How Not To Suck At Divorce (00:00)
Don't hate me, but if you're referring to your ex as a narcissist, that is going to fuck you more than it's gonna help you. Do I have your attention?
How Not To Suck At Divorce (00:10)
If you're going through a divorce or you're thinking about going through a divorce, then this is the podcast that you've been waiting for. Hosted by Morgan Stogsdill, the head of family law at the largest family law firm in the country, and comedian Andrea
we are gonna help you avoid
biggest divorce mistakes with our expert guidance, along with the laughter and levity
you need to get through this process. So let's go.
This is How Not to Suck at Divorce.
Morgan Stogsdill (00:41)
Okay, so listen, if you have spent more than five minutes on TikTok, Instagram, Reddit, you've probably heard this phrase, my co-parent is a narcissist. now listen, while we completely understand why that label feels validating, today,
We're talking about why adopting that narrative can actually hurt you in your case emotionally and legally.
How Not To Suck At Divorce (01:03)
And we are not alone in this conversation today. We have two new friends with us. Better known as the custody queens, I would like for you all to meet Kristen Holstrom and Samantha McBride. These women live and breathe custody law and they see firsthand what matters the most in court versus what just feels good in the moment. Hi, new friends. Welcome to How Not to Suck at Divorce.
Sam McBride, CFLS (01:30)
Thanks for having us. We're so excited to be here and I will try to put my barf bag to the side while we navigate this ⁓ narcissist conversation.
Morgan Stogsdill (01:34)
you
How Not To Suck At Divorce (01:39)
let me just say I get it right like and I wanted to start here before people listening are like my god why are they being so mean like she actually he actually is a narcissist listen I'm not saying that people are not experiencing really harmful and manipulative or high conflict behavior that is totally real
What I am challenging is whether or not labeling your co-parent
Morgan Stogsdill (02:08)
you
How Not To Suck At Divorce (02:09)
as a narcissist is going to help you mentally move forward or help you in your case.
Morgan Stogsdill (02:15)
Well, let me just start there.
Sam McBride, CFLS (02:15)
Yeah, and I don't think it normally
Morgan Stogsdill (02:17)
from a legal standpoint, in my mind, labels don't carry weight, behavior does. And what really messes with your mind, especially the mind of a client who's going through probably one of the hardest times in their life, is when you attach this narcissist label to your co-parent. Am I right, ladies?
Kristen A. Holstrom, CFLS (02:33)
Absolutely.
hate the words narcissist and I hate the words parental alienation. They're taglines, they're labels. And I think when you're getting ready to litigate or you're presenting the best facts, it is not helpful to keep using the victim mentality of that this is what he did to me for years and years and years. Okay? You are right. You have been wronged. You have been taken advantage of. You believed in something that was completely different with your marriage.
But when you continue to use that card a you lose weight and credibility with the judge and B It continues to hold you back in this new phase of your life You have to be able to let things go
Morgan Stogsdill (03:11)
you
Kristen A. Holstrom, CFLS (03:12)
learn how to make ideas the his idea And so there you both win, but you have to be able to move on at the end of the day
How Not To Suck At Divorce (03:20)
What do you do though when somebody comes in your door and they start with But he or she is this or that like how do you actually help them navigate away from that and redirect them?
Morgan Stogsdill (03:21)
you
Sam McBride, CFLS (03:36)
So I think that it's really important to hear from a client that they may be dealing with someone who's formally been diagnosed with narcissistic personality disorder. That in my experience is a little more rare. More often than not, it's typically they're talking about the traits. And it's important to know that that's who you're dealing with because not all divorce is the same. And there are those rare
Morgan Stogsdill (03:40)
Okay. you
Sam McBride, CFLS (04:00)
examples where people are going through divorce and it's like a walk in the park and everyone can get along.
But when somebody flags to me that their ex is narcissistic or has narcissistic traits or maybe otherwise emotionally manipulative or abusive, to me, it's a really important thing to know. I'm not gonna take that information and bring it to the court as a conclusion because that's where it can hurt you. But I am gonna take that information and say, okay, you now need to start playing a game of chess. You need to slow down and you need to realize that despite
Morgan Stogsdill (04:08)
you you ⁓
Sam McBride, CFLS (04:34)
the fact that you have
a narcissistic ex running into court and saying that they're a narcissist without actually developing the patterns that go to custody, that's where you're gonna fail and start to feel crazy.
Morgan Stogsdill (04:36)
you
How Not To Suck At Divorce (04:47)
100 % and that right there I think speaks to Where somebody can go right and where you can make that wrong turn? We want a label because labels make us feel
Morgan Stogsdill (04:53)
you
How Not To Suck At Divorce (05:00)
like we have an explanation for the pain that we're feeling right? We and we want to be able to put somebody in a box but
Morgan Stogsdill (05:02)
So
How Not To Suck At Divorce (05:08)
putting them in that box and leaning on that label, first of all, doesn't mean anything in court and it takes us away from what we can actually do. So help us understand, because this is Morgan and I are very actionable on this show. So let's talk for a minute
about observing actual facts and conduct and patterns and things that a judge...
would actually pay attention to and not these labels that we want to throw on our soon to be X.
Morgan Stogsdill (05:40)
you
Kristen A. Holstrom, CFLS (05:41)
So
when you're leaning on that box, it's a crutch, right? And I'm a very, very practical attorney. So I start with my clients when we're getting into these behaviors. If you ask the person coming in that's been through this phase of their life and they're resentful or they're hurt, but you ask them to define what these narcissistic personality traits are, it's often coming from a place of, like I said, resentful, anger, hurt, pain.
Morgan Stogsdill (05:44)
you
you
Kristen A. Holstrom, CFLS (06:09)
they're not really often able to identify exactly with respect to the legal process of how that helps them. So I start with a premise of asking every one of my clients and telling them, how does this help you and how does this hurt you with respect to the legal process? And that's where I start. So it's like, what are your goals? The biggest thing that a judge looks at in my opinion is how likely are you to facilitate visitation with the other parent?
