Listening

would be my key tip out of all

of this. So the way that I've

always conducted interviews and

have always enjoyed doing them

is that, yeah, of course, you

plan, you prep, you have your

questions, you have your areas,

your topics you want to cover,

but it kind of is irrelevant if

you're not listening to what the

person in front of you is

saying, because they may just

sort of drop something in your

lap that you could never

anticipate or expect, and you

have to then be able to adapt

and follow that lead, because

chances are, it's going to be

way more interesting than what

you'd planned to do if you were

kind of forcing a conversation

or an interview down a certain

way. So listening to people is

always the best you

Katie, hello and

welcome to storytelling for

business, the podcast that helps

you build better customer

relationships by telling stories

your clients are queuing up to

hear. I'm Katie Flamen. I'm a

voice actor and podcast host,

obviously, and I do a lot of

corporate narration, helping

businesses tell their stories,

and I want to help you do it,

too, but hang on a minute. What

is storytelling for business?

What does it mean? What does it

do? And why should you care?

This podcast has the answers.

Spoiler alert, you should care.

I'm interviewing some of the

best business storytellers in

the world who are going to help

you master the magic. And I'm

chatting with regular business

owners too, with normal jobs,

who share their own stories. And

today the podcast is focusing on

podcasts, and we are super lucky

because my guest is popular

culture journalist, writer and

award winning podcast creative.

Natalie Jameson NAT has been

making podcasts since nobody

even knew what they were. She's

a highly skilled and empathetic

interviewer. She's recorded

hundreds of 1000s of hours of

material. She's developed,

produced, released pods for

Spotify, Sony Music and

universal, including the line up

with Sean Keaveney, the hang

with Gregory Porter killing it,

about mental health and music

industry and Leonardo the

official podcast. They're all

brilliant. Check them out. But

Natalie doesn't just work behind

the scenes. She's a pro

broadcaster too. She co hosts

the brilliant best sellers

podcast, talking to authors

about their creative process and

the joy of reading Anne, she's a

veteran entertainment

journalist. You've probably seen

her on a red carpet somewhere,

reporting on all the big award

shows and movie premieres, as

well as hearing her on radio

entertainment news for the BBC

and pretty much everywhere else

too. So

am I feeling

intimidated right

now? Well, thankfully no,

because luckily, NAT is also a

very good friend of mine, and

she's lovely, and I'm really

grateful she's here. So Natalie

Jameson, welcome to storytelling

for business.

Thanks for

having me. And like you're

feeling intimidated. What do you

think I feel like? I'm like, Who

is that person? Is that me?

That is you.

That's what it says on LinkedIn.

So it must be true, right? It

must

be true, I

wrote it. There we are. There we

are.

Okay. Are we

gonna jump in? Nat, you are, as

I said, an incredibly successful

entertainment journalist. So

before we get into all the

podcasting shenanigans, let's

start by giving the audience a

flavour of the calibre of celebs

you've met and interviewed and,

of course, made friends with. So

go on Razzle

dazzles. Well,

I'm not sure I'd say make

friends with because that would

be wholly unprofessional. But if

this is a safe space to drop

some real name clangers, then I

do get to spend about 14 years

of my life working for BBC

Radio, one where my job, if you

want to call it that, it was

quite tough at times, but it was

ridiculous that this was my

life. I would be maybe going to

chat to Meryl Streep in a hotel

room for a bit about her latest

film, and then I'd be going to a

recording studio to chat to Mark

Ronson or Jay Z about their

latest album. And then maybe in

the evening, I'd go see Beyonce

sing at a kind of private, like

album launch thing and repeat

that literally every single day

for more than a decade. And I've

been very fortunate that I still

get to do some of that stuff,

but I've kind of diversified as

well as you do. We all grow up

and want to do different things

with our lives and careers, but

yeah, I mean, I still have to

pinch myself quite a bit when I

think about some of the people

I've spent time with.

So when

people say to me,

or what have I heard you on? And

I never really have an answer,

unless I say, have you done a

health and safety video about

transporting nuclear waste? And

then they go, oh, yeah, that

voice. But vital. What were

critical? Very important.

Actually, what? What would you

say if somebody says, who's the

most famous person, or who's the

one that stuck in your mind the

most, who you've interviewed, or

what was the most memorable so

Dolly Parton

is up there. I got to speak to

her a few times. She's just such

an inspirational woman, I think.

And she's achieved so much, not

just in her music career and her

film career and on television,

but also the philanthropy that

she does and the kind of good

things that she puts back out

into the world, which I. Always

really admired. But yeah, I've

kind of got to do that, whether

it's for five live, who I still

do work for, or radio two, where

I get to do cultural

recommendations as part of Joe

Wiley's show on that, which is

just an utter joy. And, yeah,

any of those things, well, you

know, I got to play ping pong

table tennis with Dave Grohl one

time at his studio in Los

Angeles. I mean, which, that's

unbelievable,

right? I lost,

obviously, yeah, there was one

moment where

I think I'm

actually all right, like, oh,

you know, I can hold my own at,

like, ping pong. And then I was,

I was kind of like, Yeah, this

is going fine. And then Dave bro

started actually playing. And I

was like, okay, just being kind

Yeah, that, I

mean, that's, that's

unbelievable, extraordinary. So

you've done all of that, you've,

you've got all of that. And some

of them, right? They recognise

you when you, when you see them

again, they say, Oh, hi,

Natalie, and things like that.

