E17_What is a high Performing Home

[00:00:00] Matthew: Hi Hamish, how are you?

[00:00:52] Hamish: Oh, good night, Matt. How are you buddy?

[00:00:55] Matthew: I'm good.

[00:00:56] Hamish: Matt, Matt and I were just rambling, just before we started this podcast about what we're going to chat about we were just joking that we're probably going to talk about the same thing, so we're probably just going to echo each other when it comes to this stuff, but, um, today we are going to be talking about, what we feel is a high performance home. I know this terminology gets thrown around quite a bit these days, and I think it's a really great thing, but personally feel that there needs to be some context wrapped around what actually a high performance home is, and speaking of wrapping, I don't actually necessarily think you can just wrap a building and call it a high performance home.

[00:01:36] What do you think, Matt?

[00:01:38] Matthew: I think the word high performance house is actually or high performing home has lost all meaning. I think it's the new greenhouse eco, eco home or sustainable home. I think it's just now fallen, fallen into that trap where people have sort of just caught onto this word and People like you and I building to a high standard and our high performance criteria is definitely not what others are.

[00:01:58] And yes, we are sort of the top end of [00:02:00] it. I go back to the recipe of the cake. You can't just eliminate bits and pieces and pick and choose what you want. This is not how it works.

[00:02:07] Hamish: I totally agree. I mean, I think, we're going to cover a bit today. And as I said, we're probably going to echo each other, but I I wonder if it's important to talk about what we feel the current building stock is and why we feel that that's not High performance. Have you got any thoughts around that?

[00:02:24] Matthew: I do, and I will probably piss a lot of people off with my thoughts on, on

[00:02:30] Hamish: Well, that's okay. We like,

[00:02:31] Matthew: to click bait stuff. we want it to go viral again, Maddie. So keep going, keep going.

[00:02:35] it's It's a real hard one because it comes down to budget and I understand that everyone has a different budget and I understand that money doesn't grow on trees, but we again have to draw the line somewhere with the way we build and what we currently build in Australia is not good enough and we all know it.

[00:02:49] we're still too focused on getting things for cheap and people reach out and like, what do you build per square meter? We We need to take that, that thought out of our head and we can't compare a custom home to a volume builder house. They're completely two different things and we need to start to differentiate from what we do in the general residential market of buildings or the average mom and dad house.

[00:03:07] Compared to the volume builder and they saw the average mom and dad. That's fineBut they're two different things one is there purely to get a house up and it's as cheap as chips But when we talk about custom architecture and custom building, it's custom It's not a cookie cutter project.

[00:03:19] Wewe're just building that once and it's very individual to that client. So that's where I say we need to understand the difference between the two to start with. the first thing we need to understand is the difference in modeling.

[00:03:29] So for me, high performance starts with your modeling at the start of a project, and that is comparing the PHPP, which is a passive house planning package, compared to the NAHRS, which is the industry standard regulation tick box star rating to get a building permit. think that's where high performance needs to start.

[00:03:46] Hamish: totally agree with you. And,we'll stop on the star rating things for, for a little bit. You know, recently our homes, throughout Australia for the most part have adopted a new seven star, approach and it's a whole of home approach. Now, in my [00:04:00] opinion, this is a great thing.

[00:04:01] Do I think it's good enough? No, but where I think the biggest pitfall is, is that seven star is still theoretical and it's not tested and it's not checked off during

[00:04:13] construction.

[00:04:13] Matthew: It's also code. It is the minimum standard we can build to is 7 stars. You're not doing anything special. You are just building to what the code tells you. It's one step above illegal. That's it.

[00:04:24] Hamish: I think it is important. I think maybe we just give a little bit of credit where credit's due. There is a reasonable jump between a six star and a seven star home, If. It is built as designed.

[00:04:36] Matthew: I'm going to put this back on architects though.Because all they have to do is change the orientation of the building and design the buildings correctly the way they were taught to at uni and utilize passive solar gain. And now they've gone from 6 star to 7 star. They're just doing their job now.

[00:04:48] That's it.

