Welcome to the Yappy Hour, powered by Yappily, the podcast where we dive into all things dog with heart, honesty, and a whole lot of curiosity. I'm your host, Nathan Dunleavy, and today we're joined by someone whose work blends compassion. Ethics and emotional intelligence in a truly powerful way. Maya Badham is the founder and CEO of S-A-H-S-D-A, a qualified advisor in sexual and domestic abuse, and the creator of the partnership. Planet model, a framework for how we live with our dogs in genuine partnership. Today's conversation isn't about training methods or obedience, it's about connection. It's about what real partnership looks like between dogs and humans. And honestly, it's an outlook I think we all need to hear. So grab a cup of tea, settle in, and let's get started.

Welcome back to The Yappy Hour, powered by Yappily. I'm your host, Nathan Dunleavy, and I'm so excited to bring you another episode of The Yappy Hour Today. Even more excited that we've got the amazing Maya Badam joining us. Welcome Maya, to the Yappy Hour. How are you doing today?

well. Thank you for just staying. It's a bit, it's a bit warm and Polly today, but other than that I'm absolutely fine. Thank you. How are you?

It is very, yeah, I'm okay. It is very warm. I'm often a sweaty betting myself, so

in it together.

don't worry. We're in it together. That's it. So Maya, your background going into our first section all about meeting Maya, your background is incredibly unique. Could you tell us a bit more about your journey and what led you to, to create the Partnership, planet, planet model, please.

So. I think it unique's probably a good word actually. Because my background

I love that word.

Or a bit off, off the wall. I I didn't necessarily start out in the animal world. I've kind of made my way to it and I think, well, I mean, everyone's journey is unique in, in some respects, isn't it? But I definitely didn't have a traditional route into, animal and the dog specific world. So my background's in human kind of support and emotional support for those who've experienced trauma normally within a, a, a domestic abuse lens. And I worked with

Mm

quite a lot. So I worked with kind of anyone over plus and worked with some older, older people as well, and some vulnerable people, so you have additional needs

mm Mm.

I got my dog in 2019, so I've been working in that sector for over 10 years. I think I entered in 20, living around 20. 13, I started volunteering alongside my my degrees and then I went into qualifying as an independent support worker before then moving into education and training, so delivering training on kind of trauma-informed practice delivering some of the big national training to statutory organizations like policing and social services. And then I moved

Oh, okay.

in 2019 and I got my dog. So we talk about

Oh,

now. I a I got him eight weeks old and he's my first dog as an adult. So we had dogs growing out. We fostered dalmatians when I was younger. My parents did and my family did, and I've always loved animal. I actually wanted to be a

mm

I reached GCC and I was

oh wow.

good at maths. so,

Same.

but it's really weird how life. Shunts you sometimes into something that you think doesn't relate and then you kind of come back to it in a

Yes,

way. Because doing what I do now, I really feel like this is what I was meant to do. And I, I don't, I think it's quite rare sometimes that you have, that you meet that kind of purpose in life that you are meant to do. And,

definitely,

PAD

definitely.

so he just turns,

I love it.

a border colleague.

What pre does? Pod? Oh, border Collie? Yes.

face border and I got that, I sorry for another time that how I got him was a bit unusual as well. But what I realized when I got him someone who is neurodivergent is very kind of a stressy person, so I was watching him, you know,

Mm-hmm.

puppy. Just, just loving life. And I was just thinking to myself, you know, is he doing that? What is he thinking? How can I give him the best life stressing that I wasn't giving him the best? You know, kind of maybe being a bit of a helicopter parent, to be

I know. Yeah. I'm, I, I've been a bit like that in the past.

it's and is actually quite stressful, you know, having a, I think it is something that we underestimate if it is our

We do.

as well, having one. And he just was amazing and so interesting and so much of the work that I'd already done with young adults and those who experienced trauma, even though when I got him, you know, he was fresh, so he hadn't, you know, had, nothing had happened to him or yeah. I was using a lot of those same skills and mindset of accepting him for who he was, listening to him respecting his kind of boundaries. I realized quite quickly that that was actually quite unusual, because I then entered the dog world. You know, at first the Facebook kind of groups and then

Go Cup.

and you are just, you'll just receive such a massive, a load of information, different places, different people, different countries. The algorithm, you know, you are looking at one thing and then it, it kind of pushes you into another thing. It's saying something completely the opposite. it was really You know, I, I, I raised project on my own as a single pouring, as I like to say.

Oh wow.

navigating it on my own, at beginning, which is, yeah, it's so full on. And I was really lucky when I got him. I was in a break. I, I'd just finished a job I'd, I'd moved and I had about four weeks until I started the, the, the, the next job. So I actually had a period of time

Oh, okay.

just had to

That's good.

So I spent the time

Mm

reading everything I could sifting all of that information that I was, you know, being bombarded with through that internal moral lens, my values who I am as a person,

mm

I view the world in the,

mm.

of sensient beings that we, we live with. And so I was, it was quite easy in some respects to out the bits that I would more align with and reject the bits that I didn't align with so much. then through that kind of exploration is when I, you know, started to engage with some of them more well known behaviourists. I'm very lucky that I look my local down the road behaviourist, Tricia Hollingshead. She offered, like,

Oh yeah, I know the name.

a free, kind of consultation thing for young puppies and I took Podrick and now we're friends because we live, you know, pretty much next door to each other. And yeah, her book's great. The listen to me exploring the emotional life of your dog. So shameless plug, not, she's not told me to do that, but it's a fabulous,

Oh, I don't, we, I love a plug on here. You, you plug away.

it's a fabulous book and it did, it, it wasn't published when I first got public, but it's really solidified my understanding and kind of body language behaviour in that emotional, you know, the key in the title of that is the emotional life of the Animal and the Dog.

Yeah.

