Part 1 - Hayley Lewis & Halo Psychology

[00:00:00] Ross: Hi there, and a very warm welcome to Season five, episode seven of People Soup. It's Ross McIntosh. Here

[00:00:07] Hayley: I love that song because I spent. So much of my life and my working life, hiding who I was and pretending to be someone I wasn't, because I thought I wasn't good enough. So, you know, I'm a working class girl from south London grew up in the seventies. My niece, can't still can't get ahead around the fact that I talk around the fact we had an outside toilet for the first few years of my life.

[00:00:33] Hayley: And me, mum used to wash me in the sink in the kitchen and cut my hair with a bowl on my head. there is pictorial evidence, which you'll never see the light of day, but anyway, that aside, you know, education was a way out, mom and dad really like enforced education and, you know, long story short went to university, did my undergrad went, you know, in the, in the kind of early nineties, went out into the world of work.

[00:00:58] Hayley: And within a few years, ended up in a, in a role at the BBC in admin and then went into the psychology team and people all spoke with really posh voices. For example, the, you know, everybody spoke in a certain way. Many of the people that worked there were from private educated, backgrounds. And I just felt embarrassed. And I remember like, after a couple of years, particularly working in the psychology team, my sister commented on that. So she's like, why are you talking like that?

[00:01:26] Ross: P Soupers I'd like to introduce you to Dr. Haley Lewis. Haley is the founder of Halo Psychology and as an occupational psychologist, she provides expert and evidence-based support for individuals, teams, and organizations going through transition In this episode, you'll get to know Hailey and she's very open about her career experiences to date and what made her take the final leap to establish Halo psychology. We chat about the motivation to take those leaps and how we present them to the world, her approach to her profession, psychological safety,

[00:01:59] Ross: some trends in the [00:02:00] conversations that she has with her clients, how she fits everything in, and a whole lot more. You'll also get to hear Haley's song choice and the underlying reasons for her doctoral research topic. It was a joy to speak to Haley, and I hope you'll feel that from this conversation.

[00:02:15] Ross: People Soup is an award-winning podcast where we share evidence-based behavioral science in a way that's practical, accessible, and fun to help you glow to work a bit more often. let's just scoot over to the news desk because reviews are in for part two of my chat with Mike Jones.

[00:02:47] Ross: On Instagram. Jill sent me a message and said, hi, Ross, loved your interview with Mike Jones. Such a good reminder to accept that life isn't always good and that wellbeing starts with your mind. He's totally right about your voice. Would be brilliant for mindfulness recordings, Feliz Navad, and that's from Jill in Morpeth.

[00:03:06] Ross: Well, Jill, thank you so much for listening and for getting in touch. I really, really appreciate it and I appreciate everyone who listens, writes, reviews and shares episode.

[00:03:16] Ross: Thank you so much and with your help we'll reach more people with behavioral science that could be useful for them in the workplace. So for now, get a brew on and have a listen to part one of my chat with Haley Lewis. So Dr. Haley Lewis welcome to people soup.

[00:03:39] Hayley: Thank you very much for having me.

[00:03:41] Ross: I'm absolutely delighted. You've been on my list forever

[00:03:45] Hayley: Oh goodness.

[00:03:47] Ross: and it's a right thrill to have you.

[00:03:49] Hayley: It's a thrill to be here. I can't wait for our, chat and I hope people get something out of it.

[00:03:54] Ross: Brilliant. I'm sure they will. Now you might be familiar. I've got a research [00:04:00] department who delve into your background a bit and they've given me some notes, which I'm gonna share with you. They don't always get everything. Right. So,

[00:04:06] Hayley: I'm nervous now, Ross.

[00:04:11] Ross: So it says here, Dr. Haley Lewis is a chartered psychologist, coach, teacher consultant, sketch note doodler, a pracademic all in the service of making work better. Her consultancy halo psychology works with individuals, teams and organizations in transition challenges like supporting leaders. Who've been promoted.

[00:04:33] Ross: Those contemplating a career change, whether it's a radical one or a more gradual one, for instance, leaders managing a merger of two teams or leaders who are setting up a new function from scratch. These are all areas where people seek the service of halo psychology. And it's a consultancy that uses deep expertise in the field of psychology combined with firsthand experience of leading successful multimillion pound services to help people shine, create amazing workplaces teams and careers.

[00:05:04] Ross: How are we doing so far? Haley does this sound

[00:05:06] Hayley: Makes me sound like a superhero. I feel like I'm about to go. I'm Batman.

[00:05:12] Ross: well,

[00:05:12] Hayley: I'll just go to me. Bat cave.

[00:05:14] Ross: Well, some people me do regard you as a, as a superhero. If you're prepared to take on that mantle or maybe, maybe wear a Cape.

[00:05:26] Hayley: Former therapist might have some to say, I actually did have therapy back in 2005 as part of my leadership development, and one of the things that came up was my. Superhero or superwoman complex. So the need for everything to be perfect. being super hard on myself, putting other people first, always.

