Speaker: 00:00:00

Welcome everybody to Gospel Talks podcast where we help Christians all over the world

become more effective in relational evangelism and discipleship.

00:00:08,152 --> 00:00:14,115

I'm George Pinocchio and I'm joined by none other than Jeff Musgrave, founder, author of

The Exchange.

00:00:14,115 --> 00:00:16,125

There's a lot of empty bookshelves behind me.

00:00:16,125 --> 00:00:17,406

Don't be concerned about that.

00:00:17,406 --> 00:00:25,359

I'm moving my office location to a different part of the valley and just want to let you

guys know that that's on purpose, not by accident.

00:00:25,359 --> 00:00:28,551

But we have an incredibly exciting title today.

00:00:28,551 --> 00:00:32,806

And the whole topic today is situated around this one question.

00:00:32,806 --> 00:00:36,389

Do you need to use the Bible when you're trying to win somebody to Jesus Christ?

00:00:36,389 --> 00:00:40,082

When you're trying to lead somebody to Jesus Christ, introduce them to Jesus Christ?

00:00:40,082 --> 00:00:42,915

And so, you know, do you just need a good argument?

00:00:42,915 --> 00:00:44,717

You need to win some personality?

00:00:44,717 --> 00:00:46,579

Can relationship alone win them?

00:00:46,579 --> 00:00:47,479

That's what we're gonna get to.

00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:50,204

So, Jeff, I think you've got some great thoughts on this.

00:00:50,204 --> 00:00:52,325

Tell me what you've seen in scripture.

00:00:52,537 --> 00:00:54,239

so many things to think about.

00:00:54,239 --> 00:01:01,165

What we're not going to try to do today is say, you know, what is necessary, because

there's lots of pieces that have to fall into place.

00:01:01,165 --> 00:01:04,548

And without the work of the Holy Spirit, none of this is happening.

00:01:04,548 --> 00:01:09,433

The key question, the specific question is, you know, is the Bible necessary?

00:01:09,433 --> 00:01:13,326

I mean, can we can we just kind of share our thoughts about it?

00:01:13,326 --> 00:01:15,832

And certainly your testimony

00:01:15,832 --> 00:01:21,648

I mean, it's one of the most powerful evangelism tools you have not trying to discount

that at all.

00:01:21,648 --> 00:01:28,185

But I think the very first thing we have to do is kind of come down to what is evangelism.

00:01:28,185 --> 00:01:38,806

know, correct me if if you think I'm wrong, George, but I think that the most basic core

of what evangelism is, is calling people to become followers of Jesus.

00:01:38,806 --> 00:01:41,259

I mean, when Jesus was here on earth, his

00:01:41,259 --> 00:01:42,541

call to people.

00:01:42,541 --> 00:01:48,736

And when they became his disciple, he his call to them was follow me.

00:01:48,736 --> 00:01:54,652

And so it seems to me like the basic call of the evangelist is follow Jesus.

00:01:54,652 --> 00:01:56,040

Would you agree with that?

00:01:56,040 --> 00:01:57,490

I would agree 100%.

00:01:57,490 --> 00:01:57,841

Yep.

00:01:57,841 --> 00:01:58,342

Yeah.

00:01:58,342 --> 00:01:58,732

Yeah.

00:01:58,732 --> 00:02:11,583

So if we're going to ask people to follow Jesus, I mean, we've, we've got a world that

easily throws around the word, the name Jesus, but we're warned in scripture that if we're

00:02:11,583 --> 00:02:15,276

not careful, we could actually follow another Jesus.

00:02:15,276 --> 00:02:19,569

And so we to be able to define what that is.

00:02:19,569 --> 00:02:21,451

How do we know God?

00:02:21,451 --> 00:02:23,493

How do we have a relationship with God?

00:02:23,493 --> 00:02:23,974

How do

00:02:23,974 --> 00:02:26,416

How are we going to know who it is we're following?

00:02:26,416 --> 00:02:36,581

And the scripture says of itself that the Bible is the progressive self revelation of God

to humans so that we can know him.

00:02:36,581 --> 00:02:38,903

So God by nature is communicative.

00:02:38,903 --> 00:02:42,326

He created humans in his own image.

00:02:42,326 --> 00:02:47,828

One of the things that will drive any human crazy is not being able to communicate with

another human.

00:02:47,828 --> 00:02:49,036

00:02:49,036 --> 00:02:51,096

we by nature are communicative.

00:02:51,096 --> 00:02:57,427

That's a reflection of our creator who we are to bear image to.