Go on. Who does that? Well, this

question, the last fangirl

question. I promise, there's

quite a few

people who do that. So there's,

there's people that you know,

you kind of because at the time

that I was at Radio One, there

were some bands that you just

interview all the time, like,

whether it be, I don't know,

Kaiser Chiefs or Stereophonics,

or McFly or Mumford and Sons, or

like, any number of kind of

people like that that you just

see over and over again. Because

each time they brought out a

single you'd probably do another

interview with them. Or, you

know, like actors like Bill Nye,

who is an incredible actor and

really generous and and then I

hopefully, like to think that

I'd always ask slightly left

field questions. So if an actor

is doing 70 interviews in a day,

which is what they do sometimes

at those movie junk it's

literally kind of like, kind of

like four minute turnarounds, 70

of them back to back. Hopefully,

you kind of stick in their mind

just a little bit. I wouldn't

expect them to know my name, but

they might recognise the face or

the voice or the line of

questioning. Hopefully, yeah,

and actually,

that's a key skill, isn't it to

to sort of pivot a little bit

into into the today's topic,

podcasting, it asking questions

that tease out something a

little bit different, or

something memorable, or

something that makes the person

go, oh, I hadn't really thought

about that. That's kind of the

key, isn't it?

It is, but I

think it sort of really plays

into what I know you cover quite

a lot on this podcast, as you

rightly should, is that it all

comes down to authenticity.

Because I think the way that

I've always approached

interviews is that it's never

particularly been about me,

because I've always been

servicing like a different

editorial agenda or working for

somebody like the BBC or

something else like that, and so

it's trying to get out the story

that best serves that audience,

and the things I think people

will be interested in hearing.

And if you're always having that

in the back of your head,

whatever you say is always going

to be different to the next

person, because you're different

from the next person. So I think

really tap into kind of what

interests you, or interests the

sort of vision that you've got

for whatever work or interview

that you're trying to do, and

hopefully you'll always get

something refreshing and

different from the next person.

That's a

brilliant tip. And I do always

say, Who are you talking to?

Who's your audience? But that's

that's absolutely vital with

whatever piece of content you're

producing, actually, if you're

if you're doing some kind of

marketing or media production,

if, if, if your audience isn't

interested, then what's the

point? Right?

Yeah, exactly.

And you know, I when I first got

into journalism and

entertainment journalism,

specifically, it wasn't about

me. It was always because I was

really curious and wanted to

share stories or films or TV

shows or theatre shows or bands

or music that I'd discovered

that I really wanted other

people to find out about as

well, so then I could chat to

them about it. Because I was

that geek that wanted to, oh my

god, like something amazing

happens in this film, in this

particular scene, and I really

want to chat to other people

about it. And there's a really

great recognition when you get

that with an audience or with

people, where you feel like

you've connected on some level,

and, yeah, it's an utter joy,

yeah, and

that's, that's

what you what you were saying

about authenticity, but then

with a real sprinkle of proper

passion about what you're doing

and, and that that's infectious,

isn't it, that kind of

enthusiasm. So it is, yeah,

wonderful. Okay, so sort of

taking that into the podcasting

world. Why are they useful for

businesses?

So I think my

first thing I'd say is that

there's no point doing a podcast

unless it's something that you

truly believe in, that you have

a passion for, or you've got a

clear purpose for what you want

it to achieve. It's such a

cluttered space now I think, I

mean, I've been working in the

podcast space for quite a long

time, you know, as we're saying,

my backgrounds in radio, but

those skills are very

transferable. But you can spot a

mile off if somebody is trying

to jump on a trend or trying to.