That's really where the partnership planet the compliance and the partnership planet was born. Because there are two sides of the, you know, a paradigm shift model is that we currently, lots of people live on this compliance planet. So that is rooted in obedience, rooted in control, rooted in what I want you to do as the dog, rather than asking is that something that benefits them? Is that something that they want to do? And I modeled it

Mm

that work that I've had done working with domestic abuse survivors and and understanding perpetrator mentality. And so I adapted it because the planets aren't for those who intentionally harm or intentionally want control. It's for people that have been told through that. Societal myths, societal pressure and stereotypes. What it means to live with a dog, what it means to love a dog. And unfortunately for want of a better word, dominant paradigm is the one that most people, currently sit under. And it's the one that you are vulnerable to when you are entering that world for the

Yeah.

So I originally wrote the

Yeah.

for myself because I was by this time engaging with a serious amount of information. You know, I was reading proper behaviour books, you know, not just. You know the kind of training books. And then I went and I did courses and qualification to learn more about the kind of canine psychology and behaviour. And the more I did that, the more I realized how similar it is to the children's stuff that I was doing. So a lot of it was basically just the child stuff rewritten and rep repackaged for dogs. So that was really interesting. So, so it was, the model was a way of sifting for me and then putting it other visual learners. So putting that all of it into one place. If you look at the planet model, you'll see the amount of references on it is quite massive and

Mm.

because I've taken, I mean they're not, nothing in the planets are new, it's just a new visual aid. All of it is rooted in other people's, what other people have brought to the table. And I think one of the unique things

Yeah.

interdisciplinary and we need to have that interdisciplinary and intersectional lens. We're going to have progress. So that's the beauty of not just looking at something in a silo, but looking at a range of voices from across the country, across the world, across sectors and professions and trying then to say, Hey, this might be a little bit a piece of the puzzle that might help someone else who just

Yeah.

Google and just gets contradictory information.

It's raft of info, just, yeah. It's crazy, isn't it? Yeah. Oh, I love that. Thank you. So what was the moment you realized this framework was needed, Maya?

Do you, if it was a, a specific moment or just that journey that I've

No.

a little bit, is that,

Yeah,

to make sense of how a roadmap for, so I knew my aim was to make sure that my dog had the best life he could possibly have. I didn't really know what that meant.

I like what you said.

Sorry.

I like what you said by roadmap as well. That's a good analogy. Roadmap like that.

You know, so I didn't know what that meant. So I knew in my fault that's what I wanted to give. But so many

Mm.

think that they're giving that, and actually what they are doing is the compliance plan. So that's the kind of conflict that, you know, I had when I was trying to figure everything out. And I think that a lot of other people have is that their internal drive is good. It's rooted in care and love and compassion, but that the methodology, and I don't just mean by kind of training or tools by that, but I just mean the method that in which we interact with dogs and life is sadly rooted in just a history of, maybe, you know, not a good understanding of the emotional life, or maybe not even that an acknowledgement. First of all, that they are emotional

Yeah.

and that they have a right to that choice and agency and respect from us. Because so often what we see is

Yeah.

a thinly bailed or sometimes not thinly bailed for respect. And that's why it is so similar

Yes.

some of the work that I was doing in the domestic abuse world because perpetrators in that

Yeah, I bet.

unbridled, unadulterated respect from the people and often animals that they interact with.

Mm,

and unfortunately I love all of the kind of, you know, Kim Bro's leg stuff. 'cause she talks about the dog as a captive

yes.

being. And I think we start to, need to start reframing that in our minds when we are thinking about how we live and love dogs is, is thinking this animal. We've come so far in even a hundred year history of, you know, developmental and evolution in terms of ourselves and how we live is so different. Yet our animals haven't had that, kind of time really. So I think, you know, and again, I'm just, you know, this isn't new what I'm seeing, but kind of that labeling of behavioural issues. So on the, on the compliance planet, you see this kind of good, bad continuum that Andy Hale talks about quite a lot, you know, is that we don't have any grace for our animals. We're either good or bad, there's no room the range of emotional life that we have even on a daily basis. As human beings, we seem to have, we seem to know that we have, you know, sometimes we wake up. Maybe, you know, we stepped it in the wrong way. So our neck's a little bit in pain, so we're a little bit grumpy. We go downstairs, we have our coffee per us off a little bit. We might take some ibuprofen. And then for those of you who exercise, 'cause I'm not one of those people, but some people might go for a run or something and then that also

I am.

them, you know, that sp spikes memory.

I am not that person either.

as an, you know, as an example, it spikes there, them up a bit more. And and then they might have a really productive morning. And then in the afternoon maybe they get some bad news and their mood comes down. And we seem to recognize that in ourselves. we don't allow our animals and our, and dogs especially to have that range of emotions. We want 'em to just be, fit that box all of the time. And it does a disservice.

I know

to them and to us and our relationship. And they tolerate it 'cause they're amazing.

They are. Yeah. We don't wanna fit 'em all into a box 'cause everyone's different and unique and that's what makes us all special and, and particularly them. I just wanna put a little side note here that my dogs are barking in the background so it wouldn't be the yappy hour without having some yappy dogs. Sometimes they're with my husband downstairs if I'm recording. So we may or may not edit them out. It depends. But,

I think Them.

but today they are. Yeah, today they are with me and they are like some, I, I do sometimes leave them downstairs if my husband's not home, but then they kind of would bark if they were left downstairs. But now they've probably heard something and they're barking in the background. So yes, this.

in a way, you know, with the barking, because is such a classic

Okay.

contact behaviour and, and trainers for. You know, goes back to that

Yes.

barking as an annoyance with humans. So we find it.

What's communication to them, isn't it?

it's their voice. You know, in terms of,

Yeah.

