Hello, welcome back to Promoted.

I'm your host Felicity Fury, CEO and co founder of We Aspire.

I am in Meanjin Brisbane today on beautiful Jaggerra and Turrbal country in sunny Brisbane enjoying this warm weather and I'm so grateful for the people who've taken care of this land which we are meeting on Renee.

I'm joined by blah blah blah.

I'm joined by my fabulous co host Renee Wood and she's an aerospace engineer, pilot and speaker if you did not know.

Renee, where are you calling in from today?

Hello and welcome.

Thank you, so great to be here.

I am calling in from Durawaya country up on the Great Dividing range into Toowoomba, my home.

I've just gotten back from Singapore before that was in the US for three months as you all know.

So it is actually very wholesome to be home finally.

Yeah, you've got Taco the dog in the background which I do.

Taco sitting next to me, support my intern.

I love it, love the taco vibes in the background.

Today we are talking about an interesting topic which I feel like you are a pro in Renee which is all around how do you actually have the conversation to get promoted?

I reckon be one of the people who in my life has had the most promotions ever.

You have just like boom, boom boom throughout your career.

Yeah.

And tell yourself this has been something I've had a lot of conversations with people about actually.

And there was one thing that changed my perspective on this.

So we're talking how do you get promoted?

How do you have that conversation?

And the first thing that comes to my mind is this video from Barbara Cochran.

Actually she's one of the sharks in Shark Tank in America and it changed my whole perspective on this when I saw it so often.

I used to think that getting promoted was you walk into your boss's office, you have the conversation or it's promotion review time.

That's the moment to have the conversation.

And she said now you should be having this conversation six months before and there should be a lead up to it.

And it was such an aha moment for me.

It's just my perspective on this and it changed how I speak to my manager, it changed how I set up these conversations, changed so many things around setting expectations, what goals look like.

It had a huge flow on effect.

Just that one idea.

Renee, how do you think about it?

Do you think six months advance is 12 months, is it longer?

Is it shorter?

I don't know know what's your perspective?

Well, I mean having the conversation About a promotion has come about in numerous ways for me.

You know, speaking to, you know, an opportunity where I was headhunted, that was kind of.

I didn't even ask for the promotion.

I was just given it on a silver platter.

I just had to say yes.

Decades of work in the end, not happen often.

And then, you know, for my current job as Global Director of New Market Development, completely new field for me.

Well, in a way, and certainly the most senior role I've ever had in my career.

And funnily enough, when I applied for this job, I applied for a lower level job.

But I told them I wanted a higher level job because I told them my mission, what I was here to do to the change I wanted to make and the role that I thought I was fitting for.

So I sold them my dream essentially.

And I just for awareness, I really had to sell it.

I had eight interviews with all of the VP's and the CEO of this company.

And so, you know, I got thrown the most curly questions you can imagine.

You know, what was the most pivotal moment in your childhood and what makes you you today?

It's like, I have never had that question in my life and I'm not sure you're ready for the answer.

So, yeah, certainly my promotions have come about through a range of different conversations.

But what I would say is, you know, the headhunter role that got pitched for was because I had a relationship with those people and they knew my work ethic, they knew me, they knew what I was capable of before they offered me that job.

So there was that.

But then, you know, I went from engineering a project engineering role at a company called CAE Australia into a commercial strategy manager role at Western Sydney Airport.

And when I made that jump to paint a picture, I was project engineering an upgrade on military aviation simulators.

I had a team of maybe 30 engineers that I was pulling together to deliver this upgrade.

None of them reported to me, but I was managing their workflow.

And then I went to Western Sydney Airport in a commercial strategy manager role.

Completely new expertise, new way of thinking.

Probably one of the biggest stretches that I've had personally in my career.

And I wasn't.

I didn't have a team underneath me.

I was the team delivering the work.

So, you know, promotion doesn't always look like a team and more people reporting to you.

It can look like many different levels of accountability and responsibility.

And in that job interview, I was really hungry for that role.

But little did I know that the manager at the time prioritized choosing engineers to enter her team because they knew how meticulous and detail oriented they were.

And that was kind of something that worked in my favor in that regard.

I'm sure my work experience also played into that.

But, you know, that was just a great, you know, magic opportunity where values and skill sets aligned.

So I don't have a secret sauce.

But what I can say is the one thing that has always worked incredibly well for me, and I think this applies to everyone in the world.

You need to have a very solid why about why you are going for that job.

Because people can pick apart a few.

