Apologies for the typos, this is an AI transcription

[00:00:00] Hazel Showell: Hello everyone. I'm Hazel Showell and I'm here to guide you through the toughest transitions in life, business, and even love. Welcome to Endings.

[00:00:14] Johnie Whittle: I just like business and people. I like trying to understand people and see what drives them.

[00:00:19] Hazel Showell: In today's episode, I'm speaking to Johnny Whittle managing partner at Major Oak, steward of human and financial capital, ex-professional rugby player, and a good friend of mine, Johnny, is the story of a rugby career cut short, starting over from scratch and how an unexpected bereavement gave him the courage to take a leap into unknown. Let's go back to the beginning.

Johnny was born in. Previously a mining town in the north of England, but now famous for Rugby League, Heinz Beans, Batak, Curry based, and Uncle Joe's mumbles. It's a great place. You know, there was always plenty of family around and like many others in Wiggin, they were very close.

[00:01:04] Johnie Whittle: I've got my dad and my mom and I've got two sisters and we were just brought up in a strong family environment, grandparents around, always helping out seeing each other.

Saturday, Sunday,

[00:01:14] Hazel Showell: despite this close. Johnny's father was often absent, spending long periods abroad, working in mining all over the world, and was in Russia. When Johnny was born at school, he was an engaged pupil with a natural affinity for maths and physics and anything logical that he could get his analytical mind stuck into.

And then there was rugby.

[00:01:40] Johnie Whittle: I was always good at rugby. My dad played rugby. Most of my family played rugby. Even my sister, my younger sister. There wasn't too many girls that played rugby at that time. It was something I was good at.

[00:01:51] Hazel Showell: Now, I know Johnny, and he's playing coy here saying he was just good at 13 years old.

He was spotted by working warriors and signed as a professional at just 18. He was offered a rugby scholarship from the University of Oxford, which he turned down after university. He pursued his rugby career in earnest, playing professionally for Wiggin witness wake. And Featherstone for a number of years and after a great run decided it was high time for a break.

[00:02:24] Johnie Whittle: I'd just had enough and felt like I needed a change. So I booked around the world ticket.

[00:02:30] Hazel Showell: Featherstone had had a GERD run and Johnny found himself playing in the cup final at

[00:02:35] Johnie Whittle: Headingly. I broke to score a try and just fell over with no one near me and I knew something was wrong and I ended up snapping, totally rupturing me, Achilles.

I tried to tell myself I'd not done anything carried on. Physio was trying to get me off and I was just, wouldn't have any of it. Uh, I knew what was coming. So then, anyway, I collected the cup, we won, and then I was in hospital and there was no chance me traveling the world with that. It's like, I think it was an eight month recovery.

[00:03:03] Hazel Showell: So not only was Johnny unable to travel the world, his option to return to rugby in the future was taken away from him. It could have been a bitter pill to swallow, but Johnny. He had options. I think it was

[00:03:18] Johnie Whittle: Barley's Capital at the time, used to come up to Manchester Union, try and get us down to the city for quants and all sorts.

So I started to think, though, that's what I'll go into. And then after having a bit of a try at that, it wasn't for me cuz there weren't people, there was computers and, and numbers, but there weren't enough people. I just liked business and people I liked under trying to understand people and see what drives them.

I just fell into financial services. It was just quicker to get in front of people with the financial services and the path being qualified.

[00:03:45] Hazel Showell: And he excelled in his new. But pretty soon Johnny started thinking bigger.

[00:03:51] Johnie Whittle: There was a guy I met when I was at RSM 10 and he was a really successful business, but he was quite a young guy and I was introduced by one of the directors to, you know, he's made a load of money, Johnny, and he needs to put this into his pension.

And I'm like, okay. It was quite an easy sell mon, but I turned up and when he was starting to tell me, This is what I want to put half a million put into a pension over. It was at the time I was like, but you not need it for the business. What's your plan? The business, you're not gonna build the business a bit more.