Morgan Stogsdill (06:15)
you ⁓
Kristen A. Holstrom, CFLS (06:37)
How likely are you to co-parent
Morgan Stogsdill (06:39)
you
Kristen A. Holstrom, CFLS (06:40)
with the other parent? How likely are you to put your own personal issues aside with respect to custody and visitation? Those are some of the most important things right off the bat that I like to attack first.
Morgan Stogsdill (06:52)
So one thing I want to add there is coming up on almost 20 years of practicing, especially in family law. And I want to tell you and our listeners how many times I've actually seen a medical diagnosis of narcissism. Zero.
There's a reason for that. If this was a thing, you would get a medical diagnosis of narcissism almost in probably 70 % of cases. You don't for a reason. It's something in my mind that's made up online. It makes you feel a little better. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but what we're saying is that unless there's some expert that's going to come into court and testify that your ex is a narcissist and here's how it's hurting the children,
How Not To Suck At Divorce (07:08)
Yeah.
Morgan Stogsdill (07:37)
it's not going to get you very far. That's the bottom line. So what we want you to talk about is how it actually, how their behavior, because narcissism is behavioral based, how does their behavior actually hurt the children? So specifically, my co-parent, and we always talk about ladies, ⁓ Chad and Brenda on the show. These are our made up couple. So let's just say Brenda is a complete lunatic, okay? So Chad comes to us, they hire us, and they're saying,
Brenda's a narcissist and we say, whoa, whoa. No, we're not gonna deal with that. What that means is tell us how Brenda behaves that hurts the children. And then finally Chad gets it right and Chad says, well, Brenda doesn't make exchanges on time. She refuses to communicate with me about the children's medical information. She violates any parenting agreement we make. That's when the thing, when narcissism really is put into the court's purview.
And until then, we're trying not to label things. Sam, what's your thought on that?
Sam McBride, CFLS (08:35)
Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And candidly, even if you have someone that's formally diagnosed as a narcissist, that it's not a golden ticket. You're not like in Willy Wonka, where all of a sudden that means that you get custody,
You need to establish a pattern of behavior. And so then you're probably going to say, how do you do that? But you need to establish that with the court and show how that relates to custody and how that's in the children's best interest or that a certain pattern of behavior is detrimental.
And so that's where I start to get into a game plan with my clients. And most of that is really two big things. One is getting very, very specific court orders. And the other is forcing your narcissistic or ex that has those traits into a chess game, i.e. like a parent portal, our family wizard, or something like that. You need to start limiting their ability to get to you.
You need to put it in a forum that you can then translate into litigation.
How Not To Suck At Divorce (09:45)
And here comes another unpopular opinion. The majority of people out there with some high narcissistic traits are typically high functioning and wildly successful. So you putting that label on someone is more of a compliment than anything else.
Morgan Stogsdill (10:02)
One other thing, this is a big one. When you hear that your ex is a narcissist, your therapist should not be the one determining that your ex has narcissism. Okay, that is so inappropriate because unless they have met with your soon to be ex and have some very special relationship with them and medically have been treating them, they are not equipped to place labels on your ex.
How Not To Suck At Divorce (10:02)
Well, you.
Kristen A. Holstrom, CFLS (10:25)
So Morgan, Sam and I actually laugh about that quite often because therapists only mostly rely on what the patient or the client is telling them. So if I'm going in there and I'm telling my therapist how awful my husband is and how he makes me feel worthless, you know, for 20 years and he's got three girlfriends and I just found out he's buying his new girlfriend a Louis Vuitton purse. That's what I'm telling. This therapist doesn't know that person. There's been very likely no psychological testing going on.
How Not To Suck At Divorce (10:25)
And.
Kristen A. Holstrom, CFLS (10:53)
So I agree with that 100%. Your therapist should not really be making any diagnosis about your ex. They should be guiding you in a way to be able to move forward in a more positive, self-driven manner.
How Not To Suck At Divorce (11:07)
And I want to get back to the person who's listening to this episode because they're the ones who are suffering. And, you know, for you guys who have listened to our show for a while and you've followed me publicly and you know about my story, yeah, I had a really unhealthy marriage. My first marriage, rather, it was very unhealthy. It does not mean...
that I was married to somebody with narcissistic personality disorder. It means that we both participated in a marriage that ended up being very bad for me. Here's why this information that we're giving you today is really important and here's why I need you to listen and put your feelings to the side. If you do not apply what we are going to tell you, you're going to hurt yourself. You're going to fuck your case and you're going to hurt your kids more.
Morgan Stogsdill (11:59)
you
How Not To Suck At Divorce (11:59)
We
know that he's an asshole. We get it. We get that she sucks. We get that they have totally terrible abusive tendencies that is not up for debate. Okay. I hate him. Just so you all know, I hate him. I will slash his tires for you. She's such an animal. Done. We've said it. But what do you actually do to help yourself? I want to talk about social media for a minute because here's an area that gets a little bit tricky for people.
Morgan Stogsdill (12:10)
you
How Not To Suck At Divorce (12:29)
because we're having big feelings. Brenda, for example, is navigating this divorce from this fucking dick
Morgan Stogsdill (12:35)
you
How Not To Suck At Divorce (12:36)
Chad, right? And Brenda takes to social media and she starts sharing things that other people post about abusive behaviors and narcissism and, ⁓ my co-parent is such a dick that he did this, this and this. Let's.
Morgan Stogsdill (12:38)
Okay.
How Not To Suck At Divorce (12:53)
Tell everybody what happens should a judge or anybody else see that Brenda has gone hog wild on her social.
Morgan Stogsdill (12:55)
Okay.
Sam McBride, CFLS (13:03)
social media for me, Kristen always says, how can this help you? How can it hurt you? Especially in this category, you're just opening yourself up for opinions you're not asking for. You're potentially going to get twisted in a way that you didn't mean. And it actually can be used against you in court, especially if you're disparaging your ex online and you have children that may be of, of an age where they have access to that. So it's just a huge no.
