E060 - Why Narcissists Manipulate & How To Protect Yourself From Getting Trapped with Narcissism Expert James Marrugo

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[00:00:00] In this episode, you are going to finally understand why narcissists manipulate other people and how to protect yourself from getting trapped.

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Speaker: Welcome to Heartbreak to Wholeness, the podcast helping you heal from the mind fuck of narcissistic relationships and move towards the secure, peaceful woman you want to become.

I am your host, Bre Wolta, Relationship Clarity Coach and EFT Certified Practitioner. Let's dive in.

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Today, we are talking all things, narcissists and narcissism and the psychology behind what they do. So in this episode, you are going to learn why. Y narcissists use behaviors and patterns and tactics. That leave you spun around and second guessing your reality.

You were going to know how to identify the key red flags that signal that your partner or ex is a narcissist or has narcissistic tendencies. And you're going to understand if it's possible to [00:01:00] maintain a relationship with a narcissistic person and how to gauge, if you should leave. This episode is actually a rerelease of one of almost my very first episodes.

It was episode three from when I first started this podcast.

It has such a valuable content. As I speak with narcissism expert, James, Marrugo. That I wanted to share it again with all of the new listeners and all of you loyal fans. To make sure that you're getting this wonderful information. There is a small disclaimer that the audio quality reflects that of the beginning of a podcast.

So as you listen to. The sound of this right here versus the sound of the interview you're going to notice a difference. And that is part of this imperfect process of vulnerably releasing episodes. Before I had all of the equipment that I do now. So hang in there with me with the audio quality. And just stay focused on all of the goodness [00:02:00] that you are about to absorb and receive. And as always stick around to the end of the episode, where I will pull an Oracle card that will offer you a message to stay more conscious of as you move forward in your healing this week.​

Speaker: So excited for this conversation today.

When we first met and you said that you work with narcissists, my interest was peaked because usually you don't see narcissists finding therapists. Why don't we start by explaining what narcissism is and how it's different than NPD.

Speaker 3: Narcissism is more of a perception mentality in comparison to narcissistic personality disorder. How I differentiate the two is both intensity and consistency in narcissistic traits and tendencies.

Speaker 2: Essentially,

Speaker 3: someone who's narcissistic regardless of a diagnosis is solely focused on themselves and getting what they need or want regardless of what's happening around them in their [00:03:00] environment is how I would describe narcissism in comparison to narcissistic personality disorder, NPD.

That is a mental health diagnosis. They have to meet certain criteria. There's a total of nine criterion. They have to meet five out of the nine in order to be diagnosed with NPD. The. More criteria a person meets for narcissistic personality disorder, the more intense they're going to feel on the receiving end.

If you are in a relationship with someone who's a narcissist or someone in your work environment is a narcissist, you're going to instinctually feel a clear distinction between someone who probably has NPD because they're going to show all of the symptoms all the time, every day. In comparison to someone who's kind of narcissistic, it's kind of hit or miss.

Speaker: Yeah, I think that's a good differentiator because The word narcissism and narcissist is thrown around everywhere right now. A lot of people are coming to me saying their partner's a narcissist. I'm like, I don't know if that's true. You can be [00:04:00] experiencing some tendencies, some of the traits, but to have the full on personality disorder is also kind of rare.

Speaker 3: According to the data, I think last I looked at a total of six to seven percent of the entire population have NPD or could have NPD. be diagnosed with NPD. So it's not something that's common. The majority of them are men. Out of the 6%, 6 to 7%, about 50 to roughly like 75 percent of those diagnosed with NPD are males.

Speaker: More likely, these women are experiencing a partner that has narcissistic traits or tendencies. So what are some of the Traits or what would be the behavior that they could expect from someone who has those traits?

Speaker 3: Sure, it would be a lack of empathy and remorse is one. Empathy is recognizing another person's emotions and being able to acknowledge what those are.

People who are higher up on the narcissistic trend also don't really care for boundaries. If you set a boundary to someone who has [00:05:00] NPD, they just ignore it. Being preoccupied with fantasies of power, ideal love, beauty, intelligence, money is another marker for narcissistic traits. A lot of this behavior starts in early adulthood to high school.

If you have information about this person's background and how they were before you met them is another indicator. The longer they've been like that, the higher likelihood that they're running up the narcissistic traits and potentially leading into full blown NPD. Um, the other marker is Being manipulative.

People who are narcissistic, the entire focus is on them and themselves. What they need and want out of their environment, be it family, friends, colleagues, work, whatever. They don't really think too much about others around them.

Speaker: Well, the first time that we spoke, you used the analogy of a chess game, which I thought was fascinating.

Will you talk a little bit about that? Because I think the visual of that is really helpful.

Speaker 3: Yeah, so the [00:06:00] thing with narcissists that a lot of people don't realize is they're often very self aware of their behavior. Plenty of narcissists and even those with full blown NPD are actually aware how they present themselves and they just don't care because they're narcissists.

When you take a person and you remove all of the emotion, all you have is logic. So then you see them often in very logic driven careers. Things that have a lot of business planning or strategy. And I relate this to chess because a lot of narcissists will play head games with people around them.

Gaslighting is one of the things they do. Love bombing is another example of that. They're always in a chess match with everyone around them, but because they spend so much time using their logical part of their brain, they're just inherently and through experience and hours of practice, much better at using logic and strategy and insight.

Into human behavior to essentially outwit, outwit, and outplay their opponents and their opponents. Is everyone and [00:07:00] anyone within grasp,

Speaker: it's such an important concept to grasp because these people have been practicing the manipulation to get mm-hmm their needs met for their entire life. Right, so they've surpassed the 10, 000 hours and often what happens in the clients that I work with, they are beating themselves up because they couldn't see it, or they've been being gaslit for 5, 10, 15 years and they're like, how the hell did I allow this to happen?