[00:04:49] Hamish: I love it. How controversial you are, Maddie. It makes me smile.

[00:04:52] Matthew: but it, but it's true. Like so many, you see so many designs come through and they put all their windows on the,south and east. How would you start utilizing the north?

[00:04:59] Like Nicole and our property at the is like our front yard is our north. So we put our backyard where our front yard is so we can get as much north through.

[00:05:06] It's just about change. It's about thinking outside the box.

[00:05:08] Hamish: is. And that probably is where we start to see that pushback between the volume builders, because they've got pre existing designs that they're going to have to change to meet the 7 star requirements. But look, in my opinion, I think the biggest shortfall in the 7 star rating is that it's not tested and it's not checked.

[00:05:26] Basically, at the end of the building. The building surveyor goes, have you built it as per the energy rating? And as a builder, you put your signature on the bottom of it and say, yes.

[00:05:34] Matthew: So what do you mean by testing?

[00:05:36] Hamish: so I know Matt, you follow a very similar approach to us, but it's really important for us to check for air tightness.

[00:05:43] To check on installation of windows are done properly and all those construction details are done properly. So internally in our business, we have a post wrap inspection that we do, on our building sites.

[00:05:55] We have a post window installation inspection, and this is all done internally by [00:06:00] my team. we then have a pre plaster inspection to make sure that all our insulation is installed properly. Okay. And then if we're not doing it a blower door, we'll do a blower door then, or if we're not putting an internal building wrap on, we'll do a blower door once insulation's installed.

[00:06:15] If we're putting a building wrap on, we'll do it after that. And we're actually testing for air tightness.We're checking that installation is correctly installed. We're checking that windows are installed correctly. We're checking that the right windows are installed correctly. And we're checking for air tightness.

[00:06:30] because obviously for our homes in, you know, our definition of a high performance home that it wants to be, below that two to three air changes an hour. broadly, the industry is not doing that stuff.

[00:06:39] Matthew: Yeah, I think the thing is like, oh, we build an airtight house. It's like, did you test it? Oh, no, we didn't, but it's airtight. Well, how do you know it's airtight? Like, it's really that simple. you don't get a result without doing the test. so everything you do is exactly the same as what we do.

[00:06:52] Pretty much. It's testing it. We actually run a thermal imaging camera of our insulation, But one thing we do, and you would do this with your passive house projects, we've actually brought the passive house system across to our standard projects.

[00:07:03] We have about 10 to 12, like, folders on our Google Drive from anything from assemblies, junctions, windows, ventilation systems, domestic hot water systems, airtight, shading. And we, every photo we put into a folder and so that way the client can have them forever to prove that we did what we, we were asked to do.

[00:07:22] I have this theory that when a client says, can you build me a pink house? We'll build them a pink house. But when we go, can we build it energy efficient? People don't do it. No one's checking it. Like the pink is visual, but we want to check what actually happens behind the scenes.

[00:07:35] Hamish: so I'm going to jump in here and just quickly say, if you follow the right metrics that we consider as to be a high performance home, which we're going to get to in a second, You can actually have a seven star home that in my opinion and probably Matt's opinion is a high performing home.

[00:07:53] Now, Matt, can I throw over to you and maybe just go through a couple of the points that you [00:08:00] think incorporate what a high performance home is. And I know there's going to be a few themes through here that people are going to recognize from Passive House because that's in my opinion is a gold standard of construction.

[00:08:12] But what would you consider to be a high performance home?

[00:08:15] Matthew: Alright, so I'm looking at a document I have here that I have as our minimum standards for Carlin constructions. And I will send to any client that wants to build with us. And this sets a boundary of what we do and we will not get involved unless this is what's happening. So the first one's really easy.

[00:08:30] Thermal modeling, because we don't want to go into a project with hypotheticals. So we use the modeling to make decisions. So do we go double or triple glaze? Because at the end of the day, we don't know until the modeling tells us what to do versus price point. that's the first part. The second part is passive solar design.