Morgan Stogsdill (13:27)
you
Sam McBride, CFLS (13:30)
for me, that's why I always go back to the chess game and keeping it within, for example, an our family wizard portal. Because when you start to have different lines of communication, you're essentially going to put yourself, I think, in a situation where you have a lot more exposure for emotional reactions. And that is how your narcissistic quoted narcissistic ex is going to fuel his own fire.
Morgan Stogsdill (13:35)
you
Sam McBride, CFLS (13:56)
He's counting on your emotional reactions. He's counting on distracting you from developing the pattern of evidence that you need to litigate because that's really what you need to be doing. Instead, you're too focused on proving your point or trying to show everyone how crazy he is or what an issue he is. And a lot of times in my experience, it's good fuel for it to backfire on you. Now you feel crazy and emotionally exhausted and now too many people have an opinion about your case.
Morgan Stogsdill (14:24)
So. ⁓
Kristen A. Holstrom, CFLS (14:27)
And if you don't think that putting something on
social media, even if you delete it three minutes later, will come back to bite you in the ass, you are wrong. When you are putting something on social media, one, you're inviting all of your friends, followers, subscribers, you're inviting everyone to comment on your personal life. And when we want to use exhibits in cases, we have to show the whole chain. I can't just go in and show one comment to a post.
Morgan Stogsdill (14:48)
Thank
Kristen A. Holstrom, CFLS (14:54)
if I'm trying to make a point or illustrate a point. So you have to have your clean side of the street as well. But social media is forever. People take screenshots, they video record, they have their friend's friend from high school becoming your friend so that they can go get an insight. And not only that, you can actually get a restraining order based on putting inappropriate things on social media. the last one, it's just not a good look. It's not.
Morgan Stogsdill (15:02)
you
How Not To Suck At Divorce (15:20)
Give me an example. Give me something specific you guys. What have you seen? I mean I can give you plenty of things that I did when I got divorced that probably weren't the best choice. But like what give me some specifics. What really happens? What are people sharing and how did it actually hurt them?
Sam McBride, CFLS (15:33)
can give a thousand examples. So you disseminate private text messages between you guys about a custody battle to show what a jerk so-and-so is. So reposting that, right? Again, kind of going off what Kristen said, you're taking something potentially out of a chain of custody. You're disseminating something that should be otherwise private to the public to demonstrate, hey, look, he's a jerk. He's called me a name. I'm the victim here. But really, you're just fueling the fire because he's going to go back.
Morgan Stogsdill (15:36)
you
you you
Sam McBride, CFLS (16:03)
and try to find some other time where you looked crazy and use it against you.
How Not To Suck At Divorce (16:07)
Okay, you made me think of something that I am going to be so embarrassed that I'm sharing, but here goes. When I got divorced, I actually sent screenshots to my attorney of when I thought that my husband was like attacking me, right? Like saying all these horrible things. I remember my attorney's like, are you fucking blind? Look at what you wrote back to him. She's like, you're 10 times worse. And then I looked at it and I'm like, ⁓ yeah. Never mind.
Morgan Stogsdill (16:08)
you
you
Kristen A. Holstrom, CFLS (16:28)
Mm-hmm.
Sam McBride, CFLS (16:34)
Yeah.
Yeah, don't look at the blue, look at the left side.
Morgan Stogsdill (16:39)
So Andrea, that happens a lot too. It's everything from text messages to social media, everything lives on forever. And I have two points to make. Exactly what you said, which is I have so many clients that are like,
How Not To Suck At Divorce (16:39)
You are dead!
Morgan Stogsdill (16:52)
you should see these messages. She's such a jerk. She's such a jerk. And it's Chad. And I'm like, Chad, all right, fine. Give me the messages. Let me see how big of a jerk she is and let's make this case against her. And I get the messages and I'm like, my God, Chad is insane. Chad is insane. Brenda is sane. And I've even had to go toe to toe with Chad before. And you know what I did, which was kind of, I thought, a genius move because he didn't like that I was telling him, hey, you're dead in the water here.
Your texts are insane. The judge is going to hate you. Anyone representing the children is going to hate you. So I actually ran his chat through AI, and obviously a closed AI, not a chat chibi tea, but one with a law firm that is closed and secure. And I asked it to tell me who was the more reasonable person in the messages. And it came out, chat is a lunatic, basically. So I said, even AI is against you. Like, hello.
So that's the first point I want you to make and to know what you're saying because everything comes back to bite you. The second point is, don't be that person. Even the little things can really agitate the other side. So for instance, maybe we're getting close to settling your case. Maybe we're like on the cusp of getting it done so you can move on with your life. And then your ex goes on your social media and you might not be reposting things.
Kristen A. Holstrom, CFLS (17:50)
Very smart.
Morgan Stogsdill (18:14)
but maybe you're liking all this crazy things about narcissists and divorce and you know that that's out there for them
see. So yes, are you out really posting it? You're not, but they're watching what you're doing. And those are the little things that just really can throw a potential settlement or cost you a lot of money.
Kristen A. Holstrom, CFLS (18:32)
I
How Not To Suck At Divorce (18:32)
because
Kristen A. Holstrom, CFLS (18:33)
Morgan. think ⁓ I'm with you there and when I tell my clients that we can only we only have control of so many things right we can't control the behavior of the other side but what we can control is our side of the street and that was actually my therapist gosh 20 years ago you know when I was going through law school and I just wanted to like get some help like navigating you know more complicated times in life she would always tell me we can only control your side of the street Kristen and we have to keep it clean
So when a client, and here's a perfect example of something, this was probably a decade ago, but I had a client who believed that the other side, happened to be mom on the other side, was engaging in some extracurriculars, maybe some party favors on the weekends. And so he was so determined that he had got these text messages because his friends sent them to him about his wife and her friend. And it said something about scoring party favors, right? But then I go back and I read the chain and I read my client's text.