But it's like, you're going up against a chess master, essentially.

Speaker 3: 100 percent it's the reason why in the upper echelons of corporate America, you find a higher density of people showing narcissistic traits. And it's because the environment kind of breeds it into those people trying to climb the corporate ladder.

It's all business logic, strategy, numbers, and money. Those are logically driven career paths. So those people end up in those positions because from a young age, [00:08:00] all they do is practice their ability to be logical, regardless of the consequences or damage left behind them. So when people have come to me regarding how to not see it, You're just, you have no way of knowing.

There's, they're intentionally hiding this about them because they've learned to long before you met them. So you and everyone else, and probably all of your friends who are now their friends, having a clue, because if you take one skill, and have someone learn it for 30, 000 hours, they're going to get so good, it's going to seem flawless.

And that's what we see in pro athletes. The simple mechanics they do seem really simple and easy until we try it and realize it takes millions of hours to get here. This person is that much better than me at this particular skill. And for the narcissist, it's logic and being able to manipulate people around them for their own personal gain.

They've been doing it for, for a lot of them as early as junior high. [00:09:00] By the time you meet them 10, 15, 20 years later, they're that far ahead of you and just being able to use those skill sets.

Speaker: Yeah. And to them, the manipulation is as a survival, right? It's a way to get their needs met. That's the way that they learned.

And it lacks emotion and empathy so it can feel cold. It can feel really harsh. I want gaslighting cause that's also a kind of a buzzword. So if somebody is experiencing gaslighting because gaslighting happens in all narcissistic or NPD relationships, let's talk about an example or what that feels like so that they can have an understanding of what to look for.

Speaker 3: You know, you're being gaslit when every time you bring up an issue to the narcissistic person in question, they somehow find a way to make it your fault, regardless of what happened. So it could be not taking out the trash. Um, forgetting to walk the dogs, walking the dogs without them or [00:10:00] anything. So basically no matter what you do and how you change your approach, it's always your fault.

The narcissistic person will be like, I'm angry because of your mistake. You deserve my anger and wrath because you messed up. You had one job today and they'll find a way to logically spin it so that you agree with that and think to yourself, I do deserve this punishment because I did make a mistake.

That's gaslighting.

Speaker: And that's why it's so fucking insidious because their logical explanation could make sense. And so you and I experienced this in, in the relationship that I got out of tour, it was like, well, fuck, am I the toxic one? Like, am I the one who's bringing all these problems? It's all my fault.

And it's hard to argue. Against that, because also in the gaslighting in my experience, you get so confused. It's almost like word salad, or they're just spitting all this stuff at you very fast and logically that you're like, okay, [00:11:00] that must make sense.

Speaker 3: Right. Exactly. It goes back to them being chess masters in which they they're strategically saying certain things and they're very methodical.

A lot of people don't fully acknowledge it until after the fact, like they will use their phrasing, their pitch, their tone, their rate of speech, their volume level, the specific words they use and the combination they use is all up for grabs for them. It's all chess strategy and manipulation. So if they know your inherent weaknesses, like if you're a person who's not very good at mental math.

They'll abuse that. If you're the type to avoid confrontation, they'll use that, or if certain words trigger you to lower your defenses, they'll take advantage of that. Anytime you're talking to a person on a higher narcissistic trend, you are playing a chess game with them, and you just don't know it, and that's the problem.

Speaker: Yeah, and they're gathering data from the beginning to be able to use against you later. Mm hmm. And when you start to show your vulnerabilities or to share [00:12:00] really sensitive triggers, they're just storing that for whenever they need to use that to their advantage.

Speaker 3: Exactly. Yeah. They're getting information from the second they lay eyes on you, your body language, the type of clothes you wear, the brands you wear, every little minute detail, they'll use it against you for their own personal gain.

Just even how you smile or what your eyes do when you talk to them, they'll pick up on those minute details. They're called micro expressions and we all have them. A person who's trained like a narcissist would be or could be, because they're using logic to take advantage of people around them, they'll pick up on those tiny details that for most people are subconscious, but all they have is their logic, that's what they rely on.

So they'll find logical ways to manipulate you with anything and everything at hand.

Speaker: Yeah, and that's in the gaslighting kind of experience too. Especially when you bring feelings to the table or when you try to set a boundary. That is why it can [00:13:00] feel so defeating to continue to want to bring those things to the table because they're automatically dismissed, right?

Not only dismissed, but they're spun so that you believe that feeling like you need whatever is too much and it's your fault. And inevitably, we stop trying to speak our needs and, and we kind of just succumb to It's too mentally exhausting to even bring something to the table because it's always so energetically overwhelming to have that conversation.

Speaker 3: Right, exactly. That's their ultimate goal is to get you to just submit to whatever they want as they want it and need it. And that way you don't incur their frustration. Ill will and wrath and frustration and anger. So in order to avoid punishment, you just succumb because in your mind, they've manipulated it enough and trained your logic to believe that if I don't act in a certain way, that's pleasing to this individual, I get punished.

It's a lot of [00:14:00] conditioning. It's social engineering is what we call it.

Speaker: It's so crazy to think that people, I kind of talk to clients about us living in different worlds. Like we're on this planet, narcissists are on this planet, and we don't understand how that works because they are so far beyond any behaviors that we would have.

I think that's helpful because this can feel very confusing on why somebody would treat someone else like this. And part of the gas line I think is also important is Their ultimate goal is to deflect it back onto you so that they don't have to feel any sort of responsibility or take accountability.

Talk a little bit about why they're so incapable of doing that.

Speaker 3: A lot of people don't recognize narcissists are incredibly insecure individuals. So a lot of them have a trauma background which feeds into the narcissistic personality disorder diagnosis. So growing up, most of these [00:15:00] individuals had a lot of rejection and often had narcissistic parents anyway.

