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A dorsal vagal shutdown is one of
three primary autonomic states.

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It occurs when one can't exist
in their ventral vagal safety

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state, and when sympathetic
flight and fight haven't worked.

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The body collapses or
plays dead at the extreme.

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It's a normal biological reaction
in the face of a life threat.

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But we can get stuck in
a dorsal vagal shutdown.

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Day to day, it shows up in our
emotions, our thoughts, our behaviors,

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and even our connections with others.

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It directly impacts our life, our
happiness, and our motivation.

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You likely have somebody in your
life who is stuck in shutdown.

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Maybe somebody at your work,
or even in your own home.

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Heck, you may be stuck
in shutdown yourself.

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But, I'm going to focus on
how to recognize it in others.

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When we recognize shutdown in
others, it might help us to feel more

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compassion and less judgment for them.

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My name is Justin Sunseri.

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I am a therapist and coach who
helps you live more calmly,

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confidently, and connectedly
without psychobabble or woo woo.

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Welcome to Stuck Not Broken.

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This podcast is not therapy, nor
is it intended to replace therapy.

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What's a dorsal vagal shutdown?

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Let's understand shutdown a tad more
before discussing how it might show

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up in the people that you care about.

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Biologically, shutdown is
a state of immobilization.

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Specifically, collapsed and limp.

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Freeze is also a state of
immobilization, but tense.

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Shutdown is also a state of conservation.

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The body is slowing down, or shutting
down, its processes to conserve resources

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in anticipation of coming out of shutdown.

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When it comes out of shutdown it emerges
into sympathetic flight fight activation

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and then uses that energy to create
space, escape, and return to safety.

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So shutdown is collapsed limply
and conserving resources.

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Everything is slowed down.

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Shutdown also requires
reduced stimulation.

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The external world is
overwhelming, it's too much.

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Shutdown needs less, it needs less
noise, less light, less people even.

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On that note, shutdown's
actually usually pretty alone.

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In shutdown, one disconnects from others,
and even from themselves to some degree.

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So, let's understand shutdown
as a state of collapsed and

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disconnected immobilization.

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Okay, now we're ready to learn how
shutdown shows up in others, like

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the person that you're thinking
of that prompted you to click on

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this episode in the first place.

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Is what I'm going to share
true for everyone all the time?

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Of course not.

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But these are fairly predictable
presentations of shutdown.

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At the end of this episode, just
to throw a wrench into everything,

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I'll share how this actually might
not be true at all at the same time.

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So what I'm giving you are likely
very common presentations of shutdown,

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but at the extreme, shutdown could
present much differently as well.

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shutdown and isolation.

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Someone in shutdown, including
your loved one, may withdraw.

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They might be isolating themselves.

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This can be as extreme as locking
themselves in a dark room and doom

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scrolling for hours or oversleeping.

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Being alone feels better for
somebody who's in shutdown.

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Other people are potentially overwhelming.

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Not to mention the sounds, the
crowds, and the lighting of the places

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that we typically go to every day.

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You might go to the grocery
store and have no problem.

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But Someone in shutdown could struggle
to get out of their front door because

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they're so physically exhausted.

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And then when they get to the
store, that might be another huge

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challenge to get into that next door.

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Remember, shutdown is a state of collapse.

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Their body is at least
prepared to collapse, not to

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mobilize and go to the store.

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And if they make it to the
store they could legitimately

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struggle with overstimulation.

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Too many people, too many
sights, too many sounds, the

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lighting might be too harsh even.

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You might think, "Well, too bad. They
need to get over it, or that's an

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excuse for laziness." I'm not asking
you to be okay with the shutdown that

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your loved one is struggling with.

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I'm not asking you to be okay with how
they're handling it, or not handling it.

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I don't think the person in shutdown
is okay with it either, but whether you

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accept it or not, whether you're okay
with it or not, these are potential

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obstacles for somebody in shutdown.

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This is their reality, or
at least a piece of it.

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the demeanor and body posture of shutdown

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When someone is stuck in shutdown, you'll
see it in their faces and their body.

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Again, shutdown is about collapse.

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So someone in shutdown will
have a collapsed look to them.

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Maybe not lying on the floor
like literally collapsed, but

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slumped, slouched, shriveled.

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They appear smaller.

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This is how they show up to
my therapy office, no matter

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what age they are, honestly.