[00:05:45] Hayley: so it meant that I was kind of working myself into the ground. people. Won't be able to see it, but I've got a bit of a wry smile. certainly I take our profession really seriously, Ross and, Take our ethics very seriously and believe in being in the service of others.

[00:05:57] Hayley: You know, we are here as occupational psychologists to make [00:06:00] work better and help make organizations better. So if that gives me superhero status then yeah, I'll take it. But I probably do have cryp tonight as well.

[00:06:11] Ross: probably. I think, I think we all do if we're willing to reflect on it and go there and thanks for being so open P supers, this is just a flavor of Haley and who she is. She's open, she's authentic, and this makes her such a great practitioner. In fact, you've been described as a combination of a high beam torch.

[00:06:31] Ross: A guardian angel and a mountain guide to support leaders in their challenges they face. And you really do bring that blend of academic rigor and real world experience. You recently completed your professional doctorate at Birkbeck university of London. And that's part of the reason why I finally managed to get my act together and get Haley on the show.

[00:06:55] Ross: here. Research is fascinating. It explored the psychological factors, enabling women who run micro businesses in the UK to succeed. And we'll come back to that a bit later on in the conversation they've got more. Haley is also a guest lecturer at several UK universities on masters programs in organizational and business.

[00:07:12] Ross: Psychology says here, your specialist topics are leadership and management behavior and organizational culture and change. And that's where I first

[00:07:20] Ross: met you when I did my masters all those years ago, I reckon it was about seven. You gave this stunning lecture about your work and your approach, and it still sticks

[00:07:31] Hayley: Oh, goodness. Oh, that's nice to hear.

[00:07:33] Ross: Well, absolutely. And I know everyone else was like, wow, I want to be Hailey.

[00:07:39] Hayley: goodness, I'll pay you later. Ross. I'm, I'm really blushing now, but it's really, I've, I've sat that side of the table. You know, I remember when Paul, your buddy Paul, he, and I first talked about me doing some stuff a city university, and. It's really important to me. I kind of reflected on my own experience as a master student.

[00:07:57] Hayley: So I did my master's back in [00:08:00] 99 at city. And I remember getting frustrated with some of the particularly professional, series sessions where it felt like we were being sold to. for me, what's always at the back of my mind, whether I'm working with students. Delivering lectures or working with my clients through my consultancy is always, what's gonna give these people maximum value.

[00:08:19] Hayley: Their time is incredibly precious and their money is precious too. Whether you are paying for yourself as a student, you know, and. Postgrad programs aren't cheap, or whether you are a public or charity sector or, or even commercial organization trying to make ends meet. It's always really important to me that you get maximum value for time and money and, and your energy.

[00:08:38] Hayley: So it's really nice to have that, that feedback.

[00:08:40] Ross: Absolutely. And I also wanted to talk about your generosity because you really committed to bringing evidence based practice to organizations, and that's not only. Engagement with students and your clients, but by sharing your sketch notes, which beautifully summarize research and key messages from books and theories and models.

[00:09:04] Ross: And I highly recommend all the listeners check them out because they're super useful and you could find them on Haley's social media. And also subscribe to the whole back catalog and all the details will be in the show notes for this episode, because they really are great.

[00:09:19] Hayley: Oh, thank you. Yeah, I mean, it's not totally altruistic. obviously my main reason for doing them is to, to make the stuff that that is part and parcel of, of what people like you and I do Ross. And, and what many of your listeners do make what we do and know, and have access to accessible to others?

[00:09:37] Hayley: You know, my core focus is middle managers in local government, you know, it doesn't mean I don't work with others. but that's always kind of who I've got my eye on and there's so much brilliant research and evidence out there that we access a psychologist, but other, other people will never either access it or, or when you do read it, I mean, I struggle with [00:10:00] some academic journals, you know, I have to read each sentence. 20 times sometimes. and so I kind of see myself as a bit of a translator. if a middle manager, for example, looks at one of my sketch notes and it gives them some ideas, gives them a bit more confidence. It gives them on some ideas of how to work with their teams. And I see that as my job done, even better.

[00:10:19] Hayley: If somebody looks at that sketch note and then they go off and want to do more reading or their own research, I love that on LinkedIn, when. people from all walks of life kind of comment and say, oh, do you have any recommended, further reading? Or I'm gonna, ah, just gladdens my heart. And I believe in making psychology accessible to all, because I just think. there's also some dark side to psychology, but when we use it, well, it can, it can make the world a better place and it can make the world of work a better place. And, and yeah, if my sketch notes do that, but I just enjoy a bit of coloring in Ross, getting, getting, in touch with the, the four year old Taylor, I find it very, almost meditative.

[00:10:55] Hayley: I find it really soothing and, and immersive. So, so yeah, it's not totally altruistic.

