- There's a story inside every smoke shop,

with every cigar, and with every person.

Come be a part of the cigar lifestyle of Boveda.

This is Box Press.

(slow guitar music)

Welcome to another episode of Box Press.

I'm your host, Rob Gagner,

and I'm actually in the studio at Boveda headquarters

with none other than Luciano Meirelles.

Luciano, thank you for joining me.

- Thanks for inviting me, bro.

I'm very excited to be here.

- I can't believe that I even get

to sit next to you right now in a more quiet space

because last night we were at a cigar event,

there was a lot going on,

you were rolling cigars, which was really cool,

but this is a lot nicer for me

to just kind of sit back, relax,

and enjoy a good conversation. - Yeah.

Like I told you before, man, I love those events,

especially when we have a chance to interact with people.

But of course, being here silent, quiet-

- [Rob] Right.

- It's definitely something that I love too.

- And we're smoking the Fiat Lux,

which is not the car brand,

but I thought it was, to be honest.

I thought it was the car brand.

And you created this,

when did you create this blend?

Because I think I got exposed to it last year at PCA.

- Yeah, the brand was launched at PCA last year.

- Okay, so this was new to last year?

- Yeah, it's new for our company's portfolio.

This is probably one of the cigars

that took me the longest to blend.

- Really? - Not because it was hard,

it was just like I wanted to...

I had the name already in my head,

I want a cigar that would truly reflect what Fiat Lux means.

- What does it mean?

- It means let there be light.

- Let there be light.

- You see that a lot into the Genesis,

the Bible translation of Latin,

but also, it was a very common expression

used during the Enlightenment.

People refer to knowledge as light.

- Okay. - That expression, Fiat Lux,

was very common during the Enlightenment period.

It's based on the social movement, Enlightenment.

That's why the sizes of the cigars,

they are the expression of human knowledge.

You have Intuitions,

you're actually smoking Intuition now,

there's the Insights, the Acumen.

- [Rob] Oh.

- All the sizes are named after an expression

of the human knowledge.

- See these are the things I don't pick up on.

I just look at the size and I go,

okay, I don't know why they named it that.

- Yeah. (laughs) - I love that though.

It's like every single cigar maker

has a reason for naming it

and it usually coincides with the meaning of the brand.

- Yeah.

- [Rob] That is super helpful for me.

- Yeah, I think, for me, cigars,

they need to reflect a real story.

I see many, and again, I'm not criticizing

because I actually have to make cigars commission-

- Yeah, yeah.

- For other companies.

But I like when actually the cigar

translates a real story that happened.

- [Rob] Right.

- Or if it's a fiction story,

which is very common in the cigar industry, it's fine.

As long as your starting point was the story

and you evolve it into developing the brand.

I think they sound way more, they actually,

people empathize always when the story is real, it's true.

- Yeah.

Whether the story is true or not,

just the fact that you're putting the meaning behind it.

- Yeah. - You're running with a theme.

It'd be very confusing if this was just like,

oh, I called it Fiat Lux and then that was it.

- Yeah, I like the name. - Yeah.

- I like the car. (laughs) - Yeah, I like the car.

It's great.

Yeah, no. - Yeah.

- Wonderful.

But you have this vast history not only in cigars,

but then other areas of life.

But it was kind of interesting,

I found out from another episode,

I think you went out to Texas at Industrial Cigar

and you really started with farming,

then you went to contract making,

and then you launched your own brand.

- That's correct. - Why?

Why that method versus like, most people can only say,

hey, I'm gonna launch a brand

and I'm gonna have XYZ cigar maker make it,

and then they go, oh, I got enough money

and I might go buy some fields.

And then, oh, I got enough money,

I'm gonna open up my own rolling facility.

- Yeah. - It's almost always that way.

You went the other way. - Yeah.

I was involved at a very early age

into developing investment funds

and I got specialized in private equity,

when private equity wasn't as big as it is today,

developed very successful investment funds.

I created the first green fund in Latin America

back in 1997. - What is that?

Just explain investment funds

and what that would mean to me.

- Yeah, a green fund

is when you are basically investing allocations of shares

of unit of funds in companies

that are somehow related to sustainability,

environmental sustainability. - Got it.

- It could be even oil companies.

It could be research companies, pharmaceutical.

If you have actually, if you have how to demonstrate

that your impact as a company brings more benefit

to the environment, so you become part of the portfolio,

because at that time,

we believed that this would be the future,

and we are seeing now- - Right.

- That actually companies

that are environmentally sustainable

will actually be now a choice for the consumer.

At that time, people didn't care much about it.

Now you see more and more,

especially with this new, the past three, four generations,

really worried about what's gonna happen with our planet.

And that was very, very new.

We developed the first one in Latin America.

And then, I was just kind of traveling like crazy.

I was basically living in three different countries.

I would spend a week in Switzerland,

one week in Sao Paolo or Dominican,

and then another week in Chicago with my family.

I didn't see my eldest daughter growing.

It was basically my wife herself.

And I thought that that was normal.

But I realized that I was actually losing my family,

making a lot of money, but losing my family.

I make a decision, just making the story short,

this was back in 2007,

I made a decision to change my lifestyle

and stop doing what I was doing.

I was blessed to be able to retire at a very young age.

Then I met Ernesto Perez-Carrillo

because the Dominican Republic

was one of my clients at that time.

- [Rob] Okay.

- One of the side business of my private equity business

was that I always developed very good relationships

with the government and some other private entities.

- Okay.

- We would partner with Firestone, with Bridgestone,

and with FIFA, the world soccer,

companies like Nestle,

and the government of Dominican Republic.

And one of my business trips, I had a chance

to meet all the cigar manufacturers in Dominican,

but Ernie and I really kind of connected.

And that's exactly at that time when I made that decision

that I would not live that lifestyle anymore.

Ernie was a big supporter.

And then Ernie was the one, because I told him, I said,

listen, I'm a cigar smoker for many years.

I have this weird disease.

I can memorize flavors and I love to blend cigars.

And he said, well, I'm gonna introduce you to a guy.

I don't know him so well, but I knew his father

who worked for Habanos many years, his name is Pichardo.

