he extended his ministry and took it out into the community.

So I see too many ministers who were just locked into the pulpit who were

just locked into the brick and mortar.

And they actually need to deal with what Jesus did and the disciples did and carry

their ministry out into the community

Uh.

How can biblical principles reshape business ethics and personal growth?

Join us today on Seek, Go, Create the leadership journey as we welcome Herbert

Addison Burns, an educational and biblical consultant from Cleveland, Ohio.

Herbert specializes in fostering manhood and character development

among at risk youth and provides guidance for faith based businesses

aiming to operate according to biblical scripture with a legacy rooted in

faith, including service as a prison chaplain and work with urban youth.

Herbert shares insights on the powerful impact of integrating

faith into both education and life.

And into business, Herbert, welcome to seek, go create.

Thank you, Tim.

I'm excited to be here this is a wonderful opportunity to share what

I have about biblical scripture

Yeah, very good.

We're going to have fun with conversations related to that.

That's what we're all about here at seek, go create.

Before we launch though, I prepped you a little bit.

Let's start off with what used to be my icebreaker question, but it's

got a little bit of depth to it.

Would you rather answer.

What do you do or who you are go ahead and choose which one you want to answer as the

first question And just go into the answer and then i'll jump in in a little bit

Yeah, well, you know, we talked about this a little bit before we got started.

So, to be honest and fair about it really is a little bit of both.

I'm a man who grew up in a strict church.

My grandfather on my mother's side, my mother's father was a very

important minister in Cleveland, Ohio.

He actually started.

2 churches, 1 was community and me.

The other 1 was Alan temple.

And the late Bishop, Richard Allen started that church.

And the reason why I'm getting to this, because I grew up in a very strict.

A, and the background, it was the kind of environment that.

Is a child coming up had to go to Sunday school.

And then from there, I'm going to pay the service.

then from there I had to go home and every, every Sunday

was a Thanksgiving dinner.

Every Sunday.

I mean the ham, the rolls, and my mother used to preserve these fruits and she

made these pies and you couldn't really go out and play until everything was ready.

know, so and, and when you're done you had to go by yourself and

play outside with the other kids.

You couldn't sit around with the adults.

but my grandfather, When he came to Cleveland, he came from South Carolina.

He was illiterate.

He grew up on a sharecropper plantation.

so 12 kids.

My mother was the youngest.

he went to school because he wanted to learn.

He wanted to be a doctor and a fisherman of men.

And when he decided to go to school at night gain his literacy skills, he used

to ask my mother which world was which.

And, on in life, I guess, fast forward and I really didn't know,

where I fit into this world.

I just really, had ignored my background, my strict background.

But up call that I got, was back in 2000.

I wanted to go into the ministry.

And, I was living in Columbus, Ohio at the time.

I contacted the Ohio Department of Corrections and they took me on.

They took me through the normal orientation process.

And most people don't understand this, but a chaplain has a different role.

A chaplain, although you have a certain faith based affiliation,

but you're servicing people from other faith based groups.

And you have to find a common thread that's going to really link up whatever,

faith based belief, that they hold on to.

It wasn't hard, because there were Christians, there were Muslims, and,

most people aren't aware of this, that Muslims do believe in the Bible.

they believe in the Torah, they believe in the, there's a board, which is the Psalms,

and also the Injil, which is this gospel.

The only difference is that, they don't believe in the divinity of

our Lord Jesus Christ as Savior.

But you, in order to serve them helping through their Greek periods,

their trials and tribulations, you have to find something that's going

to link between what you believe in and what they believe in, in order

to give them spiritual nourishment.

And it was very successful.

So to answer your question, I'm a spiritual person.

I believe in the law of Moses.

I believe in the God of, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

and I believe in the second Adam, which is Jesus Christ, our Lord,

God, the Savior, that's who I am.

and I love that.

You kind of gave a glimpse into some of the things.

I want to talk about which is that legacy of The church that you came

from because I do think that kind of determines who we are You Often,

you know, where do we come from?

What is, what is our, our lineage, I guess, legacies.

and I love that it kind of led you into a ministry role.

So just as a quick fast forward, and then I may back up a little bit, cause

I want to put some pieces together from all that you said currently today.

I think you said earlier, you're not doing as much in that prison chaplain role, but

you're working quite a bit with business owners, from a faith based perspective.

Tell me just a little bit about that.

And then you don't have to give all the info because I may come back to it

later, but just bring me up to speed with what you're working on today.

Well, what's going on Tim with, most business owners, they, operate a business,

even though they say they're a faith based business, they are not aware of.

The law statutes and commandments because they're spelled out clearly.

There's actually contracts, in the book of Exodus and the book of Leviticus

on how a business should operate.