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Teens are probably more obvious
about it, but adults do it too.

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As mobility comes back into their system,
they can sit upright, they can lean

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forward, they think and they plan with
more motivation and more intention.

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Also, somebody in shutdown, and
maybe this is describing your loved

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one, They'll also have unique facial
qualities, and by unique I mean, uh,

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they kind of don't have facial qualities.

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I mean, they do, obviously.

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They still have faces, but the life
in their face is just kind of gone.

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They're just sort of flat.

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There's no emotion in their faces.

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They don't smile.

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Their eyes are open, but only partially.

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Especially compared to Flight
Fight, which are more wide open.

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Their upper cheeks, the person in
shutdown, they aren't doing much

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and eye crinkles don't really
form on the corners of their eyes.

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Of course, I'm speaking very generally
and really more to the extreme one

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dimensional presentation of shutdown.

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There's obviously a variety of
possible presentations, but you're

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likely to see these types of things.

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When you're with someone who's in
shutdown, you might feel yourself

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pulled down, heavier, less hopeful.

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It's not their fault, they're
not imposing that feeling on you.

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You, as an empathetic, caring
person, are feeling a bit of

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what it's like to be them.

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That's a bit of their
experience, day in and day out.

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Someone in Shutdown also hugely
struggles with eye contact.

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They tend to look down.

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In Flight Fight, we look away also,
but more around the environment, almost

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looking for danger, scanning for danger.

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Or in Flight Fight, our eyes are
wider open, staring at the person

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in front of us and maybe even
creating uncomfy eye contact.

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But in shutdown, they look down.

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Like, they lack the
energy to even look up.

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Maintaining eye contact
is pretty much impossible.

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That requires, maintaining eye contact
requires a lot of safety in the system.

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So, if you're someone that needs eye
contact to feel like you're being listened

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to and understood, You're kind of SOL.

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If the body's in a state of collapse,
and thinks it's life's in threat, then

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making eye contact and facial emotiveness
are just not priorities for that body.

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vocal changes in shutdown

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in shutdown, the voice becomes flat.

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Just like facial affect and body posture.

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It's there, but there's no life in it.

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Very monotone and leaning more into
the deeper end of the vocal spectrum,

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no matter what their gender is.

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In safety, we have something
called vocal prosody, which is

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a sing songy quality of voice.

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Vocal prosody enables
us to go high and low.

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I can't do a very good high voice.

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To go high and low.

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Vocal prosody allows us to express our
emotions and our intent through voice.

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In a defensive state,
that's not really possible.

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Shutdown, in particular, as a
defensive state, is flat in prosody.

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And it's also slower.

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There isn't much energy in what
someone in shutdown is saying.

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Sometimes it even seems like they
struggle to get through the sentence.

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It's not uncommon for someone in shutdown
to think before they speak, inhale,

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and then say one sentence that bypasses
everything that was being talked about.

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For example, if you ask someone in
shutdown what motivates them, they

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might pause, breathe in, and then say,
"What's the point?" That one sentence

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may be the best they can muster.

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thinking and shutdown

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On that note, let's touch upon the
cognitions of someone who is in shutdown.

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The thinking.

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Just like face and just like
voice, thinking is flat, devoid

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of energy, not much life in it.

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Very pessimistic.

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Lacking hope.

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Helpless, even.

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Again, this is at the extreme.

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Someone in shutdown can totally
have a job they excel at, but

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outside that context, they fall
into typical shutdown experiences.

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Or when a shutdown individual is in a
different environment, like nature, or

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with a loved one, or with their pet, in
silence, they're less shut down, more

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mobile, and maybe even more hopeful.

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In shutdown, again, the body's preparing
to die, so thinking is not a priority.

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Just like facial emotions,
vocal prosody, and body posture.

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Everything is slowing down,
including thoughts, and the ability

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to form new memories, to sustain
attention, to think critically,

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and to feel hope and motivation.

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Also to think hopefully and
think in a motivated way.

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You might think, "Well, they just
need to think more positively."

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And yeah, you're right.

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I don't exactly disagree.

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But, it's also not going to happen.

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At least not when they're in shutdown.

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You see, when we're in a defensive
state, we don't have access

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to all of our brain functions.

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But that includes flight,
fight, freeze, and shutdown.

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But in shutdown, we might have even less.

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At the very extreme, someone in
shutdown may actually dissociate.