So for them, it's how they survive. Right. They learned to be this way by going through it themselves to cope and survive. They learned to be logical and manipulative, but because they never received a lot of empathy, love, attention, affection, acceptance, they're actually quite fragile behind their hard exterior.

And so when you pinpoint one of the vulnerabilities, We make it their problem. They're so sensitive that they essentially panic and freak out. And that's when they become explosive. So essentially a narcissist is trying to survive in a world that never loved them or accepted them for who they are. It's a coping mechanism.

Speaker: Yeah. And really they feed on the need for other people's external validation. That's part of the love bombing that I want to get into too. I've also heard narcissists explained as parasites where they need a [00:16:00] host to provide their food, which is the validation. So let's talk about the love bombing because.

That's also a very confusing experience to go through.

Speaker 3: Absolutely. So one of the things about narcissists and particular people with NPD is one of the criteria to be diagnosed is a need for admiration. It's near constant, no matter how much they get, it's not enough. And so because they're so logical and manipulative, they'll pinpoint a target.

Particularly someone who's more empathetic or flexible, people pleaser, and they'll find out all the things that person needs and wants in a partner and become it. So then they'll do all the things that makes them lovable, likable. Flowers, chocolates, vacations, money, whatever it is that person is disclosing, either knowingly or not, they're reading that information and becoming that person for you.

Eventually, when they feel [00:17:00] like they have their hooks in and that you're not going to leave because they've orchestrated and manipulated the situation that you're kind of stuck, then they pull out the rug from underneath you and you get the full blown narcissist.

Speaker: Yeah, that's a really confusing experience because you see them at their best, right?

And so they're almost presenting this false reality. Persona. You fall in love with this false persona. That's not even them because they're just mirroring you. So you're, you're really falling in love with what you want.

Speaker 3: Exactly.

Speaker: And then when they start the other phases of the narcissistic cycle, there's a lot of clinging to what it was and holding on to the hope that they're going to go back to that.

Speaker 3: Yep.

Speaker: I call that place potential land where we dissociate from our reality and we're living in this fantasy place of like, When he shows up again or when he starts going to therapy, things are going to be better. And they never [00:18:00] go backwards. They never go back to the love bomb days.

Speaker 3: No, it's not in their best interest.

They have what they want and needed. And if anything, they'll just repeat the process with someone else to try to gain more of it for multiple people.

Speaker: But

Speaker 3: once they have your love, admiration and acceptance, they move on with it.

Speaker: They've won, right? That part of the game is over.

Speaker 3: So

Speaker: talk about the other stages.

What happens after the rug gets pulled?

Speaker 3: Essentially, they stop caring or even trying. So it's, it's all of their natural behaviors and their perceptions. It just comes out in full force. I've seen some become or heard through my clients of being physically aggressive and abusive. mentally, emotionally abusive, sexually abusive as well because they have no fear that Anything that you gave them is going to be removed.

So then it's just them unfiltered at that point

Speaker: And then they actually start to discard you. They start, [00:19:00] like, subtle, subtle ways to really break you down.

Speaker 3: Another part of the criteria of having NPD is fantasies and obsessions around power. Manipulation influence. If they can prove to themselves that they can orchestrate how you feel, that is validating for them because they must be so important that they have this amount of influence over you.

Speaker: Yeah, and oftentimes during that phase where they're putting you down, they're discarding you, they're not giving a shit anymore, they're also Working on another woman or the next host Or the inevitability of this relationship ending. Are you kicking them out or whatever? So like cheating All of those pieces come into play after the love bomb phase really.

Speaker 3: Yeah, 100 percent They're they're always looking to move to the next target. They never really stop. They're restless. That's the thing about Most narcissists is that they're actually quite hardworking, intelligent people. And [00:20:00] so once they grab a target, do what they need to do and get what they want, they're already planning their next move probably before they even finished their original move with you as the individual.

So they're probably targeting at least five, six other people, sometimes more depending on their social structure. And so they're strategically waiting and biding their time, collecting information, and then methodically moving forward with their plans.

Speaker: It's wild. I mean, even as we talk through this again, I'm just like, how?

Like, that takes so much, like, planning, but I, they've been practicing. So, is it possible to be in a long term relationship with a narcissist or have a marriage with a narcissist?

Speaker 3: Yeah, it's 100 percent possible. Rather or not, people are happy is a totally different question. So, one of the things people have approached me with is that very same question.

Is it possible? for me to stay in this marriage. And so I relate it to a scale. A lot of things regarding mental health and the world in general is on a spectrum. [00:21:00] So I will ask a client on a scale from zero to 10 and 10 being the highest, where do you put this person in your brain on a narcissistic scale?

Add a zero to that number. And that is the percentage chance of you being unhappy. So if they say there are five out of 10, I will say it's a 50 50 that you're going to be unhappy and miserable. If they tell me it's an eight out of 10, there's an 80 percent chance you're going to be unhappy and miserable.

So that's why I tell people evaluate this individual, really sit down and think and ask, Zero out of ten, where is this person?

Speaker: Yeah, there's this concept or phenomenon or whatever you want to call it of breadcrumbing, right? That they get you so, um, familiar with, such little attention and love, so that when they give little breadcrumbs, you cling to it, and that one thing wipes out all of the 15, 000 other breadcrumbs.

Things they did to hurt your feelings or make you miserable.

Speaker 3: 100 [00:22:00] percent because the reason why this works is that that one thing is designed to have you elicit that kind of reaction. So whatever that tiny thing is, it must be so important to you as the individual.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 3: That everything that Before it's just wiped clean and they know that and they habitually do that.