The sounds that they make. Obviously they talk through a range of different, body movements and things, but barking is, is a natural thing. And then when you look at breathe, obviously that can also fluctuate depending on breath. And I think why the, with the partnership plan, and it's not, the partnership plan isn't about saying, okay, let your dog continuously bark for hours because you have to balance your human right to pee with their right to you know, have a voice and bark. So it's about, it's looking for those reasons, isn't it? So is there an unmet need? Are they barking for a purpose? So if someone goes past the window or a, the postman or the post

It's normally what it is for these lot. Someone's gone past the front door.

so and so for my own dog, he's not very barking at all, but he will bark, you know, especially if he's deeply asleep and say the post comes, he will. Startle bark, basically, which makes complete sense.

Yeah.

some people would then respond with you know, sharply tell them to shut up or, you know, in some way. But really for Podrick, I just let him and he, he, once he feels fulfilled, normally less than a minute, he will just be like, okay, nothing's happening. Nothing to worry about. I won't bark anymore. And I know like that's not the case for every single dog. But

Well, they, they were bred for a reason to bark, to alert you to oncoming dangers, so they're just letting you know, aren't they?

I just thank, I just say thank you, you know this is why like, you know, some of Kim's bro, these stuff, you know her hacks, because sometimes it's just

Yes.

communicate back. So I always, you know, thank, thank him and I thank him in a, know. In a really neutral voice or 'cause you don't want him to add arou or, so I'm not like, thank you. He say, oh,

No,

you very much. You know, and then I'll explain, oh, they've gone now, you know, did, or you know, you say let's do something else

I love all that.

and it's, it's, that comes quite naturally to me. But I think it's about acknowledging that doesn't come naturally to other people. And that's where,

Mm.

be a progressing, but it's so interesting is the human you know, how we are raised as human beings. How, what we believe in our values and our lessons that we learn influences how much of our, we interact with our our animals. And I think until we improve that, our own emotional regulation, our own understanding of parenting, so until we get a better relationship with children. Not only, you know, in, in a individual household sense, but as a society-wide country sense. I don't, I think we're only ever gonna be able to go so far with the, our animals, especially our dogs, because still have such a what's the, what's the word? Like that power, that adult ation type way of interacting with even children. So until that, that improves, I think is an uphill battle. Really?

Yeah. Yeah, agree. And another little plug for Kim, bro, in a book, meet Your Dog. It's an amazing book for people. If you haven't read it yet. I was glued to it for ages.

I think I listen to that.

Brilliant. So what's that, sorry?

to that one on Audible or one of the old

Yeah, yeah. I, I remember taking it away with me on, on holiday and I read it and I couldn't fill it down. Brilliant. So moving on to our next section. So we may have touched on this a little bit already, but it's all about understanding the partnership planet model. So what is it in just a brief nutshell, Maya?

So I think earlier on when I said roadmap and, and, and you said you like that word, I

Yes. Love that.

is in, not the whole picture. So that's why the references there, like, please, you know, use it to go and seek further information. And I think that's part of it, is need to invest in that education to fully be able to put the partnership planet into action, into like meaningful action. But essentially it's a framework that it's almost like the perfect. Idea of what a relationship would be. And I think in a way, so obviously, and I will say the partnership, the the Planet model a change is edited fairly regularly because the amount that we're learning about the world Animals world int

Mm. Forever evolving.

vol evolving. And I'm not ever

Mm.

say, we strive for perfection, but we never, I don't think we're ever, we ever get there. So my, with the planet model, it's more about showing there is a different way, we're not always gonna do it.

Mm

right. but it's about,

mm

that roadmap, that guidance to how can we get better? an improvement

mm.

really. And what it does is it categorize that

Yeah.

shift that we are seeing in certain areas. But what we want is a societal shift. That paradigm shift from looking. Beyond training, looking beyond compliance and obedience to a relationship that's rooted in compassion and connection and consent. All the seeds, and, and and understanding of what it means to be a dog. Truly be a dog and love a dog and fulfill that dog's needs in the environment that we currently have set up. That's kind of what it is,

Yeah. A couple of things there is that, obviously the saying like, oh, nobody's perfect. Well, per being perfect's boring. And a slight sort of comparison, although quite different with my mentees. I say pro progress is better than perfection. I'd rather they just make progress to their sort of end goals rather than trying to be perfect all the time. You know, there's no point. Just take the pressure on just as long as you're making some progress. So what.

as well. So this is all taken from the children child development stuff. So like, if you are not perfect and you do something that you feel is wrong, you didn't feel like that you handled that situation with your dog as well as you could. are arguably the most forgiving speech we have. So the good news is that we can repair that, which is called a rupture. So you know, when that, that attach all, that bond has a rupture there, the partnership planet

Okay.

just about saying, you must do it this way all of the time. It's like, if there is a blip, it is a way of that blip and a way of also use it with yourself. So if we are saying, you need to do this with your dog, be accepting, understand, and love them for who they are, take the pressure off and all of that, you need to do it with ourselves. So it's okay, not, not, you know, to have slipups sometimes, like you said, we're all human. But finding our way back to that. Is, is, is don't let that kind of shun you off into then that into compliance plan. And I think that's one of the farthest things about, you know, I said about education and that investment to look at the compliance and partnership plan. It, it, need to have critical self-reflection skills. You need to be comfortable being uncomfortable and saying, because lots of people have read the planet. And deeply confronting sometimes because one of the things I've

Mm.

lots of people think they're on partnership planet. They're actually on compliance planet. And that disconnection is quite, like I said, quite confronting for peoples to realize, actually I'm doing it this, but I'm not. So for a classic example

Mm-hmm.

