Speaker: 00:00:00

We're not going to just simply go

with every pattern of the world,

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every new thing that comes down the track,

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every new thing that is basically comes

out of a fashion industry

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that is wanting to sell things to you

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and does so

by appealing to your fleshly senses.

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And when I see when I see Mennonites

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picking up aspects of that,

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that troubles me

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because they're not asking themselves,

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where does this come from?

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And what is the message?

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It's sending clothes send a message.

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It's sending clothes send a message.

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Doesn't matter how you dress,

it sends a message.

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You have to decide

what is the message you want to send.

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Welcome

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to this

episode of Anabaptist Perspectives.

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We are here to discuss being plain

with Edsel Burdge.

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Welcome, Edsel.

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Can you introduce yourself

to our audience?

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My name is at Edsel Burdge Junior

and I live in Shippensburg, Pennsylvania.

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I am, married with six children,

and I have seven grandchildren.

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I'm a member of Shippensburg Christian

Fellowship, which is a conservative,

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unaffiliated,

conservative Mennonite congregation.

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and I did not grow up in a Mennonite home.

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I started attending Mennonite Church

when I was 15

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and was baptized when I was 17.

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And then, I went to Eastern

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Mennonite College and graduated

with a bachelor's degree in history.

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Then I got a master's degree in history

from Villanova University,

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and I taught school for a number of years.

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I worked on a number of research

and writing projects.

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And, starting in 2012,

I started working as a research

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associate at the Young Center

for Anabaptist and Pietist Studies

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at Elizabethtown College,

which is where I am currently.

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And one of my major tasks is, compiling,

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statistical data on various plain groups,

particularly the Amish.

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When people ask me what I do,

I jokingly tell them that I, count Amish.

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And, so it is a joke. It is true.

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That is what I

one of the things I do, in 2004,

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my, my book

coauthored with Samuel Horst,

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building on the Gospel Foundation,

the Mennonites of Franklin County,

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Pennsylvania, and Washington County,

Maryland, 1730 to 1970,

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came out as part of the studies

on Anabaptism and Mennonite history series

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and,

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and, 2004, the third

volume of Documents of Brotherly Love,

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Dutch Mennonite Aid to Swiss Anabaptist,

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came out

and I was one of the coeditors of that,

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final volume

and that that document series.

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Fabulous.

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Thank you for the introduction.

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We are here to talk about being plain.

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Some communities of Christians

call themselves plain people.

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Many in our audience

see themselves as plain.

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But we have a diverse audience.

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So many listening probably do not

regard themselves as plain,

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and may not be familiar

with the way that we will be

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using the term in this episode.

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So let's begin

by situating and contextualizing the term

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and acknowledging its various definitions.

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Unadorned may be the most straightforward

and basic definition.

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So those who are interested

in 17th century Puritan literature

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may think of plain style as

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being clear, brief, sincere,

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distinctive dress

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code or symbolic religious apparel

may also come to many people's minds

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as characteristic of plainness.

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So let's begin

with the historic development

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of how these various definitions

interrelated over the years.

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Okay.

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Well, you know, Mennonites and Amish

in the, let's say, here in North America,

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an 18th, 19th century, their primary,

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language was German, not English.

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And the term,

plain is kind of an English word.

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I thought I would try to find out

what they use instead

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when they're talking German, and I

haven't been able to figure that out yet.

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I probably have to have a good a long

conversation with my friend Amos Hoover,

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who's really a specialist on that kind of,

those kind of linguistic questions.

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But the term plain,

I think actually we can,

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you talked about Puritan

plain style that had to do more with a, a

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type of preaching, not the elaborate,

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kind of high church Anglican preaching

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and so on, but more of a straightforward,

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systematic, kind of presentation.

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But as far as I can see, the,

the term plain in the sense

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that we talk about it

as kind of lifestyle issues,

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that that term was originally used

by the Society of Friends, by the Quakers.

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And I, I just want to read to you,

a section

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from the 1804, Discipline of Philadelphia

Yearly Meeting.

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The, the section on plainness.

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And this is a very Quakery

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language, but I think actually kind of

gets to the, to the, gist of what

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what the kind of things

we're talking about

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when we use the word

plain says plainness, advise

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that all friends, both old and young,

keep out of the world's corrupt language,

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manners, vain and needless

things and fashions

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in apparel, buildings

and furniture of houses,

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some of which are immodest,

indecent, and unbecoming,

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and that they avoid immoderation

and the use of lawful things, which,

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through, though innocent in themselves,

may thereby become hurtful.

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Also, such kinds of stuffs,

colors, and dress, as are calculated

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more to please a vain and wanton mind

than for real usefulness,

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and let tradesmen and others, members

of our religious society be admonished,

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that they be not a accessory

to those evils.

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For we ought to take up our daily cross,

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minding the grace of God,

which brings salvation,

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and teach us to deny all ungodliness,

worldly lusts,

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and to live soberly, righteously

and godly in the present world,

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that we may adorn the gospel of our Lord

Jesus Christ and all things.

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So may we feel his blessing

and being instrumental in his hand

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for the good of others.

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Now, I think

that's a pretty good definition of plain

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all right, even if it's not coming from

a, a Mennonite or Amish source.

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It's coming from an Anabaptist source.

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And I think that once, I, I,

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I think I,

this would need further documentation, but

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I think that as the,

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as Mennonites moved into

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using English more

even as they became bilingual,

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that, the this this Quaker term

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plain and everything it meant

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because in, in the 18th and

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and 19th

century, Quakers were also a plain people.

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There was a recognition of that.

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I mean, they had a distinctive garb.

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They had sort of a similar attitude toward

possessions and so on that Mennonites

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and Amish and German Baptist people had,

even some of their garb was very similar,

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not exactly alike, but very similar, in

how they looked and so on.

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And it

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was interesting.

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In the 1880s,

there was an orthodox Quaker,

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minister from Philadelphia,

the name of Joseph Elkinton who,

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spent about a year at various points,

not the whole year, but various points

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visiting the, church, Mennonite churches

in Franconia and Lancaster conference

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and both conferences

opened up their churches

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for him and appointed meetings for him.

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And they said that they would

probably not have done this for anybody

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other than a Quaker.

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And of course, this was a plain dressing,

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plain and a plain dressing,

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Quaker minister.

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And that was part of that thing

that, that made, made

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that made him acceptable

to these, these folks here.

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So I think that the term plain as it's

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used, perhaps originated with friends.

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And as Amish Mennonite people

began to use English

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more often,

they kind of took that term over.

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In fact,

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I had a conversation with an Old Order

Mennonite friend of mine about this.

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And you know what?

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What terms do you use?

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He said, we use plain even in Dutch,

we use plain.

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We talk about,

so they've they've borrowed this, this,

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this term plain, this English term, plain

and in Dutch and Pennsylvania Dutch.

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They, they use it.

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And I wonder now, what did they do,

what did they use before they, had that

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in some of the older literature,

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particularly I'm thinking of,

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and the 1840s,

I think it is there is, there is a,

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there's a manuscript, that records

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a, essentially what it's an Ordnung,

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set of standards, description

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of of

how various ordinances are to be performed

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and so on that Lancaster conference,

agreed to and there it talks

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about pride

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when it comes to dress.

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It talks about no pride, no arrogance.

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Actually term is no arrogance in dress and

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and so and not dressing like the world.

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Okay.

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And so even in the 1840s,

you know, I think

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even before that,

there's pretty strong evidence

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that there was

a distinctive style of dress,

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that was considered

to be plain. All right.

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And again,

as you mentioned, it really does mean

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unamended, unadorned,

stripped of unnecessary things.

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Okay.

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one of the things that's very interesting,

my, my friend,

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my late friend

Steve Scott, came across a reference

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in the Pennsylvania Gazette,

an 18th century, newspaper,

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and there was an advertisement

for a runaway indentured servant.

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And it says that he was dressed

in a Mennonite coat

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in a Mennonite coat.

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So even in the 18th century,

there was something about the coats

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that Mennonites wore that was distinctive

from the coats that everybody else wore.

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Or why would you say

he was dressed in a Mennonite coat?

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All right.

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So, so dress has always been

one of the aspects of plainness.

