Hey, it's Erin. This week Luke and Val were out doing boring official stuff, so Hedge and I had to hold it down. Luckily, we got Inlander reporter Eliza Billingham to come talk about her story on community court. Hedge also interviewed me about my coverage of the city hall meeting, which was the most well attended in recent memory. Alright, buckle up and tune in. Hi, you're listening to KYRS Medical Expo KAN. This is Free Range, a co production of KYRS and Range Media. If you can't tell, uh, our usual host, Luke Baumgarten, who runs the board, is not here today. So you might have gotten a little bit of a false start while I was trying to figure out how to run it. This is the most beautiful false start. Alright, so since the very beginning of Free Range, we have been promising to interview reporters from other outlets about their coverage and get you the behind the scenes stories behind some of Spokane's biggest news. We have sort of failed on that front so far because we are bad at scheduling. But today, we're finally going to deliver. Kind of like Hollywood's Actors on Actors, Aaron Hedge and I are gonna do something that, in my head, I've been calling Journos on Journos, which, now that I say it out loud, is not as cool as I thought it was going to be. But we are joined today by The Inlander's Eliza Billingham, a former food reporter and newly minted City Hall reporter, who just came out with a really big story on Spokane's community court. We're gonna pay homage to her old beat by grilling her on the piece, get it? Oh, good. Very good. You wanna say hi, Liza? What's up, guys? It's great to be here. I, uh, I do feel a little bit like a Hollywood actor right now. It's pretty fun. You're gonna be, I mean, you already are Spokane famous, but maybe more Spokane famous. Oh my goodness gracious. After we talk to Eliza, I'm going to ask settlers about their experience at City Hall on Monday, which saw the biggest attendance in anyone's memory because the council passed a resolution affirming its support for local migrant communities in the face of the Trump administration's crackdown on undocumented people. But first, I'm going to let Erin take it away. Start asking Eliza questions about her story. Okay, Eliza Community court give us the basics. What is it? How does it work? Great. Um, this is one of Spokane's five therapeutic courts and therapeutic courts according to Sarah Thompson who I spoke to who's in charge of, uh, all five therapeutic courts in Spokane. They're part of the Municipal Court, which deals with, um, non violent crimes, simple and gross misdemeanors. Um, and so this is your lowest level court. Bump up a level would go to district. Bump up another would go to superior court. Okay. But this is municipal court. Under that umbrella, Um, there are, there's a typical court that you would expect. There are five therapeutic courts. One of them is community court. And this is a court that deals with nonviolent crimes that are downtown Spokane. And including also a little bit of the, uh, hospital campuses on the lower South Hill. And instead of giving cookie cutter, Sentences to people who receive citations for things like pedestrian interference, um, unlawful camping, trespassing, things of that nature. They try to individualize care, uh, for each person. And I, I say care because they, they do, um, They give sets of, uh, I like to call them rules, um, restrictions, technically they're called stipulations, um, saying you have to do this, this, and this to fulfill, uh, your obligation. Um, and then they, gosh, this is such a long explanation, but it's held in the public library so that Every Monday morning at 10 a. m. Oh my gosh, right here, right here. Right here at Community Court. I'm sorry, this is a very long winded answer. Monday, 10 a. m., Community Court in Event Room B and in Event Room A there's so many uh, maybe A dozen to 15 community resources from housing to IDs to, uh, SNAP and EBT, um, so that the judge at community court can say, Hey, you have to enter substance use counseling. And then that person can go straight. over to the, to event room A and find a way to get connected with that counseling. So I'm sorry, that was a very long answer, um, but basically it's trying to connect people to treatment instead of putting them in jail as a way to improve quality of life for themselves and all of the downtown area. So it's sort of like saying, okay. You committed a crime, but there was like mitigating factors to that, like maybe you committed a crime because you had no other place to sleep, so instead of throwing you in jail, we're gonna try to get you connected to other resources that might ensure you don't commit that crime again? Absolutely. I kept hearing people saying, we're trying to get at the why. We're trying to get at the why people are committing these crimes, and getting them to a place where they won't feel The need to trespass or camp illegally somewhere, something like that. And it seems like, there was this one really interesting story in your piece. This guy, uh, Zarin Price, who was cited for trespassing after he'd hopped a fence to charge his phone. Right, just a very basic need that everybody, like, I have to charge my phone too, but I have access to an indoor, you know, outlet. And it sounds like this guy didn't, and he just needed to charge his phone. Um, So, and it, does, does it seem like, I don't know, it just seems like the resources and incentives that they're providing um, in following these, and, and the behavior changes that, that the orders uh, necessitate, like, do they feel like that's gonna result in like, better rates of recidivism? It was really interesting. When I asked about measuring recidivism rates, um, at first I asked, um, The city prosecutor, David Kling, who is, uh, in charge of representing the city's interests in public