00:00:08 Sana: Welcome back, listeners to another very interesting episode on the podcast where we dig into the messy, the real side, the raw side of building businesses, building communities, and also lives that actually mean something. I'm always here. And today for this episode, we are talking about something that that kind of something. You know, it honestly makes me a little tired just thinking about getting strangers to listen to each other. I believe this is something that we are lacking today. We are lacking the patience of listening. And my father used to tell me in my childhood that always be a good listener, like, you know, actually listen, not just wait for your turn to talk. And especially when there is a disagreement about stuff that matters and listeners, look, I'll be very, very upfront here about my guest, about David, his pitch. I was like, really? Like, you set up art in national parks and people just start having productive conversations with people they would normally avoid. I think that either sounds. impossible. Or maybe difficult. Or you have discovered something the rest of us are missing. So, listeners, let me tell you a bit about my guest to share a bit about my guest with all of you. So, listeners, meet David Deaton. He's an artist. He travels a lot. He's a dad. And for the past six years, he has been doing this thing where he basically asks strangers in public to talk to their political opponents. Yep. Political opponents. And apparently it's not ending in fist fights, which already makes it more successful than most family dinners. So with that, David, welcome to this blend. And thank you so much, because I'm damn sure this is going to be such an interesting conversation.

00:02:21 David Deighton: Thank you sir. It's a pleasure to be here. I love your introduction and I love what your father said.

00:02:27 Sana: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. It's it's a I didn't find the relevance at that time, but now I absolutely. I see that there is a huge scarcity in there. People are ready to talk. People are ready to interrupt. And I really sometimes find it very irritating. And that's why, you know, my father and he he tells me now also, in fact, he criticizes me a lot because he says that I don't listen. Uh, and, you know, and you know what? Uh, especially in the political discussions, like, it kind of becomes, um, this huge, like, discourse in there. But then, you know, at the end of the conversation, it's like, okay, we may have different opinions here, but let's have a very respectful, um, you know, very compassionate debate or discussion about a particular topic that we are going to talk about. I think that is something which can be called a productive discussion or argument. So with that, let's let's begin here our um, conversation. Let's let's first start with the origin here. Um, so walk me through what you know, this entire actually looks like the setup, like how you get strangers to talk about topics, you know, on which they would rather disagree with each other. I mean, with each other because we we we are seeing trolls. We are seeing, you know, sometimes the comment sections, they can go like blasting abusers, hurling abuses, um, sometimes very, very negative, you know, wishful thinking. How how exactly is that possible?