Morgan Stogsdill (19:20)
you
Kristen A. Holstrom, CFLS (19:28)
And at some point, he tells her, yeah, and this was like a month prior, yeah, I scored some stuff for us. So I'm like, okay, well, I can't use that now because even if she used it last weekend when she allegedly had the kids, if I read that whole chain, you're the one getting it for both of you. So I can't use that.
How Not To Suck At Divorce (19:46)
And by party favors, are you talking about like candy and balloons? Or are we talking about cocaine?
Kristen A. Holstrom, CFLS (19:52)
But
no, I'm talking something more along the lines of ⁓ Molly or ⁓ Ecstasy or some Percocets, kind of those type of things. You know, real, guess. Yeah, I have not included those party favors, but I would advise my clients that that's a hard no.
How Not To Suck At Divorce (19:56)
in our nose.
Morgan Stogsdill (20:04)
Those sound fun.
How Not To Suck At Divorce (20:06)
family party.
Okay, as fun as that sounds, you said something that I kind of like sparked a little part of my brain. I almost always agree with this idea of like, you can't control what the other person does. And it also contradicts what Sam was talking about earlier in a good way. And I would say this, we do this all the time about the game of chess, because yes, you can't control.
But why would you add more fuel to the fire if you're trying to be strategic? You know this person whom you are divorcing better than anybody. So if you start thinking more and feeling less, you're going to be smarter. So going back to liking and sharing things on social media, if you know that that's going to piss somebody off and you know that you have mediation coming up on Wednesday,
Morgan Stogsdill (20:43)
you
you
How Not To Suck At Divorce (21:06)
then maybe it's not a good idea to like and share it. Because you can't control that Chad's gonna fly off the handle. But if we think, we think, okay, maybe the stakes are high enough for me right now that it doesn't really behoove me to get him more in a state where he's gonna be more difficult to come to an agreement with. Which brings me to my next point, and this is what I.
Kristen A. Holstrom, CFLS (21:10)
Thank
Morgan Stogsdill (21:12)
you
How Not To Suck At Divorce (21:34)
really want to talk about. Going through a divorce is one of the most challenging processes that anybody goes through in their life. It can take a typical, kinder, functioning individual and turn them upside down and turn somebody into a fucking temporary lunatic. Or you can have somebody who's already a moderate bitch, but then she gets divorced and then look out. So
Let's talk for a minute about helping people recognize, again, why this label is so dangerous. Because we don't, want to assume that this person who's giving you such a hard time right now while you're divorcing is this horrible asshole and they will forever be this narcissistic asshole because they're not dying. You're not planning their funeral.
Morgan Stogsdill (22:03)
you
How Not To Suck At Divorce (22:26)
You're divorcing them and you will be co-parenting with them for the foreseeable future. So what are the thoughts?
Sam McBride, CFLS (22:33)
I mean, I completely agree. Just throwing that, if it feels good to you to feel that someone is a narcissist or has narcissistic traits, that's fine, but you need to move past it because if you're going to be co-parenting with someone and you really don't get
Morgan Stogsdill (22:35)
Okay. you
Sam McBride, CFLS (22:48)
to decide that now that you have children together and you're separated, then they're never gonna go away. And they might not get that much better, but that's why I always analogize it to chess because
You can make certain moves and you can keep them on a certain chessboard and you can at least mitigate the conflict. And just like
Morgan Stogsdill (23:09)
you
Sam McBride, CFLS (23:10)
you said with social media, you start adding all these extra layers, you're ramping up someone who is probably using your emotional reaction to their advantage. So you have to kind of suffocate that out. You're no longer gonna get these emotional reactions from me because that's not.
Morgan Stogsdill (23:12)
you ⁓
Sam McBride, CFLS (23:27)
gonna get you to your end game. And that's where you kinda need to establish what
are your goals in this case and are those goals reasonable? And if they are and you have these legitimate concerns, how do we document them to change your alter court order to try to force a situation where you have to play by certain rules? And so I think you can just mitigate it. I don't think you could ever get away from the fact.
Morgan Stogsdill (23:38)
you
Sam McBride, CFLS (23:54)
that you're dealing with a narcissistic ex because you're gonna have to co-parent with them. So you just have to, you have to establish that expectation is you're not gonna have that happy divorce that maybe your neighbor got. Good for them for getting it, but it's not realistic for you.
Morgan Stogsdill (24:08)
I also think you have to remember that people don't change. They don't. And anyone who comes into a marriage thinking that they're going to change somebody is not. And usually when they're getting divorced, that personality issue or problem or narcissistic behavior only amplifies. And then afterwards, if they truly have some of those personality issues,
what they really react on is loss of control. So you unfortunately have to step up even bigger than them. And you have to, like Andrea said, play the chess game with them. So if they feel you have to figure out how is this gonna work with this really high conflict co-parent? How do I make my life as easy as possible? Maybe you have to play the chess game and let them win at certain points or let them feel like they're in control.
to just have a calm life dealing with you and your children and your ex-co-parent. Those are things that you can think about and unfortunately, they aren't going to change. So you've been dealt this card, this ⁓ book of cards, how do we work with those cards? That's what you have to think about here.
Kristen A. Holstrom, CFLS (25:14)
Okay, so I am not the attorney for everyone because my bedside manner can be a little bit aggressive. But when we're talking about again, the last issue, courts don't necessarily care if your ex is an asshole. They don't. They don't necessarily care if they are selfish. What they care about is, are they able to co parent? Is one parent being selfish or unilaterally trying to control the kids?
is one parent including the other parent in ⁓ sports information, report cards, parent-teacher conferences, wellness exams. That's what they're looking at. And one of the biggest issues in this, what I see almost all the time in custody is you have one parent that says, they are controlling the kids, they are upset that I've moved on and therefore I don't get any extra time and all my time is up to whether or not she says yes. Okay, so what I tell my clients, give them what they want, again.