I'm gonna say it, although you know, this is why I get a bit anxious 'cause people sometimes think it's around like the training, the training that we do. So with, even when you use positive training and you use treats, it can still be rooted in the compliance mindset. So if so, the

I Now I can complete.

yeah. So if the dog doesn't wanna do something and you learn them to do it, you are, that's comply, that's you. They're not doing it out of a choice. Or sometimes you will do

I completely understand.

rather than internally, is this something that they want to do? So you sometimes see that quite a lot with the sport arena type things. And so really when you read things like that and you think, oh God, that's what I've been doing, it's natural as human beings to go, actually, no, I'm not a bad person. whole point of to subvert those labels. The good bad, the good bad continuum where you are only good or you are only bad. It doesn't serve as humans. It doesn't serve our dogs. And, and so that's, that's kind of the, the, the, a little bit of the tricky thing with the planets is you need to go into them with a mindset that, it may not match what you think are doing kind of thing.

Yeah, caring of an open mind.

exactly.

Why did you choose the planetary metaphor and what does it help people feel or see differently?

Yeah, it's an interesting one. I wanted something round. Because originally it was a wheel because the the power and control wheels, which they referenced on the, on the planet model, they were kind of the, the spark of inspiration. So not a, they're not a, a copy in any way, shape or form, but they're referenced as the kind of inspiration because like I said, wheel model is in domestic abuse. That's all about intentional harm and, and, and cruel to towards other people in that sense. And so made sense to kind of have the elements kind of in that circle with the the reason, the motivating factor in the middle. So that's why it was originally wheel then I moved to planet and I think planet probably does fit better because from a visual and a kind of a cognitive. Where do I fit? I think having planets is, is easier and like, and then I described the little bit as a black hole. So like I just said then some people, so people that own are on Compliance Planet and they're on that planet almost firmly on it. They might jump to Partnership Planet for bits, but go back to compliance. Not many people are wholly on

mm.

planet because like, we're still learning all the time around it, but lots of people spend most of their time on a partnership planet and then they might fall into compliance planet. Those people that are kind of trying to do a mashup of both just, you know, just because that's who they are and how they act, they kind of fall in the middle that that black hole, that middle part where they're not really on compliant, wholly on compliance or wholly on partnership. but it really, the planets, the, in terms of the shape of them came from that idea of. It's like a, I think maybe just my visual ease kind of point that I'm either here or there.

Mm.

I think that was really

Yeah.

me capable, I think

Yeah. Brilliant. Who is the model four Maya dog professionals, guardians, or both?

good question. I mean, when I wrote them, I was, you know, like I said to you, I'm not, I'm not a qualified behaviourist. I'm not a, I'm not a trainer. It's not my area of expertise at all. And so I wrote

Mm-hmm.

for myself as a parent, a dog parent, to

Mm.

make sense of the world. I think therefore they do, they are quite useful for parents, but I think anyone can, can, can look at them and use them. I think for professionals it's still really useful to look at them. Because that is sometimes, and so I have had some professionals use them in sessions with clients. So therefore it,

Okay.

a

That's

can use, the kind of, that the client can take away. They can you know, have a read of it and an understanding of it and it can help, support what you are teaching. Especially if you are kind in that

Hmm.

Space and positive training space or behaviour space. It can help them to understand what you are saying in a, in a way.

Mm.

but also some professionals are on compliance plan, so it's also useful for them to kind of

Yeah.

examine internally where do I sit and, and am I practicing what I preach and that kind of thing as well.

Yes.

anyone

Yeah. No, I love that. Absolutely love that. Brilliant. Thank you so much. We're gonna be moving on to our next section, which is all about a new way of coexisting with our dogs. One of the things that stood out to me in the model is the emphasis on co-regulation and autonomy. Why are those so important in human dog relationships

I think it's not even just about human dog relationships, I think it's just relationships for salt because

in general? Hmm.

we don't have that mutual respect, tolerance for other beings, generally you're not gonna have a solid foundation for a positive relationship. Regardless of who who they are. And I think, you know, I touched on earlier about like a co-regulation. You know, unless we are regulated ourselves, it's kind of, a lot of it is taken from that gentle parenting. With children and on

Hmm.

Profession kind of what I used to do when I worked with young adults is, how can you be fully, how can you expect someone to, to trust you and be fully invested in you if you are not able to be fully present and whole with them? So really it's and I mean, that's what a lot of the behaviours do, isn't it? They're not just working with the dog, they're working with that whole family. And that's what my

Yes. Yeah.

when I'm working in, in animals and the, and the abuse side of things is what I want is for animals to be included within a whole family, what we call a whole family, and a whole systems approach to ending kind of violence, violence and abuse towards everyone. And I think the planets kind of speak to that in the same way, is that holistic, whole person, whole animal, person centered, dog centered approach. You, you can't ask for something you're not willing to give. It's not a, a relationship rooted in equality, you know, or any form of equity if you, if you transactionally based climate relationship. So

mm

important.

Love that. Could you give an example of what a partnership based response might look like versus a more conventional one?

So we touched on, you know, that barking example is quite a good, good example.

Yeah,

I often also use is and it all comes down to having that understanding of dogs as a species and then dogs, your individual dog, which is why love their legs model so much because, you know Kimbro's Legs talks about the learning in the environment, genetics and south of the, of the dog, which makes.

I am glad you explained what they all were, because I thought we better do that.

Yeah, exactly. And that's like who that your dog is as an individual. Because you know, there will be breed traits, there will be history and all of this, but that self, that x is so important. 'cause that is your dog's personality. So even so I'm thinking about my own dog. So one of nine puppies. And very lucky in that we've seen some of the other puppies, you know, grow up and, and how they, and they all had the same environment, so they had the same and dad. There would be slight differences in, how they were raised because no one is even sibling. So even if you're a twin, slightly different ways. Your experiences are still different. So that's your e in the environment. But they had, you know, fairly similar early life experiences. And yet. Project is uniquely him. And I can, and, and what I find wild, I dunno why I find it wild, because it's, it's the same with human families, but like he look all his siblings, you can like see their mom and dad and them really clearly. So they have really clear, facial structure, facial bits that look exactly really strong facial re you know, resemblance to their families. And yet he as himself is so unique to him and, and it's just so interesting and important for that that dog. So in terms of going back to the, what a partnership based response made like that. So the one I use the most is around, say you get a like a dash round or a Terri Breed that's like historically to dig. You put that dog in a house with, you know, like a, you know, a general pet home. They don't have any intention of doing any kind of original sports or whatever the animal bread books. And then that dog digs up the rose bushes or that dog, you know, goes on an adventure, tunneling under the, under the fence or something like that. And then we get really annoyed with that. And we say, so, you know, it's a bad dog. It's a bad dog because he's doing these things that really annoys and my prize rose bushes are now mulch. And so a really simple solution to that from a partnership point of view is the dog is clearly displaying a knee, has a need to dig, which is rooted in probably genetics. So that g the environment in that at the moment, that's the only place that he can do, and then also the self. So. Another good example of that is Podrick. So PO's a border Collie. He is the most Unor collie, border Collie, most people I've ever met. So he's very