00:04:18 David Deighton: Right. So, uh, I'm coming from a space, um. of great political divide. I'm. I'm French, but I live in the United States. Um, the rise of polarization and, uh, our dependence on online digital platforms. For our information, um, and, um, I wanted to explore, uh, using the tools that I know, which is, uh, they're artistic tools, um, how how people communicate about a taboo subject, um, that where people get upset and angry and as you mentioned, uh, fistfights, hopefully not in a family together. And I would not be ideal, but things get heated up. Uh, we're very attached to our, uh, points of view. And, uh, when we know that other people's, uh, uh, facts and opinions are false, uh, we want to correct them and to make things right. Um, and that in the circumstance here in the United States, as everybody knows, we have, um, uh, increasing increasing conflict and it's very well documented and shown, um, uh, online, uh, on our screens and sometimes in person. And so for that, we people avoid, uh, speaking altogether about certain subjects. And, um, as an artist, for me, all the subjects we don't want to talk about are the very subjects I want to address. Um, because artistic expression comes from, uh, the, these elements of exploration. And if we start shutting down, um, in our subjects. Well, as I think someday we might also put art also in that same category. Uh, so that's that's my origin if you want, um, and to explore that. Well, I did what everybody, everybody would do. I experimented And, um. And by starting conversations with strangers, uh, and using the using politics as my, as my subject. And we certainly did have arguments and it did not go down. Well, uh, at the beginning, uh, people got upset when I expressed my opinion. And why would they talk to me anyway? And who was I and blah, blah blah. And so I had to redirect it in and explore different, um, different methods in order to be able to have that conversation where sometimes they just break down at the very onset. Um, people with the same opinion would be very glad to speak to one another and complain about the other side. And, uh, but across the divide, across, uh, speaking to a political opponent can be seemed to lead immediately to confrontation. So, um, I asked the help of a, uh, linguist, uh, and, uh, communication professor to help me, um, readdress my questions for them to be non-confrontational. And, uh, in the last six years, those are the those are the questions I use. I always use the same three questions. Uh, and I'll, I'll share them right away with, with you and your audience, because you can very much change the country that, uh, is listed in the, in my questions to whatever country you're in and the questions that, you know, I ask people are, you know, how would you describe the political system of the United States of America changed that to India or France or whatever you want? And after asking that question, I'm going to hear somebody answer, uh, they're already willing to talk to me, uh, and to answer this question. And I'm giving them the opportunity to, to to tell someone what their opinion is. And all I do is listen, uh, actively listening, uh, not preparing myself, uh, to what my, uh, my response is going to be or, uh, And capturing onto certain words that upset me or triggered me. In particular, we get triggered by things we disagree with. Um, and, uh, finding methods of letting that go. And, uh, and the second question is, uh, how would you describe your feelings or reactions to the current state of US politics? So the person keeps on going explaining things how, uh, uh, you know, how they feel and react to things. And, um, and in the process of me just actively listening in, the person is, um, is defining their, their point of view in, uh, in a more of an emotional level and, uh, and that, that I'm, I'm going to tell right away. That's where I'm aiming at is what's the emotional, uh, response to these questions? That's what I'm saying. That's that's where I'm going. But the person who's just saying what they have to say and have hundreds and hundreds of recordings of of, uh, of people's Those responses. And the third question I asked him is, um, you know, kind of a game where you finish the sentence, uh, politics in the United States, blank silence, and then the person fills in, fills in the, uh, the question and after what, on average takes two minutes and thirty seven seconds, I have my my responses. And all I did during that time is listen. So, you know, this could be with a parent, a friend or a stranger or somebody that has, uh, a different political view than yours from work or something. Is that asking these questions and just listening? And why would I give that opportunity is because. We don't have that anymore. We we go online and we and that's where we have our, uh, we respond to, to memes and videos and comments. Uh, you know, with the. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And then we feel we can say anything we want. Right. So that we can like, you know, we feel free to express ourselves and be angry. And we have the veil, uh, the curtain, the protection of the online world, uh, being anonymous to be able to say whatever we want to that other person. That might just be a bot, actually, if I'm actually being a real person, but we feel we're having something and and that expression is, uh, you know, often geared towards, uh, towards anger and outrage, uh, and, uh, of course, online devices, they thrive on that, uh, to keep our attention on there. But while we do it in person, there's many more filters. There's the personal individual filters of our communication, especially with a stranger. There's an element of civility, especially if the other person, all they did was listen to you. So you, you know, why would you get upset with somebody that just listens to you and try to remain neutral. You know, uh, you can nod your head or whatever. Um, um, but, uh, you know, some of what I found is that I've since then, I've never had a confrontation ever since. Um, so that, you know, that leads to the question was like, why? Why do this? You know, why. Just give people a platform and, uh, and take maybe the abuse of hearing things that upset you from somebody else. And, uh, and that's what I'm interested in is, is that space of giving people the opportunity to say what they have to say and then be able to tell them something along the lines of, I disagree with everything you had to say, except for one thing. And that thing is, most often I focus not on a fact or opinion, but on emotion. So if they were angry, upset, confused, and I happened to be one of those as well about the state of affairs in my country, I will express that and show that we have a certain commonality and that puts people off, right? Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah. And maybe at that point, if, uh, if the person is aware enough of the situation, they'll, they'll ask you, they'll ask you the same questions. What do you feel about those questions? And then you have a dialogue as simple as that. Um, but you have to set the tone. You have to be in the right place. Like you with your father. Uh, you know, you might be sat down at a table or, you know, you know, each other, uh, and, and, uh, and usually the space is a good one. Uh, and, and those that listening space can happen. However, since it's an emotional one, it's your it's your father, it's your parent. And, you know, there's relations of dominance and and also of love for the other and not being heard as a child is more difficult. It can be more difficult than actually speaking to a stranger. So I use the opportunity. Um, I was speaking to strangers as an example for people to start practicing with strangers before they practice for their loved ones. Because we cherish the people we love, we don't want to get in the space of having an argument. So we avoid the political questions, but we can have it if, uh, if, you know, with a bit of practice. And for some people it might be natural to do so. For me, it wasn't my, uh, initial experiments for where we're confrontational in nature. I had a message I wanted to put out, and, um, and I didn't, uh, want to listen to what other people had to say. So asking questions was kind of useless. Um, if you're not ready to listen to what that person's saying, if it's just to put what you have to say, and then you're obviously getting ready for some form of conflict, a conflict, and that that applies to anything. Um, I do it artistically, but you can use it in your at work, uh, in your religious practice, uh, just being present, you know, and, and listening to another is, is, is transformational and, and, uh, and it was just an act of kindness we can do to others. And at the same time, I find it to be a political act that a political action, we can exercise it at many times during the week, whenever, whenever it arises, you know. Yeah. But yeah, the, the thing that I'm just going to go, I'm not even listening right now. I'm just talking. Am I just like, the thing is, it brings me to, you know, um, how do you have a conversation with a stranger? So I, I go to national parks, like you mentioned. Uh, they're they're neutral areas where people are relaxed because they're they're in nature. And I go to iconic locations that people of many different political persuasions are going to visit, and many visitors from abroad visit as well. So I don't just ask my questions to Americans and, um, and uh, the the point in all this is creating a, a story, an event, um, where story oriented, oriented people. So, um, we can always mention a story to people like, oh, I heard a conversation between David and Sana on a podcast, and they were talking about this. I, you know, and that's the story, right? What we're doing right now, um, and people can share that and say, you know, and you know, what it was about? It was about talking about politics, not confrontationally. That's an excuse. Like my art installations are an excuse. This podcast is like an artistic, uh, piece as well. And, uh, where we're, uh, we're offering a story. Uh, somebody talks about, uh, something talks about politics or. Oh, I don't talk about politics right there. That's an interesting story. Why don't you talk about why not talk about politics? And people say because of confrontation, and then you can say, well, how about trying these three non-confrontational political questions? Uh, they're just examples. You can just use one or create your own. Um, but there are good. I couldn't find my own questions because they always had an element of, uh, of something that might upset people on the other side, um, using certain words. There's words that upset certain people, um, that you think are fine. I mean.

