Welcome to Taxbytes for Expats, the top tax tips you

want to know as an expat. The podcast is here to help answer

the common queries and concerns expats have when moving to or

from Ireland. Complex taxes explained simply.

We'll focus on the Irish and international tax issues to be aware

of to ensure you save time, money and stress.

Hi everyone. Podcast producer Matt here stepping in for Steph who is

still busy. As we get closer to the new year, this episode

is a part one with John Healy of Healy's Insurances.

Healys is known in the expat community as the place to get insurance,

usually for cars. Mary Doyle is the name most of you would

know, but John has been working in insurance for decades.

In this part one, we hear a bit about John's background,

what the insurance landscape is like in Ireland and the three main

you need to get your car insurance when you land as an

expat. Make sure you're subscribed so that you don't miss part

two and check the show notes for his details.

Enjoy.

Welcome to this episode of Taxbytes for Expats. Today we're going

to talk about all things related to insurance and getting insurance when

you are moving to Ireland. We're joined by John Healy,

who is an Irish insurance professional with over 25 years experience

experience and any of you who might hang out in some of the more popular

expat online forums are likely familiar with Healy Insurance,

who are based in Kerry and notorious for their ability to help

expats with the various insurance issues they can encounter. John is

the managing director there and he joins us today to chat about all the

issues our listeners need to be aware of when navigating the labyrinth that is

the Irish insurance industry. The plan is to focus mainly

on car and home insurance and with no further ado,

John, it is pleasure to have you with us. Thank you so much for joining

us. Hi Stephanie, how are you? Thanks for having me on. Yeah, thank

you. So I think we've got lots to talk about, but before we kick off,

I'm sure anyone listening would appreciate a run

through as to your background, how you got into insurance and a

little bit about the services that you and your very well known

team offer. Yeah, sure. So as you said, I'm

25 years in the industry this year. That came as a surprise to myself

when I realized that you're earlier on in the year. To be honest, time does

fly. Healy insurance. I'm a second generation insurance

broker. My father started the business in 1981. I came

in in 2002. Back then we had a team of

two, plus my father and myself. And today we have

12 people around the place answering phones and answering emails

and providing service. In terms of what we offer, we're a general insurance

broker. So it's motor insurance that would include car and van

and commercial vehicles. We do home insurance, all kinds of

home insurance and commercial insurance, which would include liability and

pubs, restaurants, hotels, things like that. So it's a

general broker across motor would be one of our big ones, obviously.

And what, I don't know, a huge amount, I must

admit, about the insurance industry in Ireland. I'd imagine some of our

listeners, if not all, would probably know very little about it, particularly if they've never

lived in Ireland before. How would you kind of give a run through of how

the industry works here to anyone who knows very little? Yeah, fair

enough. So to break it down simply, you need

the minimum legal requirement in Ireland is third party motor insurance. So

you need to be insured to be on the road. These days third party is

kind of a thing of the past really. That means that if you crash into

somebody else and it's your fault, the damage to the other vehicle or

person is covered by the insurance policy. So these days

mostly it's comprehensive cover which would cover your own vehicle

as well as the person you hit. And another option would be third party

fire and theft. Comprehensive cover tends to be the one

that is the market norm. So one would need

to have an insurance policy to be on the road and to

do if you're, if you don't have it, you're not insured, but you can also

be prosecuted by the guardian, you know. Okay. Yeah. So it's pretty

important to have your ducks in a row. Very. Yeah. And just

to point out on that stuff actually that if you don't have an insurance policy

and you are prosecuted, you are then cutting off

the market for when you get back on the road because you're considered

non standard. So not alone are you getting penalty points

and a day in court, you're also getting high

insurance for a number of years thereafter. Okay. System penalize people who don't

comply. Which makes sense, I suppose, when you have to assume that if

someone does crash into you that you know you've got cover. Yes. That's

interesting. And I'm sure it doesn't necessarily work like that everywhere.

Yes, correct. In certain parts of the world it comes with the car.

In some other jurisdictions it comes with the car.

The motor tax, it might be Included in that. So it's

a different model in Ireland. It's private sector, but you

need to have insurance to be on a public roadway. That's the way it is

with the last number of years. And in terms of. Because I would recall

even there has been kind of consolidation in the industry or, you know,

different entrant entries and exits in terms of players.

And what. What are we seeing in terms of kind of competitiveness in

the industry, you know. Yes, in recent times. Recent times.

