On January 6th, failure wasn't a lack of warning.

It wasn't a lack of experience, it was a failure of permission.

In this episode, former US Capitol Police Chief Steve Sund walks us

back into the command center and into the decisions that still shape

what we understand about that day.

Hey, Steve.

we're doing this interview right around the five year

anniversary of January 6th, 2021.

The riot at the Capitol, you were Chief of Police on that day, and

you've written a book, and I, want our audience to understand that this

is the definitive, piece of work.

If you wanna know what really happened on January 6th, what

led up to it, the aftermath.

all the good things that happened that day, the heroism of, the Capitol police

and other jurisdictions, and how they were able to protect the Capitol and

prevent, any member of Congress or staff from being, injured or killed

and, I wanna get that out there.

First of all, because we're not gonna be able to cover

all the details in this book.

We've already interviewed you in a great three part series a year ago.

About what happened on January 6th, and we talked about your book, but, in hindsight,

okay, here we are five years later.

I'd like you to just, reflect on January 6th, the lead up, the aftermath.

What was your toughest challenge, the toughest moment

that you faced on January 6th?

And then we'll talk about, some of the mistakes that were made in some

of the, lessons that we've learned.

I can tell you a absolutely as soon as you start saying it,

because it was the time I felt like I had a shockwave go through my body.

I'm sitting in a chair at the command center.

I'm at the front of this, large command center.

We have video screens up on the front.

I'm at a U-shaped desk.

I'm watching all the video screens, at, the front.

It's probably about 12:53.

The riot began and I saw my officers quickly being

overpowered, picked up the phone.

called, you know what?

Luckily, first call was the MPD and they sent me some assistance right away.

But by law, I have to get permission to bring in federal resources and

resources for my men and women.

So I called the Capitol Police Board, which I'm still by law, even in

emergency, I have to get, permission, called speaker Pelosi, Sergeant At Arms.

He, and he had permit.

He had the ability to gimme permission, but he wouldn't.

He wanted to run it up the chain.

I couldn't believe it.

I've got liaisons from the Capitol Police Board sitting right behind me

watching the same thing I'm watching.

I can't get permission to bring in any, federal resources from my

officers watching them being, beaten, struck, protestors, running past them.

I called the Senate Sergeant At Arms and I get denied again repeatedly.

House Sergeant At Arms, I keep calling 'cause the House Sergeant At Arms pretty

much driving the train on this one.

I was just in shock that I can't get permission to bring

in resources, for my offices.

That's the thing that kind of shocked me the most, that you know here, my

officers are battling, I'm having to watch them battle, and here I'm stuck

because of a policy and bureaucracy.

to say I can't bring in federal resources.

I didn't.

I, I didn't sit back, for that 71 minutes and do nothing.

That's when I started calling every chief of police.

I knew, relying on relationships and brought in those resources

even though I hadn't been given permission at that point.

so I was just, that's the thing that just shocks me the most.

The fact that it wasn't an instantaneous absolutely whatever

you need, chief, bring them in.

it was delayed for over an hour.

In your mind, if we had the National Guard, resources

that you had wanted to, prepare and, have, surrounding the Capitol

that day, is it fair to say that we would've prevented what we saw on tv?

Would we have prevented people from, breaching the, US Capitol?

So there, there's two aspects to that.

Yes, yes.

and it's just not my opinion.

Congress has actually come out now in a report and said, if the House and Senate

Sergeant At Arms had approved Chief Son's request on January 3rd, chances are the

Capitol would've never been breached.

And I absolutely believe that I've worked with, national Guard troops.

For decades, I've sworn in thousand National Gaurd troops.

They would've come out, they would've done an assessment through the DSCA program.

Defense support for civil authorities, analyzed the size of our perimeter, and

all I wanted them was to unarmed National Guard to help support my perimeter.

I had a large perimeter that four foot bike rack.

Only had 273 officers for the perimeter.

And you gotta understand those officers aren't just for the

perimeter, therefore response, they're CDU response, they're a response.

They're some of the P officers I lost when we got the pipe bombs that came in.

And I just wanted them to augment my officers so people wouldn't be inclined to

jump over the fence and couldn't get that.

So Congress has already come out and said, chances are we, they would've,

the capital would've never been breached if they had approved on the third.

And then if you look at January 6th, the head of the D.C. National

Guard General William Walker at the time actually testified and said

he had almost 200 National Guard within eyesight of the Capitol.

If I had gotten immediate approval to bring them in chance R, they could have

been on site very quickly, and he thinks they actually could have prevented

it even once the, riot had started.

While we're on this topic, I just wanna, throw a few more

things out, especially for people that haven't watched, any of our poD.C.asts

before, perhaps know your background.

But, you had mentioned that right now you'd mentioned that even

as early as January 3rd, that.

The National Guard was requested.

I think there's been numerous other people, that have come forward now

that were privy to those discussions with not only the Department of

Defense, but the White House and everybody that said, yeah, Trump even

said, send National Guard ultimately.

And you, I want to go back to what you were just saying

about the Sergeant of Arms.

You were the scapegoat.

You were fired the next day after January 6th by Nancy Pelosi

because it was a political thing.

Clearly, Sergeant of Arms works for Nancy Pelosi.

They ultimately were the ones along with, it's my understanding,

Mario Bowser, the mayor.

Of D.C. that all didn't want the National Guard for whatever reason.

But here's what I wanna ask.