[00:08:47] Now this one's a little bit out of our, control a little bit, but we, it goes back to working with architects and building designers who are doing their job properly. So they're actually incorporating passive solar design. They get that free heat from the sun, heats up the house in winter, but also in summer that they've put in the correct shading that will protect that harsh sun from overheating the house.

[00:09:05] that's the second part. the next parts we have is water management and that is wrapping the house on the roof, the walls, and under the subfloor if we have it. But creating this complete watertight layer because again, we all know, water kills buildings.

[00:09:17] But the second thing that also kills buildings is air tightness because with air comes water and vapour. So, they work hand in hand. So, air tightness is the second part. We say that we'll get any project under three air exchanges. If it is a brand new house, we will also say 0. 6. We don't go 0.

[00:09:32] 1. We 0. 6. we're generally running internal air barriers as well. So, if we didn't have that conversation, I'd probably push it out to about one air, air exchange, but air tightness is the second one in there too. But again, when you go airtight, you need mechanical ventilation, because we want to take control back of it.

[00:09:49] Hamish, you might not be able to see on the screen at the moment, but Hamish is all rugged up because it's 4 degrees outside. And anyone that wants to run with the theory that they can use natural ventilation, [00:10:00] tell me what fuckwits opening their windows this morning when it's 4 degrees outside while they run the heater.

[00:10:04] So, that's why we have mechanical ventilation.

[00:10:06] Hamish: apologies to all the fuckwits out there that have their window open

[00:10:09] Matthew: Yeah, sorry. I'm just going to be super, super blunt with that one. I hate that. I hate that conversation. Well, we can do natural ventilation. No one's opening their windows and doors when it's this cold outside to naturally ventilate the house.

[00:10:20] Mechanical ventilation works. Then we go on to quality windows and doors. So we're usually looking for U values of under 2. 0. They are usually a UPVC or an alu clad window or timber, a really good timber window. We're generally avoiding aluminium unless they're really well firmly broken. And then the next one we have is insulation.

[00:10:38] We get as much insulation into the building as you can afford. All right. And we'd be very, very smart when we put it, but it's also making sure it's installed correctly and it's continuous. So that's when it comes back to testing and checking. Now there's two other ones I have here. One of them is a complete non negotiable and it has been all electric home.

[00:10:54] I don't understand how you can have a high performing house if it's still running with gas. Straight up like we, and I would almost say to be high performing, we need to add in solar panels as well to that because again, energy becomes sort of free. Now, the last one I have here, and this is probably the more topical one is an internal air barrier.

[00:11:11] And this is one that I personally believe that we should have in there, but it's, I'm also understanding that sometimes we don't need it. This is purely a guarantee for me to make sure that mold and condensation don't occur.

[00:11:22] Hamish: the internal rep ones are really interesting one. And I actually feel that that 1 is probably a great conversation. We should continue with Cam Monroe because, what's really important to appreciate in all of this is that when Matt and I are modeling our homes in pre construction, we are taking into consideration the climate that we're building in.

[00:11:43] Now, in our climate here in Victoria, where we build in Victoria, we're hitting the climate zone 6, in some situations, you can actually not put an internal air barrier in and you'll be totally fine. Now, if we start getting into those colder climates, [00:12:00] Then that's, it's at that point where you're actually going to start to run into problems if you don't have that in there.

[00:12:05] So look, that's probably a whole other conversation because I would probably argue on some of our builds where we haven't put internal building wraps in that I've been totally comfortable with it through conversations with the right people. but I do get where you're coming from, Matt, as a bomb proof solution.

[00:12:22] You know, putting an internal building wrap is the way to go. Proclimber have a system

[00:12:26] Matthew: Totally. Yeah, and that's where the, like, I've done high performance houses without it. It is one that I have in here to start with. Sometimes I will omit it depending on the project and depending on what the modeling is saying. But when we go back to modeling, you made a really good point about climate. I think one of the other things about high performance houses is making, it's a finer details, it's building better.

