PART 2

PART TWO

[00:00:00]

Ross: Hi there, and a very warm welcome to Season six, episode 32 of People Soup. It's Ross Macintosh here,

Ryan: If you're in a team where someone in the team is not performing or not even trying, that affects the whole team. And if the leader doesn't address those things, you lose credibility as a leader. So that is being compassionate to go and address that performance issue with that person. It is kindness to that person to point out to them, you are not performing. You are sticking out in this team. We want you to be part of the team. We want you to perform as well as everyone on the team. How can we help you get there? the first point is, I'm gonna try and help you get there, but if after I've tried to help you and your colleagues have tried to help you, if you're still not there, well then we have got, we've got really

difficult things to talk about.

Ross: p Supers. In this episode, I continue my chat with Dr. Ryan [00:01:00] Kemp, who is a clinical psychologist, director of therapies at a large NHS Trust, author and chair of the Division of Clinical Psychology England in the British Psychological Society.

We focus in on a theme of compassionate leadership, and our conversation begins with Ryan's reflections on his unexpected transition from clinical psychologist to clinical director and what he learned over the process Initially, Ryan had no plans or ambitions to take on a leadership role, but he found himself driven by the organizational challenges he encountered and the encouragement from colleagues.

We talk about the importance of compassionate leadership, particularly in healthcare settings. Ryan highlights the emotional burden that healthcare professionals face and the need for self-compassion as a foundation for leading others. Additionally, Ryan discusses his approach to leadership training, emphasizing vulnerability, authenticity, and the significance of aligning actions with personal values.

we also touch upon the book that Ryan has written and is [00:02:00] currently refining with a working title of 12 Steps to Compassionate Leadership. For those of you who are new to Peoples Soup, welcome. It's great to have you here. We aim to provide you with the ingredients for a better work life from behavioral science and beyond.

For those of you who are regular pea Soupers, thanks for tuning in. Again, we love it that you're part of our community. A quick scoot over to the news desk. There is an A CBS UK and Republic of Ireland conference this year from the 14th to the 16th of November in Manchester.

You can find all the details in the show notes and we'd love to see you there. Our theme is pollination innovation through connection. So let's crack on for now. Get a brew on and have a listen to part two of my chat with Ryan Kemp.

[00:03:00]

Ross: So Ryan, to start the second part of our conversation on compassionate leadership, I wanted to ask you for your reflections on your transition into a clinical director role from being a a consultant clinical psychologist.

Ryan: So I had early in my career, zero ambition to be any type of leader. it's not like I was against it. I just, it was just not on my agenda at all. I really wanted to be a great clinician and I spent. All my spare time reading clinical books, doing courses, I just, I'd come to London.

What a place to learn psychology and psychotherapy. Just every, everywhere you turn, there's brilliant people teaching you stuff. So I was just, my, my mind was just in that. But what happened was, I, uh, as I mentioned, you know, in the first, session we did, I, I worked in this really [00:04:00] brilliant team to begin with, and then I left that team because I felt, uh, I was there about four and a half years, but I felt like I needed to experience another team and go somewhere else.

And, and so I, I, I went to another team and that was not a great team. That was a team really struggling. It wasn't the team's fault, but I think, there'd been all sorts of reasons why this team was really struggling and. it was a shock to me, and, and I realized that part of the reason why this team wasn't getting together was the leadership of that team, of which I was part, I should say,

because I had a senior role there. and so I, I, I started to realize that the impacts of that on the patients and the service users was quite significant. That it wasn't just that the team was in turmoil and people, the relationships were poor or whatever. Actually, it affected the work we did and that mattered to me. I wanted the work we did [00:05:00] to be as good as it could be, and I was seeing that it wasn't compared to this other team I've been in, so that, you know, really got. I got really interested in that. Um, but not in a sense that I thought I would end up being some sort of leader one day. Just I wanted to reorganize things and get things, you know, um, sorted. Anyway, then I was there for about two years and then I, I I, I got tempted to move to another organization and work again, work somewhere that, um, uh, that was much better.