[00:11:00] Ross: And again, we are, we are aligned on this, trying to make this stuff accessible. So it's, understandable in a simple format, might provoke discussion or further learning because otherwise it might just sit there on a shelf somewhere or a virtual shelf gathering dust and being of no use to anyone in the

[00:11:19] Hayley: Exactly and, and having having come out. The other side of my doctorate, I now really understand the blood, sweat, tears, joy heartache that goes into kind of researching your studies and writing them up. And. yeah, just as you say, to have them sit there on a, on a dusty shelf, whether virtual or otherwise, it's just so sad.

[00:11:43] Ross: It's it's a win. All right, I've got a little bit more so halo. Your consultancy is focused on and fascinated by the factors that enable people to thrive. Now, in our fields, there are various awards and there's a quite a [00:12:00] prestigious hit parade called the most influential thinkers in HR. And Haley has appeared in those charts, both in 2021 and 2022.

[00:12:09] Ross: and in typical chart tradition, she's risen from number 21. in 21, up to number 13 this

[00:12:17] Ross: year.

[00:12:17] Hayley: lucky for some

[00:12:19] Ross: but

[00:12:20] Hayley: not for me. No.

[00:12:21] Ross: And there's a whole host of other awards. now there was, there was a career before halo and just very briefly, cuz you might delve into this a bit more. Haley was an occupational psychologist at the BBC.

[00:12:34] Ross: And then held a variety of leadership positions at Croydon council, including leading on the mahoosive job of communication and engagement.

[00:12:44] Hayley: I know that. Yeah, that's still it's almost like a different me. I left local government. back in 2016. So I've just entered my seventh year of business of, running halo. And, I went into local government, in 2005. It was a very flat structure in the psychology team at the BBC.

[00:13:02] Hayley: And back then in my, I just turned 31. So very ambitious, didn't know any better, and, and just saw things very traditionally in terms of work my way up. it just wasn't possible at that time. so I kind of stepped out, went into local government, had the intention of going for two years as part of my grand plan of I'm gonna work in every sector, as, as a kind of an Occ Psych

[00:13:23] Hayley: and it didn't quite work out that way because unexpectedly, I felt completely an utterly in love with local government, what it stands for when it works well. You know, the residents, some of whom are incredibly vulnerable, we're there to serve. and just the wider public sector. And I think the reason I ended up staying for 11 years is because, well, first of all, I delivered, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna own that.

[00:13:46] Hayley: I think I bought something a bit different to the table because of my background as a psychologist. And so it, meant that people in the local authority were really curious about me. So I ended up being kind of internally headhunted. and so the upside of that is I, I kind of went into [00:14:00] more and more senior roles, really interesting roles.

[00:14:03] Hayley: The downside potentially, was I was getting further and further away from kind of pure Occ Psych and, and in particular organizational development and change. and getting more and more out of my depth as well. And. What always makes me laugh is the role that I found the hardest, which was the head of communication and engagement.

[00:14:23] Hayley: So I was responsible for media relations nationally and internationally. I was responsible for digital services to almost 400,000 residents. I was responsible for public consultation where there's legal requirements, freedom of information, you know, just a whole host of things. That really put me in the eye of the storm working. I was working really closely with politicians from both sides of the chamber, as well as working at the highest level in local and central government. And, I was completely out of my depth. And the weird thing is that was the role I had the longest.

[00:14:55] Hayley: So whilst I went in to set up the, the in-house organizational development function, I did that role. I was the head of OD for three years. and the head of coms role where I burn out. So in my first year, I, I suffered from acute stress, and experienced severe burnout. So I became mentally and physically ill, incredibly so.

[00:15:13] Hayley: It took me a good year to come back from that. I'm always surprised when I'm like, God, I was in that role four years. And, and the interesting thing for me was I never, certainly at the start of that role, I felt like a fraud. It's like, I'm not, I don't have a comms background. You know, I haven't been a journalist or in PR or anything like that.

[00:15:30] Hayley: And I had to really earn my stripes and. And the irony is when I left that role, that was my identity. When I kind of launched halo I had to do it was like Madonna. I had to, I had to do like a rebrand, a reinvention because on LinkedIn, everybody referred to me as a comms expert and it was like, no, no, no, no, no.

[00:15:51] Hayley: I'm a psychologist. Is that what a train does in the, in the late nineties is what it's always been me and. that took a long time to undo and to kind of get back [00:16:00] to people realizing that I'm a psychologist, but actually I think there's something also about honoring the experience of being in roles, like the head of comms and, you know, head of customer service strategy and stuff like that.

[00:16:11] Hayley: I think it's what makes me attractive to clients And so I own that now I talk, very passionately and with love to some extent about that time. and the battle scars that I earned, I always use the phrase battle scars. so a lot of my senior clients in management from middle manager up to chief exec they like the fact that I've been in their shoes almost.

[00:16:31] Hayley: I'm not just kind of coming at them, spouting a load of psychological theory and I've never. Run a service or had to face down a union or deal with a load of angry residents or been on the front page of the news, or, you know, I've lived and breathed that stuff. And, and so that's why people, I think seek me out.