And they don't step outside those boundaries.

So what I'm, what I'm doing right now is I'm bringing forth those contracts.

I'm bringing forth those biblical contracts and also the code of conduct.

And what's interesting about that, I had an experience a few years ago.

I was, At a insurance seminar, and, normally during these type

of events that they have certain representatives of these seminars,

and they explain what the company is their history, their background.

what's required and the people who are invited there.

They have to go through certain requirements, basically, and

meet standards with the company.

Now, 1 of the facilitators and I found this really interesting.

There was a man sitting in front when he introduced himself, he said that he had

an experience that he was in the military.

So the facilitator said, well, I appreciate your service.

And then after another 20 minutes, he said, again, I appreciate service.

then he said it again.

And then it dawned on me what he did.

That was a code word.

That was a cold word basically to say or suggest that you meet all the

requirements of our company, will be not only accepted into our company, but into

this inner circle, good old board networks are not acceptable the eyes of God.

If we go to, efficiency chapter six, verse nine, God talks about in

the end of that chapter, respect.

Respect means from the Hebrew language, it means actually

putting forth getting in front.

So, who meets the requirements and performs, acceptable standards to

their company that they're working for, employee has the same right

and privileges as anyone else.

If you're after work and you're drinking around with other Christians

and you're drinking beer and having fun and slaps on the back, those

types of social characteristics cannot be carried over the business.

Because if you do that, you're actually breaking the code of conduct this in the

new Testament and that's having respect.

And God is not going to respect or have respect.

For anyone when they enter the kingdom except for those live according

to mosaic law and the teachings of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Right.

So one thing that's intriguing to me is kind of question popped in my mind.

One thing I think that might be valuable.

because with conversations like this, I think it's really easy for us to look

at what people might be doing wrong.

And I do want to discuss that.

I want to look at what some of the business leaders and other

leaders might be doing incorrect.

Cause I am sure we could look around the culture today with our politics

and leadership, even in ministry and business, and we could find stuff

wrong, and I do want us to address that.

But what I want to ask you kind of first here, Herb, is what are

some things that you're observing?

That's some leaders, especially in business.

What are some things you're seeing that they're doing really?

Really well, some things that when you look at it, you

go, wow, that's impressive.

That's good.

I'd love it to be a little more specific if you could, because I like

to catch people doing stuff, right?

So does anything come to your mind, anything you want to share?

And then we, I do want to look at some of the things they're doing wrong.

what are some things that some leaders are doing right?

That you're, you're seeing out there.

Well, when we go to the book of Colossians chapter four, verse one, when Paul

talks about the master should treat and the master in this case, Let's say

that's the employer and they should treat their servants, equal and fair.

right.

So, when I see owners, basically.

treat everyone now that, of course, we have laws, we have

anti discrimination laws.

when I see, business owners, when they're actually treating people,

their employees, regardless of.

The race, regardless of their religion.

I'm not an advocate of the gay community, but we have to treat those people fair.

You have to treat those people equally.

But when I see business owners actually doing that, and when another employee

is not treating another coworker or another employee well, they'll step in.

So what they're doing is they're employing and putting that biblical verse to use.

And really, beyond that, from a legal standpoint, they

really don't have to do that.

But they're creating fair,

peaceful working environment.

And that's love because, Christ says that we should love ourselves first.

And if we have love to our brother, that means God is in us.

if they're exhibiting and producing an environment of peace, equal

and fair treatment, that means they're putting it to use.

That environment is equal, is fair, and also love, because, if we don't

have love for our brother, then God is not in us, we're a liar.

one thing related to that, Herb, we're both in our sixties, so we're mature.

I'm guessing you've seen a lot of things over the years and

I grew up in the Deep South.

I grew up just outside of Atlanta in a small town that

got swallowed up by Atlanta.

You mentioned your grandfather came from South Carolina.

The Deep South obviously has a lot of issues related to

discrimination and things like that.

My question is Herb, and I don't think I'm not trying to lead anything with this.

you be candid as you want to be with me because we're brothers in Christ right

here, so we could do this in your 60 plus years, we have heard about issues

of discrimination and, and they're not just race, there are other things too,

you brought them up, there's other people that have different sexual

orientations and there's, you know, the male, female, there's different

things there, but are we getting.

Better or worse when it comes to that issue of discriminating?

I would so love to think we're getting better, but I'm not sure at times.

How do you assess that and what would you like to say about it when I kind

of give you that topic to discuss?

Discrimination, are we getting better?

Or is it getting worse?

When we talk about discrimination, for me, being an African American, I have

to look at it, from that perspective.

when we're talking about, Education right now, of course, we have black history

and we're rapidly approaching that month.

black history is not being.