To copy whatever formula has

been successful elsewhere and

just sort of do their own thing

on it. It's it's really

transparent when somebody has

done that. And I think the best

thing to do is to really think

about why you want to do it, and

to always hold on to that. So

for example, as you kindly said

in your introduction, I co host

a books podcast called

bestsellers with my friend Phil

Williams, and we set that up in

the first place. We set it up

way back in 2019 because we

wanted to talk to authors,

connect with authors, and try

and tap into what makes them

tick, how the creative process

works for them. Partly that was

selfish, because the pair of us

are both writing ourselves as

well. So we wanted to kind of

mine that knowledge as much as

we could. And why not exactly,

but also because we really

wanted to share that with other

people. So whether other people

listening might want to write

themselves, or if they've just

found that the world of books

can sometimes be a little bit

aloof, or there's a real

snobbery sometimes around the

literary world. And we really

wanted to kind of do away with

that and show that there was no

pretension in it. There was no

one up personmanship. Like, it

doesn't matter if you haven't

read all the Austin's, or if you

had never heard of Austin, or

it's fine. Like reading is good,

and whatever you're kind of

reading and curious about, it

can enhance your life. And so we

really wanted to do that. So

success for us in that podcast

is when we get a listen to get

in touch saying, Oh, I just

listened to whichever episode,

and I bought that book because I

hadn't heard of that author. I

didn't know their story. But now

I'm really engaged, and I want

to find out how the book

unfolds. And that's the joy of

that,

that's spreading

that magic, isn't it, or

spreading that enthusiasm and

making that connection? Yeah,

definitely. So. So the

businesses have got to figure

out why they're doing it. What,

what is the point? They've got

to know who it is that they're

talking to. And it is powerful,

isn't it? It's a very intimate

medium. I think it's a way to

talk to a small group of people,

once you've figured out who that

audience is, if they're your

ideal clients, if that's, that's

your the point of doing it. I

mean, if it's a marketing

exercise, that's, that's why

you're doing it right, and it's,

it's a way to build trust with

them. But I do think podcasting

is is more intimate than a post

on LinkedIn or an Instagram

story and and can you just sort

of speak about that a little

bit? Yeah, so

I think that because you know,

the way that you do it, like we

are having here, I'm just having

a conversation with you. And

don't get me wrong, I'm aware

that there are people that will

be listening to this podcast,

but in this moment, I'm not

thinking about them to the point

where it's going to paralyse

what I might want to say, or

that I might then have an

inauthentic conversation,

because I'm engaging with you,

Katie, right now, so I want to

answer your questions, and I,

you know, hopefully want to have

interesting things to say. So

that's my focus. So you are

being intimate, because you are

very present in the moment the

recording that you're doing, and

that's exactly how you'd be if

you were having a conversation

with a friend. And that's often

how I've looked at interviews

anyway, is that, don't get me

wrong, I'm aware that Jay Z or

Beyonce are not my friends. I'd

love them to be, but

you kind of want

to have not what they told me.

You

want to have

that sort of conversation where

you're you're in that chat.

You're not, you know, thinking

about the next thing you've got

to ask or, you know, you're not

thinking about whatever shopping

you didn't get done so the kids

can be fed later. You are

properly engaging and listening

to the person in front of you,

whether that's on a screen or

just sort of in your headphones.

But you've kind of got to be

very direct with that, and

that's where you get the

intimacy. I think, in terms of

the business sense, it's really

important as well to work out

what success in that podcast

looks like for you, because to

me, it should be different for

everybody. Don't get again,

don't get me wrong, everyone

would like to be, you know,

number one on whatever podcast

chart that you subscribe to. But

the reality of that is that it's

very few and far between, and

it's probably going to be a

celebrity or somebody who's

already got a huge social media

following that they've brought

to a different platform. So you

need to work out what is your

success. So again, like I was

saying for me, somebody picking

up a book who hadn't necessarily

thought that that was an author

for them, great. That is a

success. Love to make some money

from it at some point. But you

know, that's not my key driver

in doing it. So work out what it

is that will make you achieve

whatever goal it might be, and

it could just be an internal

thing that, you know, helps

teams feel connected to each

other. It doesn't have to be on

this huge scale.

That's brilliant.

That's it's really interesting.

I was reminded when you were

talking of another interview

I've done this series with

marketing, magnetic marketing

message mentor and strategist

Jada nizzoli, and she's saying,

your goal is not. To go viral.

Your goal is to connect with

people who are really interested

in what you're saying. Yeah,

and, and I think that's, I think

that's the same. And she was

kind of saying, you know, celebs

or social media crazy

influencers, or people who have

got massive followings exactly

what you just said. So that's

interesting, because she wasn't

talking specifically about

podcasts, but it's the same.

It's the same idea. You don't

want to be trying to reach the

millions. You want to be

passionate about what you're

talking about. And you do, and

just figure out what, what, as

you said, what your goal is from

this piece of work. And

I think sort

of the old media wisdom used to

be that you'd want to try and be

as mainstream as possible,

right? You'd want to try and

attract as big an audience as

you can, and actually in

podcasting and in so many other

areas of business, I think where

things have been successful more

recently, going niche is not a

bad thing like because if you go

really niche, you often find

that you're speaking about

something that ends up being

more universal than you thought

it might be, and then that can

kind of attract a really

engaged, loyal audience. That

might be small, but that's then

the way that it can grow,

because you've kind of, you've

got them on your terms, and

you're all you know, sort of

doing. It's doing what it should

do in the right way, rather than

just trying to kind of do a mass

marketing, mainstream thing

that's so then generate and

pray, yeah, it doesn't kind of

hit, yeah,

yeah. And loyal

is a good word, isn't it, the

successful podcasts do have

loyal listeners, don't they?

Rather once, once people are

hooked in they actually look

forward to the next episode,

which is a big compliment, too.

I think, yeah,

they do. And

you know, another way of

thinking about loyalty is also

rewarding that with consistency,

because that's kind of the name

of the game in podcasting, too,

that people, if they are really

invested in your podcast,

they'll come to know that new

episodes drop on whichever day

of the week you decide you're

going to put out episodes. And

if you can keep doing that

weekly, or at least on a regular

schedule, so that people can get

in sync with when you're going

to release, then again, that's

how you grow an audience, if you

sort of do a short four episode

series, or even an eight episode

series, and then zero on your

channel, zero on your social

media.

