1 00:00:00,375 --> 00:00:04,045 We're not going to just simply go with every pattern of the world, 2 00:00:04,045 --> 00:00:06,339 every new thing that comes down the track, 3 00:00:06,339 --> 00:00:11,970 every new thing that is basically comes out of a fashion industry 4 00:00:12,220 --> 00:00:15,015 that is wanting to sell things to you 5 00:00:15,015 --> 00:00:18,184 and does so by appealing to your fleshly senses. 6 00:00:18,768 --> 00:00:21,312 And when I see when I see Mennonites 7 00:00:22,063 --> 00:00:25,066 picking up aspects of that, 8 00:00:25,483 --> 00:00:27,652 that troubles me 9 00:00:27,652 --> 00:00:29,779 because they're not asking themselves, 10 00:00:29,779 --> 00:00:32,323 where does this come from? 11 00:00:32,323 --> 00:00:33,992 And what is the message? 12 00:00:33,992 --> 00:00:34,993 It's sending clothes send a message. 13 00:00:34,993 --> 00:00:36,911 It's sending clothes send a message. 14 00:00:36,911 --> 00:00:40,623 Doesn't matter how you dress, it sends a message. 15 00:00:41,416 --> 00:00:43,501 You have to decide what is the message you want to send. 16 00:00:49,716 --> 00:00:50,216 Welcome 17 00:00:50,216 --> 00:00:53,219 to this episode of Anabaptist Perspectives. 18 00:00:53,344 --> 00:00:57,265 We are here to discuss being plain with Edsel Burdge. 19 00:00:58,016 --> 00:00:59,267 Welcome, Edsel. 20 00:00:59,267 --> 00:01:02,270 Can you introduce yourself to our audience? 21 00:01:03,396 --> 00:01:07,984 My name is at Edsel Burdge Junior and I live in Shippensburg, Pennsylvania. 22 00:01:08,026 --> 00:01:13,364 I am, married with six children, and I have seven grandchildren. 23 00:01:13,406 --> 00:01:17,744 I'm a member of Shippensburg Christian Fellowship, which is a conservative, 24 00:01:18,745 --> 00:01:21,498 unaffiliated, conservative Mennonite congregation. 25 00:01:21,498 --> 00:01:25,043 and I did not grow up in a Mennonite home. 26 00:01:25,085 --> 00:01:28,088 I started attending Mennonite Church when I was 15 27 00:01:28,171 --> 00:01:31,174 and was baptized when I was 17. 28 00:01:31,883 --> 00:01:33,927 And then, I went to Eastern 29 00:01:33,927 --> 00:01:36,971 Mennonite College and graduated with a bachelor's degree in history. 30 00:01:36,971 --> 00:01:40,558 Then I got a master's degree in history from Villanova University, 31 00:01:41,101 --> 00:01:42,977 and I taught school for a number of years. 32 00:01:42,977 --> 00:01:45,939 I worked on a number of research and writing projects. 33 00:01:45,939 --> 00:01:50,610 And, starting in 2012, I started working as a research 34 00:01:50,610 --> 00:01:54,197 associate at the Young Center for Anabaptist and Pietist Studies 35 00:01:54,531 --> 00:01:57,700 at Elizabethtown College, which is where I am currently. 36 00:01:58,243 --> 00:02:01,621 And one of my major tasks is, compiling, 37 00:02:01,621 --> 00:02:05,458 statistical data on various plain groups, particularly the Amish. 38 00:02:06,042 --> 00:02:10,588 When people ask me what I do, I jokingly tell them that I, count Amish. 39 00:02:10,588 --> 00:02:13,174 And, so it is a joke. It is true. 40 00:02:13,174 --> 00:02:17,679 That is what I one of the things I do, in 2004, 41 00:02:17,720 --> 00:02:21,933 my, my book coauthored with Samuel Horst, 42 00:02:22,433 --> 00:02:26,354 building on the Gospel Foundation, the Mennonites of Franklin County, 43 00:02:26,354 --> 00:02:30,942 Pennsylvania, and Washington County, Maryland, 1730 to 1970, 44 00:02:30,942 --> 00:02:34,988 came out as part of the studies on Anabaptism and Mennonite history series 45 00:02:36,072 --> 00:02:37,115 and, 46 00:02:37,115 --> 00:02:42,370 and, 2004, the third volume of Documents of Brotherly Love, 47 00:02:42,787 --> 00:02:45,665 Dutch Mennonite Aid to Swiss Anabaptist, 48 00:02:45,665 --> 00:02:50,128 came out and I was one of the coeditors of that, 49 00:02:50,128 --> 00:02:53,381 final volume and that that document series. 50 00:02:54,132 --> 00:02:54,841 Fabulous. 51 00:02:54,841 --> 00:02:57,844 Thank you for the introduction. 52 00:02:58,386 --> 00:03:01,389 We are here to talk about being plain. 53 00:03:02,223 --> 00:03:05,643 Some communities of Christians call themselves plain people. 54 00:03:06,436 --> 00:03:09,689 Many in our audience see themselves as plain. 55 00:03:09,731 --> 00:03:11,649 But we have a diverse audience. 56 00:03:11,649 --> 00:03:15,111 So many listening probably do not regard themselves as plain, 57 00:03:15,445 --> 00:03:18,198 and may not be familiar with the way that we will be 58 00:03:18,198 --> 00:03:21,159 using the term in this episode. 59 00:03:21,618 --> 00:03:26,539 So let's begin by situating and contextualizing the term 60 00:03:26,915 --> 00:03:29,918 and acknowledging its various definitions. 61 00:03:30,460 --> 00:03:34,714 Unadorned may be the most straightforward and basic definition. 62 00:03:35,381 --> 00:03:38,593 So those who are interested in 17th century Puritan literature 63 00:03:38,593 --> 00:03:41,804 may think of plain style as 64 00:03:41,804 --> 00:03:45,016 being clear, brief, sincere, 65 00:03:46,392 --> 00:03:47,477 distinctive dress 66 00:03:47,477 --> 00:03:52,982 code or symbolic religious apparel may also come to many people's minds 67 00:03:52,982 --> 00:03:55,985 as characteristic of plainness. 68 00:03:57,153 --> 00:04:00,406 So let's begin with the historic development 69 00:04:00,823 --> 00:04:04,911 of how these various definitions interrelated over the years. 70 00:04:06,829 --> 00:04:07,413 Okay. 71 00:04:07,413 --> 00:04:12,835 Well, you know, Mennonites and Amish in the, let's say, here in North America, 72 00:04:12,835 --> 00:04:16,047 an 18th, 19th century, their primary, 73 00:04:16,047 --> 00:04:19,050 language was German, not English. 74 00:04:19,133 --> 00:04:22,136 And the term, plain is kind of an English word. 75 00:04:23,054 --> 00:04:26,766 I thought I would try to find out what they use instead 76 00:04:26,766 --> 00:04:29,769 when they're talking German, and I haven't been able to figure that out yet. 77 00:04:29,978 --> 00:04:33,690 I probably have to have a good a long conversation with my friend Amos Hoover, 78 00:04:33,690 --> 00:04:38,528 who's really a specialist on that kind of, those kind of linguistic questions. 79 00:04:39,070 --> 00:04:43,116 But the term plain, I think actually we can, 80 00:04:43,116 --> 00:04:47,412 you talked about Puritan plain style that had to do more with a, a 81 00:04:47,495 --> 00:04:51,249 type of preaching, not the elaborate, 82 00:04:51,332 --> 00:04:55,336 kind of high church Anglican preaching 83 00:04:55,586 --> 00:04:59,173 and so on, but more of a straightforward, 84 00:04:59,173 --> 00:05:02,844 systematic, kind of presentation. 85 00:05:03,761 --> 00:05:07,724 But as far as I can see, the, the term plain in the sense 86 00:05:07,724 --> 00:05:11,436 that we talk about it as kind of lifestyle issues, 87 00:05:11,769 --> 00:05:15,857 that that term was originally used by the Society of Friends, by the Quakers. 88 00:05:15,857 --> 00:05:19,777 And I, I just want to read to you, a section 89 00:05:19,777 --> 00:05:25,033 from the 1804, Discipline of Philadelphia Yearly Meeting. 90 00:05:25,158 --> 00:05:27,785 The, the section on plainness. 91 00:05:28,911 --> 00:05:30,455 And this is a very Quakery 92 00:05:30,455 --> 00:05:35,293 language, but I think actually kind of gets to the, to the, gist of what 93 00:05:35,376 --> 00:05:37,170 what the kind of things we're talking about 94 00:05:37,170 --> 00:05:40,923 when we use the word plain says plainness, advise 95 00:05:41,007 --> 00:05:46,054 that all friends, both old and young, keep out of the world's corrupt language, 96 00:05:46,387 --> 00:05:49,974 manners, vain and needless things and fashions 97 00:05:50,391 --> 00:05:53,978 in apparel, buildings and furniture of houses, 98 00:05:53,978 --> 00:05:58,191 some of which are immodest, indecent, and unbecoming, 99 00:05:59,025 --> 00:06:03,529 and that they avoid immoderation and the use of lawful things, which, 100 00:06:03,613 --> 00:06:08,076 through, though innocent in themselves, may thereby become hurtful. 101 00:06:08,493 --> 00:06:13,873 Also, such kinds of stuffs, colors, and dress, as are calculated 102 00:06:14,374 --> 00:06:18,920 more to please a vain and wanton mind than for real usefulness, 103 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:23,674 and let tradesmen and others, members of our religious society be admonished, 104 00:06:23,883 --> 00:06:27,345 that they be not a accessory to those evils. 