[00:16:50] Hayley: I think for a long time, I was trying to kind of not cover up, but. Almost dim down that part of my past. And now I shine a bright light on it because it's, it's part and parcel of who I am. It's why I am where I am now. and it's not separate from my identity as a psychologist. In fact, it enhances it.

[00:17:06] Ross: Here here. Absolutely. Because I think people don't talk enough about their experiences in their, their career. And particularly to those times where it's been really challenging and really difficult, they tend to. Think about perhaps putting the, the LinkedIn gloss or the, the polished CV about all the achievements, but they don't talk about the, the corresponding challenges or dark times.

[00:17:31] Ross: And I think that is essentially human. And at the end of the day, we are all humans at work. And if we're not acknowledging that we're creating this sort of narrative, that everything is always dandy in the workplace.

[00:17:43] Hayley: and if it's not, and if you are talking about life as if it's not perfect, then there's something wrong with you. You are broken and that's just not true at all. Yeah. I love what you've just said, Ross, that there's something powerful in just embracing our human condition warts and all the good stuff.

[00:17:59] Hayley: The, the not so [00:18:00] good stuff. And, I just think also it can make us more accessible. It can, it can make it easier to connect. with others, we connect through stories. That's, that's definitely a thing I learned in my head of coms R and the power of stories and, I share. I share lots of my stories with students, with clients and the story that people certainly with my public sector clients, the story that, that seems to connect with them and give them hope.

[00:18:26] Hayley: Cuz I want to give people hope is when I pretty much had a breakdown and kind of my way back from that, because so many of my clients, particularly across local government, the blue light services, NHS are at breaking point. or have broken, and, and kind of by sharing my own stories and experiences, some clients have said it gives them hope that there's a way back, whether it's to the same thing or something different. So yeah. listeners share your stories.

[00:18:52] Ross: Yeah. And what you just said, there is so important. There is a way back. because we can feel utterly alone and isolated and with a mind like mine just catastrophizing

[00:19:05] Hayley: Yeah.

[00:19:06] Ross: and knowing that this will pass and there will be a way out of the other side is so important, but we don't know that unless people tell those stories like you

[00:19:15] Ross: are.

[00:19:16] Hayley: that's exactly it.

[00:19:17] You're not broken or faulty

[00:19:17] Hayley: the most common thing I say when I, when I meet a new client, particularly for, executive coaching, which is the vast proportion of the work that I do now, I'm meeting people from all walks of life, you know, from that first time manager, it's the first management role they've ever had all the way up to kind of chief Exec managing director level and the things so many of them have in common.

[00:19:38] Hayley: They, they kind of come to that first session where, where you're kind of really crystallizing what is gonna make the difference. what's, what's kind of your objective with this and kind of when we start to dig deep, the thing that they all have in common, regardless of their background or Experience they, talk about the, the issue that they're facing as though they're the only person and they're, they're faulty in some way and they should do [00:20:00] better.

[00:20:00] Hayley: And, the most common thing I say to them is you are not alone. You know, I have this conversation about this issue at least a couple of times a week with other people from other organizations. And you can almost see the sense of relief. From someone. So yeah, we can, think it's just us.

[00:20:16] Hayley: It's just me. Everybody else seems to be coping and doing really well, whether it's dealing with a difficult member of staff or juggling all the things as a parent or a carer, And what I find, just because I'm privileged enough for people to open up to me through coaching or mentoring is I'm kind of here to tell people, no, you're not alone.

[00:20:36] Hayley: There are multitudes of you facing the same thing and you are not broken or fault you're doing the best you can, but let's see if we can do some things to help you do even better.

[00:20:46] Ross: Beautiful. I love that. now we've had some. Amazing insights already into your career. Is there any other pivotal moment in your career that you, you talked to us about? Just give us an insight into how that was maybe the decision making or, how you were

[00:21:01] Leaving a hghly paid, prestigious job

[00:21:01] Hayley: mm. I think one of the, the most powerful, pivotal moments and, and it was one of the reasons that made me go into the. Research topic I did for my doctorate was the catalyst for me, leaving a very highly paid, very prestigious role in local government to set up on my own, to set up my own business.

[00:21:21] Hayley: And it was something that I'd thought about for a good few years. I think I said to you, when we had our kind of our preamble, Ross I had like notebooks filled with ideas. I always knew it was gonna be called halo. even back in kind of 2013, I had notes filled with ideas and the courses I would develop and the price I even had me pricing.

[00:21:40] Hayley: And, it almost became like the, girl who cried Wolf. I'd say to my husband, I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna leave. I tell my friends I'm gonna leave. And then at the last minute wouldn't, because there was a fear particularly I'm the sole wage earner in my family.

[00:21:53] Hayley: My, my husband, is ill. So, you know, got a mortgage to pay and all that stuff. And, there was just that kind of pressure. [00:22:00] And anyway, so this went on for a good few years and, kind of parallel to that. I was starting to do okay. As the head of coms, I'd come out the other side of this very dark time.

[00:22:08] Hayley: And I was kind of like, yeah, you know, I'm doing right. But it was just always there. there was just this tiny little voice and I ignored her. Anyway. so late 2015, my dad became ill With mental health issues. And it was an awful time. Anyway, long story short, he died unexpectedly at the start of 2016.