Who would do

that, that? Who would release a

big series and then not do

anything for ages? I'm

not saying

that I'm perfect in that either

because life happens, things get

in the way, but ideally, you

know, I was listening recently

to your episode about LinkedIn,

and it is that two way

communication, and it's the

same. Even though podcasting,

you are putting it out there,

you are having a communication

with an audience. So if you have

come to sort of realise that

actually having a schedule of an

episode a week on a Thursday

works best for you. If you

suddenly stop doing that, you

probably need to tell your

audience why you're doing that,

or that you are taking a break,

or that, hey, I'm just going to,

like re upload some other

episodes from a while ago that

you might not have heard, or

just kind of keep that that

channel active in any way you

can.

Don't take them

for granted. No, that's what

that's all about, isn't it?

Yeah. Okay, so there's, there's

two sides to it. There's, you

could create your own podcast,

if you are a business owner,

once you've figured out all the

things we've been talking about,

or you could be a guest on

somebody else's podcast. So, um,

I'm kind of interested in what

the sort of pros and cons are,

benefits, drawbacks of both of

those things, and whether you

can do them both at the same

time, or if you want to, maybe

just focus on one. I mean, what

do you think first of all, if

you said yes, I'm going to set

up my own podcast, and I've got

no experience of this, but I'm

definitely going to do it. What

are the the benefits? We've kind

of talked about what? What are

the difficulties and the

drawbacks of doing that?

I think the

difficulties are, it takes quite

a lot of time, as I'm sure you

know, it's, I mean, we're both

fortunate. We've had a

background in broadcasting, so

some of those skills are very

transferable in this space. But

if it's completely new to you,

even though there are so many

different kind of ways you can

record things you know really

easily with like Riverside or

with Zoom or however you want to

record, it's pretty easy to kind

of click and play on some of

them, but if you want to then

edit that in any way, that's

when it can get tricky and

really time consuming me and

Phil edit our podcast best

sellers that we do, and it takes

a long time. The kind of general

rule of thumb is, if you're

going to go through and listen

to everything, it's kind of a

three to one ratio. So if you've

recorded a podcast that you want

to transmit as an hour long

episode, it'll probably take

three hours to edit that to the

level that you might be happy

with. And again, that's a

commitment if you're not doing

it as part of your paid business

work, if you're doing it as an

additional on top of family

life. And, you know, wanting to

exercise or see your friends or

whatever it is,

eat, go to the

toilet, yeah,

any of that.

And you know, it's very easy to

see. A again, there are lots of

different tools, like Canva and

different ways where you can

make audiograms or little video

snippets and things, but I think

there's a misconception that

they're super quick. Anybody

who's ever tried to do fairly

like intricate Instagram post

might know that if you're trying

to do that really regularly,

it's it's time consuming, and so

you need to just be aware of

that and work out, you know,

what you want to do and how much

of that you want to do. You

might not have to do any edits

on your podcast, and lots of

people certainly do that,

literally, just click record and

then put that out. That's fine,

but if you want to hone it a

little bit more, or sort of, you

know, really direct that

conversation, then it probably

will take some editing, and it's

not quick

and, and you

touched on there the actual,

then the marketing of it. It's

not just the doing of the

podcast. You have to create

audio grammes or little video

clips or posts or whatever. You

have to talk about it, and you

have to repeatedly talk about it

and then keep it going. Yeah. So

yeah, okay. So that's so it's

hard work, is the very short

answer, yeah.

And again, I think always come

back to like we were just

saying, you don't want it to

feel like another drain on your

resources, your own personal

resources that are possibly

quite depleted in the way the

world is right now. So there has

to be something at the core of

the podcast, if you're doing it

in your own time, and if you're

doing it, to do your own

personal brand that brings some

joy to you, you've got

to love it,

haven't you? You've got to love

it. I mean, I'm such a

storytelling loony geek, that's

why I'm doing this podcast.

Basically, I might put that in

the intro for the next episode.

I am a storytelling loony geek.

I

will simply

let you know I'm not gonna lie.

There are some times when I'm

like, I forgot, like, you know

that podcast recordings, you

know we're doing it at nine

o'clock at night because

somebody is based in New York

and, oh, I don't really want to

do it right now, but I've never

left a podcast recording without

feeling better than when I

started it. And I think that's a

good sign.

What a lovely

thing to say. That is definitely

a good sign. Definitely Okay,

okay, so that's that's put a,

put a lovely, sparkly spin on

doing it. What about being a

guest? If you've never been a

guest on a podcast before, I

mean, what? What would be your

kind of three maybe must do's if

somebody said to you, oh, Nat, I

know you're going to interview

me, what are the top three

things I can do to prepare to be

the best guest you could

possibly want?

Okay, firstly,

I'm really bad at math, so I

can't guarantee that this

is going to be three.

Okay, no worries.

Make sure

you've listened to the podcast.

If somebody's reached out to you

first, it's rude if you haven't,

but also, crucially, it might

not be a podcast you want to be

associated with. And you know,

if you're thinking about your

personal brand or your business,

do you are you aligned with the

hosts views? Are you aligned

with the way that they conduct

their business. Does that match

up? If it will come up in any

other conversation down the

line. We're like, hang on a

minute. Weren't you on that

horrible thing, whatever

happened? And you so you do need

to think carefully about that.