You've just written a resume and thrown it out to 50 different people, and you turn up to the interview and you use the wrong name of the company, or you can't demonstrate your connection and your emotional attachment or your mission around why you want that job.

People see through it straight away.

And when I think I've kind of said in previous episodes with you, Felicity, I've been very intentional with the decisions I've made in my career, so I can always very clearly demonstrate why I'm sitting in that hot seat at that time.

What about you?

Oh, good question.

Yeah, I certainly think having really like being clear on your why and your story and what makes you unique.

So I often think about, you know, sometimes it can just be like, who's up for promotion right now, especially if you're working in a large organization.

So I.

And this goes for things like awards as well.

I think about this a lot.

For something like an award is rich.

Literally making a list of all the things, like all the things that are about you.

And it could be your strengths, it could be your personality, your staff, things like work.

I think you mentioned Renee and actually going through and then looking at what are those things that most people that are going to apply for promotion or put themselves forward for this opportunity, what are they going to have in common?

So usually I'm in an engineering world, so engineer.

Okay.

Most people are going to have some kind of engineering qualification.

I think one thing that set me apart in my career is ability to talk to clients or be able to be thrown into clients.

People really appreciate that.

They value that.

So that's something.

Okay, cool.

I'm going to really talk about that strength.

So having that list of what makes you stand out from everybody else, I think is really, really important.

And then I think what something that's really helped me consider promotions or, you know, consider how do I frame a promotion in a conversation with a manager has been to talk to other people.

Who are more senior and more experienced.

So not talking to my manager, but talking to my manage, like my boss's boss's boss, you know, like three or four levels up.

Or people who I have spoken to a lot of CEOs at different companies.

I remember actually when I went to the uk, this is the kind of thing I do on holidays, Renee.

So I'm going to the UK for holiday.

Better meet my husband Michael, my husband, his family, for the first time.

And I was like, how can I get value out of this holiday?

Like, how do I make it worth my while?

So one of my mentors used to work in the uk.

She used to work Michelle.

And I said to her, who do you know?

Like, who could be some people I could meet in London?

And she gave me this.

I met three people.

They're all incredible.

One was a former politician.

She was Ross Kelly.

She was the first lady to breastfeed in Parliament.

She was epic.

And I also met the CEO, Shell.

Amazing.

And he.

I was like, what does it take to be you?

Like, how do I be a CEO?

How do I be an executive?

And I'll never forget, he got a pen and paper.

I love it when people do this in meetings.

They get out pen and paper and they start drawing.

You think it was awesome.

So he drew a staircase and he said, you know, this is a CEO role, and there are all these different stairs that you've got to kind of step on along the way.

And he's like, but there's not an order to them.

It could just be, you need to know P and L, you need to know strategy, you need to know commercial, you need to have all these different skills.

So he's like, when you're looking for opportunities or the next thing, say, to get promoted in is look at, you know, is there a piece that puzzle that I can fill?

And sometimes it's something that's a bit left of feel.

For example, there's an amazing lady who's in the aviation space, Karen Rambo.

And she.

I remember she was sharing how she took a role at GE that was around sales and marketing, because it meant.

Similar to your story, Renee, actually.

And taking that role that you previously Qantas, it gives you some of those strategic things that you might not necessarily pad in.

And for Karen, it was around her engineering as well.

So I think looking several steps ahead and looking at what are some of those skills I can develop now.

Now you might have this conversation with your manager and they might say, look, you're not ready for a Promotion or it's not the cycle or whatever reason they have.

I've seen lots of people get promoted out of cycle, so that is something I know that comes up a lot, really delving into, okay, what would you need to see to get me, for me to have that role, for me to have that promotion?

Here's where I feel like I'm doing those things already, or what are those gaps?

And actually say, can we have a conversation now to come up with a plan for how I can get there and actually get those steps really clear, written down.

Because you want to be able to go to them in six months time and say, hey, thank.

And not just pop up six months later like, hey, that conversation six months ago.

You want to be, whether it's once a month or every couple of months, having that conversation.

Here's how I'm tracking, being proactive about that.

Hey, I went and tried doing some, you know, client engagement.

I found it was really challenging.

Have you got any advice on how I can improve or whatever?

The thing is you're trying to develop yourself in so your manager is kept up to date.

So again, there's not a surprise when you say, hey, we've been having this conversation for six months.

Why?

It was like, why should I not?

Because I've done everything that you've asked.

And I would say, I have seen this, you know, not go so well for people in the sense of it's really subjective.