He introduced me to Pichardo,

and Pichardo had recently fled Cuba to Brazil.

And he was growing what now it's known as the Cubra wrapper,

which is a Cuban seed grown in Brazil.

- [Rob] Okay.

- And I met Pichardo and we became very good friends.

And a year later, we are farming tobacco,

and 18 months later, we created the factory in Nicaragua.

And it was very organic,

and for me, it was a nonprofit business.

- Okay.

- It's not that I wanted to make a lot of money,

I just basically wanted to help those villages in Nicaragua,

help poor people in Brazil.

And later, it became a business

because I realized that becoming a for-profit,

we could help more people,

we could empower those families in Nicaragua.

And I created a very decentralized operation in Nicaragua

where I have different processing facilities

all over the city and I would choose the poorest areas

to pressure the city hall to bring some more infrastructure.

- [Rob] Sure.

- There was the whole concept of investing in Nicaragua.

Then a few years later,

we start getting very kind of good contracts

to make cigars for other brands, for other people.

- [Rob] Right.

- And that became very successful.

We became known as good constructors of cigars.

Years later, that portfolio really grew

and we ended up making 2.5 million cigars a year

for other people.

And that's where we are now.

I mean, years later, we're talking about 12 years later,

we get with Crowned Heads and we launch Juarez with them.

We make that cigar for them.

And back in 2017, it's when Miguel Schoedel,

I don't know if you know him-

- Yup. - He's a great guy,

basically reintroduce us to Mike and John

and we have this amazing synergy, amazing conversation,

and that's where Mil Dias started to be developed.

We had some blends and we were there actually with General

because we were making cigars for them at that time.

We sat, we talked, we smoked the cigar, and they loved it.

And it took us two years to really actually work that blend

to what became the final Mil Dias that's out there.

Yeah, I think that kind of is the short version.

- Yeah, okay, that's a wrap, we're all done with Box Press.

- (laughs) Yeah, that's it, let's go.

Let's talk about other things.

- Yeah, there's way more to you than the cigar.

But that gives everyone a great background

of obviously how you got started in it.

But what I find so interesting is

you mentioned that you have a disease that helps you,

it helps you memorize stuff, but it's also very interfering

with your, just name that disease

because I can't even name it.

- It's called synesthesia. - Synesthesia.

- Synesthesia is, it's actually a phenomenon

that happens to some human beings.

Everybody has a little bit of it,

but I have a very severe synesthesia.

- Yeah, you said it's like when you hear the scratching

on the chalkboard and you kind of get that, ugh.

- Yeah.

That's kind of what most of human beings have.

That reaction, it's a little bit what synesthesia is.

You can physically actually feel pain

because of certain frequencies or noises.

That's just a little- - Wow.

- It's a way to kind of demonstrate what it is.

But it's basically when your senses are all mixed up,

like when you taste something or you smell something,

sometimes there are colored layers that I see.

- You see colors? - I see colors.

In any situation.

But those colors will vary according to what I'm smoking,

and even the topic of the conversation.

If I'm feeling comfortable, those colors will change.

If there's a background noise or the absence of noise,

they'll actually change what I feel in my mouth

in terms of taste.

I don't have actually a photographic memory.

I have a pretty good memory to read.

- [Rob] Yep.

- But my flavor memory is, it's very accurate.

But again, it sounds cool, it sounds fun,

but actually it's 99% of bad things

that comes with the package.

- I was gonna say, one seeing colors,

I know certain people that,

like psychedelics would love that.

(laughing)

I think there's other people that-

- [Luciano] Now see, I don't need to get high to do that.

- Yeah.

I think there's other people

that would love to be able to say that they could remember,

including me, a flavor that they had.

Because when I smoke cigars or have something,

I'm like, oh, that was good. - Yeah.

- But I couldn't go back and be like,

this cigar tasted like this. - Yeah.

- It's quite amazing, but it stinks to be suffering from it-

- Yeah. - From that perspective.

- I mean, it's a lot of headaches, a lot of situations

that you feel extremely uncomfortable.

- [Rob] Sure.

- But I learned how to cope with it.

It's been since I remember,

so it's been years and years and years.

And I remember when people had no clue what that was

when I was younger.

And I remember just going to psychiatrists

and trying all sorts of medications and things to kind of,

they would think it was some sort of like ADD or-

- [Rob] Right.

- I don't know, depression, whatever.

I took all sorts of medications.

Nothing ever worked until modern medicine, God bless,

they were able to figure out what I had, ran some tests,

and there was a pattern of colors that I would see

with certain frequencies and sounds.

- [Rob] Wow.

- And so then, they was able to find out what I had.

- How old were you then? - Oh man, I was 30-something.

It was a life- - It wasn't until-

- Suffering with that shit. - Your 30s?

- [Luciano] I was 30-something.

- Did that inhibit your ability to work or not?

- Yeah, it's kind of weird,

like I think it enhanced certain aspects of creativity

or ability, again, to read the room or for human relations.

For some reason that always,

I believe it's part of the package, it always helped.

- [Rob] Right.

- But on other hand, it was a nightmare.

I just, you just have to become stronger,

you have to be more resistant, you gotta,

you have to be more resilient.

Those are all positive things.

I do believe that we become stronger

in what we think is our weakest parts.

- Absolutely.

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

I feel too, I respond emotionally,

and somebody said something about,

by the time you're the age four,

you've really learned how to deal with stuff emotionally,

and after that, you don't really develop

that emotional response to something, to a stimulus.

And I thought that was interesting

because like I sometimes respond very emotionally

to stimulus.

- [Luciano] Yeah.

- And I just found that interesting.

Now that I have a kid, I'm like,

what can I do to help you develop the most

in this four-year window? - Yeah.

- And I don't know how much truth there is to that-

- Yeah. - But it is, like you said,

anytime that there's something that gets in your way,

you have to figure out how to deal with it,

and then you have to figure out how

to let that be empowering to you,

because we're all unique. - Exactly.

- And so, if we don't learn how to empower our traits

and skills and gifts, it's kind of a waste.

- Yeah.

I was basically raised, let me get some water here,

I was basically raised by my grandparents.