[00:12:48] So we will use a 140 external stud. All right, I know you do the same. Sometimes you can get away with 90 45. But generally, we're running with a 140 stud externally, which means we can get an R4 insulation that's continuous in that 140 mil stud. We're not running any services, electrical, heating, cooling.

[00:13:05] We then have a 45 mil batten on the inside, which is where we run our services and we generally insulate with another R1 insulation. the reason we do that, and even if you don't have the internal air barrier, we still run it that way because the installation's continuous. We all know that when your plumbers and Sparkies and whoever runs their services route, the installation's just not continuous.

[00:13:23] And, and, and we know that's the problem. So that's the reason why we,we want to have that one 40 wall with the 45 M cavity on the inside. We just find it works easier for everyone. Plus the trades love roughing in, it's a lot quicker for them.

[00:13:34] Hamish: No, dude, you know, what's really interesting. I know you and I had this conversation, probably last week about exactly this. And there's just a light bulb went off in my head and go, fuck, that is such a great idea. And it's a minimal cost. CauseI sit here thinking about my sparkies, for example, if they're trying to pull a cable out of the wall, maybe if we've got caught behind some installation or something, and now we're pretty good at, at making sure those cables are available.

[00:13:58] Cool. But if all of a [00:14:00] sudden the Sparky's in there with his bloody bent coat hanger and starting to pull out bits of insulation like you are creating a thermal bridge there because if you put a thermal imaging camera on that, I guarantee you'll have a cold spot. So I think from now on we are going to start to introduce that.

[00:14:15] Cavity batten, even if we aren't, putting out the internal building wrap on, and this is what I love about these conversations that I have, and I know you have is we're always learning and always evolving. Now, without going over too much of what you've just said from pretty much from top to bottom, we follow a very, very similar process.

[00:14:37] and I have often laughed about that. I'm just an older version of Matt or he's just a younger version of me that our brains work very similar and our booting companies operate very similarly, but

[00:14:46] Matthew: I reckon you could interchange us at times, like, it'd be no different.

[00:14:49] Hamish: we're the same. We have a minimum standard when it comes to our building wraps. We're wrapping it top to bottom. Every single project, no matter what it is, we are putting in the PHPP. Now, the biggest reason we do that is what we like to call home optimization.

[00:15:04] We're optimizing the client's budget, but we're also optimizing the performance of that home to meet that budget. Without PHPP, we are just done. There have been projects where we have modeled a 90 mil frame and the impact on performance, the heating and cooling loads of that building has been negligible.

[00:15:26] Now, the net result of that was actually the client saved another 3, 000 or 4, 000. Now, they opted not to do that. But we had an opportunity there to actually use a 90 mil frame and it not impact the performance of that home. I think we ended up with a R2. 7 high density bat where we'd have like a R4 high density bat in a 140 wall. We're modeling all of this before we get to site. And we're just tweaking those things in PHPP to make sure that we're getting the best possible performance for the budget. Now, Wade, from North South Homes [00:16:00] made a really great point at the recent, Passive House conference that Passive House is more than enough when it comes to building.

[00:16:08] don't try and shoot fish in a barrel and, and whack more insulation in there that you need because there are diminishing returns. If a 140 wall is getting you under that 15 kilowatt hour point, that is perfect. That is good enough. Because if you start building that wall at a 190 and getting down to 14.

[00:16:25] 1 or whatever, it is negligible when it comes to the impact that has heating and cooling.

[00:16:31] Matthew: We're sometimes chasing an arbitrary target when we do that,

[00:16:35] just to get a certain, and whilst I love Passive House and I think it's ultimate like you do, the difference between getting that plaque on the wall and sometimes not is very minor. Like, but it can cost you a lot of money at times because you're just chasing an endless game.

[00:16:47] that's where both Hamish and I are really good at times at going, hey, do we need to go that far? Are we really making any sense doing that? we sort of know what we don't know and we know when to stop throwing money at something. think the one thing when it comes down to this is everyone's like, Oh, it costs more, like it costs more to have this house.