safety and accountability. And he mentioned, um, there, there, uh, has, well, he mentioned that, um, For example, someone who's cited for trespassing to charge their phone. If they do that again, one, that's a pretty easy charge to rack up. And, and two, So recidivism rates are this, this idea of the likelihood of, of someone re offending, re committing a similar crime. Yeah, thanks for defining it. Absolutely, no. Um, and, and he said, maybe we shouldn't be, well, I don't want to put words in his mouth, but he, he mentioned someone hopping a fence to charge their phone again, doing that again, maybe because they don't have anywhere else to charge their phone. Um, Is that something, is, is that recidivism rate as weighty as, say, the recidivism rate for, um, someone committing sexual assault or someone, um, Committing a higher level crime. And so when I talked to Francis Adewale, who is a public defender, he said, we try to measure, we being the municipal court, I'm so sorry, we the community court, try to measure success by how many people can we keep out of jail for six months. That was their metric. Um, which obviously has to do with not re offending, but also has to do with, um, Trying to get someone in a more stable spot for six months and Will that increased level of stability be a stepping stone to other types of stability? moving forward so As a journalist, I really want those easy numbers of what's your success rate, what's your recidivism rate, um, you know, how can you prove that you are being transformational. Um, but in these conversations, I think I was made more aware that, uh, people have different goals, um, and trying to Trying to understand what the best way to measure success is, uh, is a conversation that seems pretty up in the air, which is frustrating for the public, and maybe frustrating for business owners who want to say, we want to know that you are reducing crime in the area. The, the, all these different spokes of the justice system. Um, but all I can do is say, This is how community court is trying to measure or gauge their success. That, yeah, that actually I took a ride along with, like, the behavioral response unit and another one with the behavioral health unit, um, which are units under the police and fire, respectively. And they kind of had, not the exact same thing, but a similar way of measuring it. They go out on all these calls, and what they're trying to do is divert people from, Jail and the hospital unless somebody like really desperately needs jail or the hospital Yes, but there are a lot of cases where? You know something happens somebody's in a state of crisis and those are really the two only easy answers but Maybe they're not the best answer and so we're like over stressing that system by just taking somebody with, you know, who's overdosing to the hospital when they've already kind of come out of that overdose. What they actually need maybe is resources or detox. And so trying to find those little diversions as a success point, but that doesn't necessarily measure You know, is this person going to do it again? Is this, has this person ended up in a permanently stable spot? But we're trying to find, like, the little successes. And yeah, it's, it's a little frustrating as a journalist to be like, Okay, you've got this checklist of diversions, but where did these people end up? Um, and I think that's, like, the complexity of the system is that it's hard to tell. All of these resources are overstrapped, right? Like, one of the things that struck me from your story was that in order to stay in community court, as opposed to like, moving up the hierarchy of courts, you have to not get cited for the same offense again for a year, I think it was, or six months? Yeah, it depends on what the judge decides. Um, Mary, Judge Mary Logan is the one who runs community court. She's a municipal court judge and does other things in the courthouse the rest of the week. But she will usually, her, the sentences that she usually uses are three months, six months, or twelve months depending on what someone is cited for. So yeah, somebody may have to come back to community court. Every week for 12 months or say, Hey, I'm not going to show up today because I have a doctor's appointment or because I have treatment or something like that, right? Do those sentences, do you know, does it matter? Like housing stock available, right? So somebody gets cited for pedestrian interference because they were sleeping on the streets and they get sent to community court and the judge tells them like. Okay, we're gonna work with you, we're gonna find you resources in order to stay here, you have to not get cited for pedestrian interference again. But does that sentence interplay with the amount of, you know, can we put this person in housing? Or like, if we can't put this person in housing, if there's no available housing to put them in. How do we ensure that they don't get cited for pedestrian interference again when there's nowhere else to sleep? Like, what was that conversation like? That's a really good question, and not one that I was able to get very deep into, I think to the detriment of the piece. Um, I think that's what, perhaps, Prosecutor Kling was trying to get at with these recidivism rates of like, um, look, if there's no place for this person to be and they get cited for camping again, That's not a failure of the, the community court necessarily. Um, but I would suspect that Judge Logan takes, um, housing availability into account when she gives those stipulations of what people need to do in order to, uh, like be successfully, um, obeying her, her orders. Um, but. Again, to the detriment of the piece, I wasn't able to have that specific conversation with the judge. But you did track down somebody that did get placed in housing, right? Yes. That like, did get placed in housing because of their participation in community court. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? Absolutely. Um, it was really interesting. His name was Sam Farrell. And, um, he had been kind of congratulated publicly by the judge. Got in a chocolate bar and got in a round of applause, uh, which is just kind of cute. It is Yeah, but but meaningful I think especially To have kind of that nod of acknowledgement from from your peers and people and so he Yes, he was, he was in compliance, doing really well with his, um, conditions and, and had been, had found a spot in Catalyst, um, up on, oh gosh, it's sunset, right? I'm gonna really make a fool of myself, so I'm here, um, Aaron's on it, Aaron Hedge is gonna figure it out, um, and And what was really interesting, so, so he was kind of acknowledged because he had just gotten this apartment, and the judge was like, great job, you know, you're doing it. And, um, and I, I, I suspect her, well, actually, I won't go into that, um, but I was talking with him afterwards, and he was talking about before this, living in a small, what he called a small tent city off the Fish Lake Trail. And, um, It struck me what a community that, that small, uh, camp was for him, and how it was jarring for him to be separated from the people that he knew, and in this kind of new housing situation. Um, and he wasn't ungrateful, he, he didn't say that he didn't want it, um, but he just mentioned what a transition it was for him. Um, and I That's always surprising to me as someone who has been housed my entire life, um, and feels very comfortable with, um, access to running water, and, and feels like, how could I ever imagine life without this? Um, to hear him talk about, well, I, you know, I used to walk miles and then I'd carry water back for everyone. And, Now that I, you know, now that the place where I can shower and wash my hands is attached to where I live, Um, it's just, it's, it's kind of jarring and shocking. And, um, I just thought that was an interesting, an interesting point. I, um, I think part of what journalism can do is just help you imagine what it's like to be another person. And I included that anecdote not because I, um, I don't know, because I felt like it explained much about community court or much about the criminal justice system, but I just thought, well, it's, it's just helpful as we're all trying to figure out what to do, um, to improve issues in our city, to just practice like entering into an experience that might be really different from our own and pretty. It was pretty hard for me to understand, honestly, um, but he mentioned it to the judge too and, and she seems like she hadn't really thought about it from that perspective as well and, and was thankful to hear it and, um, she, she spoke to him for like five minutes and it was just lovely to see them kind of And I mean, in a way that's like a radical act of love and community right to walk for miles to bring back water for your people. And I guess if I really think about it, it's like, it's not that he misses the chore, it's probably that he misses being in a community where people would like go out of their way to do something like that for each other. One thing that I noticed when I talked to unhoused folks is they have that. They have a real reason to care for each other, and they don't, it's not always perfect, and they don't always, not everybody cares for each other, it's a community of human beings, but, yeah, just like, The things that we take for granted as people, like, I've always been housed, I've never struggled with homelessness, and I'm always struck by The things that I take for granted on a daily basis and I have to be consistently reminded of, of those things and it's really like, I think it's really important to put those, those, those details in stories so that readers can, can understand what that's like, or it can, you know, at least like realize that it's something that exists. Um, so Catalyst is on, uh, Riverside near the University District. Um. But it's Sorry. No, no, it's okay. We have to look stuff up all the time. During the show. Um, So, we've talked about, like, kind of the kinds of cases that community court hears and you know, the purpose for why it exists. Can you talk a little bit about, like, The structure of how the cases work, like, how does it, how does a case make its way to the community court and like, like, how does, how does the city prosecutor decide which cases to bring, to try to bring there? So, as I understand it, um, Spokane is unique. This didn't get into the piece, so I'm glad you asked. Kling was explaining to me that Spokane is unique because the tickets that police will often give are called direct citations in the sense that they will have a court date specifically on them. I didn't realize that Any of that was, like, unique or not unique. I hadn't even thought about that. I think in most other places, uh, police officers will give a ticket, and then, um, that will be logged with, like, a city prosecutor's office, and the prosecutors will decide which, um, which cases to continue, or set a court date, or something like that. Um, but, as I understand it for community court, poli well For a lot of these citations downtown, police will hand a ticket, it will have a date on it, and that date will be the immediately following Monday at 10 a. m. for community court. And so there's no question about when to show up or where. People are pretty aware of it, it's pretty predictable, which I would think, like, would increase attendance. I don't know about that. Um, but that is That's how these sort of citations end up at community court. And hopefully, that's where they'll be dealt with. Now, if people don't show up and are chronically absent or are not responding to the citations, that's when, um, it seems like