[00:22:26] Hayley: the week before his 70th birthday. So he is pretty young and it knocked me and my family for six and the voice started to get a little bit louder, but I quelled her, So carried on for a couple of months, we had dad's funeral. Mom was starting to feel tired at that point. And so to the point where the doctor referred her for some tests, and a few weeks after my dad's funeral, she got diagnosed with late stage cancer.

[00:22:48] Hayley: So terminal cancer and my husband and I sub you know, we had a holiday book, just before mom's first chemotherapy treatment. And. We were in, in my well, in our happy place, Dartmoor, we were walking and,

[00:23:01] I'm going to do it this time

[00:23:01] Hayley: and I said to my husband, I'm gonna do it this time. I was 42 at that point.

[00:23:04] Hayley: So early forties, which I think is a natural point for many of us, early thirties, early forties, early fifties. I think our natural points for us to pause, look back at what we've achieved, but also think, do I still wanna do that? I've got all this time, hopefully ahead of me. and that's kind of where I was.

[00:23:23] Hayley: And he was like, you know, that I'll support you, whatever you want to do. We had enough savings behind us, cuz we were both kids of the seventies. So quite prudent with money and had enough to cover costs for the year. Like our mortgage and everyth. So the weekend after my holiday, I handed my notice in and my boss had been waiting and I think long story short, there was something around what's the worst that could happen because the worst had already happened.

[00:23:49] Hayley: I'd lost my dad and. You know, I probably had a good few years left with my mom. So I kind of started to look at leaving and setting up on my own very differently in terms of I'll give it a [00:24:00] go and you know, what, if it doesn't work, I can't get another job. there's no shame in giving things a go.

[00:24:05] Hayley: And so that's kind of where I was, but it kind of, it then made me really curious.

[00:24:09] Interview for Doctorate - why do we leave it to catastrophic moments

[00:24:09] Hayley: I remember when I went for my interview to do the doctorate. And I was asked about my motivations and, and kind of, I looked at

[00:24:16] Hayley: female entrepreneurship and, and women who own businesses. and one of the things I was interested in because it was coming up in so many coaching conversations with female leaders who were thinking about setting up on their own, but were frightened to is why do we leave it to catastrophic moments to give us that courage, to make the leap, whatever the leap might be. Why does it have to get to that point where a family member might die or just something awful might happen? Because that, that was an interesting thing coming up in conversations with women. And so, yeah, that's that, that was one of the motivations for me doing my research.

[00:24:58] Bold moves

[00:24:58] Ross: I think sometimes thinking about CVs, I think that people have done something unusual and gone and done something different. And perhaps it hasn't worked.

[00:25:06] Ross: There's a tendency for people to want to try and hide that rather. Hell celebrate it. This makes you different. This means you took a bold move and I'm interested in people who take bold, moves, whatever the outcome,

[00:25:20] Hayley: I love that way of looking at it. Yeah, you're absolutely right. You, you know, and it is all about, the narrative you can put around. it, it, it's what we talk about when we do work with, with organizations and teams in relation to psychological safety.

[00:25:33] Psychological safety

[00:25:33] Hayley: I was having this conversation with a group of leaders yesterday, cuz one of them said failure. Isn't an option, which was a really, so it was a, so that was a really good starting point for a fantastic conversation with this group of leaders. We then dove into the, the kind of the theory and, and the characteristics of psychological safety and, and the things that leaders can do.

[00:25:54] Hayley: And they kind of came away understanding that actually it's about changing the narrative of failure. And it's about the [00:26:00] lessons that you learn. And, and so thinking in relation to what you've just said, Ross, actually it's about sharing the lessons that you've learned. If something, if you've tried something, you know, you've set up a business or done a side hustle, I hate that phrase side hustle, but all the millennials use it on Instagram.

[00:26:14] Hayley: Um, I shouldn't use generational. generalities, but, um, joking aside. Yeah. it's about on our CVS saying, you know, tried this, it didn't work, but this is what I learned from it. And did as a result. So psychological safety isn't just for the workplace, we can use it in relation to our CVS as well. I really like that Ross here.

[00:26:33] Ross: because I often hear an organization talking about psychological safety. I dunno about you, but it's one. The key themes that is really popular, but talking about it and actually working out how you might cultivate it is a, is a totally different thing

[00:26:47] Hayley: And being prepared to put the hard work in, including as the leader of a, of a team or a department. Acknowledging and owning the part that you are playing. So the course that I was running yesterday was, um, how to build a high performing team. So we look at, we, it's kind of based around what the research tells us.

[00:27:05] Hayley: And one of the areas that we dig into, as I say is psychological safety. And I share it's one of my favorite studies. Yes, I have favorite studies, led by Alex Newman Who is a psychologist in Australia, and it's a systematic review of psychological safety of the, the characteristics of psychological safety, but also the factors that help facilitate it.

