Matt Edmundson: So welcome back to the
e commerce podcast with me, your host,
Matt Edmundson.
This is a show all about helping
you deliver eCommerce Wow.
And to do that.
I am chatting to the wonderful chap
called Jay Neyer from Lantern Sol.
We are going to be getting into what it
looks like to grow your brand from six
figures to seven figures to eight
figures and beyond.
From the man who has been there, done
it, read the book, seen the film, got
the t shirt and all of that good stuff.
So grab your notebooks, grab your
pens because you're going to want to get
into all of this.
But before we do.
Let me just take a few moments
just to say if you haven't done so
already, make sure you go over to the
website, sign up for the newsletter,
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net, uh, and we'll be sending
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It's all getting revamped at
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It's going to be so much better than
it was and it was pretty cool before,
but it's going to be so much better.
Uh, so those changes at the time of
recording probably were about two weeks
off, I think, so.
Let me tell you, that means by
the time this has come out, it's
been working for a little while.
So go over to the website, e
commerce podcast.
net, sign up to the newsletter.
We only send out one email a week.
It's pretty cool, pretty tame, uh, and
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Uh, and so yeah, go do that.
Also come follow me on Instagram,
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What's the other one?
LinkedIn.
That's what I'm using a lot of,
uh, come find me on LinkedIn.
Would love to meet you there.
Matt Edmundson, uh, come say, how's it?
Uh, we get to meet a lot of e commerce's
on LinkedIn.
A lot of, a lot of listeners,
which is great.
And you tell me the stories and, uh, and
I love to hear them.
So yeah, do come do that.
Anyway, enough about that.
Let's talk about Jay, a modern
Renaissance man.
It says here in my notes, which I
think is fantastic.
A philosopher, a musician, a
multilingual mastermind beyond
his creative pursuits.
He's a powerhouse in e commerce has
generated over a hundred million
in sales and developed over 500
websites and apps.
He's a featured speaker for Shopify
and Amazon and Jay blends big
picture thinking.
With technical expertise to turn
six figure brands into eight figure
success stories, which coincidentally
is why we have him on the show.
Yes, it is.
So, uh, Jay, welcome to the show, man.
Uh, great to have you all the way from
Cincinnati, which I believe is in Ohio.
If my American geography serves me.
Yeah, it's great to have you.
Yeah, it's good to have you.
It's good.
Are you a Cincinnati Reds fan?
That's what I know about Cincinnati.
There's a baseball team.
Jay Neyer: Yeah, for the sports
scene, you know, we don't have a
lot of accolades.
Um, I also travel a fair amount.
So, Cincinnati's home base, but I
bounce around all over the world.
Uh, fortunately, my work I can just
do from a laptop.
So, whether it be in Brazil, or Colombia,
or somewhere in Europe, I'm, I'm
most often not traveling, so I've
lost track of their games and scheduling
over the years.
I, I frankly, uh, prefer to put my
time and attention to other things
outside of sports, but I, I root for
them just for the sake of my friends
and family wanting to be happy.
Indirectly.
You could say I'm a fan.
Matt Edmundson: Indirectly.
A fair play.
I, I appreciate that.
I, I remember when I was a kid,
and I appreciate this is going
back a long time.
Uh, but when I was a kid, my dad,
uh, traveled to the States with,
for business for the first time.
And it was a big deal.
You know, this was sort of in the
early eighties.
This was a big deal when your dad
sort of traveled to the States and
he ended up going to Cincinnati and
he bought me back this t shirt, the
Cincinnati t shirt, which I think is
still in my mum's attic, if I'm
going to be honest.
Uh, and he bought me back a Cincinnati
Reds cap, um, and he said, you have
to support the Cincinnati Reds
baseball team.
And I'm like, well, sure, why not?
I don't know anything about
baseball.
We didn't have the internet back then.
I was never going to see the game.
Um, And then that's the last time I
thought about it until I've just
spoken to you now.
So
Jay Neyer: yeah, well fun fact for
you, Cincinnati Reds, they were
the very first professional
baseball team in the U.
S.
Matt Edmundson: Ah, okay.
Jay Neyer: Yeah.
Well, there you
Matt Edmundson: go.
Jay Neyer: Some trivia, some useless
trivia knowledge you'll never need,
but now you know.
Matt Edmundson: Well, you never
know, it might come up in a pub quiz.
Um, you know, those, those kind
of questions come up all the time, don't
they, in, in pub quizzes, which is,
uh, it's wonderful to have it.
I'll have forgotten it by
the time we finish recording, though.
But, uh, at least I know it now.
Ha, ha, ha, ha.
Well, listen, let's jump into
it because I, I loving your bio.
You know, you've done a lot of work.
You've had your own e-commerce store,
which you, you mentioned before
we hit the record button, which
you built, sold, and uh, and, and
got out of there.