Again, much better run. I think there again, I realized that there were, there were aspects of the, of the care being delivered there. I wasn't all, all together happy about, um, which I started to challenge and ask questions about why we're doing things this way and not this way, et cetera. I'd had, you know, I'd worked in several teams now, so I was starting to get my confidence up.

This is about six years into, six years into my career. and then, [00:06:00] um. One day, you know, someone said to me, almost in passing, they said, you know, Ryan, you've got lots of opinions about how things should be done. Why don't you stop, you know, talking about it and start doing something about it. And it wasn't, it wasn't a criticism. It was, it was more just an encouragement, I think. And it

was like a light bulb moment of maybe they're right. Maybe I can have much more impact on the, on the people that we are serving if I get this team organized and delivering than if I just work with a handful of individuals, which is largely what I was doing. So I thought, right, that's, that's what I'm gonna do. So that shifted my, the, the way I was spending my time away from doing direct clinical delivery towards trying to. Skill up other people and skill up the team as a whole in a way. Now, I'm not saying I, I, I, I made some, you know, fantastic impact and there were lots [00:07:00] of other people there. But about three years later, the person who was my sort of boss retired and um, and she encouraged me to apply for her job, which I thought was a crazy idea because, um, there were much more experienced people who could go for that job. But lots of people encouraged me and I thought, okay, well I'll give it a bash. I I'm probably not gonna get it. So, nothing to lose and I'll learn something from, from doing the application. I applied, I got the job shocked, but I got it. Um, and people said to me, well, you got it, Ryan, because you, you try to change things. You're not just trying to keep things the same and protect your profession.

You're actually challenging your profession to, to change and be different. Which I I didn't realize I was doing that, but I clearly was. And then, um, I was in that role for, um, four or five years that, that was, you know, I was learning about leadership then leading a very large team of psychologists. and [00:08:00] then the trusted reorganization, um, and decided to create clinical directors. Before that, they used to have a different title. and so to cut a long story short, I again, didn't think to apply for these jobs, but people rang me up and said, are you gonna apply? And I was thinking, why are people phoning me up? This is nonsense. These are all, these were all roles that doctors had, not psychologists and nurses and AHPs, et cetera. So I couldn't understand quite what they were on about. but anyway. I ended up applying. I didn't actually get the job, um, but I got positive feedback, which, you know, encouraged me. And then a while later, another clinical director job came up and I applied for that. I didn't get that job as either, so, so I failed. Um, but I guess I was on the radar. And then, um, this, opportunity to work in, um, in this new service that we'd brought into the trust came along. [00:09:00] And, and that's when I was, you know, given that opportunity to go and do that, um, was meant to be temporary and, you know, part-time, but it, because of the challenges, it quickly became full-time and, and, lasted years. So, um, I guess, yeah, so I guess I, I wasn't the most obvious person to end up in leadership, even to myself. and today I'm, I still love. Clinical work and I still, I'm fascinated by it. I guess I'm just using those insights and those learnings to think about more, more these days about employees and care and making sure we care for them, care for the

organization as a whole. And, um, yeah, I dunno. So it's, it, if you'd have told me at the early part of my career that this is what I do, I would've, I would've, laughed just as, just 'cause it would've seemed pretty absurd. Really.

Ross: It's interesting to hear that it was the, the kind of encouragement or nudges from others that that helps you go down this path.

People don't see the potential in themselves

Ryan: Had [00:10:00] a big impact. and I've, I re I've remembered that and, and nowadays when I see people that I, I think have got potential, I am very quick to tell 'em that. Often people just don't see it in themselves. So I, I, I want to encourage people 'cause it's a brave decision to go into leadership, particularly in healthcare.

It's a brave decision. It's not an easy role to have. So you, you need to, you need to be encouraged.

Ross: Hmm. And why do you feel that compassionate leadership has such a part to play in, in, in healthcare leadership, particularly in NHS leadership?

Ryan: So I think healthcare is, um, is I'd, I'd call it, um, sorry, this is like tech, a bit of a geeky term now, so watch out. But I'd call it an infinite game.