00:02:57,427 --> 00:03:05,418

He is communicative and he communicated himself to his image bearers through the word of

God.

00:03:05,418 --> 00:03:13,518

And so just on a basic level, is the Bible necessary to be able to have a relationship

with God?

00:03:13,518 --> 00:03:15,910

And the answer would be absolutely yes.

00:03:15,910 --> 00:03:22,857

Yeah, and I love the way you're intersecting those two ideas is how can you know that you

know Him without the truth?

00:03:22,857 --> 00:03:33,389

You know, how important of an ingredient is the Bible and evangelism is the flip side of

that is how else would you know that you believe in Jesus and that who you're following at

00:03:33,389 --> 00:03:40,908

the moment is Jesus because of all the counterfeit belief systems and worldviews and

figures out there in history.

00:03:40,908 --> 00:03:43,073

your messiah could be anybody.

00:03:43,073 --> 00:03:46,971

The only way to know if your messiah is also Jesus is to open the Bible.

00:03:46,971 --> 00:03:48,672

Mm hmm.

00:03:48,672 --> 00:03:54,227

I heard a man recently say these words in an encounter about following Jesus.

00:03:54,227 --> 00:03:57,461

He says, I know what's true in my heart.

00:03:57,461 --> 00:04:03,147

And so what I'm doing with my life is trying to find what connects with my heart.

00:04:03,147 --> 00:04:08,412

And I think that's, in fact, I know that's going about it totally backwards.

00:04:08,412 --> 00:04:11,625

That puts me as the definer of truth.

00:04:11,625 --> 00:04:22,763

And I think it's interesting when, when God tells us what salvation is, we looked at a

verse a couple of weeks ago, first Timothy chapter two and verse two, when we were talking

00:04:22,763 --> 00:04:27,004

about, living a peaceable life and, we had that episode on war.

00:04:27,004 --> 00:04:30,985

the verse there says that God would have all men to be saved.

00:04:30,985 --> 00:04:32,756

So he's talking about

00:04:32,867 --> 00:04:36,179

bringing people to salvation evangelism.

00:04:36,179 --> 00:04:42,962

And in the context, he says, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

00:04:42,962 --> 00:04:48,666

So literally, he is saying, on the one hand, we're talking about I want everybody to be

saved.

00:04:48,666 --> 00:04:59,241

And then he uses this synonymous phrase, and it comes to the knowledge of the fruit truth,

the way we come to salvation is through the knowledge of the truth can't do that apart

00:04:59,241 --> 00:05:00,072

from

00:05:00,072 --> 00:05:03,846

the revealed word of God that he gave to us.

00:05:03,846 --> 00:05:05,578

It doesn't come from my heart.

00:05:05,578 --> 00:05:08,942

I will say this, he satisfies the needs of the heart.

00:05:08,942 --> 00:05:11,044

He fills up the needs of the heart.

00:05:11,044 --> 00:05:18,211

So a relationship with God that doesn't fill your heart is not what God is offering.

00:05:18,211 --> 00:05:25,408

But he's not saying just go looking for what your heart longs for because our hearts are

deceitful.

00:05:25,408 --> 00:05:27,012

uh desperately wicked.

00:05:27,012 --> 00:05:33,398

uh What we have to do is go look for the truth and the truth comes in and fills in the

heart.

00:05:33,398 --> 00:05:34,289

Right, right.

00:05:34,289 --> 00:05:35,929

can't, it's exactly right.

00:05:35,929 --> 00:05:40,362

I mean, we've been told as kids growing up around Disney to follow your heart.

00:05:40,362 --> 00:05:46,645

And it's basically the worst advice in the world is follow your heart, which what we need

is truth.

00:05:46,645 --> 00:05:52,339

It's what the world needs, not what the world wants, but it desperately needs truth.

00:05:52,339 --> 00:05:56,212

so Jesus says at the end of truth, you're going to find me.

00:05:56,212 --> 00:06:01,376

Whether you accept or follow, that's I guess a different thing, but the truth always leads

to Jesus.

00:06:01,376 --> 00:06:10,362

I think that we as evangelists, and I don't really care for that term because I think

everybody says I'm not an evangelist.

00:06:10,362 --> 00:06:15,866

The fact is that if we're trying to share our faith with other people, we fit into that

category.

00:06:15,866 --> 00:06:23,981

So as someone trying to share his faith with someone else, better terminology, I, I, if I

say to people,

00:06:23,981 --> 00:06:27,484

Following your heart is the worst advice you could ever have.

00:06:27,484 --> 00:06:37,280

It's going to literally ring so false to them because they've heard all their lives, their

heart is important.