105 00:06:27,678 --> 00:06:30,681 For we ought to take up our daily cross, 106 00:06:30,681 --> 00:06:33,434 minding the grace of God, which brings salvation, 107 00:06:33,434 --> 00:06:36,938 and teach us to deny all ungodliness, worldly lusts, 108 00:06:37,230 --> 00:06:40,900 and to live soberly, righteously and godly in the present world, 109 00:06:41,067 --> 00:06:45,279 that we may adorn the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ and all things. 110 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:49,242 So may we feel his blessing and being instrumental in his hand 111 00:06:49,242 --> 00:06:50,535 for the good of others. 112 00:06:51,744 --> 00:06:54,747 Now, I think that's a pretty good definition of plain 113 00:06:55,039 --> 00:06:59,419 all right, even if it's not coming from a, a Mennonite or Amish source. 114 00:06:59,419 --> 00:07:01,129 It's coming from an Anabaptist source. 115 00:07:01,129 --> 00:07:04,882 And I think that once, I, I, 116 00:07:05,216 --> 00:07:08,636 I think I, this would need further documentation, but 117 00:07:09,220 --> 00:07:11,848 I think that as the, 118 00:07:11,848 --> 00:07:14,851 as Mennonites moved into 119 00:07:15,351 --> 00:07:18,354 using English more even as they became bilingual, 120 00:07:18,479 --> 00:07:21,399 that, the this this Quaker term 121 00:07:21,399 --> 00:07:24,485 plain and everything it meant 122 00:07:24,485 --> 00:07:27,780 because in, in the 18th and 123 00:07:27,989 --> 00:07:31,617 and 19th century, Quakers were also a plain people. 124 00:07:31,617 --> 00:07:33,870 There was a recognition of that. 125 00:07:33,870 --> 00:07:35,997 I mean, they had a distinctive garb. 126 00:07:35,997 --> 00:07:40,334 They had sort of a similar attitude toward possessions and so on that Mennonites 127 00:07:40,334 --> 00:07:45,173 and Amish and German Baptist people had, even some of their garb was very similar, 128 00:07:45,173 --> 00:07:50,303 not exactly alike, but very similar, in how they looked and so on. 129 00:07:50,303 --> 00:07:50,511 And it 130 00:07:52,305 --> 00:07:53,014 was interesting. 131 00:07:53,014 --> 00:07:56,642 In the 1880s, there was an orthodox Quaker, 132 00:07:57,018 --> 00:08:00,730 minister from Philadelphia, the name of Joseph Elkinton who, 133 00:08:00,897 --> 00:08:05,568 spent about a year at various points, not the whole year, but various points 134 00:08:05,818 --> 00:08:09,989 visiting the, church, Mennonite churches in Franconia and Lancaster conference 135 00:08:09,989 --> 00:08:13,367 and both conferences opened up their churches 136 00:08:13,367 --> 00:08:16,329 for him and appointed meetings for him. 137 00:08:16,454 --> 00:08:20,249 And they said that they would probably not have done this for anybody 138 00:08:20,541 --> 00:08:23,419 other than a Quaker. 139 00:08:23,419 --> 00:08:25,588 And of course, this was a plain dressing, 140 00:08:25,588 --> 00:08:28,633 plain and a plain dressing, 141 00:08:29,008 --> 00:08:31,719 Quaker minister. 142 00:08:31,719 --> 00:08:35,139 And that was part of that thing that, that made, made 143 00:08:35,139 --> 00:08:38,893 that made him acceptable to these, these folks here. 144 00:08:39,143 --> 00:08:42,313 So I think that the term plain as it's 145 00:08:42,313 --> 00:08:45,316 used, perhaps originated with friends. 146 00:08:45,483 --> 00:08:48,819 And as Amish Mennonite people began to use English 147 00:08:48,819 --> 00:08:52,281 more often, they kind of took that term over. 148 00:08:52,865 --> 00:08:53,199 In fact, 149 00:08:53,199 --> 00:08:56,827 I had a conversation with an Old Order Mennonite friend of mine about this. 150 00:08:56,869 --> 00:08:57,787 And you know what? 151 00:08:57,787 --> 00:08:58,913 What terms do you use? 152 00:08:58,913 --> 00:09:01,707 He said, we use plain even in Dutch, we use plain. 153 00:09:01,707 --> 00:09:05,628 We talk about, so they've they've borrowed this, this, 154 00:09:05,836 --> 00:09:10,633 this term plain, this English term, plain and in Dutch and Pennsylvania Dutch. 155 00:09:10,633 --> 00:09:12,343 They, they use it. 156 00:09:12,343 --> 00:09:17,557 And I wonder now, what did they do, what did they use before they, had that 157 00:09:18,599 --> 00:09:21,435 in some of the older literature, 158 00:09:21,435 --> 00:09:23,437 particularly I'm thinking of, 159 00:09:23,437 --> 00:09:28,484 and the 1840s, I think it is there is, there is a, 160 00:09:29,026 --> 00:09:32,029 there's a manuscript, that records 161 00:09:32,113 --> 00:09:34,699 a, essentially what it's an Ordnung, 162 00:09:34,699 --> 00:09:37,577 set of standards, description 163 00:09:37,577 --> 00:09:40,788 of of how various ordinances are to be performed 164 00:09:40,788 --> 00:09:45,918 and so on that Lancaster conference, agreed to and there it talks 165 00:09:45,918 --> 00:09:48,921 about pride 166 00:09:49,672 --> 00:09:50,756 when it comes to dress. 167 00:09:50,756 --> 00:09:52,883 It talks about no pride, no arrogance. 168 00:09:52,883 --> 00:09:56,470 Actually term is no arrogance in dress and 169 00:09:57,597 --> 00:10:00,391 and so and not dressing like the world. 170 00:10:00,391 --> 00:10:01,183 Okay. 171 00:10:01,183 --> 00:10:04,729 And so even in the 1840s, you know, I think 172 00:10:04,729 --> 00:10:07,773 even before that, there's pretty strong evidence 173 00:10:08,858 --> 00:10:11,861 that there was a distinctive style of dress, 174 00:10:12,028 --> 00:10:15,031 that was considered to be plain. All right. 175 00:10:15,990 --> 00:10:18,993 And again, as you mentioned, it really does mean 176 00:10:19,118 --> 00:10:23,164 unamended, unadorned, stripped of unnecessary things. 177 00:10:23,372 --> 00:10:24,540 Okay. 178 00:10:24,540 --> 00:10:27,835 one of the things that's very interesting, my, my friend, 179 00:10:27,835 --> 00:10:31,839 my late friend Steve Scott, came across a reference 180 00:10:31,839 --> 00:10:36,218 in the Pennsylvania Gazette, an 18th century, newspaper, 181 00:10:36,594 --> 00:10:40,264 and there was an advertisement for a runaway indentured servant. 182 00:10:40,723 --> 00:10:44,185 And it says that he was dressed in a Mennonite coat 183 00:10:45,478 --> 00:10:47,730 in a Mennonite coat. 184 00:10:47,730 --> 00:10:51,400 So even in the 18th century, there was something about the coats 185 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:55,946 that Mennonites wore that was distinctive from the coats that everybody else wore. 186 00:10:56,238 --> 00:10:59,241 Or why would you say he was dressed in a Mennonite coat? 187 00:10:59,450 --> 00:10:59,784 All right. 188 00:10:59,784 --> 00:11:04,163 So, so dress has always been one of the aspects of plainness. 189 00:11:04,163 --> 00:11:09,085 Now, as friends, as, the thing of that, the, disciplined Friends discipline 190 00:11:09,085 --> 00:11:15,299 says it's not just not, it's just not, it's not just, coats are clothes. 191 00:11:15,424 --> 00:11:17,009 It's also your houses. 192 00:11:18,094 --> 00:11:18,719 Okay? 193 00:11:18,719 --> 00:11:22,473 It's also whatever else you might own, that they're not it 194 00:11:22,473 --> 00:11:26,769 not be that it basically be functional and unadorned. 195 00:11:27,061 --> 00:11:29,397 All right. And show moderation. 196 00:11:29,397 --> 00:11:33,567 Even the right use, even the use of right of innocent things. 197 00:11:33,943 --> 00:11:36,987 Okay, so I think that's what we mean about plainness. 198 00:11:36,987 --> 00:11:37,279 Okay. 199 00:11:37,279 --> 00:11:40,282 It's stripped of It's, it's, 200 00:11:40,491 --> 00:11:43,911 ornamentation and the basic rationale 201 00:11:44,245 --> 00:11:47,665 is to avoid pride 202 00:11:48,124 --> 00:11:52,420 and exalting oneself and how one looks, what one’s possessions are. 203 00:11:52,461 --> 00:11:56,465 It really does kind of have to do with the things we see. 204 00:11:57,049 --> 00:11:59,969 Okay. It really does. 205 00:11:59,969 --> 00:12:03,097 So that's very good historical context 206 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:06,183 today. 207 00:12:06,183 --> 00:12:09,186 Many people regard themselves as plain. 208 00:12:09,228 --> 00:12:13,149 So can you give an overview of the plain landscape today? 209 00:12:13,941 --> 00:12:16,152 And how do various groups 210 00:12:16,152 --> 00:12:20,239 or communities definitions of plainness support what they value? 211 00:12:23,117 --> 00:12:24,452 Well, okay. 212 00:12:24,452 --> 00:12:27,163 Well, you know, that is a spectrum. 