You don't have to say yes to

every podcast at all. I think my

second thing would be on a

similar vein. You I do some

media training as well. So this

is where that part of my brain

is like kicking in. Like kicking

in. You always control your own

narrative. So people you can be

on a podcast, and people can ask

you questions like you're asking

me now I don't have to answer if

I don't like that question you

it's perfectly within your

rights to say thank you for that

question. But actually, that's

not. This isn't the place to

have that conversation. Let's

have it another time, or we'll

come back to that, or however

you want to kind of address that

in a polite way. But you don't

have to give up parts of

yourself or your business that

feel intrusive to your brand

that's totally in your control.

You can literally, you know,

work out and that. So that will

kind of move on to my third

point, where do some planning

ahead of the interview and work

out if there is some key

messaging that you do want to

get across in that conversation.

And that's not to say that

you're going to be writing

yourself a script and that

you're going to be very, you

know, kind of

there's nothing

worse than a guest who reads

their prepared answer off a

piece of paper

Exactly. Well,

it's the same. And anytime

anybody's ever done an interview

where something failed and you

have to repeat an answer, it's

never as good the second time

around, either. So you know,

going back to the early part of

our conversation, if you're

trying to engage with people on

an intimate, almost one to one

basis, because most people will

listen to podcasts in

headphones, so in their own

ears, in their head, then you

want to be natural, be as kind

of, you know, carefree and

normal in whatever sense of the

word that is. When you're

talking to them, you don't want

it to sound as if you're giving

them a lecture or if you're

reading off a script. But having

said that, I do think it's valid

to have a few points of whether

it's if it's a new area for you,

so that if you're worried about

a gap in conversation or. Not

knowing what to say that you've

got something you can fall back

on. And, oh, actually, this is a

really good example, a bit like

you do for a job interview, or,

yeah, just have a few things so

when you come away from an

interview, and again, I'm not

that good at taking this advice

myself, but you always want to

feel like you've given the best

version of yourself that you

wanted to in that space at that

time. You never want them to

kind of click off from a

recording and go, Oh, like that.

What that was that one thing I

really wanted to say about my

business or about my brand, and

I just forgot to say it, like,

have it on a little sticky note

next to you. Or, you know, I've

got a Notes app up here with

just a couple of things in that

I can remember to say, because

in the moment, you know, we all,

like, freeze up, sometimes get

nervous. You might forget

something. So yeah, just have a

couple of little things that

will just be comfortable

reminders for you as well.

Brilliant,

brilliant. And I guess some

podcasts, it's not live, live.

So if you, if you mess up, I'm

sure some hosts are completely

happy. If you say, oh, you know,

I'd like to restart that. I'd

add as well. Drink lots of water

beforehand. Don't turn up

hungover if ask them if it's

going to be filmed. So that you

know, because you might be

really fed up with yourself if

you if you look like you've just

been pulled through a hedge

backwards, if it's going to be

clips use video clips. Just,

I'd say on

that as well. If you haven't had

been able to have that

conversation, assume that it is

going to be filmed, because even

if the entire episode isn't,

there might be clips that go

out. So just and then you won't

be you won't be surprised. Yeah,

yeah, expect the

worst. And yeah, I love that.

Your first thing listen to the

podcast, it's like applying for

a job, and they say, Why do you

want to work here? And you kind

of go, oh, which job was this?

So, yeah,

yeah. And then, you know, you'll

know what kind of, if there's

any format to that podcast,

you'll know what's coming, but

also you'll again, this is

something that I used to do when

I would do a lot more interviews

with celebrities, and when I was

kind of started out, you know,

YouTube wasn't really around, so

you couldn't do that. And one of

the most terrifying things was

you'd walk into a room with

somebody and you didn't know how

they would answer. So again, as

a total name clanging example, I

will give you Daniel, Craig,

incredible bond. My favourite

James Bond, but I remember the

first time I interviewed him way

back when, way before bond and

there were no interviews around

that you could easily click on

to research what he's like in an

interview. Many people listening

to this might have heard a

Daniel Craig interview where you

might know he gives literally,

like three word answers. Even if

you ask the most open question

that doesn't allow for a yes or

no answer, he will shut it down

as quickly as possible, or give

a quip, or say, I'm not going to

do that next. And I remember the

first time I had, like, a list

of many questions, and I got

through them in about two

minutes, and was like, This is

terrifying. But then you again,

if you can kind of know the

style of questioning, then

you're fine. You kind of know

what you're you're going into a

conversation with you can match

that energy, you can match that

style, and again, not to kind of

do a disservice to yourself, but

you know, you have to sort of

know what you're know, what's

coming at you, to prepare the

best and give the best version

of yourself.

Otherwise, it

just sounds rubbish, right?

Well,

yeah, and

also, but then it's sort of like

a it's like an effect, right? So

it's like a butterfly effect. So

if you start to then feel

nervous because you didn't know

that this person was very

combative, all of a sudden, you

then feel anxious. You're on the

back foot. You've forgotten your

questions, you might have noted

down your bullet points, you

might have then feel really

flustered. And we've all been

there, totally have been there,

and it's just not a nice

feeling. So you don't want that.