Presented the way it should, because.

Each different local geographical area, they had their own story to tell.

Black history for the most part.

We focus on the traditional leaders we focus on.

Dr.

Martin, the king and Frederick Douglass.

but for me, coming from Cleveland, Ohio, Northeastern Ohio, during the time that

I was small, we had a lot of, segregation in the educational school system.

the children back during that time were put in very deplorable conditions, so the

parents wanted their children to learn and accommodations that were fitting

for those children to be educated.

And when they actually went out.

picketing the school system, they were confronted by two

different major riots, during that time period, and, it was awful.

A lot of people were, were hurt, injured, we had domestic terrorism

that was, inflicted by the, the local Cleveland police during that time period.

So these things really need to be brought out and it's not.

a broadside against any particular race, but these tragedies need to be exposed

and also the good things and also the positive advancements that That, people

in my race have brought forth to make this a society that's been benefiting

off of these technological advancements.

And to answer your question, in some ways, it has gotten better in some ways.

It's gotten more.

So here we have a man just recently 2 weeks ago and upstate New York.

know if you heard about it, his name was Robert Brooks, who was beatily

murdered, and this was on video, this was actually on video, and, and, the

CEOs, there were four CEOs who murdered this man, and no arrests have been made

yet, none, and, people want to always, point the finger at our President elect.

but during the, Camilla Harris Biden administration, the murder rate for

innocent black men and women, was on the rise during this administration.

So, and, none of those officers were arrested.

So, in some ways, with the attitude, with the, perspective of some of

the teachers, with, with some of the adults, it has gotten better

maybe on the individual level.

but if we look at, the police departments, all across the board,

and I have to basically zero in on Ohio, it really hasn't gotten better.

Herb so related to that, I don't want us to go deep into the political

Realm because I truthfully can argue a lot of different stuff on both

sides and all that I don't know if it's a this side or that side issue.

This isn't if you ask me Is there?

Something, and I, I'm in general, a less government guy, because I

think when there's more government, there's burdens that come in and

anyway, but that's just my belief.

But is there something at that federal government level that should be done

or I'll give you a few choices here and you could take it and do whatever you

want to do with, or is it something that our churches should be involved with?

Or are there, or are businesses, which you and I work with, you know,

is it, is it down at that level?

what are some things just from where you say?

And I know you don't have the answers because if you did, you

would be the guy in charge, but what are just some of your thoughts?

Yes, I got the answer, but nobody's called me up to ask me,

and I'm not going to tell them.

what are your thoughts on that?

Because a lot of people say, oh, the government needs to just enact all

these laws and make people do stuff.

I've seen that, and I don't see that that works real well, and I

don't know that I see the churches doing what I'd love for them to do,

and what are your thoughts on that?

no, there's no right or wrong answer.

if we start from the top, with the federal government and just looking back.

into the 19th century where we had, the fugitive slave law.

for people who aren't familiar with that law, that law actually gave

Midwesterns and Northern states, the, the legal responsibility for it.

If a future slave or if someone thought they were a future slave, they had

the legal responsibility to arrest that slave and go through the normal

legal channels and send that slave, back to a Southern state and put them

back into the institution of slavery.

right now, we have a law,

I think it's maybe the 13th amendment.

that actually outlaws slavery, but there's an exception, which means that

if, someone is incarcerated, that means that they're going to be subject to going

back into the institution of slavery.

And that law is still on the books.

in a lot of states, this happened during the Clinton administration,

there were more black men incarcerated during his administration than any other

administration during that time period.

the law should not give exceptions or legal loopholes,

to allow racism to enter into.

number one, that's what the federal government needs to do.

and also on the local level, with the churches.

for me, if we look back into history, there was an instrument called

the slave Bible, and that slave Bible was really created actually

psychologically and manipulate people.

Right.

The Negro population in the West Indies to accept the institution of slavery and

to accept that that was their destiny.

That was their fate.

Now people will actually automatically assume that here we are in 2024.

That's no longer on the books.

That's not true.

We do have modern Bibles.

We have ministers who actually endorse and support the institution of slavery.

Now, when I say slavery, What I mean by that is according to the definition

of when a person is divested of all human rights and they are one

human being owns physically another human being is chattel property.

So that's what I mean.

And that's why I particularly use no other Bible, but the King James Bible.

Of 1611, because when it comes to the righteous relationship a master and

a servant, the word servant is used.

The word slave is not used in this Bible.

The only time slave is used in this Bible, when the Hebrews, the Hebrew population,

were enslaved by the Egyptians.

And when, for instance, Joseph went in and was captured and went into

slavery the Egyptian government.