00:06:37,700 --> 00:06:42,044

I think granting that their heart is important is valuable.

00:06:42,044 --> 00:06:43,645

God says their heart is important.

00:06:43,645 --> 00:06:45,857

God is pursuing their hearts.

00:06:45,857 --> 00:06:46,490

Hmm.

00:06:46,490 --> 00:06:51,743

to have your heart satisfied is not by, chasing after things.

00:06:51,743 --> 00:06:57,866

the way to have your heart satisfied is to find Jesus and he comes in and meets those

needs.

00:06:57,866 --> 00:07:01,698

So I think to, help a person say, yes, I get it.

00:07:01,698 --> 00:07:02,968

Your heart is important.

00:07:02,968 --> 00:07:05,319

God loves your heart and he's pursuing it.

100

00:07:05,319 --> 00:07:11,142

But the way he wants you to, to find what's going to satisfy your heart is this truth that

is revealed to us.

101

00:07:11,142 --> 00:07:11,993

Does that make sense?

102

00:07:11,993 --> 00:07:14,055

Right, yep, absolutely.

103

00:07:14,055 --> 00:07:24,670

And so that, I mean, we talk about this in scripture, Jesus talks about a light, he talks

about a light set on a hill, he talks about, he kind of uses these analogies and truth is

104

00:07:24,670 --> 00:07:25,801

part of that, right?

105

00:07:25,801 --> 00:07:28,562

He's the light because he's another form of truth.

106

00:07:28,562 --> 00:07:33,004

He's literally walking around the self-revelation of God while he was here on earth.

107

00:07:33,004 --> 00:07:34,097

But, know, and...

108

00:07:34,097 --> 00:07:42,329

And those are specifically the two truths as they're encapsulated in Scripture, the life

of Jesus Christ and the rest of Scripture, that present you with who God is.

109

00:07:42,329 --> 00:07:44,671

And he says you need to know the truth.

110

00:07:44,671 --> 00:07:54,547

And I think we think no like no, but the reality is no like, it's kind of awkward, like

Adam knew his wife, a relationship no.

111

00:07:54,547 --> 00:07:58,578

That has always been the modus operandi of realizing something in the Bible.

112

00:07:58,578 --> 00:08:01,000

It has always had a relational plane to it.

113

00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:01,500

And so,

114

00:08:01,500 --> 00:08:01,740

Yeah.

115

00:08:01,740 --> 00:08:04,891

And I like to use the phrase to experience God.

116

00:08:04,891 --> 00:08:13,855

mean, that's, that's really what that's talking about is to, to genuinely experience and

commune with God in intimacy.

117

00:08:13,855 --> 00:08:20,687

That's, that's the picture there of knowing that you're, you're pointing to that's, and so

people are looking for an experience.

118

00:08:20,687 --> 00:08:21,758

I totally get that.

119

00:08:21,758 --> 00:08:26,680

But frankly, when we go around looking for experiences,

120

00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:29,783

It's kind of like a butterfly flitting from place to place to place.

121

00:08:29,783 --> 00:08:32,186

You don't know where you're going to end up.

122

00:08:32,186 --> 00:08:42,757

But when we followed the roadmap of the truth, which is the revealed word of God, we're

going to experience God, it's going to be a wonderful experience, but it's but we know

123

00:08:42,757 --> 00:08:44,380

where we're going while we're doing it.

124

00:08:44,380 --> 00:08:50,872

Well, it's really interesting you bring that up because what happens is when you don't

have the Bible involved in evangelism, when you don't have the Bible involved in

125

00:08:50,872 --> 00:09:00,537

somebody's approach to God, it's kind of like you don't have the decipher, the key, the

map that kind of untangles or interprets everything.

126

00:09:00,537 --> 00:09:08,290

And so if all you're being led by is experiences, which experiences evoke emotions, which

means now you're being led by emotion and there's nothing more turbulent than a person's

127

00:09:08,290 --> 00:09:09,031

emotions.

128

00:09:09,031 --> 00:09:10,791

I mean, yesterday I was...

129

00:09:11,271 --> 00:09:18,057

I mean, you would not want anything to be based on George's emotions.

130

00:09:18,057 --> 00:09:24,091

If the stock market was based on George's emotions, it would be far more turbulent than it

already is, right?

131

00:09:24,091 --> 00:09:31,025

And that's, part of the problem is anything in this human world that's based on human

emotions is going to have those ups and downs.

132

00:09:31,025 --> 00:09:36,940

And what you need, that roadmap, like you're talking about the key, the cipher is the

Bible.