You, you now help other companies with
their own eCommerce stores and, and
helped them scale.
Uh, and so I'm intrigued 'cause
your story is a little bit similar
to mine in the sense we both
built quite big online businesses
and sold them.
Uh, and so it's like, it's like
looking into a mirror, uh, J is,
is, is what it is.
Um, and so I'm kind of curious
about your story.
How did you, how did you get
into e commerce?
Jay Neyer: Yeah.
So in school, back in university, I
was doing a double major in philosophy
and accounting, and I figured if I just
picked the two most opposite things,
I'll find something in the middle.
And, uh, it, it, it worked
out pretty well.
I, uh, I started doing accounting
internships and I was just bored
out of my mind.
I was sitting behind a cubicle, just
hating my life, hating my job,
hating my outfit that I had to
put on every day, really not liking
where I was at.
And I remember very vividly one
day driving home after, um, there
was like a pub crawl or something like
that after work.
And I just, I felt like I was
just surrounded by the most.
Uninspiring people you could imagine
just having the most boring
conversations.
And I remember just crying on
my way home.
Like, how is this my life?
Like, how did, how did this, how
did this happen?
Like, where did I, where
did I go wrong?
And so shortly after that, I decided
I'm going to start reading about famous
entrepreneurs, try to make something
of my life.
And it seemed like technology was
a common theme.
And so I figured I'm going to
learn how to code.
How do I do that?
I'm going to start building a
website and I'll start building
it for myself.
Uh, so I started off making a website,
making a blog, just screwing around,
really making a couple of websites
and then sharing it, publishing it out.
And then someone approached me and
said, Hey, my family business needs
a new website.
Can you build it for us?
We'll pay you a thousand bucks.
And my eyes just lit up cause that
was the first time someone had ever
offered me money for something like that.
And I just couldn't believe it, that
people pay for this.
And so that just sent me down this
whole path of building websites.
Later launched, uh, some e
commerce brands.
My first one was unsuccessful
and had a lot of lessons from that.
I can tap into, but the second one,
uh, really took off after lots of years
of perseverance and, um, we were
fortunately able to grow that to
eight figures.
Matt Edmundson: That's great, man.
That's great.
I do feel like we connected somehow.
I did accounting at uni, although
I did accounting and law, so they
were quite similar.
I left university and thought, I
never want to be an accountant, ever.
But it's been quite useful
knowledge to have.
Jay Neyer: Absolutely.
So
Matt Edmundson: I'm super grateful
for it, and I'm grateful for good
accountants, I really am, but
it was never going to be me.
Right.
I read the business books, got into
entrepreneurship and the reason I
got into e commerce was because somebody
came to me and said, can you
build me a website?
I'm like, sure.
And they said, do you know
how to do it?
I'm like, no, but how hard can it be?
Right.
And this was in 1998.
So, uh, here we are, however many years,
almost 30 years.
Geez, is it really that long?
And so I did fascinating,
uh, absolutely fascinating.
So you, you've, uh, you've built
businesses.
Some of.
not worked, but one obviously
clearly did work.
Um, and you've, you've learned
a lot from that.
So let's jump straight into it.
Cause I know, um, I know I'm fascinated
by your insights and stories in this.
So we've got a website.
Um, in fact, I was talking to a couple
today, their company turns over a half
a million a year.
Um, they, they, Um, sell
products online.
They got an econ business sells half
a million on year.
We're looking about do we do an
equity partnership with them?
Um, how do I grow that brand from
its six figures up to eight
figures and more?
Let's jump straight into it.
What's your first thing that we
should think about?
Jay Neyer: Yeah.
First, I just like to look at the
overall economics of the business.
What type of industry is it in?
Is it in a growing and
expanding market?
Is it in a contracting?
Um, it's very different strategies
when we have price points of items that
are, uh, called like 600 to 1000 bucks
versus it's more of a consumable product
where it's maybe 20, but you're trying to
just build out that that lifetime value.
So one of the very first things I
do is just look at the historical
standing of it.
Um, and just the total addressable
market size.
What does that look like?
Uh, after that, what I would look at is
how are its current revenue channels.
So how's it getting new customers
specifically?
Is that coming from referral, SEO,
paid ads, email?
What is their customer retention
look like?
Um, and then really typically the main
growth magnets are going to be
the paid ads, SEO front, uh, working
with influencers.
We can dive into some of
that in a bit.
Um, but if those economics are
positive, like I, what I often find
is many business owners just don't
know their numbers in terms of like,
what is, what is the max we can acquire
a customer against the AOB versus LTV.
Um, and if they really know those
numbers and it can help determine
just how aggressive you want to get
with scaling.