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They may disconnect from their
bodies, from reality, and from you.

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They don't want to.

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It's not a conscious choice.

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It's a biological reaction which affects
the entire body, including the brain.

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emotions and shutdown

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So we've covered isolating, body
posture, voice, face, and thinking.

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So what about emotions?

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Just like the other domains that
we've covered, the collapsed state of

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shutdown affects how we feel also, or
affects how your loved one feels also.

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In shutdown, the individual feels slow.

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Empty, heavy.

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What else would they feel if they were
ready to collapse and play dead, right?

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They feel potentially
hopeless and helpless as well.

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They also know they're letting
people down and themselves too.

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They know they're not fulfilling
their responsibilities or they're

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wasting their life to some degree.

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So they also feel guilt and regret.

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Maybe even shame.

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So there's this overall sense of
disconnection in shutdown, which shows

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up emotionally in a bunch of ways.

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how shutdown can look like not shutdown

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I'm gonna backtrack in the
intro I mentioned throwing

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a wrench into everything and
how this could all be wrong.

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I say that because someone in shutdown
may adopt behaviors that completely

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mask the fact that they are in shutdown.

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This is more for those who are
in life contexts where they are

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dealing with abuses of various
kinds day in and day out.

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Someone who's been repeatedly
abandoned, neglected, or let down.

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This person seriously lacks
safe connections, and they may

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need to become someone else to
meet their own survival needs.

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They're still them, but they're them
with a fake smile on their face.

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They're them, but they behave in ways that
seem counterintuitive to their well being,

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like, connecting with their abusers,
something that's called appeasement.

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Or, they may preemptively attempt
to reduce their partner's rage by

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prioritizing the partner's needs
through something called fawning.

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What to do.

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Step 1: Validate your
loved one's shutdown.

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Okay, so, what the heck
do you do about all this?

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You're a caring individual
in this person's life.

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You hate seeing them go through this.

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What can you do?

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Let's return to an idea
that I brought up before.

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I said You don't have to be okay
with someone being in shutdown.

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You don't have to be okay with the
choices they make from shutdown.

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You don't have to think it's
forever, and you don't have to think

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you're helpless in the face of it.

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And you don't have to endorse the
choices that they make either.

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You're allowed to want better for them.

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They want it, too.

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I'm not telling you how you should
or should not act or feel in response

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to your loved one's shutdown.

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But I am recommending you acknowledge
the potential truth of the situation.

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In other words, validate it.

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Acknowledge it.

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Validating means
acknowledging what is true.

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If what I have described sounds like
your loved one, just acknowledge it.

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That doesn't mean be
okay with it or like it.

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Just Acknowledge it.

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If you brought your validation to
that person, that would probably be

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more beneficial to them than telling
them to think differently or reminding

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them that they're wasting their life.

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They already know.

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Step 2: Normalize their shutdown.

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after validating, the next
thing you can do is normalize.

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That means you reflect on their life and
ask yourself, "If I had their life would I

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likely have a similar shutdown response?"
Or "If somebody else had their life,

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00:14:44,336 --> 00:14:49,756
would they likely have a similar shutdown
response?" For example, if your spouse

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who suffered ongoing abuse as a child
is in shutdown, does that make sense?

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If your friend whose parents
abandoned him when he was young is in

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00:14:59,246 --> 00:15:01,366
shutdown, does that make sense why?

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00:15:02,366 --> 00:15:07,986
If your coworker lost those closest
to her this past year, would it

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00:15:07,986 --> 00:15:09,986
make sense why she's in shutdown?

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00:15:10,956 --> 00:15:16,016
If your parents were raised in an
extremely controlling and publicly shaming

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00:15:16,026 --> 00:15:21,376
religious institution, would it make
sense why they might be in shutdown?

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Normalizing doesn't
mean being okay with it.

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It doesn't mean liking it.

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It just means making sense of it.

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Step 3.

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Let them be in shutdown.

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00:15:31,844 --> 00:15:32,994
Okay, so let's build on that.

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Validate, normalize.

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00:15:34,974 --> 00:15:43,674
So, If their shutdown is valid and
normal, the next step is to let it be.

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Stop fighting it.

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Stop minimizing it.

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00:15:47,949 --> 00:15:49,259
Stop excusing it.

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Stop denying their shutdown.

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Let them be in shutdown.