[00:27:27] Hayley: Number one. Leadership behavior and specific types of leadership behavior. So a leader with a coaching style, a leader with a democratic, approach. And so one of the challenges that I always put to groups of leaders that I work with is what are you bringing to the table in terms of their supports this, and how are you behaving in a way that potentially hinders and undermines.

[00:27:50] Hayley: And you need to be honest with that. It starts and ends with you. and that's uncomfortable for some because I think some of the, the, not all, but some of the leaders and managers I work with it's far [00:28:00] easier. And they've learned over the years to look outside of themselves, it's a broken process or it's the culture of the organization or it's this and that might be true to some extent, but you are part of the culture and you are. Part of the problem. And as Melissa McCarthy says in bridesmaids, just as your part of the problem, you are also your own solution. One of my favorite films can never watch it enough.

[00:28:26] Ross: It is a superb film, which I think I watch it about once a year.

[00:28:31] Hayley: So, well, whenever it's on, if there's nothing else on, I'll watch her, my husband's like, are you watching this again? yeah, I love it. But yeah, she says that to, to Kristen V's character towards the end, she's like, just as you, your own problem, you, your also your own solution. And that's kind of what I say to the leaders that I, I work with.

[00:28:46] Hayley: It's not just about pointing.

[00:28:48] Hayley: I, I worked with a really wise woman, when I went to local government, Cheryl, She's she's an Australian woman, I was in awe of her just so wise. And she used to say, you know, one finger pointing out four fingers pointing back at yourself. Like when you do that, people obviously can't see what I'm doing, but yeah, when you're pointing your, your fingers go down and point towards yourself.

[00:29:09] Hayley: And that's always really stuck with me. When you point others, you also pointed to yourself,

[00:29:13] Ross: Beautiful. Thank you. And Hailey, I've got a slightly left field question. It's a question. I ask all my guests, but a song choice. If you had a song choice that would announce your arrival in a virtual. or a real room, even in your house for the next few weeks, months? Not forever, perhaps, although it might be forever.

[00:29:34] Ross: Do you have a song that would, that would represent you and announce your arrival?

[00:29:37] Hayley: Yeah, I've got two, but if I had to choose one. It's don't stop me now by queen. Love it. And that's, that's what I'm all about. I, I kind of just keep going.

[00:29:49] Ross: Don't stop me.

[00:29:50] Hayley: Absolutely. I'm gonna

[00:29:51] Hayley: get the, I'm gonna

[00:29:52] Ross: time.

[00:29:52] Hayley: hair. I don't need to get the

[00:29:53] Ross: I'm having a ball.

[00:29:54] Hayley: Exactly, exactly. And I, I that's, that's my hairbrush song. but I think [00:30:00] that gets to the heart of. What I've always been about is, is just like, like a rocket. So, so other people have used terms for me, like a rocket, Just, she just keeps going. That's feedback I've had in like 360 S or from friends or family. a couple of really close. They started off as work colleagues, but have come really good friends.

[00:30:19] Hayley: who don't know each other, but have said the same thing. They've said I'm like a Terminator sent from the future to bust through, to do lists cuz. Get stuff done. My husband says that as well. And so, yeah, don't just, don't stop me now. I'm just going to do stuff and keep going and have fun doing it.

[00:30:36] Ross: Now that's really, really interesting. Cuz my research department sent me this extra note and they said, um, this might be a bit sensitive, but we think we might recommend that you put this to Haley and they said they believe Haley may have found a way to adjust the space time continuum.

[00:30:55] Hayley: yeah, I always joke I should get the Hermione Time Turner.

[00:30:59] Hayley: I get asked a lot actually by students or, other practitioners who run their own business or, how I seem to do so much, I don't work full time. You know, when I set up Halo, Fridays were always a non-work day because Fridays were the day that my mom had her treatment.

[00:31:15] Hayley: So I was kind of caring for my mom. And after she died, in November, 2020, I just kept the Friday as a non-work day. and yes, but I still managed to get stuff done. And I think it's because. I'm very focused on what matters. you know, I don't let email manage me. It's the other way.

[00:31:33] Hayley: And that was the same in corporate life. You know, when I was in that head of Comms role in particular, I was getting anything up to like 250 emails a day. I didn't have a PA. and so I learned, you know, very quickly you can't respond to them all, what matters, what really matters and kind of having very clear boundaries and, and that's kind of just stood with me.

[00:31:53] Hayley: I mean, I've always been like that, but it kind of amplified as I got older and, and kind of went into more, more senior roles and [00:32:00] I've kind of just taken that into my business as well. And, and, you know, I, I have a portfolio career. I don't just run halo. There's other things that I do. And so I have to be organized. And I think it's, it also helps. And it goes back to the start of our conversation, Ross, about what, what I see my purpose as particularly as an occupational psychologist, what I'm here to do, who I'm here to serve through the work that I do. And that kind of keeps me almost that's as a compass for keeping me true to what matters. In terms of the content I produce in terms of the work that I say yes to, and the work I say no to, I sometimes say no to certain clients or certain pieces of work. And I I'm conscious of the privileged position around that, but I've also earned that, through my experience and, the good and the bad experience.