And and it was that because I needed to understand that the advice I was giving was right for the whole picture. I think I always asked to ask more questions, so it went quickly that I loan my trading financial services. Financial planning, wealth management, investment management. But I've, I've always had that bigger interest in what's right for this person I'm trying to help.

And is it right long term for them.

[00:04:41] Hazel Showell: Alongside this, Johnny had started his family.

[00:04:45] Johnie Whittle: I have two children, another one on the way, and I was very conscious of the fact my dad traveled a lot when I was younger. As I said, my sister was born in Zambia and then my dad brought the family back home and settled everyone in Wiggin and then he went off and travel.

So I didn't see much, he didn't see much of me, of a, of a child, and I think I, I felt that more than what, what I realized back then, and I was very conscious of the fact that I needed to spend time with my children because I knew, you know, I'm, I guess I missed time with my dad in his fifties.

[00:05:15] Hazel Showell: Johnny's dad retired to spend a bit more time around friends and family, but at the age of 65, He was called in for a checkup.

[00:05:28] Johnie Whittle: He found an enlight, he found something he needed operating on, and he went in for the operation, following the operation. He suffered a massive stroke last, and it was a really bad one. We had a, we had a hard time for six months trying to look after him and, um, he actually, yeah, he died.

[00:05:45] Hazel Showell: It's sobering to think Johnny's dad thought he could catch up the time he missed with his kids in later life, but as too often happens, time is shorter than you think after the tragic loss of his father. Johnny remembered a valuable lesson he taught him years earlier.

[00:06:07] Johnie Whittle: You know, you're always waiting for the right time to do something.

I remember my dad telling me about the kids. You know, you, you think he should have a kid. Should I wait until I've got the next house? There's never a right time. Just have it and make it right. And I, and I think once obviously my dad passed away, I think he was just one of them, that I need to have a go at doing things myself or the way I think works better.

[00:06:27] Hazel Showell: Having learned how precious time is. Johnny soon quit his job and set up his very first business.

[00:06:34] Johnie Whittle: He gave me the push. He gave me the push.

[00:06:40] Hazel Showell: Because your dad was such a big figure for you. On reflection, how much of your life do you think has been an act of loyalty to your dad?

[00:06:50] Johnie Whittle: Sometimes it's focused on my dad cuz that's what happened. But I'd say it's just loyalty to family. It really is. If you think back then, my dad wasn't at home at the time.

It was my mom that kept three, you know she brought up three kids along with my grandma and my dad's mom. So the word loyalty's key Hazel, who? It's two. It's two. Just other family members, people that you know. And it's strange you say that cuz one. Um, from, you know, I played at Wiggin Rugby on the badges, ancient and loyal.

So loyalty, as I said, Wiggin is quite a, it's got strong roots that way.

[00:07:24] Hazel Showell: Tell me a bit more about more of your values. You said loyalty is a big one.

[00:07:28] Johnie Whittle: You know, trust is key to me, and to get trust, you need someone who is honest. You know, there's character though. You need to know where they're at. It doesn't matter what type of individual it is.

It's you understanding that individual, seeing what the drivers. And then seeing what the partnership is between you and them. And there's different people in that, you know, and that's why as long as there's trust and honesty, there're in one way, or I can see honesty. Some even some people don't give you the honesty direct, but you, you know where they're coming from.

So it's still fine, if that makes sense.

[00:07:58] Hazel Showell: Yeah, I was intrigued that in some ways that, although I suppose it's very easy for, for people who don't know the detail of the story, to see it as, oh, that's a sporting career ended by injury. But actually it made the decision. So looking back, what do you think the injury had actually ended?

[00:08:17] Johnie Whittle: What did it end um, I guess my energy that was being given to being a sportsman. Okay. I've done my bit. I'm happy with it, with what happened in my career and where I was. Yeah, of course I could have done better, but I think from a, you know, looking back whenever my time. I'm happy with that bit. And it was just pulling, I think it was just saying from a, from a pushing yourself physically to that point to show you, you know, from a challenge in my, in my head of being a professional sportsman or good at whatever the physical side, I kind of said, right.