Um, we have some accounts where they
just have insane lifetime value from
a single customer and, you know,
we've been acquiring customers for say
that lifetime value is 250 and we're
acquiring customers for 18 and like, I'm
telling you, like turn up the gas,
put more fuel in people, just, you
know, apprehension.
So you'd be surprised, like, I
think just, I, I'm kind of numb to.
Uh, or I guess I just have less
emotional investment because oftentimes
this is like someone's precious
baby that they're trying to care for.
I'm like, Hey, I, I can't do anything
to potentially put in a position
of jeopardy.
And I totally get that.
But, um, the nice thing about my
perspective has just been from just, you
know, comes down to a spreadsheet at
the end of the day.
And if you know those numbers,
you can turn those knobs dial it up
and just get the whole machine, uh,
producing more.
Um, and then on the backend.
So I'd say that's typically like
more of the front end top, top.
piece of the funnel of the
growth engine, more middle funnel.
I'd start looking in terms of like
the, the website CRO, how's the
conversion rate?
Um, what is that, uh, bounce rates and
things like that.
Um, I would also be looking at their
email performance.
Generally, we look to have a benchmark
of email doing 25 percent of total
store revenue.
Matt Edmundson: So
Jay Neyer: in your case, if you
guys are doing.
Uh, half a million.
I'd be looking to see that email is
doing at least 25 percent of that.
If it's not, chances are, it's probably
under optimized.
Um, and yeah, just going through that
kind of complete audit and then
figure out what are, what's, what,
what pain points, where can we massage
friction out of the system to probably
get the most return on, um, time or
capital invested.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, that's
a long list.
I wish she's great.
Um, thank you.
I've been hearing, um,
Uh, the, the fray, maybe it's just me,
maybe I've just been out of the wrong,
the right circles for a little while.
But more recently I have heard people
talk about Tam than I have, maybe in
the last two months I've heard people
talk about that more than I have in
the last six years.
I don't, I don't know if this is
just me, uh, or whether this is
something that has come out of it, but
you mentioned that and I was kind of
curious as to why.
Jay Neyer: Uh, I find it
very relevant specifically if I'm
calculating like SEO or even paid
ads for that matter.
If like, I'm trying to just get a sense
how much global search, so if I'm
trying to capture.
Whatever percent of a specific
keyword or phrase that has a lot of
purchase intent.
I want to see how many people are
looking for that.
So like insurance in the U S is
one of the most competitive keywords
that's going to have way more
competition than Cincinnati plumber,
for example.
And so just getting a sense of how many
people are actually looking for the
specific service or product is going to
give you a sense of.
How much ceiling is there for really
scaling and growing?
Um, and it's, it's more so also just
see directional, uh, growth.
So I look for growing industries
or collapsing industries.
So like, Hey, newspapers, physical
print is probably not an industry I
want to be investing a lot in right
now, but maybe digital collectibles
or other things where I see
market expansion.
It's really easy to just, you know,
ride a wave that's carrying you forward
versus trying to row a canoe upstream.
Um, and, and that happens with
business owners that we consult with.
So, you know, we can quickly,
easily identify, is this a growing or
contracting market?
And when it's growing, it just
makes it a lot easier for us to
do our jobs and position them well
versus, Hey, we have a full team trying
to paddle a canoe upstream for you.
And we can probably make some
distance and some performance, but at
the end of the day, we're, we're still
rowing upstream.
And so there's only so far we
can get with that.
So I find that very helpful for just.
Getting sense of direction
Matt Edmundson: like it can be a
simple case of I like what you said
there, Jay, about just going to Google
and typing stuff in and seeing what
the search volume is on something
to give you some sort of idea.
I mean, obviously, you can research it
further and get more accurate figures
on the market size, but, um.
It's a, it's a, it doesn't have
to be massively complicated to
give you some kind of insight,
which I like
Jay Neyer: to give you more specifics.
We typically use like a trust
keyword, get a mapping of how
much search volume keyword difficulty
also using the Google ad planner.
So, I mean, honestly, just
between both those tools, you can get
enough information if you feed in like
a good list of.
of keywords or phrases that we
want to, those tools will summarize very
effectively for you.
How much monthly searches, even
if you're just doing that monthly
searches and keyword difficulty, um, you
can get a sense of like, where does
it make sense to direct my attention
and efforts.
Matt Edmundson: And do you find yourself
just predominantly looking at, say,
keyword searches in the States?
Um, or are you looking at all
the countries that you're selling in or
potentially selling in, I suppose?
Jay Neyer: Yeah, we know we look across
the board, majority of our clients
are U. S. based, but we have plenty
international.
We have some, you know,
throughout Europe.
Uh, I'm also really into
languages myself.
So, uh, the volume from those is also
pretty noteworthy.
So Spanish speaking markets, even in the
U. S. The Spanish speaking market is
pretty significant.