[00:32:46] Hayley: So all of those things combined, I think enable me to be. As productive as I can whilst also looking after my wellbeing.

[00:32:58] Ross: Wonderful. And, and that's beautiful role modeling as well for us.

[00:33:02] Hayley: And role modeling is really important to me again, as you and I talked about in the preamble, it's not enough for me to spout a load of stuff on LinkedIn or when I'm working with students, you know, I help manage the part, one of the professional doctorate, at Birkbeck and, you know, so I feel privileged to be working and some of them might be listening to this and I feel really privileged and take it really seriously and feel really honored to be working with practitioners in training.

[00:33:29] Hayley: So Occ Psychs they've, you know, they've done their masters, some of them a long time ago, some more recently they're doing their kind of HCPC practice. logs ahead of then doing part two of the doctorate. And when we're kind of organizing the weekend schools, for example, around the core disciplines of Oxy. So around for example, wellbeing or organizational change or leadership or whatever. It's really important to me that I'm role modeling the stuff that we are talking about in terms of the theory. So we had the last weekend [00:34:00] school was a couple of weekends ago and we, it was about wellbeing in the workplace, which is one of the five strands of Oxy. And it was about kind of, one of the things we looked at was around work life balance.

[00:34:08] Hayley: People were feeling very tired and it's one of the reasons why I believe in role modeling, What we're what we're advising to our clients or what we're talking to students about to show them that it is possible. and that's always been important to me. when I was in leadership roles, the stuff that I talked about in terms of what good leadership looks like and leadership theories.

[00:34:26] Hayley: Again, I believed in living that, didn't always get it right again, human condition, but I was certainly open to the feedback from my teams.

[00:34:33] Ross: I think it's one of the most effective ways we can spread the messages we want to spread and make things accessible is by bringing that human. through that role modeling and living parts of our lives out loud. I think it can really get people curious about what's possible.

[00:34:49] Hayley: I agree. And, and again, it goes back to what we were talking about earlier, when we see others who are maybe not dissimilar from us, doing things in a certain way and seem to be thriving. Or maybe I could do it too. that's kind of where I always wanna leave people is okay. Maybe I could do it too.

[00:35:07] Hayley: It's not just for the, the kind of the privileged few. but as with anything, I think sometimes when I mentor. So, whether I'm mentoring a new business owner, so a woman who's kind of left corporate life up her own business, or whether I'm mentoring a student in the field of occupational psychology.

[00:35:23] Hayley: So starting off on their journey. And I think sometimes we can all fall into this trap. They're comparing where they are now with where I am now. And I have to kind of gently remind them what you are not seeing is that, you know, particularly with, with new folk in the field of Occ Psych, the last session I ran at City

[00:35:41] Hayley: earlier this year I had a couple of the students contact me after and send really lovely feedback, but, you know, they, they were feeling quite overwhelmed and, and I said, you are at year one. I'm at year 25.

[00:35:54] Ross: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:35:56] Hayley: don't compare compare your year one with my year one where I made all sorts [00:36:00] of mistakes, tripping over myself all the time as a doing all sorts of things and, and learning from the mistakes. So, yeah, I think let's not compare ourselves to, to where we are now to, to where somebody else is.

[00:36:13] Hayley: Cuz they're completely different journeys.

[00:36:15] Ross: Yeah, it it's when we imagine. A famous sports person, you think, oh, I'm gonna take up that sport. And then we get a bit, and then we get a bit despondent when we realize we're, we're not quite ready for

[00:36:28] Ross: Wimbledon yet.

[00:36:29] Hayley: can't I run a

[00:36:30] Ross: like,

[00:36:30] Hayley: meters in nine seconds?

[00:36:34] Hayley: and that's a really important point, Ross, because it's all the hard work. And the battles and the lessons learned and the consistent showing up that sits behind that achievement. And that's what I talk to students and some of my clients about, and again, it came up yesterday with this group of leaders.

[00:36:58] Hayley: As I say that I was working with and. It comes up quite a lot on the how to build a high performing team course, because I'm talking about kind of best practice and I share kind of evidence based tools and techniques that they try out and what the evidence tells us And you can see some of them sitting there going, oh my Lord, I'm tired looking at the oh, And I call them out on it, cuz everything's a choice.

[00:37:20] Hayley: And I say, you know, you, you're probably sitting here looking at this, some of you thinking, oh, this is too much like hard work and that's, completely justified. And so you have a choice. Your choice is to carry on as you are, which is a legitimate choice. Absolutely fine. Are you gonna take your team to the next level? Maybe not. Own your consequences of that choice. Do you wanna take your team to the next level? Well, then you might need to try some different stuff and be consistent in applying that. And I say this to someone of my clients. You can't have your cake and eat it. You can't magically click your finger or wriggle your nose like Samantha in Bewitched.