I've, I've shown I can do that. Probably pushed it a bit too hard of a snapples, but, um, but um, yeah, I think it just ended that, that time in, in, in me trying to develop myself as a, as an athlete maybe. I think it ended.

[00:09:05] Hazel Showell: I know when we spoke, you were talking about the surprising things, though you missed about being an athlete.

[00:09:11] Johnie Whittle: Yeah. The, I mean, everyone says it, but it's just that closeness. You never, I have a friend now who was in the Marines who served, he did some tours in Iraq, and there's very, there's a lot of similarities there. That brotherhood. You know, that time when you're basically all in, you know, there's nothing else.

There's nothing else that will get your attention. You're all going for one. Um, obviously the Marine, it's not life and death on rugby field, but it's very physical, but you've always got someone to lean on and I think the transition over from sport to business, it shocked me. And one of the main things I remember having a chat with someone else that had made the change at the same time is how was saying about honesty and trust going into business.

I'd never come across people. You didn't have that automatic value and connection, but business, it's a totally different world. And to meet people who can sit in front of you and say one thing and then really mean something else, either doing it on purpose or not, it was just a strange thing for me. And not being able to lean, rely on that team closest.

It's the instant feedback I think that's key in sport. I think what sports gives you is it's an acceptance that that's your position, you are good at that. You're terrible at that, Johnny, but you're good at that. I suppose someone not too recently. He said, I found it really strange. I said, you in sport, you're told for so long how bad you are basically to get better and you, and you accept that.

Whereas in business, you told how good you're in, actually you're not that good, you know, you really are bad. And he said, I've just really struggled with that one. So, Yeah, the two things I missed in sport is just that general being, you know, you've been around lads and it is lads, isn't it? It's single sex team, everyone calls it the banter, but it's just that closeness. And even when things are hard people will be there for you. And so I've definitely missed that, but as well, I've just missed that honesty. I'm finding it now. Cause what happens if you go into business and you try and work with every.

And then you start and you know how to work in business, you find people that just match your values and then so again, the trust starts going back and things happen easier and quicker again, I guess.

[00:11:18] Hazel Showell: Every single business, I talk to people that go on about how important feedback is and the ability to have candid and kind conversations and don't assume you can't be both. It is astonishing, isn't it? Yeah. We think just have the conversation, it's gonna cost you more not to. So it is interesting the thing, the unexpected things that you've missed with the ending, but the fact that you'd actually already made that decision, and I'm hearing that in, in a way, setting something up on your own, that you'd sort of already made the decision, but then it takes something big to make that final push to go actually, Did it?

[00:11:57] Johnie Whittle: Yeah, I guess it's that confidence. It's that, I mean, let's be honest. When it's such a, you know, it's a really sad event, wasn't it? And seeing someone who you looked up to and again, back playing rugby was a very strong individual, not just physically, but he had a great, you know, he has got some great friends of reputation.

He was known as a stronger honest man as well, so to see him die, it just gives you that shock. So making a decision of going into business on your own, if it doesn't work, so what I'll go back to what I was doing. You know, it takes away that fear, I guess.

[00:12:26] Hazel Showell: Mm-hmm. Seems like it gets perspective. I'm also noticing that you seem to instinctively reframe things that I think many people would see as that was the end of something. Always, I hear you took used language that's more as a transition, a change. Where do you think that started or where did that come from?

[00:12:44] Johnie Whittle: I think that's, when I think about that, so I fell into physics. I really do. I've been a deep thinker from being young, really young. And, um, I don't mind taking myself away, getting into things as well. It doesn't have to be with a group. And I, you know, I remember reading books on Tai Chi and that was at the same time, brief history of time, Steven Hawkins.

And I was like, probably 11. But it was all, I think, here's the word I'm going to hear is there's a connection here and me going into science as well. The word everyone uses there is energy and energy for me, it does explain everything. You know, I'm happy with that. People have different religions, people have minds.