00:16:40 Sana: Um, if I can add on to. Many points here, but one thing, which I don't know because I'm not, um, very much like, um, I'm well versed on the US politics, but I do keep a tab on international politics. Like, um, you know, but one thing which I can say for sure is. We saw a time when. And this is, uh, what? You know, when print media, um, mainstream media, not the social media or the YouTubes of today, but print media and, um, you know, just normal. There were conversations, there were discussions, there were debates which were raw, like, you know, people didn't have that here. At least. You know, if we look at the celebrity interviews, even celebrities in my country, if I can take a reference of my country as well. There were times when celebrities used to have just raw, unabashed, unfiltered take on not only politics, but the way probably could. Could be related to the industry or the movie industry, or maybe some some other different topics. But at least there was an unfiltered discussion on different topics, including politics as well. But right now I think there is some sense of fear or maybe some sense of, you know, that censorship or the feeling that, you know, if I go against what what is allowed right now or what is the current popular narrative, I may have to bear the brunt, or maybe there can be some collateral damage as well. So I think at least having those questions or those discussions, which are not so much of confrontational. They can be icebreakers here. At least they can provide some respite because I still I still talk to, uh, many people who are in my age bracket. Um, I come from the millennial generation. So in my age bracket, who are still very much actively having discussions, and they can be I mean, one person can be, let's say pro government, one person can be, uh, completely against the incumbent or maybe completely against the narrative. And they both of them may have their own credible reasons, but at least they are having a healthy discussion. They're having their own set of arguments or having their own set of reasons, and maybe some some. If the one person has very stupid reasons to agree, then the other person may, you know, kind of act as a act as a well-wisher. Okay? Your reasons are stupid, I know, but they are stupid. So let me help you with that. Why are they stupid? So yeah, these questions can be good icebreakers.

