1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:04,000 I was thinking about the context for this, and I realized the 2 00:00:04,080 --> 00:00:07,680 perspective from cognitive science, from understanding how our brains work, 3 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:11,520 uh, cognitive science was an integrative, uh, way 4 00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:14,920 to start pulling together different people thinking about thinking— philosophers, 5 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:18,680 neuroscientists, uh, cognitive psychologists, anthropologists— 6 00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:22,480 more learning science emerged from that, similarly 7 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:26,200 trying to pull in instructional design and, and educational psychologists 8 00:00:26,200 --> 00:00:30,030 and cognitive researchers. And that perspective 9 00:00:30,430 --> 00:00:33,830 isn't, I think, well known and used enough. And yet it gives us 10 00:00:33,830 --> 00:00:37,470 insight that's really powerful like that, the properties of media. 11 00:00:37,950 --> 00:00:41,790 And so that's the broader perspective I'd like to share is that this is coming 12 00:00:41,790 --> 00:00:45,550 from a way of thinking and looking at the 13 00:00:45,550 --> 00:00:49,350 world that gives us really useful handles. And I found it extremely 14 00:00:49,350 --> 00:00:53,150 useful. I have the ability to give people insights that 15 00:00:53,150 --> 00:00:56,870 they wouldn't have gotten in other ways just because of that understanding how 16 00:00:56,870 --> 00:01:00,680 our brains work, which I think is, increasingly going to be important because that's 17 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:03,720 where things are going. We're going to find out what technology can do, what brains 18 00:01:03,720 --> 00:01:06,880 can do, and we need to understand that really well to figure out where we 19 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:08,840 fit in this continually evolving world. 20 00:01:10,680 --> 00:01:14,360 Good morning, good evening, good afternoon, wherever you are and wherever you're watching from. 21 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:18,040 We're revisiting an episode we recorded 2 years ago with Clark 22 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:21,560 Quinn. When we recorded this episode, AI video 23 00:01:21,560 --> 00:01:25,220 tools weren't creating content in seconds. Today you can 24 00:01:25,220 --> 00:01:28,980 generate a video with a prompt. You can clone your voice. You can 25 00:01:28,980 --> 00:01:32,580 build an entire training series without ever even turning on your 26 00:01:32,580 --> 00:01:36,220 camera. Pretty amazing. Maybe. But it also 27 00:01:36,220 --> 00:01:39,940 makes this conversation even more important. Just because you can 28 00:01:39,940 --> 00:01:43,380 generate video in seconds doesn't mean video is always the right 29 00:01:43,380 --> 00:01:47,100 medium. And I say that as someone who loves video. I 30 00:01:47,100 --> 00:01:50,650 work at a company that builds tools for video. I 31 00:01:50,650 --> 00:01:54,330 believe deeply in its power. Video connects, it 32 00:01:54,330 --> 00:01:57,770 teaches, it builds trust in ways few mediums can. 33 00:01:58,330 --> 00:02:02,010 But it's not the only tool in the toolbox. Screenshots 34 00:02:02,010 --> 00:02:05,650 matter, images matter, diagrams matter. Sometimes a 35 00:02:05,650 --> 00:02:09,130 static visual communicates something faster and more 36 00:02:09,130 --> 00:02:12,930 clearly than a 5-minute video ever could. And today, 37 00:02:12,930 --> 00:02:16,690 with short-form video dominating feeds with reels and shorts and constant 38 00:02:16,690 --> 00:02:20,280 motion everywhere, The question isn't just, should I use 39 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:23,960 video? It's what kind of media best supports learning? 40 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:27,760 And even more specifically, what kind of video best supports 41 00:02:27,760 --> 00:02:31,080 understanding? And that's why this conversation with Clark 42 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:34,720 Quinn feels even more relevant now than when we recorded 43 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:38,360 it. Clark challenges us to think beyond format and into 44 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:41,640 cognition, how our brains actually process information. 45 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:45,950 Static versus dynamic, concept versus context, 46 00:02:46,270 --> 00:02:49,910 diagram versus animation versus video. In a 47 00:02:49,910 --> 00:02:53,590 world where creating content has never been easier, choosing the 48 00:02:53,590 --> 00:02:57,150 right medium has never been more important. So 49 00:02:57,150 --> 00:03:00,750 hopefully you'll listen with that lens, not just how do I make more 50 00:03:00,750 --> 00:03:04,190 video, but how do I help someone understand better? 51 00:03:04,430 --> 00:03:08,190 With that said, here's our episode with Clark Quinn from 52 00:03:08,270 --> 00:03:12,020 February of 2024. Uh, Clark, I, I, we always like to start 53 00:03:12,020 --> 00:03:14,980 the show with a kind of the practical approach and you know, 54 00:03:15,860 --> 00:03:19,620 you obviously you're not necessarily a media creator. I'm sure you've created 55 00:03:19,620 --> 00:03:22,980 media in throughout your career, but as you think about from a learning 56 00:03:22,980 --> 00:03:26,820 perspective, what's, what's a tip you would give to folks out 57 00:03:26,820 --> 00:03:30,180 there who want to use video? They want to use it for helping people to 58 00:03:30,180 --> 00:03:32,740 learn. Is there a tip that you would give them to help them to be 59 00:03:32,820 --> 00:03:36,540 maybe more successful or, uh, maybe have that hit the mark a little bit 60 00:03:36,540 --> 00:03:39,650 more? I guess my 61 00:03:39,650 --> 00:03:43,330 perspective is don't use video 62 00:03:44,210 --> 00:03:47,930 for video's sake, for making it more compelling or 63 00:03:47,930 --> 00:03:51,730 more interesting. What you should be using video for 64 00:03:52,290 --> 00:03:56,130 is to convey dynamic stories. 65 00:03:58,370 --> 00:04:02,170 Um, too often we use video when we don't have to, and it's a 66 00:04:02,170 --> 00:04:05,910 high bandwidth and high production cost, uh, effort in many 67 00:04:05,910 --> 00:04:07,150 times, in many cases. 68 00:04:09,470 --> 00:04:13,270 So, I would like to reserve using video for 69 00:04:13,270 --> 00:04:17,070 when it makes the most sense, not as a panacea and end-all. 70 00:04:17,470 --> 00:04:21,149 We'll talk today about the specific ways in which certain 71 00:04:21,149 --> 00:04:24,910 different media most opportunely support 72 00:04:25,070 --> 00:04:28,830 certain types of learning outcomes and cognitive outcomes, 73 00:04:28,830 --> 00:04:32,090 and then we can dig into, you know, How can you swap them in and 74 00:04:32,090 --> 00:04:35,850 out for variety and a variety of other things? Well, I, I 75 00:04:35,850 --> 00:04:38,690 appreciate that as someone who, uh, you know, I use a— I make a lot 76 00:04:38,690 --> 00:04:42,050 of videos. I work for a company that promotes tools that you make videos. 