So I go back a little bit further, if you don't mind, just to give

a bit of background to it. So about 10 years ago, it doesn't feel like

10, but there you go. We had a number of insurance company

failures in Ireland. So a couple of companies went to the wall and they were

coming at it with an average price that was probably too low. There were a

couple of disruptors, he would call them nowadays, but they weren't. That phraseology

wasn't around back then, I suppose motor insurance, or insurance as

a whole, it doesn't follow other commercial

realities. So the more you sell isn't necessarily the best

result. It's not like selling chocolate. If you sell loads of chocolate, you'll make more

profit if you manage your costs. If you sell a load of motor

insurance at €400, you need to price

in how many will have claims, the value of those claims,

and do you have enough capital to pay it back. So what tended to happen

back 10 years ago? There was a couple of failures, as I've said.

Satanta being one of the bigger ones, probably priced too low. The

claims environment got very challenging for insurance companies in

Ireland. Claims were increasing. Whiplash was a big thing. The

premiums that came in were suddenly passed out by the claims that were

estimated and they didn't have enough in the tin to

pay out the possible liabilities. And the Irish state had to step in.

It was a lengthy high Court process and we all ended up with a bit

of a levy. If you know that on your motor insurance, even the bills you

get, Steph, they'll be, you know, Your premium includes 5% government

levy plus this levy, that levy, the other levy, one of them is the Quinn

levy. But all in all, they're to pay for some of the financial failures

that we've had in the past. So after that, insurance

premiums rocketed. Mortar now absolutely

rocketed in Ireland. It became a political issue. Of

course, then there had to be a number of challenges

to which they had to go in and review the Injuries Board

and how we deal with personal injury claims up to that

point. Whiplash, you'll be familiar with that

phraseology. In an accident you can get

whiplash. And it's medically, it can be, I

think, quite difficult to not define, but it tends to

be he, he, he said, she said, if it gets to court as

regards the medical evidence. So whiplash cases in Ireland were

about 15 grand. UK was about five. And

we're a small country, you know, people often say we're the size of Greater

Manchester when it comes to numbers. You can't, you can't continue

with that level of claims, pay out and expect low

premiums or competitive premiums even. So there was a number of different things that

had to come. You know, 80% of those injuries back then were

whiplash. And I suppose the insurance premiums peaked in about

17, 2017. And then there was a number of new. There's new

judicial guidelines out in the last couple of years around

personal injury. So it's into the courts. And you know, once you get into the

courts, it takes two to four years to actually get

results. So we're still in the middle of that graph, that

cycle of waiting to see do

those guidelines work and how many, because you

can. A solicitor can accept on behalf of

his client or go to court. And we're seeing court cases the whole

time. So in terms of price, it has been coming

down over the last four or five years and over the last year has risen

by 2% according to the CSO figures recently. And that's

the first increase in five years. It's kind of in line with inflation, isn't it?

So you'd expect it's kind of in line with inflation. And one has to bear

that in mind as well, that, you know, an insurance company has higher wage costs

and pays electricity as well, so their costs are up, that's for sure. It's probably

averaging about 600 quid odd promoter insurance at the moment. And

I suppose the other point then, in terms of the industry and the way it

works is most people will go to a broker for

their insurance. So you guys, you know, what does the process

of working with you look like? Let's use somebody who

you know is moving to Ireland, has never lived here before, you're having a chat

with them. What does the process of getting insurance and specifically the

timeline look like? Yes, so there

is, there's a couple of very important things. The biggest one is the

golden ticket is your no claims bonus. So we're familiar with that language in

Ireland when you're coming From Australia, Canada, abroad,

America, etc. The language might be slightly different, but it's still going to be called

a no claim statement. But a no claims bonus is what one

needs. It's a one page PDF. It's not the 85

pages that you get at renewal time from your insurance company. And it

basically states your name, the dates it was on cover

and the amount of years claims free. And

that is your ticket to getting the Most competitive price.