00:19:58 David Deighton: I see that it seems like you have very. These are healthy conversations. You're, uh. You're you're you're referencing. I, I, I, I see a breakdown, um, where these conversations are not even taking place. Um, yeah. Or at least we're spending more time, uh, expressing ourselves. And I say that in quotation marks, expressing ourselves, because usually we're we're consuming, uh, uh, more than we are producing. Yeah. Uh, when we're online, we spend more time online than we do offline talking to real life people. And, uh, and, um, and some of us are have not have, um, um, have not practiced, uh, talking in, in person to people About sensitive subjects and others, uh, have never really had the opportunity. And, uh, I find that the most distressing when I, when I have conversations with people that that have never had the opportunity to say so they have they have an opinion, they say it and then sometimes they cry. They cry. Um, I was on a podcast and, uh, the host actually had nothing to do with politics, but she had me on it, and, uh, and she cried as well, because there was all this pinned up stuff inside of things she wanted to express. So she never was able to get out, uh, face to face. Uh, of course, on podcasts we were looking at one another. But, uh, you know, that other occasions people, uh, in person and, uh, they, they haven't had the opportunity to, to say these things and that that's alarming. That's very strange, isn't it? Uh, I mean, of course it can happen. Um, but we shouldn't be in a situation where, um, those, uh, where we're not we're all political animals. So we should be able to talk freely about politics in order to be part of our democratic systems and, um, and make it a more safe and, uh, and, uh, and, and a more solid foundation for, for us to base our institutions on, uh, when we're no longer able to talk about these things. It's a great opportunity to, to seize power to, to, uh, you know, to, uh, to to move the narrative away, uh, to whatever you want it to be, uh, uh, and have a population no longer vote because they no longer believe in the system. Um, and there's a lot of discontent. I want to avoid that for the sake of my kid. Um, and for the next generations as much as possible. And the only way I can see it is by us having those conversations you're describing, where we can discuss things freely, uh, with, uh, with different opinions. Uh, although, honestly, we often don't change the way another person thinks. I mean, uh, they they get their information, uh, where they want. And it's often not from, uh, by, uh, sharing political facts and opinions with somebody else. It's usually in a story, you know, still back to the story. Uh, if it's about, uh, healthcare, it's about the personal story of somebody that was sick or what they went through, uh, here, it's about insurance or whatever. It's it's these stories that that people take away. So, um, that's that's that's where, um, that's where there's an opportunity, uh, by either sharing stories if you're invited to do so, because there's nothing more annoying than listening to somebody's story that you, you're not interested in and you didn't ask for it. Um, and, uh. Yeah. And also by, uh, creating new stories, uh, by, by new interactions. Uh, and so that, that that's where I'm going with it. Um, you know, it's a, it's a pretty bleak landscape. Uh, in, in the United States, if you were to just solely look at, uh, media sources, however, the real conversations I'm having with people, they're usually ones of hope. They're ready for exchange. Uh, they're they're not, um, there's very few people that are, um, so tied to, uh, tied to their to their perception of the world that they're unwilling to to share it. And, uh, most people want to talk about themselves anyway. It's their favorite story. It's their favorite subject. Let them get it out there. And that's the same in, in in business and in life. Right. You can ask some things about the other. Try to get to know a little bit about them, what they have to say. There's always something interesting there and trying to get to hear some stories.

00:24:47 Sana: I think I think it has kind of gotten reduced to just having interesting bios on your profiles. That's what I.

00:24:56 David Deighton: Found. Bios.

00:24:57 Sana: Bios, Instagram, LinkedIn bios. That's it. Like, you get those some cool flashy words and hashtags and write it there and that's it.