They even do it with their therapist. It's happened to me before where I will attempt to terminate with a client who's narcissistic because they're unmotivated and not really caring. They sense it and will give me just a little bit to keep us in the same relationship. It happens all the time. And when I eventually catch on, I just have to tell them either we fully engage or you find another therapist.

And that's you. It works with everyone, me included.

Speaker: It's, um, again, insidious. All of their behavior is so psychologically damaging

Speaker 2: and

Speaker: it is psychological and emotional abuse, what they're doing. And so I help to instruct clients and like keep objective, like objective data. Keep lists of people. [00:23:00] The things that they're doing that hurt you and the things that they're doing when they show up, quote, unquote, to look at things in black and white, you can't argue with the reality and you it's less likely that you'll let that one thing.

Wipe out your entire list.

Speaker 3: Absolutely. Yeah. I like that strategy because it helps keep track of what is and is not happening, what is and is not real. Because the, the goal of the narcissist, the higher into NPD that they are, their goal is to create a fantasy they can manipulate 'cause that's what they're preoccupied with is their own fantasies.

Oftentimes people. who are fall victim to narcissists, lose track of this information and data in reasons to either continue or discontinue that social engagement. And so by keeping track of it and keeping that private, it lets everyone add up is, What is not happening? How often? You'll start to recognize patterns because I see when I do clinical notes for my clients, after a couple of months of seeing them on a consistent basis, I go back [00:24:00] over my notes and I'm starting to see habitual patterns, which leads me to believe that they've changed.

are or are not fully blown NPD and how I treat that is entirely different.

Speaker: It's really fascinating being out of it now. It's very fascinating. But I was, so when I was in my narcissistic, but he was never clinically diagnosed, but all of his behavior checks, all of the boxes, it was such a feeling of confusion.

Speaker 2: And that's

Speaker: what you're talking about, where they're creating this fantasy. They're, they're spinning you around enough so that you're like, ah, I'm like here, it's all my fault. Like it's so. And so, part of what, like, my passion and purpose is to help people find clarity. Because once you recognize what's going on, that's when you gain your power back.

Speaker 3: Right.

Speaker: So, if somebody gets to that point where they're like, I'm starting to see it, I'm starting to see the gas lighting, like, how do you leave A relationship with a narcissist. [00:25:00]

Speaker 3: People have asked me that quite frequently. There's a lot of different strategies out there based off of the general public.

But the one that I've seen be most effective is work on setting very firm boundaries within yourself, because the narcissist knows all of your boundaries and limitations and has figured out a way to manipulate them without you knowing or feeling it all the time. And so if you're in a relationship with a narcissist and you're trying to exit that relationship, question yourself what your boundaries are, and then And in what ways does that person convince you to pull those boundaries down?

I always advocate to find a therapist who is willing to specialize in boundary work with you. There are plenty of therapists who specifically work with women trying to exit narcissistic relationships, much like yourself, because it takes a lot of boundary work to get there. The other thing is start cutting off communication, you know, where and when necessary.

So once you make that full exit. A lot of narcissistic clients will show stalker type behavior. [00:26:00] Plenty of my female clients, even years past that relationship, every once in a while that ex boyfriend narcissist will show up. Either they'll find them through social media, send them a DM or something, and then they'll use a false name and everything.

It's like they're catfishing intentionally for their previous person. So just cut off all communications. There's no need to revisit that if it was that horrendous for you.

Speaker: I really love the concept of starting to set boundaries because when they sense that you're no longer malleable, you're no longer of use to them.

Speaker 2: And

Speaker: so I experienced that in my situation too. When I started setting boundaries, He was uninterested. And I think it's such a place of empowerment to be able to set boundaries in general, but to do them with a narcissist is, is extra challenging. So to have support is really key there. Um, to touch on what you [00:27:00] mentioned about the stalker.

thing. There's also something called narcissism rage. When you end it, when there's a finality in like the getting validation from you, it can turn into sort of a rage cycle, right?

Speaker 3: 100%. So it's not a clinical term, but it is, it is well spoken about. So essentially I like to think of most narcissists as kids who just didn't grow up and ended up becoming adults through time.

So if you look at all of their behavior and think of like a child who, you know, she's too young to really understand social concepts. Most children are inherently narcissistic, but it's expected because they're kids and they're trying to survive and it's the parent's job to not only reinforce positive behavior, but to unconditionally give to that child.

In adult narcissists, is going to throw a fit. It's essentially what's happening. All of that sense of rejection and loss and you know, any abandonment [00:28:00] or any flashbacks of trauma from previous time, that will cause what I call just explosive behavior in which they'll be even more unpredictable than normal.

That's when there's a chance of hostility, aggression, more victimization of the person and so I've always, you know, coached. Clients are trying to exit. Be like a narcissist. Plan this out. Use your logical brain to figure out how you're going to separate the finances, when you're going to move out, where you're going to go, who you're going to be with.

Don't do this alone. Have a support structure. Get a therapist. You need to start playing a chess match with this person, not with the intention to Win the match, but to exit the match unharmed. I've always told clients, if you're trying to exit, once you commit to that exit plan, you just got to break it off.

Like they never existed, get rid of anything that you have from them. Anything that can be used to find you later, set higher privacy settings on all of your social media, things like that. So they can't [00:29:00] keep tracking your tags and posts and everything that you're doing. And just. Why revisit that if you're exiting for a reason and nothing good will come of it because they're not going to change on their own.

Me being a therapist who specializes in this, it takes me years to get that person to make enough changes for me to say you're no longer a narcissist. And I am a person who comes with a lot of education and expertise in it. Without that, all of that concrete knowledge that I have, you're gambling constantly.

And they know that and they're playing the odds in their favor. Unless you are looking to train that way, to have that level of expertise, don't try to change them. They're going to let you think that you're having an impact just to pull the rug out from underneath you and start this all over again.