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Now, as friends, as, the thing of that,

the, disciplined Friends discipline

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says it's not just not, it's just not,

it's not just, coats are clothes.

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It's also your houses.

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Okay?

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It's also whatever else you might own,

that they're not it

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not be that it

basically be functional and unadorned.

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All right. And show moderation.

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Even the right use,

even the use of right of innocent things.

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Okay, so I think that's

what we mean about plainness.

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Okay.

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It's stripped of It's, it's,

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ornamentation and the basic rationale

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is to avoid pride

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and exalting oneself and how one looks,

what one’s possessions are.

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It really does

kind of have to do with the things we see.

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Okay. It really does.

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So that's very good historical context

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today.

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Many people regard themselves as plain.

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So can you give an overview

of the plain landscape today?

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And how do various groups

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or communities definitions of plainness

support what they value?

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Well, okay.

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Well, you know, that is a spectrum.

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And I would say that

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my my sense is that when we look at the

the variety of,

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quote unquote, plain Mennonites,

which going from old order to,

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I don't I'm

not sure how far to go down with that one.

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I would say that there are,

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there are on kind of the more progressive

and of conservative Mennonites.

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There are groups that I would describe

as being conservative,

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but not necessarily plain, plain.

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I think for a group to be plain,

there still does kind of

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have to be a somewhat defined,

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particularly in dress,

a somewhat defined dress, though

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admittedly that, for some of the groups,

that is always much more,

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noticeable and defined

for the women than it is for the men.

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and there's variation there.

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If you look, for example, at the Stauffer

Mennonite Church or the Pike

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Mennonite there,

their garb is very reminiscent.

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And this probably changed very little

from what Mennonite garb

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was in the 1840s when they split off

of the Lancaster Conference.

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Okay.

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So if you go to Lancaster County

and you encounter some, some, Stauffer

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Mennonites,

you are probably seen a pattern

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that was pretty

pretty much intact in the 1840s.

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Okay.

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Now, there may have been some change,

okay.

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But groups like that

tend to very conservative.

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Groups like that

tend to be very resistant to change.

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And so and and there's also as you compare

their dress to

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older styles of dress, to,

you know, costumes

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and dresses that are, you know,

maybe in museums or something like that.

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You can see that.

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Yeah. This is a pattern.

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It's pretty pretty much, like it.

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the history

or the spectrum of plain Mennonites.

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It really does

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reflect, first of all, their background,

248

00:14:29,743 --> 00:14:32,079

sometimes their regional background.

249

00:14:32,079 --> 00:14:35,082

And what was the practice

in that particular region?

250

00:14:35,249 --> 00:14:41,797

It reflects when in the 20th century,

as the larger

251

00:14:41,797 --> 00:14:45,759

Mennonite Church and Conservative

Mennonite Conference is assimilated,

252

00:14:46,176 --> 00:14:50,431

when persons who formed new groups

came out.

253

00:14:51,432 --> 00:14:55,561

Okay, the the later that they came out,

probably the less plain

254

00:14:55,895 --> 00:14:58,689

they are going to be

because they've been impacted

255

00:14:58,689 --> 00:15:01,525

by the assimilation

that happened prior to that.

256

00:15:01,525 --> 00:15:02,276

Okay.

257

00:15:02,276 --> 00:15:05,279

And so, one of the things

I think that explains, it's

258

00:15:05,279 --> 00:15:08,449

not the only thing, but one of the things

that explained that explains the ...

259

00:15:08,490 --> 00:15:11,911

of various plain groups has to do

260

00:15:11,911 --> 00:15:16,123

with when they formed

and what were the things that they were,

261

00:15:16,957 --> 00:15:21,003

were the issues for them leaving one group

and forming a new group?

262

00:15:21,253 --> 00:15:24,423

Okay. And typically speaking,

263

00:15:25,424 --> 00:15:26,717

the more,

264

00:15:26,717 --> 00:15:31,263

more recent that has happened,

because they participated

265

00:15:31,263 --> 00:15:34,224

in some assimilation,

the less plain they are.

266

00:15:35,809 --> 00:15:38,479

You may have already

partially answered this,

267

00:15:38,479 --> 00:15:41,690

but how do current dress code discussions

268

00:15:42,691 --> 00:15:46,278

relate to historic ideas of plainness?

269

00:15:47,279 --> 00:15:50,366

Well,

that depends on what the conversation is.

270

00:15:51,200 --> 00:15:54,203

I would say that,

271

00:15:55,037 --> 00:15:57,206

you know, my friend Steve Scott,

272

00:15:57,206 --> 00:16:01,961

who I referred to

earlier, divided Mennonite groups,

273

00:16:01,961 --> 00:16:06,048

conservative Mennonite groups into,

I think four categories.

274

00:16:06,048 --> 00:16:10,761

You talked about ultra conservatives,

talked about intermediate conservatives

275

00:16:10,761 --> 00:16:12,554

who talked about moderate conservatives,

276

00:16:12,554 --> 00:16:15,599

and then he talked about fundamentalist

or evangelical conservatives.

277

00:16:16,266 --> 00:16:17,810

And these were a spectrum.

278

00:16:17,810 --> 00:16:20,938

And one of them,

not the only but one of the criteria

279

00:16:21,230 --> 00:16:25,693

that he used in defining these various

and these these are types, okay.

280

00:16:26,652 --> 00:16:27,403

These are types.

281

00:16:27,403 --> 00:16:30,280

They're okay.

They're not formal groups. Okay.

282

00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:33,867

These are types in which formal groups

fit in to one of the types.

283

00:16:34,284 --> 00:16:35,285

But one of the criteria,

284

00:16:35,285 --> 00:16:40,416

or one of the markers that he used

is is how in the sense plane

285

00:16:40,416 --> 00:16:44,294

they were, how, how conservative

they were in their dress.

286

00:16:44,670 --> 00:16:45,796

Okay.

287

00:16:45,796 --> 00:16:49,800

So, depending which group you're part of,

288

00:16:50,259 --> 00:16:55,389

then the the discussion

will be at a different place.

289

00:16:55,723 --> 00:16:56,682

All right.

290

00:16:56,682 --> 00:17:00,644

You know, I, I know of one

very conservative, ultra conservative

291

00:17:00,644 --> 00:17:05,357

group in my area and which the discussion

is about wearing a plain black hat.

292

00:17:05,858 --> 00:17:09,528

That is not a discussion

that most plain groups have anymore.

293

00:17:10,112 --> 00:17:11,363

All right.

294

00:17:11,363 --> 00:17:13,365

But that is a discussion there.

295

00:17:13,365 --> 00:17:16,869

And, and it's and or an effort

296

00:17:16,869 --> 00:17:21,999

to maintain that particular practice

that you don't really see,

297

00:17:22,332 --> 00:17:25,711

in some other groups

as being, being an emphasis.

298

00:17:26,462 --> 00:17:29,882

So I would say that many discussions boil

299

00:17:29,882 --> 00:17:34,678

down to the particulars

of plain dress, and

300

00:17:35,637 --> 00:17:37,431

how much and

301

00:17:37,431 --> 00:17:42,061

questions about, you know, can a practice

be altered?

302

00:17:42,061 --> 00:17:43,854

Can it be abandoned.

303

00:17:43,854 --> 00:17:46,231

And so on.

304

00:17:46,231 --> 00:17:50,027

And the other thing that I would say is

that, you know, most conservative

305

00:17:50,527 --> 00:17:55,282

Mennonites have a pattern of plain dress

that is pretty much,

306

00:17:55,491 --> 00:18:00,245

20th century pattern, though

it is reminiscent of an earlier pattern.

307

00:18:00,245 --> 00:18:02,331

It's it's derived from an earlier pattern.

308

00:18:02,331 --> 00:18:08,295

And so there has even among the most

conservative of the car driving groups,

309

00:18:08,545 --> 00:18:13,926

there has been change that has happened,

but it is reminiscent of earlier patterns.

310

00:18:13,926 --> 00:18:16,637

Like I said,

if you look at the Stauffer Mennonites,

311

00:18:16,637 --> 00:18:20,724

you're going to see something

that is very much reminiscent

312

00:18:21,016 --> 00:18:25,979

of pre-Civil War, how pre-Civil

War Mennonites as a whole, particularly in

313

00:18:26,271 --> 00:18:30,400

in eastern Pennsylvania and,

and in Pennsylvania and so on, dressed.