And what I mean by that is the needs of the patients and the service users we work with are almost infinite. So if you work with someone, you know, who's, I don't know, might, might, your particular condition [00:11:00] might be diabetes or a fractured leg or whatever.

But once you encounter people, you invariably realize they have so much that they, that they need and that they, um, healthcare challenges are, are quite vast. And also invariably you just learn about the lives of people and it's, it's, it's tough. It's, it's, it's, it's a burden, you know, it's an emotional burden.

And people talk about healthcare workers as, as, you know, doing emotional labor. And that's what it is, I think. But you can take on so much. And if you're good at it, you do, you, you do take on a lot. That's what makes you an excellent clinician. Of course, you should also have boundaries and try to manage your, the lines between work and not work, et cetera, et cetera.

But the truth is that, it's demanding.

Vast endeavour

Ryan: And as you go up in, you know, in, in the sort of hierarchy of, of any organization, but particularly of healthcare, you, [00:12:00] you start to acquire an, an enormous sense of, of how vast this endeavor is we're doing and the, the enormous amount of people that are being helped or not helped. ' cause you start to realize that we could do so much more. We've only got this much resource, so we've

gotta use it. Well, but that comes with a, with, with a, an incredible challenge. So we are making choices about what we do, but we also make choices about what we don't do. And you become quite aware of those. We can't do this stuff, and that's, that's a as, as well as a burden. It's, it's hard work. So, so I think what happens is that healthcare workers and healthcare leaders start to realize the enormity of that. And if, if for whatever reasons, personal or, or, ecological or you know, based on the environment in which they work, you can take that personally. You can [00:13:00] start to see that, that as your own failure. And then those self-critical voices can come in and start to do their work. You know, the emotions start to. Rack up and it's, you know, the potential there for people to, um, to be damaged, overwhelmed, affected by their work is, is just enormous. And, and to be honest, we see it all the time.

It's, it's there. so I think that's the way I see it, is that we start with self-compassion so that we look after ourselves, we make ourselves strong enough, and then we, we go outwards and we have compassion for those pe, those people that we work with, so that they feel they're supported and

capable of doing the work. And then obviously we extend their compassion to all those people that we work directly with or indirectly with, et cetera. So, um, yeah, so that's how I see it.

Hope that makes sense.

Ross: it does. It does. Ryan, thank you. And [00:14:00] just thinking about. The, the evolution of the compassionate leadership cause is, is that a problem? You're addressing this, this sort of, perhaps this overwhelm and this tendency to become self-critical. Is that, is that the major problem we're addressing in, in compassionate leadership in healthcare?

Ryan: I think it's that. I want to add a second thing.

I think this happens in a lot of industries and a lot of professions, so it's not unique to healthcare what I'm about to say, but we are generally trained to be clinicians, and at some point you get promoted to a point where you become a leader, but no one's ever trained you to be a leader. So suddenly you're having to do something that no one's prepared you for. And, and sometimes that's not the end of the world because you've had good role models and we talked about role modeling, you know, last

time, but, you know, role modeling can only go so far. But, and, but as I described in my career, you know, there was one team that I, there was great [00:15:00] role models and there was another team that I had less good role models.

If you're not trained and prepared to be a leader

Ryan: And so that's a, you know, that's a problem if you're not properly trained and prepared to be a leader. You'll just do what you've seen done before, which might be good. It might not be, or might just be average, probably mostly average. So I think that's one of the things we're trying to overcome. It's not just that emotional burden stuff, but it's also just giving skills, to people to be able to think about being a leader. and you know, so obviously some of that is basic stuff, which I've already mentioned, you know, previously, which is like finance skills, HR skills, performance measuring and all that. But some of it's, um, I think quite psychological, which I've often is the things that surprise people on our course.

So we do a big section now on. How to run a team, how to think about a team,

not just to think about the individuals in the team. You should do that as well. You, you should, you should think about all the individuals in your team. 'cause they're all different and there are different challenges, different [00:16:00] points in their careers, et cetera. But the team as a whole exists as well. How do you think about the team as a whole? How do you, perhaps apply some, some, skills and some knowledge in that sort of thing? So, you know, for example, I know it's a bit outdated, but you know, we just teach 'em about forming, storming, norming, performing that, you know, that old, uh,

Tuckman framework. and for a lot of managers that, or new managers, that is mind blowing. They're like, I never knew that before.