But hopefully, if it's a good

podcast, it should be a very

warm like this one is Katie, a

very warm, welcoming

environment. And you know, you

should come away feeling good

about it, and you should be in a

position where, if you have said

anything inadvertently, it is a

trusted space where you can ask

them to remove that if, if you

need to, and we've done that,

you know, to be honest, I was

kind of this probably shows that

I'm a poor journalist in some

senses, but part of the things

that I would hate it would be

interviewing somebody for a

different editorial agenda, and

knowing that they'd said

something that they didn't quite

mean to say, But hearing as it

was happening, how that would

sound if it was broadcast. And I

would sometimes just take those

bits out anyway, so I wouldn't

then play it to my editor. Well,

that might, might

make you a poor journalist, but

it makes you a very decent human

being. So yeah, I hope so. Yeah.

And those things you were just

talking about, the kind of the

do your research. Don't get

flustered. Figure out in advance

as best as you can that applies.

I think whether you're the guest

or whether you you're the

interviewer, you need to do your

research, kind of both ways. So

because that's that's the best

way to have a connected

conversation, isn't it? Really,

it's kind of, if you, if you get

chatted to somebody, chatting to

somebody. Like in a bar or you

meet someone at a networking

event, the people you talk to

for more than 30 seconds are the

ones who you've got a connection

with, unless it's Daniel Craig,

in which case you just plough

on. I grew

to enjoy

interviews with him very much,

but I would always approach

someone with a slight degree of

armour, very funny, very witty

person in real life, but very,

very quick, just kind of

following on from that, I'd say,

to add to the list of things to

think about not wanting to

overwhelm people, is that

actually listening would be my

key tip out of all of this. So

the way that I've always

conducted interviews and have

always enjoyed doing them is

that, yeah, of course, you plan,

you prep, you have your

questions, you have your areas,

your topics you want to cover,

but it kind of is irrelevant if

you're not listening to what the

person in front of you is

saying, because they may just

sort of drop something in your

lap that you could never

anticipate or expect, and you

have to then be able to adapt

and follow that lead, because

chances are it's going to be way

more interesting than what you'd

planned to do if you were kind

of forcing a conversation or an

interview down a certain way. So

listening to people is always

the best. So

prepare, but be

be prepared to throw it all out

the window and actually go with

the flow a bit more

well. You'd do

the same, right? If you were

having a conversation with a

friend, you know, on a Saturday

night or whatever, and you

thought you were gonna, you

know, do a sort of download on

what'd happen in your life, and

then they suddenly drop a

bombshell about something that's

happened to them at work or in

their home life. It would be,

goes

great to

tell you about

this, this and this holiday I'm

going on, but then, you know,

you'd walk away going, Oh, that

was dreadful. I really should

have heard more about and there

are people that do that. I'm

sure we all have them in our

lives, people, you might say

something like, oh, actually,

I'm having a really difficult

time. And they'll go, great. So

anyway, I'm doing this next

week.

Okay, yes, yeah,

yeah, we all know those people,

don't we, but you don't want to,

you don't want to be that person

on a podcast. No,

not at all.

And also, you know, you learn so

much. I think, Okay, I'm adding

to this list all the time.

Katie, apologies. You learn. Be

prepared that you will always

learn more from other people.

You know, again, that's why I

love doing. What I get to do is

that I am endlessly curious and

always aware that people are way

more interesting than I am. So

that's what I want to uncover. I

want to hear people's stories. I

want to hear what's going on

with their world. And you know,

that can inspire me, then to do

other things as well, but you

know, you won't know if you

don't ask those questions.

So can you think

of any examples of a really sort

of an interview where you

thought it was going to go one

way, and then they then they

gave you that kind of crazy

tidbit or mad tangent that you

ended up talking to some film

star about their love of

cooking, or their pet snake or

something?

I am quite

renowned for my tangents, but I

think they're often the best

things. There was one that came

to my mind that's inappropriate.

Sorry to do that, but I'm not

gonna hand that person on it

here. But yeah, I think there

is. Well, he was somebody who

said something, yeah, actually,

there is. There was an author

that I interviewed recently, and

they'd written this incredible

crime book. It's really good,

and we were having a really

honest conversation about the

writing process. And, you know,

this is a kind of book that's

been, I don't know. There's no

harm in naming this person. It's

Chris Whitaker. He wrote this

book called all the colours of

the dark, which is an incredible

I'm reading

that right now. Are

you? Yes?

Oh, wow, yeah,

yeah, I am. I haven't got that

far. It's it is very good. I'm

in a I got given a book club

membership for my birthday, and

they send me a book once a

month. So of course, it took me

forever to sign up and answer

the questionnaires and all of

that similar to my podcasting

consistency anyway, so that was

the first book, so I am really

enjoying it. Okay, yes, go on

then tell us. Sorry. I didn't

mean to interrupt you. I got

excited.