Yeah, and so it's a never ending cycle for them. That leads them to essentially long term have no one. Because all the clients that I get that are narcissistic, they come to me because there's almost nothing left for them. [00:30:00] They have burned all the bridges they can regarding their social environment, their professional environment.

Um, a lot of them come to me because they're getting ultimatums from their current partners or the partner gave an ultimatum. They figured it was a bluff and then it wasn't. And because they, they never really stop that behavior until they learn to address their own emotions. It's just a never ending cycle.

And for them, it, over time, it becomes automatic. This is how they naturally are. Developing empathy, care, respecting boundaries is foreign to them. And whenever you're trying to learn something unfamiliar, it takes a lot of effort and time. For a narcissist, especially the older they are, the harder it is for them to reverse all of that behavior and training.

Speaker: I want to touch into, let's say the woman is married, they have a child and going no contact is not an option for

Speaker 2: them.

Speaker: Let's talk about gray rocking and what that is and how that works, how to do it. [00:31:00]

Speaker 3: Yeah. So the goal with Greg Rocking is controlling your own reactions, both physically, mentally, and emotionally to not give any kind of response or information to the narcissist.

You would have a very flat. Affect is what we call it. You're very monotone, flat. You don't really raise or lower your pitch or your tone ever changes. You're kind of just like a robot. Everything's very mechanical and unemotional. What that does to the narcissists is that they can't read anything because you're not giving off any signals so they don't know what to do with it.

It will cause a sense of explosive reactions because eventually they will become frustrated that they can't no longer manipulate your behavior. Your behavior and reactions. But if you're in a position in which you have to interact with a narcissist, be it your boss, a past relationship you share custody of a child with, your best go to is be as mechanical or robotic as you can.

Because the second you give any kind of reaction, [00:32:00] even if it's like minor, like raising your eyebrows just a tiny bit, they're going to pick up on that and take advantage of it. So you don't want to open the door in any way. You want to. Minimize communication as much as possible, but then if you have to communicate, don't open yourself up for anything in any capacity.

Speaker: To approach it in a very logical, I like the word robotic, I think that's like easy to sort of embody,

Speaker 2: um,

Speaker: which can be hard for people who typically get wrapped in relationships with narcissists because you're usually pretty empathetic and pretty like an emotional being. Um, that's almost like putting on a costume or playing a role.

Speaker 3: Yeah, essentially you fight narcissism with narcissistic behavior. You have to be intentional, methodical, you know, strategy, logic. You have to have an end goal in mind and work towards it. And that's hard for a lot of people because that's not how most individuals naturally are. We are, Inherently empathetic and emotional creatures.

And so [00:33:00] that's not normal for us to behave that way. But if you really think and understand a narcissistic person, how else can you survive that interaction and engagement without acting somewhat like them?

Speaker: Keep yourself out of the cycle.

Speaker 3: Exactly. Yeah. Cause that's what it is. They'll trap you in a cycle and you're just locked there until you decide to leave.

Speaker: One of the other questions, or I guess, like When some of my clients are arguing with themselves on whether they're a narcissist or not, it's like, well, he's not, like, mean. I think there's some attention around the malignant narcissist, which is outwardly trying to cause you pain.

Speaker 2: There

Speaker: are other types of narcissism, right?

And that can present in different, different ways.

Speaker 3: Yeah. I'm glad you brought this up. Clinically speaking, as far as mental diagnosis, it's pretty black or white. Either you meet the criteria for NPD or you don't, or you're somewhere on the spectrum of the narcissism. [00:34:00] When people discuss these other types and the research I've done.

There's not a complete consensus on the number of types, how they present, or what their label is. The most common ones is covert, malignant, seductive, or sexual, are the three that are almost always there. What I see narcissistic clients as all of those types. Cause from my brain, it's all a strategy. And so they might not be mean when you're there, but they're being mean to other people, or they're doing it in ways that's extremely subtle because they're just particularly good at being mean and yet subtle.

So for me, I've seen it all with my clients and it's all a strategy according to the situation. When people discuss different types, I say it's not really how they are all the time. It's more of a strategy that's working right now. When that strategy ceases to work, they'll change it up, which is what I've seen.

If I, if they're trying to be really manipulative, [00:35:00] but subtle, I'll challenge and call them out on it. And the next time I see them, they have a more overt, you know, engagement with me. If I challenge that, then they'll, you know, if it's different genders, they'll try more seductive route. They're just using all those types as like, what strategies work in here?

Just like in chess, people who know chess know that there's There's names for all of the strategies. It's just what's happening right now, which strategy is going to work.

Speaker: Yeah. Cause outwardly they could be in positions where everybody loves them and very charitable, or they can look like the best fucking person on earth, which is all part of the strategy.

Speaker 3: Even if you Google narcissistic types, what you're going to see in common ground between all of them is it's all narcissistic behavior. It's focused on their own ego, regardless if they're being coy about it or just being blunt about it and open, or if it has to do with spirituality or being seductive.

The one thing that stands out with the types is the [00:36:00] malignant. type of narcissist in which people describe it, even within my field, people describe it as a combination of narcissism and antisocial behavior. And so what really happens is narcissists alone lack empathy. They lack remorse and emotional acknowledgement.

Every once in a while, you'll get an individual who's also antisocial, in which they don't conform to any kind of boundaries within society. Narcissists do. They'll follow the law if that's what's in their best interest. Otherwise, they'll break it. But someone who's antisocial has no regard for any boundary of any kind and they're focused on themselves, which means that they lack empathy.

That's when we get this malignant type. Also closely related to psychopaths and sociopaths, people who are like serial murderers. That's where this comes from is there's such little acknowledgement for boundaries and a lack of emotional response that they're highly volatile and dangerous. [00:37:00]

Speaker: Yeah, that was my experience.