Really,

He, he doesn't make loads of exercise. He is a complete couch potato. He is very gentle. He doesn't chase, he doesn't, you know, he is very not heard at all. And

God is so uncharacteristic for the

And, and that's him. That's him, that's who he is. So, so,

His personality.

if I quickly finish off the story with the dash, and I'll go back to pod dripping his at end point. So he so then for example, it would just be a case of giving them a place that they are allowed to dig or, you know, a sand pit or an outlet

Yeah.

way that they're allowed

Yeah.

fulfill that need and therefore that behaviour issue longer it to exist. So,

Yeah.

poverty, I decided, so I got here I thought there's, there's a person down the road who did. Kind of sheep trials and this trying, I thought, oh, that seems like a really fun to do with a conwell. And she just said to me like, oh, I'm not worried that he's like, wants to attack the sheep. He's just not naturally very good. You know, he just didn't have the natural ability. And I know you have the teaching element to it, but I could have forced him. So I could say, well, I want the dog, there's a trialing dog,

Yeah.

keep doing this and I'm going to train him to the of his life to do it and do it well. And he probably would because he's likes to make me happy like a lot of the dog, you know, and they're, you know, historically that's why they're so successful as a companion animal. So I could have made him, but would that have benefited him? Would that have made our relationship better or would that have compromised his view of me and his trust of me? You know, that's a question that we need to be asking that historically we haven't. asking,

Yeah, there's a, it is more benefiting you than the dog isn't there and we want to be doing things for them, don't we? Rather than for our egos?

ego thing. Dogs do not care about winning and ribbons, and I'm not saying that they don't like just to cat

No, the fuss.

off over in case they get the sports people come and ask, but you know, there are, there are dogs out there. You watch them do, sports and they'd really rather not be, you can tell by they they're doing

Yeah.

they've been asked to by someone that they love and I just can't think of a, a worse mis,

I.

of trust sometimes than the ignoring of them and their autonomy, like their agency, their, their wishes. We would, if we, should, as a society be questioning that when we do it with humans. I don't think we're quite even there yet with some, some of that so I can understand why dogs are behind. But these that is, is what the plants are about is like having curiosity, fostering curiosity, questioning our motivation that all of that. And it's

Mm

It's really, really hard work.

mm

And so some people will just

Yeah.

it.

Yeah, yeah. Brilliant. So you describe it as moving from ownership in inverted comm to stewardship in inverted comm. What does that mind shift mean in everyday life? Maya.

Yeah. So I think I'll briefly summarize it 'cause I think, you know, all of, just all those examples of Be Scare are really good examples of, of exactly that. It's

Definitely.

Agency autonomy. It's about guiding. The dog and having a conversation with the animal you know, not a kind of in English necessarily or in human word, but,

I wish.

It's, it's like, they rely on us for so much. So it's not about saying, oh, let's just them complete free reign. So 'cause sometimes it's misconstrued as well, you just have no boundaries then. You just let them, you do whatever they want. Well, if

No. Yeah, we can.

there's a safety element there, responsibility element there, there's definitely a legal element to curb any of that. But I think as far as possible, it's about those questioning. So active listening, respecting when they say no, they don't And if they, if they have to do it because it's a medical or it's, it's making sure that we do it in a way that as far as possible. Respect their, their holistic being and their, their fear, and you know who they are. And that's essentially what it is.

yeah, and from speaking to various people that I have done on this podcast, but I am starting to see like the shift more and I'm hearing like the words choice, consent, and you know, the dog, what was the other one? Choice, consent agency. We're starting to see more of a, more of shift, aren't we to that way, thankfully.

I think. Well, I hope so. I hope

Bye bye.

deeply hope so. But I think those of us who are already kind of doing it and asking those questions, we sit in a little bubble. when you poke your head out of that bubble, it's still not great.

Well no, I know.

which you set for Shane. Yeah. And I just hope you know, the, the planets that conversation then.

Oh, most definitely. Thank you so much for that. So, moving on to our next section, which is all the personal side dogs as partners and not projects. Have there been any dogs in your life Maya, who have helped shape or challenge this model for you personally at all?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I mean, Podrick Podrick is, is my life now, you know, in terms of having that dog centric life is definitely, for me. And he was a big inspiration for the, the planet really, because, I mean, he just taught me so much. And I mean, that's a whole podcast in of itself is didn't I learn from project? It's the better question, isn't it? It is. It just changed my life. Know I wouldn't be like my organization wouldn't exist. My, like, being asked to do this wouldn't happen. You know, he, he Yeah, he's just the center of everything. I do have a cat and I do love him because she, she's actually sat, where is she? She's up there somewhere and I always talk about po

you

I feel

did mention about

cat thing. No one thinks I love my, I do love Michael a lot. And

what's, what's your cat called?

strudel

Stu. I love it. And do they get on? Okay.

yeah, they do. They're not best friends, but they are happily coexisting in a non,

Her existing.

environment. And that is all that I wanted really for for them because she's a new issue edition and she joined in September last year after,