So the churches really need to be when it comes to this, when it comes to the

issue of theological corruption, or that word, or the term slavery being used.

And they need to be proactive to getting back to my grandfather, we

had two major riots in Cleveland, the Glenville riots and the Huff riots,

and I'm not gonna, we don't have enough time to get into the details, but

he actually physically went into the community and actually offered prayer.

He offered prayer.

So what he did was he extended his ministry and took it

out into the community.

So I see too many ministers who were just locked into the pulpit who were

just locked into the brick and mortar.

And they actually need to deal with what Jesus did and the disciples did and carry

their ministry out into the community like what you're doing with your RV and

actually make it a working word, you know, actually take your ministry out and

connect it with the people physically.

And my grandfather, he even went door to door and knocked on doors.

Ministers aren't doing that.

this needs to be done today.

Yeah, I think one of the things I observe, one of the things in my early,

I was saved in my 20s, I went to a multicultural church, non denominational

church in the Atlanta area, and I think that was helpful for me.

Yeah.

You know, growing up a white guy in the South, going and worshiping

with people from cultures.

We had Hispanics, we had African Americans, and you know, the

music was awesome because it was a mixture of all of that.

and I do think sometimes we segregate ourselves even in our church world.

And, you know, some communities there's not a lot of diversity

anyway, so that makes sense.

but I like when we worship with.

Other people, you know what I mean?

And we get around others and I love what you said, Herb.

It's so powerful.

I think there's a lot of churches now that are sort of in the entertainment

business or the comfort business.

And they expect people to come through their doors and they kind of, you

know, close those doors and they have people inside that building

instead of opening the doors and getting out in these communities.

Because I think that's more the answer than maybe the government coming up with

some law that says love thy neighbor.

I think we need to actually go out and love thy neighbor,

ourselves and show that right.

with the businesses you asked me, and I didn't cover that

part with the businesses.

What can they do?

Basically, and this would really cross all racial barriers.

Is there 1 of the practices that has been acceptable, but.

Is not acceptable, according to biblical scripture and

that is the at will contract.

Tell me more.

yeah, at will contracts.

gives the, the employer the flexibility.

determining employment based on no reason, based on no forewarning.

and I've seen it many, many times.

I've actually have seen groups of people actually being dismissed.

I've actually, when I was younger working in a factory to, my college

fees, a guy, this was a white guy.

He had a beard and for one reason or another, He was dismissed and I heard

later on that the foreman particularly didn't care for him because he was

wearing a beard and the employee has no legal repercussions whatsoever.

that's getting back to Colossians chapter four, verse one, when you're treating

your servant, or in this case, the employee fair and on equal terms and the

biblical, the Hebrew biblical language.

means God fearing.

So when an employer And a plural is just based on type of feeling that they have,

or it's a social bias that they have.

they're not God fearing.

That biblical language also means righteous.

You're not being righteous in the eyes of God.

And it also means law abiding.

Now, according to the human language, of course, you know, it falls

within the framework of the law.

under the highest court in the land, under God's law, you're not

being a law abiding person under the law, statutes, and commandments.

Right.

Herb, Do you ever get pushback from,

we'll say a business person, when you begin bringing up.

Some things, especially going back into Old Testament law.

I think a lot of people, that would call themselves Christians.

they're cool with sermon on the Mount.

They're cool with Jesus.

They're cool with New Testament stuff.

But if you go back to, Mosaic law, Levitical law, some of the deep

stuff in the Old Testament, do you ever get somebody say, yeah,

but that stuff just doesn't apply?

and if so, how do you respond?

I would ask that person, the first question is,

do you believe in Jesus?

And the answer is absolutely going to be a yes.

Do you accept Jesus your Lord and Savior?

And the answer is going to be yes.

I said, okay.

I said, well, you have doubts about Mosaic law and it no longer exists.

And they're going to say, of course, I believe in that.

I'm going to take them to the book of John chapter five, verse 46 and verse 47.

Well, Christ says, if you do not believe.

In the writings of Moses.

You do not believe in me.

There it is.

There's nothing else to discuss because the Old Testament and the New Testament,

flow and they run in harmony together.

There is no discord.

And if they still have problems, can go right back to the New Testament.

We can go to the second.

Timothy, the second book of Timothy, chapter three, verse 16, where

Paul is giving instructions to Timothy on how to build a ministry.

Those three books, first Timothy, second Timothy, and Titus, they're

called the pastoral epistacles.

So, you know, those are the letters on building ministry.

So we can go into the second book of Timothy chapter three, verse 16.