And I think Expected to be at least 50
percent by 2050 or I'm not sure
the exact year, but it's, uh,
it's an important demographic as well.
So, um, I would pay attention
to both of them.
Um, but it really just depends
on where you can service
your clients.
And sometimes you might have logistics
of like, Hey, we'd love to be able to
fulfill to people in the EU, but we
just don't have a warehouse there.
And for us to fulfill a single
unitary order, the economics of it just
don't make sense.
So, um, it can apply in both contexts.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, no,
fair enough.
And of course, if you don't have a
warehouse in Europe, give us a ring.
We've got one in the UK.
Anyway, um, do you, switching back to
what you mentioned a second ago about
you love languages.
It said here in your little research
that you're a polygot, which I
think is one of the best words around.
I just think it's just such a
great word, but you can, you can
obviously speak multiple languages.
How important is it for e
commerce sites?
So, for example, I'm a U. S. website,
um, obviously there is a lot of Spanish
speaking, and certainly in certain
parts of the U. S., like I was in Miami
a few, a few months ago, and actually I
was, I was surprised because I've not
been to Miami for a long time and
I was surprised how little English
was spoken and how much everything
was Spanish.
I don't know why, I just, it just
was what it was.
Um, how important is it then to
think about or look at, say,
multilingual sites?
Would you do an English version and
a Spanish version?
Um, or do you just focus on English
and think actually everybody can copy,
paste and put it into ChatGPT for
the translation?
Jay Neyer: It definitely starts
with English first.
It will make a difference of like
somewhere like Miami is probably gonna be
more, that's going to be more of the
case than somewhere like Minnesota,
for example.
Um, but in general it's like, Hey,
why would we not want to have
more keywords and potential volume?
Like, is there anything that
would impede this product from being
sold to someone who speaks and
feels more natively comfortable in a
different language?
Like very rarely is that the case.
So, uh, it's always going to be a value
add, I would say.
Is it going to be the most value add
compared to, uh, you know, your list
of 10 or 20 other things you could
be focusing on, you know, that could be
subject for debate.
Um, but I would say when in doubt,
like it's, it's, it's definitely
a value item in my experience and
can potentially also just help
unlock other different keywords
or phrases that.
Um, otherwise you wouldn't be able
to optimize around.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, it's an
interesting, it's quite
timely actually, because one of
our companies, which does sell
into continental Europe, um, we're
to, we're now looking at getting,
say, the labels of the product
translated into French, possibly
French, German.
Um, And seeing if that has an
impact on things.
Uh, and so this whole language and
translation and, um, understanding search
terms in German are going to be very
different to search terms in English.
Uh, but understanding what
they are is, uh, that's a skill
in its own right.
Right.
I mean, you've got to have a good
grasp of things going on there.
So you've, you've sort of, you've,
you've given your list, so you
take an overview.
You're looking at, you know, is
this growing, is this expanding?
So let's assume we're in an
expanding industry.
It's a growing market.
The company, the company that I
spoke to earlier, um, I won't mention
their name or their industry because if
they're listening, I've not got their
permission to share their story.
But, uh, you know, if I did, I would
quietly say, um, They are in, I would
say, a very fast growing market.
Um, but it's quite a, I say fast
growing market, I think it's
more of a very established market.
It's a very big, sort of,
niche space.
Um, they've stagnated for
two years.
They've not, sort of, grown,
uh, in any way.
Um, their profit isn't, they, so
they focused more on profitability
than new customer acquisition.
Um, which I thought was an
interesting choice.
Uh, so that's sort of them.
I don't know if you want to
throw anything else in there.
I appreciate the limited data.
Jay Neyer: Uh, so like roughly what
type of average order value
would you say
Matt Edmundson: about 30 U.
S. Dollars.
Jay Neyer: Okay.
And is this a consumable or
something you would have a repeat usage
or what would that LTV look like?
Matt Edmundson: Well, the in an
interesting question because they
didn't actually know what their
lifetime value was.
Um, of a customer.
So going back to your earlier point
of customers, not People not actually
knowing their data, which I find
intriguing because I'm like, well, this
has got to be one of the first questions
I'd like to know the answer to.
So they're looking at that.
Now I'm going to suggest their
lifetime value is probably
around 70 bucks.
And I think they, um, they have about
a 25 percent return customer rate.
So 25 percent of the customers come
back and buy for a second time.
Jay Neyer: Okay.
And then last question for the
sales that they are getting, um, do you
know, break down what channels are
this coming from?
Paid ads, search.
95
Matt Edmundson: percent is coming
from paid meta ads.
Jay Neyer: 95%.
Okay.
So not like Google that egg hasn't
cracked yet.
Matt Edmundson: No.
Well, yeah.
Jay Neyer: Step number one
is definitely the LTV piece.
And even if you want to, like, those are
pretty different numbers between
that 30 and 70.