Oh, so she came after. 'cause normally people have cats then get dogs from what I've seen.

quadri. And so he had grown up with, with the cats and then sadly, you know, the time both my cats passed, passed away

I,

and, and then, then I got the strudel was a rescue. And I mean, strudels taught me so much as well as she, she, in fact, I put a poster up So the difference between getting podrick as a puppy, our kind of bond was almost instantaneous because he was really young. And

mm Mm.

dogs are naturally well pods anyway, like very naturally what's the word? Not, he just was so dogs were bred to be around us, so they're very US focused,

Yeah,

are like

they are

kind of more,

more leaf.

more, yeah, a, I mean none of my cats have been El elite of than Olympics, but but dogs naturally gravitate in that kind of way. So. Getting strudel and even my caps that I had before, I had them as kittens. So again, that bond was kind of formed fairly easily with strudel as a rescue. What I know, I even put a ghost button today. What I noticed with her is it's taken 10 months to that

Really?

Yeah. Because this is the assumption that we have is like, oh, we bring an animal into our lives. They should owe us something, or they should love us immediately, or they should trust us immediately, even as puppies or, or, or,

Nah.

animals. And so she's really taught me that it's about earning on both sides. Obviously I liked her a lot. That's why I rescue, that's why I connected with, we had a connection because obviously. Well, I chose her, but she didn't run away when I tried to, but brought her home and, you know, she, she, I, I, I made her hide in place and she hit her, you know, at least about 24 hours. And it's really taken her as someone, she obviously had existing trauma because she, she'd been torn away from her home. She'd been at the restroom for four months. She'd now been taken to a new place with smells and a weird person who didn't know yet. And so, and now she's, she's very lene. She, you know, she comes downstairs now and it really was a process have bought her like lots of people get, get, get an animal and they just kind of plunk it in the middle of the, the house. They have access to the whole of the house immediately, all the other animals come and they're like, oh, who's this? New person, dog, animal, whatever. And some animals cope quite well with that. But the majority struggle with that because, and I know I would if like some strangers around at me suddenly and thought it would be scary, right? taught me loads in terms of nerve and trust and mutual understanding everything, but po but podrick really, really, really something sparked in me. I guess I, I think the more I learn about kind of that applied pathology, I really believe that some people have a genetic switch around dogs that like turns on and just have an additional thing. We just, there's just, there's just layers to it, isn't it? 'Cause the way we

Yeah.

is just so different to kind of the average, know, in terms of like, if I'm going, everything's planned around. But

Yeah.

me, think something around challenging expectations and sometimes our expectations have to change and like, that's okay. So when I

Yes.

got him,

Yeah.

and I didn't get him for a reason. It was, it was an a companion thing. It wasn't anything other than that. But when I got him, I would just come out of frontline support work with survivors. I was very unwell mentally from that. And, and I

Gosh.

oh, you know, he would be good to meet, you know, he gets me out, gets me out of the house. He gets me, you know,

Good for your mental health.

going to the cafe or whatever. But it he turned one during the first lockdown. So a lot

Wow.

his kind of adolescence was in a period where we couldn't go. To a c We couldn't go to a pub garden. We couldn't go to these places. and he'd also had some negative interactions with other dogs. So he then became quite fearful of other dogs, which presented in kind of a reactive response. So he can, he had his dog friends,

Mm.

can make new dog friends. But he needs it to be slow and he needs to be able to process, which I think is very reasonable to be honest with you.

Definitely.

he'd been ran at, at speed by the dog's friendly, the friendly part dog. But he

Oh gosh.

cope with it. He's quite sensitive and it's scary. Like I just think people don't, don't, if you think if I was walking around and then some two people ran at me that I didn't know, and then when

Bye.

space touching me, you know, kind of going behind me,

I'd pay my pants.

he would be really, really scary. And that is, that can be traumatic and that can have a lifelong lasting impact, as it did

Yeah.

So I had to then critically examine my expectations and go, he's never ever going to be a pub garden dog. would be a great pug garden

Hmm.

there weren't other dogs. So he's absolutely, you know, sound in, in, in all other areas, but, and I think that's probably the, the biggest lesson I've had and the biggest lesson from the planet is. That question, are we doing it because we want them to do it or are we doing it because it serves them in some way? Do they actually want to do it? Because, you know, now I go to cafes and I go to go to the pub where with my friends without pod, and I see dogs there, like I said, don't want to be there. They ask

Yeah, I know what you mean.

so blind

Yeah,

they just, they want that, so

they are.

make that, it, it, it's, it's, it's it's disturbing in some regards, just how little regard we give to the center. life over another. We're being

And like, and they're not defending those people in in any way, but because they're not in the industry that we are, they may not necessarily know 'cause they dunno what we don't know.

the model It says unintentional. Because It's not intentional. Like there's no question that the people on Compliance planet love their dogs. It's not a question about love, it's just a question about blindness and ignorance that isn't intentionally looking. But that's just how we're brought, how we are brought up. The societal messaging we get around dogs and living with dog walk. That's what

Yeah,

is. Yeah.

