All right, here we are.

I beg your pardon, says Ghislaine Maxwell or Ghislaine, whatever her name is.

We're gonna talk about the president's pardon power and what's going on with Maxwell and whether she's gonna testify or not testify and what's right, what's wrong, what's true, what's not.

We're gonna break it down like we always do.

First of all, the presidential pardon power.

Article two, section two, clause one.

It says the president shall be the commander in chief, and it basically outlines his pardon pardon power.

And people screw this up because there's limits to this.

There are limits to this.

I mean, there's stated limits, like the president can't pardon for things like impeachment, but the president can pardon for federal crimes.

Now, what does that mean when I say federal crimes charged in a federal.

Courthouse, not in a state courthouse.

State crimes.

All right, so first and foremost, I.

Back when at the end of every president's term, whether it's Biden, whether it's Obama, whether it's Trump 1, whether it's Bush, whether it's Bush 2, or Clinton or ever, like, the pardons come out and you look at this list like what the.

All I can say is I would wanna know who's paying who, what money, and what backs are getting scratched.

I always imagine it's like last minute, they're in just the White House, just like scribbling, like Biden.

There's all this controversy about whether he was using the secret pen, the auto pen, to pardon, and whether those are actually good.

But there were some people pardoned.

Like, you see these things at the end, like they.

And I don't care what side you're on, you can play politics with me if you want.

But look at the list of presidents who are of the various presidents on both sides pardoning people.

And it's perplexing.

Yeah.

Until you think, well, somebody's paying somebody.

Maybe.

Maybe.

I don't know.

Anyway.

But what the president cannot do is pardon a state prisoner.

Your local, Maybe your state governor can do that.

Yeah.

But the president can't.

And that's important for reasons we'll get to.

The other thing that's important to note is that a witness or a defendant or a prisoner, rather, whoever's been convicted, does not have to accept the pardon.

So it's sort of like in law school, they teach you what a gift is.

Yes.

Where you have.

You have to have a donative intent and you have to accept.

Yeah.

Right.

So somebody has to I have to intend to give you a gift, and you have to accept it.

So you.

You can reject a gift.

And it's sort of interesting because it goes way back.

We found this old case.

It's Burdick v. United States in 1915.

For the scholars, we'll go back to 1833, the case of United States versus Wilson.

John Marshall wrote for the court that a pardon is a private act of grace, a deed meaning it's a gift.

Then, almost a century later, in Burdick, B U R, D I, C, K versus United States, the court confirmed that a pardon may be refused, at least where other constitutional rights are at stake.

And I'm not going to dig into the details of it, but the point.

There are reasons, like maybe people don't want to accept a pardon.

And then you would think, well, what circumstances would that be?

Sort of like the Ghislaine Maxwell situation.

So, Troy, you've been.

You're in.

You're either under indictment or been convicted or you're facing charges.

And I want you to be a witness against your brother.

I plead the Fifth.

Yeah.

I'm going to pardon you.

Then you have no more worries, my friend.

I absolve you of all responsibility.

So now, why does that matter?

You tell me.

Because now I've lost this.

The whole reason of pleading the Fifth is to not incriminate yourself.

But now I can't incriminate myself, so I've just kind of lost my Fifth Amendment right on this specific scenario because you've pardoned me for it.

So now I'm sweating because my brother.

I have to talk about my brother.

However, I'm going to look at you and say no, and I want your.

Pardon so you no longer have a Fifth Amendment.

Now there's another thing we'll get to called immunity, but that's a different story.

So you say, look, I don't want your.

Take your damn pardon and shove it up your backside.

I'm not testifying or whatever.

So Maxwell is doing sort of the opposite.

She's playing some games here.

Congress wants her to come in and talk about her.

Her relationship with Epstein, for good reason.

I would love to know everything she wouldn't.

You love to be a fly on the wall inside that screwed up brain of hers.

And what do you know?

Who's on the list, who was at the island, who was doing what.

Yeah, everybody wants to.

I don't care who you are.

This is.

I mean, this is intrigue at its highest.

It's been like the last 10 years, has been like the craziest stuff ever.

We all want to know, and for good reason.

I'm making light of it, but I'm not making light of the importance of what's going on with this.

And Maxwell seems to be like the last bastion of knowledge on this.

I believe, though, she has appealed her case on some level, maybe even just the sentence up to the circuit courts of appeal.

That gives her.

So her case isn't done.

That gives her potentially more reason to fear incrimination as.

And not only that, even if her case weren't done.