they will be moved up to municipal court, where there's a whole different branch of, uh, services that will contact you about when that court date is and start upping the, uh, punitive measures. Because you're much more likely to be sentenced to jail. Alright, alright. Be sentenced to jail time or, or like deal with more punitive measures once you make it into, onto the courthouse campus on the other side of the river. Interesting. So, and, and where, so where did, uh, and I believe this is like. The community courts exist as part of, like, the way that I understood it from your pieces, like, as part of, like, a state level system, and it doesn't receive any funding from the local government. Can you talk a little bit about, about how it's structured? That's changing, though, right? Aren't the Sorry, I don't want to scoop you. Tell me, tell me, tell me. Well, it was part of Mayor Lisa Brown's community safety tax, right? Was that some of that funding would go towards these like community courts and like staffing the municipal and community court systems, right? I'm so glad you brought this up. Because that's what I thought and that's why I started this piece and then in reporting this piece. I figured out that's not true at all Not not not true at all. It's just that the funding from the community safety sales tax is going to a Um, like pre trial and case management services at Municipal Court. So it's all I feel like that was not how it was marketed. Maybe that's because I was trying to figure out why I was confused and why I was like, I'm gonna track these tax dollars by reporting on community court. And then it was just like, not the case at all. So I was like, but I'm new to this. And so I always chalk everything up to well. I'm just a dunce because I'm like, I barely started city reporting and so I just don't understand what's happening, but interesting. That's that. That's what you thought, too, because, um. If you want to know where those tax dollars go, there's a supplementary online piece, um, not in the usual, like, Thursday, I'm excited about this, um, to talk about community justice services at municipal court. That, it's funding, the sales tax dollars are funding ten jobs there. But community court, which is confusing, It's called community court, not community justice services. Um, community court. is still only funded by the state, besides, I think the city helps pay for a few security guards because they need like, um, extra security guards when it's an official, when that part of the library is an official courtroom. Um, so no, it's not changing. State thing founded in 2013 by Judge Logan, who's still the one, um, Um, judging it. Also, um, Dr. Nevin, Dr. Darren Nevin, who's a physician on site. Very interesting character in your piece. So interesting. Wish I could have gotten into that more, but there's just no space. And, um, then a group of both public defenders and city prosecutors. Um, that original group did include Francis Adewale, who's like, probably. Uh, like a way bigger deal than he comes across because he's so, uh, modest. And um, David Kling, the city prosecutor who's there now, who's been there I think about six years. Um, he was like, just so you know, like Francis is the president elect for the Washington State Bar Association, but he will never tell you that. And I was like. Thank you so much, you know? Um, so I noticed that detail in your piece. Yeah, I was just like, I, I, he seems very recognized by his own community, um, but he's so focused on serving the people that he defends that he would just never think of like, that's the thing with the best civil servants, is that they're never gonna brag about themselves. Never. There's, yeah, there's something poetic about just like, quiet civil servants who just like, are kind of a big deal but never like, market it to anybody. Yeah, I was gonna ask you why you wrote this story, but you kind of answered it. Um, so I do want to ask you about the insider knowledge that you told me about a trivia that did not make it into the story. The emotional support duck. Can you tell me more? Tell all of us a little bit about the emotional support duck. I don't know about this. I, I really want to fit this into a whole separate piece, but we'll see what happens. Um, so, like I said, very clumsily at the beginning of this interview, there are five therapeutic courts, uh, um, under this umbrella of municipal court. And, um, and, and I should, I just want to clarify municipal court does do other things besides therapeutic courts, but it's like one arm are these. These courtrooms. So, there's community court, there's also something called veterans court, um, which is specifically geared towards veterans. Um, and so, to get an idea, to get a feel of how different community court was from just regular municipal court, I sat in on Judge Mary Logan's, uh, district courtroom for a whole day. Now that day happened to be, uh, a Thursday. Where there was veterans court and so I got to see that too about an hour and I was going up and I was going up to the courtroom and a prosecutor was going up too and he said, are you coming to veterans court? And I said, yeah, he said, just to let you know, there's a, there's an emotional support duck there and he walked away and I was kind of rushing and, and like not, I was like, surely he didn't say, surely he said dog. Yeah. He's sure, he's surely like, just so you know, you know, there's like a German Shepherd there, like, like he's probably just like, just in case, you know, in case you're scared of dogs or whatever, there's an emotional support dog. Well, I get up there and um, there's a stroller with like a, like a plastic tub in the seat and there's this white duck that's, Somehow has this, like, puff of feathers on top of its head, and I was like, oh. Is it a real, like, live duck? It's