I'm not saying science is my religion cuz it's not what energy. I just understand the world With that, I got into a phase where my dad died of reading a lot of spiritual books or books about spirituality. I'd already read books on buddism and things like that, trying to understand it, but just general spirituality.

And I understand when I look back, he is one of the most spiritual people. One of the laws, energy can't be destroyed, just changes its forms., it just answers everything. There's no, there's, there is no end really. It's just, it's just a, you know, it's a change of coat, a change of form.

The energy is, um, it, it's eternal. It carries on forever.

[00:13:56] Hazel Showell: It sounds like that helps you to make sense of the world.

[00:13:59] Johnie Whittle: Everything. Uh, you know, as I say, when everyone thinks there is an end or an issue or physically something happens, it, it just, no, it, it does it, it really does answer everything for me. Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

[00:14:09] Hazel Showell: Remember someone describing money as energy wants and saying that that's the important thing. It's always treated as energy, not just like stockpile and leave it, treat it as

[00:14:18] Johnie Whittle: energy, but it's, it has, it's been created by that anywhere. And this is where we, you know, I work, I love the work. I do know because you engage with people.

Uh, bringing human energy, human capital, an idea that one person's thought, giving that vision to however many staff they have, helping them drive that. And it's re, you know, so that energy, that's all we put in. And then it's re, you know, it's just brought back into money. It's just an exchange. It just changes its form.

So a hundred percent it explains everything to me. And the more I've got into corporate finance and selling businesses and things, some of the most. The best corporate finance professionals, all PE guys I've come across, you know, they'll swoop in, they'll meet the people that are driving the business, and they can make a decision within 15 minutes, 30 minutes of being that individual.

Obviously, all the rest of the stuff has done the financial due diligence, all the checks by all the. All the financial institutions and making sure everything, and then the legals and, but the people that really make that decision, and you can tell exactly what they're looking for, looking for the individuals and seeing where the drivers and energy comes from and seeing if it's aligned with what they want as investors.

It's really, it's quite simple really. If you can sit back and look at it from that perspective.

[00:15:32] Hazel Showell: And Beautiful to think of it as a spirituality. Yeah.

[00:15:36] Johnie Whittle: Yeah. It works for me, Hazel. It works.

[00:15:39] Hazel Showell: So it sounds like that's fab philosophy, but if you are looking back to these things that, you know, including some incredibly big things for you that have ended, what do you think you have learned?

[00:15:51] Johnie Whittle: I think there isn't an end, you know, and I think the big one for me, especially when starting Major Oak and discussion things with you and other partners there's only an end if you think it's about you. It's not about you. There's not an end. There's that, and that's where, from a generational perspective, when you're dealing with these really successful individuals who are amazing people and family orientated. The financial capital has been accumulated.

It's got to be redistributed and changed forms back into knowledge and human capital, and then passed on generationally. And whether that's. Yeah. Whether that's through children, their own children, or just from a social aspect. I think that's, that's key. So any ending that I have now, it's just, oh, what's happened up until now is just shown me that yeah there's a flow of something and it's just, you've just gotta, you've just gotta try and do your bit.

[00:16:44] Hazel Showell: It's like the flow of life and love. So what, for you, what does the future look like?

[00:16:50] Johnie Whittle: I've got three children. I'm happy, you know, everyone's loving whatever they're doing with the children or they're all in different sports or music or whatever. I just wanna support them. I wanna work with some great people, which I'm doing.

I'm lucky enough that I've got some team members I work with, but people who work with through businesses. Where it ends up or where this goes, I'm not sure, but I think as long as everyone feels like there's some kind of development or moving forward, So the future? Yeah, the future for me is just to keep doing what I'm doing and see where it takes was really keep just supporting good human beings and being around good human beings.

[00:17:32] Hazel Showell: So you might have noticed that Johnny transitioned from rugby a little more easily than someplace because he'd already decided it was ending and just the same as although his father's death. A horrible experience in his life. In some ways, the decision to move out of his professional career he'd already made, and then his dad left, gave him the kickstart he needed to finally make that push.