00:25:08 David Deighton: Yeah, right. So yeah, like a LinkedIn profile. Are they AI generated? I mean, what seems to be the real ones these days? You know, putting a story in there could be kind of interesting. I don't know if it's if it's effective on, on a, on a platform like that. I wonder if the story is better received when it's, um, when it's being seen by the other person. So you are saying it, but, um, using all your senses, uh, not just the visual and acoustic, um, but also I was going to say vibratory. But, you know, it's also the the sense of touch and smell and taste. Um, of course you're not going to taste somebody, but, um, this is, it brings me to another thing. Like when I get triggered, you know, when we get triggered, there's mechanisms. I always wonder if something that triggers me, that makes me upset. I imagine what that tastes like. And that's a very strange thing. But it takes you aside to another. Another space. And I think, oh, that, that that's that's strange. It tastes like a rotten apple, you know, or uh, or. Yeah. Or, uh, something that, you know, that that's gone off and uh, and I think of that and I've taken myself away from the trigger, and I can immediately get back to the conversation by thinking the other senses. I think that's an important part of active listening, is applying all your senses, or at least imagining what that would be, especially in the senses we use less of, uh, which are taste, smell. Uh, you going into those? We seem to forget them, especially in this digital age, which is all about, uh, you know, sound and visual. Um, exploring those can be a really powerful tool to kind of break up what you're what you're hearing to get back into where you should be, which is there with the other person to hear what's going on and, uh, and be, um, and be present. Right. So that's the that's what I do with my artwork. That's where it's taken me over the years. It's still evolving. I don't know where it's going to take me to next. Um, and, uh, right now I, I explore how to use, uh, different art installations that make people think about those things, uh, not just the questions, but also echo chambers and your point of view. Do we even have one? All these things and, uh. And people enjoy just exploring and thinking about what those things may be or what the nature of those things can be. And those create, again, stories that they can bring and, uh, and share with others. You know, I saw something really strange today.

00:27:57 Sana: And I think art is, uh, is a very beautiful medium or channel, uh, because it has been for. The entire history in there. I mean, if we see if I talk about my country's, um, freedom movement, art has been such an instrumental, uh, way to express whether you take example of paintings or literature or music or dance. I mean, it has been such an instrumental and a beautiful because, as you mentioned, it involves all the senses in there. You know, like we talk about reading the room or getting the energy in there, maybe a certain dip in the pitch or, um, maybe in the way, uh, the person who is listening to me, how their body language is. All these kind of observations, they kind of help us to get into the present moment. Not that, you know I'm talking to you. We are having a conversation, but my focus is on my phone. The ding, the dongs, the notifications, what I'm getting called. Excuse me. Let me take this call. I'll. I'll come back. It's it's a it's a huge um, I mean, I really, really I personally get very annoyed because when you are having a conversation, people can, you know, realize that whether the person who is talking to me or listening to me, whether they are deeply invested into that conversation or not. And that is something, um, I don't know, in intentionally or unintentionally, maybe because of the entire digital thing, maybe we are kind of moving away from it. But then, yes, I'm also seeing so many people through different channels and, and media, different altering media that they're trying to at least take action, take the first step, take that effort. And one thing which I also I was, I was going through, uh, I was watching another podcast on YouTube, um, on an Indian YouTube channel about how, you know, whenever we talk about politics, it's kind of assumed that it has to be like extremes. Either you are right leaning or you are left leaning. But then where exactly is the middle part? You know, you may agree with someone who is, you know, with the ideals or the ideas and then the left side, but then you can also agree with some of the ideas, or maybe the way they're executing all those ideas on the right side, maybe somewhere, but at least I don't think that it has to be always on the extremes. And like internally, my inner voice absolutely agreed with that point. Yes, it's not always that you have to take the extremes in there, and I think that particular nuance is somewhat missing right now in all, especially the political conversations, the discussions that we are having.

00:31:23 David Deighton: Hmm. Yeah. You know, When I we can see extremes because we always think of ourselves as the center right.

00:31:35 Speaker 5: The main character energy.