[00:17:02] And. why would I pay for all these extras? Well, we do it because it's, you're providing a healthy, comfortable place to live. You are gonna have low energy bills. It's gonna be durable. And I tell you what, you're not gonna be rebuilding your house and renovating in 20 years like the rest of the market does.

[00:17:16] This house is gonna stand a test of times. It's dealing with water. it's the ultimate house. It's how they build in the rest of the world. We just are are fucking lazy and don't build to a high standard here in Australia,

[00:17:25] Hamish: Now, I'm going to go on the record of saying just by Completely wrapping a house really well top to bottom. You can't call yourself a passive house or a high performance home if you are just doing that. But if you look at the really cheap insurance policy that you are buying yourself by wrapping that top to bottom, Keeping moisture out of that building, keeping moisture off that frame.

[00:17:50] Trust me when I say, that is going to allow you to put your head on the pillow every single night knowing that water is not going to be a problem in your building.

[00:17:58] Matthew: think I was speaking [00:18:00] to Justin from PHCP in Tassie, and he was saying that one of the volume builders has moved to using the ProClimber wrap. it's costing about an extra 600, 000 a year across the board to use this wrap, but their maintenance on the projects and water leaks has completely gone.

[00:18:16] So I think we look at it from that way that yes, it's a really good investment. It's probably the number one most important part of any build. Again, we go back to it, we constantly say it, water kills buildings. it's the first protection layer in a house. and anyone that skimps on that price of a product, oh, I might go the cheap one. I just can never wrap my head around it. Well, yeah,

[00:18:35] Hamish: aside from pre construction testing and 140 walls and all electric homes what is really important, what we consider a high performance home, even if you're not going for certification, passive house, you have to test it.

[00:18:47] You have to do blower door tests. You have to do thermal imaging camera tests. You have to provide those results to the clients. You need to be accountable for that kind of stuff. In my opinion, that's the biggest downfall that's not happening. in current construction, seven star homes aren't being tested.

[00:19:03] Matthew: It's not just, it's just not 7 star. It's even just people saying, I've got a high performance house. I haven't like, have you tested it? No. Well, then it's not high performing. It is really that simple. Did you put a blower door test on it? No. I think testing starts with a blower door test. Even if you're going to be at 15 air exchanges, you still tested it.

[00:19:19] I'd rather that be done. And we start to get data across the whole of Australia on how airtight our houses are. then not do it. you can't refer to it because it's just a stab in the dark.

[00:19:29] Hamish: Now, I'm going to again, go on the record of saying that even if you've got a high performance home, like we're not saying that it's sustainable. Like you can still have a high performance home that might not be fit in your definition of sustainable. So just please keep in mind, we're not necessarily talking about sustainability here.

[00:19:46] We're just talking about what we feel is a high performance home.

[00:19:50] Matthew: I think that sometimes is the downfall of say passive house because really you can build it out of whatever you want. Like,if you loaded it up with concrete, we did all these concrete tilled up panels, you can [00:20:00] still turn that into a passive house.

[00:20:01] Hamish: Yeah, 100%.

[00:20:02] Matthew: Yeah, if it's designed and modeled correctly. So I think sometimes the materiality is something that gets lost and it is something that, so there's two minimum standards that I don't have here and they're really, really hard at the moment. And one is recycling on site because it is a very, very hard thing to do.

[00:20:17] And I know Mark from MBH nails it. but unfortunately, policy and a lot of, government agencies don't allow you to recycle everything or there's a lack of availability to recycle certain things. So, that's why I don't have it in there because I can't quantify it and I can't quantify it.

[00:20:31] I can do my best, but I'm limited by government policies that one.

[00:20:36] and and the second one is just material reuse.

[00:20:38] Hamish: I see, I love my material and where you stuff. Look, if you look at what our quote unquote definition of a high performance home is, it doesn't actually necessarily need to cover sustainability and recycling or waste management. However, it is a big part of our business. I have just come from SOC this morning and I was going through one of my teams and setting up our waste management phase.

[00:20:59] Now, We're not perfect when it comes to waste management. I have a rubbish trailer sitting outside my office at the moment, which is at the end of a job, and it's got everything in there, right? And as much as it kills me knowing that it's there, sometimes, you've just got to have a site reset and clean the site out.