77 00:04:42,690 --> 00:04:46,290 I, I appreciate the advice though, because I do think there's, there's this balance there, 78 00:04:46,530 --> 00:04:50,210 kind of time, cost, effort, and always, I, you 79 00:04:50,210 --> 00:04:53,850 always got to ask, is it the right medium to deliver the 80 00:04:53,850 --> 00:04:57,580 message? So I appreciate it. No worries. 81 00:04:59,340 --> 00:05:03,040 And it's just our brains have evolved to, uh, 82 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:06,740 collect certain types of information in certain ways and process it in certain 83 00:05:06,740 --> 00:05:09,740 ways. And we want to 84 00:05:09,980 --> 00:05:13,780 ideally match for that, particularly when we're, you know, trying to convey 85 00:05:13,780 --> 00:05:17,460 the most important message. There are, you know, video can 86 00:05:17,460 --> 00:05:20,780 capture us talking like I'm doing right now, and we can 87 00:05:20,780 --> 00:05:23,950 communicate thoughts and elegantly And, but 88 00:05:24,750 --> 00:05:27,790 too often we can overuse it. We can use it without 89 00:05:27,870 --> 00:05:31,470 controls. I just saw an example of this the other day where 90 00:05:31,630 --> 00:05:35,230 they were providing things and they didn't really give you pause and restart 91 00:05:35,230 --> 00:05:39,070 options. You could go back, play the whole thing, but 92 00:05:39,070 --> 00:05:42,790 it didn't automatically just say pause it because, you know, somebody's 93 00:05:42,790 --> 00:05:46,190 just come in the door or something. We need control over the media. 94 00:05:46,830 --> 00:05:50,660 But think about, Um, Ken Burns and the 95 00:05:50,660 --> 00:05:53,980 Civil War, uh, movie he made, 96 00:05:54,780 --> 00:05:58,540 it was a whole bunch of static images sequenced together. 97 00:05:59,420 --> 00:06:03,140 Those static images were what they had at the time, but they also communicated 98 00:06:03,140 --> 00:06:06,860 in powerful ways when he sequenced them together. We don't— we can 99 00:06:06,860 --> 00:06:10,260 communicate those stories in multiple different ways. We can use graphic 100 00:06:10,260 --> 00:06:13,940 novels, we can use narrative prose, we can use 101 00:06:13,940 --> 00:06:17,370 sequences of images linked together with audio or 102 00:06:17,370 --> 00:06:21,130 text, or we can use video. When does each make sense? 103 00:06:21,130 --> 00:06:24,890 That's the important issue for me. Yeah, 104 00:06:24,890 --> 00:06:28,450 I love that. And, you know, I mean, we, we often refer to Ken Burns, 105 00:06:28,450 --> 00:06:31,610 and he's such a master of doing those things, right? But those are not, 106 00:06:32,410 --> 00:06:36,210 uh, not outside the scope of anyone's capability. People can use imagery and they 107 00:06:36,210 --> 00:06:39,330 can tell stories, and that— so I love that. Um, and we could probably talk 108 00:06:39,330 --> 00:06:41,690 about just that alone for a long time, but I want to get into this 109 00:06:41,690 --> 00:06:45,530 idea of cognitive properties, because when you— when you— we— 110 00:06:45,530 --> 00:06:47,810 I connected with you and you said, hey, here's some things that we talk about 111 00:06:47,810 --> 00:06:51,510 this, and I'm No, um, but I think we need to do a 112 00:06:51,510 --> 00:06:55,270 little defining up front because my guess is most people listening to this 113 00:06:55,270 --> 00:06:58,870 are saying, cognitive properties? What 114 00:06:58,870 --> 00:07:02,470 does Clark mean? And so lead us down this 115 00:07:02,470 --> 00:07:05,990 path of like, what is this idea of cognitive properties 116 00:07:06,390 --> 00:07:10,110 and as it relates to, to media, right? I was 117 00:07:10,110 --> 00:07:13,510 actually thinking you were going to ask me to define the different types of media 118 00:07:13,670 --> 00:07:17,520 because people describe those differently. Oh yeah. So I actually 119 00:07:17,520 --> 00:07:20,520 want to start with that because it's at the front of my mind right now. 120 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:23,920 What— I have left of one. Um, when you think of, 121 00:07:25,030 --> 00:07:28,640 uh, diagrams, and that was one of the things we talked about discussing, 122 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:33,040 they communicate conceptual relationships via 123 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:36,760 spatial relationships. So when you say 124 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:40,120 up here is this and down here is this, and we have a linkage between 125 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:43,520 them, and the other things are linked this other way. 126 00:07:44,710 --> 00:07:48,510 We are communicating information. That's not video, that's a 127 00:07:48,510 --> 00:07:52,350 static image. And two things, um, cognitive properties I want 128 00:07:52,350 --> 00:07:55,590 to separate out now are static versus dynamic. 129 00:07:56,950 --> 00:08:00,791 So there's information that exists, you know, the relationship between, 130 00:08:03,980 --> 00:08:07,750 um, roots and, and branches. There is 131 00:08:07,750 --> 00:08:11,350 dynamics that the roots feed up and grow the branches, but the static 132 00:08:11,350 --> 00:08:14,970 relationship is that, you know, the roots are the nourishing from the 133 00:08:14,970 --> 00:08:18,770 groundwater, whereas the branches are exporting the leaves, which get energy 134 00:08:18,850 --> 00:08:22,290 from the sun. And together they put those together. 135 00:08:22,850 --> 00:08:26,290 Then we have the more dynamic story of an environment 136 00:08:26,610 --> 00:08:29,729 where, you know, the, the water cycle, uh, 137 00:08:29,729 --> 00:08:33,090 evaporation, condensation, precipitation, 138 00:08:33,570 --> 00:08:37,290 and whatever the word is for where it 139 00:08:37,290 --> 00:08:40,570 flows down the hill and gets up in the, in the body of water to 140 00:08:40,570 --> 00:08:43,610 evaporate again. We have that. Cycle. That's dynamic. 141 00:08:44,170 --> 00:08:47,410 And sometimes we need to communicate one, and sometimes we need to 142 00:08:47,410 --> 00:08:50,570 communicate the other. When do— so 143 00:08:50,970 --> 00:08:54,410 I like to distinguish between diagrams and 144 00:08:54,490 --> 00:08:57,930 animations. And when I say animation, many people think about, you know, 145 00:08:59,530 --> 00:09:02,970 cartoons moving around. I'm thinking specifically of animating a 146 00:09:02,970 --> 00:09:06,410 diagram. Mm-hmm. And then we have 147 00:09:06,410 --> 00:09:09,770 photos which capture context. And 148 00:09:09,770 --> 00:09:13,410 videos which capture dynamic context. Then we 149 00:09:13,410 --> 00:09:17,130 have text, which captures, uh, 150 00:09:17,130 --> 00:09:20,931 prose, you know, is a narrative, and then we have audio, which is also 151 00:09:20,931 --> 00:09:23,210 a narrative, and each of those are different. 152 00:09:25,210 --> 00:09:28,970 Diagrams and animations capture the conceptual. 153 00:09:29,850 --> 00:09:33,490 They're not tied to real context, they're an abstraction, 154 00:09:33,490 --> 00:09:37,220 whereas videos and images capture the actual 155 00:09:37,300 --> 00:09:41,060 context. So you can see behind me what my room looks 156 00:09:41,060 --> 00:09:44,180 like because it's actual context. 