When I was only two years old- - Really?

- Yeah.

Basically, my mom- - Go ahead and take-

- Yeah, my mom was like- - You can take a sip.

- I don't know, she was 18 years old when she got pregnant.

My father was probably 16.

- [Rob] Wow.

- I was raised with my uncle as a brother,

because my uncle is only five years difference than I am.

And being raised by my grandparents was a blessing.

That man was so wise.

And he used to say,

whatever comes to your hands, just do your best.

Because I always had that kind of,

because of the synesthesia and other things,

I always had that struggle to find out

what I was actually wired for.

- Right.

- What am I supposed to do in my life.

All kids go through the same thing when they're teenagers.

But for me, it was really terrible.

I had no idea what I was going to do with my life.

And my grandfather would always say,

just kind of do your best.

Whatever's in your hands, just do your best.

And then I learned to understand opportunities

because sometimes- - Yeah.

- Those opportunities will be presented to you,

and if it's in my hand, I gotta do my best with it.

- Right.

- And I think that kind of was ingrained into who I became

because of the wisdom of my grandfather, that's for sure.

- That's awesome. - Yeah.

- I mean, just being able to pick up the wisdom of,

whether it be a matriarch or a patriarch of the family,

and it sounds like that was your grandfather to you.

- Yeah.

- There's a lot there.

And I think you were showing me, you grabbed a bag,

but you had a ribbon on the back, and you were saying,

your grandfather said, what do you see here?

And you couldn't see the ribbon.

And he would say- - That's right.

- And you would say, I see a bag.

And he'd say, no, this is a ribbon actually.

And then he would tell you,

get up from your seat and walk around and see from my eyes.

- Yeah.

- And that's the most empowering thing in life

is to try to get into somebody else's frame of reference.

- Yeah.

I'm far from being the wise man he was,

but this is one thing that I think probably

I don't even have the merit for,

I think it was how my brain was always wired,

is that I value way more knowledge than being right.

- [Rob] Sure.

- In several situations, I see the human beings,

they always like fight for being right.

- Right.

- They want their opinions to prevail.

It's kind of easy for me.

For some reason, I kind of enjoy being challenged

and enjoy being called to see from a different perspective.

And which, of course, caused some fights in the,

we're joking outside about my marriage.

- Yeah.

- Because that can sound very arrogant.

- Right.

- If you don't really explain what that means.

But if I have, let's say I'm talking to my wife or my kids

and let's say we're arguing about something,

not arguing, but I have a point of view

that I have absolute conviction-

- Right. - About it.

And then when I'm talking to them,

I'm trying to see first what perspective they have,

so where they're coming from,

and also, if I can find any truth

that will make me change my mind.

That's the mindset that I,

when I walk into a conversation, I naturally go that path.

I want to know what he's seeing that I'm not seeing.

- [Rob] Right.

- Because that, I must say,

might be probably one of my downfalls too.

I wanna know everything.

I wanna control, I wanna know what's going on,

what he thinks, what he thinks, and-

- Right. - There's the bad side of it,

but I wanna know the truth, and the truth excites me,

even if it's 100% against what my opinions are right now.

- [Rob] Right.

- And if it's true, then I start getting goosebumps.

I say, man, how I didn't see this?

- Right.

- How I didn't realize all this truth before.

- Right.

- That excites me.

And I know that for a lot of people,

what excites them is to win a debate.

- Yeah. - It's to win a conversation.

It's like, see, I'm right, you're not.

- [Rob] Right.

- See, I know the truth, you're not.

We have all this silly competition that goes on and on

in every single circumstance, even passive aggressively.

- Right.

- When you walk into like a cigar lounge, a cigar event,

and I saw that happening last night a lot.

People were arguing over a blend,

oh, this is it, this is it,

and then someone asked me the question,

I have no idea what they're talking about, so I answer,

oh, this is actually Jalapa, this is actually,

see, I told you, I was right. - Yeah, right.

- In my situation, I will look at that and I say,

wow, man, that's amazing, this is Jalapa.

- Yeah, and I would've never guessed.

- I'll get extremely excited about finding the truth.

- Right. - Yeah.

- Now there's, so I grew up without a father as well,

so I took on a little bit of what you were saying.

I had to ask a lot of questions.

And any of my employers will tell you,

if they were gonna tell you, okay, you're gonna hire Rob,

be ready for a lot of questions.

And it's not to question your authority,

it's not to question your path,

it's to question, okay, I need to understand how to do this-

- I wanna know. - And how you want it done.

Or I need to make sure

that this is being done the right way.

I'm always asking that question of like,

is this the right way, should it be going this way,

is there something else that- - Yeah.

- I should be looking at it.

I was a funeral director for a while

and one guy said a really good story.

He said, a guy asked the funeral director

why he was washing the hearse.

And he said, because this is carrying somebody's loved one.

Not from the simple perspective of,

I'm just washing the hearse, but his deeper meaning into it

was that this vehicle needs to look its best

because it's representing somebody's life

that's very important.

And that stuck with me.

From the beginning, I was like,

okay, this is a different way of thinking

about what you do and how you do it

that I need to adapt into my life.

I think that's why I ask so many questions.

- Yeah.

That's what makes you a good interviewer too. (laughs)

- Well, I guess.

I guess, I don't know.

- Yeah.

But people who are always seeking knowledge,

they ask questions, and that's how it should be.

If people would spend more time asking questions

and try to answer all of them, they'll be-

- Right. - Much happier.

- When you met Pichardo,

who was the gentleman that had fled Cuba

and was growing some tobacco,

and is obviously the name of a cigar line

that you guys create,

(inhaling)

what type of mentorship did he give you that made you say,

Because I think everyone in the cigar business has it,

they have some sort of mentor-

- [Luciano] Oh yeah.

- That's further down the line of them.

And I don't think there's one greatest of all

and I think all mentors are important,

but there's that connection,

that synergy that you talked about.

What led you to draw into the synergy of Pichardo?

- I must say, I probably have,

I had three mentors that I believe help formed

who I am today and the knowledge I have

on tobacco and cigars.

The first one, of course, was Ernesto

because Ernesto was this amazing, successful,

and for me, one of the best blenders in the world.