Um, like that just highlights some of
the main differences between, um, Like
looking at it from the LTV versus the
AOV standpoint, because 30 is like,
you're, you're going to have,
you're going to have a tough time
regardless, just because of that
lower price point.
So I will also look to see what we could
do to raise that AOV to whether bundle
more items, increase the perceived value,
even if it's digital add ons or other
guides or whatever things to just
improve the overall value, because.
CPMs, even for like really good
accounts, I would say if we're a
20 is a pretty good benchmark.
So just the cost of advertising
for a thousand impressions, like
you're already going to be eating
into that 30, um, acquisition
pretty quickly.
And so it's kind of like, I'm guessing
probably why they haven't scaled
is because they have the top out
for the ad spend of what they're
willing to go relatively capped.
And honestly, based on those numbers,
I would say it's probably higher
at the 25 percent because if it's
30 average order, and we call it 70,
that means like 2.
1, 2. 1 or 2.
3, 2. 2 in that range, in terms of
orders per customer.
And I, I, they should ideally look
at that on like a, uh, a 60 or 90 day
interval, because sometimes where
LTV can screw you off, it's like.
It affects your cash flows a lot,
which I learned from when I was
previously having a business myself.
So you're paying for tomorrow's inventory
with funds today, um, and so you don't
want to be like in a negative cash,
cash cycle crunch.
If you're building on that LTV, but
that capital isn't coming in for
another, you know, if it's, if it's
six months or 12 months instead
of that, and that can get a little
bit more tougher to calculate.
But.
Um, I would say the retention
seems really big.
I would look to at least get 25,
even pushing up to 30 percent
on the email.
So making sure that they're really
retaining customers as best as they
can, since it seems like it's an item
that people come back and reproduce.
Um, the meta dependency, what I
would do, walk into meta in a second.
What I would do outside of meta
is look at SEO.
If they haven't done any specific
strategies, you'd be surprised at
how well that still works.
Um, and then Google ads as well, uh,
very oftentimes.
Without knowing the product, I would
say like, I'd be surprised if they
can't replicate some of those models
over to Google.
Um, but getting on the meta side,
cause that seems like where it's
ultimately working and I'm, I'm usually
a fan of going deeper in areas
versus trying to go wider, like
before you've really built out
a channel, I think for many businesses,
it's like, Hey, we don't need to
do more things.
We just need to do the, the handful
of things that we're doing just
exceptionally better.
And so of all the things I'd say,
probably going deeper on meta
would really help starting with those
economics would be step number one.
Um, what we've been doing for a
lot of brands that we've been able to
grow up to eight figures is, uh,
doing whitelisting with influencers.
So we're in this age of influencers now
where people just have a much better
relationship with an individual than
like a corporation or a logo.
And many of these businesses are
just going to have frankly, zero
brand recognition.
So.
Where we've had a lot of success
is, um, running these ads through
influencers accounts, and
these can be micro influencers.
We've had people with a thousand
followers, 2000 followers, and
have really great success.
And we've had, you know, notable,
famous people like Joe Rogan or
Gronk, uh, having ads as well.
And those are obviously like very
different calibers in terms of level
of influencer.
But even on the smaller end, we
continuously see that whenever brands
do this, they have better results.
And it's a win, win, win.
It's a win for the brand
because they're getting better
acquisition costs.
You know, their economics on the ad
model makes sense for the influencer.
It's a win for them because the.
The brand is essentially paying
to send traffic to their page.
So like for one of the influencers
I calculated, we had sent them over
18 million, uh, impressions from a
different accounts that they paid 0 on.
So obviously you can imagine a lot
of that converts into followers.
And then hopefully it's a win for the
consumer as well.
Assuming you have a product that people
want and need and, uh, ultimately,
you know, you're, you're providing
your service by getting it to them
at a. Uh, and more economies of scale.
So we'll oftentimes do more whitelisting
at, um, on the ad creative side.
And then on the landing page side,
what we've been doing lately is
having specific landing page
funnels, uh, carry off of
that influencer.
So I'll give you an example of that.
We had an account where we had all
the ad creative specific, um, with
an influencer, and then you
come to that page and, Oh, it's
the same person.
So you just have a consistency of
that buying funnel that's worked
really well, um, for top of funnels.
Also, I'd say like doing listicle type
of content of having a landing page that,
um, especially if you have an item
that's less of a commodity and you
need to do a lot more education on.
Uh, I'll give you the example of
like, maybe, maybe you're selling a
sleep supplement.
You want to help someone get
better sleep.
What we do is put together a guide.
Here are the top five recommended
neuroscience, uh, tips for getting
better sleep.
And maybe three or four of them
will be like peer reviewed articles
or things pointing back to doctors
and medical advice.
And then maybe we'll slip one item
in that's about their product or
service that's being offered.