Morgan Stogsdill (25:52)
you
Kristen A. Holstrom, CFLS (26:09)
game of chess. So offer those extra times. Hey, I'm going out of town this weekend with my girlfriend. Would you like this extra time? Because a lot of times they don't want it. They want to have the labels. They want to have the power. They want to have that joint legal, joint physical. But if you can show a consistent paper trail that you have offered extra time on 10 different occasions and they turned it down eight, that is incredibly powerful for you when they go back to ask for more time.
How Not To Suck At Divorce (26:36)
What about in the case where somebody is actually in like a custody evaluation? What if the stakes are really high?
Morgan Stogsdill (26:45)
That is usually a worst case scenario in a divorce case when you cannot figure out what your parenting time is going to look like and in agreement with the other side. You're basically having somebody else, either an expert come in and make determinations or recommendations for you. That's your worst case scenario in a divorce case. It rarely happens, at least where I practice anymore. However, I've done many of them. And usually that person is either a licensed ⁓ psychiatrist, therapist, an MD of some sort. They have backing.
And I will tell you, I cannot tell you how many times I have seen someone lose in that scenario when they go in and label their ex. Because that's the whole purpose of what this person is doing. They're trying to figure out is the ex really a problem? So if you go in there and shove that my ex is a narcissist and here's why you should believe why, you're trying to do their job for them. And then they're looking at you thinking, is this person crazy? Maybe I need to turn the tables and really look at this person.
So be very careful. You have to have a massive strategy with your lawyer before stepping foot into one of those meetings.
Sam McBride, CFLS (27:51)
you want to move forward with facts and not conclusions. And it especially isn't a good idea to go to an appointed expert who may be qualified to do a formal diagnosis and tell them that you've done this. You've diagnosed somebody that hasn't been diagnosed because they know the difference. They know that they haven't been diagnosed.
per the DSM-5, right? And so that's really gonna lose, I think, credibility to you. And I agree, I think it increases the potential that you look crazy. And that's the thing is if you're going into a custody evaluation and your ex is trying to show that you're crazy, they're gonna try to have proof for that. So the less you're reacting and the less information they have from you, the less social media posts that they have where you have really...
Morgan Stogsdill (28:16)
Okay. So
Sam McBride, CFLS (28:41)
emotionally,
the better. And you can then not be so distracted with defending that position and be more on the offensive side of it where you're showing, here's all the exchanges that were missed. Here's all the unreasonable withholding of our child or our children. And that's the type of information typically that an expert is looking at when they're trying to craft a recommendation for a parenting plan and looking at which parent is the problem.
Morgan Stogsdill (29:07)
So what I want the listeners to really hone in on is exactly what Sam just said because we're huge on action steps on this podcast. If you are meeting with somebody
in your divorce case, whether it's your lawyer, whether it's somebody representing the children, whether it's potentially a custody evaluator, and you have these issues happening. Do more like exactly like Sam said, if you have an issue saying, you know, Brenda is late for every
pickup,
bring evidence as to when she is late for every pickup. Bring it with you. Here are emails, here are text messages where I'm like, where are you, Brenda? The kids got out of school. Here's an email from the teacher saying,
Johnny's been sitting outside of school for 20 minutes and this is, you know, Chad's
Those are the types of evidence that you really want to use and build your case upon. We don't really want blanket statements without backup evidence. So think about if you're saying, you know, these are the problems that I have and really what we're getting at is they are narcissistic behaviors, but we're really kind of saying, these are the issues specifically and here's the backup to prove what I'm saying.
That's what the experts want to look at.
How Not To Suck At Divorce (30:21)
and give them
rope to hang themselves. Like what Kristen said before.
Kristen A. Holstrom, CFLS (30:22)
you're going through that, I love it, Andrea.
How Not To Suck At Divorce (30:27)
we go back to, everybody knows about write a first refusal. Right? So if you've got a Thursday night commitment and you typically have the kids on a Thursday and you send that email saying, I have a work event Thursday night. Would you like to blah, blah, blah?
right, do something with the kids. You have that paper trail of them saying, no, I can't, or no, I don't want to, or you know, whatever. It is, you want to be strategic. It is so hard to be a chess player if you don't like chess. And I am telling you from the girl who does not like playing chess, this was such a hard mentality for me to adopt. And I had so many moments where I would break down in tears.
Morgan Stogsdill (30:41)
you
How Not To Suck At Divorce (31:10)
thinking, my God, I hate this. And I hate the person that I thought that I was becoming when I had to get that strategic. But I think I hated it because it scared me. thought, again, it's about adopting these ⁓ major ideas when it comes to just a choice that you're making. Just because I had to think strategically, that doesn't mean that I'm changing who I am as a person.
Morgan Stogsdill (31:22)
Okay.
How Not To Suck At Divorce (31:36)
It just means that I'm trying to shift and think a little bit more and feel a little bit less. So if you're listening to this episode and you're like, these bitches
are making me feel so uncomfortable right now because I do not like anything that I'm hearing, that is okay. Take a beat, take a breath. Even if you adopt some of what we are telling you, it is going to help you move the needle in a healthier direction.
Sam McBride, CFLS (32:01)
Yeah. And just to kind of add onto that, when you start going through a litigation process or a separation, think Morgan brought this up earlier, is a lot of times it gets worse right away, right? So it can feel extremely uncomfortable because now you're changing how you're behaving and you're receiving the worst side of your ex at the same time. And so you're not used to navigating it. But what I find is if you can create that plan and consistently implement it,
you'll start to realize how it's benefiting you and then it will be easier to do it and you'll be spending less time thinking about how to defend the accusations that are being thrown at you and you can kind of calm your mind down and just methodically respond in a way that helps you gather evidence if you need it or best case scenario mitigates your day to day interaction with that person so that you can breathe and live the rest of your life. Because people I think a lot of times forget that although there is
Morgan Stogsdill (32:51)
Okay.
Sam McBride, CFLS (32:59)
typically some litigation involved, especially if
someone has narcissistic traits. You don't want to spend your whole life in court, right? You want to get on, move on, and you're going to have to co-parent with this person.