Well,

wonderful, because it's a

brilliant book, and it's a

really big book, and I know

quite a lot of people might have

been put off from that book

because it's hefty, but it's

very much worth your time,

because it sort of starts off as

this kind of mysterious

disappearance of a kid, and

there's like a friendship, and

it's set in the rural south in

America, and quite an

impoverished sort of part to

some of it, and it takes you on

such a journey that book, it

kind of goes to places you are

not expecting. I'm so excited

for you to be reading it, and I

cannot wait to talk to you about

it once you finish. But Chris

Whitaker, the author, had this

incredible success. It was, I

think this was one, I don't I

can't remember if it was a Reese

Witherspoon pick or a. Read with

Jenna pick so both big in

America, and he'd been flying to

America a lot, and he'd been

doing this, and he's British, is

he? He's British. And when we

spoke to him, and again, I don't

want to speak out of turn for

him, but this is what he kind of

said to us on the podcast. And

we checked he was okay with this

afterwards, he was like, I can't

remember what the question was,

but he just sort of stopped and

said, actually, you know what,

it's really hard. I think I'd

said, like, how is because he's

got, he's he had, yet he has got

young kids. I was like, how are

you managing to kind of balance

all this with your family life

and, you know, with your

partner? And he's like, yeah,

yeah. And he sort of started to

give kind of a rote answer, and

then was like, actually, it's

really difficult. And my we're

separated at the moment, and the

downside of having this and sort

of having to commit on the level

that he had been doing had been

that he'd neglected other areas,

perhaps in his life, and he was

very sad about that. But we

checked with him afterwards that

it was okay to include that, and

he was fine with it, and it felt

important to keep him because,

you know, it's a bit like that

sort of social media thing where

I think, if you present the

whole time, I'm doing this

incredible thing, and everything

is great. Here's me with a

sunset behind me on a boat that

I've been able to buy with the

proceeds of this best selling

book. Fine, but actually, you're

not then showing the reality of

real so to do that, I had to

sacrifice this, and I didn't

know that was going to be a

sacrifice, and maybe I wouldn't

have done it that way. And you

know, you never Well, I think

the podcast space is quite

interesting, because you don't

want to mislead people in that

way. You should, well, I don't

think you should kind of do

that. You should be honest about

stuff as much as you can.

And that's that

goes right back to that point

about be authentic, be yourself

that we said right at the

beginning. Yeah, yeah, really

interesting. Oh, well, we've

nearly run out of time. We've

been nattering away so we've, I

think we've covered absolutely

masses and masses. But I always

ask my gorgeous guests what your

story looks like, and I put a

ridiculously long time frame on

it, five years. Can you possibly

see what your story looks like

in the next five years? I think

it's

a really good

question to ask people, and I

love hearing people's responses

to it, because everybody's

different, as we've been saying,

I think that I am open to

discover what that's going to

be. I'm really enjoying my own

writing at the moment. I think

the podcasting and the

broadcasting and the journalism

side of my career is evolving at

such a rapid rate right now, and

the things that I really enjoy

doing is actually more long form

than some of the short form

articles or radio interviews

that I've done. So I've just

finished writing my second book.

Again, full disclosure, I wrote

a first book which I enjoyed

writing, but I've got a lovely

literary agent, but we couldn't

sell that book to publishers. So

it's not dead in the water, but

it does. It was a real

disappointment at the time when

that didn't get acquired, but it

took me a while then to get

around to finishing my second

book, but I have really enjoyed

doing that. It's only at the

very early stages. It's sort of

I've just sent my first draft

off to my agent, and I'm doing

some edits on it now, but I

would love for that as a long

term goal to be a way to open

doors so I could then do more

writing in the film and TV

space. This is probably a very

convoluted way round to doing

that. I could probably just go

knock on some production

companies doors and things, but

I want to, kind of like earn my

stripes as a writer myself, and

then see what opportunities that

brings up. But at the same time,

I really like the stuff that I

get to do. I really like doing

my books podcast. I really like

talking to people. I get to go

to lots of lovely theatre events

and film events, and I'm still

so culturally curious about all

of that that I'd kind of like to

keep a bit of that bubbling away

if I could. But, you know,

balance, I think, is really

important too, and it's, I think

it's very difficult to get the

perfect balance every single day

of your life. But I am in a

fortunate position where, while

I'm freelance, and, you know,

the money side goes up sometimes

and down the other side, but

then I do get to support my so

my eldest kid, at the moment, is

going through her GCSE, so I can

be around for like, early

mornings or evenings, just to be

there as emotional support if

needed. And that feels like an

important thing to do at the

moment as well. So trying to

kind of massage and navigate

that as much as possible is

important. Well, I've just sort

of one extra thing. Can I add in

a cheeky extra? Of course you

can go. So the other thing I say

in terms of when you're looking

at podcasts and when you're

looking at brands and stuff, is

think of the context in the

world we live in. So whenever

I'm producing or exec producing

or developing a podcast series

or my own podcast series that I

do, I am very conscious that I

am a middle class white woman

making that podcast. And that

content. And so I always want to

make sure that I am hopefully

creating as inclusive and

inviting a space as possible.

And I can do that by making sure

that I'm I'm purposely seeking

out, for example, for

bestsellers books in different

areas where I may not

necessarily have always picked

up a book. So I want to discover

debut authors from like the

global south that I may not know

about, or, you know, translated

books, or people whose culture

is very different to mine. And

then I get so much joy out of

that, and I just feel like it's

the only way to operate in the

world. So similarly, if I'm

putting together a podcast

series, and, you know, people

will say, I want to make this.