213 00:12:27,163 --> 00:12:29,749 And I would say that 214 00:12:29,749 --> 00:12:33,878 my my sense is that when we look at the the variety of, 215 00:12:33,878 --> 00:12:38,841 quote unquote, plain Mennonites, which going from old order to, 216 00:12:39,133 --> 00:12:42,970 I don't I'm not sure how far to go down with that one. 217 00:12:43,345 --> 00:12:46,348 I would say that there are, 218 00:12:47,016 --> 00:12:51,395 there are on kind of the more progressive and of conservative Mennonites. 219 00:12:51,812 --> 00:12:54,732 There are groups that I would describe as being conservative, 220 00:12:54,732 --> 00:12:57,943 but not necessarily plain, plain. 221 00:12:57,943 --> 00:13:00,946 I think for a group to be plain, there still does kind of 222 00:13:00,946 --> 00:13:04,158 have to be a somewhat defined, 223 00:13:04,742 --> 00:13:08,120 particularly in dress, a somewhat defined dress, though 224 00:13:08,370 --> 00:13:12,625 admittedly that, for some of the groups, that is always much more, 225 00:13:13,125 --> 00:13:17,046 noticeable and defined for the women than it is for the men. 226 00:13:17,671 --> 00:13:19,715 and there's variation there. 227 00:13:19,715 --> 00:13:23,469 If you look, for example, at the Stauffer Mennonite Church or the Pike 228 00:13:23,469 --> 00:13:27,973 Mennonite there, their garb is very reminiscent. 229 00:13:28,015 --> 00:13:31,894 And this probably changed very little from what Mennonite garb 230 00:13:31,894 --> 00:13:37,358 was in the 1840s when they split off of the Lancaster Conference. 231 00:13:37,358 --> 00:13:37,983 Okay. 232 00:13:37,983 --> 00:13:43,697 So if you go to Lancaster County and you encounter some, some, Stauffer 233 00:13:43,697 --> 00:13:46,700 Mennonites, you are probably seen a pattern 234 00:13:46,867 --> 00:13:51,789 that was pretty pretty much intact in the 1840s. 235 00:13:52,164 --> 00:13:52,957 Okay. 236 00:13:52,957 --> 00:13:55,334 Now, there may have been some change, okay. 237 00:13:55,334 --> 00:13:57,294 But groups like that tend to very conservative. 238 00:13:57,294 --> 00:14:00,130 Groups like that tend to be very resistant to change. 239 00:14:00,130 --> 00:14:05,010 And so and and there's also as you compare their dress to 240 00:14:05,010 --> 00:14:08,973 older styles of dress, to, you know, costumes 241 00:14:08,973 --> 00:14:13,018 and dresses that are, you know, maybe in museums or something like that. 242 00:14:13,227 --> 00:14:14,103 You can see that. 243 00:14:14,103 --> 00:14:15,104 Yeah. This is a pattern. 244 00:14:15,104 --> 00:14:17,857 It's pretty pretty much, like it. 245 00:14:17,857 --> 00:14:22,152 the history or the spectrum of plain Mennonites. 246 00:14:24,029 --> 00:14:25,948 It really does 247 00:14:25,948 --> 00:14:28,951 reflect, first of all, their background, 248 00:14:29,743 --> 00:14:32,079 sometimes their regional background. 249 00:14:32,079 --> 00:14:35,082 And what was the practice in that particular region? 250 00:14:35,249 --> 00:14:41,797 It reflects when in the 20th century, as the larger 251 00:14:41,797 --> 00:14:45,759 Mennonite Church and Conservative Mennonite Conference is assimilated, 252 00:14:46,176 --> 00:14:50,431 when persons who formed new groups came out. 253 00:14:51,432 --> 00:14:55,561 Okay, the the later that they came out, probably the less plain 254 00:14:55,895 --> 00:14:58,689 they are going to be because they've been impacted 255 00:14:58,689 --> 00:15:01,525 by the assimilation that happened prior to that. 256 00:15:01,525 --> 00:15:02,276 Okay. 257 00:15:02,276 --> 00:15:05,279 And so, one of the things I think that explains, it's 258 00:15:05,279 --> 00:15:08,449 not the only thing, but one of the things that explained that explains the ... 259 00:15:08,490 --> 00:15:11,911 of various plain groups has to do 260 00:15:11,911 --> 00:15:16,123 with when they formed and what were the things that they were, 261 00:15:16,957 --> 00:15:21,003 were the issues for them leaving one group and forming a new group? 262 00:15:21,253 --> 00:15:24,423 Okay. And typically speaking, 263 00:15:25,424 --> 00:15:26,717 the more, 264 00:15:26,717 --> 00:15:31,263 more recent that has happened, because they participated 265 00:15:31,263 --> 00:15:34,224 in some assimilation, the less plain they are. 266 00:15:35,809 --> 00:15:38,479 You may have already partially answered this, 267 00:15:38,479 --> 00:15:41,690 but how do current dress code discussions 268 00:15:42,691 --> 00:15:46,278 relate to historic ideas of plainness? 269 00:15:47,279 --> 00:15:50,366 Well, that depends on what the conversation is. 270 00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:54,203 I would say that, 271 00:15:55,037 --> 00:15:57,206 you know, my friend Steve Scott, 272 00:15:57,206 --> 00:16:01,961 who I referred to earlier, divided Mennonite groups, 273 00:16:01,961 --> 00:16:06,048 conservative Mennonite groups into, I think four categories. 274 00:16:06,048 --> 00:16:10,761 You talked about ultra conservatives, talked about intermediate conservatives 275 00:16:10,761 --> 00:16:12,554 who talked about moderate conservatives, 276 00:16:12,554 --> 00:16:15,599 and then he talked about fundamentalist or evangelical conservatives. 277 00:16:16,266 --> 00:16:17,810 And these were a spectrum. 278 00:16:17,810 --> 00:16:20,938 And one of them, not the only but one of the criteria 279 00:16:21,230 --> 00:16:25,693 that he used in defining these various and these these are types, okay. 280 00:16:26,652 --> 00:16:27,403 These are types. 281 00:16:27,403 --> 00:16:30,280 They're okay. They're not formal groups. Okay. 282 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:33,867 These are types in which formal groups fit in to one of the types. 283 00:16:34,284 --> 00:16:35,285 But one of the criteria, 284 00:16:35,285 --> 00:16:40,416 or one of the markers that he used is is how in the sense plane 285 00:16:40,416 --> 00:16:44,294 they were, how, how conservative they were in their dress. 286 00:16:44,670 --> 00:16:45,796 Okay. 287 00:16:45,796 --> 00:16:49,800 So, depending which group you're part of, 288 00:16:50,259 --> 00:16:55,389 then the the discussion will be at a different place. 289 00:16:55,723 --> 00:16:56,682 All right. 290 00:16:56,682 --> 00:17:00,644 You know, I, I know of one very conservative, ultra conservative 291 00:17:00,644 --> 00:17:05,357 group in my area and which the discussion is about wearing a plain black hat. 292 00:17:05,858 --> 00:17:09,528 That is not a discussion that most plain groups have anymore. 293 00:17:10,112 --> 00:17:11,363 All right. 294 00:17:11,363 --> 00:17:13,365 But that is a discussion there. 295 00:17:13,365 --> 00:17:16,869 And, and it's and or an effort 296 00:17:16,869 --> 00:17:21,999 to maintain that particular practice that you don't really see, 297 00:17:22,332 --> 00:17:25,711 in some other groups as being, being an emphasis. 298 00:17:26,462 --> 00:17:29,882 So I would say that many discussions boil 299 00:17:29,882 --> 00:17:34,678 down to the particulars of plain dress, and 300 00:17:35,637 --> 00:17:37,431 how much and 301 00:17:37,431 --> 00:17:42,061 questions about, you know, can a practice be altered? 302 00:17:42,061 --> 00:17:43,854 Can it be abandoned. 303 00:17:43,854 --> 00:17:46,231 And so on. 304 00:17:46,231 --> 00:17:50,027 And the other thing that I would say is that, you know, most conservative 305 00:17:50,527 --> 00:17:55,282 Mennonites have a pattern of plain dress that is pretty much, 306 00:17:55,491 --> 00:18:00,245 20th century pattern, though it is reminiscent of an earlier pattern. 307 00:18:00,245 --> 00:18:02,331 It's it's derived from an earlier pattern. 308 00:18:02,331 --> 00:18:08,295 And so there has even among the most conservative of the car driving groups, 309 00:18:08,545 --> 00:18:13,926 there has been change that has happened, but it is reminiscent of earlier patterns. 310 00:18:13,926 --> 00:18:16,637 Like I said, if you look at the Stauffer Mennonites, 311 00:18:16,637 --> 00:18:20,724 you're going to see something that is very much reminiscent 312 00:18:21,016 --> 00:18:25,979 of pre-Civil War, how pre-Civil War Mennonites as a whole, particularly in 313 00:18:26,271 --> 00:18:30,400 in eastern Pennsylvania and, and in Pennsylvania and so on, dressed. 314 00:18:31,360 --> 00:18:34,196 So if historically, 315 00:18:34,196 --> 00:18:38,033 the the definition of plain was. 316 00:18:38,909 --> 00:18:41,912 Unadorned and practicality, 317 00:18:41,995 --> 00:18:45,290 I think, use the word unadorned, not the word practicality. 