a real live duck. It's a real live duck. It's an animal. Absolutely. It is a duck. D U C K. D U C K. Um, and Oh, I wish I had my Oh, Isaac showed me photos of the duck. There's photo evidence. I have its owner's, um, business card which I wish I had on me now because puns. Absolutely. I spoke to this man for like five minutes and it was non stop duck puns. And I I love puns and I was reeling. Um, the and I wish I had my wallet on me right now because I have his card and I just can't quite remember what his name was. But Um, he was basically like, I had an emotional support dog, like a golden retriever, that this duck imprinted on and then when the dog died, the duck is like, well, it's my turn now to like, and so this guy, you know, strollers him around and he was in the courtroom to much to the delight of everyone there, um, which is just sort of like loaning people, the emotional support of his Was it Duck or was he also in court? He was also in court. So he was in like a, you know, um, I don't know how many months off the top of my head he had been through this process. Um, but this is another therapeutic court where they try to individualize um, sentencing and care and, and Uh, sign things like anger management courses or substance use or journal, sorry, not substance use, substance use counseling, or, um, have some ice cream, you know, um, or, uh, like journaling or, or the judge is much more likely to ask, you know, how does XYZ make you feel or, or, Ask her, like, a question of the day, like, Should the sky fall and something totally unexpected comes into your life, what's your plan B? That was her, kind of, question of the day. And, so, part of that individualized attention is, like, Okay, you have an emotional support duck, like, bring it to court. Bring every part of you that is, like, Working on healing, or needs to be healed, or the support systems that are in place that you're trying to build around your life. Uh, bring it here, let's talk about it, let's assess if it's working or not. And so the, this is such a long answer to your question, but the duck was a part of that! And I was thrilled. I was really thrilled. So no ducks at community court, but there was a duck at veterans court. Well it's, I think it's, the, and it sounds like just like a fun detail, but it's It illustrates like what these solutions can be for people and the story behind the duck is like It, it was, it was originally an emotional support dog, and this duck imprinted on the dog. That's incredible. It's like, I'm so glad we're talking about this, and I'm learning about it here on the radio. Was there any other little details that, you know, I mean, I never have to worry about a word count, because we just published digitally, but you have your square inches that you have to fit in. Was there anything good that didn't make the cut? Ooh, that is a good question. Um, something that was You know, lovely that I didn't connect for a while. You know, there's a cafe downstairs in the library called New Leaf Cafe. And I realized that, well, I suspect that gets its name from community court because in the back of the quote unquote courtroom, the makeshift event space, um, there's like laminated tree trunks with lots of individual leaves, um, taped up around them to, to, What's the word I want to like, make that tree beautiful? I don't know. Uh, I don't, yeah, I don't know what I'm trying to say, but, um, those leafs are all on the, on those leaves are the names of people who have had their cases dropped from community court, which is like, um, you know, they were in compliance with all the stipulations for as long as the judge requested them to be. And so they have their case dropped and, um, so then they put their new leaf on the tree. And I suspect that's where the cafe got its name from. Um, New Leaf Cafe. And, sorry, I wasn't able to confirm that because I left community court at like, 1230 that Monday because my I was supposed to turn the piece in by 3. I was like very much on a deadline I'd ended up much to my editors frustration like writing the piece until 7 that night and then we started editing it or she started editing it at Like 630 the next morning because we have to put the paper to bed by noon on Tuesday, and it's just It was crazy. Putting the paper to bed means sending it to the printer. Yes, thank you. We have weird jargon. We don't. We don't have to do that. We, yeah, so our publishing schedule, we've got to like send it to the printer by midday Tuesday so that it can come back. Whatever. But, um, so I didn't confirm confirm with the cafe that that's why it's called that, so that's why I didn't put it in print. But I'm putting it out here now because I think it's a pretty strong connection. Otherwise, I just wanted to tell you, that's what the tree is and that That event room are four and you can see that there are hundreds of them. So I think that's pretty cool. That's really beautiful Okay, so I'm going to read you a PSA and then we are going to move on to talking about City Hall Eliza, you are also obviously a City Hall reporter, so when we move on to that next section, feel free to chime in on anything you think is relevant. Sure. Alright. Alright, well so, we're moving on to our next topic, which is the Pact City Council meeting on Monday night. Um, and Erin, so you're always at City Council firing off those sick tweet slash skeet threads that we get so much great feedback on. But, um, and Eliza, you're there too. Well, it's mostly good feedback. Some people get a little feisty about it, that's okay. Um, Eliza, you're there too. You, you were there on Monday night, yeah? I wasn't because I was still writing this piece. Oh yeah, that's what you said. Yeah, that's maybe the, but, but at some point maybe I can explain why even though it's the most packed city council in world history, no