This is an AI transcription, apologies for any typos.

00:00

19 years old, and a full life ahead of me. I've got instant regrets because I've gone down a different path from that happy go lucky, bloke and angry.

If you live in the UK, gambling is a part of everyday life. If you don't have the apps downloaded on your phone, there's normally one or two bookies on your local high street. Sometimes even more 44% of men declared that they had gambled on at least one bet in the past year. But for some people, it can become an addiction, and a dangerous one at that. Andy was struggling with his gambling to the point where he'd become entwined with nearly every aspect of his life. One day, when he felt like the weight of the world was on his shoulders, he decided to go for a drive.

00:44

I got an E M one just south of Darby headed towards Leicester. I thought to myself, I spelled the speed. Let's get that thrill. Go from 5060 7080 pressing down as hard as it can. weaving in and out of cars in and out of the lanes. Soccer keep on going faster. It's given me that buzz, that feeling that adrenaline rush, knowing something that could go wrong at any minute. I've got my music on full blast. It was one of my favourite tracks as well. Everyone knows me about this song and trance set you for a water song. I can just switch off as I'm in that car. That song takes me back to 1999 a visa clubbing with my friends dancing on a table without a carrier world. It's the peak of my life. 19 years old, and a full life ahead of me. I've got instant regrets because I've gone down a different path from that happy go lucky, bloke and angry. I'm upset and myself. I feel destructive. I could feel myself tensing up. The arms starting to shake. I need to rub my hands together. I take my hands off the steering wheel, wiping away all the sweat from my hands. Still controlling the car. With no hands. I need to challenge myself. I'm gonna get to 15 seconds.

02:10

I close my eyes 123

02:15

I get to six. The adrenaline rush is kicking in a bit more like a roller coaster. That feeling of being not protected. Within my car. It feels good. Seven a nine. Okay, here are the cars while some driving past him in that middle lane. I'm in my cloud. I'm in my bubble. I don't feel protected. But I don't care. 1112 1314 This is it. I just don't want to be here anymore. Then all of a sudden an image came into my head. A beautiful girl. Smiling away that beautiful smile. It's my wedding day. It's my wife coming down Ayal absolutely happy. I can't leave that behind. How can I 15 then opened the eyes startled. Snap out of it. I relax. The foot comes off the accelerator. I slow down again over to the inside lane. A pullover icon comes our whole set there for a minute thinking about what I've just done

03:50

like grab the handbrake indicate wait for a space and pull back on the motorway or pull up outside my house. i You're right. She says yeah, I'm fine. Had a good day. As you busy day at work, got to behave.

And they it seemed like the absolute world was on your shoulders. Not just on that day, but on many days that were probably leading up to that. And then you go back home and you pretend everything's okay.

04:29

Yeah, I was in disarray. I was living my hand to mouth day by day. Everyone on the service had everything that I ever wanted. People could probably see what everyone did. I've got a lovely wife. I got a lovely home. I've got a great job, nice car and get to go on holidays when I wanted. But scratching that surface beneath it. Oh was a broken man. Addiction. It broken me. I knew it was. But I didn't know how to deal with it. I felt alone. I felt ashamed. And I felt embarrassed.

Yeah, it's all about this putting this mask on, that everything's okay. And the person that's closest to you in your life, at that time, your wife who you'd been married to for a year at that time, she didn't have a clue. And you're still putting on that face that everything's okay. When you come back home.

05:32

I thought, like I say, again, I was ashamed. And I knew I was probably doing something wrong. I knew it. But I didn't know how to make it right. And I thought the only way to make it right, was to carry on doing what I was doing within the gambling. And that sets off more lies. I was lying to myself. I used to believe that it was alright. Doing those normal things made me feel like Yeah, I'm okay. I'm fine. I'm all right. But then I'm not. I know I'm not deep inside. I thought the only way out every time to make myself happy to kill the problems are hard inside. Whilst the gamble is to kill. But it was also the cause.