157 00:09:44,740 --> 00:09:48,420 We could just have an abstraction— I mean, a cartoon with a blank background 158 00:09:48,420 --> 00:09:51,979 or some arbitrary abstract background which could communicate something 159 00:09:51,979 --> 00:09:55,540 different. There, what I begin to talk about the 160 00:09:55,540 --> 00:09:59,060 cognitive properties, and when you want to communicate 161 00:09:59,060 --> 00:10:02,860 context, a photo or a video makes sense. 162 00:10:02,860 --> 00:10:06,220 But when you want to communicate a concept, you may be better off with a 163 00:10:06,220 --> 00:10:09,960 diagram or an animation. —and when you want to communicate 164 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:13,600 narrative, you may want to tell a story. You can— now, the 165 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:17,440 point I mentioned earlier about, you know, having still photos together become 166 00:10:18,160 --> 00:10:21,960 a, an, a story, um, video can be used 167 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:25,600 to communicate narratives and is— why do we watch movies and 168 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:29,960 TV series? But we're showing the context 169 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:33,040 as well, and we don't have to infer the concept. 170 00:10:33,540 --> 00:10:37,300 Unless we were laying it over. So, from 171 00:10:37,300 --> 00:10:41,100 a learning perspective, the cognitive properties we're talking about are: we 172 00:10:41,100 --> 00:10:44,300 communicating concept or context? Are we 173 00:10:44,300 --> 00:10:47,060 communicating it dynamically or statically? 174 00:10:47,460 --> 00:10:51,300 Relationships? Those are the things— the cognitive properties I'm 175 00:10:51,300 --> 00:10:54,980 talking about. And then we need to start thinking about which 176 00:10:54,980 --> 00:10:58,700 we need to communicate and what media makes the most sense. And then, of 177 00:10:58,700 --> 00:11:02,100 course, we then think about And then how do we mix it up so it's 178 00:11:02,100 --> 00:11:04,660 not completely dull and boring the whole time? 179 00:11:05,860 --> 00:11:09,700 Well, okay, so there's, there's a lot here and, and those are— 180 00:11:10,260 --> 00:11:13,780 I think we're, you know, you're doing a great job at simplifying what is 181 00:11:14,420 --> 00:11:17,860 a very complex kind of concept in terms of, 182 00:11:18,100 --> 00:11:21,900 you know, there's these properties, these media, this media, these types of media that are 183 00:11:21,900 --> 00:11:25,500 good at typically doing. So if I, if I'm at 184 00:11:25,500 --> 00:11:28,940 the, the, you know, I'm the instructional designer or I'm thinking about 185 00:11:28,940 --> 00:11:31,300 creating media for, for learning, 186 00:11:33,030 --> 00:11:36,070 I'm hearing what you're saying. And so now I'm thinking like, okay, 187 00:11:37,030 --> 00:11:40,750 what are maybe the questions or decisions that are going to 188 00:11:40,750 --> 00:11:44,510 help me down that path? Because like you said, I— if I'm always using a 189 00:11:44,510 --> 00:11:48,270 diagram— diagrams are great, they do a great job with the thing. But if I'm 190 00:11:48,270 --> 00:11:52,030 always trying to use a diagram, it feels like, like you said, the— you 191 00:11:52,030 --> 00:11:55,630 get fatigue. Like, I— we actually struggle with this in video, right? If 192 00:11:55,630 --> 00:11:59,350 I see— put a video up online and it looks the same as every other 193 00:11:59,350 --> 00:12:02,510 video, people say, I've already watched that video. Or, 194 00:12:02,910 --> 00:12:06,530 you know, so I'm curious from your perspective because there's the, the 195 00:12:06,530 --> 00:12:10,310 practical application here going from this like understanding of these cognitive 196 00:12:10,310 --> 00:12:14,030 properties to now I've gotta, I gotta make stuff. Like 197 00:12:14,990 --> 00:12:18,150 a lot of our, our, a lot of our roles is as instructional designers, particularly 198 00:12:18,150 --> 00:12:21,590 if you're doing, uh, really good in-depth design is say 199 00:12:21,590 --> 00:12:25,180 understanding those things, but then Now it's like, okay, what do I do with it? 200 00:12:25,580 --> 00:12:29,100 So what, what would you say? How do we translate this to— what, 201 00:12:29,100 --> 00:12:32,380 what can someone do now if they understand these things? 202 00:12:33,740 --> 00:12:37,580 Well, two different takes on that. 203 00:12:37,820 --> 00:12:41,540 So let's talk about the traditional instructional experience first. You 204 00:12:41,540 --> 00:12:45,260 should be presenting an underlying model. Cognitively, models 205 00:12:45,260 --> 00:12:49,020 give us good basis for, uh, comparing our performance to 206 00:12:49,020 --> 00:12:52,860 what the model predicts. It gives us a basis to make decisions You know, 207 00:12:52,860 --> 00:12:56,500 models help us explain what happened, uh, or predict 208 00:12:56,500 --> 00:12:59,780 what will happen. And then we can say, if I did X, the model says 209 00:12:59,780 --> 00:13:03,020 this would occur, and if I do Y, the model says that will occur, and 210 00:13:03,020 --> 00:13:06,580 this is better than that, so I'll do this. The model tells us that. 211 00:13:06,820 --> 00:13:10,140 So we want to communicate a model, and the diagram makes sense, but then we 212 00:13:10,140 --> 00:13:13,540 want to show how that plays out in context. We have evidence, 213 00:13:13,620 --> 00:13:17,220 research-based evidence from cognitive load theory and the like, that 214 00:13:17,220 --> 00:13:20,340 showing examples before we give people opportunity to practice 215 00:13:21,380 --> 00:13:25,060 makes it easier to then take it on yourself. You 216 00:13:25,220 --> 00:13:28,180 see and abstract a few examples and it gives you some guidance. 217 00:13:28,580 --> 00:13:32,420 Examples need context. They show how the model 218 00:13:32,420 --> 00:13:36,100 plays out in the real world. So suddenly we're talking about watching a video or 219 00:13:36,100 --> 00:13:39,940 seeing a static image or a sequence of images telling a story. 220 00:13:39,940 --> 00:13:43,620 Examples work best 'cause they really are stories that show, 221 00:13:43,860 --> 00:13:47,460 I faced this problem, I applied this model, and this was the outcome. 222 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:51,960 That's a story, that's a narrative, and we could use video 223 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:55,320 or, or st— sequence of static images to convey that. 224 00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:59,440 Then we need practice. We need to immerse the learner into 225 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:03,240 an environment and give them opportunity to make choices. Interactivity is something 226 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:06,600 I haven't mentioned in terms of the cognitive properties here. This is 227 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:10,400 more for the media instead of the interactivity, but then we need to allow the 228 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:13,640 learner to make choices and see the consequences of those. 