So it's, it's kind of going for
a softer sale.
Where you're not like pitching
directly your product, but just
educating on a subject or a pain
point that they have, and then
introducing your product as part
of that solution.
So we see that work really well
for top of funnel.
And then going down to the bottom
of the funnel, it's honestly just
like static images still work great.
Like we, people often jump straight
to video, but we see like images
really work really well for that
reconversion, just product shots, maybe
testimony or feature feature a call out.
And those, those still do wonders.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, they do.
Uh, I, I can attest the images are still
doing very well.
Um, I'm, I'm curious again.
I've got lots of notes here, Jay.
So I, I'm going to pick on the,
the first thing that stands out.
So talk us through the, Influence,
uh, thing a little bit more.
So more and more people are talking
about this.
I was just on LinkedIn earlier,
and Jordan Wester just posted.
Jordan Wester, previous guest.
I don't know if you know Jordan.
Really interesting guy about
social commerce.
And he was, he was posting
about influence marketing, as has
Jordan's been.
And he He was waxing lyrical about it and
more and more people are, especially
with the way social commerce is now
starting to, it's seemingly starting
to take off.
Finally, we'll see what happens
with tick tock, obviously, in
America, but it seems to be sort
of taken off at least a little bit.
How do you go about finding
and recruiting good influencers?
Is this something you do as
a in house?
Is this something you get
clients to do?
Is this something that you get an
agency to do?
What's your, your tips there?
Jay Neyer: It's a little
blend of both.
Um, there's platforms that
we've utilized in the past too.
Honestly, the best what we've seen,
uh, either working directly ourselves
or with clients that we work with
is just get a VA and spreadsheets
and just direct outreach.
It's very much in the paint, like
just getting into the weeds and
sending out massive messages and trying
to be targeted and engaged with it.
That's frankly what we've seen work
best compared to other platforms
where you've paid to facilitate
those marketplaces.
TikTok and Instagram also
have marketplace for creators.
So I anticipate more tools coming around
that specifically.
Um, the model is still very
nascent and I'd say continuously
growing.
And I think it's.
Even though it's like, there's a lot
already in that, I think we're just
going to see more and more over the
next five years of what I, I predict
that to get even bigger, not less.
Yeah.
That's what, that's like one of the
examples of, I was referring to
of like, what are growing pools versus
shrinking pools.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah.
Jay Neyer: Um, and so honestly,
yeah, getting a, getting a VA and.
Going through the DMS is, it's frankly
where we see many brands get that.
Um, but you also want to make
sure you have a compelling offer.
It can point to examples, keep it
focused on them.
So again, when we do that, we just
show like, here's another influencer.
Here's, here's Brian, for example.
Here's the numbers of how many millions
of people we've sent to his profile.
Oh, yeah, I spent 0 on this.
So we're giving you free marketing
so you can have some assets to just
make it a, a no brainer for them.
Um, that I think will also, you know,
you could send the exact same pitch,
but then you make it more about them, you
get significantly sign up rates versus
before, like, Hey, we want to do this
confusing thing that you don't
fully understand, you know, like
I found so much message of what you
sent sent to the prospect in mind.
So just keep it focused on
them, how they're getting benefit,
um, why it's a win, win, win.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, clarity,
I think is super important, isn't it?
So you mentioned that you're
sending them.
A lot of people to the influencer's
social profile, if I've understood
that correctly.
Um, and so the influencer is also
therefore benefiting in terms of growing
their following.
Um, and I'm curious, how do you drive
people to there?
So when you say that about an
influencer, we're going to drive,
you know, whatever people to you.
Are you using paid ads to drive traffic
to their channels?
Jay Neyer: No.
So, uh, how, how it looks in the
back end is we link our ad account
to their profile.
So suppose you're the brand, you're
still footing the entire bill for
all the ad spend.
They're just linking their profile
to your account.
And majority of the cases too,
we're still sending them to the brand
landing page or the brand website.
Um, but this is coming up from their
profile, so we're not, we're generally
still doing conversion based
campaigns that are the pixels incentive
and goal is to capture an actual
purchase versus like sending traffic
to profile or something like that.
Um, but they're getting the
spillover from people who also
just see them, see their content,
uh, click on their page, you know,
cause from that, from that ad, you
can, who's, who's this guy who's.
Talking about this product.
What are they all about?
Click on the page and go down their
funnel that way.
Um, so it's still typically conversion
campaigns that we're running.
Matt Edmundson: And do you find
with influencers, it's, it's, um, a
case of, you still need to set a fee
or are people a lot more aware of.
Uh, no, I want a percentage of sales.
I, I, I, um, I, I think I'm going
to send a lot of people to your site.
So I, I want, you know, 10 percent
or whatever.
I don't know, whatever a
good rate is.
This
Jay Neyer: is a good question.