I'm kidding, in recent memory, why I didn't feel the need to go, but. Yeah. Well, I mean, plenty of people saw it, uh, so. Yeah, so so so you're always there doing these like recording it making this public record, but Monday night's meeting was a little different Can you describe the scene of the absolutely massive crowd that had gathered there when you rolled up to City Hall and tell us what? They were there for yeah, so okay picture this. It's 530. I'm running a little bit late We're meeting our intern Sandra who is taking photos and like as I get there you can just hear You can hear something happening from around the block. Um, there's chanting, there's somebody on a megaphone, and when I round the corner in front of City Hall, like, the sort of entryway right in front of the building is just packed. There's noisemakers, people are ringing bells, everybody's got signs, um, somebody's handing, like, I think it was, uh, Empire Health Foundation had brought, like, pizza and was handing out pizza to people. And then there's the usual MAC movement folks who always hand out, like, water and snacks outside of city council and it's kind of a gathering space for unhoused people who maybe need more resources and who might want to take that opportunity to get a snack and come tell city council what it's like to be unhoused. Be living on the street. So there's all of the usual folks, and then just, God, I don't know, maybe like 200 more people out in front. And I'm just gonna play a little bit of audio, um, of what that sounded like. If this works. Wish me luck. No hate, no fear! Immigrants are welcome here! No hate, no fear! Immigrants are welcome here! No hate, no fear! Immigrants are welcome here! There's strength in numbers, and there's purity in it too. If you look around at everyone standing right here, you can understand that they're standing with solidarity. Understand the people that you are with here today have shared goals, shared aspirations, and what most people lack, empathy. Thank you all for being here today to hear with us. Okay, so yeah, those, those are some sounds of the protest, and then like, a rally. I think they were, they were calling it a rally, and I want to honor that. Um, and probably ten minutes before the meeting starts, right, as I'm kind of grabbing my stuff and heading down to the media table, they tell everybody like, Sign ups are closing. If you want to speak, you need to go inside. You need to go down to, uh, the city council chambers and you need to sign up to speak. Um, and of course, a bunch of people go down there. Uh, and as the meeting kicks off, I've been told probably 45 minutes to an hour into the meeting. They have to take a break because the fire marshal has realized that there are more people in and around the building than is allowed with fire code. The whole city council chamber, there was maybe like There was like 20 seats that were unfilled, but it was like one off seats kind of squished in the middle, like for the most part. The chambers were filled, then you've got the Chase Gallery, which is an art gallery right outside of Chambers, and they pipe the sound in. So like, if you want to move around, if you want to be noisy, if you want to take a phone call during a council meeting, you can go hang out in the gallery, and it's usually pretty empty. But, on Monday, it was And then apparently they'd put another like 40 to 60 people in the briefing chamber where council gets their weekly briefings on important things. They'd put up a live feed. Um, where you could like see and listen to the meeting and still hear like, oh, if you signed up to testify, you can hear that you're third on the list so you can leave the briefing center and come down to the chambers. And then there was another hundred people just rallying outside the building out in the freezing cold, um, just sort of continuing to carry that, that torch. And so we heard from the audio that you played that, you know, um, no hate, no fear. Immigrants are welcome here. This was a meeting that involved immigration, which is obviously one of the hottest Topics in the nation right now, and we've been doing a good bit of reporting on it. Uh, I think every reporter in town is kind of scrambling to do reporting on it. Yeah, I know, Inlander has Victor, and at the Spokesman, Alex and Emery and Monica have been kind of holding it down. And, and obviously it's in response to the Trump administration's, just the national context of the Trump administration's, um, Efforts to deport quote unquote millions of immigrants who they say are Who he characterizes as criminals, but many of whom just crossed an imaginary line that we made up, um, to find a better life for themselves. And people have been getting arrested in Spokane and taken to detention facilities by federal agents. So what was going on? Yeah. At this wild scene that you're, that you, that you just described. So there was two items on the agenda on Monday that kind of related to this. The first was pretty mundane, um, and it was a resolution to prioritize bilingual and multilingual applicants to city jobs. This didn't get a ton of press. I mentioned it in my story. Um. But I thought it was, it's, uh, one of Council Member Lily Navarrete's little babies of resolutions and it's been sort of working its way through with like edits and this was the big night to vote on it. And in celebration of both that item and the resolution, which is the big one I want to talk about, they rolled out a pilot of translation devices at the meeting. So all of Council were equipped with these little earbuds and mic packs. Um, and so if a speaker in the room spoke Spanish at the meeting. the podium, somebody would translate that into English into the earpieces for council members. And then if you wanted to attend the meeting and you needed English translation