But Ernesto told me the business side of everything.

I remember walking to his office

and the first thing he says is, you know the old joke,

like how you make a million dollars in a cigar

starts with 2 million. - Mm-hmm.

- But he would come to me and said,

if you're looking to make money in this industry,

just go do something else because it's not about it.

- Why do they all say that?

- Because it's true.

It's true.

I mean, especially on the manufacturing side.

And that's what people, sometimes they oversee.

A lot of people talk about passion.

- Right.

- But real, real passion is for people

who truly do what they do not because they're interesting

into the end of making money,

in any aspect of life, not just in cigars.

- Right.

- And second, because I think the manufacturing

is where we make least money.

People don't know this,

but the whole vertical segment of premium cigars,

you make way more money by selling a brand

than anything else and by actually growing tobacco.

Those are the two, probably the two extremes

of the premier cigar production.

- Which one's less and which one's more?

Growing tobacco is less?

- No, those two are the ones that you make more money.

- The most. - The most.

- Okay, so growing it?

- Growing tobacco and selling a brand.

- And selling a brand.

- Then I would say that the best margin after that

would probably be on distributing cigars.

- [Rob] Okay.

- That's probably the best margin,

or volume, or maybe retailing, it's better

- [Rob] Sure.

- Of course if you have the same volume

of distribution and retail, you're gonna make more money.

Usually it's Keystone.

Retailers might get upset with me,

but actually it's probably at least for 50%,

they'll make- - Well, yeah, I mean-

- They have a lot of bills to pay though.

- Yeah. - I'm not considering,

let's put it this way, I'm not considering net profit.

- Right.

- I'm considering just kind of-

- You're just talking about- - Revenue.

- Actual profit margin on transaction.

- Yeah, just revenue.

And I think then comes,

the last one is definitely manufacturing cigars.

That's when the margins are really, really small.

- [Rob] Sure.

- But we started, because you asked

about the mentors that I had.

And so, Ernie definitely taught me the business side

of everything, and I've learned a lot from that man

just by osmosis. - Right.

- Just by getting a little bit from his day-to-day life.

- You were probably asking a lot of questions.

- Asking a lot of questions, of course.

I probably bothered him, I bothered him so much.

But then, Pichardo is definitely a mentor.

Pichardo knew a lot about growing tobacco.

He does know a lot about growing tobacco.

That guy, for me, is one of the most complete farmers

you can possibly find in this. - Sure.

- For me, it's him, it's Plasencia.

- Yeah.

- Pichardo has always been,

always kind of a very humble guy, doesn't speak English,

but it's not like a guy who go out there to promote himself.

He's very kind of humble.

But I learned a lot about farming with Pichardo.

And I must say that fermentation and understanding,

especially the science behind the fermentation

and blending and making a cigar,

Arsenio Ramos was the guy that I had the privilege

to spend at least the last of his five years of life.

And he was the guy who I would say mentored me

into everything.

That man, and I miss him so much, man.

The guy was- - Pichardo?

- No, Arsenio Ramos.

- Arsenio? - Arsenio Ramos.

Arsenio Ramos, I love to talk about Arsenio,

because sometimes people say, who is Arsenio Ramos?

- Yeah. - Arsenio Ramos,

and I have no problem saying this right now,

he is the brain behind everything that Aganorsa did.

Arsenio Ramos was responsible

for all the fermentation at Aganorsa, and blends.

- At Aganorsa? - For many years.

Yeah, for the last,

at least the last seven years of his life,

he worked for Eduardo Fernandez at Aganorsa.

And Arsenio also was the blender for Habanos.

Arsenio was behind, with Pichardo, behind Partagas.

He was behind Cohiba.

Arsenio was the guy who was responsible

for all the entire Cohiba line in Cuba.

- Wow.

- He was once in charge of Legados.

And it's funny, like three days ago, I was with Mikey,

who actually is the President of Tabacalera, he runs it now.

He works for Ernesto.

And he was the VP for Habanos, the most recent VP.

And he also was responsible for all the entities

of Habanos relationship in Europe.

He lived in France for many years.

- Sure.

- And he knew Arsenio and Arsenio was his mentor as well.

Then we're sharing stories about Arsenio

and then we're both crying at Carrillo's office.

And just sort of remembering who he was.

- Right.

- He was very much Ernesto,

like he would give attention to everybody.

- Sure.

- And he would treat everybody with love

and respect and attention,

would always walk the extra mile

with expecting nothing in return.

- Right.

- He would just do it for the sake of passing on knowledge.

Arsenio, for me, was the most important living being

in the cigar industry until he passed two years ago.

And the most knowledgeable, the most complete knowledge

of tobacco, in my opinion, was Arsenio Ramos.

Arsenio was this great guy, and he would,

even though he was working with Eduardo,

he would give attention to a lot of people.

And I know many other cigar makers

that he mentored them into the business.

- [Rob] Wow.

- And today, you see a lot of people

calling themselves master blenders, which is kind of funny.

I don't think master blender

is a title that you give to yourself.

- No.

- You can never call yourself a master blender.

- Right.

Or even if you'd like to.

- And even if people call me that,

I feel extremely uncomfortable to this day.

- Really? - Yeah.

I mean, I-

- You wouldn't classify yourself as a master blender?

- I don't like that classification to be honest.

- [Rob] What would you say?

- I'm a cigar maker, bro.

- Cigar maker. - I'm a cigar maker,

a cigar lover, let's put this way, I'm a tobacco lover.

- [Rob] Okay.

- I happen to make cigars, I happen to grow tobacco,

and I try to do my best.

And I'm telling you, real master blenders,

they don't call themselves that.

I never saw Ernesto Carrillo call himself a master.

Never.

Ernesto would never go out and say, I'm a master blender.

Never.

Or anyone.

- Do you think that's just

because they're always learning from tobacco?

- Even Arsenio, yeah,

because true masters don't say they're masters.

I mean, they're always learning.

- Right.

- [Luciano] They're masters because they're learning.

- Do you think, though, that there's a,

either a time period or a knowledge base

that gets them to the point

where they can actually produce something good?

- Yes.

I think...