229 00:14:14,300 --> 00:14:18,100 So suddenly we're switching again to— and we might— one 230 00:14:18,100 --> 00:14:21,740 of the things I didn't talk about in my elicitation of the types of media, 231 00:14:21,740 --> 00:14:24,540 I talked about, you know, video and our, 232 00:14:25,740 --> 00:14:29,380 you know, context with photos or video. And I talked about concepts with diagrams or 233 00:14:29,380 --> 00:14:33,220 animation. I talked about narrative with prose or audio, but I didn't 234 00:14:33,220 --> 00:14:36,940 talk about graphic novel formats and comics and those 235 00:14:36,940 --> 00:14:40,700 types of things where they're semi-conceptual and semi-contextually 236 00:14:41,660 --> 00:14:44,540 because they strip away some of the details of context. 237 00:14:46,190 --> 00:14:49,750 And yet provide enough that the learner can recognize the context, but that 238 00:14:49,750 --> 00:14:53,230 allows the opportunity to layer the concepts on top of it as well. 239 00:14:54,510 --> 00:14:58,150 And so we might mix this up. We might have a graphic novel 240 00:14:58,150 --> 00:15:01,430 format of an example and a video for an example, and then we put the 241 00:15:01,430 --> 00:15:05,270 learner, and it might be photorealistic, or we might start with a graphic novel. So 242 00:15:05,270 --> 00:15:08,870 we're mixing up the media to tell the story. Now, I said 243 00:15:08,870 --> 00:15:12,670 sort of two different pedagogies. One was sort of the traditional, you have a model, 244 00:15:12,670 --> 00:15:16,270 example, practice. The other one is you put the learner in the situation. 245 00:15:16,270 --> 00:15:19,870 This is more a problem-based type of approach where you specifically 246 00:15:19,870 --> 00:15:23,590 chosen an important problem and you provide scaffolding. You've simplified it in 247 00:15:23,590 --> 00:15:26,830 certain ways early on, and later on they take on more capability. 248 00:15:27,310 --> 00:15:30,910 But we might make resources available in the environment so you can 249 00:15:30,910 --> 00:15:34,310 pull up a diagram or you can pull up a little 250 00:15:34,310 --> 00:15:38,110 example. We might embed that in the story. So there— 251 00:15:38,110 --> 00:15:41,310 the environment in which you're performing in might have a library 252 00:15:41,310 --> 00:15:44,930 of, that has the diagrams, and it might have 253 00:15:45,250 --> 00:15:49,050 a history of case studies that the organization has done in the past that 254 00:15:49,050 --> 00:15:52,690 you pull up that are really examples. So we are mixing 255 00:15:52,690 --> 00:15:56,250 up media to meet different needs because for 256 00:15:56,250 --> 00:15:59,810 learning purposes, we have different cognitive roles at different points in the 257 00:16:00,050 --> 00:16:03,810 experience. So we avoid boredom in that sense, but 258 00:16:03,810 --> 00:16:07,290 then we should be thinking about how are we making sure we're communicating each at 259 00:16:07,290 --> 00:16:10,650 the right point in time. 260 00:16:11,530 --> 00:16:14,810 Wow. Uh, you know, what I'm thinking about is, uh, so I've noticed this trend 261 00:16:15,770 --> 00:16:18,930 and, and, you know, obviously we can talk about instructional designers, corporate learning all, all 262 00:16:18,930 --> 00:16:22,690 day long. I've noticed in, in the world of non-instructional 263 00:16:22,690 --> 00:16:26,480 designers, there's a lot of people out there making training content. 264 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:28,491 It's, you know, we would, we would probably balk at it a little bit what 265 00:16:28,491 --> 00:16:31,530 it is and, you know, but they're on YouTube, they're YouTube creators, they're 266 00:16:31,850 --> 00:16:34,980 teaching, uh, cooking or fix a car. 267 00:16:36,020 --> 00:16:39,700 But what I— in that first, particularly in that model, right, where you've got, uh, 268 00:16:39,700 --> 00:16:43,220 you know, you got— you're gonna put these things together, right? Model, example, 269 00:16:44,020 --> 00:16:47,780 practice. What I've noticed that they're really good at on YouTube, if they're doing 270 00:16:47,780 --> 00:16:50,420 well on the channel— so not everybody's good at it, but you know, the ones 271 00:16:50,420 --> 00:16:54,260 that are really good, they, they, they hook you with 272 00:16:54,420 --> 00:16:57,940 that. Here's the problem, right? They somehow draw you in, but 273 00:16:58,340 --> 00:17:01,780 then they, in a lot of ways, they're essentially doing this, right? They're modeling something. 274 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:05,800 They're Showing the example, but it's not a linear boom, boom, 275 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:10,360 boom. They— it's almost like a lot of loops because they're coming back to 276 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:14,360 the, like, the thing. Here's the problem. Here's, here's something you could do that 277 00:17:14,360 --> 00:17:16,840 then the next thing. Um, and I'm 278 00:17:18,680 --> 00:17:22,400 curious if you thought about how you might like, because obviously you could say 279 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:25,880 like, do these 3 things and that's all you ever do. Is it something that 280 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:29,720 we should be looking at if we're creators? So we're creating instructional 281 00:17:30,630 --> 00:17:34,230 content. To like build this into, you know, 282 00:17:34,230 --> 00:17:37,670 almost templates that we could then repurpose? Or is that 283 00:17:37,670 --> 00:17:40,870 too structured and it's like everything is going to just— because a lot of times 284 00:17:40,870 --> 00:17:44,270 it's like, well, it's so specific, it's going to just be different every time. But 285 00:17:44,270 --> 00:17:47,951 are there kind of general frameworks that you, you've built out or you think we 286 00:17:47,951 --> 00:17:50,310 could build out from, from these kind of this 287 00:17:51,830 --> 00:17:55,630 approach? Um, there are templates that, you know, there are 288 00:17:55,630 --> 00:17:59,190 structures for what good instructional design is. Saying, giving the model, then 289 00:17:59,190 --> 00:18:02,450 give examples, then give practices emerged from empirical 290 00:18:03,090 --> 00:18:06,370 research, and that serves as a good template. We want to avoid too 291 00:18:06,370 --> 00:18:09,730 much templatization. I remember a company, uh, many years 292 00:18:10,210 --> 00:18:13,570 ago was following David Merrill's dick tips, and they created this 293 00:18:13,570 --> 00:18:17,090 very rigorous system that you talked about the type of objective you had, and then 294 00:18:17,090 --> 00:18:19,850 it limited the types of things you could do all the way through. And it 295 00:18:19,850 --> 00:18:23,530 made really rigorously accurate instruction, and 296 00:18:23,530 --> 00:18:26,850 you'd rather pull your eyes out than actually go through 297 00:18:27,090 --> 00:18:29,970 it, or That was unpleasant. 