So there's been reporting, and I just want to know if you know anything about

this or if it's true, when the Sergeant of Arms left whenever that was, it's

been reported that he had to sign A-M-D-A-A non-disclosure agreement,

which I've never heard of before.

What do you know about that?

So as far as, so you have two Sarge Arms.

You have Mike Stinger, and you have Paul Irving.

I, you, I suspect you're probably talking about Paul Irving, or, maybe

you're talking about both of 'em.

don't know under what circumstances, they left.

But IWI will tell you this, what's, what I find interesting is when I left, again, I

was stripped out within 24 hours and then.

Removed from my office that Friday, I got a call and said, you're

immediately out of your office and disconnected from everything.

you gotta wonder why did that happen so fast?

That's a whole nother story.

but for me, no, NDA, they never approached me about an NDA.

But what's interesting is several officials after me, that were,

discipline, some people that are whistleblowers, that they went after,

all within the, department board I understand we're, required to sign NDAs.

Who signs an NDA unless you got something to hide.

Of course, NA, right?

Unless you're, gonna go and sell corporate secrets or something like that.

Nothing I, I talk about is, is classified.

Nothing associated with this, was classified.

It's very, suspect, but, so you just made it clear

you did not have to sign an NDA.

No.

But what I remember in discussing with you before.

You had some issues with people, even threats, trying to dissuade

you from writing your book.

Oh, let's see.

again, had a number of people that were, that were, concerned

about your writing book.

I'll take the January 6th Select committee.

'cause that was right, when, we were having negotiations with them, again, they

never wanted me to just testify in public.

I would've been happy to testify in public.

and they kept pushing for behind the closed door.

I interview, which we, I ultimately did.

And they, I think were concerned.

I was writing a book so that, there's a little bit, Hey, are after writing

a book, and for me, it wasn't about writing a book, it was about doing an

after action report and making sure that somebody understands what exactly

what really happened based on the facts.

so yeah, that was, the, the pressure I'd gotten.

Not, I don't feel like I, I had gotten a whole lot of pressure

from up on the hill about it.

I stayed, I stayed very quiet.

about putting it together as I just collected information.

But, I will tell you this, I had whistleblowers from within my

own intelligence unit come out.

several of those ended up getting disciplined, which was sad.

Whistleblowers within the intelligence community itself, Department

of Defense whistleblowers come out, that helped support that.

Were very supportive of the, of the book and the number one support I get today.

which is interesting 'cause I still have a great relationship

with Capitol police officers, MPD officers, a lot of my brethren.

Of Capitol police officers continue to tell me just how happy they were that I

wrote the book and actually their story.

'cause, it's, their story too, is told in a, factual, unbiased, account.

I appreciate.

I remember Dennis telling us about reading the book when

he read the book and saying it was the most detailed factual account.

And, you had all of the references, the cross references,

the side notes and whatever.

Dennis, maybe you want to jump on that?

Yeah, I I, do a lot of reading and I will tell you that probably

is the most research, heavy, citation heavy book that I've read in a long time.

He's got ex, dates and times, exact ti times and dates.

You have messages, exact copies of messages, emails, et cetera.

I was like, wow.

That gave, that what, whatever level of credibility you had that just

put it way, way up there for me.

And the good thing about the book I found is that it was a page turner.

you talk about all the detail and all the research that went into it,

but you felt like you were there on January 6th living through the.

The minute by minute, action, out on the grounds of the Capitol.

What was happening behind the scenes in, your office, Steve?

I found it fascinating and, again, I encourage, all our audience to, to go

out and read it because we're, just gonna be able to touch the surface here today.

One question I had, getting back to your earlier comment is, based

on what you know today, have.

Changes been made to allow for the chief of the Capitol police to have

more control, more say over what resources he, he or she may need.

I, if ever a crisis like this occurs again.

So the biggest problem I faced and looking back at, it

was the political influence that.

People have over the, chief of the Capitol Police, you have the Capitol Police Board.

They're all politically, appointed individuals.

they exert an extreme amount of pressure on the Chief, and that still exists.

and then you have four, congressional oversight committees

that are really staffed.

Even though you have members of Congress on each of the oversight

committees, really a lot of the political pressure comes from the

staffers, that gets pushed down.

And, sad to say that's the, that environment still exists.

The one thing that did change, and I have a lot of people, that will question, oh,

did did you have to keep going forward?

Permission?

Did you really have to get permission?

I if you doubt it, the one law that I referenced that to U.S.

Code § 1970, they changed.

They changed 11 months after January 6th.

In December, 2021, they did the, US Capitol Police Emergency

Authorization Act, I think is what they, did the amendment titled.

and now they grant the chief of police, when they deem, when he deems

necessary, he or she deems necessary to call in federal resources without

going through that bureaucratic mess.

So the one thing that changed was they changed 2 U.S. Code § 1970.

but besides that, the structure that I still think, adds to.

poor planning, poor, preparations.

whether or not your officers are gonna be in hard gear, whether or not you're

gonna put up fencing, all relates way too much, per, allows too much power from,

political influence to, to affect those decisions rather than looking and say,

Hey, we've got somebody that's a, 30 year.

Police veteran, let's listen to him.

If he sees, says his officers need to be in hard gear, put 'em in hard gear.

you need fencing, let's give 'em the fencing.

But now you just gotta go through all these rigmaroles and get approval.

Think about it.

We didn't have tasers up on Capitol Hill.

what an environment for less lethal.