Kristen A. Holstrom, CFLS (33:08)
I think that's well said, Sam and Andrea back to you. I think when you're able to get to that point of I hate chess too, throwing that out there. I'm a big chess person. Maybe because I played with my dad my whole life and he's always five steps ahead of everybody. But I think if you are able to get to that point and for anyone listening, it doesn't happen overnight. It takes time. Give yourself grace. You may not have responded the way you wish you should have when you go back and look at these different situations. And if you're going through
Custy evaluation. They're very very common in California like very common I would say 50 % of the cases end up in one if it's going through litigation But those are often the cases where you have emotional abuse You know verbal abuse and there's not a lot of things that we can prove and so the court kind of throws it to the expert But a lot of times you again like Sam said you want to show facts
So if I go in and I tell my client, and there's a lot of preparation, if you have an attorney, there should be hours of preparation before you go into this. But if my client tells me, okay, well, he just makes decisions for me. Okay, give me some examples. And then they share with me, well, he took my name off the emergency card for school and he put his girlfriend. Well, that is a really, really, really big thing for you to show as a perfect example of what you're trying to show.
So the more that you can get the facts and the more that you realize, hey, I'm growing through this process, I'm developing, I'm not necessarily giving into what he wants, but I am getting to a place that I know what he wants, I'm gonna give it to him and I'm gonna let him refuse it and make me look better.
How Not To Suck At Divorce (34:44)
So let's play pretend for a minute. What happens if somebody's able to drop the label and shift their mindset? What happens? How can their lives improve and how could their case improve?
Sam McBride, CFLS (34:58)
Well, I think if you shift your mindset, then you're going to start naturally spending less time defending yourself and spending more time methodically going through something like an our family wizard platform. And then you can then take that evidence. If you are having consistent issues, move forward with some court relief, prove the issue that you're having and ask for a specific order to change that.
whether it's because exchanges are a problem or pickups are a problem or drop-offs are a problem, you can start to move the needle. You're not gonna fix it, but you can start to actively do that.
How Not To Suck At Divorce (35:32)
You've mentioned our family wizard like 17 times, which makes me think that you love them as much as we do. You guys are, so we are all in agreement here that putting that guardrail in place, like in our family wizard is something that we all need to pull up our big girl or a big boy pants and do, right? It's mean that you're failing. It doesn't mean that you're crazy. And it doesn't mean that your kids are always going to be messed up because I think people have that mentality.
Sam McBride, CFLS (35:51)
Yes.
Kristen A. Holstrom, CFLS (35:52)
thousand percent.
How Not To Suck At Divorce (36:01)
Like, ugh, I don't like the way this feels to need a co-parenting app. Not to mention, I think so many people do it, they wait too long to do it, right? Like they don't do it proactively. They wait until things are really bad. What are your thoughts on that?
Kristen A. Holstrom, CFLS (36:15)
I think it protects both people. So it protects the person that may be being accused of not sharing the information or denying visitation. So I think, I think it's good for a million reasons, but one, I think it protects both sides. So it protects the person that is giving the information and the other side is denying it. But it also in practical terms, it makes everyone think twice of what they're going to say. Am I going to attack someone? And I have had a couple of cases like this, but am I going to attack someone and call them an
F-ing a-hole, F- you and your mom. Am I gonna go on a court-monitored platform and have verbal diarrhea where a judge potentially could read it? No. But, well, most people, no. It makes everybody think twice before they respond. And it also creates like a virtual boundary when you're going through the divorce. You're saying, hey, we're gonna talk about our kids and we're gonna keep it to our kids. And the second that you start asking me about who I'm dating,
Morgan Stogsdill (36:58)
Thank
Kristen A. Holstrom, CFLS (37:13)
I'm going to tell you in advance, I'm not going to be responding because that is outside of the scope of what this platform is designed to do.
Sam McBride, CFLS (37:20)
sorry, go ahead.
Morgan Stogsdill (37:21)
And this episode overall, the takeaway here, is that this is where legal strategy replaces emotional storytelling. Point blank. You don't need a judge to believe that your ex is a narcissist. You don't. But what you do need the judge to believe and see is a pattern of behavior that requires the judge to put boundaries around your ex.
How Not To Suck At Divorce (37:43)
and the other thing that I want to say Morgan and here comes my 49th unpopular opinion. Guys tell me what you think of this. When you label your ex as a narcissist you're giving them a starring role in the movie of your life. Why are we doing that? Why are we giving them that spotlight?
When you actually end up focusing on the behavior and the boundaries and the strategies and the actual facts, that's when you're able to take back the power. Am I right?
Sam McBride, CFLS (38:16)
Yeah, think the why is the most important thing. And only when you're a litigator, you care about the why. Like, well, why does that matter? So even if you can prove that your ex has narcissistic traits, like, yes, he is, why are you doing that when that's not the information that the court needs? The court needs specific information to change your orders if you're going to go that route. So the why I think certainly matters. And you want to take your case from like this
Kristen A. Holstrom, CFLS (38:16)
You
Morgan Stogsdill (38:17)
Your breath.
Sam McBride, CFLS (38:43)
I'm the most horrible person in analogies, by the way, but like your case is like an ocean, right? And you wanna put it in a little fish tank and contain it. So you have this person out there that can come, it's like the shark out there, you're in open water, put them on our family wizard, cut off all other communication, deal with them in court or deal with them on the app. And now you've...
You've made this world still exist. It's still something you have to function with, but it's a lot more manageable and it's not coming from social media. It's not coming from your friends or neighbors or anyone else.
Morgan Stogsdill (39:14)
Right, because legally, from a legal standpoint, you're going to get your power back when you are prepared. You are going to get your power back when you feel like you have done everything you can do to be prepared. It's not when you're out there diagnosing somebody or you're soon to be X. So remember that power looks like preparation.
How Not To Suck At Divorce (39:34)
So I want to make sure that these action steps are super clear. So let's go back and let's go over everything that we talked about and let's break it down. Okay. And I'm going to give, let's give us all a chance to say our piece. So let's think of if someone blacked out during this episode because they started taking tequila shots
and now they're just coming to what is the one thing we want them to know? Kristin, you start.