314

00:18:31,360 --> 00:18:34,196

So if historically,

315

00:18:34,196 --> 00:18:38,033

the the definition of plain was.

316

00:18:38,909 --> 00:18:41,912

Unadorned and practicality,

317

00:18:41,995 --> 00:18:45,290

I think, use the word unadorned,

not the word practicality.

318

00:18:45,290 --> 00:18:48,919

That's I think, an inference made

from what you were saying.

319

00:18:49,461 --> 00:18:52,422

Is that still

320

00:18:52,422 --> 00:18:56,426

significant priority in the conversations

321

00:18:56,552 --> 00:18:59,721

surrounding plainness in plain Mennonite

322

00:19:00,264 --> 00:19:02,808

churches?

323

00:19:02,808 --> 00:19:04,518

Maybe.

324

00:19:04,518 --> 00:19:08,605

Maybe,

depends on what the conversation is.

325

00:19:09,481 --> 00:19:12,651

I do sometimes think.

326

00:19:12,651 --> 00:19:18,073

And conversations I've heard and

even conversations I participated in that.

327

00:19:18,490 --> 00:19:23,328

The conversation, gets taken up

or revolves around

328

00:19:23,537 --> 00:19:29,001

particular applications of plainness,

and so on, and not really

329

00:19:29,001 --> 00:19:32,546

kind of the big issue,

I mean, are sort of the overarching,

330

00:19:32,796 --> 00:19:37,509

overarching,

principle of what plainness is about.

331

00:19:38,051 --> 00:19:40,512

for example,

you know, there are groups that,

332

00:19:40,512 --> 00:19:44,099

congregations

I've been in where, you know,

333

00:19:44,099 --> 00:19:47,352

they're as far as they're dress,

they seem to me to be okay.

334

00:19:47,352 --> 00:19:48,979

You got that one nailed down pretty well.

335

00:19:48,979 --> 00:19:52,024

But then when you go into their houses

and so on,

336

00:19:52,816 --> 00:19:56,278

you see something there

that in my mind is not plain.

337

00:19:56,445 --> 00:19:57,988

Okay. It's not plain.

338

00:19:57,988 --> 00:20:01,533

And, you know, that earlier Quaker

339

00:20:01,575 --> 00:20:05,787

way of thinking about things

and I think also in earlier, Mennonite

340

00:20:05,954 --> 00:20:09,583

and Amish way of thinking about is

that plainness is more than dress.

341

00:20:09,833 --> 00:20:12,836

Plainness impacts

every aspect of your life.

342

00:20:13,170 --> 00:20:16,840

Okay. So your house is your dress and your

houses, it should be kind of the same.

343

00:20:17,841 --> 00:20:18,383

All right.

344

00:20:18,383 --> 00:20:20,636

Your possessions should reflect that.

345

00:20:20,636 --> 00:20:22,179

Okay.

346

00:20:22,179 --> 00:20:26,433

And so we are really talking here

about appearances across the board.

347

00:20:26,975 --> 00:20:30,520

What you have and,

and what you, what you show.

348

00:20:30,938 --> 00:20:31,897

All right.

349

00:20:31,897 --> 00:20:36,068

and I would say that unfortunately,

I think that in too many cases

350

00:20:36,360 --> 00:20:40,822

that plain the discussion around

plainness has only to do with dress.

351

00:20:41,531 --> 00:20:44,534

And I think that's an important

discussion, don't get me wrong there.

352

00:20:44,576 --> 00:20:48,205

But I think also that we

we have particularly among

353

00:20:48,247 --> 00:20:52,542

some conservative Mennonite groups,

we really have lost the

354

00:20:53,085 --> 00:20:55,879

the idea that plainness

is supposed to impact everything.

355

00:20:55,879 --> 00:20:57,005

It's supposed to impact the car

356

00:20:57,005 --> 00:21:01,176

that we drive, supposed to impact

the kind of houses we build, what how we

357

00:21:01,551 --> 00:21:05,973

how we decorate our houses,

how we adorn our houses.

358

00:21:07,224 --> 00:21:10,435

You know, it it seems to me that I,

359

00:21:11,019 --> 00:21:14,189

I go, I've been into place or think, well,

this is,

360

00:21:14,940 --> 00:21:18,485

these people dress plain,

but they don't live plain, Whereas I think

361

00:21:18,485 --> 00:21:21,738

an earlier understanding would have

an earlier understanding addressed that.

362

00:21:21,989 --> 00:21:24,616

And there are still some groups

that do address that.

363

00:21:24,616 --> 00:21:27,619

Okay. They do address that.

364

00:21:27,995 --> 00:21:31,999

They tend to be, on the more conservative

end of things.

365

00:21:32,332 --> 00:21:33,667

Okay.

366

00:21:33,667 --> 00:21:38,130

One of the things that we experience

in the 21st century

367

00:21:38,755 --> 00:21:41,758

that has changed

368

00:21:41,758 --> 00:21:44,761

as compared to earlier centuries,

369

00:21:44,803 --> 00:21:47,222

when some of these

370

00:21:47,222 --> 00:21:51,184

early conversations about plainness

in the Quaker Mennonite world started

371

00:21:51,601 --> 00:21:55,355

is that we have mass production

of clothing

372

00:21:56,106 --> 00:22:00,360

in a way that wasn't entirely congruent

with how it previously was.

373

00:22:00,986 --> 00:22:03,572

So can custom handmade

374

00:22:03,572 --> 00:22:08,660

clothing, which is often

a significant part of the way

375

00:22:09,161 --> 00:22:12,164

conservative Mennonites

define plainness today.

376

00:22:12,581 --> 00:22:14,499

Can that plausibly be regarded

377

00:22:15,917 --> 00:22:18,920

as plain?

378

00:22:19,755 --> 00:22:21,882

You mean people making their own clothes?

379

00:22:21,882 --> 00:22:24,051

Yes. Okay.

380

00:22:24,051 --> 00:22:27,054

Yeah, I think so.

381

00:22:28,221 --> 00:22:31,224

So. Well, let me let me, just go back

and look at this.

382

00:22:31,516 --> 00:22:32,642

All right.

383

00:22:32,642 --> 00:22:34,311

There's this myth, okay?

384

00:22:34,311 --> 00:22:37,314

There's this myth. People love myths.

385

00:22:37,564 --> 00:22:37,981

You know?

386

00:22:37,981 --> 00:22:38,982

They just love them.

387

00:22:38,982 --> 00:22:42,569

And and the thing about Myths is

that they serve a very didactic purpose.

388

00:22:43,111 --> 00:22:44,780

Okay, but there's this myth

389

00:22:44,780 --> 00:22:48,367

that plainness came into

the Mennonite church in the 20th century

390

00:22:48,367 --> 00:22:54,289

through Western revivalists

like, like, John S Kaufman and A.D.

391

00:22:54,331 --> 00:22:56,375

Wanger and ... from Virginia.

392

00:22:56,375 --> 00:23:00,295

But those kinds of people that this is

when we began to see people,

393

00:23:00,587 --> 00:23:04,925

you know,

going to more of a defined plain style

394

00:23:05,092 --> 00:23:08,220

and so on, women putting coverings on

and everything like this and so on.

395

00:23:08,762 --> 00:23:11,181

That's, that's a myth,

396

00:23:12,307 --> 00:23:15,018

because,

397

00:23:15,018 --> 00:23:18,021

it wasn't something new, as my,

398

00:23:18,271 --> 00:23:21,608

my friend James Lowry used to say,

399

00:23:22,526 --> 00:23:26,071

do we think that the old orders

were looking in through the windows

400

00:23:26,071 --> 00:23:29,408

at the revival meetings and picking up

the fact that they should dress plain?

401

00:23:31,743 --> 00:23:32,327

Okay.

402

00:23:32,327 --> 00:23:33,328

Oh, no, they weren't.

403

00:23:33,328 --> 00:23:38,250

They weren't there at those revival

meetings listening to John S Kaufman or.