This is where we see a lot of variance.
And so I'll give you an example.
We have, we have one particular
client who has, uh, very expensive
products that are very heavy to ship.
So it's not feasible for them to just be
like slinging these things all around
giving you a free product because
you can either go free, you can
go paid route for paid for posting
or commission route of based on volume.
And usually we, I mean, we've
done all three depending on the
size of the account.
I would say we also try to
leverage and get good social proof
in the forms of product reviews and
things like that.
So anytime you can combine that with
influencers, it's really helpful.
Especially on the micro level, they're
probably more likely to do that.
And it's a lot easier for you to
facilitate like an actual purchase on
your website that can also lead back
into, uh, a verified review, getting
the testimony, getting the
content from that.
Um, but we also, you know, again, some
of our partners have been able to work
with influencers like Gronk or,
uh, or Joe Rogan.
And those have, you can imagine
like some of these have, actually
with Joe, it didn't have any cost.
The product was just that good.
Um, but for Gronk, there's definitely
compensation payment affiliated
with that.
And so, uh, for smaller brands,
again, even, even when we run the
same content with whitelisting and
just from the brand account, 95 percent
of the time, we still see better
performance with the whitelisting.
Um, so even, even with individuals
who have like a micro influencer of
thousand, 2000, like we still see good
results with it.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah.
That's really fascinating.
Really fascinating.
I am super curious about the influencer
landing page.
Um, just explain, I mean, you said
obviously there's a photo of or an
image of the, the influencer on the
page, so there's that connection,
uh, which comes, which comes through
that, um, uh, dig into that for me
a little bit more if you could.
Jay Neyer: I'll just go off of the
topic of sleep.
You know, this isn't a client at
all by any means.
I'm just the first thing that popped
in my head, but we'll run with it.
So suppose I have a product that's for
helping with sleep, and I found a list
of, Um, 10 or so sleep experts on
Instagram, people who talk about it
on their channel.
What I would do is approach them and
say, Hey, I want to set up a win
win win partnership with you, where
we're going to be running this
whitelisting content from your account.
We'll build out landing pages.
We're going to be paying for
all this traffic.
You're going to get free impressions
for, you know, whatever the weekly.
Podcast or show that he, that they
do on their own individual, you're
not going to get new eyeballs on that.
So I'd approach them about that and then
I'd say, okay, you know, assuming they
give me the thumbs up, let's do this.
What I would maybe then do is
create a landing page specific
around that.
Uh, we'll just call him Dr.
Jay.
So Dr. Jay has a landing page
where it's his image at the top.
Here are five tips.
Dr. Jay has for getting better
sleep each night, and one of them
might be, um, using, uh, Like turning
off your screen at least an hour or
two before night using low light or
red light, ideally in the evenings,
um, talking about caffeine, the latest
that you can have at the end of the day,
and then maybe item number four is this
specific supplement that helps.
Uh, get sleep.
And then number five might be talking
about having a cooler bedroom.
And so like four of these items
are just kind of tips or items.
And then, Oh, one of these is also a
product or a service that I'm offering
that you could consume with that.
And so that would be more top of
funnel when we're trying to educate.
And that's generally going to be more
necessary for people who have zero
exposure to you.
It's going to be a much softer sale.
And we're trying to make that look
like more like a. An article or a blog
publishing versus being like, this
is very obviously a website of
someone trying to sell me something.
Um, so that's about that would
look like a top funnel if you're
more middle funnel.
And I have some notoriety, a simpler
form of that could just be more of
like a collection or a product page.
And the simplest form even is just
having your hero banner with Dr. J or
whatever influence in that image, just
so you have some continuity and then
you can also, it'll be a lot easier to
get into that, some of that tracking.
If you do have, uh, like commission,
revenue share, things like that.
See how traffic, how traffic is
coming in from it.
Matt Edmundson: Really smart.
I like it.
And you didn't know this, but I
actually sell a sleep supplement.
So I'm going to steal all
your ideas.
Thank you.
Uh, it, it, it, it.
It is, um, it is interesting, isn't
it, how it's, it's not, I don't think e
commerce is becoming more complex.
I just think it's becoming more
nuanced, isn't it?
And you, you're now, years ago, you
just go, there's a sleep supplement,
just take it, what's wrong with you?
And then you had to do the blog post
and say, this is, you know, something
interesting about sleep supplements.
And then you have to do the
YouTube video.
And all of these things sort of
happen and now we're getting
influence to talk about it because
like you say, um, building your own
brand, that brand recognition is not
as straightforward in a very crowded,
noisy place.
And so the influencers have got
to do it for you.
Um, so I don't think e commerce
is becoming more complicated.
I do think it's becoming more
nuanced and learning these
new strategies.
I say new, but it's sort of old school
thinking, but In a new way, isn't it?