Skip Martin says that like

what makes good cigars is good tobacco.

I agree with him.

I think if you have good quality tobacco,

I think anyone that's a cigar smoker

would eventually be able to create

maybe more one dimensional, maybe there'll be a limit

of things he can do, but if the tobacco's well fermented.

But of course, once you learn, and again,

people have different skill sets.

I don't wanna be weird about this,

but I mean, if I wanted to become a Michael Jordan

and train a lot and get a fucking personal trainer

to become a Michael Jordan,

I would never become a Michael Jordan.

- [Rob] No.

- I don't have the same body structure.

I don't have the same brain he has.

And it's fine. - Right.

- People think sometimes that actually making cigars,

it's just like you can be a Michael Jordan anytime you want,

you can just go there and become a master blender,

just because you want to.

Just because I wanna learn, and if I learn,

I'll become a master blender.

It's not like that.

People are wired differently. - Yeah.

- I would never become a very, very good scientist

or a mathematician, although I like those things

and I might be a little bit good at it,

but I don't have that kind of proficiency

to be a master in that area.

And I think people lack to respect that

or just to understand,

just understand that people are different.

Some people are meant to be blenders,

some people are not meant to be blenders

because they're wired differently.

- Exactly.

That's why I don't lie about my tasting ability of cigars.

- Yeah. - What notes are you tasting?

Good, and bad.

- Yeah. - That's it.

- And that's how it should be.

It's when you go to, a lot of people,

if you go to a Michelin-star restaurant-

- Yeah.

- And you order this amazing dish,

usually I like to ask the chef

to bring whatever he wants to me,

and when I taste, I just feel like, man, this is amazing.

I'm feeling this amazing sensation in my mouth and-

- Right.

- But people today, dude, they smoke the amazing cigar

and they start just talking things about it

as if they knew how that was made.

It's like walking to this restaurant and saying,

okay, so I'm pretty sure that he had

this kind of balsamic from Modena,

and then he used this fleur de sel of Italy

or the south of Italy, and then they put this, come on dude.

- Hey man, you sound like a som now, man.

That's exactly what they're trained for.

- [Luciano] Yeah.

- Where did that grape come from?

- But like, there's things that, just enjoy,

just enjoy the nice meal you're having.

- That's all I can do, man.

- And praise God that there are people

who are skilled enough to kind of produce that amazing food

and just enjoy, just have a good time.

- Right, yeah.

- With cigars, it's the same.

I do respect a lot of the cigar media

and people who talk about cigar.

And you and I, we talked about this before.

The more information is provided,

the more the consuming market is informed-

- Yeah.

- The more consumption will be.

I actually believe that we should be providing information

in the blogs.

They're extremely important for our industry today.

- Right.

- But I think the approach, how this is done,

it's, people have to be a little more careful,

although the majority are doing great work.

- Right.

Yeah, Cigar Culture No. 3?

Did you see anything about that cigar?

It was put out by a broker from the East Coast,

and I'm drawing a blank on his name right now,

he's gonna kill me, but it was a great cigar,

and on the back of it, it named all the areas

that the tobacco came from, when it was planted,

what humidity it was at, what region-

- I love it, yeah.

- To me, that was like,

okay, now I can actually maybe be like,

oh, they're saying the sweetness comes from this tobacco

from this region and that's why they picked it.

And I think that's where I go more with anything.

Because like you said,

you can take the same tobacco and the way you ferment it

does something different and where you grow it

is something different because the soil matters.

For me to be like, oh, all Habanos is great,

I do gravitate towards Habanos

because it typically has a sweetness to it-

- Yeah.

- But I can't say that every Habanos

that I've smoked I've liked.

That's just not possible.

- It's impossible.

And listen, I see a lot of people talking

about Nicaraguan tobaccos in a very, very wrong way.

I've seen bloggers talking about Ometepe tobacco

as if it's something new that they gotta be very careful

because there's a lot of sulfur in the soil.

Plasencia's been using Ometepe for years.

He actually controls maybe 70% of Ometepe tobacco.

You see, they just don't disclose every details

of the tobaccos they put in their blends.

- Right.

- If you look at Padron, Padron heavily uses Ometepe,

and other cigar makers.

And I see this silly thing now going on with certain blogs

just kind of saying, oh, because Ometepe,

oh, I'm feeling there's some bitterness,

it might be coming from this Ometepe.

You don't know what you're talking about.

Ometepe has sulfur, it's true,

but it has a lot of salinity.

The reaction of that leaf with almost anything in Nicaragua

makes you salivate. - Right.

- That's why sometimes a half leaf of Ometepe,

one leaf of Ometepe, it's magical when used well.

Or people talking about Esteli too,

it's funny because Esteli, you have the city of Esteli,

and then you have what they call the departmental,

which would be like a province of Esteli,

which involves other cities as well,

like Contigo is part of Esteli actually.

The tobacco that's grown around the surroundings

of the city has a specific type of elevation.

- [Rob] Okay.

- And so, and we are already at 3,000 feet high,

so the mountains are not so tall there

so you can still see the mountains,

it kind of looks like the mountains are small.

- Sure.

- But actually, if you're in Managua,

those mountains are huge. - Right.

- Because you are in a plateau in the area.

The tobacco has a level of rain, the soil composition,

and what the rain washes from those mountains into the soil.

It's a very specific taste profile you get out of that area.

But then you just go like 10 kilometers,

which is like five miles, north,

and then you start declining, declining

almost like 1,000 feet. - Wow.

- And that is still Esteli, and it's a lot,

I'm not gonna mention it, but there's a lot of farms there.

And that's the Esteli that I like the most.

- [Rob] Really?

- It's actually a little, little north of Esteli,

so the tobacco's a little more rounded, little less sharp.

But even within Esteli,

if you are in the east side or if you're in the west side,

the soil composition is a little different too.

- Yeah.

- And so, when you say, oh, I love Esteli tobacco, okay-

- There's a lot of variance there.

- There's a lot of variance there,

so where's the Esteli from?

It's from the north.

It's actually further down when you get to,

about to get into Contigo, or actually it's from the city,

it's from the east side of the city

or the west side of the city, or even Contigo.