5 years. In Ireland, claims free would be considered

normal for the maximum, though some insurers give up to nine years and

you get, you know, you get up to 50, 60 or 70% off,

depending on the insurer. So it's quite an important

document financially. Timelines, it really does

depend on how efficient your own insurance company broker

is in your jurisdiction. And bear in mind

that the policy has to be canceled. So if we take an

example of yourself, Stephanie, if you're in America and you need to

get to Ireland in four weeks, week's time and you need the

insurance in place before you jump into the car, you'll need

to cancel your policy in America at X

date and make sure that you get the required documents in your

inbox. Sorry. When you're in the air or something like that. Because once you land,

you need to. The policy needs to be canceled. What do most people do,

John? I mean that, that, that's. I'm just thinking practically. Yeah, practically. It's

crazy. You're probably running errands in your car right up until the

second year. I remember we did. You need that

car. So what do people do? It tends to be a bit of a juggling

act, to be fair. You're dead right. The policy can't be live, you see, in

America. Yeah. So it has to be a canceled no claims

bonus. Now, once you get into the nitty gritty of trying to get

quotations, you see, it's all about like everything in the world, Stephanie. It's big

data. That's what it's all about these days. So getting a

quotation with us, or indeed any broker, you're going to need certain

things. Your license number one, license details and an Irish

air code and the car ridge. Irish air code.

Yes. For a place you reside, for the. Place that

you propose to reside, which in many cases

we've seen, you know, it's going to be mom and Dad's place maybe for

a period. Airbnb. Yeah. So in order to get the guaranteed

quota and to effect cover, they're all things that are, that

are needed now. So okay, so that's interesting.

So air code. Right. That is a question of fact as to whether you have

one. Your no claims bonus documentation.

There's logistical issues there potentially around when do I actually

take myself off cover in the foreign jurisdiction. That's right. Perhaps you hire a

car for the first couple of weeks in Ireland so that you can drive up

until the last minute. I mean there's ways around all of this. Third point

license. Let's talk about that. So

take me for example, just because I know very little about this

area. So you can refresh my memory if I'm recounting

things wrong. We went to Australia and

I had an Irish license before I went. I got an Australian license when I

was there, didn't have to do a driver's test, could just exchange.

And when I came back I had to hand in my Aussie license and

they passed me out a new Irish license. Yes. Which I

think was on the basis of the fact I had sat my test in Ireland.

Don't. You will know more about it. But that's not necessarily going to be the

case for someone coming from the U.S. is that right? That's correct.

So in your case, your license date inception probably goes

back to your first Irish license because you'll be in the system as it

were. We have encountered a couple of ones interestingly enough where

maybe the it's not on the system your old

Irish license, but we've come across examples where the client was able

to physically produce the old Irish license and the

ndls said of course there it is. We'll agree that. So there, there

obviously is a, a line inside in their offices where the

data isn't online. Yes, yes there's. And the fact

that that still existed because I Do you remember before they were carried and they

were like paper and it would disintegrate in your wallet over a period of

time. They weren't made to last.

And also. So just, just at one point that comes to mind as well on

this. If somebody can you get insurance in Ireland on a

foreign policy. On a foreign license. Yes. If like you. Okay, that's

interesting. So we'll take a couple of examples. The best thing to. Yes, you can.

You can get insurance in Ireland on a foreign license the

way that under the law you can drive in Ireland

temporarily as a temporary visitor. Inverted commas for the

first year effectively. But really you need to exchange your license

after about 185 days. I think they say that's when

you're considered living permanently in the country. So you can get cover on

a foreign license. Absolutely. But there are a couple of conditions as

regards where you come from. So, in other words, the UK

now is outside of the EU system for

licenses, so it's considered a third country, as it were. But

there's an agreement between Ireland and Britain to exchange

licenses. So under the law, technically, if you're living In

Ireland over 12 months, you're not licensed to drive with a

UK license, and therefore, if you're not licensed to drive, you're not insured.

But we do know of cases, because we see them, where people are still driving

under their UK licenses. Maybe they're not aware. Has that ever made its

way to the courts? In other words, like, has somebody had crash. Nothing

has. I haven't seen one yet. No, nothing has happened yet. It's very gray,

it's very new. You know, Brexit only probably got out

of legally in the last couple of years. In terms of

repercussions there. I don't think there's been a case yet whether. Whether

there ever will be, I don't know. I don't know. But. But

realistically, what you're saying is if you're driving in Ireland on a UK

license, check and see if you have insurance

coverage, because there could possibly be issues. Well, the answer

they will give you is you need to get an Irish one. Technically,

if you're a permanent resident of Ireland. Yes. You'll have people who go back and

forth. How does that work then for somebody coming from the

U.S. any exchange agreements?