404

00:23:38,250 --> 00:23:41,670

Or Daniel Kaufman or whoever,

advocating plain dress.

405

00:23:41,670 --> 00:23:42,421

Okay.

406

00:23:42,421 --> 00:23:47,175

There's something, intrinsic there, that

isn't part of the tradition and so on.

407

00:23:47,551 --> 00:23:50,846

Now, what you do have happening

actually in the 19th century,

408

00:23:50,846 --> 00:23:55,142

and it is a result of industrialization

and an industrialization,

409

00:23:55,142 --> 00:23:59,521

first of all, in this country

hit the hit, the cloth making industry.

410

00:23:59,521 --> 00:24:00,313

Okay.

411

00:24:00,313 --> 00:24:04,025

And all of a sudden, cloth

which was produced in a very laborious

412

00:24:04,192 --> 00:24:07,737

process of hand

looms, weaving pieces of cloth.

413

00:24:07,737 --> 00:24:11,241

I mean, you just did not have a lot

of clothes unless you are very wealthy.

414

00:24:11,241 --> 00:24:12,826

Wealthy person.

415

00:24:12,826 --> 00:24:14,995

Okay? You do not have a lot of clothes.

416

00:24:16,079 --> 00:24:17,122

Styles for

417

00:24:17,122 --> 00:24:20,667

ordinary people did not change that way,

even in general society.

418

00:24:21,042 --> 00:24:25,297

Okay, so,

but with the Industrial Revolution

419

00:24:25,297 --> 00:24:27,382

and all of a sudden all this

420

00:24:27,382 --> 00:24:31,261

machine woven cloth

cloth becomes much more readily available.

421

00:24:31,428 --> 00:24:34,681

The other nice thing is, is that

they can actually do some things with it.

422

00:24:34,973 --> 00:24:35,932

They can print it,

423

00:24:35,932 --> 00:24:38,935

they can put nice little flowers on it

and everything like that.

424

00:24:39,227 --> 00:24:42,355

And, and so this becomes much more

425

00:24:42,355 --> 00:24:45,442

available cloth becomes much more cheaper.

426

00:24:45,692 --> 00:24:49,738

And you will see a corresponding,

how shall we say, increase,

427

00:24:51,156 --> 00:24:52,282

fashion. Okay.

428

00:24:52,282 --> 00:24:54,075

Now there was always fashion.

429

00:24:54,075 --> 00:24:54,326

Okay.

430

00:24:54,326 --> 00:24:58,997

But fashion was almost always the purview

of the wealthy, of people

431

00:24:58,997 --> 00:25:02,042

who had lots of money and could afford,

432

00:25:03,001 --> 00:25:05,378

you know, lots of clothes, all right.

433

00:25:05,378 --> 00:25:06,713

Because the clothes had to.

434

00:25:06,713 --> 00:25:08,798

The cloth had to be hand woven.

435

00:25:08,798 --> 00:25:10,258

It had to be cut out by hand.

436

00:25:10,258 --> 00:25:12,427

It had to be sewed

with a needle and thread.

437

00:25:12,427 --> 00:25:15,764

But in the 19th century,

we have all sudden this new technology

438

00:25:16,348 --> 00:25:19,768

in which cloth is woven on machines,

and we have sewing machines.

439

00:25:19,768 --> 00:25:21,478

And so it becomes much more easy.

440

00:25:21,478 --> 00:25:24,481

And we begin to have mass produced,

ready made clothing.

441

00:25:24,689 --> 00:25:25,732

All right.

442

00:25:25,732 --> 00:25:29,402

And so it's at this particular point,

I think probably in the,

443

00:25:29,611 --> 00:25:35,492

let's say the toward the end of the third

of the first, third of the 19th century,

444

00:25:36,034 --> 00:25:39,579

that clothing becomes

much more readily available and that

445

00:25:40,664 --> 00:25:41,331

plain people

446

00:25:41,331 --> 00:25:44,334

have to deal with this issue of clothing.

447

00:25:44,417 --> 00:25:46,253

Okay, of clothing.

448

00:25:46,253 --> 00:25:50,340

Now, most clothing still in

the 19th century is produced at home.

449

00:25:51,299 --> 00:25:51,716

Okay.

450

00:25:51,716 --> 00:25:54,386

Most of it is,

unless you're really well to do.

451

00:25:54,386 --> 00:25:55,762

And you go to a tailor

452

00:25:55,762 --> 00:25:59,724

and you have a tailor or dressmaker,

make your clothing, make your clothing.

453

00:25:59,724 --> 00:26:01,434

But that's that's sort of the exception.

454

00:26:01,434 --> 00:26:04,437

Again, that's for something for the

for the people who are really well-to-do.

455

00:26:05,105 --> 00:26:08,108

And it's at this particular point

that you begin to see,

456

00:26:08,191 --> 00:26:13,154

I think, begin to see kind of a shift

in Mennonite communities,

457

00:26:13,446 --> 00:26:16,533

particularly as clothing

as, as clothing becomes

458

00:26:16,908 --> 00:26:19,786

more clothing

becomes much more easily accessible.

459

00:26:19,786 --> 00:26:23,290

And you have a particularly

among Mennonites

460

00:26:23,290 --> 00:26:26,293

not so much among the Amish,

but among Mennonites.

461

00:26:26,376 --> 00:26:29,379

You have this this distinction between

462

00:26:30,463 --> 00:26:30,922

people

463

00:26:30,922 --> 00:26:34,092

who, young

people who are not part of the church

464

00:26:34,092 --> 00:26:37,137

and how they dress

and how their parents dress.

465

00:26:37,512 --> 00:26:40,515

And then you also have,

I think, a development simply,

466

00:26:40,682 --> 00:26:44,561

and particularly some quarters,

particularly in the western states,

467

00:26:44,561 --> 00:26:48,690

somewhat in Virginia, even, interestingly

enough, some in Franconia area,

468

00:26:48,982 --> 00:26:51,776

a lesser degree in Lancaster,

469

00:26:51,776 --> 00:26:55,572

very lesser degree in my area

in Washington, Franklin counties.

470

00:26:56,031 --> 00:26:59,492

And so you begin to have people who are

471

00:27:00,702 --> 00:27:03,913

their dress is not traditionally plain

472

00:27:03,913 --> 00:27:08,251

or it may have altercations to it

There’s this very interesting story.

473

00:27:08,251 --> 00:27:09,878

In 1890s.

474

00:27:09,878 --> 00:27:11,171

Katie.

475

00:27:11,171 --> 00:27:15,634

Katie Martin,

who later on, married J.D.

476

00:27:15,634 --> 00:27:18,845

Bronk the songwriter and hymnalogist

and so on.

477

00:27:19,471 --> 00:27:22,474

She tells the story about when she was,

478

00:27:22,599 --> 00:27:26,353

when, Bishop Michael Hurst and,

who's the deacon?

479

00:27:26,603 --> 00:27:28,146

I forget who the deacon was.

480

00:27:28,146 --> 00:27:29,439

Came and visited her.

481

00:27:29,439 --> 00:27:31,983

Prior to her baptism.

482

00:27:31,983 --> 00:27:35,487

The style in the 1890s was for women

to have these

483

00:27:35,695 --> 00:27:39,115

kind of mutton chops, sort of shoulders

and so on, their dresses and so on,

484

00:27:39,699 --> 00:27:44,496

and she tells the story that the, the

they said to her, I think one of the

485

00:27:45,246 --> 00:27:48,333

the bishop or deacon just kind of pinched

the thing and said, we'd like to see

486

00:27:48,333 --> 00:27:49,501

a little less of these.

487

00:27:51,127 --> 00:27:54,839

And, and so, now, so when

488

00:27:55,632 --> 00:27:59,719

so you it's interesting

when you look at pictures of plain

489

00:27:59,719 --> 00:28:02,847

dress people in the 19th century,

early 20th century,

490

00:28:03,181 --> 00:28:06,643

how much current fashions

491

00:28:07,644 --> 00:28:10,563

influence plain dress?

492

00:28:10,563 --> 00:28:11,564

All right.

493

00:28:11,564 --> 00:28:13,274

And you see that today.

494

00:28:13,274 --> 00:28:14,526

All right. You see that today?