- Sure.

- We have Contigo and Pueblo Nuevo,

Very similar soils, very similar soils,

but Pueblo, it's in a high elevation.

- [Rob] Okay.

- The notes you get from both tobaccos

are very, very similar,

but there's something with the high Prime

that you get out of Pueblo that you don't get on Contigo,

even if it's the same seed.

It's a little more rounded, it's less sharp.

You get, you can actually build blends, stronger blends,

using more high prime, more Viso ligero

out of Pueblo than out of Contigo.

- That's amazing.

- And they're just a few miles apart-

- Sure.

- Sometimes less than two miles.

- With that though, I mean,

because of all the variables

and the extremely lack of information we get as consumers,

what's the solution to help the consumer

make better educated decisions-

- That's a very good point. - Of what cigars to invest in?

- That's a good point.

I mean, again, when I talk about the regions,

there isn't a bad region or a good region.

- [Rob] No.

- This is just like wine, it's the same thing.

- [Rob] Yeah.

- If you are in the Burgundy area,

you have like that amazing,

what they call the most expensive wine in the world,

Romanée-Conti, which is just like

a very, very small plot of land.

And then you have, just neighbor to that place,

a different vineyard and they make great wines too,

but they don't charge $14,000 a bottle

because that soil is different.

- Right.

- The inclination, the amount of sunlight.

There's all these variables,

but that doesn't make the other one bad.

It's just that when we blend, we try to use some,

we try to kind of fine tune those nuances into the blend.

- [Rob] Right.

- I just gave an example of the high Prime,

the thick tobacco that we can make a cigar with.

Some people love to work more with Viso and Seco

so they can use more variety of leaves into the cigar.

If you are using just Viso ligero,

we're gonna have to opt to use less tobacco,

less variance of tobacco into that blend.

There's no like better or worse.

- Right.

- But being direct and answering your question,

I think the fault is of the manufacturer, that's for sure.

It's our fault.

We should be providing more information,

educating people better.

What happened right now is that

what some bloggers start talking in their blogs,

they repeat over and over again and there's some copycats,

they'll come and also repeat that over and over again,

and then suddenly, it becomes truth.

- Right.

- And I can point out several things-

- [Rob] Right.

- That are completely off.

- [Rob] Sure.

- But just people still talk about it

over and over and over again.

I just hope one day, people will have a little more,

they'll search a little more for the truth.

And I think there's a trend- - Right.

- Which you and I talked about before as well.

I think people are craving truth.

People are tired of the bullshit.

- Yeah.

One of my biggest things that I hated in retail

was when somebody said, I don't like darker-colored cigars

or I don't like Connecticut or I don't like,

and they peg a specific either leaf or region or something

with they don't like it.

Now, if you truly don't like it, that's fine.

But I would love to seek out,

I'd love to flip the paradigm like you do and say,

I don't wanna say I don't like Connecticut,

what I wanna do is I wanna try to find a Connecticut I like.

- Exactly.

Again, you just kind of mentioned something

that's very, very common today.

What's the perception of that people have of Maduro?

- Yeah, it's heavier, darker.

- It's a dark wrapper.

But there's a very specific taste profile

that people who say that are looking for,

which was built in lies,

is that the Maduro is the strongest cigar.

And actually that's not true. - No.

- Maduro means mature.

The more mature the tobacco is,

the more aged the tobacco is, the less ammonia you have,

the more that cigar will deliver nicotine,

but it's always buttery and smooth and rounded,

there's no sharpness. - Yeah.

- A old tobacco usually don't have any sharpness at all.

The flavors are very subtle, but they are bold,

What people perceive as Maduro today is a raw tobacco,

poorly fermented, with a dark wrapper.

- Right.

- That's what it is.

And I'm not criticizing because there's a market for it.

If you like that,

if you like a tobacco that was just aged for six months,

enjoy it. - Right.

- It's okay. - Yeah.

- I actually have, because of my job,

I have to go to hanging barns

and sometimes smoke a leaf that's completely raw

because I need to know how I'm gonna ferment that leaf

so I need to try that leaf before.

- [Rob] Wow.

- And I must say that I sometimes I enjoy smoking

one or two leaves that are little raw.

I can relate to people who like that.

- [Rob] Okay.

- But just don't perpetuate that lie or that perception

that a Maduro is actually, well, a super-aged tobacco.

It's not.

For the American market, it's not.

- Right.

- For Europeans, it's a little different.

When they get a Maduro, a Cuba Maduro,

they know that they're gonna get a buttery, rounded cigar.

But here for the US market, especially for certain regions,

they have this perception, which is,

it's not the right perception.

But anyways, like I told you,

I respect anyone who likes that type of cigar,

but just don't keep repeating that that is a Maduro.

- Right. - It's not. (chuckles)

- I kind of go unconventional.

A couple of things.

One, we're smoking this Fiat Lux,

and when I get down to like the last third,

especially at this point, if this cigar is still good,

boy, it's going high up on my list, which this is.

- Thank you, I appreciate it.

- Like it still has has the same flavors,

or maybe not the same, but the same complexity of flavors.

I can taste all of them.

It's not getting too hot.

That has to do with how you position the leaves, correct?

- Mm-hmm, yeah.

In this specific cigar, it's always Tiago,

we do the accordion- - Yeah.

- On the construction.

And I prefer to use mainly Viso to build the cigar.

I use two leaves of Seco, depends on the smaller vitola,

just one, but everything else is kind of Viso.

What happens with this cigar,

it's mainly the salivation that you get out of it.

It makes you salivate, it doesn't dry your mouth.

Because of that salivation, the more you salivate,

the more the pH of your saliva changes.

It becomes, your saliva becomes more and more alkaline.

- [Rob] Yeah.

- Because it's just like salt.

We were talking about salt before.

- [Rob] Right.

- That salivation will open your taste buds.

We need saliva in order to perceive flavor.

That's why, I don't know if that ever happened to you,

when you're gonna bite an apple and then you spit saliva,

or we're gonna eat something that you're craving for,

then you see your mouth watering-

- My dog does it every time I feed him.

- Exactly.

Our brains are made that way,

so in order for us to perceive flavor, we need to salivate.