Ryan: So this, this connects to someone we've done quite a lot of work on in the trust and, and on the course, which is psychological safety. unfortunately, some people misunderstand psychological safety.

They think it's about individuals being safe, but actually it's a, it's a group, team level phenomena and you can create it and you should, as a leader, be trying to create it at that level. I've gone, I've gone a bit sideways, Ross, sorry. But your original thing was. why teach leadership?

Well, I think those two main reasons. One to care for leaders and to give them skills to be

able to [00:17:00] cope with the stresses and strains, but secondly, to give them actual leadership skills and management skills so that they can transition from clinician to manager to leader.

Ross: Hmm. I think I see this in every leadership role. I think it's probably, I think it's might be universal. I. Sometimes people are put in leadership roles and just assume that by that change in title, they know what the heck

they're doing. Or they'll magically acquire these skills when the tendency can be, they'll revert to what they did successfully in their previous role because isn't that the reward?

They got the promotion. so I, I applaud what you're doing and like you say, people are having their minds blown because they are learning about stuff and it's being made practical and relatable for them to apply where they are right now. Is there any research or literature or books that have informed your, your thinking on compassionate leadership?

Ryan: Well, I think, I mean, quite a few. It's,

it's quite a challenge because, I mean, [00:18:00] if I'm honest, you know, we go back to, uh, when we were early thinking about leadership training. I, I guess at that point I. I hadn't really sort of consulted the, um, you know, the world of writings on, on leadership in a, systematic way. But I would say, you know, if I'm gonna have to name a few, I think, um, you know, Amy Edmondson's work on, on psychological safety has been, you know, really good. I've looked a lot at, um, coaching and team coaching, trying

to see what's, um, you know, relevant there and, and, and alive in that space. And I got really interested in, in systems theory about how systems work. I, I dunno that I can name a book on that. Um. yeah, probably not, but, and because I've got a sort of psychodynamic background, I've, I've, I've,

looked at quite a lot of the psychodynamic literature on leadership, so some of that, you know, developed in London by people [00:19:00] at the Tavistock, for example.

But, But, there are people all over the world.

Ross: I remember in one of the early cohorts for Compassionate Leadership at the Trust, we gave them each a copy of Brene Brown. Was that. Dare to Lead. I think it was.

Ryan: Uh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Brene Brown. How could I have forgotten that? Yeah, I mean, beyond just that book, dare to Lead, I mean, I've probably got four or five of her books. and her podcast series is also extremely good.

Brene Brown gave permission

Ryan: And it was, I think in many ways she gave permission to many of us to be psychological, to be compassionate, and to give us the, the, vocabulary to able to express, that, way of working.

and to show that, not just an acceptable way to be a leader, but actually this works. There, There, there,

there's evidence for that. And there was a group, in the states, I think at Northwestern University that uh, done research on compassionate leadership. So that was, that was quite instructive. I dunno that there was

a [00:20:00] exactly. A, a book on that.

And then also just to link back to, to act, um, you know, the pro-social book as well, um, was very useful and, um, you know, packed with e evidence. And I would also say, um, Michael West has also been a particular, inspiration as well. I mean, he's very active in, NHS circles, but a couple of years ago he put out a book on compassionate leadership, which is jam packed with evidence around the various components of compassionate leadership.

So if you ever need to, um, if I ever need to, justify why I'm doing something, I can go and find the evidence

there. I don't think it's a very practical book, but it's absolutely, you know, proves the case for why compassionate leadership

is needed and works.

Ross: And maybe now's the time to reveal to the listener that you're also well written writing your, your own book on, Compassionate leadership. Can you tell us any more about that?

Ryan: Well the work, the working title is um, [00:21:00] 12 Steps to Compassionate Leadership and it's got 12 chapters, basically with a focus on, different things. yeah, to be honest, I'm slightly nervous talking about it 'cause it's take, it's taken me so long to get it out. I mean, it, it, I have written it, it's finished, but,

but just getting it over the line is terribly hard work, I have to say.