Paul says all scripture, all scripture is divinely inspired by God.

so here i'm going to play a little bit of the I hate to use the term devil's

advocate in the conversation we're having here, but I'm going to use a counter that

I could hear some business people might bring it up but herb Is it even possible

in the world we're in today with this Babylonian structure that we've got,

that is our federal government, and we'll talk United States, we could obviously

do similar things with other countries, but the, all the federal laws and

regulation, all the state, all the local, is it even possible for me to adhere

to those biblical laws and principles?

All of them in the world we're in today.

yes, it is because the laws and statutes and commandments are not

grievous, to my knowledge, there's no government law on the books.

that will actually force you to break the law and statute

of commandments and God's word.

There's none.

Now, if it gets to that point, then you have to make a choice.

And when you said that case that was brought up in my mind and people

might feel uncomfortable about this, but that's just the way it is.

Because, I'm not here to please people.

I'm here to help you, Christ, especially those who knew a lot, those

who were actually very astute and knowledgeable about Mosaic law, the

Pharisees who were hypocrites, you know, and they always tried to trick

them up, but he basically came with the truth, whether they liked it or not.

And that's the way it is as ministers.

When you're helping people, no matter who they are, no matter what they

believe in, you're helping them.

You have to give them the truth according to, what I call

sound doctrine, sound doctrine.

If you believe in the teachers of Christ, if you believe that Paul, who wrote most

of the New Testament is an apostle of Christ, he talked about sound doctrine.

if a person says, well, if it's really possible, there might be a situation where

you just might have to make a choice.

And I think about a woman, correct me if I'm wrong.

Years ago, I believe it was in the state of Alabama.

worked for a small municipal government and she was a clerk.

She had to actually sign off on the document to accept the gay marriage.

And she said, no, I'm, I know I'm not doing this.

That's it.

what you have to do at that point.

you have to accept the fact that you actually believe in Christ,

that when you make a decision, even though you're going to go through

adversity, He is going to help you.

You have to believe that.

He's going to help you.

He's not going to leave you hanging out to dry.

And Christ said, when you stand up for me, you're going to be afflicted.

You're going to be afflicted.

You have to accept that fact.

But in that infliction, also says that when you die from me, you will live.

But if you just live for the world, if you're just living

for the world, you're gonna die.

I do recall that story.

There might come a time in your life of business where you

just have to make that choice.

but Christ is not going to leave you and your family in a destitute situation.

He's not going to do that.

When the disciples came to him and they were concerned about their daily bread.

it was a story about the raven the raven comes back and still

God supplies that raven what he needs and you're above that raven.

Oh, you with such little faith.

I think I do recall that story.

It may have been Kentucky that that lady was in, I believe, but I remember that.

and I'll tell you the scripture that popped to my mind.

So Matthew six, I don't know the exact scripture, but it's,

you can't serve two masters.

You can't serve God.

You can't serve mass.

You can only serve one master.

and I think it comes down to who do you serve?

and what you're talking about are having to make hard choices about that.

So circling back a little bit to the businessman, I asked you a couple of

questions that might be where someone is countering what you're attempting to

lead and guide them in, do most of the people that you interact with and work

with, are they ready to do anything?

Everything you say, according to the biblical standard and principles, or do

they think they're ready and there's still a bit of a process that they need to go

through to get to that level of depth.

Did that make sense?

That question makes sense to you.

What are your thoughts on that?

there's going to be a wide variety that people are going

to be on, different levels.

But that, Tim, that question, it gets back to what Paul says, you have to be patient.

You have to be patient with people when they're given the ministry.

And he also gave the parable.

you can't give people meat.

You have to give them milk.

sometimes you just can't throw everything at everybody.

It might take them time, to consume it and digest it.

and not only does it weigh on Christ, also, have to pray for the Holy Spirit.

You have to pray for the Holy Spirit to actually enter that person.

You have to pray for him.

That's what needs to be done.

because

there are different levels of faith and belief.

when we talk about Paul, Paul murdered Stephen,

but he did it in ignorance.

And he said he did it in ignorance, but I haven't read it anywhere in the new

Testament, I honestly believe that's why Paul suffered so much affliction

because he had a debt he had to pay.

That's what I honestly believe.

So when we're talking to different people and some people may not

accept it, some people might be hanging on the balance a little bit.

It's important to be patient with those people, to stay in contact

with those people, to pray for them along the way offer them love.

And hopefully God will give them the Holy Spirit to enter their life.

Because the timing is on God.

It's not on us.

All we can do is deliver the gospel.

Yeah, I think that's good.

You know, the word grace just popped into my mind and it's a word that

some people throw it around in our.

Culture today, even our church culture and some people use it

in different ways and all that.

It kind of made me think, I wanted to go back to something you

brought up at the very beginning and talk about a few things here.