And I think that's a real trap is that if you have a manager who might not see the world the same way that you do, which happens a lot, certainly happens a lot in my experience, then they might not see those development things and they might create some new hurdles to jump through, which can be a really frustrating process as well.

Because then you might get to that six month mark.

You've done everything on the list.

You've done everything, quote, unquote, right?

But then there's still hurdles to get through.

And I've seen that to be quite a barrier for young people, particularly in technical roles who are trying to get promoted.

That, yeah, that's not there.

And it's about like, oh, you just need to have threes experience.

Right?

Yeah, that's random.

Renee, I apologize.

No, that was a great ramble.

We all, we all learned something from that, Felicity.

But what I will, will take note of is just the lead up time that you referred to earlier.

So what are the things that you need to be thinking about in preparation for these conversations?

So Felicity's just given you a great amount to consider around what action you need to take, who you should be speaking to.

But what I want to just brush over is the lead up time, I think is really important.

So if you want to be promoted or you think you should be promoted in the short term, the process you take is very different to you planning for a promotion in the longer term term.

So that longer term is, hey, I think in a year or six months to nine months, I want a promotion.

I'm going to start having those conversations and really referring to those gems of wisdom that Felicity just referred to.

But I think that if you have left it a bit late, you haven't really planned and you think you're deserving of a promotion today, then there's a bit of a different process that I would take.

So I would prepare for a conversation with your manager.

I would certainly write down all of the tasks that you're doing and where you think you're achieving and contributing potentially more than what your original role requirements outlined.

And whilst you did say, Felicity, that you think it's a bit subjective around whether or not you deserve a promotion, I think coming back to your job description and potentially people in the position above you and using their position and if it's, if there's no position above you within your immediate team, even going outside of your team and asking people that are in those sorts of level roles that you're seeking and getting a really clear understanding around what are they doing in order to deliver at that level, I think that's a great basis then for you to justify and say, here's where I'm meeting the next level up expectations and preparing for that as much as possible is always the best case.

Because just to Felicity's point earlier, you can be asking for opportunities to step up and to get that experience, but where you think you're already achieving it, then demonstrating that through these position descriptions will be really valuable and potentially even advocating for, you know, where are you going in the longer term.

So telling your boss the story, again, this storyline is so important in justifying where to go to next.

Because let's say in best case, you're in a team that you absolutely love and you're going for your boss's job one day and that might be a five year journey to get there, right?

So how can you be talking to your manager and saying, I'm on this pathway, I want what you've got.

This is what I'm doing today, this is why I think I deserve a promotion.

And just so you know, I'm coming for your job.

And I, I would love to be mentored and coached by you because that really then demonstrates that you have respect for their role and that you want to learn from them.

But also you can justify what you're already giving back today on top of your role.

So.

And I think that those conversations can be quite hard.

Again, it depends what sort of boss you have.

And this is where the subjectivity and the gray zone really comes in around preparing for these conversations.

So if you've got a great relationship with your boss, generally that's a really easy conversation.

If you've got a bit of a prickly relationship with your manager, I think that as much preparation as possible and being really clear around what you want, how you're contributing, how you're going to get there, or how you've already worked hard to get there, and just really justifying yourself and then letting them know where you want to go to next and why it's important that you get this promotion.

I think that that's important.

It's not just about money.

It's about, you know, you are capable, you want to grow yourself.

This is about personal development and giving back even more than what you're already doing today.

And I think that's.

That's the secret sauce.

Yeah, yeah.

Such a good point.

And it's also, I think, not just one conversation with one boss.

You are likely working in a team and you're likely working in a company.

I mean, imagine if your boss was hearing all these fantastic things about you from their colleagues, right?

So how can you impress their colleagues?

Do those things that are going to make a difference in the whole organization?

And look, I think a lot of people have an expectation around promotion.

And when I was younger, I for sure had those same expectations starting out of my career, like, oh, I've been here this time, then I should get promoted.

But you know what?

Actually, it takes.

It takes effort, it takes work.

And I used to think, oh, well, I'm doing my job, I should get promoted.

And then often the feedback would be, oh, well, if you want to get promoted to the next level, you've got to be operating at that level.

And I was like, that doesn't even make sense to me.

But I actually think it's a really helpful tip and just what you're sharing there as well, Renee, around looking at that role description for what's that next level up?

How can you actually start doing those things now without anyone asking you?

And I think that's a thing that a lot of people Miss Is that doing that bit extra, going above and beyond will set you apart from so many people and position you in that way that's going to have you stand out no matter what you're doing.

And I think also you touched on gathering the evidence for that.

So what is the actual business evidence that you are doing that?