133

00:09:36,940 --> 00:09:42,149

I so here here's another this is just to those of you who are trying to share your faith.

134

00:09:42,671 --> 00:09:47,669

Then we think okay, I got to convince someone that the Bible is the truth and

135

00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:52,283

I don't feel like I have to convince someone that my flashlight works.

136

00:09:52,523 --> 00:09:54,335

I just have to turn it on.

137

00:09:54,335 --> 00:10:04,271

And so I feel like sometimes we do ourselves a great disservice to be talking about the

flashlight, and telling them all of the wonderful, beautiful features of this flashlight,

138

00:10:04,271 --> 00:10:13,286

and you really need this flashlight, when really all we need to do is just open the book

and it the light shines out, and the truth is seen.

139

00:10:13,286 --> 00:10:14,039

And so

140

00:10:14,039 --> 00:10:19,523

That's why when someone asked me the question is the Bible, I mean necessary?

141

00:10:19,523 --> 00:10:22,365

How are going to shine the light if you don't turn on the flashlight?

142

00:10:22,365 --> 00:10:23,697

You got to have that.

143

00:10:23,697 --> 00:10:25,278

100 % Yep.

144

00:10:25,278 --> 00:10:25,698

Yep.

145

00:10:25,698 --> 00:10:36,576

It's I love I love that analogy because it goes to it gets away from it's one of our

temptations as Christians is to argue through things and and present them as this is my

146

00:10:36,576 --> 00:10:37,076

viewpoint.

147

00:10:37,076 --> 00:10:41,360

I've got to sell you on this and it's like, nope, you just have to do it.

148

00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:47,774

You just have to go ahead and that's real faith by the way, because now you're saying

watch I'll show you it works.

149

00:10:47,774 --> 00:10:49,457

Let's go stand on the bridge.

150

00:10:49,457 --> 00:10:57,577

and to that point, you know, in, in first Timothy, he, Timothy was told, God wants

everybody to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth.

151

00:10:57,577 --> 00:11:03,231

Paul uses that phrase, the knowledge of the truth three different times in the two books.

152

00:11:03,231 --> 00:11:08,504

And, um, in second Timothy two to we've looked at this passage before

153

00:11:08,504 --> 00:11:11,364

talks that the servant of the Lord must not be quarrelsome.

154

00:11:11,364 --> 00:11:14,395

This is not about debate.

155

00:11:14,395 --> 00:11:18,055

You can win a debate and lose a person's heart.

156

00:11:18,168 --> 00:11:23,810

But it conversely, we need to be kind to everyone.

157

00:11:23,810 --> 00:11:27,081

He doesn't say, that's it.

158

00:11:27,081 --> 00:11:30,252

Just don't argue, be kind, everybody would be.

159

00:11:30,252 --> 00:11:32,783

So sometimes I think another error

160

00:11:32,783 --> 00:11:41,250

that people walk into is if I can just show them Jesus, if I can just be the example I'm

supposed to be, it'll all work out.

161

00:11:41,250 --> 00:11:44,903

And the very next phrase says able to teach.

162

00:11:44,903 --> 00:11:48,327

And so part of what we do is teaching.

163

00:11:48,327 --> 00:11:56,547

I the, I think somewhere along the line, you made the statement, if, the Bible is missing,

it isn't evangelism.

164

00:11:56,547 --> 00:11:58,458

And, uh, I, I think that

165

00:11:58,458 --> 00:12:04,119

That's where that comes in is that what we are teaching is the truth from the Word of God.

166

00:12:04,119 --> 00:12:07,624

And what the Word of God is, is the self-revelation of God.

167

00:12:07,624 --> 00:12:12,353

We're literally introducing people to the real God through His Word.

168

00:12:12,353 --> 00:12:12,854

Mm-hmm.

169

00:12:12,854 --> 00:12:13,174

Yep.

170

00:12:13,174 --> 00:12:14,835

I think I think that's exactly right.

171

00:12:14,835 --> 00:12:24,672

That's and I think sometimes what happens is When we get away from the Word of God, we

feel like we have to recreate the wheel a little bit We feel like we have to you know use

172

00:12:24,672 --> 00:12:33,928

words of wisdom Paul calls them words of wisdom and and if you ever looked at like first

Corinthians 2 1 to 5 Paul says this and when I came to you brothers I did not came

173

00:12:33,928 --> 00:12:38,121

proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom for I decided to know

nothing

174

00:12:38,121 --> 00:12:40,681

And that's truth, right?

175

00:12:40,681 --> 00:12:41,909

That's the Bible.