298 00:18:30,850 --> 00:18:34,650 So, um, but you have to be careful because some of the— 299 00:18:34,650 --> 00:18:38,490 you know, I repaired my dryer with a video from YouTube. I have 300 00:18:38,490 --> 00:18:42,050 no idea what I had. It wasn't a learning experience, it was performance 301 00:18:42,450 --> 00:18:46,130 support. It led me through the steps and diagnostic and figure out what to 302 00:18:46,450 --> 00:18:50,170 do. And then— but I didn't— I haven't had to do that again for years 303 00:18:50,170 --> 00:18:53,530 and years. It would have been silly for me to learn anything from it. It 304 00:18:53,530 --> 00:18:56,680 was just perfectly propor— sport. And 305 00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:00,360 you pointed out a bit of a, a 306 00:19:00,360 --> 00:19:04,120 evolutionary selection process going on, that the good 307 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:07,920 videos are the ones that get viewpoints because there are people who naturally 308 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:11,361 draw upon some of these principles, um, and, you know, 309 00:19:11,361 --> 00:19:15,160 that iterative cycle you were talking about. They're showing this step and talking 310 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:18,600 about what leads to it, and in their narrative they talk a little bit about 311 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:22,080 the models that gave them the guidance. And Andrew 312 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:25,680 Schoenfeld at Berkeley did some of the greatest stuff of 313 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:29,320 talk— actually going down the way and talking about the thinking 314 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:32,720 behind each step, which experts often don't have 315 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,880 access to. Um, cognitively, the research at the University of Southern California's 316 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:40,720 Cognitive Technology Group by people like Richard Clark showed that 70% of what 317 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:44,240 experts do, they don't have conscious access to, which is really 318 00:19:44,240 --> 00:19:47,560 problematic for instructional design because you've got these experts doing things and they don't even 319 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:51,410 know what they're doing. They can tell you what they but they struggle to 320 00:19:51,410 --> 00:19:54,010 tell you what they do and you really have to work hard to pull it 321 00:19:54,010 --> 00:19:57,850 out. These people, somehow, the best YouTube 322 00:19:58,730 --> 00:20:02,370 providers are managing to articulate the underlying thinking and then showing 323 00:20:02,370 --> 00:20:05,850 how it plays out in context, step by step by step through 324 00:20:07,290 --> 00:20:11,130 a process. And you may learn something from it if it is something you 325 00:20:11,370 --> 00:20:14,730 do frequently and you go back and view it several times each time until you've 326 00:20:14,730 --> 00:20:17,580 sort of internalized it.. But we have to think 327 00:20:18,460 --> 00:20:21,980 a lot about what is the context, what is the need, how frequently— when 328 00:20:22,300 --> 00:20:25,980 you look at the principles of, you 329 00:20:26,140 --> 00:20:29,740 know, designing instruction, the criteria that determine how much practice you need and 330 00:20:29,740 --> 00:20:33,540 how much articulation tend to be, it's how inherently complex is it, how frequently 331 00:20:33,540 --> 00:20:37,220 you perform it in the real world, um, how important is it 332 00:20:37,220 --> 00:20:41,020 if, if you get it wrong. That will determine a lot of 333 00:20:41,020 --> 00:20:44,810 these factors that are sort of not 334 00:20:44,810 --> 00:20:48,650 articulated explicitly in these YouTube videos and the selection between them, but 335 00:20:48,650 --> 00:20:52,330 end up playing a big role in whether you're talking about performance sport 336 00:20:52,330 --> 00:20:56,170 or act— you know, are you happy leaving the information in the world? Did 337 00:20:56,170 --> 00:20:59,890 you absolutely have to put something in the head? And if so, what and 338 00:21:00,050 --> 00:21:03,790 how? Well, I, I appreciate that distinction because I think it is 339 00:21:03,790 --> 00:21:07,090 one that, uh, and it's not as nuanced, but it becomes kind of— is this 340 00:21:07,090 --> 00:21:10,900 learning? Is this performance support? And there is a lot of things that 341 00:21:10,980 --> 00:21:14,660 are just performance support, right? Just show me how to do it. Don't— I don't 342 00:21:14,660 --> 00:21:17,740 have to, I don't have to know it. I don't have to, you know, draw 343 00:21:17,740 --> 00:21:21,180 on that knowledge at a later point or build necessarily build 344 00:21:21,180 --> 00:21:24,980 from that, that framework to understand this other framework. Um, 345 00:21:25,060 --> 00:21:28,100 so I think I want to call that out because I do think that 346 00:21:28,740 --> 00:21:32,580 is a really insightful point. And I, and I, I know 347 00:21:32,660 --> 00:21:36,110 the difference, but like hearing you say it's like, oh yeah. Duh, a lot of 348 00:21:36,430 --> 00:21:40,190 this is not instruction. It's, it's really that. So, 349 00:21:40,190 --> 00:21:42,790 um, I'm, I'm curious because we've covered— I feel like we've covered a lot, but 350 00:21:42,790 --> 00:21:46,590 what else are we missing, or what else do we need to know to, again, 351 00:21:46,590 --> 00:21:50,190 to kind of keep us moving forward here with this understanding of the, 352 00:21:50,190 --> 00:21:53,910 you know, cognitive properties of, of, of using these things in 353 00:21:53,910 --> 00:21:57,470 a way, uh, because I, I do think we sometimes get into 354 00:21:58,190 --> 00:22:01,630 this cycle of it, particularly instructional design world where it's, you know, 355 00:22:01,980 --> 00:22:05,740 there's an academic field for a reason. And it's— academics are good, I think, 356 00:22:05,740 --> 00:22:09,340 and we need those, we need that work, that research. 357 00:22:10,060 --> 00:22:13,220 But oftentimes then, uh, you know, just in even my own experience, I'll be reading 358 00:22:13,220 --> 00:22:16,620 a paper and saying, okay, these are good things, and I— the application of it 359 00:22:17,020 --> 00:22:20,700 is like, well, I don't know, it doesn't maybe try to make the bridge 360 00:22:20,700 --> 00:22:24,220 the gap to like what I actually can do, or how would— how I do 361 00:22:24,220 --> 00:22:27,940 it, or even how my audience responds comparatively to 362 00:22:27,940 --> 00:22:30,740 the, the the study, you know, the body of the study of the people that 363 00:22:30,740 --> 00:22:34,580 went through it. So is there other things we need to understand 364 00:22:34,580 --> 00:22:38,180 as about cognitive properties? 