495

00:28:14,526 --> 00:28:18,446

I mean, they might have a cape,

but you might also see these mutton chops.

496

00:28:18,822 --> 00:28:20,198

Shoulders. Okay.

497

00:28:20,198 --> 00:28:24,452

What's really curious, in

the 1920s is when you see

498

00:28:25,328 --> 00:28:28,206

cape dresses

that look like they're flapper

499

00:28:28,206 --> 00:28:32,293

dresses, they have this long waist

that go down to about the hips and so on.

500

00:28:32,293 --> 00:28:34,963

You may see pictures of them.

It's really odd.

501

00:28:34,963 --> 00:28:36,214

It's really very hot.

502

00:28:36,214 --> 00:28:39,718

But they're technically they have

they have a Cape Cape on.

503

00:28:39,968 --> 00:28:42,929

But it's really,

you know, trying to imitate

504

00:28:42,929 --> 00:28:47,350

a then fashion and style and society

in general,

505

00:28:47,475 --> 00:28:52,355

particularly as communication becomes

more advanced, as styles change and so on.

506

00:28:53,523 --> 00:28:56,526

You know, they, they have impacts

and so on.

507

00:28:56,568 --> 00:29:00,113

And I think

actually that is what is happening

508

00:29:00,739 --> 00:29:03,783

with some of these revivalist who are

509

00:29:04,325 --> 00:29:07,746

they are convinced that it's necessary

for us to be a plain people

510

00:29:08,079 --> 00:29:12,459

and that what's happening

in, in their advocating this

511

00:29:12,459 --> 00:29:15,462

and then in some cases, people

picking up on it

512

00:29:15,545 --> 00:29:19,632

is that it's, it's

bringing back into into prominence

513

00:29:19,632 --> 00:29:23,303

and it's just simply an earlier practice

that was this is just the way it was.

514

00:29:23,636 --> 00:29:24,220

Okay.

515

00:29:24,220 --> 00:29:28,600

But changes had happened and now there's

an attempt to reverse some of the changes.

516

00:29:29,142 --> 00:29:32,061

Most of those were not, in the long run,

successful.

517

00:29:32,061 --> 00:29:33,021

Okay.

518

00:29:33,021 --> 00:29:33,772

I mean that

519

00:29:33,772 --> 00:29:36,941

some of them were but not some

are not in the long run, very successful.

520

00:29:38,151 --> 00:29:41,821

At Anabaptist perspectives, our ambition

521

00:29:42,614 --> 00:29:46,618

or our vision is to encourage

allegiance to Jesus Kingdom.

522

00:29:47,952 --> 00:29:48,369

How does

523

00:29:48,369 --> 00:29:52,123

being plain support such allegiance?

524

00:29:52,665 --> 00:29:56,211

If so, what way of being plain?

525

00:29:57,629 --> 00:30:01,299

Well,

you know, going back to the, to the thing

526

00:30:01,299 --> 00:30:04,677

from the Society of Friends discipline,

it talks about,

527

00:30:05,094 --> 00:30:08,097

the fact that, you know,

528

00:30:09,599 --> 00:30:12,602

there's something when it comes to pride.

529

00:30:13,269 --> 00:30:13,895

Okay.

530

00:30:13,895 --> 00:30:18,274

These are all manifestations of pride

and pride is not a good thing.

531

00:30:19,025 --> 00:30:19,317

Okay.

532

00:30:19,317 --> 00:30:21,903

Now, pride can also be something

that, you know,

533

00:30:21,903 --> 00:30:24,322

it can be manifest

in different kinds of ways.

534

00:30:24,322 --> 00:30:28,243

But one of the things that's interesting

about an Anabaptist perspective,

535

00:30:28,535 --> 00:30:31,704

I hesitate to use the term Anabaptist,

but sometimes you're stuck with it.

536

00:30:31,996 --> 00:30:34,707

You guys ought to get another name. Yes.

537

00:30:34,707 --> 00:30:36,960

I don't, I know,

I wish we all would just jetison

538

00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:39,504

the term Anabaptist

and find some other term.

539

00:30:39,504 --> 00:30:42,924

That's why when people ask me what I am,

I tell them I'm a Mennonite right?

540

00:30:42,924 --> 00:30:45,718

I prefer that

than saying I'm an Anabaptist.

541

00:30:45,718 --> 00:30:47,720

But anyhow, that's just a beef of mine.

542

00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:52,433

But, among Mennonites and Amish.

543

00:30:53,059 --> 00:30:53,434

Okay.

544

00:30:55,687 --> 00:30:57,939

Pride I think if you talk about like

545

00:30:57,939 --> 00:31:01,734

if you talk about pride, in a by,

546

00:31:02,402 --> 00:31:05,446

if somebody is reformed

and they talk a Calvinist, they talk about

547

00:31:05,446 --> 00:31:08,950

pride, they're talking about an inner

condition condition primarily

548

00:31:09,409 --> 00:31:13,413

if if you think about it in a pietistic

kind of way, it's an inner condition.

549

00:31:13,746 --> 00:31:17,375

Now, I don't think anybody would deny

that's an inner condition.

550

00:31:17,542 --> 00:31:18,501

Okay.

551

00:31:18,501 --> 00:31:22,130

But the to me, the genius

552

00:31:23,298 --> 00:31:25,216

of of quote unquote.

553

00:31:25,216 --> 00:31:27,260

I’m gonna use the term Anabaptist okay.

554

00:31:27,260 --> 00:31:30,263

The genius of Anabaptism is that

it does not

555

00:31:30,305 --> 00:31:33,975

separate the inward disposition

from the outward life.

556

00:31:34,392 --> 00:31:40,398

And so if you see pride

being expressed in a person's

557

00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:43,943

the way they live, the way they dress,

what their houses are like,

558

00:31:44,235 --> 00:31:47,655

then one can, I think, pretty

well assume that they are proud

559

00:31:47,655 --> 00:31:50,658

there's something inside of them is proud.

560

00:31:50,950 --> 00:31:54,037

Now one can be proud and hide things

561

00:31:54,037 --> 00:31:57,332

to you know

one can be proud about being plain,

562

00:31:58,833 --> 00:32:01,002

some of which is curious, isn't it?

563

00:32:01,002 --> 00:32:06,925

But but one of the things I would notice

and I got this idea

564

00:32:06,925 --> 00:32:10,553

actually, from Aaron Slabaugh,

he talks about the fact that

565

00:32:11,846 --> 00:32:13,848

when it came to humility

566

00:32:13,848 --> 00:32:18,144

that Mennonites and Amish objectified it.

567

00:32:18,645 --> 00:32:18,937

Okay.

568

00:32:18,937 --> 00:32:23,066

They made it an objective reality, not

just simply a disposition of the heart.

569

00:32:23,691 --> 00:32:24,067

Okay?

570

00:32:24,067 --> 00:32:27,862

And it's a objective reality

that expresses itself in various ways.

571

00:32:28,237 --> 00:32:29,364

Okay.

572

00:32:29,364 --> 00:32:32,325

And so I think that

573

00:32:33,242 --> 00:32:36,913

that that still has a that's

still a valid way of looking at things.

574

00:32:37,580 --> 00:32:38,164

Okay.

575

00:32:38,164 --> 00:32:41,376

Pride is the original sin.

576

00:32:42,585 --> 00:32:43,920

Okay.

577

00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:47,590

It's as as John M Brennaman talks about it

is it his tract

578

00:32:47,590 --> 00:32:50,593

pride and humility.

579

00:32:51,386 --> 00:32:54,222

I think the spiritual roots

580

00:32:54,222 --> 00:32:57,266

of not patterned ourselves after world

581

00:32:57,266 --> 00:33:01,020

as, as, Paul said, you know, be, be

582

00:33:01,020 --> 00:33:05,066

ye not conformed to the world, but be ye

transformed by the renewing of your mind.

583

00:33:05,608 --> 00:33:08,778

Okay? The patterns of the world, okay?

584

00:33:08,778 --> 00:33:12,699

Are in opposition to godliness.

585

00:33:13,408 --> 00:33:15,785

And they express themselves

586

00:33:15,785 --> 00:33:19,872

not only in inward dispositions,

but in objective ways.

