​I think maybe another time in my life I may have brushed Bitcoin off, but it was very easy for me to accept Bitcoin because I'm familiar with big systems not working on a really large scale and that can be hard to come to terms with and really disillusioning.

Hey, everybody. Welcome to Orange Hatter. Before we dive into my conversation with our guest today, I want to share with you a very exciting project, the Orange Hatter Women's Retreat. The mission of this retreat is to create a nurturing sanctuary where women in the Bitcoin space can connect with each other, recharge batteries, find grounding, and form deep friendships so that you don't feel so isolated where you are sharing the potential of Bitcoin with the world while keeping an eye on the fiat system. This retreat is going to be absolutely amazing. I am partnering with the Yucatan Project in Mexico. The details will be rolled out later this week. Keep an eye out on Twitter at Orange Hatter Pod. I'll give out more information as they are finalized. Spaces are very limited, and they're going to fill up fast. So sign up for it when the registration and I will see you in Mexico. And now we're going to. Continue with our podcast. Here is my conversation with our wonderful guests today. Welcome to Orange Hatter JB. It's so wonderful to have you here. Thank you for joining us and sharing your Bitcoin story.

thank you for having me. It's really excited to talk to you because I just just recently saw you in person. So it's very familiar coming back after grassroots.

Yeah, I'm so glad we got to meet each other in person. Get to know each other. better. And now I get to share your story with our audience. So very excited. Let's start by just telling us a little bit about your background.

So, right now I work as a physician assistant. I work in a local hospital, small hospital. My, sub specialty is in psychiatry, which is, consult liaison psychiatry, and we, we work a lot with people who, are hospitalized on the medical floors or maybe coming for triage in the ER.

you were sharing some feelings about your professional experiences, even before you came across Bitcoin. Would you mind sharing a little bit about that?

Yes, so I worked at another hospital in, um, I've worked various jobs over the past years. the longest thing in psychiatry and, a few, several years ago, I saw some folks and coworkers have adverse effects to some of the things that are required to work in the medical industry. And I was really looking into nutrition and more holistic ways to try and help my patients. I felt like I kind of maxed out what I could do with medications and I was reading a lot about nutrition, a lot about functional medicine and then kind of. I had some experiences where I saw some folks have some adverse effects that should have really been minor and statistically, I probably never should have seen if the stats were right on those adverse events. And so that got me really curious and looking closer at some things and traditional Western medicine. And I think, I just realized that there is a lot more that can be done. I think from a lifestyle food approach, we don't get much nutrition in medical school. I was really kind of naive about that. and I think there's, I think we're waking up to, there's a lot that we don't know that we don't know, in Western medicine that maybe other disciplines kind of have the jump on us in terms of nutrition and. And that sort of thing. but also the people I work with are really smart. They're very intelligent and well read. and so it was kind of this moment of disillusionment where it was like, how can such a big industry like this be missing some of these things that are so simple? and I think. That led me to look further at, where the funding comes from in the medical world. And, potential conflicts of interest in terms of our education, who, who funds our journals and, and those types of things. And, um, I think the statement I was making to you earlier is that trying to understand how that happened on that scale, and how maybe we've overlooked some things like diet and lifestyle, really primed me, to maybe accept. That there's issues like that things going on on a scale in our government and our, our banking industry. and so. When I learned more about Bitcoin, and when I paid more attention to Bitcoin, it was very, I think, maybe another time in my life, I I may have brushed Bitcoin off, but it was very easy for me to accept Bitcoin because I'm familiar with big systems, not working on a really large scale, and that can be hard to come to terms with, and, and really, disillusioning, or, cause a lot of disillusionment if you have been living in another larger market. or making other assumptions.