365 00:22:38,900 --> 00:22:42,580 Yes. So I, um, suggest that, uh, really 366 00:22:43,460 --> 00:22:47,300 learning science is, is rocket science. So the brain is 367 00:22:47,300 --> 00:22:51,020 arguably the most complex thing in the known universe, and 368 00:22:51,020 --> 00:22:54,740 trying to systematically get changes in it by, you know, you know, sort 369 00:22:54,740 --> 00:22:58,510 of random perturbations is not the way to do it. We have The 370 00:22:58,510 --> 00:23:02,150 research you're pointing to, we have very good prescriptions in general 371 00:23:02,150 --> 00:23:05,750 that have teased out the importance of practice and the importance of 372 00:23:05,750 --> 00:23:09,550 deliberate practice and spacing of practice and a whole bunch of nuances. But 373 00:23:09,550 --> 00:23:13,230 putting it together for any specific circumstance that you're 374 00:23:15,390 --> 00:23:19,150 designing to support, there will— won't be one study that tells you how 375 00:23:19,150 --> 00:23:22,590 you should do that. What you're doing is putting 376 00:23:23,300 --> 00:23:27,060 together different aspects. Which is why, by the way, you're starting to see also 377 00:23:27,060 --> 00:23:30,820 a move towards more iterative approaches. Um, so 378 00:23:30,900 --> 00:23:34,740 you need to create your best first guess, but then you should test it 379 00:23:34,740 --> 00:23:38,180 and say, oh, this part's working, that part's not, let's tune it 380 00:23:38,340 --> 00:23:42,140 a little bit. Okay, it's working better, let's 381 00:23:42,140 --> 00:23:45,980 do it, you know, but fine-tuning this thing, look, it's doing 382 00:23:45,980 --> 00:23:49,700 it. And you look at Michael Allen's SAM, Successive Approximation 383 00:23:50,620 --> 00:23:53,260 Model, or the Megan Torrance's LAMA, 384 00:23:54,220 --> 00:23:57,820 lot like agile management approaches. They're 385 00:23:58,060 --> 00:24:01,420 moving to more create a first draft. Even David Merrill 386 00:24:02,140 --> 00:24:05,420 has moved from, uh, bone splay theory to ID2. Now his Pebble in a Pond 387 00:24:05,819 --> 00:24:09,180 is very much, you know, focus on the core practice first, 388 00:24:09,420 --> 00:24:12,460 get that right, to— testing and tuning, and then add 389 00:24:13,100 --> 00:24:16,700 other stuff around. So, you know, the point I'm trying to 390 00:24:16,700 --> 00:24:20,300 make is that research gives us good prescriptions. We need to apply it 391 00:24:20,300 --> 00:24:24,120 in a creative way. Focus on engagement as well without violating 392 00:24:24,120 --> 00:24:27,880 the principles, and then test it and tune it to see 393 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:31,680 what's happening. Um, because we're not like concrete, we don't 394 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:35,320 have totally predictable properties. Our brains can even change, you know, a little 395 00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:39,040 bit of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, right? Uh, when 396 00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:42,120 you're observing people doing things, it changes their understanding of what 397 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:46,600 they can do. Many people have created— built technology solutions and tested 398 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:49,360 it and found that the people go, oh, well, now that I can see this, 399 00:24:49,360 --> 00:24:52,080 I want you to also do this and get rid of that. I don't need 400 00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:55,380 that now that you can do It's like, whoa, this is 401 00:24:55,700 --> 00:24:58,820 a dynamic process. That's cool, but it does 402 00:24:59,860 --> 00:25:03,540 require paying attention. Yeah, I, I feel like the, the pushback 403 00:25:03,540 --> 00:25:07,300 that then comes— because I, I completely agree, and I can remember being 404 00:25:07,300 --> 00:25:11,100 in my master's program, you know, working a lot of theory, a 405 00:25:11,100 --> 00:25:14,940 lot of study of, of different models for learning and things like that. And of 406 00:25:14,940 --> 00:25:17,540 course, uh, you know, one of the— we had a journal we had to keep 407 00:25:17,620 --> 00:25:21,300 and we'd write ideas, and so Very— this great process, but I 408 00:25:21,300 --> 00:25:24,460 remember trying to create my own models, thinking, how am I gonna create my own 409 00:25:24,540 --> 00:25:27,660 models? You know, but I, I remember one thing that is, is common is that 410 00:25:27,660 --> 00:25:31,300 kind of that iteration, right? That there is, there 411 00:25:31,300 --> 00:25:34,619 is no real learning process without like getting better 412 00:25:34,619 --> 00:25:38,420 at developing without iteration. And I think I wanna draw back to the, the conversation 413 00:25:38,420 --> 00:25:41,580 with the creators as well, because I think that's where they get us. They're really 414 00:25:42,140 --> 00:25:45,650 good at this. They, they are testing stuff all the time. Whereas I think in 415 00:25:45,650 --> 00:25:49,490 a corporate setting particularly, or even maybe in an educational setting, 416 00:25:50,290 --> 00:25:53,090 it's really hard to do that. And I know just from my own experience, if 417 00:25:53,090 --> 00:25:56,810 I have to make a video or some kind of piece of media 418 00:25:56,810 --> 00:26:00,451 that's gonna go out, the, the, the cycle time for me to 419 00:26:00,690 --> 00:26:04,450 come back to iterate on that is probably 420 00:26:05,170 --> 00:26:07,890 not very quick. It might be a year, it might be 2 421 00:26:09,010 --> 00:26:12,750 years. And so, you know, from a practicality standpoint, What advice would 422 00:26:12,750 --> 00:26:16,150 you give to folks who are saying like, yeah, I love this idea of iterating, 423 00:26:16,150 --> 00:26:19,790 but I can't iterate that fast because all— there's, 424 00:26:19,790 --> 00:26:23,630 you know, 400 courses that they want. There's these pressures, that 425 00:26:23,630 --> 00:26:27,190 pressure, you know, it's just the reality of, of the work is that these 426 00:26:27,430 --> 00:26:31,230 things take time, cost money, things like that. So I'm not expecting 427 00:26:31,230 --> 00:26:34,510 like for you to have a silver bullet because I don't think there is one, 428 00:26:34,510 --> 00:26:36,870 but I'm curious, what, what advice do you give to folks like 429 00:26:38,370 --> 00:26:42,130 in that situation? I, I give a varied forms of 430 00:26:42,130 --> 00:26:45,930 advice. The, the problem is, is we put ourselves in this position or allowed 431 00:26:45,930 --> 00:26:49,490 ourselves to be put in this position where this expectation where if 432 00:26:49,490 --> 00:26:52,970 we give you PowerPoints and PDFs, you can pop it in this program and turn 433 00:26:52,970 --> 00:26:56,730 it out on the web with a quiz and we're done. They have 434 00:26:56,730 --> 00:27:00,570 unrealistic expectations of what learning is. They have unrealistic expectations of what the 435 00:27:00,570 --> 00:27:04,340 process needs to be. And they have unrealistic expectations of what 436 00:27:04,890 --> 00:27:08,170 learning can do. If we give people information, they'll change their behavior and 437 00:27:08,650 --> 00:27:11,890 we're done, right? Which empirically isn't true. 438 00:27:12,250 --> 00:27:15,890 We're not formological beings. Otherwise, if we get— got new information, we change our 439 00:27:15,890 --> 00:27:19,570 behavior, but we don't. It takes practice. It takes a lot of development. 440 00:27:19,570 --> 00:27:22,810 It takes getting rid of old things. We don't unlearn them. We 441 00:27:23,690 --> 00:27:27,130 learn over them. Uh, sorry, can't resist addressing a myth along 442 00:27:27,770 --> 00:27:28,890 the way, but 443 00:27:31,700 --> 00:27:35,340 we need to Uh, change the perception, and that's going to 444 00:27:35,340 --> 00:27:38,980 be hard. So I've told people, you know, do a little 445 00:27:38,980 --> 00:27:42,820 bit of— it's easier to get forgiveness than permission. 