That's an environment.

You need a number of different options.

But 'cause we deal with mental health concerns all the time.

It took months, it took years for me to get tasers, and I had to go

through these committees and keep defending myself why I wanted tasers.

That's a no brainer.

why would you not, why wouldn't you not want 'em immediately?

And, have to deal with staffers to get permission to bring in tasers.

That just makes no sense.

See, I think it's important here just to, make sure

that we say or, let you talk about the fact that since then, since this

whole incident, you've been exonerated.

life has changed quite a bit for you, but you've also been involved with Congress.

You've been speaking to some of the senators, the Congress people.

I don't, I can't recall the timeline.

Have you been on one of the committees in front of one of the committees or

about to be, maybe talk about that stuff.

Yeah, I stay, in, touch with many members of, of Congress.

Right now, the current January 6th committee is chaired by,

chairman Barry Loudermilk.

He's doing a really good job.

He chaired the, previous one, I, testified last time I testified in public.

Before them was September, I wanna say 23.

because of the shutdown, a lot of delays and getting the process back

up, they're now back up and running.

It's my understanding they're gonna have their first hearing

in the beginning of the year, possibly even on, on January 6th.

I've told 'em, they've asked, Hey, you may be one of our first, witnesses.

Okay?

I, you, they know they don't have to subpoena me.

I'll be there.

but I think right now they've, they, should be focused and they know my story.

they've, matter of fact, the chairman actually endorsed the book.

So he knows my story.

My story's not gonna change.

It hasn't changed in five years.

It's not gonna change now.

they need to bring in, some of the bigger fish they need to bring in some

of the people that may be, again, behind some of the cri critical decisions that

caused us to be ill prepared that day.

So let's talk about some of those things that happened in January 6th.

I, because we don't wanna harp on this continuously, but I want to

close the book on this, the good, the bad, the ugly, the indifference.

There's been a lot of video, there's been a lot of reporting, and I wanna see.

What light you perhaps could shed on some of these things.

So I'm gonna ask you three different things and we can go over them.

the first one we'll start out with is, it's been reported that the FBI had

numerous up to maybe a hundred or more 200 sources and informants that were in the

crowd that were used to incite the crowd.

Maybe even perhaps encourage them to come into the, or go into the Capitol building.

What do you know about that?

It, it's interesting you asked that question.

in a number of my interviews, I've often said I would've been, I

would've absolutely been surprised that there wasn't, if there was,

if they said there was never any undercover, agents in the, crowd or,

CHS as confidential human sources.

But CHS is aside special agents.

I would've been surprised, a big event taking place in Washington,

D.C. You've got plain clothes, people that work for Secret Service.

You've got plain clothes.

People that work for the FBI, you've got the Joint Terrorism Task Force.

You've got.

Plain clothes for Capitol Police.

You've got, The park police.

think about it.

to think.

There would've been no undercovers in the crowd that, that just

didn't, hold water for me.

But you're, what you're referring to is a report that recently came

out, 275, 273, under, plain clothes.

They referred to 'em as plain clothes, fed, FBI agents, that responded

to the Capitol on January 6th.

So let's look at that.

That's a report that came out.

I think it came out, which was denied by the way.

They denied that there was ever those people there.

What it goes back is Christopher Ray is down on the hill on

several occasions and he is testifying that he, he, can't account for any, he's

not sure if there was any in the crowd.

That right there, if you're the director of the FBI one or the director of the WFO,

or you go back down, who's running JTTF.

All you gotta do is ask who'd you have in the crowd who was out there.

that's something that would've been an easy, hold on, lemme pick up the phone

and find out for him to keep saying, and he went down there repeatedly

saying he can't answer that he doesn't know how many he was there that.

Yeah, that, that's just poor management if that's the case, but that just

doesn't, that doesn't make sense to me.

ultimately because of Congress kept pressing, pushing a report finally

came out from the, FBI talking about there's 273, FBI agents, plain

closed FBI agents that responded.

So I've read through that report a couple of times.

If you read through it, it actually talks about a couple of things.

One.

There's a response to the capital.

So ultimately, as those 71 minutes are tick ticking by, and I can't get

permission to bring in federal resource, like I said, I'm talking to every

chief.

Every person I know.

I'm talking to Secret Service.

I'm talking to Wada, I'm talking to Metropolitan Airport

Authority, Fairfax, you, name it.

Actually a mutual aid.

ultimately I talked to a guy by the name of Dave Bch, number two

over at, FBI at the time about, Hey, send me whatever you've got.

he was gonna send over some of his, what they call their SWAT team.

It's a, Not full-time.

It's, one day you're an agent at WFO doing financial crimes, but you've got

all this gear and you're trained to a SWAT level so you can form into a SWAT team.

So I contacted him, he was gonna send people over to lot 16,

we were gonna deploy him from lot 16 inside the building.

And at lot 16 I had somebody, keeping track of who we were getting over.

I've been involved in active shooters before.

I knew I wanted to keep track of my resources.

and from that I got an accounting of 55.

At the end of the night, 55 FBI agents came over to assist.

So we've got that, tranche.

Another one is when I went over to brief the Senate over on the Senate

division, the Senate side of the, Capitol, the, hostage rescue team was on site.

I'd been told that actually helicoptered in, fast roped into a

lot 16, but they were on site there.

I wasn't aware of that.

That wasn't part of my, accounting.