Not like, oh, I'm performing well or I'm doing a great job?

No, actually the role description says I need to be managing up to five projects within this budget.

Okay.

These are the pro, like, write it down.

These are the specific projects that I'm managing.

And that's just a random example.

But whatever's in that role description gets super specific and super tangible on the work that you're, that you are doing.

And it's likely that you work in a business or you work in an organization that's got KPIs, it's got strategic drivers.

Myself, as a business owner, if someone came to me and said, hey, look, I have brought in this extra revenue for the business, I deserve a pay rise, I'd be like, well, absolutely you do.

You brought in this extra above your role.

That makes logical sense.

Sense.

If you're a consultant, it might be my utilization or I, you know, invented this checklist which has saved this time that's improved these efficiencies within the business, whatever it might be.

What are those things that actually are helping those business drivers?

It might be that you work at local council and the driver is around community engagement and stakeholders.

Well, actually, here is the way that I managed our risk around stakeholders.

And while it might not be tangible dollars, I've actually saved all this money.

So what are those tangible examples that you can present for your case for that promotion?

Yeah, it's such an interesting one.

Just the whole debate that you referred to then around stepping up and doing more than you're paid to do as well, because I think that there is a lot of, I guess, gardeners and union work even around, you know, you shouldn't have to do more than your role until you're.

I'd probably upset all the unions here, Renee.

Yeah, all the union workers.

But, you know, to that point, it's generally, let's say it's not workload that you're taking on over and above your role because you can't because you're in a unionized workforce.

Then it's your relationships, it's how much people trust you, it's the potential they see in you that generally comes from your reliability and you standing up and stepping up when others need you.

But certainly I think if you are somebody that's helping and going above and beyond, it's so much easier to use that as a space to justify that promotion.

And as a parent of two, you know, I am time poor and there's only limited space I have.

I think there's little things that we can do, like just taking a moment to stop and think and take some initiative.

You know, just then they can be, they can be such small things, like even to your colleague or your manager, hey, I just thought, you know, every meeting you're taking the minutes and sharing, hey, do you want me to take a load off?

Do you want me to do the minutes?

Like, and you actually literally just, just do them in the meeting.

Like something really simple that doesn't take extra time.

And it's a really good point, Renee, because we, you know, a lot of people, including myself, struggling with work, life, balance, so that's really tricky.

How do I get everything done in the time that I need to get it done?

So I think thinking of creative ways where it's like you're on your morning commute and you just have a thought, how could I support my colleague better?

How can I support my boss better?

Those can be little things that can go a long way.

And I do feel I like mixed about the taking on extra work and what's fair and what's right and, and all of that.

I think it comes down to what's really important to you.

And if you do want to, you know, if you, if you're wanting to accelerate your career, then maybe that's going to work for you to take those things on.

Maybe you've got kids, totally fine and it's going to be other creative ways that you're going to show initiative instead.

Yeah.

And I think to that point, if you're taking those small pieces of initiative that could be part of your six to nine month plan in trying to seek a promotion as well.

And generally you start doing that when you become really comfortable in your job as well.

So I think that that's almost like a natural next step.

But maybe that's coming from my point of view only and not everybody's experience.

So I think that's worked for me potentially.

That's why I've got all these promotions so quickly for City.

Who knows?

I feel like I'm a corporate refugee.

Someone said when you leave, I don't know, I'm out of the corporate world.

I've been like, I'm gonna get my, I'm gonna promote myself to be a CEO, which I often feel slightly insecure about that I haven't given myself a self promotion to the CEO of our business, but here we are.

So look, I think this has just been our perspective, what's worked for us, what we've seen work for other people.

The main point here is these are some of our favorite ways to apply for a promotion.

Put yourself forward for one.

We hope it's helped you in getting the role that you want.

Let us know.

Send us a dm.

We always love to hear from you on has this worked?

Maybe it hasn't.

Maybe you've got a better idea.

We'd love to hear it and share it with the whole Promoted Podcast community.

Any final thoughts, Renee before we wrap?

No.

Another great discussion and as always, please subscribe to our podcast.

We're trying to get as much incredible juicy content out to you as possible, so need to know who you are and how many people are actually listening.

So thank you for joining us today.

It's always a pleasure to share our experience with you to help you get promoted and be great when you get there.

Thanks Renee.

I'm so stoked to see the listeners growing as well, so keep them coming.

Please keep sharing this with your friends.

Loving seeing them grow every single month and can't wait to do more of this Q and A.

Thanks so much everyone.

Thank you.

Bye.