587

00:33:20,415 --> 00:33:23,126

And I think plainness is an effort

588

00:33:23,126 --> 00:33:27,296

to deal with that reality.

589

00:33:27,505 --> 00:33:32,552

And the other thing that I think also that

perhaps today we have lost somewhat

590

00:33:33,177 --> 00:33:37,223

is that particularly when it comes to,

I think about how some of our

591

00:33:37,223 --> 00:33:40,226

how houses are built

and how they're decorated and so on.

592

00:33:40,643 --> 00:33:44,397

It is the idea that we are actually

593

00:33:44,397 --> 00:33:48,234

not identifying

with the elite in the world.

594

00:33:48,484 --> 00:33:51,237

We are not patterned ourselves

after the elite, but we are.

595

00:33:51,237 --> 00:33:56,492

We are finding a common, ordinary, simple

though I hate.

596

00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:00,038

I hesitate to use the word simple

because some people run with that

597

00:34:00,997 --> 00:34:02,498

way of life.

598

00:34:02,498 --> 00:34:04,584

Okay, in a sense.

599

00:34:04,584 --> 00:34:06,711

In a sense, it's almost.

600

00:34:06,711 --> 00:34:09,213

impoverishing ourselves.

601

00:34:09,213 --> 00:34:11,424

Okay.

602

00:34:11,424 --> 00:34:13,593

Forgive me if I misunderstand you,

603

00:34:13,593 --> 00:34:17,805

but you seem to be an apologist

for plainness.

604

00:34:18,723 --> 00:34:22,435

Most Christians

are not practitioners of plainness.

605

00:34:22,894 --> 00:34:26,355

So I'm curious how you would make the case

for plainness to believers

606

00:34:26,355 --> 00:34:29,358

who aren't presently plain.

607

00:34:30,443 --> 00:34:31,861

No, that's a good question.

608

00:34:31,861 --> 00:34:33,821

Yeah.

609

00:34:33,821 --> 00:34:37,408

I guess I could say I'm

an apologist for me for plainness.

610

00:34:39,077 --> 00:34:40,536

Well,

611

00:34:40,536 --> 00:34:43,289

you know, the I guess the question

612

00:34:43,289 --> 00:34:46,292

that I would, would address is,

613

00:34:47,418 --> 00:34:49,670

you know, when you look at,

614

00:34:49,670 --> 00:34:53,424

when let's just simply take dress

for example, okay.

615

00:34:53,883 --> 00:34:57,220

When, when I see some

and this is kind of indirect,

616

00:34:57,220 --> 00:35:00,223

what you're dealing with

when I see some young Mennonite guys

617

00:35:01,349 --> 00:35:03,643

where, cut their hair,

where they had these really,

618

00:35:03,643 --> 00:35:06,646

I think what they call tight

and high haircuts,

619

00:35:07,396 --> 00:35:12,235

you know, it's really, really,

it's really shaved kind of on the side.

620

00:35:12,235 --> 00:35:14,153

And it's this top stuff here. So.

621

00:35:14,153 --> 00:35:15,571

But where did that come from?

622

00:35:17,573 --> 00:35:19,826

Where where did that come from?

623

00:35:19,826 --> 00:35:22,829

Well, it comes from the world.

624

00:35:23,037 --> 00:35:26,040

It comes from

it comes from the fashion industry.

625

00:35:26,666 --> 00:35:27,959

So it does.

626

00:35:27,959 --> 00:35:31,671

And it's a look and it

it conveys a message.

627

00:35:32,505 --> 00:35:33,381

All right.

628

00:35:33,381 --> 00:35:36,384

It really makes an appeal to, to

629

00:35:36,634 --> 00:35:39,637

our it's a visual appeal to us.

630

00:35:39,804 --> 00:35:40,096

Okay.

631

00:35:40,096 --> 00:35:42,682

It calls attention to to somebody’s looks.

632

00:35:42,682 --> 00:35:43,516

Now that changes.

633

00:35:43,516 --> 00:35:46,310

And that's the thing about fashions

it changes okay.

634

00:35:46,310 --> 00:35:50,773

And what's really in now or what's really,

attractive and and appealing

635

00:35:50,773 --> 00:35:54,819

to the senses now may change,

but there's often some similarities to it.

636

00:35:55,027 --> 00:35:56,237

Okay.

637

00:35:56,237 --> 00:35:59,574

And so the question I often want to ask

people is

638

00:35:59,574 --> 00:36:02,535

where is where did that come from?

639

00:36:03,911 --> 00:36:09,000

And the people who invented it

or came up with that particular way

640

00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:12,879

of, let's say, cutting your hair

or that particular way of dressing?

641

00:36:13,796 --> 00:36:14,505

Okay.

642

00:36:14,505 --> 00:36:17,216

What was motivating that?

643

00:36:18,467 --> 00:36:21,470

it was not a desire to serve God.

644

00:36:21,554 --> 00:36:24,015

It was not a desire to be modest.

645

00:36:24,015 --> 00:36:28,019

It was not a desire to not call attention

to how to your body.

646

00:36:28,978 --> 00:36:30,062

Okay.

647

00:36:30,062 --> 00:36:34,150

But it was actually comes a desire

to accentuate all that.

648

00:36:35,568 --> 00:36:36,986

All right.

649

00:36:36,986 --> 00:36:39,989

And that's

what drives the whole fashion industry.

650

00:36:40,448 --> 00:36:41,782

Okay.

651

00:36:41,782 --> 00:36:45,328

So my so to me now

652

00:36:45,369 --> 00:36:49,040

you know, as far as the particulars

of how it works itself out,

653

00:36:50,082 --> 00:36:54,420

okay, of how quote unquote plainness

works itself out in a Mennonite

654

00:36:54,420 --> 00:36:57,590

or Amish or German Baptist context.

655

00:36:58,382 --> 00:37:01,385

You know, I think they work really well.

656

00:37:02,178 --> 00:37:04,513

I have no quarrel with them. Okay.

657

00:37:04,513 --> 00:37:08,059

They accomplished the thing that I think

they need to accomplish.

658

00:37:08,601 --> 00:37:09,227

Okay.

659

00:37:09,227 --> 00:37:13,314

But that does not say that

those ways of doing it

660

00:37:14,190 --> 00:37:16,108

are necessarily the only ways of doing it.

661

00:37:18,361 --> 00:37:21,364

There

could be, different ways of doing it

662

00:37:21,781 --> 00:37:23,908

that are equally as valid,

663

00:37:23,908 --> 00:37:26,911

get the job done and so on.

664

00:37:27,787 --> 00:37:30,081

My, my personal opinion is,

665

00:37:30,081 --> 00:37:33,709

is that being a Mennonite,

I don't need to reinvent the wheel.

666

00:37:35,044 --> 00:37:38,047

There's a pattern, there's a style.

667

00:37:38,047 --> 00:37:40,341

There's a way of doing this

that really works.

668

00:37:40,341 --> 00:37:43,010

Well, I think works well.

669

00:37:43,010 --> 00:37:47,306

And it also places me in continuity

with with the church

670

00:37:47,306 --> 00:37:50,685

in the past, which I'm part of as well

as hopefully the church of the future,

671

00:37:50,685 --> 00:37:55,022

which I'm part of in the church of today,

it identifies me as something

672

00:37:55,022 --> 00:38:00,903

I it's really interesting story about,

this, plainly dressed woman.

673

00:38:00,903 --> 00:38:03,030

And it's a true story, because.

674

00:38:03,030 --> 00:38:05,157

Yeah, happened to somebody

I know this plainly dressed woman

675

00:38:05,157 --> 00:38:08,494

at an airport where some evangelical

came up to her and said,

676

00:38:09,537 --> 00:38:10,246

you don't need to

677

00:38:10,246 --> 00:38:13,249

dress that way to be a Christian.

678

00:38:13,457 --> 00:38:16,460

And she said, well,

how did you know I was a Christian?

679

00:38:17,670 --> 00:38:20,423

It was because of her dress.

680

00:38:20,423 --> 00:38:21,632

Okay.

681

00:38:21,632 --> 00:38:24,176

It was because of her dress.