I would diagnose him as malignant narcissist and to To experience that behavior was so bizarre because not only was it the complete opposite of the person that I thought I had been with for four years, but it was like going out of his way to cause me pain, psychological pain, emotional pain, feeling threats of physical safety, all of

Speaker 2: it.

Speaker: It was very overt to the point where like I was explaining what was happening to me to my friends that they couldn't like, That around how they didn't see it.

Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, that's what narcissists do. They set up a fantasy for everyone involved that benefits them alone. And so if they're trying to keep a particular target being you, the individual, they also know they need to manipulate everyone around you.

That way, if anything happens, you don't have any backup and you're the person who's not believable because they have set themselves up as the person with [00:38:00] credentials and reliability. That's all intentional. They methodically went person by person, sometimes years in the making, cause that's just what they do.

And when things don't go their way, there's the chance that they become explosive and that's when you see their true nature and how they operate when nothing's really working. And so that malignant type is essentially a person with no emotional regard, no care or fear or concern for boundaries. So if an individual who's inherently focused on themselves has no limitations, why not take it to that extreme?

Because that's going to benefit them. It doesn't matter about you or anyone else.

Speaker: I think two red flags that you can look for is, is one, if, if they're starting to isolate you like you're talking about, where they're,

Speaker 2: they're

Speaker: manipulating everyone around you so that you slowly don't have any friends or family that you can lean on or that believe you.

Speaker 2: And

Speaker: then another red flag, I don't know if this is true of all narcissists, but they don't typically have long standing friendships, right? Or [00:39:00] have people come in at different phases of their life and then they discard them too.

Speaker 3: Correct, yeah. Most, most don't maintain long relationships because of their behavior and how they are.

Eventually people will catch on or become sick of it and leave the relationship. One of the clients I work with is not a narcissist, but his friend is. After about Five years he's decided to end that relationship permanently because of the narcissistic behavior. So one marker is what does their social environment look like?

How long lasting are those relationships? How far back do those things go? The less information there is there, that is a red flag because most people have at least one person who's been around for a while.

Speaker: Yeah, I didn't know that was red flag to look for when I was looking. I actually wasn't looking for a flag.

But I hope that. Clients and people who get to experience this video and your work and learn more about narcissism have more tools at their, at their [00:40:00] disposal to be able to, to help avoid getting into these situations in the first place. Because it's kind of inevitable that we're going to come across people like, even if you've done all your healing work and are exceptionally boundaried, you might still get sucked into something, right?

But it's a matter of recognizing it and then leaving quicker.

Speaker 3: 100 percent yeah. The interesting thing about narcissism and all the data is that it's almost inherently inaccurate because most narcissists They're so crafty even to the professional eye that not all of us catch it. And so how many of them are willing to admit and then be become part of that statistic that professionals like me rely on.

I've met plenty throughout my life, probably because I'm just more attuned to it being, you know, mental professional. And this is what I focus on. Um, but even people who've done the healing process and went through everything to, you know, As long as you have a job, you're always at risk to run into one because they're everywhere.

They don't really look a [00:41:00] particular way, but they feel and behave in certain ways, but they're always trying to hide that. So even if you don't acknowledge it, like there's at least one around you somewhere, especially if you're not fully remote, there's narcissist in your entire office company. There's no way that there's not the data that wound that up.

Whether or not you're a target depends and so if you're not a target you just don't acknowledge it because they don't want anything from you or what you have is not something they care to get but it only matters when they choose you and that's when everything starts.

Speaker: Yeah, that's where being really boundaried and confident in yourself comes in because then you're less appealing to them.

I want to touch on what you just said about the feeling. I talk to my clients about having, after you've been through an experience with a narcissist, You have an internal alarm system. What that behavior felt like. When you're in a room of people and start to feel like you can't, maybe you can't name why you don't want to talk to that person or name [00:42:00] what feels icky, but that's like, Hey, this is familiar.

Pay attention.

Speaker 3: Yeah, so I've seen this a lot with people who have gone through that experience and have eventually come to a place of just feeling confident and have healed. And I tell people this as a joke, but it's somewhat true. Like I can smell someone's mental health. What's really happening is my subconscious is trying to signal something for me and that informs my decision making.

So if you have a lot of experience with addicts, you could just pick up subconsciously someone who is or is not struggling with substance use. So if you have a lot of experience with narcissists, it's the exact same way. I always tell people, trust your instincts because you're, Your brain and body is designed to keep you alive no matter what.

And so we often get these signals like something's off. I don't know. I don't really care for this person. Something creeps me out, but I don't see anything.

Speaker 2: Do

Speaker 3: you have to have concrete evidence to [00:43:00] keep yourself safe? What are you saying if you say, no, I don't need concrete evidence. You're being.

Unnecessarily risky. Trust your gut, trust your instinct. If you have previous experience, trust that if something is off putting, that is your subconscious trying to scream at you and say, Hey, get out. You don't see it, but that part of your brain's like, we need to leave now and just forget this place.

Never come back to this coffee shop. Never talk to that guy's face again. Leave, never come back. It's okay. We'll get coffee somewhere else.

Speaker: Yeah, it's like your body is non biased. You know, it's just giving data. It's like, hello, we've done this. It's almost more trustworthy than our mind because our mind will talk ourself out of it or rationalize around it because emotion and heart take over sometimes.

Speaker 3: Trust your instincts if you have the experience. What's the worst that's going to happen? If you trust your instincts, you stay safe, you stay happy and comfortable. I mean, because you feel like you're being irrational because it's [00:44:00] a hunch. I say that sometimes being irrational is what keeps people safe.

You know, you don't need the concrete evidence and no narcissist is going to tattoo it on their forehead. I'm narcissistic. Like you're not going to know until after the fact anyway, why chance it?