You said that, that AME church that you grew up in, I don't know

a lot about that denomination.

I know a little bit, but you said that it was, they, they were.

Serious about church that you were at the church.

If those doors were open, you were there.

And that was an expectation, obviously with the family you're in, was there

a lot of grace in that environment?

and was that something that.

I'm not asking you to be critical of how you were raised or anything

like that, but I guess I'm sort of asking, what are some pros and cons of

growing up in that extremely strict, as you worded it, church environment?

I didn't understand exactly, during that time period, because I was so young, both

of my parents were working at the time.

my mother was a secretary.

My father was a cop.

He was a Cleveland cop.

so the background, my home life, it really just centered on education.

as far as theological instruction and faith based instruction, that

was really, set aside for Sundays.

but for me, I guess I just didn't understand what the benefits would be

being raised in this type of environment.

but the pros were that it laid a foundation and, those

theological instructions were really incorporated through the

moral fabric of my everyday life.

we had to keep the house clean.

we had to respect our neighbors.

It didn't matter who it was.

there was a woman next door who was very nice to us.

we had two fruit trees in the back and sometimes I'll be in a bad, you know,

kind of, my kids already get mischievous and I would throw cherries in there.

my mother made me actually clean up her driveway.

Well,

And later on, come to find out that woman was a prostitute,

but it didn't matter because no one told me that that woman,

was breaking the commandments.

The theological instruction that was incorporated, it was

incorporated in my moral conduct.

Hey, listen, you disrespected that woman.

You get up there and you clean up my driveway.

So later on in life, after high school, I broke away, but I came

back because I had that foundation.

And those were the pros.

Those were the pros.

I had something to fall back on because when I saw other young people who

possibly didn't have that foundation.

And they would just let us stray and they didn't make it back.

And now I can actually thank God and I do every day.

I thank God for actually giving me the chance, giving me the chance

to deliver his word, giving me.

bringing me up in a spiritually, the spiritual hierarchy that I, that I

had, and it wasn't just my grandfather, brothers, uncles, they were all ministers.

So, God is really blessed me and I, I thank him for that every day.

So those were the, the pros were the foundation, the cons were that

there was just no knowledge of understanding why I'm doing this.

I remember I'll say this and it was kind of funny.

my grandfather was called pastor in another church, and this church,

they were conducting funerals.

And they were actually having all these coffins on the second floor.

I asked my mother about this yesterday.

I said, Mom, do you remember?

I was about maybe six.

She said, I know what you're going to say.

You were seven years old.

And you were lifting up the lizards coffins.

And you were slamming them down and running around the church.

And my grandfather said, Carol, do something with that boy.

So that was that.

there are times we need correction is that's important to, you know, when you

were talking about your neighbor, the thing that came to mind, I think about

this so often and I try to visualize this scene of Jesus with the woman at the well

and the language that he used with her.

and I try to do it because at times I could be fairly stern in

the way I speak and, you know, it could come across strong and I just

think about him in that situation.

And I think if we use that example more, the world would be

a little bit of a better place.

One thing I definitely want to ask about, I'm kind of progressing a little bit and

picking off some things from earlier.

When you went into ministry and specifically when you went into chaplaincy

within the prison, what are some things, I know you said you don't do that as

much now or you don't do that anymore.

What are some things that you've learned or pulled from that

experience that you're still using today while you were within prison?

Because that's one of the.

toughest ministry situations that I hear.

I've done some things in elderly care homes and all that, but

I've never gone into prisons.

What are some things that you could tell us that you learned from doing prison

ministry that's still with you today?

There were 2 things, well, really 3, really 3.

The 1st thing that I, that I learned in that environment, in the prison

environment, because I was, at that time, ministering, 3 different facilities, and 1

was actually a maximum security facility.

And there was a certain culture, there's a certain culture, within the prison system.

And never forget, that I first entered and started working that environment,

I had a very difficult time actually, keep getting across to the inmates.

and one inmate one day he said, you know, chaplain, want to think about

maybe, talking to the inmates, talking to the guys individually, you know,

because you do have the authority.

To bring them in.

And when I did that, everything changed.

Everything changed.

And I actually met three, ex-offenders on the street.

This is a true story, on, on the street.

all three of 'em, every last one of 'em were reunited with their

family, had a job once, started a job and had a small business.

And we actually had conversations.

We actually had conversations.

When I was actually talking to them individually, we talked about their

family, we talked about, what got them in there, we talked about, what would they

like to do when they get out, I talked about their educational goals, how they

feel about certain things, what they're going through, and they never opened

up, they never opened up while they were around other inmates what they did

when I was talking to them individually.

The other thing I learned.

Was that I was asked to actually be an arbitrator with other chaplains.