But usually, smoke doesn't make you salivate.

- [Rob] No.

- But when you combine certain minerals, especially,

I just gave you an example of the Ometepe,

but like the Sumatra wrapper have a lot of salinity as well.

When we combine the salinity of the Sumatra wrapper

with a binder that has more magnesium,

like Jalapa for example, you get salivation no matter what

because this, by even touching your mouth,

immediately you start salivating a little more.

And the more you salivate,

progressively, there'll be transitions in a cigar,

not because the tobacco is different-

- Really? - In the cigar,

it's because you're salivating more.

And the more you salivate,

the more your taste buds will open

and you perceive that flavor differently.

- That's amazing,

because I remember a guy at the smoke shop,

he always had basically a spit cup.

And I was like, do you chew and smoke cigars?

And he said no.

He goes, I just salivate really like a lot, a lot

to the point where he kind of feels like he needs

to get some of that out of his mouth.

And I just thought that was interesting.

I was like, that's interesting

that every time you smoke a cigar,

you have this extra salivation,

and it sounds like it's natural.

- It is. - And it can be caused by-

- But there's two types of salivation though.

A lot of people who have liver issues

or eat something that's sour

and they're about to kind of throw up,

I know it sounds terrible recording this,

but so, when you go through that process,

you also salivate a lot.

There's a lot of ammonia in the cigar.

- [Rob] Yeah.

- That will make you a bad saliva

that you're gonna want to spit.

You don't wanna actually swallow.

The saliva I'm talking about is the one

that's almost like unconscious.

It's like you keep just kind of, as you're drinking water,

you basically drink your own saliva

because you're producing more.

And that's kind of

what makes you perceive flavors much, much better.

- [Rob] Yeah.

- And there's so many other factors, bro.

- Oh yeah.

- Like it's not just, it's not how much you salivate,

but it's also what you ate before.

- Right.

- It's what kind medications you're taking.

And that's another point too.

Like there's no, it's truly no right and wrong

about your preference of a cigar.

- Right.

- Because if you have,

I think it's 50 or 70% of the population,

has the H pylori bacteria in their stomach.

If you have that bacteria, the pH of your saliva

is different than anybody else,

so you'll perceive flavors different than anybody else.

If you are taking an antibiotic

for a certain type of infection,

that would definitely affect how you perceive-

- Yeah.

- Because if you treat antibiotics, with antibiotics,

food tastes different. - Oh yeah.

- When you're sick. - Yep.

- Same with anti-fungal medication too.

The same thing happens.

Or if you take an anti-depression medication,

that dries your mouth,

so you're gonna perceive the flavors different.

Everybody reacts differently- - Sure.

- To medications, to food,

and that will determine how that flavor in a cigar

is perceived as well.

It's not a simple science.

- No, no.

And in fact, because of your inspiration there

about acidity and other things

that you actually ended up giving to Nate,

we did a test with candy, Halloween candy,

and I put all the sour stuff in one bucket

and all the chocolatey stuff in another.

We preferred the sour stuff to pair with the cigar.

- There you go.

- Because of the acidity.

- [Luciano] Because it makes you salivate more.

- Because it makes you salivate more.

- Whenever it's sour, it makes you salivate.

Yeah. - It was amazing.

I was totally dreading that,

but then I found myself reaching for like sour gummies-

- Yeah.

- And like all other stuff and then being like,

wow, that totally changes the flavor of the cigar.

- Yeah.

Why dark chocolate tastes better

than milk chocolate with cigars?

Because in the dark chocolate, you have more salt

and the more salt you have in a chocolate,

the better you perceive flavors.

You wanna know something crazy too?

I think you'll like this.

I've always asked myself why when we blend a cigar,

and this was like my flavor memory from 2000s,

so I remember going to the Dominican and trying cigars

and they would taste one thing,

and I would bring those cigars over to Chicago

and smoke them and they're completely different.

- Totally.

- I always thought it was the airplane pressure,

it was the whatever, altitude, atmospheric pressure,

whatever it was.

I came to realize that actually the reason why

is because of the salinity that's in the air.

When you're next to the ocean,

you are inhaling a lot of salt all the time.

It goes to your lungs and goes to your esophagus,

your throat, your entire mouth, your nostril.

Everything is way more salinic now

because you are breathing- - Yeah, that's nice.

- Salt.

Anything that you smoke

when you have that amount of salinity in your mouth

will taste brighter,

especially if you have more magnesium or sweet notes

on the tobacco, they'll flourish,

they'll be way more present. - Sure.

- Then if I go to the heart of Texas in the winter,

of course there is less humidity in the air.

The flavor that cigar will be completely different.

Even where you are, even where you were smoking,

or if you ate before will determine-

- Right. - How the cigar tastes.

- Maybe we need to do salt licks

like they do for tequila before we smoke.

- (laughs) Yeah, that's a good idea.

- Put a little salt on there.

- I'll launch a brand like that.

- Yeah, yeah, exactly.

The salt cigar. - But listen,

also, the opposite's true.

I have, especially when you think of pairing,

I have cigars that I don't wanna

actually cause too much of salivation,

I wanna cause just a little bit,

especially if I, like I had this challenge

to pair one of our wines with a cigar that I'm making

that we will launch in the trade show.

And then, I could not add a lot of salinity to that cigar

or make you salivate too much.

Otherwise, the whole pairing would not work.

- Really?

- Sometimes you have to use other minerals

to create a contrast.

Because your brain understands

usually three types of pairing.

- [Rob] Okay.

- One is called the complementary pairing.

It's when two elements, when they are together,

they enhance each other.

It's like-

- Complement. - They complement.

That steak wouldn't taste the same

if it wasn't for that wine that you're having

with the steak, and that wine wouldn't taste the same

if it wasn't for the steak.

- Right.

- That's called a complementary pairing.

And then you have a antagonist pairing,

which is when you create a real contrast

to understand an element.

If it wasn't for this element,

I would never be able to perceive the second one.

- Right.

- Have you ever closed your eyes to listen to music

and then you can focus more in each instrument

so you can hear better.

That's why blind people,

they have their senses way more developed, the other sense.