318 00:18:45,290 --> 00:18:48,919 That's I think, an inference made from what you were saying. 319 00:18:49,461 --> 00:18:52,422 Is that still 320 00:18:52,422 --> 00:18:56,426 significant priority in the conversations 321 00:18:56,552 --> 00:18:59,721 surrounding plainness in plain Mennonite 322 00:19:00,264 --> 00:19:02,808 churches? 323 00:19:02,808 --> 00:19:04,518 Maybe. 324 00:19:04,518 --> 00:19:08,605 Maybe, depends on what the conversation is. 325 00:19:09,481 --> 00:19:12,651 I do sometimes think. 326 00:19:12,651 --> 00:19:18,073 And conversations I've heard and even conversations I participated in that. 327 00:19:18,490 --> 00:19:23,328 The conversation, gets taken up or revolves around 328 00:19:23,537 --> 00:19:29,001 particular applications of plainness, and so on, and not really 329 00:19:29,001 --> 00:19:32,546 kind of the big issue, I mean, are sort of the overarching, 330 00:19:32,796 --> 00:19:37,509 overarching, principle of what plainness is about. 331 00:19:38,051 --> 00:19:40,512 for example, you know, there are groups that, 332 00:19:40,512 --> 00:19:44,099 congregations I've been in where, you know, 333 00:19:44,099 --> 00:19:47,352 they're as far as they're dress, they seem to me to be okay. 334 00:19:47,352 --> 00:19:48,979 You got that one nailed down pretty well. 335 00:19:48,979 --> 00:19:52,024 But then when you go into their houses and so on, 336 00:19:52,816 --> 00:19:56,278 you see something there that in my mind is not plain. 337 00:19:56,445 --> 00:19:57,988 Okay. It's not plain. 338 00:19:57,988 --> 00:20:01,533 And, you know, that earlier Quaker 339 00:20:01,575 --> 00:20:05,787 way of thinking about things and I think also in earlier, Mennonite 340 00:20:05,954 --> 00:20:09,583 and Amish way of thinking about is that plainness is more than dress. 341 00:20:09,833 --> 00:20:12,836 Plainness impacts every aspect of your life. 342 00:20:13,170 --> 00:20:16,840 Okay. So your house is your dress and your houses, it should be kind of the same. 343 00:20:17,841 --> 00:20:18,383 All right. 344 00:20:18,383 --> 00:20:20,636 Your possessions should reflect that. 345 00:20:20,636 --> 00:20:22,179 Okay. 346 00:20:22,179 --> 00:20:26,433 And so we are really talking here about appearances across the board. 347 00:20:26,975 --> 00:20:30,520 What you have and, and what you, what you show. 348 00:20:30,938 --> 00:20:31,897 All right. 349 00:20:31,897 --> 00:20:36,068 and I would say that unfortunately, I think that in too many cases 350 00:20:36,360 --> 00:20:40,822 that plain the discussion around plainness has only to do with dress. 351 00:20:41,531 --> 00:20:44,534 And I think that's an important discussion, don't get me wrong there. 352 00:20:44,576 --> 00:20:48,205 But I think also that we we have particularly among 353 00:20:48,247 --> 00:20:52,542 some conservative Mennonite groups, we really have lost the 354 00:20:53,085 --> 00:20:55,879 the idea that plainness is supposed to impact everything. 355 00:20:55,879 --> 00:20:57,005 It's supposed to impact the car 356 00:20:57,005 --> 00:21:01,176 that we drive, supposed to impact the kind of houses we build, what how we 357 00:21:01,551 --> 00:21:05,973 how we decorate our houses, how we adorn our houses. 358 00:21:07,224 --> 00:21:10,435 You know, it it seems to me that I, 359 00:21:11,019 --> 00:21:14,189 I go, I've been into place or think, well, this is, 360 00:21:14,940 --> 00:21:18,485 these people dress plain, but they don't live plain, Whereas I think 361 00:21:18,485 --> 00:21:21,738 an earlier understanding would have an earlier understanding addressed that. 362 00:21:21,989 --> 00:21:24,616 And there are still some groups that do address that. 363 00:21:24,616 --> 00:21:27,619 Okay. They do address that. 364 00:21:27,995 --> 00:21:31,999 They tend to be, on the more conservative end of things. 365 00:21:32,332 --> 00:21:33,667 Okay. 366 00:21:33,667 --> 00:21:38,130 One of the things that we experience in the 21st century 367 00:21:38,755 --> 00:21:41,758 that has changed 368 00:21:41,758 --> 00:21:44,761 as compared to earlier centuries, 369 00:21:44,803 --> 00:21:47,222 when some of these 370 00:21:47,222 --> 00:21:51,184 early conversations about plainness in the Quaker Mennonite world started 371 00:21:51,601 --> 00:21:55,355 is that we have mass production of clothing 372 00:21:56,106 --> 00:22:00,360 in a way that wasn't entirely congruent with how it previously was. 373 00:22:00,986 --> 00:22:03,572 So can custom handmade 374 00:22:03,572 --> 00:22:08,660 clothing, which is often a significant part of the way 375 00:22:09,161 --> 00:22:12,164 conservative Mennonites define plainness today. 376 00:22:12,581 --> 00:22:14,499 Can that plausibly be regarded 377 00:22:15,917 --> 00:22:18,920 as plain? 378 00:22:19,755 --> 00:22:21,882 You mean people making their own clothes? 379 00:22:21,882 --> 00:22:24,051 Yes. Okay. 380 00:22:24,051 --> 00:22:27,054 Yeah, I think so. 381 00:22:28,221 --> 00:22:31,224 So. Well, let me let me, just go back and look at this. 382 00:22:31,516 --> 00:22:32,642 All right. 383 00:22:32,642 --> 00:22:34,311 There's this myth, okay? 384 00:22:34,311 --> 00:22:37,314 There's this myth. People love myths. 385 00:22:37,564 --> 00:22:37,981 You know? 386 00:22:37,981 --> 00:22:38,982 They just love them. 387 00:22:38,982 --> 00:22:42,569 And and the thing about Myths is that they serve a very didactic purpose. 388 00:22:43,111 --> 00:22:44,780 Okay, but there's this myth 389 00:22:44,780 --> 00:22:48,367 that plainness came into the Mennonite church in the 20th century 390 00:22:48,367 --> 00:22:54,289 through Western revivalists like, like, John S Kaufman and A.D. 391 00:22:54,331 --> 00:22:56,375 Wanger and ... from Virginia. 392 00:22:56,375 --> 00:23:00,295 But those kinds of people that this is when we began to see people, 393 00:23:00,587 --> 00:23:04,925 you know, going to more of a defined plain style 394 00:23:05,092 --> 00:23:08,220 and so on, women putting coverings on and everything like this and so on. 395 00:23:08,762 --> 00:23:11,181 That's, that's a myth, 396 00:23:12,307 --> 00:23:15,018 because, 397 00:23:15,018 --> 00:23:18,021 it wasn't something new, as my, 398 00:23:18,271 --> 00:23:21,608 my friend James Lowry used to say, 399 00:23:22,526 --> 00:23:26,071 do we think that the old orders were looking in through the windows 400 00:23:26,071 --> 00:23:29,408 at the revival meetings and picking up the fact that they should dress plain? 401 00:23:31,743 --> 00:23:32,327 Okay. 402 00:23:32,327 --> 00:23:33,328 Oh, no, they weren't. 403 00:23:33,328 --> 00:23:38,250 They weren't there at those revival meetings listening to John S Kaufman or. 404 00:23:38,250 --> 00:23:41,670 Or Daniel Kaufman or whoever, advocating plain dress. 405 00:23:41,670 --> 00:23:42,421 Okay. 406 00:23:42,421 --> 00:23:47,175 There's something, intrinsic there, that isn't part of the tradition and so on. 407 00:23:47,551 --> 00:23:50,846 Now, what you do have happening actually in the 19th century, 408 00:23:50,846 --> 00:23:55,142 and it is a result of industrialization and an industrialization, 409 00:23:55,142 --> 00:23:59,521 first of all, in this country hit the hit, the cloth making industry. 410 00:23:59,521 --> 00:24:00,313 Okay. 411 00:24:00,313 --> 00:24:04,025 And all of a sudden, cloth which was produced in a very laborious 412 00:24:04,192 --> 00:24:07,737 process of hand looms, weaving pieces of cloth. 413 00:24:07,737 --> 00:24:11,241 I mean, you just did not have a lot of clothes unless you are very wealthy. 414 00:24:11,241 --> 00:24:12,826 Wealthy person. 415 00:24:12,826 --> 00:24:14,995 Okay? You do not have a lot of clothes. 416 00:24:16,079 --> 00:24:17,122 Styles for 417 00:24:17,122 --> 00:24:20,667 ordinary people did not change that way, even in general society. 418 00:24:21,042 --> 00:24:25,297 Okay, so, but with the Industrial Revolution 419 00:24:25,297 --> 00:24:27,382 and all of a sudden all this 420 00:24:27,382 --> 00:24:31,261 machine woven cloth cloth becomes much more readily available. 421 00:24:31,428 --> 00:24:34,681 The other nice thing is, is that they can actually do some things with it. 422 00:24:34,973 --> 00:24:35,932 They can print it, 423 00:24:35,932 --> 00:24:38,935 they can put nice little flowers on it and everything like that. 424 00:24:39,227 --> 00:24:42,355 And, and so this becomes much more 425 00:24:42,355 --> 00:24:45,442 available cloth becomes much more cheaper. 