One was a Protestant and the other one was Catholic and they were

actually having disagreements on how they were to conduct services.

And I said, this shouldn't, you know, this, this shouldn't happen, but

it did, but, but, but, but it did.

And that was another awakening experience for me because I was new.

in into the field.

And when I did that, I just had a difficult time actually reminded them

about how to actually love yourself.

Love your brother, and is why you're here.

You're here.

You know, you're healed to help.

The unfortunate, even if you have to make a sacrifice.

Even if you have, you have a schedule and it's going to be interrupted,

a way around it, you know, explain, explain that to your congregation.

You're not, I mean, you're human.

So those were, I guess those are the other things.

And, the 3rd thing is that, institutions need to be more

supportive of our chaplains.

it's amazing how when we talk about.

Love in Christ.

We'll talk about the love of God and actually, having the word of God

and the Holy Spirit move through us.

And should allow that to, transform our nature so we can touch other people.

But a lot of times us in these positions, we get so caught up into

our ego and the ego is nothing more than personal interest and personal

interest is a quality of Satan.

And, there were institutions that I found it difficult to actually get support,

reading materials, books, scriptures, newspapers, because, there were actually

some church officers who felt that, well, you know, I should have had your position.

And I actually received that type of response and that was for

me, an eye opening experience.

And was also an educational learning experience

Yeah, I think it's very disappointing When the ministers and the religious people

start arguing amongst themselves about do this or don't do that, it kind of leads

to what we were talking about a little bit before we hit record, just about religion.

The thing I love that you said there, and this is, I want to emphasize this.

I love that you said that when you first went in.

I'm guessing you were probably doing services and talking

to groups and all that.

And that wasn't getting as far as you wanted it to.

But when you started having one on one conversations and the word

I'm going to use is relationship, that's when things change.

And I think.

That relationship is probably the answer to a lot of things we've been

talking about during this call, Herb.

I think it goes back to some of the discrimination and things.

Relationship is what's important, and it may not be collective.

It might be one on one.

It was so good and so powerful that the relationship of one on one.

I think what we try to do in our world today is we try to do the easy stuff.

It's easy to get up on stage with a microphone and talk to

20, 200, 2, 000 people, and that might be good, but you know what?

That one on one, that's powerful.

There's one other thing that I saw in your resume or when I was studying you, you've

done some work, I think with youth and the topic has been manhood and character

development and things like that.

I guess I'd love to just hear some observations or I guess I'd just love

for you to share just a little bit.

about what you're seeing there because.

Probably what's going on there at that youth level is a reflection of

what we're seeing in our culture 10 years from now or 20 years from now.

So if we could back up 20 years, what we're seeing now

was what was going on with that.

So what, what can you say about that?

What would you like to share about that in light of the

conversation we've been having?

would reach out, I would say, reach it out.

To the parents who have young males.

And those who actually believe.

And God's word that God has, like everything else, we'll talk about

business, but God has a criteria.

God has requirements.

For man, and of those requirements can be found in the book of

Micah, chapter 6, verse 8.

And he actually list those requirements.

what a man is.

And man from the.

The Hebrew biblical language, and there's 3 levels of a man, and that word is

Adam or Adam, but Hebrew definition is the 1st level is a human being.

So, when we have males, who are actually, disrespectful.

to their teachers.

to their parents, they're actually receiving.

Counterproductive again from the world.

they have computers, which is nothing more than a cell phone.

That's the corner, but it's nothing more than a handheld computer and,

they have access to videos and movies and, the parents will really be

more observant and more attentive about what's entering their mind.

the 2nd level of a man is a hypocrite.

The 3rd level is just a low man.

So they're receiving all these messages from different movies.

On what a man is or what a man should be, accumulating vast sums of wealth,

cars, and sex, and, having a lot of different female relationships.

that definition is contrary to the biblical definition, and we actually

see what's going on right now when the world defines what a man is, it leads

to violence, it leads to destruction, or what the Bible calls, Now, when

it comes to accumulating wealth or provisions, of course, and I believe

it's in his, second book of Timothy, where a man has to provide for his

family, because if you don't, you're considered less than, an infidel, but

there's more, there's more, qualities.

To be a man or reaching manhood.

when parents right now, what they should do is they really shouldn't investigate or

if they don't, if they can't investigate it, if they don't have the biblical

knowledge to actually, find out what the biblical definition of a man, how to

mold a man's character, go see your local priest, go see your minister, because

you don't want to, you don't want your, your, your male to get to the point.

where he's 30, 40, 50, 60 years old.

And I, I've actually saw this in my own life where someone who I thought I used

to know actually engaged in an argument.

And this man, was in his sixties.