So when you started exploring things like nutrition, diet,

That's a great question. Initially. I think I've always been a detail oriented person. I think people always advise me not to overthink things. So people are kind of accustomed to me going down rabbit holes, you know, and that's why I work on a medical service or work with the medical services like I do now. I enjoy that. Uh, you know, for me, it was more of a personal experience. I was, uh, reading about different nutritional protocols. the Walsh protocol is one. I really, I wound up doing his conferences and CME. I really enjoyed that. And so what was happening for me was I was eating better. I was cutting some things out of my diet. I was supplementing a few things like minerals and B vitamins and just really seeing this amazing change in my short term memory. and that was helping out my anxiety. I probably was the person that you could Spin in the ADHD anxiety categories and that just really helped it transform for me. and so, you know, everything we do in western medicine is evidence-based, and you have to be really careful about doing anything that there isn't good published literature for. But I was trying to show up at work in my own way and be like, wow, this is really working for me. And I've, cut out all medication and I'm sleeping better and I'm dreaming better. And, you know, honestly. People were like, oh, that's great. But when I tried to really be more specific about what was happening and direct people towards books or things like that, nobody, nobody believed me, you know, they just kind of had me on the head and I felt like, gosh, I'm really feel like I'm shouting this from the rooftops. Like, this could be really great and I think that I wonder if maybe there's some part of our training in Western medicine that sort of leads us to dismiss the power that. Just those simple changes can have. It was not, I don't want to say it wasn't, well received in that sense, but I think it was just more dismissed. I think people thought it was really overstating the benefits that I was getting and also I think kind of the assumption that like, if that was that great, we would have figured it out by now, you know, it would be in all the journals. It would be in all the literature. and so that. I think that's a really long explanation. and I think everybody has to come to their own conclusions to why that's maybe that, you know, we don't have an emphasis as much. I think it's starting to happen. We're seeing a big push and integrative and functional medicine and there's a lot of people in that that have a prescribers license or a medical license that are adding that into their practice and taking a closer look at it.

Were you allowed to talk about it with your patients or were you forced to keep that information to yourself because the association that you're part of maybe doesn't support that or condone the sharing of outside information

Um, you know, I think there was there were certainly we have we have students a lot in the hospital or is that so we would do literature reviews and look at the quality of data for things like simple things like supplementing magnesium or things like that and it's just not sometimes this may have changed several years ago. It's not as robust as say, like a cardiology study or something where. You can scale that and, and really look at something that's a one or a zero. It's hard sometimes in psychiatry to get hard figures. So I think people did entertain the idea of doing a literature review, but there's not always an abundance of literature in the traditional journals out there. That's robust. That really has a high end and is really done well, and so, you know, somebody could always make the case that, oh, there's not, there's not good evidence for that. It's very easy to say that and be right. and so I think people have to kind of ask the question, well, why isn't there good evidence? Why aren't we doing more robust studies? And I think that's really where, you know, I leave it up to everybody to kind of decide, and do their own, you know, such an overused phrase, but do their own research on that 1, and kind of that's just food for thought, but I think if, you know, having that conversation with people about. Thank you. Really simple things like cutting out sugar and caffeine in their diet and just really practical things that I think anybody Can get behind definitely was something that I became more had a lot more conviction about But as far as really specific protocols, I did actually pay to fly one doctor with me To the conference I want to say and I can't remember he he wound up I think eventually go out into private practice and do that in private practice Last that I heard, but we haven't we haven't been keeping up together.

the reason I ask is because I had a friend who was a pediatrician and in order to practice, you have to be a part of the American Pediatric Association. And I remember meeting up with her when my oldest daughter was four months old, and she said Tali the back of her head is flat. And I said, okay, I don't, you know, I don't know what shape. I mean, it just looked like a head to me. But she said, she said, Tali, her head is flat. You need to sleep her on the side. And I said, but my pediatrician emphatically told me from day one that I need to sleep her on her back. And she said, she's restricted to follow the American Pediatric Association. She could not tell her patients who were coming into her practice with babies with a flathead to sleep them on their side. But she said, I'm telling you right now, my own children, they sleep on their side because If they sleep on their back, their head will be flat. And then you see these kids being pushed around strollers wearing those helmet

Yeah,

trying to reshape the head.

yeah,

So she said her hands are tied. She can't tell her patients what she's doing herself with their kids because she would get in trouble and she would lose her license. But she said in private, I am telling you, you need to sleep your baby on the side. So I'm just wondering if there's something like that in. Your specific area that prevented you from sharing outside information, about using nutrition or diet to improve psychiatric condition. I'm just trying to understand if there are parallels that we can be drawn here.