Their hostage rescue team.

I think it's right around 44 to 48 people maybe, actual operators,

not counting all their support.

okay, maybe there's another 40, 45, let's say.

So now we're up to about a hundred.

Then they talked about deploying, some FBI agents to the two pipe bombs.

We had the one at the RNC one at the DNC, and I know for a fact FBI was there.

They responded in plain clothes.

Five, maybe 10 per site.

That's maybe 120.

so we've got a big difference between the 120, 130 I might be

able to account for, and the two 70.

I have no idea, what the other ones were doing.

I think there needs to be a better accounting.

the only reporting I've heard of an undercover, law enforcement, officer

in the crowd encouraging people to go into the building was the committee.

Under Barry Loudermilk had a video of what they reported to be an MPD

officer, possibly, part of their intelligence division, encouraging

people, you gotta go in, you gotta move towards capital, you gotta go in.

So that's the one they have on video that I'm aware of.

but yeah, there's just a big discrepancy, 273 versus the numbers I have.

it'd just be nice to know exactly what everybody was doing.

So the two other parts of this to wrap up, there's

video out there, first of all, there's a lot of video, right?

But there's still video from the US Capitol building that hasn't been

released, which a lot of people are wondering why is that the case?

But the videos that I'm gonna ask you about, so there's this one

guy pretty, recognizable on TV with the horns and the crazy hat.

He was like the Grand Puba or something, the shaman, whatever he, was, and,

you see him and he goes into the.

To the, floor and tries to get up on the speaker's chair or whatever and it

looks like before and after that he's been, he's being essentially escorted or

given a tour by a Capitol police officer.

Tell us about that.

So my understanding of that, and I've had a chance to talk with,

some of the officers that were, on the scene, not specifically the officers

that were, escorting him, but some of the officers that were on the scene, and

the individual you're talking about is, Jacob Chansley, I believe is his name.

He's there, the officers are trying to clear what they call

the, this, the house chambers.

they've got people in there, they've gone in there, asked him several times to clear

out, and they see this guy that's wearing the horns and walk around and they, almost

think of him as a, in facto, leader.

They looked at him like, Hey, maybe he's, the, these groups will follow him.

And he kept saying, I'll help you get them out.

From what I understand.

I'll help you get them out.

Just get me in there and, I can help you get 'em out.

So you see the officers go around to a couple of the doors that are locked.

He finally finds the doors that are unlocked, escort 'em in.

And I believe he does actually help, to get some of those people out.

He prays for the officers, helps get some of 'em out.

So I think ultimately the officers are trying to find somebody that, the

people that were inside the chambers, the people that were unauthorized

to be in there would listen to when they weren't listening to the

police officers and actually vacate.

So I think that's the story behind that one.

The last one then is there's video of some Capitol police

officers in uniform actually holding the doors open and allowing people to enter.

How do you explain that?

Yeah, that, that'd be one I'd, I'd like to look at.

There are videos and I'll tell you, I've seen a couple of, different

videos where it looks like you're following some of the protesters.

You see some of the officers standing back.

They could be standing against the doors, and looking like

they're holding the doors open.

but there's a number of cases where the officers, and I've talked to some

of these officers, they said, Hey, chief, we are absolutely overwhelmed.

Over number outnumbered.

What were we supposed to do?

We're just sitting there, we, we couldn't form a line.

We couldn't, provide any, force to try force them out.

We just kinda stood back and hoping things would deescalate.

So I think you may have a couple of cases like that.

I, I've, heard stories where doors were left unlocked.

That's, terrible.

If that is the case, I know there's a video out where it

shows a. African American female officer out on the east front.

It looks like she's waving at people to come on in, come toward the building,

and then the camera turns and you see a large crowd of people walking toward her.

She was actually, waving at other police officers that couldn't hear us on the

radio or couldn't hear people saying we're falling back to the Capitol.

So she's waving at them.

so there's some, explanation for some of it, but if you've got somebody,

holding doors open for, protesters that you know that's something

that shouldn't have happened.

Steve, it's been, a little over a year now, since our last interview.

And, a couple big things have happened since then.

I'm gonna ask you about both of them.

First.

very recently they arrested.

The pipe bomber, you've alluded to it several times in your comments that,

there were two pipe bombs that were found, one at the RNC, the Republican National

Committee Building and the other at the Democrat National Committee, building.

And nobody ever, the, bombs never.

Were detonated, thank goodness nobody was hurt by them.

But clearly they could have done a lot of damage.

They could have caused death, and nobody ever found out

who was responsible for that.

there were a lot of theories.

Now the pipe bomber has been arrested.

What do you know about the suspect that was arrested, and why did it

take five years for them to finally figure out what happened there?

That's, that, that's the big question for me.

I've always, I've, been pushing over and over and, to, for them to hopefully

find this, the pipe bomber or the pipe bombers or whoever's, behind it.

And knew that this would, eventually it's gonna lead to, some good,

hopefully puzzle pieces being put in place on this whole January 6th thing.

what I know of, Brian Cole, Jr. One interesting, individual.

I will say this, I've been in touch with the committees.

I've actually been down to talk to the committees back in, I wanna say

October, pushing for, re-announcement of the $500,000, reward, and that FBI

there, and looking at this from square one, I'm glad they've, solved it.

I would say a couple things.

One.

Handle this investigation methodically, not like they did before.

methodically, stay quiet if you have to on stuff as you're, see seeking prosecution.