Seems to be having quite a big impact.
Jay Neyer: Definitely.
Back in the day, at least from
my experience, as used to be,
their targeting was way better.
So you had some meta, you could
just tell it exactly the type of
person that you're trying to find.
Uh, and it was really good at
finding that person.
We see the opposite today.
So like, there's really only
four levers.
In the profitability equation, it's
like it's CPMs.
How expensive is it to advertise
click through rate?
Are people engaging in the content
conversion rate?
Are they making the purchase?
And then all that.
Multiply against the AOV, like how
much are people ordering for?
And today it's like, you actually want
to do as broad.
We see better performance just
going very wide and broad because
you're going to have lower CPMs versus
otherwise, if you're trying to dial all
these knobs and just try to get hyper
specific, you just, you just end up.
Cranking up your CPMs.
And so it eats up tremendously
into the equation.
So those four numbers and data
points haven't really changed.
Like even back in the day, those
were still the same numbers, but
now we're seeing like, okay, where,
where are those trends shifting?
So we anticipate CPMs to kind of
gradually increase more and more each
year as advertising gets more expensive.
How can we keep those CPMs lower,
still get the impressions.
Um, and still get the relevancy, but
without jacking up the rest of
the equation.
Matt Edmundson: Yeah, but all
excellent points Jay and I did Which
gives me another two hours of
conversation that I think we need to
have really just digging into this
a little bit more But I'm also aware
of time and and so what I want to do
Uh, before I get too carried away,
I've started and I've remembered,
uh, on this particular occasion.
Uh, I've started, I say I've started,
I've been asking guests now for
a while for a question, which
I go and answer on social media.
I don't answer on the podcast.
I go and answer on social media.
If you want to know my answer to Jay's
question, come find me on LinkedIn.
Uh, that's where I'll be
answering it.
Uh, so Jay, what's your
question for me?
Jay Neyer: My question would
be if you could leave one message
on a billboard for the world to
see, what would your message be?
Matt Edmundson: Oh, that's such
a good question.
As you started talking, I was like,
if you could just leave one message.
And for some reason I went to the
old school answer machine messages.
Do you know what I mean?
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Uh, which I thought was, I thought, but
I like the billboard one as well.
So no, very good.
If you want to know my answer to that
question, like I say, come follow
me on social media.
Uh, but Jay, listen, I, uh, fascinating
conversation, but, and, um,
congratulations on all your success.
Uh, it seems to be, um, Well earned.
Uh, and I'm fascinating.
And if people want to reach out to you,
if they want to find out more about how
maybe you can help them, maybe they've
got a Shopify site.
Maybe they're six figures.
They want to go to eight figures and
just need some good old conversations
with you.
Good looking self.
How would they do that?
Jay Neyer: Yeah.
Uh, my website, lanternsol.com L A
N T E R N S O L. You can also find me on
most social media platforms, Twitter,
LinkedIn, Instagram, Jay Neyer, J A Y
and then N E Y E R. So just send
me a message.
Uh, come check out our website.
Be more than happy to help.
Matt Edmundson: Fantastic.
We will, of course, link to all of
those things in the show notes, which
you can get along for free with the
transcript on the website, e commerce
podcast dot net.
Or of course, you know this by now,
if you're listening to this on a podcast
player like Apple podcast or, um,
Spotify to scroll down because the
show notes, they show them these
days, don't they?
Uh, and so we will make sure all of
those links are in the show notes,
but Jay, listen, thanks for coming
on the show, man.
Really appreciate it.
Great to meet you.
Uh, and thanks for your work.
Thanks for giving me a massive
strategy around my sleep supplement.
Thanks for having
Jay Neyer: me.
It was
Matt Edmundson: awesome.
Uh, it was great.
Uh, what a great conversation again.
Now let me do this huge round
of applause.
Yes.
We like the cheesy sound desk.
Oh yes, we do.
Now be sure to follow the e
commerce podcast wherever you get
your podcast from because of course we
have got some more great conversations
lined up and I don't want you to miss.
Any of them.
And in case no one has told you
yet today, let me be the first.
You are awesome.
Yes, you are created.
Awesome.
It's just a burden.
You've got to bear.
Jay's got to bear it.
I've got to bear it.
You've got to bear it as well.
Now, the e commerce podcast is produced
by pod junction.
You can find our entire archive
of episodes on your favorite
podcast app.
The theme music was brilliantly written
by Josh Edmundson.
And as I mentioned, the show notes,
the transcript.
The links, everything are
on the website, ecommercepodcast.
net, which where is the place you
go to to instantly sign up to the
newsletter, which I mentioned earlier.
Uh, so go do that.
But that's it for me.
That's it from Jay.
Thank you so much for joining us.
Have a fantastic week wherever you
are in the world.
I'll see you next time.
Bye for now.