I think so, I think the general answer to that question is yes, I think there is some testing you can do to sometimes support nutritional. Interventions, it's hard because the protocols that are in the, maybe, like, the private arena, the standard lab that you're using, they may use 1 reference range is normal. And then your protocol may say, okay, a different number is not normal. And, you know, your hospital lab is going to call it as they, as they see it. And so. yeah, I think especially as a, as a physician assistant, I'm practicing under someone else's license. I'm, I have a supervising physician and so I won't step outside of what they're comfortable with. And I was, I was fortunate at the time to have actually worked with a physician who had owned a, like a supplement store and had been in the integrative arena at another point in his life. So he was really accepting, of my views, but I think clinically we have to practice evidence based medicine and, you know, there is a downside to supplements and things like that too. They are powerful. And so people can also not tolerate them. and so I certainly didn't want to give someone something that. Okay. You know, can have untoward consequences and then have them be even more anxious or feel worse and then leave the hospital and then not have someone to follow up with. So I would say at the time I treaded it very lightly with that. and definitely stay within reason of what's in the published literature and what's accepted as general. You know, general medical recommendations. I was and still am very aggressive about checking for things like B12 deficiency, things that are really generally accepted to cause psychiatric illness and can be great mimicers and look like, look like different things. And so I think at work, people know if they're consulting and they just like, go ahead and order the B12 level, they're like, Oh, JB, we're just gonna put this order in now because she's going to come do it if we don't. And so that's great. I'm glad to have that influence. Thank you. and so I go for kind of the low hanging fruit on things like that, and then just talk to people about generally accepted diet and lifestyle and cutting out things that maybe could be undermining them, especially in terms of anxiety and things like caffeine and that sort of stuff.

Cool. Okay, so now let's talk Bitcoin.

Yeah.

first hear about Bitcoin?

Oh man, this is, this is, so my Bitcoin story is a little embarrassing. I, I heard about Bitcoin way back when I had friends in college that were mining Bitcoin when it was, fractions of a penny. and so I, but I really did not understand what it was and they mentioned it in passing and I was like, oh, that's cool. My super computer nerd friends are doing this interesting thing and they sort of framed it as like, if you. if you're in another country, maybe it's unsafe. You can have this electronic wallet and no people can't rob you. And I kind of sort of understood it. And I was like, well, that's cool. And maybe, maybe one day they'll be able to use dollars, you know, and it had no clue, just totally checked out pre med student, not really into politics, not really into banking, econ, finance, I liked history, but didn't really know it, from that standpoint and then, You know, I had, I had done a fellowship in psychiatry at one point. and I had tried to check out and do something totally different, which was trade stocks. So I knew a little bit about trading stocks. And then when I got further along in my career, I started looking at retirement in the meantime, the 2017. Run had happened. And, so I had heard about that just by way of knowing people that had been early miners and, it was on my radar then. I still didn't realize it was something that I could buy on an exchange. I didn't know anything about that. And then, but I did want to retire someday. And I was recognizing that inflation was taking a toll on my life, but just didn't really have the words for it. And I kind of did the whole Dave Ramsey thing. I did the whole, you know, learn about index fund investing. And that was cool, but it just didn't seem like it was going to get me where I wanted to go. and so then I started looking at. Different things like managing my own retirement portfolios, all the things they tell you not to do and looking at different stocks and following the market. And I think two things that happened, one is, I was reading a book on how the market moves and how volume moves the market. And there was a book that was about who moves the world it was about insider trading, I guess you could say, or presumed insider trading in the market and how they were able to witness that and, what markets look like before they crash. And I just thought that was absolutely fascinating. And then separately, one of the stock picker guys that I was following was really talking about Bitcoin a lot. And so it's interesting because traders get a lot of. People don't like traders in general, or they say, somebody wins the trade, you know, there's a losing side, but, traders are interesting people. and I think it's, it's in a way, it's like a sport to them. They really train for it. You really have to be aware in your mind of what you're doing. So you don't sabotage yourself. Um, and they read a lot about the fundamentals of companies and they certainly know about things. Like potential insider trading or corruption in the stock market. So, finally I had read about Bitcoin and I came to the Bitcoin standard and I read that and then I read the creature from Jekyll Island. and I had actually joined the trading room, the options trading room and seen firsthand, big block trades, essentially move the market. And. I had seen them trade early before events. I had bought, Tesla, I'm going to say in, in 2014, and really didn't know what I was doing. I mean, I want to be clear the whole time. I had no clue what I was doing. Um, and that's probably still true to some degree, but, you know, Tesla had, had Stock split five times and gone up. you know, it would have been an insane ROI had I held on to it, but you know, Jim Kramer had really gotten after Tesla and kind of dogged it out on the television. And I was up, you know, like, I think my ROI was like, 300 percent or something. And so I thought, Oh, it's Tesla. They're ruined. I'm you know, sell my stock or whatever. And then of course, we all know what happened after that, split five times and rallied to almost a thousand dollars a share. Yeah. And so I had become aware, that certain people hold the view that. Influencers in the market can sometimes be used to create exit liquidity for big hedge funds or big institutions. And I had become aware that you can't always believe what you see on on television. And so I was so curious, and this now was COVID had started to happen. And so the lockdowns were happening and I had more free time on my hands. And so I was in and around these options trading room. I was not trading options. I'm not that good of a trader I have no business going anywhere near them But I could actually see in real time what was happening and and watch the news cycles And then see the trades Happening big block trades happening. And so that was again really kind of a period of disillusionment and then at the same time in that same vein during COVID, Jack Mallers was launching Chivo Wallet in El Salvador and, doing all these interesting and wonderful things. And so COVID was a really dark, dark time for a lot of people. It was difficult working in the hospital and, it was difficult accepting that maybe things weren't the way I thought they were in the world. And. Bitcoin was this really cool, area of light to focus on where it's like, Hey, maybe there's a way out of these inflationary cycles. so I started going to our local meetups. And I met our organizer there that organizes our local meetup. I now help him co organize, but really the creature from Jekyll Island, you know, I went upstairs one day and read an insane amount of that book. I still, I don't think I've actually finished it, but the majority of that book and it just came downstairs a completely different person. I don't know. Have you read that? You have. Okay. So you know what I'm talking about.