I don't think Brian Cole, Jr. is gonna be the sole person, responsible.

You see him on the phone a couple of times talking to somebody while he's,

walking around planning these devices.

HIs mental acuity is I guess being as brought into question.

we'll see how that is.

But I'm glad they found somebody and I just hope they handled the

investigation appropriately, and we get, some more answers out of it as

far as why it took so long, to find out now that this was solved, all based on

evidence they already had, in place.

All of it's, the, phone records, the geolocating, that would've

led to the, car, the LPR.

This, it would've taken a good comp three, four weeks, maybe.

And, then if you gotta wait for returns from the phone companies, I'll, give 'em

a little bit more time, not 58 months.

I mean come on folks.

That just doesn't make any sense.

To find out that they were sitting on this evidence the entire time, and they

could have solved this a long time ago.

I find that very, concerning.

Isn't it interesting that with the new leadership, now

that it's at the FBI and the DOJ, lots of things are coming out.

Yep.

And I'm thinking I continue to pursue 'em.

Yes, sir.

Do you have any, sense, any instinct, any cop instinct

as to why those bombs were planted?

I've always, felt that, For me, the, timing was very, suspect.

the fact that they're identified just minutes before, we have the, breach

of the, west front, it couldn't have happened at a worse time.

So for me, I've always felt it was some type of diversionary tactic because

it pulled the limited resources I had away over to the RNC at a terrible

time and we had to evacuate part of the candid house office building.

so I've always felt.

it was a diversionary, tactic somehow associated with January 6th.

We'll see.

We'll see what comes out of that.

but the timing, I'm always suspicious about, the timing, that's,

that, that's my thought on it.

I'm just waiting for more to come out.

I think most of the people listening, to this poD.C.ast

probably didn't even know there were any pipe bombs maybe they heard

about the pipe bomber being arrested and they learned about it that way.

But with everything else going on January 6th, on the Capitol grounds, people trying

to breach the capital, I think that's where all our attention was focused.

Meanwhile, you and your officers have to deal with.

Pipe bombs being left at buildings right along the, US Capitol campus.

unbelievable what you had to deal with that day, my friend.

But, the other issue that I wanted you to comment on, because we didn't get a chance

to ask you about this, president Trump, one of his first acts, when he became

president, was to issue pardons to most of the rioters on January 6th, many of 'em

who had been imprisoned, since that time.

I'm just curious, what, is your reaction to Pardoning rioters who

were, combating your officers and trying to get into the US Capitol?

I'll tell you a couple of things.

One, he had always said he was gonna do it, when he was going through the, the

campaign and he was, out there, talking.

It was no secret he was gonna do it.

For me, being a rule of law type of guy, I, only wish that it probably a

better way of done it would've just gone through each, case individually.

You had a, I wanna say approximately 17, 1800 people that they went

through and they ended up, pardoning some of those people, were extremely

violent, and assaulted my officers, and deserved to do, some time.

And be held accountable.

And then you had other people that again, would just walk through and

were trespassing, and didn't deserve, the lengthy prison sentences that

they got and, solitary confinement and the treatment they received.

so I think, that he said he was gonna do it.

I'm not shocked that, he did it.

I just, think that there would better way to do it would've been on a

case by case basis, go through it.

Some people have said that would've taken a lot of time.

I used to run a crash review board.

We'd review, A couple hundred, crashes a month.

we could get through that with 12 people in a week or two.

And I think that just would've been a better way to do it.

But, I honestly do believe some of those people deserved, to be pardoned,

with the way they were treated.

and again, other people, deserve to be held accountable, for what they did.

I, we, it's very well stated there, there's people today

that are doing armed robberies that, are let out without bond, right?

And you've got people there that simply trespassed or disorderly conduct, and were

in solitary confinement or right confined.

I think the, good thing, at least for the people that deserved, some time

and that did assault your officers, at least they spent some day, some jail

time for sure before that happened.

Yeah, because, the, some of the injuries, I know a

Montgomery County officer that won't return, and we got a Capitol Police

officer and won't return to service.

It just, it wasn't necessary.

We didn't, but anyway, I don't know what the, those people that were involved in

that, what their, their motives were.

But, again, like you said, some people deserved it, some people didn't

deserve the, the extensive time.

And, I've been in policing in D.C. for 30 years.

I've never seen, jail sentences like that.

in my entire career.

One of the problems though in this country is that we are not tough

enough on those who do assault, police officers and, that's a, sin really.

It's disgraceful that we don't support our officers, in, those situations.

So clearly there is a a line, of distinction as you point out between some

of the rioters who were not assaulting officers, but certainly others did,

and, they deserve to be, to face the toughest penalties, I believe personally.

Steve, I'm interested in this, you've been through a lot in your career, and then you

had to face maybe your toughest challenge, of your career on January 6th, 2021.

What advice would you give to, other chiefs who might face a similar crisis?

Sometimes politically motivated, but any crisis along the lines

of the, type of riot or situation that you had to deal with.

Wow.

That's interesting because I've been thinking a lot about what our

chiefs are going through right now.

Chiefs really need to focus on the reason they're there, to

provide, to protect the community.

take bad people off the streets, and look out for the men and women that

are doing an incredible job, out there.

Really focus on that and keep politics out of it.

And I'm gonna get to your question here in just a sec. big concern I have

right now is when you look at, what, how the, a whole hiring process for

chiefs right now, you get the city council or a mayor, they'll, they're

the ones hiring the, hiring firm.