services, you could check out a recorder, like a similar pack from the table. And there was somebody sitting up in the booth who was translating the entire meeting into Spanish, from English to um, and Alex who manages the council's like DEI initiatives. Uh, told everybody about these devices, both in English and in Spanish, at the top of the meeting, so people knew that they could go get them. This one ended up not being very controversial, but I think it's really cool that it passed, so I just want to highlight it. I think it's also worth noting that Councilmember Navarrete is the first She's the first Immigrant? I want to say both the first immigrant, like first generation immigrant on council. And also the first Latina woman on council, um, which is incredible. She is, uh, she, she's been kind of quiet in her first couple months on council, I think, being very calculated about what she proposes because she can kind of be a target for people sometimes. Um, but this was like one of her first big pieces of legislation that she's moved through. So I do kind of want to, and you know, council member Michael Cathcart was a big partner on this. He's been kind of a, a champion for language access at the city and county level as well. So the two of them had kind of spearheaded this legislation, but the more controversial item was a resolution that affirmed the city's commitment to state law. So there's a called keep Washington working act and actually hedge. Your recent story on, um, The fact that ICE and Border Patrol are picking up immigrants in Spokane and then taking them across the border to Kootenai is because we have a state law that says city officials, including police officers, cannot cooperate with ICE. That also means Any, any, any Uh, any Washington state employee. State employee, yeah. That also applies to jails. So nobody at the, um, the jail in Airway Heights can cooperate with ICE either. Because it's a state prison, yeah. Yeah, so this resolution basically says, We as a city, Affirm that state law like we recommit to it We are committed to not using any of our resources to help ice. It also said we um Support doing a retraining of city employees to make sure that they're compliant with state law Uh and collecting data on like I mean, it was to collect data on any cooperation with ICE. Essentially, cooperation with ICE is illegal. So, you know, if things are going well, that that data presentation will be like, look, here's six months where we followed state law. That is, I think, hopefully what happens. But basically, I think the worry was that People are scared to call emergency services. There is a fear that law enforcement is going to help Border Patrol. And so if you're an undocumented immigrant, and you have like a medical emergency, there might be a fear that if I call 911 right now, um, for this very real emergency, and I will end up getting arrested or deported or harassed. Um, and so I think that the point of this resolution, which was championed by Latinos in Spokane and then supported by just a ton of other groups, there was a lot of solidarity behind this resolution was to, as a city show that like. We will not participate or help with these federal orders. And you can feel safe calling 9 1 1. Um, you can feel safe asking for help if you need it. And ICE will not show up because you call the cops or because you call for an ambulance. So that's, that's kind of the rationale behind, like, doing, doing this resolution. Um, but as, you know, as one of the council members who voted against it. And all this resolution is doing is saying, We're gonna follow the law. Um, essentially. Um, and, you know, implementing training programs and stuff. Which is, a little note here, City Council can actually not dictate training for staff. We have a strong Mayor City, which means that Any retraining would have to come from Mayor Lisa Brown. She would have to direct people to get trained unless they were like the couple of, I think there's like, I don't know, six to ten employees that fall under the council that they can direct training for. But this is saying that they like support a retraining. Um, and you know, Mayor Brown didn't like speak out against this resolution or anything. So I think it's, it's probably safe to say that some training will happen because of it. Um, but I do think it is worth noting the City Council cannot dictate training for staff. And I think you said there's like, four staff members for city council. Yeah, that was maybe, I feel like it's like four to ten. They have like initiative managers and, you know, like legislative assistants and clerks. Um, But I think, I think, so, so, one of the concerns I saw articulated in your piece was that this, resolution is just kind of like pro forma and, um, the conservative council member Michael Cathcart thought it might engender false hope in immigrant communities and that's the reason he voted against it. Can you explain his rationale a little bit? Yeah, I can explain it and then I'll let, uh, I have a little clip to kind of let him speak for himself. Um, Cathcart expressed a worry that if the council You know, there was a ton of people there. There was a lot of publicity around this. A bunch of groups had rallied behind this and blasted it all over social media as they, you know, well shit. Um, Cathcart was worried that people might see a news headline or see a post on social media and think Oh, the city passed this, this protection, the city reaffirmed the rights of immigrants. I might be safer than I am. Like he was worried that it might give the impression that the city was preventing ICE from doing enforcement, when what the resolution actually does is says that the city will continue to follow state law of not. Helping ICE. So like, I want to be so clear, if you call 9 1 1, ICE will not show up. This