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00:15:53,719 --> 00:15:55,889
Again, you don't have to be
okay with it, or like it.

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Letting them be in shutdown means you let
go of control, or the illusion of control.

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It's their shutdown, not
yours, so let them have it.

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You can still expect the best of them.

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You can still hope for the best from them.

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00:16:09,816 --> 00:16:13,236
You can still hold them accountable for
the choices they make, or don't make.

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But, it's their shutdown.

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It's up to them to get themselves
out of shutdown, ultimately.

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Of course, you want to
help them, and you can.

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You care about the person for whom
you're watching this video, or

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listening to this podcast episode.

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You want to help.

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So, after validating, normalizing, and
letting them be in shutdown, you can

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connect with them more meaningfully.

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Step 4: connect with your loved one.

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Deb Dana has this wonderful analogy for
connecting with somebody in shutdown,

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00:16:44,388 --> 00:16:48,138
which she got from somebody else who I
don't know the name of, unfortunately.

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Someone who shut down is like
a turtle inside of its shell.

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If you want the turtle to come out,
you don't knock on the shell and

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00:16:56,018 --> 00:16:57,588
shake it and force it to come out.

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00:16:57,795 --> 00:17:00,825
Instead, you sit patiently and wait.

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00:17:01,735 --> 00:17:04,475
Your loved one is in
their shut down shell.

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00:17:05,325 --> 00:17:13,125
Begging, pleading, yelling, forcing,
threatening, shaming, guilt tripping.

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00:17:14,085 --> 00:17:15,215
These things won't help.

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00:17:15,485 --> 00:17:19,975
They may actually make things worse, I
would kind of bet on it, in all honesty.

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Instead, you be patient and
wait for them to come out.

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00:17:26,135 --> 00:17:27,305
You can also want the best for them.

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You can also tell them you believe
in them, that you love them, that

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you want them to get professional
support, but part of the equation in

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helping them is to give them patience.

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00:17:40,455 --> 00:17:42,105
Another part is to give them space.

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They don't do well with
pressure and pushing.

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They may need space or if you're with them
they may do better with quiet and calm.

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Maybe ask them, they might know.

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00:17:54,092 --> 00:17:55,262
a parenting example

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00:17:55,767 --> 00:17:59,707
does this mean you give them space and
let them indulge in isolation and time

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00:17:59,707 --> 00:18:02,437
killing and ignoring responsibilities?

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00:18:02,437 --> 00:18:03,107
Of course not.

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00:18:04,177 --> 00:18:08,327
I was working with a young man
who just completed high school and

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00:18:08,327 --> 00:18:10,197
failed his first year of college.

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00:18:11,047 --> 00:18:16,237
Living with his parents, isolating
in his room, no job, not in school,

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00:18:17,037 --> 00:18:21,847
lots of video game time, and time
with his girlfriend and his friends.

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Wasn't doing house chores.

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Uh, in every way this kid was shut
down, or this young man was shut down.

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He was pretty unmotivated, wracked
with, uh, guilt, and shame, and regret.

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00:18:34,492 --> 00:18:36,052
He was pretty deep in
shutdown, I would say.

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00:18:36,102 --> 00:18:38,242
His parents did what any
typical parent would do.

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00:18:38,242 --> 00:18:43,372
They pressured, they pleaded, they begged,
they fought, and they also judged him.

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00:18:43,502 --> 00:18:45,322
All of it came from love.

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00:18:45,402 --> 00:18:48,012
I know it sounds weird, but they
wanted the best for him, and they

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00:18:48,022 --> 00:18:52,582
were having a hard time watching him
in shutdown waste away, pretty much.

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00:18:53,782 --> 00:18:58,702
So all of their efforts didn't
help, and probably it actually

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solidified his shutdown even more.

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00:19:01,332 --> 00:19:05,282
Even though it was ineffective, it came
from the best, and it came from love.

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00:19:05,922 --> 00:19:09,622
They just didn't know how to connect
with him, and they didn't know how

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00:19:09,622 --> 00:19:11,012
to help him get to that next step.

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00:19:11,012 --> 00:19:13,922
Things got so bad for him,
he sought out therapy.

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00:19:14,302 --> 00:19:17,462
Because he knew he needed help and
things were looking pretty dim.

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00:19:18,272 --> 00:19:21,462
But instead of connecting with me
directly, he connected with his parents

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00:19:21,462 --> 00:19:23,772
to find him a therapist, which they
did, and they connected with me.