I have not. Scott read it. And every night he would rant about

Yes.

so I feel like I read it, even though I didn't. Now I'm just, I don't want to be depressed. You know, it's a, it's

Right,

there when you start looking at our monetary system, even with Bitcoin, it just gets very depressing. You just start to question human nature, you start to question intentions, because I tend to like To think that most people are good. most people want to do the right thing. And when you read books like that, you're just like, really? Seriously? Yeah.

So needless to say I came downstairs a completely different person and I'm from the South, bless, bless my poor ex partner's heart at the time. He was just like, what happened to my girlfriend? You know, I really do have sympathy for him. But I think probably, I'd love to hear Scott, I'd love to hear Scott's side of this too. because we had to have a safe word in the house in case I talked about Bitcoin too much and finally he was like, Oh my gosh, can we please talk about something else? And so I got like a sweatshirt that said freedom on it. And then the O was a Bitcoin, of course. And then once a week I could go out to my meetup and we were all there leaning on each other. And, everybody was having the same experience. It was like, I just need to get out of the house and go talk about Bitcoin with my friends. And then, fast forward now, I think we're almost 2 years that we initially were meeting weekly because we all really needed that during covid. And then when the, when life resumed, and things have opened back up, we went to bi- weekly, but then still with informal meetings on our week off because. Yeah. there's probably we don't have a really robust Bitcoin theme like Austin often or Nashville do here. There's people that are interested. but it's a small community. And so we really flock to each other. Anytime we get the chance, no one else in our personal lives wants to hear about it.

when Scott really started to pay attention to Bitcoin, he started. listening to all kinds of podcasts. He was reading book after book after book. And he was sending me like three podcasts a day to say, Hey, you need to listen to this. And oh, by the way, here's a book and here are two more and there are three more and just like throwing stuff at me. So our safe word is the hand, you know, like if I put up the hand, that's too much, you know? Yeah. And, uh, but. But it took him two years. It took him two years before he could convince me that Bitcoin was real. And then of course, when I started going down the rabbit hole, I was like, why didn't you grab me

Right. Right.

and sit me down, you know, but I guess I wasn't ready, but he did try really hard. And kind of like what you're saying, we just didn't have. Anybody in our personal life who we could go to to ask questions. I think that would have made a huge difference for me personally, but we had nobody. It was all, all of our learning was from a distance. There was no Bitcoin meetup here. That was

You started your meetup, right? That's right.