176

00:12:41,909 --> 00:12:44,991

Again, the author and the power of the Bible.

177

00:12:44,991 --> 00:12:49,533

power of God so that their faith would rest in the words of God is what Paul is saying.

178

00:12:49,533 --> 00:12:57,337

And so I think one of the things we do is sometimes when we scroll on social media or

TikTok or Instagram or whatever, we see these really, really smart dudes.

179

00:12:57,337 --> 00:13:02,780

I just started following one yesterday where I thought, man, the way he puts stuff makes

it so clear.

180

00:13:02,780 --> 00:13:06,301

But every time I try to be like him or say it like him, I just can't.

181

00:13:06,301 --> 00:13:08,122

Like I'm not as smart as that dude.

182

00:13:08,122 --> 00:13:10,314

He definitely has been gifted with a mind.

183

00:13:10,314 --> 00:13:15,430

to think things through in a very unique angle and present them in a way that puts them on

the bottom shelf.

184

00:13:15,430 --> 00:13:19,614

All that's great, but you know what's even way more powerful than anybody's IQ?

185

00:13:19,614 --> 00:13:20,795

The word of God.

186

00:13:20,795 --> 00:13:26,882

You can't go wrong going, using Jesus' exact words to answer somebody's question.

187

00:13:26,882 --> 00:13:28,623

You just can't go wrong doing that.

188

00:13:28,623 --> 00:13:29,294

And guess what?

189

00:13:29,294 --> 00:13:30,405

It's really easy.

190

00:13:30,405 --> 00:13:31,436

It's already been written down.

191

00:13:31,436 --> 00:13:33,446

You just have to read it.

192

00:13:33,636 --> 00:13:42,494

Yeah, one of the things I love about you, George, is that you know that truth, but you

still keep trying to learn and make yourself a better person of sharing the faith.

193

00:13:42,494 --> 00:13:50,551

So there's this there's this balance in which we are we're doing both we're trusting the

word, but we're trying to get better.

194

00:13:50,551 --> 00:13:52,123

We're trying to learn as much as we can.

195

00:13:52,123 --> 00:13:57,787

I think one of the things that you have to recognize if you are going to

196

00:13:57,787 --> 00:14:02,819

um, present truth as truth in a world in which that says, that's your truth.

197

00:14:02,819 --> 00:14:04,012

This is my truth.

198

00:14:04,012 --> 00:14:08,616

if we're going to present it as truth, mean, nothing, this is not my truth.

199

00:14:08,616 --> 00:14:10,108

This is the truth.

200

00:14:10,108 --> 00:14:12,040

Um, we're going to get pushback.

201

00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:22,000

And I love the phrase that Paul uses in second Timothy two, where he says patiently

enduring evil, recognizing it's going to come.

202

00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:29,996

And one of the you know, this about me, one of the things I loved about Charlie Kirk was

that when he got that pushback, he was patient.

203

00:14:29,996 --> 00:14:32,497

And he corrected his opponents.

204

00:14:32,497 --> 00:14:35,889

Now he didn't always use the gentleness that I think of.

205

00:14:35,889 --> 00:14:43,884

But but it wasn't with that emotion and red angry face that that that is the opposite of

of of gentleness.

206

00:14:43,884 --> 00:14:47,659

So if you look at those conversations, there is

207

00:14:47,659 --> 00:14:54,691

amazing gentleness in comparison to what happens inside my heart when people say that's

not true.

208

00:14:55,071 --> 00:14:56,873

You know, I tend to want to fight.

209

00:14:56,873 --> 00:15:00,454

And God says, No, we need to correct our opponents with gentleness.

210

00:15:00,454 --> 00:15:08,229

And here's the bottom line, that God might perhaps grant repentance, leading to the

knowledge of the truth.

211

00:15:08,229 --> 00:15:13,112

So we teach God's the one who brings them to the knowledge of the truth.

212

00:15:13,691 --> 00:15:15,332

Yep, I agree with you.

213

00:15:15,332 --> 00:15:19,286

It's exactly what Romans 10-17 teaches, right?

214

00:15:19,286 --> 00:15:23,660

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God.

215

00:15:23,660 --> 00:15:25,571

And so I love that passage.

216

00:15:25,571 --> 00:15:28,123

In the context of the passage, I there's a lot of other rich things.

217

00:15:28,123 --> 00:15:31,295

I don't know if you want to talk about some of those there that are related.

218

00:15:31,295 --> 00:15:34,346

go to that, let me just say this because I agree with you.

219

00:15:34,346 --> 00:15:35,617

That is so key.