It seems like there were two different men that day, two different sides of Andy, if you want to call them masks or even different people. You're in this self destructive mode on the motorway, then you come back home and you completely different person.

06:38

Yeah, I just, it's just like Flick, flick the switch. And that's how I felt I was like, as a person in my life. During that time during that era, I was in disarray, complete disarray. And I say on the face of it, I look like a normal bloke happy bloke. Without caring the world, always trying to do stuff for everybody. I've always been like that. I've always like tried to look after everybody else, but myself. And I think that was a problem as well. I wanted to make sure people always well looked after, without realising I needed looking after myself.

I've definitely been in that position before where you put in everyone ahead of yourself on the oldest of four siblings, when they have a problem, they come to me, and you're constantly helping other people. But after a while, you think, actually, I'm having a couple of issues here. But it's like, I can't reach out to those siblings. I can't reach out to other people. Did you feel something kind of similar in terms in terms of your mentality?

07:46

Yeah, definitely. I mean, I was brought up in a era where the bloke demanding the house was responsible for everything. So it kind of followed suit, so to speak, that the blokes got to be big and strong and hate the same, but you always man up to every problem. That mask and hide in a way or your own deep problems and deep rooted problems inside, you have to look strong, you have to look like the one who's helping everybody else. Be that resilient man. But as far from it, I was, I was in bits inside and get to the point where I couldn't cope. I knew I needed help. But I didn't know where to get it. I felt ashamed. Because of that stigma. Where a bloke never has any problems. You don't talk about it. You don't need to talk about it talking about is weak. Its weak to speak. can't share your vulnerabilities. Show your care. But you also show that you're big and strong. And that was my mentality.

And this man up turn that you mentioned is something we've grown up with, right from primary school, you fall over or something like that you graze your knee and you see a kid crying because they've fallen over or whatever, and it's all man up. You can't man up when you're seven years old. But we still have this embedded in the society, isn't it?

09:22

I say back then in the 80s 90s growing up, had to mask How you feeling? A woman could a lady could quite easily I mean, she can show how she felt. But I'm being very stereotypical and very generic. Obviously. It was kind of embedded into our heads. Girls can be girls are emotional, but boys are big and strong. When it's far from the case, as we know today in society, it's okay to talk. It's not weak to speak. It's fine for a man to cry. It's fine for a man to be upset. It's fine to go out and talk and get help that you might need mentally. It's fine.

Your story made me think of the huge note city video I've done and want to call it. And so an awareness video recently went on, I think something had something like 40 million downloads or something like that. And it's been huge, and it's talked about male suicide and how this one guy seems happy and everything's great in his life. And then there's another guy who's looking depressed. And at the end of it, it ends up being the guy who comes across as happy. You know, they're in the Norwich City's Carrow road stadium watching watching the games. And he's the one who's jumping up and down every time they score. But at the end, it's the is the guy who they perceive to be the depressed guy who's actually putting the scarf on the on the on the seat as a as a kind of remembrance to this happy go lucky sort of guy who killed himself. And it seems to be very much parallels with your story.

11:03

Yeah, agreed, I mean, a sketch in a match season ticket Adobe. And used to go with like one or two friends or my father sometimes and I'll be there, I'll be happy, I'll be singing, shouting along and cheering or kicking off with, we're losing etc. But what we all go through in emotions of a football game. I was I was that guy. In that video that Norwich shooting video, I was that guy who's masking it, who looks on the surface to be absolutely happy, buzzing to be at a football match. Wanted to talk about it and everything. I'm quite sociable guy. It's like when I go on holiday, I was one of these guys. Oh, talk to anybody in a hotel, by the pool, whatever. Go and strike up a conversation. I've always been that guy. But I was masking everything. It's probably one of my coping mechanisms in a way just to keep my mind off other things. And to degree it might have worked. But obviously I needed help. I wanted to get the help. But I just didn't know how I could. And I felt ashamed and embarrassed because of the stigma.

Yeah, and there's still a huge stigma in society about it right now. Even though the there is more awareness around suicidal thoughts and feeling very low as a man can't show any weakness.