And I've come to really appreciate people who manage to write books because actually writing them is one thing. Finishing them is a whole nother thing. So, yeah. So I'm, I'm hopeful that it'll be out, maybe late 2025. depending on, on me. Mainly just, you know, doing the work to actually polish up each chapter and get it out there.

But yeah, it's gonna have most of those components we've talked about today. You know, thinking about self-compassion, thinking about compassion for others, psychological safety, focus on performance. I mean, one of the things I, I, I say to people who, who ask

People can tend to think that compassionate leadership is about being nice and kind

Ryan: me about it is, I think sometimes people think compassionate leadership is just about being [00:22:00] nice to people, being kind.

And it is those things. But if that's all it is, then that's not really leadership. Leadership is there to achieve something, to allow something to happen, and therefore you have to focus in on what that thing is and aim to achieve it. If you work in a team that's really doing a great job, gets great, either, you know, satisfaction from customers or from from service users or patients. Then you feel good about yourself, it drives you to do even better work. If you're in a team where you're getting a lot of negative feedback, that is difficult. That is really difficult, and I don't think it helps to improve the work. Although as a leader, you've got to focusing on, in on

that. So for me, being a compassionate leader is not to forget about the fact that the work is there to do something and you can't forget about it.

You can't just be kind

to people. It's, that's not a, that's not [00:23:00] an acceptable, enough focus if you forget about the outcomes and the, the focusing on results, because that's why the team exists there.

Ross: And I think that could almost be one of the barriers to introducing compassionate leadership is people say, oh, well, it's just being, just being kind to people and kind of letting them off.

Ryan: yeah, I think that is what people think. I mean, that's, I'll be honest with you, very senior leaders in our organization have said that to me. This is just, you know, soft, fluffy stuff.

Ross: yeah.

Ryan: And yeah, there is a bit of that. I'm not gonna deny it, but if that's all it is, it'll be a failure. We have to achieve the things we are there to achieve.

And for me, you know, going back to those experiences in teams, I was having distressed people in front of me and I wanted to relieve their distress and I wanted to, I. Relieved the distress they were, you know, causing to their families and their communities. [00:24:00] And, you know, to take addiction as an example, you know, addiction doesn't just affect that person. It has a radiating effect, into families, into communities, into the, criminal justice system, for example. So yes, I want to help that person, but I really want to help them and I wanna know what's the best thing to do for them, both at a sort of individual level, but also as a team. How is the very best we can focus ourselves to have the biggest impact?

And if we do that, we're gonna get good feedback, that's gonna make us feel good, and then we'll go again and we'll get better and better. So I do say to people, actually, compassionate leadership is tough. It's actually tough to do it because you have to stay focused on the outcomes. And you have to also then be, I don't know.

You, you, it can be tough to be compassionate as well. It can be, it can be hard sometimes to be compassionate to yourself. You can, it's

much easier to neglect yourself and it, you have [00:25:00] to be, work really hard to be compassionate to those people you're working with. And sometimes, you know, they, you get into difficult relationships, challenging relationships with your colleagues. It's not always just plain sailing.

it it can,

A team where someone is not performing

Ryan: there are times when you're gonna have difficult conversations and learning those skills is, is necessary as well. If you're in a team where someone in the team is not performing or not even trying, that affects the whole team. And if the leader doesn't address those things, you lose credibility as a leader. So that is being compassionate to go and address that performance issue with that person. It is kindness to that person to point out to them, you are not performing. You are sticking out in this team. We want you to be part of the team. We want you to perform as well as everyone on the team. How can we help you get there? the first point is, I'm gonna try and help you get there, but if after I've [00:26:00] tried to help you and your colleagues have tried to help you, if you're still not there, well then we have got, we've got really

difficult things to talk about. But I think as a leader in a situation like that, if you're seen to tackle those things, then you gain credibility and people realize that you care about them by, by focusing in on,

on those issues.