220

00:15:35,617 --> 00:15:43,641

Second Timothy three, Paul says that there are people who are ever learning, but never

coming to the knowledge of the truth.

221

00:15:43,641 --> 00:15:53,616

That's why the word of God is so critical because if we're going to bring a person to the

knowledge of the truth, then that, faith element has to come in.

222

00:15:53,616 --> 00:15:56,898

I mean, it's, it's not enough to hear the truth.

223

00:15:56,898 --> 00:16:02,288

as your word, knowledge, experience, we have to experience the truth.

224

00:16:02,288 --> 00:16:09,701

And the only way we can do that is through the faith and faith comes from the word of God.

225

00:16:09,701 --> 00:16:15,814

I love that because that means he's directly contrasting the word learning versus

believing.

226

00:16:15,814 --> 00:16:17,274

And I think that's a key distinctive.

227

00:16:17,274 --> 00:16:21,386

Now we're a ministry that teaches laborers how to teach, right?

228

00:16:21,386 --> 00:16:23,357

I mean, that's the whole point of the exchange online.

229

00:16:23,357 --> 00:16:31,022

You can go take our seminar online, become a teacher of evangelism, teacher of the 150

Bible verses in the exchange Bible study.

230

00:16:31,022 --> 00:16:36,217

But all that aside, um if people don't make the jump, if they don't

231

00:16:36,217 --> 00:16:38,448

put stake their life on it.

232

00:16:38,448 --> 00:16:39,868

It's just knowledge.

233

00:16:39,868 --> 00:16:44,030

just stays, actually, not just knowledge, it's just information at that point.

234

00:16:44,030 --> 00:16:45,710

It's just information.

235

00:16:45,763 --> 00:16:47,303

Nobody, yeah.

236

00:16:47,523 --> 00:16:53,543

I was gonna say, nobody is as learned as probably Bart Aermann, but he clearly does not

believe in Jesus Christ.

237

00:16:53,543 --> 00:16:54,325

Yeah, yeah.

238

00:16:54,325 --> 00:17:00,771

Paul, or excuse me, I, the writer of Hebrews, in chapter 10, talks to people just like

that.

239

00:17:00,771 --> 00:17:11,256

In fact, the book of Hebrews seems to be written to a group of people, some of whom are

genuine believers, and some of them who have come right up to the door, and are

240

00:17:11,256 --> 00:17:16,040

fellowshiping in the same group, but have never quite embraced it.

241

00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:18,093

And Paul warns,

242

00:17:18,093 --> 00:17:28,594

excuse me, the writer of Hebrews, I'm just so used to saying Paul because he wrote so

many, the writer of Hebrews, warns that, coming to a knowledge of the truth where I know

243

00:17:28,594 --> 00:17:34,659

it here is not the same thing as actually embracing it and making that exchange with

Jesus.

244

00:17:34,659 --> 00:17:39,682

I know a lot of people who know a lot about God, but they've never made that exchange with

him.

245

00:17:39,682 --> 00:17:41,225

That's where faith comes in.

246

00:17:41,225 --> 00:17:42,568

And in fact,

247

00:17:42,568 --> 00:17:49,008

you were talking about Romans 10 17 faith comes by hearing hearing by the word of God.

248

00:17:49,008 --> 00:18:04,859

If you back all the way up to verse 13, he says everyone who verse 12 knows and believes

that Jesus is and then he says everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.

249

00:18:04,859 --> 00:18:06,439

So that's critical.

250

00:18:06,439 --> 00:18:11,091

But then it goes on and says how they gonna call on him if they haven't believed on him.

251

00:18:11,129 --> 00:18:14,192

And how are they going to believe if they've never heard?

252

00:18:14,192 --> 00:18:17,595

And how are they going to hear if no one has preached?

253

00:18:17,595 --> 00:18:26,882

And then he goes on, says, blessed that that's the reason the Bible says blessed are the

feet of those are beautiful are the feet of those that preach good news.

254

00:18:26,882 --> 00:18:29,033

It's, it's the bringing the good news.

255

00:18:29,033 --> 00:18:37,729

And the good news is that that truth of the word of God, we actually get the word gospel

from that phrase, good news.

256

00:18:37,729 --> 00:18:44,180

mean, those words, the phrase good news in the Greek language is the same word that is

translated elsewhere.

257

00:18:44,180 --> 00:18:49,082

Gospel, the gospel is the good news that we preach.

258

00:18:49,082 --> 00:18:54,073

And when we preach the truth, God does the work of bringing people to faith.

259

00:18:54,073 --> 00:18:56,664

That's in verse 17, just the very next verse.