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00:19:24,652 --> 00:19:25,962
So his parents connected him with me.

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00:19:26,507 --> 00:19:29,427
They all came to the first
session and it went really well.

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00:19:29,817 --> 00:19:33,357
He was supposed to come work with me one
on one, but the next session he flaked.

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00:19:34,077 --> 00:19:35,307
Because he was rude?

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00:19:35,307 --> 00:19:35,597
No.

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00:19:35,607 --> 00:19:39,227
Because he was insensitive or because
he didn't care about his life?

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00:19:39,227 --> 00:19:39,497
No.

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00:19:39,507 --> 00:19:40,507
He's in shutdown.

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00:19:40,727 --> 00:19:44,867
And following through, feeling motivated,
feeling energized to get out of the

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00:19:44,867 --> 00:19:46,737
house a second time was too much for him.

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00:19:47,727 --> 00:19:51,237
So, we didn't give up, we didn't
shame him, the parents didn't

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00:19:51,237 --> 00:19:52,427
judge him, they didn't, no.

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00:19:53,407 --> 00:19:57,297
His parents and I worked together on
how to best help him meet his goals.

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00:19:58,022 --> 00:20:01,902
They knew what didn't work, so
we focused on what might work.

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00:20:02,812 --> 00:20:04,582
They did a combination of a few things.

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00:20:04,612 --> 00:20:07,682
They gave him more statements of
love and support and encouragement.

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00:20:08,662 --> 00:20:12,092
They also reduced how many statements
of negativity they gave him.

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00:20:12,122 --> 00:20:13,162
Was it easy and smooth?

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00:20:13,372 --> 00:20:13,782
Heck no.

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00:20:13,792 --> 00:20:15,762
But they did good enough.

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00:20:15,892 --> 00:20:21,712
On top of that, they also told him
if he can't complete his household

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00:20:21,712 --> 00:20:26,272
chores, his household expectations
like taking the garbage out, then

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00:20:26,282 --> 00:20:30,292
he would not be able to use their
electricity for things like video games.

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00:20:31,172 --> 00:20:33,382
They told him he can make his own choices.

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00:20:33,762 --> 00:20:37,172
They would not hound him, they would
not pressure him, and they would

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00:20:37,172 --> 00:20:41,942
simply remove the privileges they had
provided to him, but he did not earn.

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00:20:42,152 --> 00:20:45,652
The electricity for video games
is a privilege that they gave to

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00:20:45,652 --> 00:20:47,252
him even though he didn't earn it.

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00:20:47,252 --> 00:20:50,822
All of these pieces helped him
to reduce his isolation and to

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00:20:50,852 --> 00:20:52,222
connect with his parents more.

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00:20:52,822 --> 00:20:56,762
He also came back to therapy and worked
with me one on one to boost his motivation

358
00:20:57,092 --> 00:20:58,742
and to start getting things done.

359
00:20:59,132 --> 00:21:00,662
He wanted to get things done.

360
00:21:00,672 --> 00:21:04,232
He just was in a deep shutdown
and didn't know what to do next.

361
00:21:04,232 --> 00:21:08,122
He and I met individually I think once,
and after that meeting, he started

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00:21:08,192 --> 00:21:12,862
applying to jobs, he re enrolled in
school, and he and I even met with his dad

363
00:21:13,372 --> 00:21:14,962
so that they could talk some stuff out.

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00:21:14,962 --> 00:21:17,732
They had some issues between the
two of them that were ignored

365
00:21:17,752 --> 00:21:19,262
for years and years and years.

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00:21:20,042 --> 00:21:23,922
The parents gave him love and
support, but more effectively.

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00:21:24,522 --> 00:21:28,582
They gave him love and support
without the guilts and the shaming.

368
00:21:29,092 --> 00:21:31,632
They gave him love and support
because they love and support him.

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00:21:32,192 --> 00:21:37,222
But instead of being okay with and
watching him not live up to their

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00:21:37,232 --> 00:21:43,122
or his expectations of himself, they
changed something else, which was to

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00:21:43,142 --> 00:21:46,372
remove the privileges that they were
giving to him that he had not earned.

372
00:21:47,062 --> 00:21:50,662
So they gave him love support,
but also they gave him plenty

373
00:21:50,662 --> 00:21:55,657
of time for him to make his own
decisions while also influencing

374
00:21:55,657 --> 00:21:58,747
his decision making through removing
privileges when it was appropriate.

