Andrea Rappaport (00:00)

If you've ever opened an email from your attorney, read it three times, and still had no idea what the hell they just said, then this episode of How Not to Suck at Divorce is for you, lover.

There are so many phrases that gets thrown a client's way that means absolutely nothing to somebody who doesn't practice law. And we, the people, are left wondering, am I winning? Am I losing? Am I being f—?

threatened what's happening.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (01:49)

Totally, and half the time lawyers forget that clients don't speak lawyer speak. It's like when you go to the doctor and they just launch into all these phrases, you're like, are you talking about my leg or is that an arm phrase? I don't know what you're talking about. So that's what we're talking about today and let's fix it. Let's shed some light on some of these phrases that you might be hearing from your lawyer and a little bonus, we're going to give you some insider tips to know whether your attorney is communicating effectively or not.

what to do if they're a really crappy communicator. ⁓ Andrea wanted me to say shitty communicator and I didn't write that part and I didn't want to say it.

Andrea Rappaport (02:27)

But some people are shitty communicators. I just have to say it. And you mentioned doctors before. And that's kind of where I thought of this when I was working on this outline. You can have a doctor, you probably all have had a doctor who's a total genius, but their bedside manner sucks. You don't want to talk to them. You feel uncomfortable talking to them. You don't know what the hell they're saying. I have had that happen. Where like I've had a surgeon, surgeons are the worst. I mean, they're all just weird.

But I mean, Morgan, you just had a doctor situation with someone in your family, and you're trying to get information from them. And you're like, I don't really know all the words that you're saying, but also the way you're saying these words aren't landing for me. So just like doctors, some attorneys are not the best at communicating, Morgan aside, because Morgan is perfection.

but not all attorneys are Morgan and they can't communicate that well with their clients.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (03:24)

I know, and some attorneys are just kind of odd in that way. I've met my fair share of opposing counsels who I would never share a dirty martini with. That is the reality. And what I would say to you, if your attorney is that person and we're going to get into some of the communication kind of types, I would say that you might want to think about another attorney if you aren't communicating well at some point with your lawyer, because there are lots of attorneys with good personalities out there that have good bedside manners.

but also can convey what is going on in your case where you feel comfortable. Because if you continue to have these discussions with your lawyer and every conversation is like, what the hell is he or she saying, then that's a bigger issue.

Andrea Rappaport (04:06)

Who are the attorneys that you would like never want to hang out with?

Morgan L. Stogsdill (04:09)

Nice try baiting me. I'm not jumping into that one today. Your mom.

Andrea Rappaport (04:13)

Like who? Give me one.

Me kids!

Morgan L. Stogsdill (04:17)

you

Andrea Rappaport (04:19)

What is it, 1993?

Morgan L. Stogsdill (04:21)

Remember, we talked about that episode where we just responded, your mom. That's all I had to say to you. So if you're going to bait me, you're going to get your mom comments.

Andrea Rappaport (04:30)

I'm gonna get those names out of you. guys this is why you need to join the private community I'm gonna post a list of all of the divorce attorneys that Morgan can't stand and would never hang out with

Morgan L. Stogsdill (04:41)

here's why I'm not going to go there. I've got three reasons for you of why sometimes lawyers speak and lawyers speak. Number one, lawyers speak in legal shorthand. They just do because they spend all day talking to other lawyers or their paralegals or their teams that also speak the same language. So instead of saying, for instance, let's wait to see what the documents we get are before we decide what to do next steps, they say,

Let's reserve that issue until discovery is complete. Again, lawyers speak. Number two, why do lawyers do that? They're trained by nature to be cautious. They want to avoid absolute statements because they can't always guarantee what's going to happen next. You might hear things from your lawyer like possibly, likely, potentially, I love this one, realistically.

They can sound at times when they're talking about your case, like they don't know anything, but it's actually good risk management because if they say it's black and you go to court and it turns out it's white, you're going to lose a lot of trust there. And until we as lawyers have crystal balls, we are unable to give you with a hundred percent certainty what is going to happen. Number three, divorce law again is rarely black and white. We know clients want certainty. We want certainty for you as well.