Yeah, we started it. Our group is very small. We are still struggling to find local Bitcoiners. I would say almost every single person who's in our meetup right now, we met in Nashville. We would be in Nashville, milling around and we were introducing, where we're from and we'll say we're from Louisville. They're like, no way. We're from Louisville. What? Where are you? And then we'll find out that we're really close. And then when we started the meetup, we were able to get together, but I think I met almost every single person, except for one person Bitcoin Park.

yeah. I love Bitcoin Park. And that was a huge, that was a huge, turning point for me is being there and actually meeting the people that are working in the Bitcoin space and just seeing that really the content of their character., it's amazing. being around other Bitcoiners and particularly at our grassroots where the meetup organizers meet in that Bitcoin park with Rod and Matt and now Harry, that is really a special place. And, coming with my interest in health and nutrition and looking at Western medicine through a different lens. When I got there, everybody else was already doing that. They were like, yeah, okay, yeah, we eat healthy. And I was like, wow, these people already, they know, this is this kind of incorporated into their lifestyle. And I think my favorite thing about those people and often the people that run meetups. Every single person that I've met that runs the meetup is big winners like to know how things work Like they're going to get to things on a very granular Level and look like they're going to go molecule deep and they want to understand how it works from the ground up And also just really well intentioned people in the space And I think if people are coming into the Bitcoin space or have questions about Bitcoin Even if they haven't bought any Bitcoin yet, I think one of the best things you can do is just start circulating in the local meetups in the local communities and just meet the people that are working, the developers that are working on the projects or the people that are building apps on lightning or, doing things to create a circular economy and just let. Yourself be the judge of the content of their character and how you feel around them. I feel really good around other Bitcoiners. I can sit in the corner and not say a word and just listen to, you know, what other people saying in the, in the room and be completely content. And, you know, there's people who disagree in the Bitcoin community, but they can handle that and they can talk about that in a way that's constructive and, give each other a good ribbing and spicy conversation and it's okay, and I think that. when people are speaking their truth and living in their truth, they're not threatened in a time when there's been so much these past few years, that's polarizing and so much that divisive, it's really nice to be at conferences and places around people where they can have a civil disagreement and really have constructive conversation about it and you know that both sides are well intentioned, they're trying to, build something, to support their communities and help undo some of the damage of the inflationary environment that we're in.

Yeah, definitely. okay. So thinking back to those first few months, let's say, during COVID when you were first really diving in deep into, what Bitcoin is and how it works and everything, what was your biggest question or the biggest obstacle you had to get over to be convinced that Bitcoin is real and is something you should pay attention to?

Ooh, that's a really good question. Um, I have to think on that. I can tell you one that I still struggle with right now is, Like I was saying, stakeholders like to understand things I think on a granular level. I am not a developer. I am not a technically enabled person. I can use a smartphone intuitively and I can type pretty quickly, but that's how all you're going to get out of me. And so I think like when things come up like with the ordinal or there's network congestion and. You know, in medicine, I can go back to the books. I can go back to gen chem. I can read journal articles and I have the, basic science understanding In Bitcoin. I don't have that. And so I have to look to other people like our meetup organizer, Craig. I have to look to the tech people to translate for me. What's happening? you know, the box size words. I understood pretty well, but I think understanding how lightning network is going to scale and looking at the hurdles that the. Network it needs to overcome. I think I'm intimidated by that, because I can't look at the code or say, okay, I understand this at this level. And so I think trusting that those problems and that what they're trying to do to make Bitcoin more accessible for daily use and uncomplicatable to borrow a word, I think trusting that, that that's real, that we can do that and that those problems exist, that they will be solved, I think is. I'm much more comfortable with now that I've spent time around people that code and do the developing and I can see how they think and have more discussions about that. So, I think really. For me, it was getting past the fact that I don't understand the technical level of it. And I'm, I'm used to having a nuts and bolts understanding of things that I. Invest into that amount. Or I thought I did, maybe I don't know. I mean, that's that's the whole whole gist of it. But at least at work in my professional space, when I make really big life changing decisions, potentially for me or my patients, I feel like I'm doing it from pretty solid ground. But the Bitcoin network's been up for 14 years now. and so I think that in and of itself is a testament as we see other kind of challengers in the crypto space come and go. that does a lot.