260

00:18:56,664 --> 00:19:01,575

So then faith comes from hearing and then he, he,

261

00:19:01,575 --> 00:19:03,456

Some people might be frustrated with us.

262

00:19:03,456 --> 00:19:04,777

You're being a little too specific.

263

00:19:04,777 --> 00:19:10,330

mean, we could just talk about the truths without re using the Bible.

264

00:19:10,330 --> 00:19:16,186

says faith comes by hearing and then Paul gets very specific and hearing through the word

of Christ.

265

00:19:16,186 --> 00:19:19,739

It's the word that that does the convincing.

266

00:19:19,739 --> 00:19:20,030

Hmm.

267

00:19:20,030 --> 00:19:20,431

Yep.

268

00:19:20,431 --> 00:19:21,731

I agree with that 100%.

269

00:19:21,731 --> 00:19:22,992

It's the word that convicts.

270

00:19:22,992 --> 00:19:27,067

It's described as a sword piercing, dividing to the soul.

271

00:19:27,067 --> 00:19:28,718

And it really does that.

272

00:19:28,718 --> 00:19:32,322

We have promises in scripture about this word will not return void.

273

00:19:32,322 --> 00:19:35,204

And so I love the way you put it.

274

00:19:35,204 --> 00:19:36,936

We were talking just before we came on.

275

00:19:36,936 --> 00:19:39,469

Relationship is not truth.

276

00:19:39,469 --> 00:19:42,188

It is a delivery vehicle.

277

00:19:42,337 --> 00:19:45,293

Yeah, it's it's it's the delivery truck.

278

00:19:45,395 --> 00:19:46,676

Right, right, right.

279

00:19:46,676 --> 00:19:54,352

If the delivery truck shows up empty, there's nothing, know, this might be a really nice,

beautiful truck, but it's not really, there's no point to it.

280

00:19:54,352 --> 00:19:58,254

The point of the relationship is to deliver truth, and I think sometimes we forget that.

281

00:19:58,254 --> 00:20:04,599

I think what we do is we try to sometimes summarize the gospel, maybe we don't want to

open the Bible, get into the Bible, be committed to a Bible study.

282

00:20:04,599 --> 00:20:08,749

I know sometimes, I'm the type of person, it takes discipline and a commitment.

283

00:20:08,749 --> 00:20:12,425

I have to decide ahead of time, I'm going to finish this Bible study with this person.

284

00:20:12,425 --> 00:20:21,789

Because I would much rather just sit and talk and get to know them and basically give them

the truth but in my own summarized words and not really include the Bible in the

285

00:20:21,789 --> 00:20:24,243

conversation and that's not a good practice.

286

00:20:24,243 --> 00:20:24,693

No.

287

00:20:24,693 --> 00:20:28,646

In fact, George, I wonder sometimes you and I both have experienced it.

288

00:20:28,646 --> 00:20:31,124

The pushback always comes with the Bible.

289

00:20:31,124 --> 00:20:32,204

It always comes.

290

00:20:32,204 --> 00:20:40,249

If someone is going to reject, um, as long as we're talking in generalities, it's like

we're all going to, yeah, I don't really like that.

291

00:20:40,249 --> 00:20:47,837

But when, when the pushback comes, it's, it's when we start showing them what the Bible

says.

292

00:20:47,837 --> 00:20:48,575

Mmm.

293

00:20:48,575 --> 00:20:55,233

wonder sometimes if the reason we tend to stay general is because we were trying to avoid

the pushback.

294

00:20:55,233 --> 00:20:56,393

Right.

295

00:20:56,393 --> 00:21:00,284

Yep, I think we're scared what's going to happen when we get there.

296

00:21:00,284 --> 00:21:03,975

And I think what we have to remember is that when they're pushing back, they're not

pushing back on us.

297

00:21:03,975 --> 00:21:05,846

They're pushing back on God.

298

00:21:05,846 --> 00:21:11,548

And so if God and somebody else are having a shoving match, I'd step out of the way.

299

00:21:11,548 --> 00:21:13,928

I wouldn't try to insert myself.

300

00:21:13,928 --> 00:21:16,139

I would continue to present truth.

301

00:21:16,139 --> 00:21:22,070

And the more they ask questions, I would continue to present truth and present truth and

present truth and let God do His work.

302

00:21:22,070 --> 00:21:26,613

And it may mean that your four-week Bible study takes six months because it's a long

fight.

303

00:21:26,613 --> 00:21:27,363

But you know what?

304

00:21:27,363 --> 00:21:28,922

It wasn't a fight between you and them.