00:31:36 David Deighton: Right. We're the main character at all. Yeah. Um, but when we look and, um, and we concentrate on the commonality or the, the oneness of all, um, and, uh, to take it all in, um, the, the, the extremes. Okay. There are extreme point of views, especially when you think of yourself as the center. Um, but then we can find the center in others. Um, but it's going to be once again on the emotion, the emotional level, rather than the facts and opinions. Um, and I don't see us, um, like I said earlier, being able to influence much, um, how one person's going to vote or what they're going to to choose as their sources of information, because we're all very heavily distracted with our our devices that online. That's where we're going to get our information. That's where we're going to make our decision. Uh, but we can, um, as an, as an artist, I like to come from the periphery and also to, uh, um, to kind of hijack the, the narrative, um, and, and, um, come from this, you know, come from another side, an unexpected side. And that's and that's where it lies. It's I find conversation is becoming a rarity, the one with actual dialogue. And, um, and if we exercise that, I see that as an artistic expression every time we do it. Almost. It's a performance, right? It's a sense of a performance. So you have to, you know, know your lines. You have to to be attentive of the situation. There's a certain amount of speed. It's almost like a theater play. Uh, it can be authentic. It's not to say that I know actors are inauthentic because they're acting a role. Uh, when we're when conversing with somebody, we're playing that role. We're playing the role of, uh, of of of a conversationalist, of, uh, of being in dialogue with another, uh, we may not see it that way, but it's, you know, life can be a very, very big performance of many different roles. Uh, you know, when we're at work or another, when we're a family person, we're another, um, and then we recharge in, in our unconsciousness while we're sleeping, and then we recharge with new ideas. It's very rich. I see the our entire existence as an artistic expression. As long as we act with intent. It's, uh, that's that's the thing. When we are intentionally living, living present in the moment, that space is an artistic expression. So to me, um, not only are all of our actions with intent are are artistic, but they're also political as well. As we don't live isolated from the other, none of us are isolated, even for the unfortunate. In a cell locked away from all, there are the the people that put that person there the, the, the judges, the victims, all of that. They're all still part of the whole mechanism of of how these things work. So there's no separating, uh, the, our lives from either politics or the art that that is there. So, uh, let's make it some more, you know, let's put some more poetry into it, uh, and, uh, and take a moment, take a moment back to, uh, to be there and that that's where I'm going. I.

00:35:15 Sana: I it makes a lot of sense, especially, Uh, and I don't know whether this particular observation will bear some, um, or have some relevance, um, in the context of the point that you made or something that you are envisioning to achieve here. Um, but especially for younger generations. I in my time, like, um, I used to think that, you know, especially politics doesn't have any relevance in my life. I don't have any connection with it. I don't care who is running my country or what is happening at a global level. But then with the years going by, I realize that it is such an innate part of our lives. You know, some people would think, okay, let me be a political, it doesn't matter to me. But then consciously or unconsciously, it is a huge part of your life. And right now what we are seeing everything happening like so much volatility and so much, um, every day the dynamics are changing, whether it's geopolitical, whether it's economic, whether it's individual personalities. Um, I mean, it's high time that, you know, as the younger generations, we give value to our histories, our origins. And because it's a very important part of the entire humanity, the entire existence of humanity, because it has its own repercussions on all the aspects, whether it's the environment or the climate or the entire planet Earth on our individual lives. It is not just right now, only restricted to our individual choices or preferences. I think it has its collective effect on the entire planet. And I think that is why I think your the point that you made is very, very it's more relevant for especially the younger generations.

00:37:32 David Deighton: I can appreciate I can appreciate that. Um, I would like to think so. The there's a bombardment of so many things that are happening. It's hard to to be aware of all subjects. Um, and it's being used like our climate crisis to political polarization to do I do I matter, how do I matter all these things. That's heavy. You know, it's heavy to take that all on. Um, but, um, knowing that at any moment, whenever the opportunity arises, you can have a conversation, especially with somebody that is very different from you. That right there is a is a power, a powerful political, a political action beyond even that, you know, before you're eighteen, before you can vote, um, is something that somebody can practice. And it's also great in business. It's great in business to be able to know how to talk to somebody, to listen in to you, really what they have to say then to pitch your own, you know, then to to pitch your own, uh, business or whatever, it's to hear what the other person has to say and find out something about them. This type of communications go a very long way and have, uh, um, yeah, this is something to to consider. Um, it's a good practice. And, um, and unfortunately, I find that it's one that we're either losing or we don't practice enough because of the balance of how much time we spend in our digital devices. Um, when we're, uh, working with the digital device. With intent. Right. So I'm going to a podcast because I want to listen in, and I want to hear that and get new ideas. That's one thing. But when I'm on YouTube, just, uh, flicking through whatever the algorithm decides to give me to distract me and entertain me. Uh, well. Good luck. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know where to go from that.

00:39:47 Speaker 5: That's true. That's right.

00:39:49 David Deighton: Um. Uh, yeah. That that's that's my that's my that's my give.

00:39:56 Sana: Yeah. Yeah. And I think more than choice, I would say it's, it's in our agency because it gives us that power and control in here. So it's high time that we take back our agency. And let's not let's not let the devices or the algorithms dictate the way we lead our lives, or we shape our thoughts or we shape our future.