Yeah, I definitely agree with you about having to rely on somebody else to translate. The technology or the, the debates for you so like you said, there are some things in life that we feel like we have a pretty solid understanding and even if somebody introduces a new idea, we have something to go on to evaluate it, whereas in Bitcoin space, it's so foreign and like you said, if you go to, if you spend time with developers, actually, I have been so impressed when I go to the BitDev meetings, how Long term, they have to look down like they have to look 10, 20, 30 steps down the road and have philosophical discussions and debates to code what they're coding now. So these are very intentional people very smart, like you said, and nobody can predict the future, but they do their best. And that's why those discussions where they disagree are so, so valuable, because

Right.

if you disagree, that means you're looking at it from different points of view, and that's actually a richer and better and more big picture way of looking at solving a problem or a potential problem, trying to predict what the their code has to solve down the road. I mean, that's a big job. And the more All right. time you spend with these people, the more, just feeling their energy. Like for me, feeling somebody's energy in person is a big thing. And, uh, you learn to trust that they all have good intentions.

Yeah, I hundred, a hundred percent agree with that. And I think, I have fallen out of step with doing that. Just I've switched jobs eventually and have been working more and I haven't used to drive to Nashville pretty much on a monthly basis and was really keeping up with the current events in the Bitcoin community and just was switching jobs. I haven't been doing that as much, but definitely coming to both the Atlanta conference, the tab conference, and then, grassroots is refreshing on that. And given, you know, back my conviction, not that it was lost, but it was just kind of quiet for a bit. I was like, oh, man. I think Bitcoin has just become so integrated into my life. You know, when you're first into it, you're kind of looking at the price and you're talking about market cycles And then you just kind of come to, as you come to understand what it is and what we're hoping it will do for us, you sort of thought, I don't, I can't remember the last time I checked the price of Bitcoin. I can't really remember the last time I thought about another coin and people, you know, will ask me about other coins. I'm like I'm sorry. I just really can't even tell you. I don't even really have an opinion. I don't follow any of that. And it just sort of fades. I think my entire thinking about Bitcoin has shifted in the past two years. And it's just sort of become a almost way of life, but it's just there in the background. it's something that I, when I came on this podcast, I was like, what am I going to say? That's not depressing. I don't want to say a bunch of depressing stuff and that that is where I turn my attention at the end of the day, like, when I want to reward myself, or I want to take a break. It's like, okay, let's see what's going on. What are people building? What are the developers up to, Was the spicy disagreement this week, you know, and I think that that is definitely been, a ray of a ray of light, in a time when things are really uncertain in our country, that it provides a lot of consistency.

okay. So you went down the Bitcoin rabbit hole during COVID. You've been in this space fully committed now to Bitcoin specifically for about two years. So when you turn around and look at the past two years, how do you see your life has changed because of your involvement in Bitcoin?