Kristen A. Holstrom, CFLS (40:04)
The one thing I love for my clients to know is A, you're not alone. B, your feelings are validated. They are important. And if we go over these action items in these steps that make you feel like you are not telling the world what he's done to you, it is okay to feel like that. But I want you to live your best life. I want you to get to the next phase of your life where no matter what he is thinking, saying, doing, it doesn't have any effect on you.
and that doesn't happen overnight, it is a process. And the way that you really kind of determine and see how much growth you've had is look at one of your responses at the beginning of the case, and then maybe a year later, because these cases can take a while, you look at a response that you've made. And if your response at the beginning was personal or based on emotions or reactions, that's normal. And then a year later, you might say, I'm sorry you feel that way, but let's get back to custody.
And that's kind of how you can see that you are growing through this process and you are stepping into the next phase of your life, girlfriend, and it is gonna be 10 times better.
How Not To Suck At Divorce (41:07)
What I would like everyone to know is that when in doubt, look for the facts. Facts don't have feelings. You have a lot of feelings and you are completely valid. Just like Kristen said, your feelings are not wrong, but you've got to lean on facts. Cases are settled on facts and utilize a timeline. If you need help gathering your facts together, we have a timeline that is available on our website with our guides. It's under
communicating with your attorney in the most effective way guide. Use that. That will help you organize the actual behaviors that are going on. You've got to get away from the labels. It's not going to help your case and it's going to make you crazier. Morgan, what do you have?
Morgan Stogsdill (41:53)
Very simple power is preparation. That's when you get your power back the more prepared you are the more comfortable You're going to feel and your power will come back in this situation
How Not To Suck At Divorce (42:02)
love it. Bring me home, Sam.
Sam McBride, CFLS (42:05)
if you feel like your ex has narcissistic traits or some sort of issue, high conflict, first and foremost, contact and retain an experienced attorney to help you craft a plan. But it's really important to get a plan in place because every case is going to be different. But if you have a plan in place, then you can decide what steps you need to take to execute that plan. And that can also grab and get your power back.
rather than just fighting a battle of emotional exhaustion. You can take a step back and lean on people to help you get through the process.
How Not To Suck At Divorce (42:41)
And something else to remember, don't take to social media. That is not gonna help you. It leaves a lasting mark. We love for you to follow our social media. The custody queens want you to follow their social media, but be mindful
Morgan Stogsdill (42:54)
you
How Not To Suck At Divorce (42:55)
of what you are sharing and commenting on and posting, okay? All right, we had a very heavy conversation and I have to go pick up my kids at school, but.
I need to ask some rapid fire questions and some are gonna be really fun and some are gonna be very serious. So I'm gonna ask the question, just give me the answer, like as fast as you guys can, okay? Here we go.
telling my attorney over and over again at 11 o'clock at night that my ex is a narcissist is going to help my case, true or false. Wow, thank you, Sam, you get a point. using language like abusive, narcissist is going to make the judge believe me and like me more than my ex.
Morgan Stogsdill (43:21)
you
Sam McBride, CFLS (43:26)
False.
Kristen A. Holstrom, CFLS (43:38)
Absolutely false.
How Not To Suck At Divorce (43:39)
Tell me really quickly, what is the number one thing that judges use to make decisions?
Kristen A. Holstrom, CFLS (43:44)
What parent is most likely going to continue facilitating a relationship with the other parent and follow a visitation order?
How Not To Suck At Divorce (43:51)
Thank you. True or false? Hot dogs are dumb, but burgers are awesome.
Sam McBride, CFLS (43:55)
love hot dogs.
Kristen A. Holstrom, CFLS (43:57)
I love both. I love, good, I love a good Costco hot dog.
How Not To Suck At Divorce (43:57)
Ew!
Sam McBride, CFLS (43:58)
Yeah dude, dog.
Slice some mustard on that, the spicy mustard on that thing. Yep.
How Not To Suck At Divorce (44:04)
⁓ girl. Hot dogs are so dumb. Morgan and I are so-
Sam McBride, CFLS (44:05)
I know.
Kristen A. Holstrom, CFLS (44:07)
Aren't you guys from Chicago?
A good Chicago hot dog?
How Not To Suck At Divorce (44:10)
We are such burger girls. mean, we're burgers all the way over here. Okay, this is one
Morgan Stogsdill (44:15)
you
How Not To Suck At Divorce (44:16)
of my favorite questions. Morgan, I need you to chime in here. Most assholes are named what?
Morgan Stogsdill (44:22)
Chad.
Kristen A. Holstrom, CFLS (44:23)
Rick.
How Not To Suck At Divorce (44:23)
Rick? Did you say Rick?
Kristen A. Holstrom, CFLS (44:24)
I don't
know, I just made that up.
Sam McBride, CFLS (44:26)
Something with a J. I feel like just the whole J category.
Kristen A. Holstrom, CFLS (44:27)
Dick, dick, dick.
How Not To Suck At Divorce (44:30)
Okay,
other side most bitches are named
Morgan Stogsdill (44:33)
Linda.
Sam McBride, CFLS (44:33)
Karen.
Kristen A. Holstrom, CFLS (44:34)
Lisa.
How Not To Suck At Divorce (44:35)
Lip gloss or lipstick?
Kristen A. Holstrom, CFLS (44:36)
lip gloss.
Sam McBride, CFLS (44:37)
The boil.
How Not To Suck At Divorce (44:37)
⁓
love it. Favorite sex position? ⁓ no one said anything, I was waiting. I just did it just to watch Morgan sweat.
Kristen A. Holstrom, CFLS (44:43)
my god!
Sam McBride, CFLS (44:48)
Hahaha
How Not To Suck At Divorce (44:49)
what's your cocktail order?
Kristen A. Holstrom, CFLS (44:50)
Expresso Martini.
Sam McBride, CFLS (44:51)
I'm a gin and tonic. I'm an old lady. Gin and tonic.