Now, one thing Johnny did really well was be able to see those endings as transition as a change to something else. He described it as energy, but being able to change in your mind something negative and describe it in a way that's, And hear it differently and feel it differently. We call reframing and it's really powerful technique and it sits at the heart of cognitive behavioral therapy, C B T.

And it means you can always choose how you feel and it's something you might want to try cuz you can use the principles anytime you like. And for example, I always think if you go to a networking event and you say hello to someone, for example they don't say hello back. Now there's a couple of things you can do.

You can either turn that in on yourself and think, oh my goodness, they've just ignored me. Am I the kind of person people ignore? Or what have I done that I offended them? It could also turn out on them and think, how rude, I don't want to talk to them anymore and, or I'll leave this networking event and it can ruin your day and you spend the whole day torturing yourself over what happened.

But you could also stop and think, how do I see this differently? What else could it. They might have had their headphones in, they might have had their head full of thoughts. They might have been, uh, deaf. They may have just been shy and or it might not have been them. They may genuinely have been ignoring you, but for whatever reason, they're not saying hello to you.

You don't know. So the kids, you pick the one that's more positive because if you walk around thinking I said hello and they just didn't hear me, then you feel good. That's the bit to tap into. So if you think of something that's making you miserable, It might be around something that's ending right now.

It might not be, but write down as many alternative endings as you can and then tune into your body because our bodies don't tend a lie to us. So tune into how it feels and pick the one that feels good. Cuz it's just as much of a story as the one we picked that was making is miserable. And then don't we forget?

Don't forget, just because it's simple doesn't mean it isn't hard because a powerful part of your brain is invested in the first story, and I might fight you a bit because all the beliefs about yourself that it reinforced is the first thing you need to let go of Now. Whatever's happening today, now we're tough.

If it's important to hold an unshakable belief, it's gonna. Whilst doing something to make things better. You'll have heard that in the way that Johnny taught is that ability to, to do something, to act whilst being absolutely convinced that things will be okay in the future. That hopefulness again, we call that the Stockdale paradox.

It was all based on the experiences of Admiral German's doctor, and he was the prisoner in Vietnam. And what he noticed was that it wasn't just the pessimist who. Because, yeah, of course the pessimists, they just thought they were on hell on earth. It was awful. And they didn't make it cause they gave up.

But also the people who didn't make it with the optimists, because they're the people who originally thought, oh, we'll be out by Easter. We'll be out by Christmas. And then, oh, we will be out by next Easter. We'll be out by next Christmas. And broke the heart. They couldn't make it. So optimism alone isn't enough.

So you need. And that's the magic. It's the both unthinking of can I b absolutely look clear-eyed at what is happening today? I'm not gonna delude myself if it's bad. Just look at it squarely, but never lose sight of how things can be in the future and truly believe it's going to work out. And that's the thing you can do is that if you write the truest thing about your current situation on a piece of paper and the mother, how it.

And now mentally transport yourself to a time in the future when the thing you're dealing with is in the distant past. Imagine how that's gonna feel, and imagine how good it's gonna be, and just really think about what you'll be doing and what you're experiencing. Because although our brains might torture us with dark imaginings, it can also allow us to hope.

And that's the wonderful thing because hope is a powerful emotion and you will be.

Thank you to Johnny and I hope you enjoyed today's episode of Endings. If you'd like to share your thoughts, I would love to hear them. You can reach me at Hazel Cs on Twitter or on LinkedIn if you're interested in understanding the endings happening your life a little better. I have the perfect thing for.

It's my five step worksheet, developed specifically for listeners of this podcast, and it's based on years of my research. The first step will only take you about 20 minutes to complete, but it will bring you a lot closer to understanding how to make these difficult decisions around and endings. Click the link in the show notes to download your Thriving through and in's worksheet now. I'm Hazel Carter Showell and I hope you join me again for another episode of Endings.

Endings is produced by Fascinate Productions