375
00:21:59,917 --> 00:22:03,185
This setup, this like three tiered
phase of increasing positivity,

376
00:22:03,185 --> 00:22:07,268
decreasing negativity, and then granting
privileges when they're earned, this

377
00:22:07,268 --> 00:22:11,759
was way more helpful than begging,
pleading, trying to convince him,

378
00:22:11,759 --> 00:22:14,617
hounding him, pressuring him, and so on.

379
00:22:14,617 --> 00:22:20,227
Once they removed the friction
of themselves from his shutdown,

380
00:22:20,827 --> 00:22:25,137
he got the space, he got the
incentive, and the support to decide

381
00:22:25,147 --> 00:22:27,212
on his own to change his life.

382
00:22:29,171 --> 00:22:32,251
Thanks so much for joining
me on Stuck Not Broken.

383
00:22:32,611 --> 00:22:35,461
I hope this episode has helped
you to think differently about

384
00:22:35,461 --> 00:22:39,141
the people in shutdown in your own
life and how you could possibly,

385
00:22:39,771 --> 00:22:41,231
potentially connect with them.

386
00:22:41,891 --> 00:22:45,531
I hope you understand them better and
also have more compassion for them.

387
00:22:46,411 --> 00:22:49,131
Before you attempt to do anything
differently though, it may help you

388
00:22:49,131 --> 00:22:52,571
to reflect on whatever feelings you
have about doing something different.

389
00:22:53,566 --> 00:22:57,466
When the thought of giving them
more space is in your head,

390
00:22:58,216 --> 00:22:58,966
how do you feel about that?

391
00:22:58,966 --> 00:23:03,681
If you typically pressure someone who's in
shutdown how do you feel about backing up?

392
00:23:03,851 --> 00:23:07,311
How do you feel about providing more
love and support and understanding?

393
00:23:07,311 --> 00:23:10,691
When I describe the different ways
that shutdown can present itself

394
00:23:10,691 --> 00:23:15,191
in others, did you notice any
judgments in your mind about those

395
00:23:15,211 --> 00:23:16,621
ways that it can present itself?

396
00:23:17,721 --> 00:23:21,001
How do those judgments carry
into your relationships with

397
00:23:21,001 --> 00:23:23,261
the people you know in shutdown?

398
00:23:23,261 --> 00:23:26,421
I know you care about the shutdown
person in your life and I know you're

399
00:23:26,421 --> 00:23:28,231
trying to learn everything that you can.

400
00:23:28,231 --> 00:23:31,351
So great job on this leg of your journey,
and I hope you keep it going and I

401
00:23:31,351 --> 00:23:32,831
hope you reflect on yourself as well.

402
00:23:32,831 --> 00:23:35,801
If you want to deepen your understanding
of shutdown, I have the perfect

403
00:23:35,871 --> 00:23:40,501
playlist for you I conducted a
survey about a year ago called

404
00:23:40,501 --> 00:23:42,611
the Shutdown Experiences Survey.

405
00:23:42,861 --> 00:23:47,291
I got 75 responses from real
people in shutdown sharing

406
00:23:47,291 --> 00:23:49,501
their real shutdown experiences.

407
00:23:49,936 --> 00:23:53,706
From this playlist that I'll share with
the link in the description, you'll

408
00:23:53,706 --> 00:23:57,736
get a deep, compassionate understanding
of what it's like to live in shutdown.

409
00:23:57,736 --> 00:23:58,676
Thank you again for listening.

410
00:23:59,046 --> 00:23:59,246
Bye.

411
00:23:59,519 --> 00:24:02,959
This podcast is not therapy,
not intended to be therapy or

412
00:24:02,959 --> 00:24:04,559
be a replacement for therapy.

413
00:24:05,359 --> 00:24:08,739
Nothing in this creates or indicates
a therapeutic relationship.

414
00:24:09,579 --> 00:24:13,029
Please consult with your therapist or
seek for one in your area if you are

415
00:24:13,029 --> 00:24:14,939
experiencing mental health symptoms.

416
00:24:15,769 --> 00:24:18,619
Nothing in this podcast should
be construed to be specific life

417
00:24:18,619 --> 00:24:22,139
advice, it is for educational
and entertainment purposes only.