446 00:27:42,820 --> 00:27:46,500 Focus most on making more meaningful practice. Just make 447 00:27:46,500 --> 00:27:49,620 a better written multiple choice question that's 448 00:27:50,180 --> 00:27:53,740 just a scenario, mini scenario, where there's a situation they 449 00:27:53,740 --> 00:27:57,460 have to make decisions instead of asking them to respond 450 00:27:57,460 --> 00:28:00,500 to pull out new information. We actually 451 00:28:01,380 --> 00:28:05,220 have evidence that, um, just pulling out information doesn't lead to behavior, but 452 00:28:05,220 --> 00:28:09,020 actually making decisions. You don't even need— there was always this belief you needed 453 00:28:09,020 --> 00:28:12,860 to make sure you knew the information before you applied it. It turns 454 00:28:12,860 --> 00:28:16,700 out that requiring people just to make the decisions requires them to pull that 455 00:28:16,700 --> 00:28:20,340 information out of memory and supports the learning as well. So you only need 456 00:28:20,900 --> 00:28:24,280 the high-level questions. So it's, it's a dual 457 00:28:24,360 --> 00:28:28,080 our, our multiple front attack. We need to change people's 458 00:28:28,080 --> 00:28:31,680 expectations, help them understand what learning is better, why we need to put less in 459 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:35,160 the head and more in the world when we can. That's a much more effective 460 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:37,080 solution. And we need 461 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:42,000 to be subversively, um, creating, uh, learning that's more 462 00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:45,800 effective within the constraints we work in, but also start 463 00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:49,520 measuring and showing that by making these changes, we're making a bigger impact. I 464 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:53,320 know we resist evaluation a 465 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:56,280 lot, and yet it's going to be the key towards 466 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:01,120 moving ourselves forwards. Well, I, I've got a quote for my, for my day: less 467 00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:04,680 in the head, more in the world. I love that. That is, 468 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:08,920 uh, that is— that's, that's, that's a great statement. So, uh, no, 469 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:12,480 thank you for that advice. And I think that, uh, what I 470 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:15,840 think we'll, we're gonna— we'll end our formal conversation on that. I want to get 471 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:18,530 to speed round here in a second, but I just want to say that I 472 00:29:18,530 --> 00:29:21,850 love that, right? That there's this process that we've got it, we've got to just— 473 00:29:21,850 --> 00:29:25,490 you got to do it, ask for forgiveness and otherwise we'll never move forward and 474 00:29:25,490 --> 00:29:29,050 we keep— we'll keep delivering the same things. And I, I love that advice because 475 00:29:29,050 --> 00:29:32,610 I think it applies to this conversation. I think it applies to a lot of 476 00:29:32,690 --> 00:29:36,290 conversations I have around video and what's true about like how 477 00:29:36,290 --> 00:29:40,130 people are making video, what types of videos they're making. So, uh, Clark, thank 478 00:29:40,770 --> 00:29:43,740 you for that good, good piece of advice. 479 00:29:44,780 --> 00:29:48,220 I, Appreciate it. No worries. Okay, so we're gonna, we're gonna jump into speed round 480 00:29:48,220 --> 00:29:51,500 questions. If you're new to the show, these are quick, uh, 481 00:29:51,820 --> 00:29:55,420 fast answers to questions that we decide by rolling a dice. So we're gonna play 482 00:29:55,420 --> 00:29:56,860 our stinger and we'll see you in 483 00:30:01,580 --> 00:30:05,260 just a second. All right, Clark, here we go. We're gonna bring up our dice 484 00:30:05,260 --> 00:30:08,220 cam because that's right, we have a dice cam and we're gonna roll for— we 485 00:30:08,580 --> 00:30:12,430 got a 12-sided die, 12 different questions. And the first 486 00:30:12,430 --> 00:30:16,270 question is number 7. So here we go. Question 487 00:30:16,270 --> 00:30:20,110 number 7: What's a hobby or interest you've always wanted to pursue but haven't 488 00:30:20,110 --> 00:30:23,790 had a chance to as of yet? 489 00:30:25,070 --> 00:30:28,350 Oh my goodness. Um, you have so much free time with all the things 490 00:30:29,470 --> 00:30:32,830 that you're doing. Hey, um, hobby I've always wanted to do but 491 00:30:33,150 --> 00:30:34,590 haven't had to— I don't know, 492 00:30:36,180 --> 00:30:39,980 it might be, um, Uh, paddleboarding. Oh. Because I'm kind of old to 493 00:30:39,980 --> 00:30:43,620 jump up on a surfboard anymore. Haven't done that in a while. And I'm thinking 494 00:30:43,620 --> 00:30:46,820 maybe moving to a paddleboard would be a good 495 00:30:47,300 --> 00:30:50,540 way to keep the ability to go out in the ocean and ride without having 496 00:30:50,540 --> 00:30:53,980 to paddle and jump to my legs anymore. But I haven't had a chance to 497 00:30:53,980 --> 00:30:57,740 really give that a go. Yeah, that's— it sounds super fun. Got a 498 00:30:57,740 --> 00:31:01,580 friend that does it on Lake Michigan and she, she absolutely loves it. She'll 499 00:31:01,580 --> 00:31:05,320 go out though sometimes. She actually tries to surf in Lake Michigan. Last time I 500 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:07,920 knew it was like October, November, and 501 00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:12,920 it was cold. So— very cold. But they do get some waves there. So they 502 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:16,400 absolutely do. So, all right, let's go back to our dice cam. Here 503 00:31:16,790 --> 00:31:20,359 we go. Second, second roll. And the dot is at the bottom, so we know 504 00:31:20,359 --> 00:31:24,090 that's a 6. I'm teaching people dice— what it means, how to read the dice. 505 00:31:24,090 --> 00:31:27,680 So number 6, uh, share a piece of advice 506 00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,640 that you've received that has had a lasting 507 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:35,640 impact on you. I'm impervious to advice. 508 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:44,080 I just do it. Uh, I guess it's to— 509 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:46,840 I try really hard at this and I'm not good enough at this, but this 510 00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:50,560 is, I believe, really important and lasting advice 511 00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:54,280 is to talk less, listen more, ask 512 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:56,360 more questions. Sure, I care about 513 00:31:57,810 --> 00:32:01,010 learning. I just sometimes get so tied up in my head that I forget to 514 00:32:01,010 --> 00:32:04,530 stop and go, wait, let's check the context. So that would be my— 515 00:32:04,530 --> 00:32:08,370 the advice that's persisted with me, although it's more a case of do as 516 00:32:08,370 --> 00:32:12,171 I say, not as I do. I love it. It's another, it's 517 00:32:12,171 --> 00:32:15,970 another great, great piece of advice because it is easy, especially 518 00:32:15,970 --> 00:32:19,810 when you're— your expertise is in an area, it's easy to, 519 00:32:19,810 --> 00:32:22,610 to run. All right, let's do one more here. So 520 00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:27,120 