12:33

Yeah, definitely, I think I think it's changed a lot. I think it's come very far last 10 years, five years. Definitely got to keep sharing, it is okay to talk about life. Talk about your struggles. It's also okay not to talk about me if you don't want to, I think trust plays a big part in this as well. As I say back in the day, you've talked to probably probably questioned everything and not trust anybody. And certain evidence of life, you can be fine doing that. And that's, that's fine. But it's probably finding trust in somebody to open up and talk to, and building up that trust. And it's a big stigma for some who probably can't do that.

So this was, what 2006 17 years ago, you've got the love of your life, who knows you probably better than anyone else. And that was kind of indicative of your mindset at the time and the times that we live in, that you had that trust with her, but you still couldn't speak to her about how you felt.

13:38

Now I couldn't because I had to be the big strong man, the big wage earner. Well, wife had a decent job as well. But I took it upon myself to have the bank account. She had her own bank account. She paid a set amount each month to part the bills or didn't want to take 5050 is the man thing to do? Pay the majority of the bills, keep the upkeep of the house, help clean around the house as well at times, but she was the one who did most of that as well. And that was indicative of the society at the time. But yeah, I was like, I couldn't open up to her. I just felt it'd be weak even now I knew she probably helped me to this day she would have done and judging since she's still my wife now. She put up hell of a lot through my life and stood by me and if I said something there and then might have got help I needed a might not spell favour out in control.

That's the thing about vulnerability talked about before, the more than men are vulnerable. They almost become stronger because it is a difficult thing to be vulnerable as a man I think because it's not expected of you in society. So they are Is that you probably would have become, you would have got closer to your wife at that time if you'd have shown your vulnerabilities. But it's just, if it's not something you've ever done before, how can you just be expected to do it one day?

15:13

Yeah, absolutely. And I think it probably is testament to the time again, as well. I think nowadays, if I was going through the exact same thing, I've got so many more resources, I can listen to so many real people, because it's the podcasts, I can listen to people look at professional sports. When you talk about mental health to this day, you can look at the likes of Tyson fury, who struggled opening up wide open other sports people as well. People you look up to and you think, wow, yeah, I've done that. I'm thinking that, I feel that and is them role models that help you open up nowadays. But then I don't think mental health was a bit of a taboo subject, especially around then you don't talk about it, it was brushed under the carpet, you forget about it. And I'm glad society's changed from that time, where I was driving that car and closing my eyes. Believing I've got no help to thinking about 27 year old me but then if I was 27 year old, 2627 years old now I'd have that support. I'd have that belief, it's okay to talk about how you feel it and not be ashamed or embarrassed.

Sports stars and people in the public eye. They do help a lot in this area, I think because like you use the example of Tyson fury, the amount of millions of guys look up to him. I mean, everyone's looking up to him. He's what, six foot nine, or whatever it is. But those kinds of people show that it's not something that you need to be embarrassed about to talk about how you feel.

16:55

And it's also it can happen to absolutely anybody. Absolutely anybody if you talk in terms of my addiction, I've sat with people who bid on the streets on one side of me, and another bloke in his mid 50s, successful millionaire. We're all going through the exact same thing. It knows no bounds, addiction or mental health issues. It knows it has no barriers to effect anybody

that goes nicely into gambling. And I wanted to talk a little bit more about that. Because what you just said about you've got two different men on either side of you. You could go into the bookmakers or you could wherever you bet, or you gamble going into a casino you could have some guy who looks really scruffy like it could be some homeless guy on one side. And then the other side, you could have a guy in a really pristine suit with a with a briefcase, you know, a gambling addiction affects all different kinds of men from all different walks of life.