Speaker: Yeah, and if for some reason, going back to the inevitability of getting sucked in for a minute, or it's like, look for the red flags, look for their inability to take accountability, look for the gaslighting, look for everything being centered around themselves and needing validation, and what happens when you set a boundary?

Do they respect it? Is there open communication? Or is it like, that's your fault? You know, there's, The red flags I think are a big part of staying sane.

Speaker 3: Yeah, if you're trying to invite someone into your life and you're not entirely sure and you've had negative experiences in the past, test it.

Specifically with narcissists, test their level of empathy. Set a boundary and see [00:45:00] how they respond. Check out their social network. Try to get to know their friends. Test the waters, always. You know, if you're not getting clear messages one way or another, then just trust your instincts and move forward with that.

That's all you really need.

Speaker: I think that's important in dating also. And I can speak to my clients are fucking terrified of getting into another relationship. Right. Cause they're like, and so using the dating process as a way of, again, gathering data, testing the boundaries, can they show up to a conversation?

Is it this. Too good to be true. Let's go to Bali after knowing each other for two weeks, you know, there's some things that you can see through the love bombing because also during the love bomb phase, if you tried to set boundaries or speak about something real, it wouldn't, it still wouldn't go well, even though you're in that sporic place.

Speaker 3: Several clients of mine right now, younger women who've gone through the narcissistic relationship. Feeling ready to date. Again, I brought this [00:46:00] up recently is how do I avoid finding another narcissist and repeating this process? And part of the scary truth is you might not have, you might not be able to because they're, they're crafting always changing their strategies and how they approach and manipulate.

The best thing you can do is set up a strategic defense. What is your criteria for selecting a dating person? Where do you find these people? You might not want to date people in professional settings all the time because the higher up you go in a company, the more likely they are to be a narcissist. So that's one thing to consider.

Or is it always bars where you're likely to find a narcissist because they're trying to take advantage of someone who's not completely coherent anyway. And so, you know, set things up in public, trust your instincts. What kind of signals do you need to see in order to even take the next step forward? If you don't see them, then contemplate.

If I can get the list of things I have to have to feel safe checked, is it [00:47:00] worth taking a chance knowing what's possibly out there? You know, it's why people are scared of the ocean. We don't really know what's there, yet we know things can be harmful, they can also be beautiful, but it's kind of uncontrolled and we can't see everything and that's what dating feels like.

After you've gone through that experience, it's like you're just diving into the ocean and hoping. You find a dolphin, not a shark.

Speaker: I think another, um, thing to be aware of when you're dating is to not reveal all of you in the very beginning, because part of building trust with someone is like, I'm a little vulnerable with you.

And then you're a little vulnerable with me. You build levels of things you're willing to share, or you don't dive into all your traumas on the first date. And I think sometimes part of a narcissist strategy is to make They almost make you reveal all of your stuff so that they can be the savior for all of your stuff.

Speaker 3: It's a very effective strategy particularly for people who have a lot of trauma and it's kind of [00:48:00] apparent because I'm a therapist I can just tell the behaviors and the reactions to how I present myself if there's a sense of trauma there or not. Narcissists, some of them will target people with higher rates of trauma.

That's the reason why those same individuals are more likely to have repeat narcissistic relationships. It's because they're targeted by the narcissist. Disclosing their trauma, giving a lot of information, and then the narcissist then manipulates everything to their own benefit, re traumatizing the same person over and over again.

Speaker: Yeah. In order to build a relationship with someone, you don't have to disclose everything about you all at one time. In fact, like, I, the feedback or the, um, comeback that I get from clients around that is like, well, I want to be genuine. I want to be authentic. I want them to know who I actually am. And I, I caution them of even if it's not a narcissist, that's, that's [00:49:00] something that someone has to earn.

Someone has to like prove that they're trustworthy to be able to hold that information.

Speaker 2: And so

Speaker: thinking about your traumas and what makes you you as these little gems that As they further in the levels, they get to access more gems.

Speaker 3: Right. I always told clients trust is something I believe it should be earned, not given.

Um, I, I totally respect and, and validate wanting to be authentic and true to yourself and genuine, because that does build healthy relationships. I would say if you're concerned about running into someone who's going to take advantage of it, have a system for that, have a method. You know, be it gems or levels or layers, whatever it is you got to do, you have to find ways to filter out behavior.

Which is where I say in order to protect yourself from a narcissist, you kind of have to be like one and adopt that mentality is what can you do to gain some information to see is this person safe? [00:50:00] Are they having a narcissistic response right now? Because I said a boundary. Maybe I'll just set one and see how they react.

Respond. If they respond by just respecting it, that will tell you how they are. But if all of a sudden they're acting slightly different or being a little bit more aggressive, it's like, whoa.

Speaker 2: Yeah.

Speaker 3: If I can't even set a boundary with you, we barely know each other. I don't think I even want to see you again anyway.

Speaker: Yeah. And not discrediting the data. It's so

Speaker 3: important.

Speaker: So important.

Speaker 3: 100%.

Speaker: Yeah.

Speaker 3: 100%.

Speaker: Is there anything else that you think is really important to know or to speak about before we wrap up?

Speaker 3: I would want most people to know who've had negative interactions with narcissists is don't blame yourself. It's, it's not your fault that it, you know, the trauma or the pain or the guilt happened.

These people are trying to get that response out of you. It's not something you did wrong. It's really a chance. I mean, Not that many [00:51:00] people are high enough on the narcissistic scale to, for, to be called narcissists or have a diagnosis. So the odds of you meeting that person is still relatively low. The threat is always there, but if it ever happens or already has happened, their goal is to make it your fault.

And so by you saying, You know, how did this happen to me in hindsight? Like, what did I do wrong? Like, that's them. That's, that's the narcissist speaking, not you. What you need is to just have acceptance and forgiveness for the fact that you did your best with what you had and it didn't work. That's all you really can do.