305

00:21:28,922 --> 00:21:30,175

It was a fight between them and God.

306

00:21:30,175 --> 00:21:34,031

And I think that's why we sometimes take these things personally when they don't work out.

307

00:21:34,031 --> 00:21:37,148

Is we think, oh was the delivery truck was bad.

308

00:21:37,148 --> 00:21:38,768

No, the delivery truck was not bad.

309

00:21:38,768 --> 00:21:40,309

The delivery truck is the delivery truck.

310

00:21:40,309 --> 00:21:44,170

They opened the door and found out what's inside and said, don't want it.

311

00:21:44,170 --> 00:21:47,082

And nothing, it could be the best delivery truck in the world.

312

00:21:47,082 --> 00:21:48,672

But you know what I mean?

313

00:21:48,672 --> 00:21:50,424

Relationship as a delivery vehicle.

314

00:21:50,424 --> 00:21:51,869

It's not a judgment on that.

315

00:21:51,869 --> 00:21:55,682

It's a judgment on, this person rejected the truth and we know many people will.

316

00:21:55,682 --> 00:21:56,222

Yeah.

317

00:21:56,222 --> 00:22:07,450

In fact, in the context of Roman 17, Isaiah is quoted and Isaiah, when he's called, I'll

go, you know, gee, God says, who am I, who will go for us?

318

00:22:07,450 --> 00:22:10,162

And, and, and Isaiah says, I'll go.

319

00:22:10,162 --> 00:22:12,398

And, um, he, he says, but

320

00:22:12,398 --> 00:22:13,700

who's going to believe this?

321

00:22:13,700 --> 00:22:15,532

How in the world is this going to work?

322

00:22:15,532 --> 00:22:17,184

And God answers.

323

00:22:17,184 --> 00:22:19,725

Faith comes from hearing and hearing of the word of God.

324

00:22:19,725 --> 00:22:25,299

The reason we must get to the word of God is because that's the tool God has chosen to

bless.

325

00:22:25,299 --> 00:22:36,566

um I, my apologetics can be perfect and someone can walk away unbelieving, but, but the

tool that God is going to bless and use

326

00:22:36,566 --> 00:22:37,378

is the word of God.

327

00:22:37,378 --> 00:22:40,263

Now I'm not saying everybody's going to get saved if I use the Bible.

328

00:22:40,263 --> 00:22:46,937

I'm just saying that the people God is calling to himself, he's going to do that work

through the Holy Spirit working through the word.

329

00:22:46,937 --> 00:22:47,587

Yep.

330

00:22:47,587 --> 00:22:57,121

Yeah, it's Isaiah who also says, as the rain and the snow come down from heaven and do not

return there, but water the earth, making it spring forth and sprout, so shall my word be

331

00:22:57,121 --> 00:23:03,634

that goes out from my mouth, it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that

which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.

332

00:23:03,634 --> 00:23:09,568

That's exactly the idea, and I think we have to live like that.

333

00:23:09,568 --> 00:23:14,992

We just have to decide if it's a conversation without the Bible, it's not a conversation

about evangelism.

334

00:23:14,992 --> 00:23:23,277

So if I could sum up this entire podcast with just here's what I would love everybody to

take away from this is that you can have confidence in the word of God.

335

00:23:23,277 --> 00:23:29,322

The word of God is the power that of the of God written in the book by the Holy Spirit.

336

00:23:29,322 --> 00:23:36,656

The Holy Spirit then takes those words that he inspired and implies them into the hearts

of people.

337

00:23:36,656 --> 00:23:42,760

And we have confidence that the word of God is going to do the work God sent it to do,

just like you just quoted.

338

00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:43,251

Amen.

339

00:23:43,251 --> 00:23:43,751

Amen.

340

00:23:43,751 --> 00:23:53,588

So pray with us as we pray to the Lord of the harvest, as we use God's word, as we go with

it on our mouth and on our lips and speak it to our neighbors and friends and family and

341

00:23:53,588 --> 00:23:54,429

coworkers.

342

00:23:54,429 --> 00:24:02,435

Pray with us that God would send forth laborers because we know that the harvest is

plentiful, but the laborers are few.

343

00:24:02,435 --> 00:24:09,051

Really exciting, all the things going on at the exchange and very excited to see what God

is doing

344

00:24:09,051 --> 00:24:14,340

to help us be more effective in bringing up, raising up, and deploying laborers.

345

00:24:14,340 --> 00:24:17,065

We love you guys, we are praying for you.

346

00:24:17,065 --> 00:24:18,297

See you next week.