just I. Need to reframe it and look at different, I think we might have answered the next question in terms of what summit a dog taught you when you least expected it. But yeah, with that we sort of did that in a roundabout way with, with what we were saying previously. And I wanted to just add in here as well, is that I think sometimes dogs come into our life for a reason and they, you know, they may find us when we are not necessarily looking or. They've come, they come to help us. But like, it's funny 'cause a lot of people I speak to, like I was a bit of a late bloomer with dogs, I'm not gonna lie. Like everyone's like, oh yeah, like dogs had 'em since I was a baby and I grew up with 'em and just, you know, and all this like, and we didn't have like dogs as a family. Like my, my nan always had dogs, so I, I was around them, but we didn't have them with my, my parents. And it wasn't until I hit 30, so just over 10 years ago now that I got my first dog as an adult, because I'd, I was, I was living with my I husband at the time and we just got a house together and it was the ILE time. As soon as we got this house within two weeks, I knew I wanted to get a dog because I'd lived in a flat and I'd gone traveling or whatever. And I got this dog and then like this obsession grew because 10 years late, we've now got bloody seven. So I, like, I, I couldn't imagine my life without, and also I, you said something about. You know, you, you plan your lifetime. Like we've got an SA dog as well, and like we do plan our life around him because of his sa It's just, just the way it is, I'm afraid. So that, and that's okay. That's okay. Yeah. So moving on to our next section and you know, dealing with behaviour challenges through a partnership lens. So we're just gonna sort of touch on this briefly and stuff. So lots of people listening will have dogs that pull on a lead. We've mentioned barking at the door, the postman or can't settle alone. How would the partnership planet Lens help someone navigate those kind of struggles? Maya,

Yeah, so I think we have, we have. First of all, it's a questioning of is this a behavioural issue or is this an unmet need? Is this a seeking of

mm-hmm.

Is this something else? Because you can't train safety, you have to kind of be safe, that it has to be a whole environment and a, and a connection for there to be that behavioural change. And so I'm not saying that we get rid of training, 'cause I think training has a place, but I think it's training and it's, and that we are missing quite a lot of the time. So what is that whole environment for that whole dog and that whole family? So, and there are so many factors that go into that, isn't it? And the partnership planet just encourages people to take that pressure off, take that labeling off. And instead look a little bit under the surface. I think that's how it can kind of help and it's designed to be used. I think, you know, I mentioned earlier about when we talked about who's, who are the planets for. You know, you can use the planets alongside a really great behaviour plan or your behaviour risk that you are working with or your chain that you're working with. If they're aligned to it, if they're not, they probably won't like it. but it's, it's a good additional metaphorical values type evaluation than, than an actual teaching of. How to stop much. We ask how to stop, stop, stop, stop. Rather than what can we do action wise, you know? You know, also prevention, like early intervention and prevention. It's obviously in the, in the abuse world, that's where we focus on, because I don't want to be supporting a survivor. I don't want there to be survivors to support. So

Yeah.

and early intervention that, that, the planets help with that quite a lot is,

Yeah.

that, that guide and suppose

Don't they say the saying it goes prevention's better than the cure? Is that what they say? People say,

Yeah. Yeah.

I'm obviously a qualified dog trainer, but I'm not actively practicing in as a dog trainer day-to-day at the moment. But I think we're even coming away from the word training as well, because it's quite militant and regimental really. And I think we are starting to see a shift away from that word, which I like,

Yeah. That's why we talk obviously about that stewardship, that guidance that it's not about like not giving them

educate, educating, or educator.

that, like we said, that balance has to be there. Like you have to be able to live your life alongside your dog. So your dog shouldn't, there shouldn't be a hierarchy of the dog is now over you and you are all you are. There should just be, and there's never gonna be true equality because there's a power dynamic because we have so much control over everything. You know, when our dog eats, where they eat, how much they eat, what they, the brand of the food that they eat,

This is true.

So with that, and it's not about saying, oh, that's bad. It's about saying where can we give some sort of agency and choice in this kind of, at the minute, this choiceless goldfish bowl is what I

Mm

and, and that,

I like that.

that is what it is. Kind

Yeah.

how can we inter into space that kind of more clinical that we're living in with more joy and more

Hmm.

to be who they are, which is a dog, you know, that doginess that we love so

Hmm.

but yet we seem to intent on removing. It's a really, really weird cognitive dissonance thing. It's like we want a dog, but we don't want them to be too doglike. It's, we want a dog. We don't want a dog that barks and we don't want a dog that digs and we don't want a dog that smell. We

It's like, it's like you are on your cake and eating it. Like,

exactly.

Yeah, unfortunately that word control is quite a negative type word, isn't it? You know, I'm not a fan of control. What does support look like, Maya, when it's rooted in partnership?

Yeah, on the partnership plan there's four different, four different sections and there's benevolent guidance, understand impact of negative experiences, canine responsive practice, and appreciate individuality. And I'm not gonna go through all of the detail because we'll be here for a while, but, and, and obviously they, they're free access and

that's

how

okay.

them, but it's a free access resource. But those four things are really at the core of what good support would look like. So, you know, accepting the dog personally as an emotional being is kind of the central core value that to be on partnership planet you have to have. So that's the kind of key one,

Mm

So that's not just how we communicate with them, but understanding how they communicate with us. So having some sort of understanding of

mm

language and behaviour.

Yeah. Big on that.

it is rooted in what we've talked about already, so acceptance of where the dog is at and the limitations. So yes. We could get, say for example with Pore, if I really wanted him to become a pub dog, I could get him there with drill drilling training, counter conditioning behaviour. And we've done a bit of that, you know, because I want him to feel safe. And so we have done some sort of training, behaviour modification. However, I still know that he would struggle in that environment. He would tolerate it because I've asked him to, but he wouldn't like it. So it's also about accepting

Mm.

even when you have the help, actually we can get them to hear and let's just leave it there rather than we could technically get them to hear. But it, who does that? So kind of thing. So also about

Yeah.

so protection around against and negative experiences as much as possible. So that's that prevention element. then has re realistic expectations as well there, which we've already talked about, provides relief and empathy. So empathy is just such a core, again, another core value of the partnership planet. And then appreciate the individuality, all of that leg stuff that we talked about earlier in terms of, knowing the dog in front of us. Just we as humans want to be loved for exactly who we are. Again, it's that cognitive discipline. We all seek this connection and validation from others, and yet we don't, we don't seem to allow or push that onto our animal family members. It's, it's strange. So it's about, you know, loving and that holistic, dog. You don't just work some parts and you, you have to accept and love them wholly.