So, look, just because your case is done, if you still have an appellate remedy available, your Fifth Amendment still applies, because in theory, the appellate court could send the conviction back and there could be more proceedings and they could use your statements against you.

You have a Fifth Amendment right.

What she's saying, look, if you absolve me of all criminal responsibility, if Trump were to pardon me, then I'll come tell you everything I know.

I don't know if I believe that, but it's an interesting move.

It's like that's the Queen's gambit, right?

So she's saying, look, it's very fascinating because what she's done, whether wittingly or unwittingly, is she's like saying, all right, Trump, pardoner, and what do you do if you're the president?

You can't pardon that person.

No, you can't.

But then also, everybody wants.

I mean, you can, but you don't want to.

But then everybody also wants the truth.

What are you hiding, Mr. President?

What are you hiding for not pardoning Maxwell?

Look, I don't think Trump's going to pardon Maxwell, and nor do I think he should pardon Maxwell.

But even then, I don't think that necessarily ends a debate, because at where we started, the presidential pardon power only applies to federal crimes.

Raping kids and helping somebody rape kids, abducting kids and.

Or helping somebody abduct kids, trafficking kids or minors or helping somebody do that.

These are also state crimes.

And if Maxwell is, if I'm representing Maxwell, we can talk about whether that would be a virtuous act or not.

But if she came to me and said, I need help, can you represent me, provide me legal advice?

As an experienced criminal defense lawyer, I would say, look, you can get a pardon all you want, but that's not going to stop Ohio or any other state, New York, particularly here and in Florida, there was a lot of conduct that's not going to stop some of those other states potentially from indicting.

You for the same stuff on the state level?

Yeah, I was thinking about the old switcheroo where you partner and the states come in.

But I was also trying to figure out what's the venue.

Well, New York, they lived in New York.

And if there's conduct that occurred in New York, then they got venue.

Okay, that's what I was worried about.

Was that we know at least something happened in Florida.

And again, those things often have no statutes of limitations.

If it's rape of a child, most states have sort of eliminated any worry about that of a statute of limitations.

So those are all viable crimes.

But we would have to really, really pick it apart and see, look, is there some state exposure you have because you can get what you want and still end up worse even?

A lot of times it's state stuff.

You get convicted of that crap in state.

A lot of times it's mandatory.

You're going to prison for life.

And I would have to be careful.

So Maxwell could be saying just sort of tongue in cheek, pardon me and I'll talk, but doesn't mean she's not also facing potential liability at the state court level.

And there that would be almost impossible.

I don't want to say impossible.

It'd be difficult to head each one of those off and go to each governor and say, look, give me a pardon.

Let's talk about immunity.

A grant of immunity is a whole different game, you know.

So I have.

We did another episode, we talked about grand juries, and I have a client who doesn't want to testify.

And because he's involved in a drug trafficking ring or whatever, then what happens is the government goes and gets an immunity grant.

So.

Or the AUSA says, I'm going to give you an immunity agreement.

And then they go right down to a judge, have the judge sign it and they hand it to me and say, look, your client now has immunity.

And I say, well, I'm not going to testify because of state court problems.

Yeah, we talked to them too, that he has immunity down in Franklin county as well.

You might lose your ability to refuse to testify.

Now, can they force you to open your mouth and talk?

No, but they can put you in jail and hold you in contempt and they will.

So why don't we just do that?

Why don't we do that with Maxwell?

Yeah, well, who wants to give her immunity?

I mean, look, Maxwell committed crimes.

Yeah, but she, I mean, she can't get new charges now.

Right.

If we give her immunity.

So look, if she really wanted to play this out.

And we really wanted to hear what she had to say.

The president could pardon her because she's already convicted.

The president would have to partner there.

And then she could try to negotiate immunity agreements on any other further conduct from.

From anybody in any state or locality that might have the ability to prosecute her for something.

And then you might be able to force her to testify.

Ain't ever gonna happen.

It's my prediction anyway.

But again, we take this sort of interesting.

I don't even call this political, but newsworthy event and use it as a jumping off point to talk about how all this stuff really works behind the scenes.

And look, it may play out.

Maybe.

Maybe she gets a pardon.

I doubt it.

But I don't think they can make her talk without that.

And if she doesn't want to talk beyond that because she's worried about state court exposure, her lawyers would be telling her to take the Fifth.

So you got questions, comments about it, love to hear them.

Go to LawyerTalkPodcast.com and you can submit a question there or leave it in the socials.

We'll be happy to address it.