426 00:24:45,692 --> 00:24:49,738 And you will see a corresponding, how shall we say, increase, 427 00:24:51,156 --> 00:24:52,282 fashion. Okay. 428 00:24:52,282 --> 00:24:54,075 Now there was always fashion. 429 00:24:54,075 --> 00:24:54,326 Okay. 430 00:24:54,326 --> 00:24:58,997 But fashion was almost always the purview of the wealthy, of people 431 00:24:58,997 --> 00:25:02,042 who had lots of money and could afford, 432 00:25:03,001 --> 00:25:05,378 you know, lots of clothes, all right. 433 00:25:05,378 --> 00:25:06,713 Because the clothes had to. 434 00:25:06,713 --> 00:25:08,798 The cloth had to be hand woven. 435 00:25:08,798 --> 00:25:10,258 It had to be cut out by hand. 436 00:25:10,258 --> 00:25:12,427 It had to be sewed with a needle and thread. 437 00:25:12,427 --> 00:25:15,764 But in the 19th century, we have all sudden this new technology 438 00:25:16,348 --> 00:25:19,768 in which cloth is woven on machines, and we have sewing machines. 439 00:25:19,768 --> 00:25:21,478 And so it becomes much more easy. 440 00:25:21,478 --> 00:25:24,481 And we begin to have mass produced, ready made clothing. 441 00:25:24,689 --> 00:25:25,732 All right. 442 00:25:25,732 --> 00:25:29,402 And so it's at this particular point, I think probably in the, 443 00:25:29,611 --> 00:25:35,492 let's say the toward the end of the third of the first, third of the 19th century, 444 00:25:36,034 --> 00:25:39,579 that clothing becomes much more readily available and that 445 00:25:40,664 --> 00:25:41,331 plain people 446 00:25:41,331 --> 00:25:44,334 have to deal with this issue of clothing. 447 00:25:44,417 --> 00:25:46,253 Okay, of clothing. 448 00:25:46,253 --> 00:25:50,340 Now, most clothing still in the 19th century is produced at home. 449 00:25:51,299 --> 00:25:51,716 Okay. 450 00:25:51,716 --> 00:25:54,386 Most of it is, unless you're really well to do. 451 00:25:54,386 --> 00:25:55,762 And you go to a tailor 452 00:25:55,762 --> 00:25:59,724 and you have a tailor or dressmaker, make your clothing, make your clothing. 453 00:25:59,724 --> 00:26:01,434 But that's that's sort of the exception. 454 00:26:01,434 --> 00:26:04,437 Again, that's for something for the for the people who are really well-to-do. 455 00:26:05,105 --> 00:26:08,108 And it's at this particular point that you begin to see, 456 00:26:08,191 --> 00:26:13,154 I think, begin to see kind of a shift in Mennonite communities, 457 00:26:13,446 --> 00:26:16,533 particularly as clothing as, as clothing becomes 458 00:26:16,908 --> 00:26:19,786 more clothing becomes much more easily accessible. 459 00:26:19,786 --> 00:26:23,290 And you have a particularly among Mennonites 460 00:26:23,290 --> 00:26:26,293 not so much among the Amish, but among Mennonites. 461 00:26:26,376 --> 00:26:29,379 You have this this distinction between 462 00:26:30,463 --> 00:26:30,922 people 463 00:26:30,922 --> 00:26:34,092 who, young people who are not part of the church 464 00:26:34,092 --> 00:26:37,137 and how they dress and how their parents dress. 465 00:26:37,512 --> 00:26:40,515 And then you also have, I think, a development simply, 466 00:26:40,682 --> 00:26:44,561 and particularly some quarters, particularly in the western states, 467 00:26:44,561 --> 00:26:48,690 somewhat in Virginia, even, interestingly enough, some in Franconia area, 468 00:26:48,982 --> 00:26:51,776 a lesser degree in Lancaster, 469 00:26:51,776 --> 00:26:55,572 very lesser degree in my area in Washington, Franklin counties. 470 00:26:56,031 --> 00:26:59,492 And so you begin to have people who are 471 00:27:00,702 --> 00:27:03,913 their dress is not traditionally plain 472 00:27:03,913 --> 00:27:08,251 or it may have altercations to it There’s this very interesting story. 473 00:27:08,251 --> 00:27:09,878 In 1890s. 474 00:27:09,878 --> 00:27:11,171 Katie. 475 00:27:11,171 --> 00:27:15,634 Katie Martin, who later on, married J.D. 476 00:27:15,634 --> 00:27:18,845 Bronk the songwriter and hymnalogist and so on. 477 00:27:19,471 --> 00:27:22,474 She tells the story about when she was, 478 00:27:22,599 --> 00:27:26,353 when, Bishop Michael Hurst and, who's the deacon? 479 00:27:26,603 --> 00:27:28,146 I forget who the deacon was. 480 00:27:28,146 --> 00:27:29,439 Came and visited her. 481 00:27:29,439 --> 00:27:31,983 Prior to her baptism. 482 00:27:31,983 --> 00:27:35,487 The style in the 1890s was for women to have these 483 00:27:35,695 --> 00:27:39,115 kind of mutton chops, sort of shoulders and so on, their dresses and so on, 484 00:27:39,699 --> 00:27:44,496 and she tells the story that the, the they said to her, I think one of the 485 00:27:45,246 --> 00:27:48,333 the bishop or deacon just kind of pinched the thing and said, we'd like to see 486 00:27:48,333 --> 00:27:49,501 a little less of these. 487 00:27:51,127 --> 00:27:54,839 And, and so, now, so when 488 00:27:55,632 --> 00:27:59,719 so you it's interesting when you look at pictures of plain 489 00:27:59,719 --> 00:28:02,847 dress people in the 19th century, early 20th century, 490 00:28:03,181 --> 00:28:06,643 how much current fashions 491 00:28:07,644 --> 00:28:10,563 influence plain dress? 492 00:28:10,563 --> 00:28:11,564 All right. 493 00:28:11,564 --> 00:28:13,274 And you see that today. 494 00:28:13,274 --> 00:28:14,526 All right. You see that today? 495 00:28:14,526 --> 00:28:18,446 I mean, they might have a cape, but you might also see these mutton chops. 496 00:28:18,822 --> 00:28:20,198 Shoulders. Okay. 497 00:28:20,198 --> 00:28:24,452 What's really curious, in the 1920s is when you see 498 00:28:25,328 --> 00:28:28,206 cape dresses that look like they're flapper 499 00:28:28,206 --> 00:28:32,293 dresses, they have this long waist that go down to about the hips and so on. 500 00:28:32,293 --> 00:28:34,963 You may see pictures of them. It's really odd. 501 00:28:34,963 --> 00:28:36,214 It's really very hot. 502 00:28:36,214 --> 00:28:39,718 But they're technically they have they have a Cape Cape on. 503 00:28:39,968 --> 00:28:42,929 But it's really, you know, trying to imitate 504 00:28:42,929 --> 00:28:47,350 a then fashion and style and society in general, 505 00:28:47,475 --> 00:28:52,355 particularly as communication becomes more advanced, as styles change and so on. 506 00:28:53,523 --> 00:28:56,526 You know, they, they have impacts and so on. 507 00:28:56,568 --> 00:29:00,113 And I think actually that is what is happening 508 00:29:00,739 --> 00:29:03,783 with some of these revivalist who are 509 00:29:04,325 --> 00:29:07,746 they are convinced that it's necessary for us to be a plain people 510 00:29:08,079 --> 00:29:12,459 and that what's happening in, in their advocating this 511 00:29:12,459 --> 00:29:15,462 and then in some cases, people picking up on it 512 00:29:15,545 --> 00:29:19,632 is that it's, it's bringing back into into prominence 513 00:29:19,632 --> 00:29:23,303 and it's just simply an earlier practice that was this is just the way it was. 514 00:29:23,636 --> 00:29:24,220 Okay. 515 00:29:24,220 --> 00:29:28,600 But changes had happened and now there's an attempt to reverse some of the changes. 516 00:29:29,142 --> 00:29:32,061 Most of those were not, in the long run, successful. 517 00:29:32,061 --> 00:29:33,021 Okay. 518 00:29:33,021 --> 00:29:33,772 I mean that 519 00:29:33,772 --> 00:29:36,941 some of them were but not some are not in the long run, very successful. 520 00:29:38,151 --> 00:29:41,821 At Anabaptist perspectives, our ambition 521 00:29:42,614 --> 00:29:46,618 or our vision is to encourage allegiance to Jesus Kingdom. 522 00:29:47,952 --> 00:29:48,369 How does 523 00:29:48,369 --> 00:29:52,123 being plain support such allegiance? 524 00:29:52,665 --> 00:29:56,211 If so, what way of being plain? 525 00:29:57,629 --> 00:30:01,299 Well, you know, going back to the, to the thing 526 00:30:01,299 --> 00:30:04,677 from the Society of Friends discipline, it talks about, 527 00:30:05,094 --> 00:30:08,097 the fact that, you know, 528 00:30:09,599 --> 00:30:12,602 there's something when it comes to pride. 529 00:30:13,269 --> 00:30:13,895 Okay. 530 00:30:13,895 --> 00:30:18,274 These are all manifestations of pride and pride is not a good thing. 