So they set the standards, they set, why they wanna get the person in there and are

you hiring chiefs for the right reason?

You wanna make sure you get chiefs in there, like I said,

to, protect your community.

Take bad guys off and help, put 'em before the judicial system.

And make sure the men and women that are working for them are getting properly

trained, equipped, and put out there.

I would, I'd say any chief that's faced with a critical incident like this, be

very cautious of who's giving you advice.

Everyone's gonna give you advice based on what they're looking to get out of it.

That's something I look back on, different people that came to

me even, within my close circle.

That came to me with some advice and wondering why did they gimme the type

of advice that they gave me at the time.

Like I told people if I, if, I knew then what I know now,

I would've never resigned.

Just be prepared.

You never know.

It could be a traffic's not gotten bad.

It could be not even something your officers do.

It could be, something that, that comes up on social media, that had

nothing to do with an officer's action.

Next thing, your day's turned upside down and your whole career is online.

Just, be prepared.

Have a core group of people that you trust absolutely that you can go to.

You trust their opinion, and have 'em on speed dial, and be ready to talk to them.

But, just ultimately make sure that if you do, if the stuff hits the fan, sit

back, analyze it from a distance as best you can, take care of yourself 'cause

you're gonna go through some tough times and take really good notes, because

ultimately you, you are gonna look back.

It's gonna be crazy for a little while.

But then when you finally, start, being able to think a little

clearly, you are gonna wanna make sure that you did everything right.

and if you didn't but just make sure you're keeping really good notes, and be,

You know, Steve Sta Yeah.

Saying all this, I just wanna say, Nothing is more important than

leadership and a strong leader that's that has the backs of their people.

And unfortunately, the politics are so ingrained in all this

that's just not happening.

You're looking around the country at different incidents and that chiefs

are being hired because of their ethnicity, their sexuality, whether

they got a D or an R behind there.

Their name and, and they and the people that are the political.

Leaders want those people to be their lackies basically.

And somehow or another, we're gonna have to get around that.

We're talking about chiefs, and this is an interesting question and nobody

probably has more insight than you for all the years that you worked at Metro D.C.,

but the chief right now is stepping down from Metro D.C. and has been accused of

cooking the books and not reporting crime statistics fairly, basically covering them

up and that report just recently came out.

I wonder what you think about that.

So my, concern is, when you look at crime and the

statistics, it's way too subjective.

And I've talked to officials on the, on the department, some of

the officials that were testifying.

I've, talked to matter of fact, down on the hill, about this.

And when you look at it, The chief needs to realize, and whoever was pressuring

the chief, if someone was, but the chief needs to realize, their number one job

is to protect the community, to take bad people off the streets of the community.

If you've got a crime problem, you gotta face that crime problem because,

I hate to say it, by going through and there's a city council, leg had

passed legislation that allowed almost for an intermediate type of charge,

from what I understand, that someone could say, Hey, this person was, shot.

That's for, me, I look at it, that's A-D-W assault with a deadly weapon.

That's gonna be, a DW violent crime.

It's gonna go on your stats.

They could change it to a, unlawful endangerment charge.

What the hell is that?

So you're now going to have an unlawful endangerment charge.

So if you find a suspect, what do you charge him with A-D-W

or unlawful endangerment.

And is he gonna be taken off the streets?

'cause now he's not gonna be part of your part one offenses, things like that.

You're not doing your citizens the justice they deserve.

So by watering down charges and making your city look safer, and I don't think

this is just gonna be Washington D.C. I think you're gonna see this in other

areas because it's too subjective.

You're doing it, it's extreme disservice to your community.

You're allowing, criminals to walk free.

You're, allowing the community not to realize and just how unsafe it is.

And people have always said, crime's down 24% violent crime in

Washington D.C. It sure doesn't feel that way because they were right.

The perception was it was still a violent city.

And they're now finding out that if you look at the FBI part one offenses,

violent crime was actually up, what, 1.6%.

So the, their perception was right.

So regardless, people's perceptions, tells everything, by cooking, cooking

the books or whatever you wanna call it.

Pressuring, some of the, some of the officials and, again, when you have seven.

District commanders come down and seven district commanders

all testify to the same thing.

There's where there's smoke, there's fire.

So I, think there's something to it.

I'm thankful when I was at MPD and I was a, commander, I ran

their special operations division.

You notice they call down the seven patrol districts, not the commanders

special operation because that's just, we don't, keep crime stats.

We don't report crime stats because that's just not what we do.

And I'm just awfully glad right now that I was never in that position.

Let me track that.

My, lemme track back to the answer you gave to Craig.

Steve, he asked you what advice would you give to chiefs, these days?

And, the political situation is what it is.

I don't know if we're gonna change that anytime soon.

Unfortunately, it is what it is, but I got a high, I don't want

this to get lost in what you said.

You just gave a, about a, two minute course on leadership.

Okay.

I teach a lot of leaders in my private practice.

I consult with a lot of businesses.

I'm gonna take what you said, if you don't mind.

Can I take that?

Sure.

Absolutely.

have the core group around you that you trust?

Yeah.

Oh yeah.

Who do you trust?

And that's a damn that sounds like an easy question, doesn't it?

That's not an easy question.

Who do you trust?

No, it's not.

And analyze the situation.

Sit back.

most of the people that I work with, they're not in life or death situations.