Morgan Stogsdill (44:55)
Belvedere dirty martini. Belvedere dirty martini, three blue cheese olives because if you do two, it's bad luck.
How Not To Suck At Divorce (44:55)
Morgan, what's your current vote?
Sam McBride, CFLS (45:01)
That's a good drink.
How Not To Suck At Divorce (45:01)
And
that is more so for those of you who like are hardcore fans and you see Morgan and I everywhere we go, that is our drink. Like every time we get together, that is our first drink. It's like, it's our thing. And then I usually switch to red wine. Okay, serious question. Can you effectively co-parent with a high conflict individual?
Sam McBride, CFLS (45:23)
Yes.
Kristen A. Holstrom, CFLS (45:23)
Yes.
Morgan Stogsdill (45:24)
Yes.
Yes, use the cards you're dealt with to your advantage.
Kristen A. Holstrom, CFLS (45:27)
Yes, pick your battles and choose wisely. And you have to make it their idea. And once they believe it was their idea and they won, then you have effectively won.
How Not To Suck At Divorce (45:36)
I loved that we were able to have this conversation. I'll tell you, I was sweating so many times because it's been so long since Morgan and I have had two guests on the show. And there are moments where I'm like, my God, my God, so many smart women. Who goes first? I don't know. But what a wealth of knowledge you guys brought. So thank you so much. Before we let you all go and wrap this show up, tell everybody just a tidbit about your
business, how people can find you about the shows that you guys do and all of that amazing stuff.
Kristen A. Holstrom, CFLS (46:11)
Sam and I are the managing partners of Custody Queens. We focus on high conflict, complex custody cases, also for people that may have an agreement, but want to make sure that it's official and it's in order so we can get these orders in place and allow you to move on. ⁓ Sam and I make a really good team because we are different in a lot of ways, but we almost always come to the same conclusion. We have two podcasts
Sam McBride, CFLS (46:36)
We have a custody Queens on air podcast and we have a CQ off the clock podcast, is really Kristen and I are jumping into the true crime junkie realm, but the CQ on air podcast we've been doing for about five years now. We talk about custody, we talk about family law, we talk about a little bit of everything. So definitely check that out.
Kristen A. Holstrom, CFLS (46:55)
And Andrea, they can find us on Instagram, TikTok. We have our website, custyqueens.com. We are also on Facebook as well. And I just wanted to say, thank you for having us. It was so incredible to be able to share the stage with such intelligent and beautiful women, might I add. And I, after watching a lot of your shows, I loved that you guys are as practical as we are, right? When you're paying $1,000 for an attorney or $750 for an attorney.
Morgan Stogsdill (47:12)
you
Kristen A. Holstrom, CFLS (47:24)
I think one of your clients, Morgan, was asking for dating advice on one of the shows I was watching. You want to make sure you are using that time as efficiently as possible. Your attorney is not your bestie to talk shit on your ex's new girlfriend. Find someone that's not 7.50 an hour for that. Get yourself a therapist. But I really do enjoy that you guys give practical advice because that's what Sam and I do. We try to take your goals and your desires and the facts that you have to accomplish
Morgan Stogsdill (47:28)
Thank
Kristen A. Holstrom, CFLS (47:54)
what those goals are. But at the end of day, this is your life. It's not mine. It's not Sam's. And we want to help you get there, but you are the captain. But if you're not going to listen to your attorney, stop paying for
How Not To Suck At Divorce (48:05)
Bye.
How Not To Suck At Divorce (48:08)
So if you listened to this episode and you're still thinking, but Andrea, but Morgan, my ex, my co-parent is really awful. We get it and we believe you, but believing you doesn't mean that the court is gonna respond to that label.
Morgan Stogsdill (48:23)
The court is not going to respond to that label. They're going to respond to facts. And so if you took nothing out of this episode, but the one thing, which is get the facts, build out your case with facts and evidence, that's even better than diagnosing somebody.
How Not To Suck At Divorce (48:39)
And guys, you're not crazy, you're not weak, you're not wrong. We just want to help you navigate your way through this experience. And there might be times during this episode where you thought, ouch, like they're really coming for me. Like this is, that got a little aggressive, that got little spicy. It might have.
I am sorry for that because the last thing we want to do is hurt your feelings while you're going through something hard. But at the same time, my God, you need this information because if you keep doing the same thing over and over again, you are going to waste money. You are not going to win anything. You are going to make yourself crazier and you are going to hurt the kids. So you've got to drop the narcissist label once and for all and work towards some kind of resolution.
even with the most impossible person. Be strategic.
Morgan Stogsdill (49:35)
sometimes the reality is, and here's an unpopular opinion, your lawyer just doesn't have the balls to tell you this, but we do. So listen to us. If you need more community, we've built it for you. You can go in anonymous to our Facebook community. You can DM us. We respond to any DMs that you send. If you need attorney referrals, it doesn't matter where you are. We get them for you. Go online, buy the DCC. If you want more information, there are other workbooks that might help you.
Just become part of our community because it will lift you up. We promise that because remember this, divorce is a marathon. It is not a sprint. Some days are day by day during this process and other days it's minute by minute and that's okay. You're going to be okay.
How Not To Suck At Divorce (50:18)
you're doing it, when it feels like you're not doing it, you are. You are taking steps towards being healthier and happier. Keep going. I know that there are days where you think to yourself, I don't want to do this anymore. This feels impossible. I am hurting. My kids are hurting. I cannot stop the insanity. Well, in that moment, I invite you then stop trying. Just take a break from it. But don't quit. Your arms might be tired from doggy battling, but I
promise you, keep swimming and you will get to the other side and we are going to be here for you, cheering you on and guiding you every single breath you take. Remember, you have got this.
Morgan Stogsdill (50:59)
And we, my friends, have got you.
How Not To Suck At Divorce (51:02)
The How Not to Suck a Divorce podcast shall not be copied or rebroadcast without consent. This podcast does not contain legal advice. The information heard on this show shall not and should not be used as legal advice.