Ross: I love the way you've expressed that, Ryan. 'cause tackling those, let's take that example. The, the, the person who's being disruptive or not performing is a compassionate act. And the temptation can be for leaders, that's too difficult to address. And if you're doing that, could be viewed as a reward.

If you don't tackle it and think about the whole team, then you're rewarding this type of behavior and that can cause further damage to a team. So, absolutely agree. Compassion is

Ryan: Yeah, it's, it's hard. Yeah, it's hard work. It's, it's a lot of work. look, I think, in healthcare, most leaders are [00:27:00] naturally compassionate. That's why they got in the game,

and I think they, I. often are a little bit nervous to, to get into that territory of having those difficult conversations and they can be avoidant. And if we have systems that are not compassionate, so non-compassionate systems, you as an individual leader, say in a team, might not feel supported by your manager or by the, or by the organization as a whole, then you're gonna be quite nervous to go into that space of, you know, having that tricky conversation, uncomfortable conversation. So part of what empowers a, a team manager or team leader or whatever, is to know that their support structures are there to help them. So it's not just sitting in an individual manager. The ecosystem of the organization helps that person to be able to do those things.

So compassionate leadership is not just. A thing that a person [00:28:00] has, but that the organization as a whole embodies and enacts, and that's not easy. That's,

you know, let's face it, that's not easy.

Ross: And how, how are people responding to the compassionate leadership training? Have you got any sort of examples of sort of the, the light bulb moments or the insights people have gained?

Ryan: Well, you're probably asking the wrong person. I mean, you should be asking those. Um, I mean, we've done, we've done, we do, we, we do quite a lot of feedback, so, you know, um, so we ask all the participants to feedback. As I

said, after every session at the end of the program, we've also, um, got a partnership with Brunell University, where they're doing a formal evaluation of every program we do and keeping a sort of, longitudinal, set of data. 'cause we're running our fourth program at the moment. We'll start our fifth program, in late 2025. So, you know, we're in, we're in the hundreds of people now being through this program. But one of the things that we do

is we try to get the [00:29:00] leaders of the organization to be part of the program as much as possible.

So obviously they, they're grateful that I might spend some time with them, but they, they feel really affected when the chief exec turns up and says, I'm, I'm supporting this program. I'm here to support you. You know, please get the most out of it. Please prioritize this program. That means a lot to them.

And of course, we have the, the chief operating officer. The chief people

officer. You know, we, we try to get as many of the senior leaders in as well. And we also run a kind of, um, we run a learning set part. So everyone's divided into small learning sets and very senior directors, run

those learning sets.

So they're getting, they're getting more. coaching and support from those, programs. But I think one of the, one of the things that always gets a rustle in the audience on, on the launch day is, I'll say something like, you might think you're here today to do this leadership program because you're in trouble because somebody thinks that you're [00:30:00] not a good enough leader, but that's not true. You're here today because you've been selected. We believe in you. We are here to invest in you. You are the future. You're not in trouble. And there's a murmur every time because I think people invariably worry that they've been sent on a course because they're failing. And we are very clear when the, the group of us who run the program very clear. this is not about trying to fix basket case leaders. if we need to do that work, we'll do it. But in

a program, we want to develop the best people. We want this to be, about, a reward, about, an encouragement about setting a trajectory for people's careers. One of the other things I'll just, uh, mention as well is my speech at the beginning. We all do a little introduction, just like you did, you did with me, um, in the last session. And I specifically spend my most of my session talking about my failures, [00:31:00] mostly about all the jobs I applied for that I didn't get, which is the vast majority of the time.

OK to fail

Ryan: And a lot of people come up to me and say, that's not what I was expecting. I thought you'd tell me about how all the brilliant things you've done in your career and. I don't talk about that because there's a misapprehension that people who've got into senior jobs are just somehow destined for it, or plucked up by, you know, I don't know, some powerful people or something. It's just not true. I come from quite humble background and I've failed a lot, and it's okay to fail. It's okay not to be perfect. And in fact, your imperfections and your struggles will make you better at being a leader and a clinician down the line. So don't worry about that. Embrace that, use those stumblings to be the, you know, the pebbles that are in your shoes that you, you then take out by learning something and being better.