682

00:38:24,176 --> 00:38:28,889

But but the foundational thing

is, you know, when we talk about,

683

00:38:29,432 --> 00:38:33,060

you know, and one of the things

I think we need to understand

684

00:38:33,060 --> 00:38:36,897

is that the particular pattern

of plain dress that we have

685

00:38:38,316 --> 00:38:40,651

has is not static, okay?

686

00:38:40,651 --> 00:38:44,155

It's not static, but it is rooted in

687

00:38:44,363 --> 00:38:47,366

what went before and in many cases,

688

00:38:47,783 --> 00:38:52,621

the pattern that came up was a response

to what was happening

689

00:38:53,247 --> 00:38:56,751

in the larger society and saying, no,

we don't want to do that.

690

00:38:57,209 --> 00:38:59,337

Let's take, for example, the plain coat.

691

00:38:59,337 --> 00:39:00,463

Okay.

692

00:39:00,463 --> 00:39:03,674

Now, I think this is an issue

for many people.

693

00:39:03,674 --> 00:39:07,678

And this is interesting to me,

particularly because it impacts men.

694

00:39:08,137 --> 00:39:09,722

Men, there are

695

00:39:09,722 --> 00:39:12,975

there are men in our plain churches

who resist wearing a plain coat,

696

00:39:13,100 --> 00:39:16,479

and yet they want their wives

to wear a cape, dress and dress plain.

697

00:39:17,313 --> 00:39:20,024

There seems to be to me

a fundamental inequity there.

698

00:39:21,150 --> 00:39:22,318

Okay.

699

00:39:22,318 --> 00:39:25,529

And they could come up with good, rational

reasons why they don't want to do this,

700

00:39:25,529 --> 00:39:27,782

why they don't want to wear a plain coat

okay. And say, well, it cost money.

701

00:39:27,782 --> 00:39:29,992

Well, you know, I hear that.

702

00:39:29,992 --> 00:39:31,911

And then I look at what

their wardrobe is, right?

703

00:39:31,911 --> 00:39:32,536

And I think, well,

704

00:39:32,536 --> 00:39:35,956

I bet you spent more money on

your wardrobe than I ever spent on a coat.

705

00:39:36,832 --> 00:39:37,666

All right.

706

00:39:37,666 --> 00:39:41,462

But but the other thing is,

when you think about a plain coat.

707

00:39:42,380 --> 00:39:42,713

All right.

708

00:39:42,713 --> 00:39:43,339

What is it?

709

00:39:43,339 --> 00:39:46,175

Well, it buttons up to your throat.

710

00:39:46,175 --> 00:39:46,842

Okay.

711

00:39:46,842 --> 00:39:50,221

Now, if anybody was designing a coat

712

00:39:51,555 --> 00:39:54,850

for practical reasons, what would they do?

713

00:39:55,309 --> 00:39:56,602

They would design a coat.

714

00:39:56,602 --> 00:39:58,521

That buttoned up to your throat.

715

00:39:58,521 --> 00:40:01,273

They would not design a coat, which

716

00:40:02,233 --> 00:40:05,611

you turn the collar over and

you have this thing that comes down to V,

717

00:40:05,611 --> 00:40:07,655

and there's these two little

or three buttons down at the bottom,

718

00:40:07,655 --> 00:40:08,364

and you come in

719

00:40:08,364 --> 00:40:11,492

and it's there that nobody would design

a coat for any practical reason.

720

00:40:12,118 --> 00:40:13,536

Why did they do that?

721

00:40:13,536 --> 00:40:17,331

Well, in the 19th century

and the first half of the 19th century,

722

00:40:17,540 --> 00:40:20,543

as fashions, began to develop.

723

00:40:20,584 --> 00:40:22,086

All right, we have the collar,

724

00:40:22,086 --> 00:40:24,505

the standing collar,

and it gets higher and higher.

725

00:40:24,505 --> 00:40:26,841

It goes higher and higher up

still reaches up to the ears.

726

00:40:26,841 --> 00:40:28,634

What can hardly go any farther than that.

727

00:40:28,634 --> 00:40:29,844

And so what did they do?

728

00:40:29,844 --> 00:40:32,847

Well, the next style is to turn it

over the roll it.

729

00:40:33,639 --> 00:40:36,642

Okay, well once they roll it,

then it creates these lapels.

730

00:40:37,309 --> 00:40:37,768

All right.

731

00:40:37,768 --> 00:40:40,896

And then what you have to do

well you have to start wearing long ties.

732

00:40:40,896 --> 00:40:43,107

Now there were bow ties before that.

But bow ties were

733

00:40:43,107 --> 00:40:47,528

actually, were neckerchiefs

to close the collar of a shirt.

734

00:40:48,028 --> 00:40:52,283

Here I'm getting into the particulars

of of dress of rest. But

735

00:40:53,284 --> 00:40:56,287

I think

I mean, that's my personal opinion.

736

00:40:56,620 --> 00:41:00,332

I think a plain coat makes the most sense

of any coat I've ever seen,

737

00:41:01,083 --> 00:41:03,544

because it buttons up to the throat.

738

00:41:03,544 --> 00:41:05,963

The only reason to wear a lapel coat.

739

00:41:05,963 --> 00:41:08,716

The only rationale for that is fashion.

740

00:41:08,716 --> 00:41:10,843

It's not. It's not a sensible coat.

741

00:41:10,843 --> 00:41:12,803

Nobody would design a coat like that

for fashion.

742

00:41:12,803 --> 00:41:14,346

The only for for practicality.

743

00:41:14,346 --> 00:41:16,724

They only decide it for fashion.

744

00:41:16,724 --> 00:41:19,143

Okay,

I've also kind of found it interesting

745

00:41:19,143 --> 00:41:21,353

when I and I have known people like this

746

00:41:21,353 --> 00:41:23,105

who resist the idea

of wearing a plain coat,

747

00:41:23,105 --> 00:41:26,192

and they come up with all these rationales

why they shouldn't wear a plain coat.

748

00:41:26,192 --> 00:41:27,693

It's not necessarily to wear a plain coat.

749

00:41:27,693 --> 00:41:30,237

And if they leave a group

where that's what's expected,

750

00:41:30,237 --> 00:41:32,948

and they go to another group

where it's not expecting, guess what?

751

00:41:32,948 --> 00:41:34,241

They put on a lapel coat.

752

00:41:35,326 --> 00:41:37,703

Now, I do

not want to judge the motives of people.

753

00:41:37,703 --> 00:41:41,165

But I began to wonder, was that really

what your argument was about,

754

00:41:42,249 --> 00:41:44,752

or did you just simply want to blend in

755

00:41:44,752 --> 00:41:47,755

with the pattern of the world?

756

00:41:48,130 --> 00:41:51,342

so now not having said that,

757

00:41:51,383 --> 00:41:55,721

having said that,

there may be indeed people who, you know,

758

00:41:56,263 --> 00:41:59,225

they have no contact, contact

with plain people

759

00:41:59,225 --> 00:42:02,853

or with Mennonites or brethren

or or or Amish or anything like that.

760

00:42:03,270 --> 00:42:06,565

And there they may come up with a pattern

and maybe they'll wear lapel coat,

761

00:42:06,899 --> 00:42:07,983

you know.

762

00:42:07,983 --> 00:42:10,444

You know, I know, I know some groups

in which

763

00:42:10,444 --> 00:42:13,447

they're really insistent that,

764

00:42:13,656 --> 00:42:14,907

that their men wear

765

00:42:14,907 --> 00:42:18,077

when they go to church, they wear a suit

and a tie, a long black tie.

766

00:42:18,202 --> 00:42:19,411

That's their pattern.

767

00:42:19,411 --> 00:42:21,914

And that's in their minds.

That's being nonconformist.

768

00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:25,709

I think that's

a little silly way of being nonconformed.

769

00:42:25,709 --> 00:42:27,169

I mean, it does’nt make sense to me.