Can you suggest a list of

guests? When I send back a list

of guests? It's not all going to

be white men over 50,

isn't it? It's

not, you know, and I think

that's, that's, that's just

being emotionally intelligent

and culturally aware, isn't it,

and socially aware, and all of

those, all of those things that

we hope, we hope most people

want to be, yeah, yeah, yeah. Be

inclusive and inviting. I like

that very much. And also, that

also speaks to your curiosity.

You're you're so curious in all

aspects of what you do. And you

kind of touched on media

training. You do a bit of that

as well. You got a lot, a lot

going on, Nat, and you're

excellent at all of it. So

mornings, I did. I did raise a

secret eyebrow when you said you

could be there for your your

GCSE child in the early

mornings, because I happen to

know that you're not very good

in the mornings

anyway. Not

calling you out on that. No,

it's fine. It's fine. I am much

more of a an owl, as opposed to

a lark in the in the sense, all

of the sense of that word. But I

forced myself to get out of bed.

But, yeah, my kids have come to

very much mummy. What version of

me they might get at 6am is, is

probably different to the one at

6pm Well, that's

also why you're

excellent at going to all of

these, these gigs and award

shows and dealing with people,

fab, fantastic. Okay, so if

people want to get in touch with

you, to be on their podcast, to

create their podcast, to train

them, how do they do that? So

I think that

the space where I'm probably in

the most for good or bad would

be Instagram right now, and I'm

just Natalie Jameson, all one

word on Instagram, and Jameson

is j, A, M, I, E, S, O, N, and I

post, like, lots of reels and

lots of content from things that

I go to on there. But yeah, I'm

always like, interested in

people reaching out to me on

there. My DMS are very much

open. I am on LinkedIn as well.

But as I was discovering when I

was listening to a recent

episode of yours, I think I need

to work on my LinkedIn, so maybe

come back in a bit. But yeah,

those are kind of the main

spaces. But also, do be prepared

for a considerable amount of cat

content on there. I have three

cats, and in terms of being

authentic to my brand, the cat

is usually very close by.

Yeah, I'm a bit

disappointed we haven't seen any

of them today.

Well, I've

kind of like, I'm in a bit of a

sort of very hot box talking to

you today, because there's some

work going on where I am. And so

the cats have all been shut out,

but they're probably just

outside the window. Yeah,

okay, we'll give

them a big stroke from me

always. Well, I could talk to

you forever, but, um, time's up.

So I am just gonna say. Natalie

Jameson, podcasting, creative

extraordinaire, thank you so

much for being with us today.

You're more

than welcome.

Oh, I also like host Q and A's

so yeah, always adapting, always

changing, always curious.

We will put all

of your things and all of your

contact details in the show

notes. She does everything.

She's amazing.

Wow, that was a lot, so much

incredible content in that

conversation. But if you

couldn't take notes fast enough,

don't worry, because here are my

key takeaways. One, what is your

goal? Before you start creating

your podcast, get super clear on

why you're doing it. Natalie

said, figure out what success

looks like for you. Is it

creating a community encouraging

people to think differently or

get inspired to try something

new. Two you must care for

goodness sake. Make it about

something you're interested in,

whether you're talking to guests

or sharing your own insights. Be

authentically. You be curious

and passionate about the subject

you're discussing. Because if

you're just doing it because you

think you should, your podcast

is not going to last, which

brings me to number three,

podcasting is a lot of work, so

if you're doing it all solo,

make sure you can handle that or

hire someone like Natalie or my

brilliant producer Chris to help

you four. Think about the

audience if you find it

interesting. They will too, and

soon, with a bit of luck and

some smart marketing, you'll

have a loyal band of listeners

like you, my lovely five. Do

your research. If you're being a

guest on someone else's podcast,

listen to previous episodes so

you know the vibe. And if you're

interviewing a guest for your

pod, check them out thoroughly.

First, no one wants a Daniel

Craig moment. Do they? Although

some of us might want Daniel

Craig Anyway, last one Listen,

remember, it's a conversation.

Yeah, you've done your research.

You've got a list of questions.

But sometimes things go off on a

fascinating tangent, and as

Natalie said, chances are that's

going to be way more interesting

than what you have planned. NAT

is a veteran interviewer, and

she said that's her key tip. So

if you only remember one thing

from this episode, it's to

really listen when someone is

talking. I reckon that works for

life as well as podcasts. I do

hope you're enjoying this

series. So far, I'm loving it.

If you are, please give us a

review. I'd really enjoy that

and go ahead and subscribe so

you don't miss an episode

talking of which coming up next

time.

Here's a man that has

spent the last well over 10

years studying the effects of

accessible technology for people

with dementia, and looking and

studying all sorts of different

scenarios. And here was me sort

of bumbling along with this

great idea, what I thought was a

great idea, and then having

somebody that's looked at this,

you know, nod and actually

gently say, Yeah, you're onto

something here. This is good. I

like

it. Entrepreneur

Louise Callan on unlocking the

memories of dementia sufferers

through story. She's an amazing

lady with a groundbreaking new

product. Find out more next

week. And another big thanks to

today's guest, Natalie Jamieson.

Why not take a leaf out of her

book and get curious? Check her

out on Instagram. That's all for

now. Thanks for listening. I'm

Katie fleurman, and this is

storytelling for business until

next time. Goodbye. You