does ensure, like it doesn't, you know, that is still state law. But this doesn't stop ICE from operating in Spokane. The city can't do anything about ICE operating here, but they can choose to not help them, which is following the state law. Yes, so here is Cath Cart explaining this in his own words. And just a quick note for transparency, these council members are a little bit long winded. I cut a baby bit out of this clip just for clarity and time. And I think it's pretty clear that the administration is going to look for opportunities where there is a show. And where we are putting on a show, they are going to look to, perhaps, push back. And I'm very concerned that we are creating this immense false sense of security. There will be a headline in the Spokesman Review tomorrow or other publications, uh, about us passing this resolution. And suddenly, individuals are going to say, wow, okay, ICE is gone, it's all okay, it's clear. But that's not the case. It's a false sense of security. This resolution is not necessary for state law to be enacted or remain enacted the way it is. It's a frustrating situation where we have incredible immigrant populations in this community, refugees that mean so much, individuals that mean so much, that come out and do all kinds of things for our community, but we are risking them by putting this out there. It doesn't do anything. ICE doesn't care about our resolution. In fact, they might think the opposite. Okay, so that's what Cathcart had to say about it. On the other hand, you've got, um, you've got advocates for immigrant communities like Jennifer Mesa, the Executive Director of Latinos in Spokane, who I think has expressed something similar both to you and Luke and in social media posts about this resolution that like by taking up this resolution and you know that paired with the rally the media coverage of it people might now be more aware of their rights and of the situation where law enforcement Spokane law enforcement is safe to call, you know, emergency services are safe to call. And so I think the hope is that like the publicity and the media attention around this just reaffirms for people that it is safe to use these services. So those are the two kind of, I think, most salient arguments about the resolution. Okay. Um, you titled your story, Solidarity, If Not Sanctuary, and this seems like a reference to Washington's status as a sanctuary state, which is basically what that law does for the state of Washington. Um, a sanctuary, what is this term that's thrown out? Around like sanctuary states or sanctuary cities where the local governments don't help federal agents enforce immigration law. Um, but yeah, can you talk about like what you mean by that headline? Yeah, so I think what I was trying to capture was the heart of that debate. And that like the importance of this resolution is that it shows a solidarity with immigrant communities. Like multiple council members were telling people, even conservative council members on the council were telling people like, know your rights. Like, I think Kitty Klitschke said, like, it is patriotic to know and exercise your rights for yourself and your neighbors. It is patriotic to stand up for what you know is wrong. Um, something along those lines, it's a paraphrase. Uh, Betsy Wilkerson called it like a two and a half hour public service announcement for immigration rights. And again, there was so many different groups, like the Jewish Voice for Peace. Um, and Veterans for Peace, I think, I might be quoting these names wrong. I'm so sorry. I'm just rambling off the top of my head, but a ton of different groups that showed up and testified for this. There was a lot of solidarity around it, a lot of support and kind of resoluteness around standing with the immigrant community in Spokane. And then also that very real criticism that like being a sanctuary state or a sanctuary city Means, not nothing, because again I do think it is very much worth something that you know you can call emergency services and get help. Um, but it does mean that, like, sanctuary implies a sense of safety and security and we can't stop ICE. Uh, and then also there's a separate legal debate that I briefly touched on about the fact that sanctuary city as a term means virtually nothing. There's like, sort of an agreed upon social definition of what that is, which Hedge described. Um, but this resolution doesn't make Spokane a sanctuary city because we're just already following state law. This did nothing but say we will continue to follow state law. It didn't say, like, we are a sanctuary city. It just said we will follow state law. And there is an argument to be made that state law makes the entire state of Washington. I don't know. I think a lot of that argument is really semantic and I wanted to stay away from giving people a false sense of security about what is and isn't allowed. And I was going to play a clip of the other argument against this from the second no vote on the resolution, Jonathan Bingle, who had this very, very funny speech about Super Bowl Sunday and his family eating what he called Flergens. And then described as beef patties with lettuce and tomatoes and onions, which was all part of his grand metaphor to state that, uh, you know, you can call something by a different name, but it still is that thing. And this is like a sanctuary city resolution is the point that he was getting at. He even quoted Shakespeare, but we are about at time. Eliza, anything else to add? No, I just like sitting here and listening to you guys talk. Thank you so much for coming. Oh my gosh, thank you. I'm Erin Sellers. That's Erin Hedge. We've got Eliza Billingham across the table. And this has been Free Range, a weekly news and public affairs program presented by Range Media and produced by Range Media and KYRS Community Radio.