531 00:30:19,025 --> 00:30:19,317 Okay. 532 00:30:19,317 --> 00:30:21,903 Now, pride can also be something that, you know, 533 00:30:21,903 --> 00:30:24,322 it can be manifest in different kinds of ways. 534 00:30:24,322 --> 00:30:28,243 But one of the things that's interesting about an Anabaptist perspective, 535 00:30:28,535 --> 00:30:31,704 I hesitate to use the term Anabaptist, but sometimes you're stuck with it. 536 00:30:31,996 --> 00:30:34,707 You guys ought to get another name. Yes. 537 00:30:34,707 --> 00:30:36,960 I don't, I know, I wish we all would just jetison 538 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,504 the term Anabaptist and find some other term. 539 00:30:39,504 --> 00:30:42,924 That's why when people ask me what I am, I tell them I'm a Mennonite right? 540 00:30:42,924 --> 00:30:45,718 I prefer that than saying I'm an Anabaptist. 541 00:30:45,718 --> 00:30:47,720 But anyhow, that's just a beef of mine. 542 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:52,433 But, among Mennonites and Amish. 543 00:30:53,059 --> 00:30:53,434 Okay. 544 00:30:55,687 --> 00:30:57,939 Pride I think if you talk about like 545 00:30:57,939 --> 00:31:01,734 if you talk about pride, in a by, 546 00:31:02,402 --> 00:31:05,446 if somebody is reformed and they talk a Calvinist, they talk about 547 00:31:05,446 --> 00:31:08,950 pride, they're talking about an inner condition condition primarily 548 00:31:09,409 --> 00:31:13,413 if if you think about it in a pietistic kind of way, it's an inner condition. 549 00:31:13,746 --> 00:31:17,375 Now, I don't think anybody would deny that's an inner condition. 550 00:31:17,542 --> 00:31:18,501 Okay. 551 00:31:18,501 --> 00:31:22,130 But the to me, the genius 552 00:31:23,298 --> 00:31:25,216 of of quote unquote. 553 00:31:25,216 --> 00:31:27,260 I’m gonna use the term Anabaptist okay. 554 00:31:27,260 --> 00:31:30,263 The genius of Anabaptism is that it does not 555 00:31:30,305 --> 00:31:33,975 separate the inward disposition from the outward life. 556 00:31:34,392 --> 00:31:40,398 And so if you see pride being expressed in a person's 557 00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:43,943 the way they live, the way they dress, what their houses are like, 558 00:31:44,235 --> 00:31:47,655 then one can, I think, pretty well assume that they are proud 559 00:31:47,655 --> 00:31:50,658 there's something inside of them is proud. 560 00:31:50,950 --> 00:31:54,037 Now one can be proud and hide things 561 00:31:54,037 --> 00:31:57,332 to you know one can be proud about being plain, 562 00:31:58,833 --> 00:32:01,002 some of which is curious, isn't it? 563 00:32:01,002 --> 00:32:06,925 But but one of the things I would notice and I got this idea 564 00:32:06,925 --> 00:32:10,553 actually, from Aaron Slabaugh, he talks about the fact that 565 00:32:11,846 --> 00:32:13,848 when it came to humility 566 00:32:13,848 --> 00:32:18,144 that Mennonites and Amish objectified it. 567 00:32:18,645 --> 00:32:18,937 Okay. 568 00:32:18,937 --> 00:32:23,066 They made it an objective reality, not just simply a disposition of the heart. 569 00:32:23,691 --> 00:32:24,067 Okay? 570 00:32:24,067 --> 00:32:27,862 And it's a objective reality that expresses itself in various ways. 571 00:32:28,237 --> 00:32:29,364 Okay. 572 00:32:29,364 --> 00:32:32,325 And so I think that 573 00:32:33,242 --> 00:32:36,913 that that still has a that's still a valid way of looking at things. 574 00:32:37,580 --> 00:32:38,164 Okay. 575 00:32:38,164 --> 00:32:41,376 Pride is the original sin. 576 00:32:42,585 --> 00:32:43,920 Okay. 577 00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:47,590 It's as as John M Brennaman talks about it is it his tract 578 00:32:47,590 --> 00:32:50,593 pride and humility. 579 00:32:51,386 --> 00:32:54,222 I think the spiritual roots 580 00:32:54,222 --> 00:32:57,266 of not patterned ourselves after world 581 00:32:57,266 --> 00:33:01,020 as, as, Paul said, you know, be, be 582 00:33:01,020 --> 00:33:05,066 ye not conformed to the world, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind. 583 00:33:05,608 --> 00:33:08,778 Okay? The patterns of the world, okay? 584 00:33:08,778 --> 00:33:12,699 Are in opposition to godliness. 585 00:33:13,408 --> 00:33:15,785 And they express themselves 586 00:33:15,785 --> 00:33:19,872 not only in inward dispositions, but in objective ways. 587 00:33:20,415 --> 00:33:23,126 And I think plainness is an effort 588 00:33:23,126 --> 00:33:27,296 to deal with that reality. 589 00:33:27,505 --> 00:33:32,552 And the other thing that I think also that perhaps today we have lost somewhat 590 00:33:33,177 --> 00:33:37,223 is that particularly when it comes to, I think about how some of our 591 00:33:37,223 --> 00:33:40,226 how houses are built and how they're decorated and so on. 592 00:33:40,643 --> 00:33:44,397 It is the idea that we are actually 593 00:33:44,397 --> 00:33:48,234 not identifying with the elite in the world. 594 00:33:48,484 --> 00:33:51,237 We are not patterned ourselves after the elite, but we are. 595 00:33:51,237 --> 00:33:56,492 We are finding a common, ordinary, simple though I hate. 596 00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:00,038 I hesitate to use the word simple because some people run with that 597 00:34:00,997 --> 00:34:02,498 way of life. 598 00:34:02,498 --> 00:34:04,584 Okay, in a sense. 599 00:34:04,584 --> 00:34:06,711 In a sense, it's almost. 600 00:34:06,711 --> 00:34:09,213 impoverishing ourselves. 601 00:34:09,213 --> 00:34:11,424 Okay. 602 00:34:11,424 --> 00:34:13,593 Forgive me if I misunderstand you, 603 00:34:13,593 --> 00:34:17,805 but you seem to be an apologist for plainness. 604 00:34:18,723 --> 00:34:22,435 Most Christians are not practitioners of plainness. 605 00:34:22,894 --> 00:34:26,355 So I'm curious how you would make the case for plainness to believers 606 00:34:26,355 --> 00:34:29,358 who aren't presently plain. 607 00:34:30,443 --> 00:34:31,861 No, that's a good question. 608 00:34:31,861 --> 00:34:33,821 Yeah. 609 00:34:33,821 --> 00:34:37,408 I guess I could say I'm an apologist for me for plainness. 610 00:34:39,077 --> 00:34:40,536 Well, 611 00:34:40,536 --> 00:34:43,289 you know, the I guess the question 612 00:34:43,289 --> 00:34:46,292 that I would, would address is, 613 00:34:47,418 --> 00:34:49,670 you know, when you look at, 614 00:34:49,670 --> 00:34:53,424 when let's just simply take dress for example, okay. 615 00:34:53,883 --> 00:34:57,220 When, when I see some and this is kind of indirect, 616 00:34:57,220 --> 00:35:00,223 what you're dealing with when I see some young Mennonite guys 617 00:35:01,349 --> 00:35:03,643 where, cut their hair, where they had these really, 618 00:35:03,643 --> 00:35:06,646 I think what they call tight and high haircuts, 619 00:35:07,396 --> 00:35:12,235 you know, it's really, really, it's really shaved kind of on the side. 620 00:35:12,235 --> 00:35:14,153 And it's this top stuff here. So. 621 00:35:14,153 --> 00:35:15,571 But where did that come from? 622 00:35:17,573 --> 00:35:19,826 Where where did that come from? 623 00:35:19,826 --> 00:35:22,829 Well, it comes from the world. 624 00:35:23,037 --> 00:35:26,040 It comes from it comes from the fashion industry. 625 00:35:26,666 --> 00:35:27,959 So it does. 626 00:35:27,959 --> 00:35:31,671 And it's a look and it it conveys a message. 627 00:35:32,505 --> 00:35:33,381 All right. 628 00:35:33,381 --> 00:35:36,384 It really makes an appeal to, to 629 00:35:36,634 --> 00:35:39,637 our it's a visual appeal to us. 630 00:35:39,804 --> 00:35:40,096 Okay. 631 00:35:40,096 --> 00:35:42,682 It calls attention to to somebody’s looks. 632 00:35:42,682 --> 00:35:43,516 Now that changes. 633 00:35:43,516 --> 00:35:46,310 And that's the thing about fashions it changes okay. 634 00:35:46,310 --> 00:35:50,773 And what's really in now or what's really, attractive and and appealing 635 00:35:50,773 --> 00:35:54,819 to the senses now may change, but there's often some similarities to it. 636 00:35:55,027 --> 00:35:56,237 Okay. 637 00:35:56,237 --> 00:35:59,574 And so the question I often want to ask people is 638 00:35:59,574 --> 00:36:02,535 where is where did that come from? 639 00:36:03,911 --> 00:36:09,000 And the people who invented it or came up with that particular way 640 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:12,879 of, let's say, cutting your hair or that particular way of dressing? 641 00:36:13,796 --> 00:36:14,505 Okay. 642 00:36:14,505 --> 00:36:17,216 What was motivating that? 643 00:36:18,467 --> 00:36:21,470 it was not a desire to serve God. 644 00:36:21,554 --> 00:36:24,015 It was not a desire to be modest. 