Yeah. So slightly different from the U.S. now, the

U.S. system, you know, there's many states over there. So

what Ireland have decided to do is it's treated as a learner

permit any American license. So it's a little bit trickier

and a little bit more time consuming. And

unfortunately, post Covid, post pandemic, there are a

number of delays in the system. So that's one. If somebody's coming from

the States that needs to be very aware of, get your appointment in as soon

as possible because it'll take longer than you think. So the

US ones, what they say is you can drive in Ireland for a temporary visit

of up to 12 months. That's what we've said already. You can drive, but you

must go through the licensing procedure. Then if you're coming from the us,

that means you have to sit the driver theory test, and I think there's some

time limits around that. So in other words, when you pass your driver theory, you

can't just go and do the driving test the day after. There's actually a procedure

involved whereby you have to go and do driving lessons in Ireland

for a young person. We'll say starting out at 17, they have

to do 12 essential driving driver

training lessons spread out over a number of weeks

before they take their bull driving test. If you're coming from the

States, that number is now six. So there is a bit of good news.

And how expensive are driving lessons these days?

You maybe you don't know that it is, it is something that you have to

factor in, isn't it? You, you cover that cost yourself in addition to the

insurance? Oh, absolutely, yes. I suppose you could be looking at between 40 and

60 or €70, depending on what part of the country you're in an hour. Yeah,

yeah, yeah. And in terms of the kind of

quotation, is there a loading for people coming

from abroad or do they come into the market on an equal footing?

So let's say if I have five years, no claims, Irish

license and somebody has five year, whatever it's called, equivalent of

no claims for the US and the US license, do we both

get the same quote? Now perhaps that's a difficult question to answer.

Do they need to budget more? No. So you won't, you won't get the same

quote because what tends to happen is a lot of Irish

insurers that will quote for the Irish license, won't quote for the

American. Okay. The market is smaller. That's what tends to happen. Yeah, they

pick their niches. You know, it's like, like what I mentioned earlier, the more,

the more you sell isn't necessarily success for an insurance company

because the claims roll in. So they tend to pick segments of the

market and that changes regularly. And you know, like we get an

email every so often from a large insurance company to say, oh, we've extended

our acceptance criteria. We're now accepting full licenses

under a year. And before they might have been three years and suddenly

they're coming in on top. Okay. It's a movable feast. It really

is. But what tends to happen is there's your

bonuses, say you have a full bonus and you're coming from America,

you get treated the same. Here, it's a full bonus. Here it's year for year.

Okay. Okay. Well, that's good. Yes, it is. It's very good. At the moment, there

was a time it wasn't, There was a time it was kind of

half and that would push up costs. So at the moment, touch wood, it's

year for year. So you get your Full driving history allowed

against your Irish policy. Where we see the challenges coming, I

suppose, are in advance of your renewal date

after 12 months. As we know, 12 months goes way faster than we think. Yeah,

yeah. And you. You need to have the Irish license then,

like. And there are delays in the system. We know that.

So. So basically, once you get your insurance on your

foreign license, you need to kind of have the wheels in motion. What happens if

you come up to that renewal date and you haven't got an Irish license at

that point? So there's a couple of things depending on the insurer. So there's one

large Irish insurer will not give a renewal quote unless you have an Irish license.

Okay. They'll send us your bonus and tell us to go elsewhere.

There's another insurer who will agree the COVID once you've

made an appointment within DLS because of

delays. So that's an interesting one. How long that will go on for,

I don't know. I'm still surprised there are delays within the system. You know,

we're going into 25. I'm not sure why they can't resource

that area better within the state and get these things done, but that's

another day's work. So, yeah, that. That definitely is a challenge.

I would say get in very early on that, you know. Yeah. Be

proactive, but it's. And that can be a bit of a nightmare too, for certain

people because again, we'll go back to the error code. They're going to. Look, you're

going to have to maybe have a MyGov ID page. You'll have to upload your

error code. There'll be a lot of data that needs to sync and be correct.

So if you're living at home and you're moving somewhere else, you need all that

stuff to sync together at the right time. So we would

talk about my account, which is a subset of MyGov. Yes.

And you generally need PPS number for MyGov. That's right,

yeah. And we get back some emails from clients saying, I don't have

my license yet because we had issues with PPs and

error codes. And. Oh, it's not just the NTLS bit there.

There's quite a bit involved. Yeah.

Thanks for listening to Tax bites for expats. Please do leave a

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