Add audio to intro new recording

Ross: Now, peace Soopers. This [00:32:00] is the point where we had a technical hitch, which meant that we had to regroup to rerecord this final segment. You'll notice a change in the sound quality, but as ever, Ryan's words are packed with wisdom.

But the truth is that the journeys of most leaders have been roundabout.

They've deviated, they've gone in different directions off. Mostly they've never had an intention to get into those roles in the first place. So we wanna express that through these stories, but I think it, it highlights to people that, you know, that leaders are, leaders are human beings.

They have strengths, but they also. Can get things wrong and that it isn't, uh, you know, so some sort of ordained, passage through life that gets you into these positions and that, that can be sideways moves, sometimes even backwards moves before people, people find their place.

and for me, you know, I, I, I was reluctant. Person to go into leadership. It wasn't something I, I had a strong desire for. [00:33:00] and yeah, there were times when it was difficult. You know, I, I would, I would be encouraged to apply for a job. I remember one particular one, this is a, this is a slightly strange one, but there was a university, a really top university here in London, and one of the professors rang me up and said, we've got this position going.

I really think you're the person. would you consider applying? And I was like, well, that's, I'm not really an academic, you know, she's like, oh, no, we really want you. Please apply. So I applied. They didn't even shortlist me, you know, it's a, it's a crushing blow to your ego at that point. Um, mm-hmm.

and certainly, you know, in our organization, I think that's happened to me a couple of times. People encouraged me to go for it, even the person who's appointing, and then didn't give me the job. I think, and I think that's okay because I think the higher up, the sort of, pyramid you climb, the more brilliant everyone is around you.

And so you might be very good. You might, Have a lot of potential, but, uh, so did everyone else. so again, it's difficult. but we wanna convey to the people that are learning it's okay to talk [00:34:00] about your fragility. It's okay to have those conversations. It actually makes you more human. It makes you come across as authentic, because it's very hard to, to tell those stories.

then, and then, I dunno, brush them under the carpet or something because I think they reveal, they're reveal something very human about you. Thank you. And I applaud you and your colleagues for role modeling that vulnerability at it's a lovely way of framing that compassionate leadership program and to realize that, hey, these folks haven't got it all sorted.

They didn't just go up in this linear, linear fashion. a a squiggly career path is, is more than norm than we might expect. And Ryan, what, what keeps you going in those moments of doubt?

Wow. Well, um, that's a good question. I, I think, I mean, ultimately I think it comes back to, being aligned to your values. To knowing what really matters to you. And if you are doing things that are in line [00:35:00] with those values, then I think it's not always very easy to continue, but, it's not that difficult and I think I've always tried to make.

Moves in my career that, that are aligned to that. So wherever I am, I'm actually really happy usually. And I'm not it's not like I'm desperate to move on or, make changes. So if things don't work out, that's fine. I'm, I'm happy here, just getting on, cracking on with what I'm doing right here, right now.

I think when you're in a job and, you struggle with, things in the role. Again, I think it's about am I acting out of my values? Have, have I got the, the purpose and the mission of this team, whichever team it is clearly, you know, guiding me. If, if I'm doing those things and I'm clear about that, then yeah, I think, I think, things being difficult is the job of leadership. it's not the job of leadership for it to be easy. And [00:36:00] why would I want, why would I even want to do that? I, I don't know. But, sometimes I think people think that the difficulty is sort of conceptual or cognitive or, you know, how, how to navigate.

The AI world. I mean, that's the latest thing, isn't it? But I, I don't think it's that, I think most people are clever enough to do that stuff. I think it's the faced with, Sometimes being faced with unethical behavior by your colleagues being faced with, having to make very difficult financial decisions that are gonna affect people.

You know, people might lose their jobs or have to change jobs or something. I think it's, it's sometimes letting down the people that you're there to serve. You know, like for me, in, in healthcare, you know, not delivering good enough care for, for patients. I mean, that is one of the most. Horrible things to have to get your head around.