[00:21:15] Now, but we do do our best and we are definitely getting better every single day.

[00:21:19] Matthew: You're cautious.

[00:21:20] And I think the good thing is you're not going around spruiking that we're the best at recycling. Like you'd be, and this is where it goes back to high performance house. Oh, we do a high performance house. And yet there's no real true claim to it, but you don't go around claiming I'm recycling

[00:21:34] in my opinion, we're doing a lot better than a lot of other people, but we're certainly not perfect. And, you know, if I look at Mark, love you, Mark. I look at Mark as the gold standard. He does an exceptional job, but he even admits he's still not perfect.

[00:21:48] Hamish: Robbie from Revival. He is doing an outstanding job, and he's not perfect. Dylan from Orwin. Again, not perfect, but doing an exceptional job. and you know, I feel sustainability and waste management is [00:22:00] probably a whole other podcast topic,

[00:22:01] Matthew: yeah, I think that's a whole

[00:22:03] Hamish: it's a whole, it's a whole series.

[00:22:05] Matthew: I've got one more here, and it's a note, and it's part of my high performance criteria, and it's a no dickhead policy, and it revolves around collaboration. do not get a high performing house or a passive house without collaboration, plain and simple,

[00:22:17] There's so much detail and so much conversation that has to happen and that's across from the thermal modeling at the start and whatever runs across the board on buildability, structure, how are we going to make this house perform the best for its dollar value. That requires collaboration and that requires everyone championing the project and no one is bigger than the project other than the project.

[00:22:34] And yes, we all have our little things we want to get in there. But the end of the day, we need to make sure the project is the number one thing on the table. We all need to be able to push usegos aside at times and just do what's best for that project.

[00:22:47] Hamish: Would you say that you need high performing clients to get high performing homes?

[00:22:51] Matthew: this is a good one. And,I think there's a whole podcast on clients too. Like all our clients are fucking awesome. Like, so I vet them pretty early on. So today I'm literally going to meet our clients on site. Actually, the second time they flew in from Japan last week. So that was the first time I'd come on site.

[00:23:06] And now it's the second time and they're awesome. We get along so well, but that's because I vetted them and most builders in this circumstance would be like, yes, the client's in there around. How good is it? I don't have to deal with them. I actually hate it. I'd rather them come on the side every second week and we can go through things.

[00:23:20] Hamish: speaking of similarities between me and Matt, we currently both have jobs under construction where our clients are A, either overseas or interstate. And I think, you know, we can lean in on the fact that that pre construction process is so important that both of our clients have put that much trust in us.

[00:23:38] To say to us, we don't need to be here. We trust you. we're going to go and live overseas. we'll just have our regular updates on teams or zoom or whatever you do.

[00:23:48] Matthew: and that is also a very, very important part of the minimum standards of high performance. Everyone needs to be on the same page. And I know it doesn't affect the House's performance, but it does affect the [00:24:00] project. And to me, to have a high performing project, you need to have everyone on the same page.

[00:24:04] Hamish: so obviously we know passive house has some pretty strict criteria. Is there a performance level that you won't build at? I know because you're seeing all air changes and your impact air chances have on performance and you're, you're looking at kilowatt hours energy consumption.

[00:24:18] Do you have some parameters wrapped around that of homes that you don't consider to be performance? We, we,

[00:24:24] Matthew: so if it doesn't have all the criteria from thermal, I'll go through it. Thermal modeling, passive soil design, quality water management, air tightness, mechanical ventilation, quality windows, quality insulation that's continuous and all electric. I will not refer to it as a high performance house and I'm out.

[00:24:39] Plain and simple. That's it. Like, there's no metric around like a certain kilowatt hour because again, it goes back to enoughness, like retrofit or renovation around 18 to 20 kilowatt hours of heating is still pretty good. It's still fucking awesome.