17:57

Yeah, they call it a silent addiction. We talk about drugs and alcohol and they you can see the physical facts you can see me face to face at the moment you won't be able to tell I was a gambling addict, or a compulsive gambler or whatever you want to reference me. And yeah, exactly. And they call it the site addiction for a reason. We hide it away for so long. And that's probably goes back to what I was talking about earlier as well is shame, the embarrassment. It's more of a shame shame for the addiction in my eyes. Because you know you probably not don't you probably know in your deep mind if you're going to be if you're alcoholic, or you're struggling with drugs. It might be a bad thing today it might be affecting my life. But gambling it's it just brain it absolutely brains year to put it in a crude term and I was just so focused every time I woke up in the morning, coming off a night shift I'd be up at nine o'clock in the morning wake up. They think I'm thinking about what I'm going to have a bet on today. What can I play today? How can I how can I get himself out of a hole today? I know what can gamble. It just affected my life. I gambled from a young age I was gambling from the age of 14 but I was alright for a hell of a long time. I was just gambling on things understood for so long that football and horse racing. I got that big win and in a poker tournament in around late 2005 I beat beat 700 People in poker Tom it took me five hours to win form five grand that was like a couple of months wages in five hours. And I safely say that was the worst thing that ever happened to me. Because I thought I could win 10 grand. I thought it could went 20 grand. I thought 100 grand thought Why should I go to work at Toyota thing feeling stinky filthy greasy. When all I have to do is when it online it or when it in the book is

this idea of the fact that right now, people would be thinking in their jobs, if they started to go along that gambling journey, they think to themselves, well, I can work a lot for a little bit of money. Or I could do it just flip the other way around and work a little bit for a lot.

20:22

Yeah, exactly. And I was just like, chasing, chasing, chasing and with it like, say, within space six months at max out for credit cards two times, and I got two loans. I went from controlling the gambling for so long. I loved horse racing, it was my baby. And I never liked that guy control. But everything else poker. I went from plus playing tournaments were like 10 pounds to enter. And just playing the tournaments, and if I got knocked out, and it cost me 10 quid to play in having four different cash tables, Gambian every hand for different games opened up blackjack on the side, gambling on cartoon horse racing. If there was two flyers going up against the wall, if I could, I would bet on which one get a heist. I just lost it lost all control. And there was regrets within the gambling. I mean, when I know it sounds daft, and probably still to this day, I loved it. I love gambling. And I loved the thrill of the chase. The rush, as it probably described earlier, that feeling of like going fast in a car, being on a roller coaster, and getting that thrill. I shouldn't probably been doing it. But it was there. It was that Chase is that ultimate boss. Even when I won or lost, I wasn't bothered had to do it.

Let me ask you a question. Are you a man as a wife, kids, great house, great job, couple of holidays a year, but you still feel some sort of void in your life. Almost like there's something missing. This is something I hear a lot when interviewing our guests for stories of men. And it's an aspect of modern manhood that I just can't seem to quite figure out. But I'm always exploring it. Everything looks great on the surface. But you know, deep inside, you feel something is missing. And reminds me of a quote from Sigmund Freud that I read recently. And it said, Life as we find it is too hard for us. It brings us too many pains, disappointments and impossible tasks. In order to bear it, we cannot dispense with palliative measures. There are perhaps three such measures powerful deflections, which cause us to make light of our misery substitutive satisfactions which diminish it and intoxicating substances, which make us insensible to it. And I guess gambling actually encompasses all three of those things. It's intoxicating. It's a substitute, and it's a deflection of everyday life. And it wasn't just gambling at the book is on his phone. It had seemingly slipped into almost every facet of his being. The fact that he was trying to feel something by gambling with his own life on the motorway by closing his eyes and taking his hands off the wheel while driving. And not just his own life, but that of others too. He was constantly living in this win lose mentality. When he lives lose he dies and potentially takes other people on the motorway with him. I know really well about this win lose mentality and I've lived it myself is definitely the ego talking and we've got to ask ourselves, how do we get away from this mindset. And he has since been in recovery for his addiction and helps others through theirs by talking about it. It's important to know that if you're listening, no matter how far down the addiction pathway you are, there's always help available and a way out. There's loads of great information and educational things to read at Epic risk management.com That's E P IC risk management.com