Yeah. Brilliant. Wow. This episode has been jam packed. And we're gonna start wrapping up now before we just go onto our final section before we just do our final thoughts and that, but yeah, I've, I literally loved it so much, but rethinking success as a dog guardian. Often people feel pressure for their dog to be perfect and inverted comm, but how do you help people redefine what success even means, Maya?

Yeah, I mean, I think we've just, we've just answered that one. I think in terms of that expectations and the, that, that

Yeah.

it is, isn't it? It's it goes back to that critical reflection

Yeah.

perfect mean? Why, what, you know, what. You know, as a society, again, I think we, think that's like a tech to do with technology and AI and everything, but we're losing our critical analytical skills, we're losing our reflection skills, and instead we're just kind of blindly following things now instead of thinking, does this actually fit my moral compass? Does this actually fit my

Mm.

values? And examining what does perfect

Yeah.

for who? And

Mm-hmm.

and I, I can't, I can't remember who put this video up, it was one of the on Facebook somewhere, but, you know, they a video of like dog, you know, running through water and digging holes and everything like that. And, to someone else on Compliance Planet that looks like a badly behaved untrained dog. But to us, that's what

Yeah.

is to me. Perfect. Perfect to me is my dog feeling. He can express himself how he wants when he wants, and that he knows that he can come

I love that.

for help, that I'm there to help and guide and support him, not tell him what to do. So that to me is what perfect.

Yeah. We, I often talk in, in this podcast about being our dog superhero. You know, we've got a, we've gotta be their advocate. We've gotta be their superhero. Oh, their voice to a degree. Really. We, you know, we've, we've got a yeah, we've gotta just protect them and sort of speak up for 'em and stuff, so. Perfect. Oh, there we goes. Is that bloody word again? Right. Lovely. So just our final section Maya, is how listeners can start today, or how our viewers, if you're on YouTube, can start today. So for someone who's just discovered this model, where would you suggest they start?

That's such a good question. I, I envisioned when I wrote the partnership planet almost like a workbook to go alongside it. So like

Oh, okay.

reflective journal type thing so people could,

Yes.

could put it into action in a, so maybe I will, you know, maybe this will motivate me to, to go back, go back to it and expand on what it can offer. Because I do think I mean the. You know, good starting point is to kind of read it, access it, listen to this. I did a talk with Janet and Michelle from Heart Dog as well

Oh, love. Yeah, love them.

now. So

wow. Was it that long ago?

so, yeah.

Yeah, I remember.

there somewhere. And, and, and also people can, can pop me a message if, if they have any questions. But I think, you know, YIs place to start for that complimentary element to finding someone that can help with, if you are struggling with, with, you know, your dog finding someone that can help you with that kind of behavioural element and using the planets as a resource alongside that would be, you know, a really great place to, to start. and just question, I would just say

Yeah, I love that.

curiosity. It's again, skill Wheel. Just read everything. Even the stuff that you don't agree with, read it and then you'll know where to, how to spot that. Because at the minute what we're seeing is that, which we do not want to do, being veiled as something that we want to do, very packaged, very effectively, and marketed very

Mm.

with the right language. But when you look at it, it's compliance So there's no, we, we can't only live in our fishbowl in the partnership plan. We actually have to look at everything, filter everything, and then

Yeah.

all we can do, and I

Mm-hmm.

my, in my training with the, in the abuse, peaceful is all we can do is, is our best with the information we have available to us at the time and the limitations

Mm.

our roles and not within our kind of boundaries and our lives. And we can always seek for improvement. But, trying our best is, is under the rest, under underappreciated, you know? Yeah.

Mm, brilliant. A nice little plug for our partner there, Yappily. So find a nice, ethical, compassionate dog train or behaviourist via Yappily, the online search directory for ethical professionals using the planet partnership models with it as well. Brilliant. So Maya, how can our listeners learn more about the partnership planet or connect with your work? Please

it's a free access resource. You can find it on the website. We'll pop that in the description. Sure. Yeah.

show notes.

Joan,

Yeah

freely available on the website. You can also follow us on Facebook and

I.

LinkedIn. So we'll also put all of that in the description or resources part. And yeah, I'm very happy to, for anyone to pop me an email if they're interested in kind of having a chat or learning more about the planet.

Yeah, did you wanna tell us what your email was?

I could do, it's

Hmm.

it's quite long, so I thought people might so it is, it is in a minute. It's my name, so it's Maya badham@lukesafeguarding.org.

Yeah, no worries. We'll get it, will, it'll all be in the show notes and we upload it all anyway for the, on the website and the episode on the various platforms. Mayer Badham, thank you so much for joining me on the yappy Hour today, powered by Yappily. I've absolutely loved this conversation. It's been brilliant. It's south by, and it's just been so lovely chatting to you and getting, you know, getting to know more about yourself and, you know, the Planet Partnership model. So thank you for your time today. I've absolutely loved it.

So much for inviting me. Thank you.

You are most welcome.

Let's take a moment to reflect on what we heard today. Here are a few key takeaways. Number one, the partnership planet model challenges us to think differently about how we live with dogs, not as owners or trainers, but as equals navigating life together. Number two, may a reminder us that real connection starts with listening. To our dogs and to our own nervous systems and to the space between us. Number three, behaviour isn't something to be fixed. It's communication. And through the lens of partnership, we can respond with empathy instead of control. Number four, and perhaps most importantly, we don't need to have all the answers, we just need to show up in the relationship. Open and willing to grow for their sake and others. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider sharing it with a fellow dog, parent, or professional. Please subscribe so you never miss an episode of the yappy hour again, and please consider leaving us a review. It helps with those all important algorithms, all of the links to Maya's. Organization and contact details will be in the show notes. But thank you so much for Maya Badham for joining us today. What a truly inspiring and insightful conversation. I've absolutely loved it. This has been the Yappy Hour with Yappy Dogs Powered by Yappily. I'll see you next time.