Oh, my gosh, girl, I burned it down. No, I'm just kidding. I think I, I look at things very different politically. I kind of always I'm sort of back to where I started with, which is like, I didn't really want anything to do with politicians. They always seem kind of off and weird to me and I still have that conviction. But I do pay attention more to what's being said in the news and at least what people are purporting your platform to be. So I'm probably more of a political person., so the question is, how is my life different, like, how has it shaped my life? I definitely invest differently. I think I have found a financial advisor that is Bitcoin friendly. I have not been keeping up my side of communication there. I need to check back in with him. I did the whole thing. I did the buy a whole coin, lose a whole coin, trusting it to a friend. You know, initially I was looking at other coins because I didn't understand what Bitcoin was. Went through that whole thing. So all the stories, had the old car that you keep don't, so you don't have to have car payments so you can buy more of a Bitcoin. Every, every kind of stereotype. I definitely have, have lived that and, you know, had the big financial loss and doing dumb things. And so now I would say I use that a lot more understanding that my dollars later are going to be worthless. So I finance things where I might not have. I was raised in a family where debt was this really bad evil thing. I really gained a lot of insight into, scarcity mindset and having that mindset around wealth and money. That's definitely something that I think is inherited in our family. Really coming to terms with shame around money or shame with having something or having wealth. That's been really interesting journey that I don't think is over yet. And just looking at longer term things. So, like, I was talking with you before about looking at something like, a car wash for definitely not passive income, but income where that can be, a type of income that can be generating, cash flow, maybe, like, while I'm working another job. And so, just looking at different types of investments, And just, yeah, I mean, just paying a lot more attention. They have that thing. There's people who understand economics and then there's people who work work for them, you know, if you don't. And so I think my focus now is really trying to catch up on understanding economics and finance, but also just feeling really a drift on, How to invest with the Bitcoin being part of, there's a lot of people that just are like all Bitcoin and like they own a house. They are kind of set in certain ways and they just go all Bitcoin. I have friends that have pulled their entire retirement out, cashed it out and put it in Bitcoin. It's definitely not financial advice for me, but, so I think trying to figure out where that is for me in terms of retirement And how, because like you said, it's a very long term, people have a very long term outlook that are investing in Bitcoin. And so, to, I don't think I was very good at visualizing what I wanted that to look like before. So answering those questions has become more concrete. For me, for sure. And then also I had some unpopular beliefs during COVID, tend to take off both sides, so I think for me, it was a very lonely time, my family and I don't see eye to eye on things and we're always going to talk to each other and be around each other. but just definitely. I was an outlier in my work environment, my home environment. We had a personal tragedy in my ex partner's family. That really took a lot of our time and was very stressful. And we ultimately ended up separating. And so there was kind of this void. Where I was adrift from the community I had been in before, and I was always kind of this fringe health person that people were like, oh, that's so cute. And then suddenly I was this fringe health person, and it was like, wow, there's a lot of space here. But I will say that that space is being filled with things that I think fit me a lot better as a person, and I've come to know myself a lot better. I think people found out who they were the past couple years and what they're willing to compromise on and what they're not. And I have a lot of conviction, and I don't think I've ever had that much conviction about anything in my life. when people ask me about Bitcoin, I'm just like, tell me a better idea. I don't have any better ideas, and I think some of the smartest people in the world are working on Bitcoin right now, in terms of the development, I definitely try to get quiet and listen when they're in the room talking and learn as much as I can from them. And I think Bitcoiners are the type of people that if they saw a better idea, they would say so. Or they would entertain in a discussion or a debate. And so far in the past decade or more, that really hasn't happened.

I want to circle back and ask you a question about something you just said that I find very fascinating. You mentioned that your family don't go into financing of any kind. Did I catch that right? Okay. And then you also mentioned that you are trying to reverse a scarcity mindset. So I'm just wondering how you tie those two things to Bitcoin and how Bitcoin is helping specifically.

yeah, that's a, a really good question. So, yes, my parents, I love them dearly. They're from a very hard working community in upstate New York, and they kind of have that, like, you're born, you pay taxes, you die attitude and your value really comes from your job. and they definitely have that kind of mindset, like, if you make money, or if you earn a lot of money, you must have taken something from someone. so I think for me, there was a profound sense of guilt, and this is why I say I do have respect for traders, because if you have any sort of subconscious thing, or, scarcity mindset, with that, it's going to find you in your subconscious when you're interacting with money on such a direct level, and it, it came for me, if I made money trading, I felt guilty. I felt like I had to give it back. and that's something that I still rest wrestle with. I hope that's answering your question. I think Bitcoin helps with that because Bitcoin forces you to look at things on such a higher timeline, such a, a longer time, like 5 to 10 years, and it forces you to really be honest with yourself about what's going on. On in the world, when people learn about Bitcoin, one of the most important things is the education about the financial system. I always say there's two types of people. If you think everything's fine and, and going on well with the government, you probably don't want to talk to me. If you think that maybe some things could be better, or you think that maybe they don't always have your best interest at heart that's probably the person that I'll invest my time. Talking with, and so I think Bitcoin and needing to do something about we all have to figure out in this environment as we move into this post COVID world, lots of money printing, our dollars being devalued. We want to take care of our families, our neighbors, our homes. We have to figure out how we're going to do that. And Bitcoin forces us to one, be honest every day, because you're doing this thing that's contrarian, right? And you're doing it with your money and your livelihood. I personally, I view, Bitcoin for me, it's very, it's almost very divine. It's like this almost like divine intervention and it's very equal in how it treats people. your money is treated the same on the Bitcoin blockchain as say, like Elon Musk's money would be. and so it's very fair. I think there is a spiritual community. There's a thank God for Bitcoin conference. I don't know if I have words for it yet, but those are the people that I'm absolutely the most comfortable around. I think for me, Bitcoin is an equalizer in a lot of ways. And, I don't know how that's going to unfold. but what I have seen is my, some of my friends who are very, you know, cypher punk, it's a one or it's a zero. There's not a lot of space for spirituality there. I think it's interesting that they have, especially in the times that we're living in now, they have sort of felt almost more aligned with people that have a spiritual belief or any sort of religious conviction. I think there's an interesting parallel there. To believe in something that strongly and to be using it for the good of other people and with those kinds of intentions.