Nobody's gonna die.

But the business may be in jeopardy, jobs could be in jeopardy.

So there's some, consequences.

But if you, as a police chief can pull back, sit back and say, okay,

what the hell's going on here?

Can't a business owner do the same thing instead of just reacting?

And how many of them just react?

I like the idea about notes, and your book, which we've

referenced several times.

Your book is an absolute tribute to the notes that you

took because it's all there.

What is wrong with some of our business owners?

They're not taking notes.

They're not making records.

I always had a saying when I was running businesses, if it isn't

in writing, it didn't happen.

It didn't happen, so I just wanna highlight that because, that

was a mini course in leadership and wow, lesson learned.

You ought to be out there on the stump speaking to leaders.

That's, we gotta put you out.

Dennis, the other thing that I took away, from what he said was, and

this is particularly true, I think, in public safety and law enforcement, when

you have to deal with a crisis that, overwhelms your officers, your department,

you have to have relationships with you.

Or neighbors, other colleagues and other jurisdictions nearby

so they can come to help you, and come to rescue you if needed.

And thankfully Steve had, as you said at the introduction, 30 years of law

enforcement experience, he had built.

All these contacts and relationships, and he was able to rely on them

when he needed them the most.

I know that's ultimately in our last interview, what you deemed to be the,

the answer to, the crisis was you were able to get help from your friends at

neighboring, law enforcement agencies, and they ultimately saved the day since

you weren't able to get the National Guard that you wanted in the first place.

Steve, I, wanna maybe draw some conclusion here.

But I don't want it to end without you talking about the impact this,

January 6th episode the aftermath has had on you personally, on

your family, on your career.

we all agree that you were, the scapegoat, you were basically

dismissed the day after January 6th.

You didn't have a chance to do a, debrief, to, get to the bottom

of what happened, what could we have done differently, et cetera.

You were let go.

And it hurt you personally in, in a big way.

I know you're a great man.

You've handled it beautifully, very gracefully, courageously.

But te tell our audience, what it was like to have to basically, be

dismissed the day after all this happened and, you lost a pension that

you were gonna soon be eligible for.

Your reputation was tarnished, certainly by a lot of what was said in the media

and a lot of the political, undoing, if you will, help us understand

where you are today and, some of the injustice that was done to you and what

we're trying to do to get it right.

Wow.

Wow.

Yeah, I look back on it.

There's, it, Lot, lot of impact.

It's interesting when I 12:53 when we get attacked on West Front

and I start making those calls and I'm not getting the support I

thought would be an easy support.

I, like I said, I felt a shock go through my body and only recently do

I feel that has really re reduced.

I used to almost think, Hey, it's almost gone.

we start talking about it now and I can, I, can feel it start rising back up.

Just anxiety and stuff like that associated with it.

So it's there, but yeah.

When you think about your family, you think about your wife, I would,

that'd be another thing I'd say, whether it's a business leader,

whether it's a chief of police.

Do not underestimate the impact your job is gonna have on your, family.

Please do not underestimate that for a minute.

It, it had an individual impact on all my kids.

I had, two kids that were, under under the age of 18 at the time, one daughter

that, was, right around that age, that it impacted all of them differently.

And I've had a chance to talk to them.

And I talked a little bit about it in the book, with it,

but don't underestimate that.

For me, again, that a lot of communications.

Thank God I'm a, big family man.

I'm a, man of faith, that have helped me through it.

for me, you talked about, getting stripped out the very next day.

I, that was what it was so perplexing to me.

Why so quickly, why the quick hatchet job, not involved in any after action,

not involved in any of the use of force, anything like that, and, pulled

away and literally just cut off.

I, I'm very thankful.

I've got a core group of officers that reached out to me regularly,

that helped me out a lot.

But, just be prepared for that.

exercising can help me through.

You talked about the, pension.

I'm still working to, try and get it back because, ultimately they, they came

back, the 17 law enforcement agencies.

I called in and again, I can't stress enough the importance of

those relationships 'cause my, law enforcement brethren we're asking,

do you have an emergency declaration?

It is just abiding by the law.

They were like, where do you need me?

How quick?

So when you, look at that, the very next day, I'm pulled out.

lose the, the retirement.

the 17 agencies I called in, end up getting awarded.

And here I am sitting, all alone at home and we're gonna try and

get that, that pension back.

So I've got a number of members of Congress.

I was just back on the hill, week before last, meeting with

another member of Congress, trying to get some more people behind.

You know them, coming back saying, Hey, I was the one guy that tried

to prevent January 6th in advance.

I was the one guy that tried to prevent it while we're under attack.

And I'm the one guy that actually was publicly held accountable

and stripped outta my position.

Something, I'd like to see some type of correction there.

we'll see.

I just, honestly, I think this is gonna take a little bit of, support from

the executive office of the president.

I know Speaker Johnson's office is aware of it and, don't seem to be

getting a whole lot of support there.

So, we'll see what goes.

I mean, Steve, ultimately don't you feel, and truly I think a lot

of people that pay attention and have half a brain realize it was just part of

the plan and you were collateral damage had nothing to do with you personally.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And again, I, one thing I'd also tell leaders never take anything personal.

I, try to take it personally.

It's interesting because, we now know and, the chief that took over

after me, Tom Manger, has actually come out and he testified that was

absolutely an intelligence failure.

Yet you're gonna take the assistant chief that ran intelligence and make her the

acting chief after you get rid of me.