645 00:36:24,015 --> 00:36:28,019 It was not a desire to not call attention to how to your body. 646 00:36:28,978 --> 00:36:30,062 Okay. 647 00:36:30,062 --> 00:36:34,150 But it was actually comes a desire to accentuate all that. 648 00:36:35,568 --> 00:36:36,986 All right. 649 00:36:36,986 --> 00:36:39,989 And that's what drives the whole fashion industry. 650 00:36:40,448 --> 00:36:41,782 Okay. 651 00:36:41,782 --> 00:36:45,328 So my so to me now 652 00:36:45,369 --> 00:36:49,040 you know, as far as the particulars of how it works itself out, 653 00:36:50,082 --> 00:36:54,420 okay, of how quote unquote plainness works itself out in a Mennonite 654 00:36:54,420 --> 00:36:57,590 or Amish or German Baptist context. 655 00:36:58,382 --> 00:37:01,385 You know, I think they work really well. 656 00:37:02,178 --> 00:37:04,513 I have no quarrel with them. Okay. 657 00:37:04,513 --> 00:37:08,059 They accomplished the thing that I think they need to accomplish. 658 00:37:08,601 --> 00:37:09,227 Okay. 659 00:37:09,227 --> 00:37:13,314 But that does not say that those ways of doing it 660 00:37:14,190 --> 00:37:16,108 are necessarily the only ways of doing it. 661 00:37:18,361 --> 00:37:21,364 There could be, different ways of doing it 662 00:37:21,781 --> 00:37:23,908 that are equally as valid, 663 00:37:23,908 --> 00:37:26,911 get the job done and so on. 664 00:37:27,787 --> 00:37:30,081 My, my personal opinion is, 665 00:37:30,081 --> 00:37:33,709 is that being a Mennonite, I don't need to reinvent the wheel. 666 00:37:35,044 --> 00:37:38,047 There's a pattern, there's a style. 667 00:37:38,047 --> 00:37:40,341 There's a way of doing this that really works. 668 00:37:40,341 --> 00:37:43,010 Well, I think works well. 669 00:37:43,010 --> 00:37:47,306 And it also places me in continuity with with the church 670 00:37:47,306 --> 00:37:50,685 in the past, which I'm part of as well as hopefully the church of the future, 671 00:37:50,685 --> 00:37:55,022 which I'm part of in the church of today, it identifies me as something 672 00:37:55,022 --> 00:38:00,903 I it's really interesting story about, this, plainly dressed woman. 673 00:38:00,903 --> 00:38:03,030 And it's a true story, because. 674 00:38:03,030 --> 00:38:05,157 Yeah, happened to somebody I know this plainly dressed woman 675 00:38:05,157 --> 00:38:08,494 at an airport where some evangelical came up to her and said, 676 00:38:09,537 --> 00:38:10,246 you don't need to 677 00:38:10,246 --> 00:38:13,249 dress that way to be a Christian. 678 00:38:13,457 --> 00:38:16,460 And she said, well, how did you know I was a Christian? 679 00:38:17,670 --> 00:38:20,423 It was because of her dress. 680 00:38:20,423 --> 00:38:21,632 Okay. 681 00:38:21,632 --> 00:38:24,176 It was because of her dress. 682 00:38:24,176 --> 00:38:28,889 But but the foundational thing is, you know, when we talk about, 683 00:38:29,432 --> 00:38:33,060 you know, and one of the things I think we need to understand 684 00:38:33,060 --> 00:38:36,897 is that the particular pattern of plain dress that we have 685 00:38:38,316 --> 00:38:40,651 has is not static, okay? 686 00:38:40,651 --> 00:38:44,155 It's not static, but it is rooted in 687 00:38:44,363 --> 00:38:47,366 what went before and in many cases, 688 00:38:47,783 --> 00:38:52,621 the pattern that came up was a response to what was happening 689 00:38:53,247 --> 00:38:56,751 in the larger society and saying, no, we don't want to do that. 690 00:38:57,209 --> 00:38:59,337 Let's take, for example, the plain coat. 691 00:38:59,337 --> 00:39:00,463 Okay. 692 00:39:00,463 --> 00:39:03,674 Now, I think this is an issue for many people. 693 00:39:03,674 --> 00:39:07,678 And this is interesting to me, particularly because it impacts men. 694 00:39:08,137 --> 00:39:09,722 Men, there are 695 00:39:09,722 --> 00:39:12,975 there are men in our plain churches who resist wearing a plain coat, 696 00:39:13,100 --> 00:39:16,479 and yet they want their wives to wear a cape, dress and dress plain. 697 00:39:17,313 --> 00:39:20,024 There seems to be to me a fundamental inequity there. 698 00:39:21,150 --> 00:39:22,318 Okay. 699 00:39:22,318 --> 00:39:25,529 And they could come up with good, rational reasons why they don't want to do this, 700 00:39:25,529 --> 00:39:27,782 why they don't want to wear a plain coat okay. And say, well, it cost money. 701 00:39:27,782 --> 00:39:29,992 Well, you know, I hear that. 702 00:39:29,992 --> 00:39:31,911 And then I look at what their wardrobe is, right? 703 00:39:31,911 --> 00:39:32,536 And I think, well, 704 00:39:32,536 --> 00:39:35,956 I bet you spent more money on your wardrobe than I ever spent on a coat. 705 00:39:36,832 --> 00:39:37,666 All right. 706 00:39:37,666 --> 00:39:41,462 But but the other thing is, when you think about a plain coat. 707 00:39:42,380 --> 00:39:42,713 All right. 708 00:39:42,713 --> 00:39:43,339 What is it? 709 00:39:43,339 --> 00:39:46,175 Well, it buttons up to your throat. 710 00:39:46,175 --> 00:39:46,842 Okay. 711 00:39:46,842 --> 00:39:50,221 Now, if anybody was designing a coat 712 00:39:51,555 --> 00:39:54,850 for practical reasons, what would they do? 713 00:39:55,309 --> 00:39:56,602 They would design a coat. 714 00:39:56,602 --> 00:39:58,521 That buttoned up to your throat. 715 00:39:58,521 --> 00:40:01,273 They would not design a coat, which 716 00:40:02,233 --> 00:40:05,611 you turn the collar over and you have this thing that comes down to V, 717 00:40:05,611 --> 00:40:07,655 and there's these two little or three buttons down at the bottom, 718 00:40:07,655 --> 00:40:08,364 and you come in 719 00:40:08,364 --> 00:40:11,492 and it's there that nobody would design a coat for any practical reason. 720 00:40:12,118 --> 00:40:13,536 Why did they do that? 721 00:40:13,536 --> 00:40:17,331 Well, in the 19th century and the first half of the 19th century, 722 00:40:17,540 --> 00:40:20,543 as fashions, began to develop. 723 00:40:20,584 --> 00:40:22,086 All right, we have the collar, 724 00:40:22,086 --> 00:40:24,505 the standing collar, and it gets higher and higher. 725 00:40:24,505 --> 00:40:26,841 It goes higher and higher up still reaches up to the ears. 726 00:40:26,841 --> 00:40:28,634 What can hardly go any farther than that. 727 00:40:28,634 --> 00:40:29,844 And so what did they do? 728 00:40:29,844 --> 00:40:32,847 Well, the next style is to turn it over the roll it. 729 00:40:33,639 --> 00:40:36,642 Okay, well once they roll it, then it creates these lapels. 730 00:40:37,309 --> 00:40:37,768 All right. 731 00:40:37,768 --> 00:40:40,896 And then what you have to do well you have to start wearing long ties. 732 00:40:40,896 --> 00:40:43,107 Now there were bow ties before that. But bow ties were 733 00:40:43,107 --> 00:40:47,528 actually, were neckerchiefs to close the collar of a shirt. 734 00:40:48,028 --> 00:40:52,283 Here I'm getting into the particulars of of dress of rest. But 735 00:40:53,284 --> 00:40:56,287 I think I mean, that's my personal opinion. 736 00:40:56,620 --> 00:41:00,332 I think a plain coat makes the most sense of any coat I've ever seen, 737 00:41:01,083 --> 00:41:03,544 because it buttons up to the throat. 738 00:41:03,544 --> 00:41:05,963 The only reason to wear a lapel coat. 739 00:41:05,963 --> 00:41:08,716 The only rationale for that is fashion. 740 00:41:08,716 --> 00:41:10,843 It's not. It's not a sensible coat. 741 00:41:10,843 --> 00:41:12,803 Nobody would design a coat like that for fashion. 742 00:41:12,803 --> 00:41:14,346 The only for for practicality. 743 00:41:14,346 --> 00:41:16,724 They only decide it for fashion. 744 00:41:16,724 --> 00:41:19,143 Okay, I've also kind of found it interesting 745 00:41:19,143 --> 00:41:21,353 when I and I have known people like this 746 00:41:21,353 --> 00:41:23,105 who resist the idea of wearing a plain coat, 747 00:41:23,105 --> 00:41:26,192 and they come up with all these rationales why they shouldn't wear a plain coat. 748 00:41:26,192 --> 00:41:27,693 It's not necessarily to wear a plain coat. 749 00:41:27,693 --> 00:41:30,237 And if they leave a group where that's what's expected, 750 00:41:30,237 --> 00:41:32,948 and they go to another group where it's not expecting, guess what? 751 00:41:32,948 --> 00:41:34,241 They put on a lapel coat. 752 00:41:35,326 --> 00:41:37,703 Now, I do not want to judge the motives of people. 753 00:41:37,703 --> 00:41:41,165 But I began to wonder, was that really what your argument was about, 754 00:41:42,249 --> 00:41:44,752 or did you just simply want to blend in 755 00:41:44,752 --> 00:41:47,755 with the pattern of the world? 