[00:37:54] Hayley: And, and suddenly everything's sorted. It requires us as, as people to show [00:38:00] up consistently. every day, you know, it's those incremental games. And even on those days where it feels really hard, keep, keep, go, don't stop me now. Keep going. And not, everybody's kind of prepared to do that and there's no judgment for me.

[00:38:15] Hayley: That's okay. But take the consequences of that choice and we don't always wanna do that,

[00:38:21] Ross: love it showing up. Absolutely.

[00:38:24] Hayley: but owning your choices.

[00:38:27] Ross: Yeah. And realizing that that

[00:38:28] Hayley: Yeah, not doing, something is a, is a legitimate choice,

[00:38:33] Hayley: there's pros to that, but there's cons to that and own it. And, and that's often the bit that's missing. I'm getting on my high horse now, Ross.

[00:38:41] Ross: I love it. I love it. Now being of curious nature, I also need to ask, you said you had two choices for your song. What was the second choice

[00:38:49] Hayley: Um, this is me. it's from the film, the greatest showman sung by Keala Settle. I mean, I can imagine some of the listeners roll in their eyes going, oh God, that's such an obvious choice. And it probably is, but it really, I love that song because I spent. So much of my life and my working life, hiding who I was and pretending to be someone I wasn't, because I thought I wasn't good enough. So, you know, I'm a working class girl from south London grew up in the seventies. My niece, can't still can't get ahead around the fact that I talk around the fact we had an outside toilet for the first few years of my life.

[00:39:28] Hayley: And me, mum used to wash me in the sink in the kitchen and cut my hair with a bowl on my head. there is pictorial evidence, which you'll never see the light of day, but anyway, that aside, you know, education was a way out, mom and dad really like enforced education and, you know, long story short went to university, did my undergrad went, you know, in the, in the kind of early nineties, went out into the world of work.

[00:39:53] Hayley: And within a few years, ended up in a, in a role at the BBC in admin and then went into the psychology team and people [00:40:00] all spoke with really posh voices. For example, the, you know, everybody spoke in a certain way. Many of the people that worked there were from private educated, backgrounds. And I just felt embarrassed.

[00:40:11] Hayley: And I remember like, after a couple of years, particularly working in the psychology team, my sister commented on that. So she's like, why are you talking like that? it was even affecting how I was talking, but I was in this team where everybody was chartered. They were younger than me.

[00:40:27] Hayley: They were getting chartered chartership. At that point, wasn't a possibility because I didn't have graduate basis registration and I, I just felt fraudulent. And I was constantly comparing myself to others and thinking if I was more like them, I'd be better. And so I kind of. Almost lost who I, I didn't even know who I was and I was pretending to be other people and that kind of even continued into local government.

[00:40:51] Hayley: And, and this is why the work that I did with a therapist just a few months before I went into local government, um, I had the option of going on the leadership program at the BBC and because I'd, I'd helped design part of that. And. Facilitating part of it. I was like, I'm not sure that's the best use of money.

[00:41:08] Hayley: Actually. I think I need something deeper. And my boss at that time said, yeah, we'll happily pay for an executive coach with a therapeutic background. And the work I did with her was deep. It was hard, it was grueling. Um, but I came out the other side, starting to understand who I was and be proud of that warts and all. and so that's why the song, this is me really resonates quite deeply. Now, I think at the age of 48 I'm I'm not too far off 49. It's taken me a long time to get here, and I think as a woman as well, I think you get to a certain age as a woman and you just don't really care what people think of you. And I'm kind of at that point. So yeah, this is me. That's why that song resonates.

[00:41:52] Ross: Well personally, thank you for being a role model to, to more people. And you might imagine you're a role model for [00:42:00] it's really, really appreciated from here.

[00:42:02] Hayley: You're welcome.

[00:42:04] Ross: That's it, folks. Part one in the bag. Thanks so much to Haley for being so open and for being such a role model for us all in the workplace. Next time we'll continue our chat and jump right in to Haley's research.

[00:42:21] Ross: If you like this episode of the podcast, please, could you do three things? Number one, share it with one other person. Number two, subscribe to the podcast and give us a five star review. Whatever platform you're on, and particularly if you're on Apple Podcasts, the Apple charts are really important in the podcast industry.

[00:42:40] Ross: And number three, share the heck out of it on the socials. This will all help us reach more people with stuff that could be. I'd love to hear from you and you can get in touch at people soup dot pod gmail.com. On Twitter, we are at People Soup Pod on Instagram at People dot Soup.

[00:42:56] Ross: And on Facebook we are at People Soup Pod. thanks to Andy Klan for his Spoon Magic. And Alex Engelberg for his vocal. Most of all, dear listener, thanks to you. Look after yourselves. Peace supers and bye for now.

[00:43:10] Hayley: And I'm kind of at that point. So yeah, this is me. That's why that song resonates. Can't give it to you. I'm giving it to you all on a plate. Aren't I,

[00:43:20] Ross: you

[00:43:20] Ross: are

[00:43:21] Ross: you are It's

[00:43:22] Hayley: There are no secrets here.