- And echolocation- - Exactly.

- They can sense that sound.

- They can estimate a sound, they know the distance

based on how that sound came back to them.

- [Rob] Right.

- The same thing happens with our palate.

There are ways for you to drink a whiskey

that as soon as it touches your lips

will mute all your front palate.

You know that tingling you feel

on the tip of your tongue and your lips?

By doing that, you are enhancing your capacity

of perceived flavor in the upper part of your throat

and your back throat, just by muting your front palate.

Now, I want those notes not to be harsh,

to be pleasant, and I need to focus and concentrate

in those flavors that are perceived in the upper palate

and the back of the throat.

- Interesting. - Does that make sense?

- Yeah.

- The third one is called the ultra pairing,

which can be translated into synergy.

- [Rob] Okay.

- It's when two plus two equals 10.

Two elements, they form a third element.

- [Rob] Okay.

- That wouldn't exist if wasn't for this two elements

or three elements together, not only two.

That's what I like to call the ultra pairing.

Ultra is the Greek word that goes beyond just pairing.

There are some elements, not just in cigars, in food,

that when you merge them, you create a different element.

It's chemistry. - Right.

- Salivation, for example, salivation only occurs

if you have at least two components in your mouth.

Sodium and chlorine creates salt

and that makes you not just salivate,

but makes you retain more water into your mouth,

as you guys know

because the base of your product's basically salt.

- Yeah. - Salt and water and glycerin.

- No glycerin.

- No glycerin, just salt and water.

- Just salt, water, and xantham gum.

- There you go, and gum. - For suspending it.

- Yeah, that's right.

I'm sorry. - Glycerin doesn't harden.

- [Luciano] Yeah, glycerin's not good.

- Not in our world.

(laughing)

- No, but my point is,

so the ultra pairing is very interesting.

It could be something like pairing like cheese and wine.

- [Rob] Yeah.

- Cheese and wine is very kind of ultra,

like you don't create any antagonist between them,

but when you cover your mouth

with the protein of the cheese-

- Yep.

- That makes you perceive the flavor of the wine

in a very, very special way. - Yeah.

- And vice versa, because the wine

doesn't actually remove that coating.

- Right.

- [Luciano] I love this topic.

- I did a lot in my earlier life, when I drank,

I did a lot of beer and cheese pairings

because I used to live in Owatonna,

which is just north of there is Faribault,

and they had these caves that they used to keep cheese in

and they said that they kept one of the cheeses,

which was, I believe it was a Gouda, Jeff's Select,

and they kept it next to the blue cheese,

so the blue cheese spores would jump off

and create this rind on the outside of the Gouda

that literally tasted like mushrooms.

And it was so good. - Yeah.

- I wanted to eat just the rind.

And most people cut that off because it's hard,

but I was like, that's like, that's sacrilege right there,

that's like the best part of that cheese.

But it's obviously up to the person who's eating it

and how they wanna eat it.

But it's so cool to see those different chemistries

create that. - Yeah.

- From the spores jumping off.

- And I know this becomes

almost like a very kind of nerd conversation.

But there are situations, and they're very, very common,

where you just stumble into a very good blend

and you just don't know why. - Sure.

- You just don't know why.

And then you have to go after the explanation

and try to figure out, so why this worked,

but I never thought of this. - Sure.

- Which is very cool too,

like we're just kind of putting some tobaccos together,

trying different things. - Right.

- And then you get to a result you never expected.

- Do you have to keep a notebook

of all the different types of tobaccos and flavors you get?

Or are you pretty memory based?

- Yes and no.

When I stumble into something

that I know will become a product, then I do write it down.

But I have this weird thing that I memorize the flavors,

so I know exactly the kind of proportions and recipe

in my brain.

But I write it down, of course,

like when I stumble into something, I say, oh no, listen,

this can be something.

- Sure.

- Now go and write it down and usually create a name for it.

- Sure.

- It's not the name of the product.

I usually create a name to that blend

because I associate the name with that experience.

- Oh, okay. - Because of the synesthesia.

I have like a good example with the CHC,

the recent CHC we did for Crowned Heads.

- [Rob] Okay.

- When I created that blend, it was like,

we called it Sucio, which means dirty, or little dirty,

because the feelings I had with that brand

was not like a really, really clean smoke,

which actually uses a little bit of my signature.

I like to make things really rounded and-

- Right.

- And kind of buttery and pleasant.

- Yeah.

- But that was different, but it was a good different.

I named it Sucio, which is like little dirty.

(laughing)

And the Fiat Lux had a different name before.

- What was the Fiat Lux's name?

- The Fiat Lux was called Karma.

- Karma?

Oh. - It was called Karma.

- Good Karma?

- Good Karma. - Yeah, good.

Love it.

This is, I mean, everything you've said,

I hope people can take a little bit of that

and apply it to their smoking experience

because it really does need, you need to open your brain,

you need to open up your experience.

- Yeah. - And just enjoy.

And if you enjoy it, then it's worth investing in.

- Absolutely, man.

- Yeah. - And you have to be fun too.

- [Rob] Yeah.

- We all have this hard work to make sure people

have a good experience- - Right.

- And they can enjoy that nice Michelin-star meal.

- Yeah, right.

- Without having to dissect everything.

- That's just it.

I think that's where I get with my tasting.

I'm like, I don't need to dissect everything out of this.

I just know I enjoy it. - Yeah.

That's the point.

- And that's where I get to the point of like,

well, that's a box worthy cigar.

- [Luciano] Yeah.

- I could have a box of those, give it to anybody-

- Yeah.

- And I think they would enjoy it.

At least I would.

- 100%, my friend. - Yeah.

Luciano, thank you so much for sitting down with us,

telling a little bit about- - Thank you.

- Your story, giving us some insights

on how to enjoy cigars better.

And I don't think this will be the last Box Press

we have with Luciano.

Appreciate it.

- I'm looking forward for the next one.

Thank you very much.

- You're welcome. - Thanks for the invitation.

- That was another episode of Box Press.

Of course, to protect your cigars,

always, always put Boveda inside your humidor.

You can get it at a local retailer near you

or head over to bovedainc.com.