756 00:41:48,130 --> 00:41:51,342 so now not having said that, 757 00:41:51,383 --> 00:41:55,721 having said that, there may be indeed people who, you know, 758 00:41:56,263 --> 00:41:59,225 they have no contact, contact with plain people 759 00:41:59,225 --> 00:42:02,853 or with Mennonites or brethren or or or Amish or anything like that. 760 00:42:03,270 --> 00:42:06,565 And there they may come up with a pattern and maybe they'll wear lapel coat, 761 00:42:06,899 --> 00:42:07,983 you know. 762 00:42:07,983 --> 00:42:10,444 You know, I know, I know some groups in which 763 00:42:10,444 --> 00:42:13,447 they're really insistent that, 764 00:42:13,656 --> 00:42:14,907 that their men wear 765 00:42:14,907 --> 00:42:18,077 when they go to church, they wear a suit and a tie, a long black tie. 766 00:42:18,202 --> 00:42:19,411 That's their pattern. 767 00:42:19,411 --> 00:42:21,914 And that's in their minds. That's being nonconformist. 768 00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:25,709 I think that's a little silly way of being nonconformed. 769 00:42:25,709 --> 00:42:27,169 I mean, it does’nt make sense to me. 770 00:42:27,169 --> 00:42:30,214 And so but I can at least respect the idea 771 00:42:30,464 --> 00:42:33,634 that, that they have an understanding 772 00:42:33,801 --> 00:42:34,718 that we're not going to just simply go with every pattern of the world, 773 00:42:34,718 --> 00:42:38,514 that we're not going to just simply go with every pattern of the world, 774 00:42:38,514 --> 00:42:40,808 every new thing that comes down the track, 775 00:42:40,808 --> 00:42:46,438 every new thing that is basically comes out of a fashion industry 776 00:42:46,689 --> 00:42:49,483 that is wanting to sell things to you 777 00:42:49,483 --> 00:42:52,653 and does so by appealing to your fleshly senses. 778 00:42:54,029 --> 00:42:54,947 Okay. 779 00:42:54,947 --> 00:42:57,950 And when I see when I see Mennonites 780 00:42:59,076 --> 00:43:02,079 picking up aspects of that, 781 00:43:02,496 --> 00:43:04,665 that troubles me 782 00:43:04,665 --> 00:43:06,792 because they're not asking themselves, 783 00:43:06,792 --> 00:43:09,336 where does this come from? 784 00:43:09,336 --> 00:43:11,005 And what is the message? 785 00:43:11,005 --> 00:43:13,924 It's sending clothes send a message. 786 00:43:13,924 --> 00:43:17,636 Doesn't matter how you dress, it sends a message. 787 00:43:18,429 --> 00:43:20,514 You have to decide what is the message you want to send. 788 00:43:22,099 --> 00:43:24,768 Before we end this episode, 789 00:43:24,768 --> 00:43:27,771 is there more that you would like to add? 790 00:43:28,105 --> 00:43:31,108 Well, I guess I would have to say. 791 00:43:31,817 --> 00:43:34,862 I mean, I was baptized into the Mennonite. 792 00:43:35,070 --> 00:43:37,448 I was baptized, 793 00:43:37,448 --> 00:43:40,451 I guess I'll have to say, into the Mennonite church when I was 17 years old. 794 00:43:40,868 --> 00:43:42,161 All right. 795 00:43:42,161 --> 00:43:44,747 And I'm 64 years old, 796 00:43:44,747 --> 00:43:47,750 approaching my 65th birthday here next year. 797 00:43:48,834 --> 00:43:51,837 And I would say in the last 20 years. 798 00:43:54,006 --> 00:43:56,800 I have seen across the 799 00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:59,803 the spectrum, across the spectrum. 800 00:44:00,679 --> 00:44:02,765 I have seen 801 00:44:02,765 --> 00:44:05,184 more erosion 802 00:44:05,184 --> 00:44:07,394 among our conservative groups, 803 00:44:07,394 --> 00:44:10,105 groups that define themselves as plain. 804 00:44:10,105 --> 00:44:12,441 I've seen more erosion 805 00:44:12,441 --> 00:44:15,402 of plainness than before. 806 00:44:15,402 --> 00:44:17,780 Now for the conservative 807 00:44:17,780 --> 00:44:20,949 Mennonite groups who came out of the 808 00:44:21,325 --> 00:44:24,536 the groups that were assimilated in the 1950s and 60s. 809 00:44:24,745 --> 00:44:28,999 Okay, that generation who came out and I would even say for a while 810 00:44:28,999 --> 00:44:32,002 after that have very good sense 811 00:44:32,002 --> 00:44:35,005 of how things developed and how they looked at 812 00:44:35,255 --> 00:44:38,258 what what were some of the markers that some of the things that you 813 00:44:38,467 --> 00:44:41,261 would be alert to it as the next generations come along? 814 00:44:41,261 --> 00:44:43,847 They do not have that experiential understanding. 815 00:44:44,973 --> 00:44:46,225 Okay. 816 00:44:46,225 --> 00:44:49,770 And so they when they hear some things, okay. 817 00:44:49,770 --> 00:44:51,355 When they hear something, well, that sounds reasonable. 818 00:44:51,355 --> 00:44:54,191 Yeah. We do we have to do it this way. 819 00:44:54,191 --> 00:44:56,694 And so us old fogies. Okay. 820 00:44:56,694 --> 00:44:58,153 And I almost I think I'm like that. 821 00:44:58,153 --> 00:45:02,074 Us old guys, we've heard these these arguments before 822 00:45:03,242 --> 00:45:04,034 okay. 823 00:45:04,034 --> 00:45:07,037 And we can say you can go that way if you want to. 824 00:45:07,371 --> 00:45:09,164 But you look at this, these are the arguments 825 00:45:09,164 --> 00:45:10,749 that people are using back then. 826 00:45:10,749 --> 00:45:13,419 And look where it led them to. 827 00:45:13,419 --> 00:45:15,003 Okay. 828 00:45:15,003 --> 00:45:17,965 And so, I think that 829 00:45:17,965 --> 00:45:22,469 I think we, I think our churches as far as maintaining nonconformity, 830 00:45:22,678 --> 00:45:27,474 the practices of non-conformity are at a crisis. 831 00:45:28,058 --> 00:45:31,061 And I believe that across the board, I talked to, 832 00:45:31,270 --> 00:45:33,272 talked to an older Mennonite friend of mine recently. 833 00:45:33,272 --> 00:45:35,149 He said that they're one of the most recent conference, 834 00:45:35,149 --> 00:45:38,152 the most recent conference meetings that they had. 835 00:45:38,235 --> 00:45:40,779 The whole question of plainness and nonconformity 836 00:45:40,779 --> 00:45:43,699 was a big issue. 837 00:45:43,699 --> 00:45:45,617 Now it's hitting them at various different places. 838 00:45:45,617 --> 00:45:46,577 It is some other groups. 839 00:45:47,745 --> 00:45:48,662 the creation and 840 00:45:48,662 --> 00:45:51,665 maintenance of a plain culture 841 00:45:51,790 --> 00:45:55,377 with, with markers that define that 842 00:45:57,129 --> 00:46:00,632 do give some guidance to how we should let live 843 00:46:00,674 --> 00:46:03,719 it help us to avoid the wickedness of the world. 844 00:46:06,221 --> 00:46:08,390 So that that would be. 845 00:46:08,390 --> 00:46:11,101 And the other thing I would have to say is. 846 00:46:11,101 --> 00:46:14,104 Somehow we're going to have to address the inequity 847 00:46:14,897 --> 00:46:18,233 of what we insist upon for our women 848 00:46:18,567 --> 00:46:22,029 when it comes to their dress and what we allow our men to do. 849 00:46:23,363 --> 00:46:27,409 When when you walk down the street with your wife 850 00:46:28,786 --> 00:46:30,078 or with your sisters? 851 00:46:30,078 --> 00:46:31,789 With your mother. 852 00:46:31,789 --> 00:46:33,999 Okay. 853 00:46:33,999 --> 00:46:36,460 As a man, 854 00:46:36,460 --> 00:46:39,463 is it as obvious to everybody looking on 855 00:46:40,172 --> 00:46:43,175 that you are a Christian as it is 856 00:46:43,342 --> 00:46:46,345 that they're your women are a Christian? 857 00:46:47,179 --> 00:46:50,182 I think that I think we have made our women 858 00:46:50,599 --> 00:46:53,644 bear the burden of plainness 859 00:46:54,603 --> 00:46:57,606 when it comes to dress. 860 00:46:57,815 --> 00:46:59,775 And I think that is 861 00:46:59,775 --> 00:47:05,489 that is not going to work in the long run, because what will happen 862 00:47:05,489 --> 00:47:09,284 is that eventually the women's dress will change. 863 00:47:09,284 --> 00:47:12,287 Also. 864 00:47:12,412 --> 00:47:15,415 I believe that we will end the episode here. 865 00:47:16,208 --> 00:47:17,668 Thank you for listening to this 866 00:47:17,668 --> 00:47:20,671 episode of Anabaptist Perspectives. 867 00:47:20,796 --> 00:47:24,299 This is the second episode that we have recorded with Edsel Burdge. 868 00:47:24,758 --> 00:47:28,720 His previous episode, which was about theological concerns 869 00:47:28,720 --> 00:47:33,016 of Swiss Mennonites in America from 1730 to 1930, 870 00:47:33,642 --> 00:47:37,145 and every other episode and essay that we have published 871 00:47:37,521 --> 00:47:42,109 can be found at anabaptistperspectives.org.