Speaker: Yeah, yeah, that in, in a, in effect, feeling guilty and shameful about it is actually letting them win ultimate win, right? Because I really see the win if we, if we need to categorize a win, like you saw what was happening and you got out like that is, that is the win you win, like, to [00:52:00] consistently give yourself kindness and compassion.

And like hindsight is always a bitch because we always get things more clear now. So to let yourself heal, let yourself grieve, let yourself move through the trauma of what happened without adding another layer of shame on top of it.

Speaker 3: Yeah, if anyone takes one thing away from this whole experience is don't ever play chess with a narcissist.

They're, they're, they spend way too much time in their own head practicing the maneuvers and strategies and memorizing things. They're very good. So if you think you're caught in a chess game with the wrong person, your strategy to win is to exit that game and just move on.

Speaker: Yeah, and not get sucked into all of the manipulation that they want you to Feel and experience to keep you hooked in.

Speaker 3: 100 percent Absolutely.

Speaker: Ah, James, I am such a big fan of you. I think the [00:53:00] message that you have and the way that you work with not only narcissists, but also people who have been in relationship with narcissists is so vital. Really, really appreciate you sharing your knowledge and your time.

Speaker 3: My pleasure helps people who need resources.

That's what I'm all about. So, I mean, the pleasure is really all mine and for you, um, keep up the good work. I hope you're proud of yourself. I know I'm proud of you and what you do, and lots of people need individuals like you to, you to care and to help and power to you and power to the people who are willing to take this message and find growth and healing from it.

Speaker: Thank you. All right, James. Thank you so much.

Speaker 3: Absolutely.

​

Who baby. There's so much to recap on this episode at so many good, important points that I want you to take home. So let's, let's just remember what we talked through with James. This episode really taught you first and foremost, that narcissists lack emotion and [00:54:00] empathy and are inherently very insecure. And they rely on logic and deflection and strategy and validation and manipulation as survival. So the next time that you're asking yourself, why is the narcissist doing what they're doing? You can go back to that.

Very answer

and they are chess masters that have been practicing how specifically to move the ponds around the board in order to get their self-serving needs met. You also learned that narcissistic personality disorder, the full blown diagnosis, mental health diagnosis. Is actually pretty rare, but it is under recorded so we can hold both of those things at the same time. Narcissism is on a spectrum.

And what matters more than the diagnosis is how you feel. Around that person. So paying attention to how you feel in your body.

So it's so, so important that you [00:55:00] are staying aware that you are gathering your data around your interactions. That you're setting boundaries. That you're a gray rocking and that you're making a plan. If you want to exit making a very logical strategic plan. Using the same sort of tools that the narcissist would use. And the red flags that you really want to look out for specifically are feeling confused.

Like you're being gas lit. Feeling like the beginning is way too. Good to be true. Like you're being loved bombs, uh, feeling like you're being isolated from friends or family. And noticing if they have a longstanding relationship with friends, they don't, that's a red flag.

You also now know from this episode, how it is possible to maintain a relationship with a narcissist. It's just a matter of your happiness level. So how to gauge how happy you will be in the relationship versus how much of a narcissist you think that they are. There's [00:56:00] always choice. So it's weighing a million different things, as you are starting to think about these relationships, but knowing that. It's possible. If you choose that route.

And really taking home, the reminder that. Narcissists can look a lot of different ways. Sometimes we can get really caught up in what type of a narcissist is he or is he a diagnosable? And the most important thing that we can really drive home is to just pay attention to how you feel. Do what is in your control?

Work on your boundaries, work on your confidence. Test the waters with setting those boundaries and asking to have tough conversations. And allowing yourself to really receive the data.

What are the consistencies? What are the patterns. And the more that you do that the more that will be revealed to you about this person's capability of being in an intimate relationship with you. And most importantly, please, please, please, please, please [00:57:00] get support. As I talk about in almost all of these episodes, it is so hard to make sense of a narcissist behavior. And to heal from a narcissist experience by yourself. We need other people to help us come back into reality that we have been detached from for a very long time.

We need other people to help us start to feel into who we are.

We need other people to walk with us in that journey. So I'm here for you always there's links in the show notes for an interest form that you can fill out if you feel called to do so. I would be so honored to meet you. Otherwise find a safe person. Be it, a friend, a family member, a therapist, somebody that can hold space for you while you are moving through this experience. And because this was an old episode with James.

We did not pull an Oracle card. So I'm going to go ahead and pull an Oracle card for us right now. And I'm just going to ask the deck. What does the message. That the listeners [00:58:00] need to hear to day.

We got elixir. It is a picture of a. Potion. I would say it looks like it's in a cauldron of some kind.

So I'll find the message in the book here, and I'll read you. What elixir has to say.

It looks serious here because it is time. The medicine is within you. It flows through you like blood. The healing energy of self-love and goodness are here for you now, as they have always been. Open yourself up to embrace your woundedness. It looks, there is a source of your power, clean the dirt from your wound. Gently apply the solve you need, whether it be music connecting with others, rest or screaming at the sunset. Quick, quit picking the scab. Allow the natural process of healing to occur with the power of your intention. Patients and care are required.

Now

move through the pain and you will wear your scars with honor and reverence. For the whole of life's experiences that you have lived. [00:59:00] Use your medicine. You are healing, you will heal. Ah, I love that it looks, there is not one that comes out very often in this deck. So that is a very special message for you today. And if you enjoyed this episode, I'm going to point you to episode 47.

It is called was any of it real? Signs that you've been deceived in a narcissistic relationship. That is another interview episode where Hillary shares her story of finding out that she was living in a false reality that had been created by her narcissistic acts and how she moved through that healing process. As always you are not alone.

This podcast is for you. And I will see you in the next episode.