But all we can do is give you probabilities, possibilities, and risk so that we can analyze whether the decision is a good one or one maybe you don't want to make.

Andrea Rappaport (06:07)

And that is exactly why we as clients find it annoying because we're paying you to fix it. Right. And I think that just like when you go to a doctor, you don't want the doctor to be like, well, I mean, we could try this or maybe this will happen. Maybe we'll make you feel better. Maybe you won't. And we've all had like diagnoses like that. Right. We're like, well, we can try this medication and we'll see what happens. Like, no, no, no, no, I don't want to, I'm going to try it.

Tell me what's going to make it better. With divorce, it is so frustrating to hear, well, the probability is this. Let's just wait and see. It possibly could work. It likely will work. We so desperately want 100 % certainty.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (06:57)

That's the thing. I want you to know that divorce lawyers would love 100 % certainty. What we can usually give, or at least what I usually give, is more likely than not, this is the range of where it might fall in. It might be a 60 % winning range. And then you have to decide whether that's the route you want to go. All right, so I never thought I would say this, Andrea, but let's play a game.

Are you

ready?

Andrea Rappaport (07:22)

can't believe you want to play a game, but I'm gonna I'm game for your game

Morgan L. Stogsdill (07:25)

Okay, good. I'm going to give you a common phrase used by attorneys and then I want you to translate it into English. number one, that's not something we want to concede.

Andrea Rappaport (07:34)

Okay, so obviously in English that means that's not something that we want to give, but I'm thinking that what it really means is hold your cards right now. Like let's wait and see what they do before we just give everything away. Am I right?

Morgan L. Stogsdill (07:52)

Yes, to me it's not a no. It's not a no, it's just a no right now. All right, number two, we'll reserve that issue.

Andrea Rappaport (07:57)

Wilkworm.

Okay, so to me, well-reserved that issue sounds a little bit like, bless your heart. Like, I know Andrea that you really wanna press that issue that Chad keeps, you you think that Chad is prank calling you every Thursday at three o'clock, but we're really not gonna send that email to opposing counsel right now because that's just a big old waste of your money, right? Like it kind of feels like a little bit like the,

attorney is telling you, no Felicia, we're not going to do that.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (08:31)

Yeah, it could be that or it could come from the judge. A lot of times judges reserve issues and it could just be annoying because you're like, just make a ball or strike, call it ball or strike right then and there. And reserving is just kind of kicking the can down the road at times, which is sometimes really frustrating. So if that's where you're...

Andrea Rappaport (08:48)

When would a judge

do that? Like when? Give me an example.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (08:51)

It could be somebody goes into court to ask for support, financial support. And they may say, hey, right now it seems like everything's kind of status quo. We'll reserve the issue and we can address it in the next few months if you want. Those are things that are really, really frustrating. OK, another one. When attorneys say, the judge may not view this favorably.

Andrea Rappaport (09:14)

my God, that to me sounds like you're stupid. Like whatever you're about to do, Brenda, do not, because the judge is not going to like the fact that you are calling Chad in the middle of the night, singing songs from Broadway musicals, but changing all the words. I really did this once. Okay, so there was this person I didn't like, and I would call him in the middle of the night and I would sing Oklahoma.

like, you know, la homo, but I said oak la homo instead.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (09:48)

my god.

Andrea Rappaport (09:49)

Not one of my prouder moments. Actually, I still stand by that bit. I found it hysterical. And yes, I was 16. ⁓ But I would sing Oklahoma and I thought it was hilarious. But I would imagine that would be a situation that the judge may not view favorably.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (10:04)

Yeah, and if it was in today's day and age, you'd probably be canceled and also maybe in jail. I don't know.

Andrea Rappaport (10:09)

It's a musical. I mean, come on. I think that Rodgers and Hammerstein needs to be like off. You can't be canceled for singing Oklahoma. The show was written for that joke. Moving on.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (10:22)

All right, Opposing counsel is being unreasonable. I want you to read between the lines of this.