But, and it does happen because, because clinicians are not perfect and they make mistakes. And, with all good intentions, sometimes services are set up in a way that [00:37:00] just isn't quite right. And we have to, we have to address those things when we realize it. We need to stay awake. conscious of it, looking for those things.

But when it happens, it's, it's really hard to, to deal with. It's emotional. And I, you know, I, I have some dark emotional times sometimes I, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not trying to avoid those things, but at the same time. I just have to take, take a little time, let let the emotion settle, and then just check in with myself, you know, around, is this aligned with my values?

Am I doing the things I'm, I'm doing here to deliver on this purpose? And if, if that's right, then I just, you have to take a deep breath and, you know, go for a walk or, listen to some music or do the things that, uh, that support me. Mm-hmm. Thank you so much. I really get that strong.

Align with your values, the way their values can be your guide, even in the most difficult of times, and that's sitting with discomfort as well. Sometimes I think things like, Hmm, how is AI going to impact on [00:38:00] our organization Is a distraction from sitting with that discomfort. Sometimes I think it's more palatable to, to think about AI and the impact of that than actually thinking, gosh, we've got this.

Budget decision to make, or we've got this service evaluation to reflect on. Mm-hmm. And I feel like that was a cracking takeaway in itself, but I wondered if you had anything else to leave the p supers with maybe in terms of leadership and compassion in a healthcare setting. Any, takeaway you'd like to leave the listener with?

Well, I, I've been told that, People remember the most about what I say is the simple thing of you can't be compassionate to others if you don't start with compassion to yourself. And, in fact, somebody once wrote me an email who's, who did you quote Ryan? And to say me? so I'm sure someone else said it before me.

Yeah. But that it, I do think that's true because I think particularly in healthcare, people are [00:39:00] coming in because, they are naturally compassionate. They're usually really trying to change the world and, care for others. But they can be quite self-sacrificing in that. and. You know, it's talking to a lot of young leaders.

They feel like it's their job to protect their team, but that protection, can be at their own cost. And mm-hmm. If that goes on too long and, and there's too deep, then they suffer, you know, compassion, fatigue, moral injury, burnout, et cetera, and. And then they often drag on for a long time after that, just trying to, you know, stagger on almost.

so I think taking the time to really think about what. You as a leader need. And it does. It's not, I'm talking about big stuff. I'm talking, usually it's little stuff. Just, you know, making sure you, you work reasonable hours that you, you get the physical exercise that you, you do the, the things that nourish and nurture you, that you maintain the relationships in your life.

Those things are really important because [00:40:00] they, um, they allow you to. To work? Well, I mean, during the pandemic I started going for walks and I realized that, if I took a, a 30 minute walk in the middle of the day, I actually worked so much better in the afternoon. Mm-hmm. Now, I could have just worked through that 30 minutes to do more emails or whatever, but actually that led to a whole three or four hours of worse.

Performance after that. So that 30 minutes looks after me, but it also means I do better work after that. So yeah. So that'll be my takeaway. Beautiful. Thank you so much Ryan, and thanks for joining me on People Soup. It's really great to hear your reflections and I have a feeling you'll be back on in the not too distant future either talking about your book or others of your specialism.

So, so thank you very much for your time. Thank you, Rossman. Delightful. Thank you. That's it folks. Part two of my chat with Ryan In the bag, you'll find the show notes for this episode at People [00:41:00] Soup Captivate fm or wherever you get your podcasts. If you like this episode, we'd love it if you told us why. You can email that to people soup dot pod@gmail.com. And on the socials, I'm still posting on Instagram at People Soup, and I'm on LinkedIn too, as well as a new account on Blue Sky.

Ross: Just search for my name. Now more than ever, you can help me reach more people with the special people, soup ingredients, stuff that could be really useful for them. So please do share, subscribe, rate, and review. Thanks to Andy Glenn for his spoon magic and Alex Engelberg for his vocals.

But most of all, dear listener, thanks to you, look after yourselves, peace supers and bye for now.

you so much again, Ryan. I'll keep you posted and um, yep. Yeah, we'll be in touch. Have a good summer in the meantime. Thanks very much, Ross. You too. Okay, cheer Ono. Ciao. Bye bye-Bye.