You sit there and you wonder, why did it work out that way?

That just doesn't make any sense.

I'll say it because she was a DEI appointee.

Come on.

We all know this.

If you look at after action reports, what are

the, two things you always see?

You always see communications is an issue and intelligence.

If that's the case, bring somebody in from the outside, bring a former chief,

somebody like that, make them acting.

If that's the case, absolutely, but keep the other people there

so you can actually have access to 'em and do a proper investigation.

Don't try to elevate this person into a take a position.

Then when she doesn't get the position, you're gonna give her a

job somewhere out in California.

It just, it gets really suspect the way that kind of played out.

Do you think?

But, again, you I, still think policing is a very

honorable and normal profession.

I'm thankful for groups like, like Craig and your team with Citizens

Behind the Badge, what you do.

They need as much support as possible, but we need, good

leadership in these positions.

Whether it's, the City Council, whether it's the Capitol Police Board, they

oversee them, give them a fair shake,

treat them appropriately.

And if something doesn't go right, investigate it a fact appropriately.

If people need to be held accountable, hold 'em accountable.

But do an appropriate investigation, and, correct the problem.

And, I still, to be honest with you, don't think that's ever occurred,

down on the Capitol for January 6th.

Steve, today, as we said, as we sit here and talk specifically,

are you happy Camper is life good?

So my son's asked me, wow, dad, you you, got a book out there.

I guess January 6th wasn't all that bad.

I would've, I would turn back the clock in a heartbeat, in an absolute heartbeat.

I'm, am I happy camper?

It's still, I think about it every day.

I really do.

I wish it, never occurred, which it never, was a part of my life.

But it, happened.

So we're gonna try and we're gonna, we're gonna move forward.

The things that are happen that are beginning to happen now are, big, change.

I'm working with some companies doing some stuff to really try and address

some of the biggest issues facing law enforcement and, in, our security right

now, which I, I, and joining, you talked about, Dennis, leadership, I get some

requests to go out and talk to people about leadership and I love that.

I love getting out and, talking to folks.

and whether it's about J-6 or it's about, special event management,

national special security events.

Things like that.

I like that.

So I like the change that is now, here we are five years later, beginning to happen.

And, I really enjoy that, that's, that, that's, that's where I'm

getting back into my stride.

Good to hear you deserve that.

You deserve that.

You said, something that hit me again.

don't take it personally.

That's great advice.

But it's real hard to do, isn't it?

It's real hard to do because damn it is personal.

It is personal and it's very hard to remove yourself

sometimes from that situation.

So I give you all the credit for being able to do that.

You've had to do that.

And I understand it's still with you, but somehow you have figured

out a way to move without it.

And I predict things are gonna get better and better for you as time goes on.

So that, that's what I, feel.

But I want, I wanna thank you again.

We're gonna have to build you your own studio.

You've become like a regular on this podcast.

Come on Craig.

Let's build Steve a studio.

Yeah.

for it.

He's, my favorite guest.

sure.

You, he does it so well.

What can I say other than thank you for sharing at the

very level of your heart and soul.

You, we asked some tough questions and you gave us some real authentic

answers and that's what our audience on this podcast likes.

They liked the truth and we promise to bring them the truth.

I've always told people, I'll answer the

question as best I can if I can.

I'm gonna tell you why I can't.

I don't have the knowledge.

I'll be, honest about it.

I don't think there's ever a question we've asked you in

the hours that we've spent with you that you haven't tackled and given.

Again, the best answer you can give, and that's all we can ask.

That's all you can do.

So, I want to thank you on behalf of, Billy and Craig and Citizens Behind

the Badge, thanks for joining us again.

This is always informative.

We always get behind the scenes when we talk to Steve Sund.

We don't just get the surface right, we get behind the scenes,

especially when er starts asking all those hard questions, man, I'm

glad he is not asking me questions.

I'd be afraid.

Again.

I, appreciate it and I appreciate all the, the support and, the work.

you guys do, honestly.

The, men and women that are out there patrolling every day, and, Craig,

I know you're just down with the National Transportation Highway Safety

Administration talking about the threats to our officers just when they're

patrolling, the number of officers that are involved in, in, in accidents out on

the highways and things like that, and the number of deaths that's, I was, wow.

I was blown away with the number of deaths we had.

You know it, great profession.

We just need more people like what you guys do.

Awesome.

We appreciate that and I wanna remind our viewers and our

listeners, heroes Behind The Badge is a Frequently Heard podcast and it's

sponsored by Citizens Behind the Badge.

Craig Floyd is our founder, CEO and Chairman Bill Erfurth

and I are founding directors.

You can go to Citizens Behind the badge dot O-R-G and you can find out all there

is to know about Citizens Behind the Badge as Chief Sund just said, join us.

Hundreds and hundreds of thousands of people are joining us every

month to support the men and women of law enforcement.

Citizens Behind the Badge is the leaning voice of the American people in support

of the men and women of law enforcement.

And you can get involved at the click of a button, Citizens

Behind the badge dot O-R-G.

Subscribe, follow, like all of the above.

And by the way, when you do that, you become an insider.

Not only do you get to see how to support police, but you get an instant

notification when we drop a new episode, and that's often, and I guarantee

you we're gonna have more and more like Steve, if you like what Steve

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Okay, that's all for this edition up.

Heroes Behind the Badge.

We'll see you next time.

Thank you.

Thank you.