00:40:24 David Deighton: Hmm. That's right, that's right. Yes. This is this is something that, um, we have control over. And that's extremely powerful that we can practice. You know, I love that, uh, that your word agency very much in agreement with that. Yes, we we need that. We should not feel disempowered. We have power. It's right here. It's just, uh, it's nobody's giving it the value it deserves. So we don't give it much credit. But here it is, right? Ready to be used, and we can use it. And if each one of us to use it, we're a real power to be reckoned with, you know, as a community, um, as a group of people, as communicators. I mean, wow, imagine what that looks like, especially in the time when everybody's, uh, when when the system is trying to pull us away from talking to one another and just consuming more and more of of of not just plastic goods, but also of, of information that we don't really need. But it's very entertaining. Yeah. Mm. Yeah. Let's be more the actor and be part of the play. That's, uh, that we're part of. And not just spectators. Yes. That's what I like to think of. Yeah, absolutely.

00:41:47 Sana: I think we are concluding this conversation on a very hopeful note here. So, um, of course, David, uh, before we wrap up, I'm very sure and I'm very much hopeful that this conversation has definitely piqued our listeners interest. To explore more about the work that you are doing. Um, so if they would like to explore further, if they would like to be a part of this, how they can reach out to you.

00:42:17 David Deighton: Well, uh, replay this episode, share this episode with other people, share your program with others. Um, but if they wish to be entertained yet some more, they. I'm going to send people to to a social media device. I'm going to send them to YouTube and they can watch, um, listen to people answer those questions we talked about at the beginning of the episode, uh, see what type of, uh, art installations I use and, uh, and how how it's entertaining, I must admit, um, and see what I'm doing. And, and they can find that at triptych dialogue, um, by typing that into YouTube and triptych is t r I p y c h. Dialogue d I a l o g u e. Put those two words in. You should find me and, uh, give it a go. But mostly I would say go out there, talk to others, engage with the stranger and give it some practice, and then go to the people that you're no longer speaking to. Right. That were used to be close to you. But now you're so upset about certain things, about what they said. You can you can try to engage them again. In my work, am I not? But it's worth a try. And, uh, it's going to be painful, but you're the one that's going to be able to do it. Uh, because it might not. It's probably not going to come from the other end. Uh, if if you're only so lucky. Yes. Thank you so much, Senator, for having me on. It was a real pleasure. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to share this.

00:43:59 Sana: Absolute. Absolute. It's my pleasure. It's my honor, David, that, um, in in any capacity or in any way, I get to be a part of this, um, I should say movement of change. And, uh, to make that easier for all of you listeners, I'll have all the links, the details in the show notes. Um, uh, that's a very, very interesting word playing there, David. Triptych dialogue. I really love that.

00:44:30 David Deighton: So there's a whole other story there?

00:44:35 Speaker 5: Yes.

00:44:37 Sana: I wish we could have more time, but but yeah, um, we'll definitely explore that in our other podcasts listeners, but so stay tuned with us. Stay with us in here. But also let's, let's do like a, uh, an outro here because, um, I have to thank you, David. I'm not going to lie. Um, before I started this conversation, I have. I had no idea. Um, you know, we we were talking about, um, whether it's going to be a complete, you know, the traditional podcasts that we see, um, questions, answers, discussion. Okay, let's do this. Let's do that, and that's it. But then I think it was such, such an organic and very, um, kind of a, you know, like a normal discussion, normal chat, I think. Um, uh, that exactly is, is needed, that authenticity, that rawness here, um, that you get to share what exactly you are thinking or you're feeling. There is no judgment, there is no triggering moment here, but just mutually respectful discussion, even if both the persons are not agreeing on that matter. So thank you so much for what you are doing. And, uh, I really hope that this goes a long way. Um, so. Yeah. Thank you.

00:46:07 David Deighton: Thank you. Thank you so much, Sarah. Take care. Take care to you all.

00:46:13 Sana: And to all, all my listeners. Um, okay. Maybe one thing we can try. Maybe this week have one conversation where you genuinely try to understand instead of winning, not agreeing. Just understand. Have that openness. Go with clarity and see what happens. See? Maybe you can journal it. You can write it down. See if you can actually do it because it's harder than it sounds. And thank you to everyone for giving your valuable time to listen to this episode on this blend. Until next time, I'm your host, Sana, and I'll catch you in the next episode. Thank you.