dice towers up. And we're going to go to question 4. So your last 521 00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:31,160 speed round question. Ooh, this is a fun one. What's a 522 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:34,480 guilty pleasure song or movie that you secretly 523 00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:38,440 love? Is there something that you, you love 524 00:32:38,719 --> 00:32:42,360 music-wise or movie-wise that maybe we wouldn't think about? Oh, 525 00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:46,080 movie— rennity. I love the TV show Firefly. It was a 526 00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:49,880 mashup of West and sci-fi, and the movie is one of 527 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:52,960 the ones I keep on my iPad to watch if I have a long flight, 528 00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:56,740 which I haven't had in a long time. And now they have movies Sprout's easily 529 00:32:56,740 --> 00:33:00,500 available on planes, but it's just, to me, 530 00:33:00,500 --> 00:33:04,260 fun. Uh, it's not high cinema, um, but I love the 531 00:33:04,260 --> 00:33:07,860 message. I love the story. I love the, the humor. 532 00:33:07,860 --> 00:33:11,340 I just— it's fun. It's my guilty pleasure. Perfect. I love 533 00:33:11,340 --> 00:33:15,180 that answer. Great answer. Well, Clark, it's always a pleasure to 534 00:33:15,900 --> 00:33:19,660 talk with you and, and, and learn from you. I mean, I've, I've 535 00:33:19,660 --> 00:33:22,780 enjoyed many, many sessions sitting in your session, just picking up tidbits 536 00:33:23,380 --> 00:33:27,220 and ideas and being— having my own concepts challenged. So if 537 00:33:27,220 --> 00:33:30,500 someone else wants to learn from you, connect with you, where should they look? Where— 538 00:33:30,500 --> 00:33:33,620 what would you point us to? Um, I'll, uh, 539 00:33:33,620 --> 00:33:37,420 point you to quinnovation.com, which is fortunately under my name there 540 00:33:37,420 --> 00:33:41,220 on the— in the video. Um, and I think 541 00:33:41,220 --> 00:33:44,660 out loud, as you mentioned, at learnlets.com. That's 542 00:33:45,060 --> 00:33:48,460 my blog. And, um, I try and— I've now pretty 543 00:33:48,460 --> 00:33:51,930 much devolved to posting once a week Tuesdays, uh, 544 00:33:52,010 --> 00:33:55,170 there. And it's sort of my random thoughts, but it tends to be what I'm 545 00:33:55,170 --> 00:33:58,570 involved in, what it's going— and sometimes it's more theoretical and 546 00:33:58,570 --> 00:34:02,290 sometimes it's more pragmatic. But, um, those are the two 547 00:34:02,290 --> 00:34:05,770 places that are best track me. I'm on LinkedIn as 548 00:34:06,170 --> 00:34:09,930 well, um, so that I'm somewhat active there 549 00:34:09,930 --> 00:34:13,690 in multiple forms of my activities. Perfect. 550 00:34:13,690 --> 00:34:17,330 I definitely recommend people go out and follow you, find you, read your stuff. It's 551 00:34:17,330 --> 00:34:21,070 always good. As we wrap up today's show, we always ask our guests Clark for 552 00:34:21,070 --> 00:34:23,630 our fi— their final take. So Clark Quinn, what's 553 00:34:24,670 --> 00:34:28,310 your final take? My final take is I was thinking about the context for 554 00:34:28,310 --> 00:34:32,150 this and I realized the perspective from 555 00:34:32,150 --> 00:34:35,630 cognitive science, from understanding how our brains work, uh, cognitive science 556 00:34:37,070 --> 00:34:40,830 was an integrative, uh, way to start pulling together different people thinking 557 00:34:40,830 --> 00:34:44,550 about thinking— philosophers, neuroscientists, uh, 558 00:34:44,550 --> 00:34:47,969 cognitive psychologists, anthropologists— more Learning science 559 00:34:47,969 --> 00:34:51,329 emerged from that, similarly trying to pull in instructional design 560 00:34:51,329 --> 00:34:55,029 and, and educational psychologists and 561 00:34:55,029 --> 00:34:58,569 cognitive researchers. And that perspective isn't, I think, well 562 00:34:58,569 --> 00:35:02,369 known and used enough, and yet it gives us insight that's really powerful, 563 00:35:02,369 --> 00:35:06,209 like that— the properties of media. And so that's the 564 00:35:06,209 --> 00:35:09,489 broader perspective I'd like to share, is that this is 565 00:35:09,809 --> 00:35:13,249 coming from a way of thinking and looking at the world that gives 566 00:35:13,329 --> 00:35:16,769 us really useful handles. And I found it extremely useful. I have 567 00:35:17,150 --> 00:35:20,830 the ability to give people insights that they wouldn't have gotten in 568 00:35:20,830 --> 00:35:24,470 other ways just because of that understanding how our brains work, which 569 00:35:24,470 --> 00:35:27,990 I think is increasingly going to be important because that's where things are going. We're 570 00:35:27,990 --> 00:35:31,070 going to find out what technology can do, what brains can do, and we need 571 00:35:31,070 --> 00:35:34,830 to understand that really well to figure out where we fit in this 572 00:35:36,590 --> 00:35:40,150 continually evolving world. Love it, and excited to see what we continue to 573 00:35:40,150 --> 00:35:43,830 learn because the brain, like I said, is— it is more complex 574 00:35:43,830 --> 00:35:47,590 than rocket science, I'm pretty sure. But, uh, It's good stuff. So Clark, thank you 575 00:35:47,590 --> 00:35:51,390 again for joining me on the Visual Lounge. A pleasure, Matt. 576 00:35:51,390 --> 00:35:54,950 Thanks for having me. Absolutely. All right, everybody, you heard it. 577 00:35:54,950 --> 00:35:58,550 Clark drops new content on Tuesdays. You can go read and 578 00:35:58,550 --> 00:36:01,749 learn, become a better creator of 579 00:36:01,749 --> 00:36:05,510 instruction, understand these processes so that you can develop training that has 580 00:36:05,510 --> 00:36:08,830 better impact. You can create a better message. If you're not an instructional designer, you're 581 00:36:08,830 --> 00:36:12,420 saying, oh my gosh, there's so much out there. Absolutely. There's— there's people who've 582 00:36:12,420 --> 00:36:15,380 learned about this and you can apply it to your stuff too. So with that 583 00:36:15,380 --> 00:36:18,180 said, you know, we love it if you like or subscribe to the show. Of 584 00:36:18,260 --> 00:36:20,900 course you can leave comments and reviews that helps us to know what we can 585 00:36:20,900 --> 00:36:24,540 do better. And if you've got suggestions, you can email us, got an email, 586 00:36:25,982 --> 00:36:29,820 old school, thevisuallounge@techsmith.com. We're also now on TikTok, which is crazy. So 587 00:36:29,820 --> 00:36:31,980 you can see some of the great quotes if you just want to follow us 588 00:36:31,980 --> 00:36:35,780 over there as well, because we'll take these— this shows, get some of 589 00:36:35,780 --> 00:36:38,460 the best quotes, put them up there. Uh, makes it easy to stay in touch 590 00:36:38,460 --> 00:36:42,180 if you don't wanna watch all the entire show. With that said though, we 591 00:36:42,180 --> 00:36:45,060 hope that you take the things that you're learning and apply it to your lives, 592 00:36:45,060 --> 00:36:48,580 apply it to your practice, get better at what you're doing, and take some 593 00:36:48,580 --> 00:36:51,050 time to level up every single day. Thanks everybody.