[00:24:54] Hamish: we have the number of 30, right? So we kind of go into that pH, high, low energy territory. Like if it's falling outside of that, which if we're doing everything right, even if we're putting a 90 mil frame in, in our climate, we're reasonably confident that we can get to that pH, high, low energy territory.

[00:25:08] And I think all the projects we have on site at the moment are well within that criteria. Some are actually in the passive house classic criteria.

[00:25:18] Matthew: actually, that's a really good point. I'm going to add that one in. I actually don't have that. They must meet a low energy criteria. Look, I hate the 7 star system, the 6 star, whatever you fucking want to call it in that system. I just think it's a whole and it's a really cool tick box for everyone. The government's invested a whole ton of money into it.

[00:25:34] So they obviously want to see it succeed, but there's so many flaws in it. Like, we're still not accounting for thermal bridging or air tightness, I still can't understand how a 7 star house in Sydney is not a 7 star house in Melbourne. that blows my mind. If you, in Passive House, if you have 15 kilowatts of heating demand in Melbourne, it's still 15 healing, heating kilowatts demands, whatever,

[00:25:52] Hamish: building physics is building physics, and I think that's why we probably both love the approach that Passive House takes.

[00:25:58] Matthew: But I do have one key [00:26:00] takeaway from this conversation, Hamish. And it's pretty much do not home a high performance house if you haven't tested it and you haven't modeled it, like, period. I don't want to hear it. I'm almost at a point where we want to start calling it out so we're not confusing the market because all it does is confuse clients.

[00:26:13] It all does is confuse architects and building designers. And all this is because people want their ego stroke. Like, I built a high performance house, but it's fucking not.

[00:26:21] Hamish: and please don't think that this is coming from a place of arrogance from either myself or Matt. you know, we've worked pretty hard to get our businesses where they are and we've come to this realization of what we feel a high performance home is over a number of years now. And, you know, I think that has credit, you know, like I know you and I, Matt, don't call a passive house unless it's certified, right.

[00:26:43] You know, and I think the same thing needs to. Be thought about when we're talking about high performance homes. Now, if you want to go out there and put building wraps on your homes, fucking awesome. That is a really great start. But, let's start thinking of all these other things. Get involved in the project a lot earlier than, where you might ordinarily get into the project.

[00:27:04] And start having those conversations around modeling,

[00:27:07] Matthew: And this is why I bring it on cam constantly. That's going to educate us on the building science things. Because as he says, it's a system. We just can't introduce air tightness and then not have mechanical ventilation or skimp on the windows or let's ignore the insulation.

[00:27:18] Like, it's an all in. It's a recipe of a cake. You can't omit one thing and just hope that cake still bakes.

[00:27:23] Hamish: no, a hundred percent. I'm at, I reckon we can keep chatting about this for a long time, but I reckon there's enough info there to digest , for the audience. And I actually reckon there's a couple of pretty good reels in there too.

[00:27:34] Matthew: and we're not having a go at everyone. We just want to set a boundary because we do understand Hamish and I do have a voice around this and we want to create boundaries and we want our industry to do better. We want more people building high performance houses and passive houses. We want more people design them.

[00:27:47] We want to bring more people in, and I understand that sometimes it can feel like we're trying to push people over these harsh criteria, but it's for a good reason. It's for the clients. We want better houses. We want better housing stock in Australia. We want better built homes.don't want to be [00:28:00] renovating projects that I've built in the past because they're failing.

[00:28:02] We want them to stand the test of time and we want them to be durable and that's it. It's really plain and simple.

[00:28:07] Hamish: Yeah, absolutely. And do you know what, if you've got your own opinion on this stuff, we'd love to hear from you because you know, we're forever learning and evolving and getting better. And if you've got your own version of what a high performance home is, We'd love to hear about it.

[00:28:19] Matthew: Yeah, and we're happy with proof and wrong. But obviously when you come with some questions, there might be some answers that you might not like.

[00:28:27] Hamish: Oh, Matty. Hi. Always good to chat, mate. Always good to chat.

[00:28:30] Matthew: Thanks, buddy. See you, mate. Ciao.