, all

these stress hormones.

Now, there's a lot to be said about the

vagus nerve, especially around polyvagal

theory, which I believe I'm right in

saying it, you're fairly well-read and

definitely more so than I am.

Can we have a quick discussion about that

and where that fits into the picture?

Yeah, it's been a while since I've talked

about this, so feel free

to jump in and help me here.

But, you know, the vagus nerve obviously,

in Latin, I think it's wandering, so most

people can picture like the roots of a

tree, you've got branches of this nerve

innovating all the

different organs in the body.

And the polyvagal theory put really

simply is this idea that there is a

hierarchy to the vagus nerve.

And we have, let's think about this, we

have the ventral vagal and the dorsal

vagal, which are parts of this kind of

hierarchy, ultimately.

And I think the ventral vagal, correct me

if I'm wrong here, Robert, but the

ventral vagal is kind of the social

safety component of this, and the dorsal

vagal is kind of the shutdown ultimately.

And we can definitely see people who have

gone down into this kind of shutdown

vagus nerve response.

You know, you could almost think about it

as the freeze or this

hibernation type state, ultimately.

And the key theme with the pole polyvagal

theory from my perspective, again,

keeping this quite high level is the

theme around safety.

If we don't feel safe, we can see a shift

in vagus nerve, and that's obviously

going to manifest from a behavioral

perspective, but also

from a cellular perspective.