770

00:42:27,169 --> 00:42:30,214

And so but I can at least respect the idea

771

00:42:30,464 --> 00:42:33,634

that, that they have an understanding

772

00:42:33,801 --> 00:42:34,718

that we're not going to just simply go

with every pattern of the world,

773

00:42:34,718 --> 00:42:38,514

that we're not going to just simply go

with every pattern of the world,

774

00:42:38,514 --> 00:42:40,808

every new thing that comes down the track,

775

00:42:40,808 --> 00:42:46,438

every new thing that is basically comes

out of a fashion industry

776

00:42:46,689 --> 00:42:49,483

that is wanting to sell things to you

777

00:42:49,483 --> 00:42:52,653

and does so

by appealing to your fleshly senses.

778

00:42:54,029 --> 00:42:54,947

Okay.

779

00:42:54,947 --> 00:42:57,950

And when I see when I see Mennonites

780

00:42:59,076 --> 00:43:02,079

picking up aspects of that,

781

00:43:02,496 --> 00:43:04,665

that troubles me

782

00:43:04,665 --> 00:43:06,792

because they're not asking themselves,

783

00:43:06,792 --> 00:43:09,336

where does this come from?

784

00:43:09,336 --> 00:43:11,005

And what is the message?

785

00:43:11,005 --> 00:43:13,924

It's sending clothes send a message.

786

00:43:13,924 --> 00:43:17,636

Doesn't matter how you dress,

it sends a message.

787

00:43:18,429 --> 00:43:20,514

You have to decide

what is the message you want to send.

788

00:43:22,099 --> 00:43:24,768

Before we end this episode,

789

00:43:24,768 --> 00:43:27,771

is there more that you would like to add?

790

00:43:28,105 --> 00:43:31,108

Well, I guess I would have to say.

791

00:43:31,817 --> 00:43:34,862

I mean, I was baptized into the Mennonite.

792

00:43:35,070 --> 00:43:37,448

I was baptized,

793

00:43:37,448 --> 00:43:40,451

I guess I'll have to say, into

the Mennonite church when I was 17 years old.

794

00:43:40,868 --> 00:43:42,161

All right.

795

00:43:42,161 --> 00:43:44,747

And I'm 64 years old,

796

00:43:44,747 --> 00:43:47,750

approaching my 65th birthday here

next year.

797

00:43:48,834 --> 00:43:51,837

And I would say in the last 20 years.

798

00:43:54,006 --> 00:43:56,800

I have seen across the

799

00:43:56,800 --> 00:43:59,803

the spectrum, across the spectrum.

800

00:44:00,679 --> 00:44:02,765

I have seen

801

00:44:02,765 --> 00:44:05,184

more erosion

802

00:44:05,184 --> 00:44:07,394

among our conservative groups,

803

00:44:07,394 --> 00:44:10,105

groups that define themselves as plain.

804

00:44:10,105 --> 00:44:12,441

I've seen more erosion

805

00:44:12,441 --> 00:44:15,402

of plainness than before.

806

00:44:15,402 --> 00:44:17,780

Now for the conservative

807

00:44:17,780 --> 00:44:20,949

Mennonite groups who came out of the

808

00:44:21,325 --> 00:44:24,536

the groups that were assimilated

in the 1950s and 60s.

809

00:44:24,745 --> 00:44:28,999

Okay, that generation who came out

and I would even say for a while

810

00:44:28,999 --> 00:44:32,002

after that have very good sense

811

00:44:32,002 --> 00:44:35,005

of how things developed

and how they looked at

812

00:44:35,255 --> 00:44:38,258

what what were some of the markers

that some of the things that you

813

00:44:38,467 --> 00:44:41,261

would be alert to it

as the next generations come along?

814

00:44:41,261 --> 00:44:43,847

They do not have

that experiential understanding.

815

00:44:44,973 --> 00:44:46,225

Okay.

816

00:44:46,225 --> 00:44:49,770

And so they when they hear some things,

okay.

817

00:44:49,770 --> 00:44:51,355

When they hear something, well,

that sounds reasonable.

818

00:44:51,355 --> 00:44:54,191

Yeah. We do we have to do it this way.

819

00:44:54,191 --> 00:44:56,694

And so us old fogies. Okay.

820

00:44:56,694 --> 00:44:58,153

And I almost I think I'm like that.

821

00:44:58,153 --> 00:45:02,074

Us old guys, we've heard these

these arguments before

822

00:45:03,242 --> 00:45:04,034

okay.

823

00:45:04,034 --> 00:45:07,037

And we can say you can go that way

if you want to.

824

00:45:07,371 --> 00:45:09,164

But you look at this,

these are the arguments

825

00:45:09,164 --> 00:45:10,749

that people are using back then.

826

00:45:10,749 --> 00:45:13,419

And look where it led them to.

827

00:45:13,419 --> 00:45:15,003

Okay.

828

00:45:15,003 --> 00:45:17,965

And so, I think that

829

00:45:17,965 --> 00:45:22,469

I think we, I think our churches

as far as maintaining nonconformity,

830

00:45:22,678 --> 00:45:27,474

the practices of non-conformity

are at a crisis.

831

00:45:28,058 --> 00:45:31,061

And I believe that across the board,

I talked to,

832

00:45:31,270 --> 00:45:33,272

talked to an older Mennonite

friend of mine recently.

833

00:45:33,272 --> 00:45:35,149

He said that

they're one of the most recent conference,

834

00:45:35,149 --> 00:45:38,152

the most recent conference meetings

that they had.

835

00:45:38,235 --> 00:45:40,779

The whole question of plainness

and nonconformity

836

00:45:40,779 --> 00:45:43,699

was a big issue.

837

00:45:43,699 --> 00:45:45,617

Now it's hitting them at various

different places.

838

00:45:45,617 --> 00:45:46,577

It is some other groups.

839

00:45:47,745 --> 00:45:48,662

the creation and

840

00:45:48,662 --> 00:45:51,665

maintenance of a plain culture

841

00:45:51,790 --> 00:45:55,377

with, with markers that define that

842

00:45:57,129 --> 00:46:00,632

do give some guidance

to how we should let live

843

00:46:00,674 --> 00:46:03,719

it help us

to avoid the wickedness of the world.

844

00:46:06,221 --> 00:46:08,390

So that that would be.

845

00:46:08,390 --> 00:46:11,101

And the other thing

I would have to say is.

846

00:46:11,101 --> 00:46:14,104

Somehow we're going to have to address

the inequity

847

00:46:14,897 --> 00:46:18,233

of what we insist upon for our women

848

00:46:18,567 --> 00:46:22,029

when it comes to their dress

and what we allow our men to do.

849

00:46:23,363 --> 00:46:27,409

When when you walk down the street

with your wife

850

00:46:28,786 --> 00:46:30,078

or with your sisters?

851

00:46:30,078 --> 00:46:31,789

With your mother.

852

00:46:31,789 --> 00:46:33,999

Okay.

853

00:46:33,999 --> 00:46:36,460

As a man,

854

00:46:36,460 --> 00:46:39,463

is it as obvious to everybody looking on

855

00:46:40,172 --> 00:46:43,175

that you are a Christian as it is

856

00:46:43,342 --> 00:46:46,345

that they're your women are a Christian?

857

00:46:47,179 --> 00:46:50,182

I think that

I think we have made our women

858

00:46:50,599 --> 00:46:53,644

bear the burden of plainness

859

00:46:54,603 --> 00:46:57,606

when it comes to dress.

860

00:46:57,815 --> 00:46:59,775

And I think that is

861

00:46:59,775 --> 00:47:05,489

that is not going to work in the long run,

because what will happen

862

00:47:05,489 --> 00:47:09,284

is that eventually

the women's dress will change.

863

00:47:09,284 --> 00:47:12,287

Also.

864

00:47:12,412 --> 00:47:15,415

I believe

that we will end the episode here.

865

00:47:16,208 --> 00:47:17,668

Thank you for listening to this

866

00:47:17,668 --> 00:47:20,671

episode of Anabaptist Perspectives.

867

00:47:20,796 --> 00:47:24,299

This is the second episode

that we have recorded with Edsel Burdge.

868

00:47:24,758 --> 00:47:28,720

His previous episode,

which was about theological concerns

869

00:47:28,720 --> 00:47:33,016

of Swiss Mennonites in America

from 1730 to 1930,

870

00:47:33,642 --> 00:47:37,145

and every other episode and essay

that we have published

871

00:47:37,521 --> 00:47:42,109

can be found

at anabaptistperspectives.org.