He got into a verbal confrontation a man who was young enough to be his

grandson, who was in his twenties.

And the young man actually apologized to him.

And then, he told me about this experience and what makes it

so Disturbing but interesting.

He told me and his son later that was his definition of manhood was engaging in an

argument with a, a young man, young enough to be his grandson in an environment

where people are bereavement in, and I'm telling you, I honestly believe.

There were a lot of, there are women right now listening to this, were,

I honestly believe they will agree that there are a lot of men right now

who have reached the stage of life where they're either 40, 50 or older.

who have the wrong conception of man.

And the only way, the only way, to actually find out what the true

definition of manhood and develop properly is to actually go through

Micah chapter 6 verse 8 and there are other biblical scriptures or talk to

your local, minister or your priest.

that's so good, because I do think the root of a lot of our issues

are related to that manhood.

so Herb, it's been a great conversation.

We've talked about a lot of things, but because right now you really are

ministering with, to that business person that's attempting to, to live and operate

their business by biblical principles.

I think what I'd like to do here with my last question is I'd love for you to just

speak into the mic, look into the camera, because I think a lot of people want.

to operate their business by biblical principles.

I think they desire to but maybe it's hard for them to see how that might

happen So i'd love for you to just maybe encourage them just give a word

of encouragement Just so that people can finish up if they're maybe wrestling

with how they can Operate their business and make money maybe they're battling

between, serving two masters, mammon or God, and they want to serve God with

their business and all that they do.

just give a word of encouragement for that business person that

really wants to serve God.

God in all they do.

My 1st word encouragement.

If a business person feels from the deep down depth of their soul.

There's something that's not right in the book of John, it says.

are 3 levels to repent.

And that means 1st of all, you have to admit the fact that

there's something that's not right.

That's the 1st step.

The 2nd step is to actually tell God that, Forgive me.

You ask God, you ask Christ for your forgiveness.

And then you seek help.

Because we're talking about the, old books, and those were kings,

you know, back in the Old Testament, they all went to the prophets.

They all, all the rulers, all the kings, all the princes, all

the merchants, they, They went to the prophets first to seek help.

So, you know, so you are a ruler and that also brings to the mind.

I'll give us a number one on time and I'll bring this example.

I actually met with a major business owner.

It's been a long time ago, but he had a major insurance agency in

downtown Manhattan in New York.

he pulled me along in his office and we talked about 10 of those personal

relationships and he had a different personality that he projected when he was

around his sales force, but he showed me a different type of guy when we were in his

office and he actually humbled himself.

So, my words of encouragement, when you seek help from your minister,

your priest or whoever it is.

that personal relationship, but at first it has to start with admitting

to the fact that something's wrong in your life, ask for repentance, and

then physically go out and seek help.

Those are my words of encouragement.

Those are, those are very helpful.

I love the humble yourself.

Herb, if someone wants to reach out to you and connect with you and,

and talk to you more, or find out more about what you do, what's the

best way for someone to do that?

They can do it two ways, Tim.

they can call me and my phone number is 216 563 2031.

Or, they can actually email me.

At Herbert Burns, the number seven at yahoo.

com and, within 24 hours, I will respond.

So,

Nice.

We'll include that down in the notes.

Haven't had many people just flat out, give their phone number.

That's pretty unique.

I actually appreciate that and like that, that shows relationship right there.

So, herb, I appreciate this final question.

We are seek, go create those three words.

I'm going to allow you or force you to pick one of those that just means more

to you or that you want to say something about as my final question, seek, go, Or

create, which one do you choose and why?

I would choose seek because, seek basically reminds me of when actually

told the disciples to go out and seek those, seek those who need help.

And they were spreading the gospel through all over the world.

That really connects with my ministry is to seek those wherever they are,

wherever they're located throughout this country, whether it's in person,

or on zoom to seek those who need help helping their life, whether it is through

operating their business, according to scripture, or maybe they want to

develop into a man and they don't want to live by the worldly principles.

So see, see, that really resonates with me.

Excellent.

Love it.

Herbert Addison burns.

Thank you so much for joining us here on seek, go create.

I've enjoyed the conversation.

I knew that we would, I told you, it's going to be like you and I

sitting over coffee, just kind of talking about some deep stuff and

we had some good deep conversation.

For those of you that would like to reach out to Herbert, he gave you his info.

Make sure you do that.

All that'll be down in.

And I also appreciate everyone listening in here.

We've got new episodes that release on YouTube and all

the platforms every Monday.

I appreciate you continuing to listen and sharing and making

comments, especially over on YouTube.

Y'all are making some awesome, great comments over on YouTube.

Thank you for that.

Thanks for listening in until next time.

Continue being all that you were created to be.