Any last recommendations for women who are still sitting on the fence about Bitcoin?

I think I said this early on, but I just want to emphasize, I can't emphasize it enough, going to your local meetup or being around people that are local to you in the Bitcoin community. If you have the patience, the Creature from Jekyll Island is actually a pretty good read, especially once you get past the first couple of chapters, it does a great job of providing, a template or an example of what happens in cultures that fall to inflation. It's just such a good history book, and it'll get you up to speed really quickly. I also am really excited about Lynn Alden's book. I wish I could say I had read it. She's one of my favorite. I mean, there's so many people out there that are so good. You could have a list 100 people long. trying to think of the name of her book, but that's the thing that I'm most excited about. Um,

money.

but thank you. she has a way of presenting complex subjects from a 50, 000 foot view very quickly and easily. I think where you don't have to necessarily have an econ degree to understand what she's saying, so I haven't read broken money yet, but it's definitely on the list and I will, I feel confident about recommending anything by Lynn Alden. And then I think just. Taking time to really understand the trading that our senators are allowed to do, you know, that our, our elected representatives are allowed to do the conflict of interest. There are certain social media accounts that will follow their trade. And just understanding how senators have to report that, if they have to report if they trade in the ETF, understanding a little bit of the nuts and bolts of what moves the market and what our elected representatives are accountable for disclosing, I think will take people a long way. I had no idea about that before I learned about Bitcoin, and then just practical things. The orange pill app is a great way to meet people. I've definitely found that to be worth the investment. and then when people are looking for their meetups, I wonder if you guys have noticed this too. the meetup search function in and of itself is not very good, but if you Google the town that you're in and then like Bitcoin meetup. I think tends to find our meetups faster. A lot of people have searched us using the organic meetup search function and they don't find us. So, I think just be sure to look for a meetup in your area. and then considering going to a really big meetup, like, Tennessee and, Texas, that's such an experience, I think. Still blows my mind every time I go. but yeah, I think those are things that people can do to really get them oriented in the space. And also just buying a small amount of Bitcoin, like 5 and practicing moving it to a hard wallet. even just getting a little bit of skin in the game, your brain will naturally gravitate and pick it up almost by osmosis. Cause you know you have some small investment that will. A lot of people say, Oh, I looked at that so many times. And so I think if people just buy a small amount, your brain will automatically commit you more to reading about Bitcoin.

Great, great suggestions. so meetup. com I have found to be slightly frustrating in looking up groups, just like you said. One caveat I want to just mention is there are a lot of crypto... Meetups that are listed under Bitcoin. So just make sure that when you're reading the description, it says Bitcoin only. Otherwise, it's likely that they are just a trading club.

right. I get hesitant. I don't want to encourage people to trade. I could do a whole nother podcast with you about dumb things JB has done. for sure. Yeah, I think that I think the meetups are a great place to get specific questions answered. like you said, have been barriers for people. In a very supportive environment, I would be shocked if someone went to a meet up and people were dismissive or didn't answer their questions

thank you for sharing your stories. Thank you for sharing all of your experiences, even the mistakes that you've made. I think they, they made you who you are today and they prepped you for this moment. So

for sure. Yeah, I'm making better choices. Yes, you can ask my friends. I'm making better choices. Now. Definitely. I think good things have come into my life since going down the rabbit hole. So I'm very grateful.

Thanks for joining us today If the discussion with our guests resonated with you and you would like to dive deeper into the world of Bitcoin, don't miss out on joining the Orange Hatter Women's Reading Club. The meetup link is in the show notes. Also, if there are women in your life whom you think would both enjoy and benefit from learning more about Bitcoin, please share Orange Hatter with them. Until next time, bye!