Andrea Rappaport (10:27)

Okay, well, opposing counsel to me, that means not the client. That means that the attorney, right? That the other attorney is being unreasonable. God, okay, so to me, that almost feels like ⁓ my attorney is venting with me in a way. They're one of those people who we won't mention, who Morgan will never have cocktails with.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (10:34)

correct.

Andrea Rappaport (10:53)

I mean, I don't know. don't know. Is there more to that?

Morgan L. Stogsdill (10:56)

Yeah, I think that you're dead on there because most really high-end good lawyers are not going to talk poorly about other lawyers to clients for sure. I mean, it's kind of bad business. It just doesn't land. And that's just not the practice we want to have, or at least I want to have. But there are times where opposing counsel is being ridiculous, taking ridiculous positions. Maybe they're amping their own client up.

There are lawyers, there's lawyers that I practice against that I know the moment they're coming on a case, it's going to be World War III because they are a mess. The lawyer, not the client. So that's exactly it. Read between the lines. Opposing counsel is being unreasonable. It could be a million things that they're doing, but your lawyer's not probably coming out of the box and telling you what they're doing.

Andrea Rappaport (11:41)

I mean, you just said you started that off by saying that it's kind of bad business and it's kind of tacky to sum it up, to speak poorly about another attorney. But I also think that your client is paying you. And so if they're going to get frustrated with you, if they feel like the ball's not moving down the court, so attorneys sometimes have to communicate, hey, it ain't on me. Like, this is being stalled because Joe Schmoe isn't

You know, whatever. so let me ask you, Morgan, do you, would you say something like that? Would you say opposing counsel is being unreasonable or what? Two questions. Number one, what would you say? And then what is the client supposed to do with that information?

Morgan L. Stogsdill (12:25)

So I think the client first of all needs to read between the lines and maybe ask a follow up question. I would say, opposing counsel is being unreasonable, their position is unreasonable, and the client could say back to me, can you explain that a little more? What would be reasonable? And I might say, this is the position they're taking, this is what I think a court would do and why their position is unreasonable. And I don't know why they're taking this position, but it might be kind of amping up your X. And so then they're in this like loop.

where it's causing more attorney's fees, taking ridiculous positions, and we need to find a way out of it.

Andrea Rappaport (12:57)

Yeah, you would give your client more insight so that they can then have a realistic expectation for what the next few weeks can look like.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (13:07)

Yes, exactly. All right, last one. We need more discovery.

Andrea Rappaport (13:10)

I mean, to me, I'm reading, I mean, obviously, like, we're not stupid. We know what discovery means. So if I'm reading between the lines here, it means that you have not given enough evidence yet to support the claim that you're trying to make.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (13:23)

I totally agree with you. Or we have not received enough evidence to support the claim that either we're making or maybe we're disputing their claim.

Andrea Rappaport (13:24)

Is that right? I'm good.

Mm-hmm. Okay, so we need more of this.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (13:33)

And one thing I want to say before

we move on is a lot of times clients get really frustrated in the discovery process. They almost think like it's like a paper pushing on the lawyer's part. Like we just love collecting papers. And I want you to know that this is us doing our job. We have to have documents to back up what we're recommending to you. We have to have documents to back up a marital settlement agreement or a divorce decree. We can't just do it in a vacuum.

And we don't really love discovery ourselves, but it's necessary. That's what you hired us for. So if we're saying we need more of it or we need certain documents, that's why we need them.

Andrea Rappaport (14:12)

want to give you guys some green flags so that you know what are some, even though we know that we're not going to get a black and white answer, which we all want, I want to give you guys some green flags of what is, what's good. What's a good realistic expectation as to how your attorney should be communicating with you. So Morgan, give it to us.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (14:33)

All right, so a good divorce lawyer should be able to explain what is happening in your case, why it matters in your case, what the possible outcomes may be, risks and rewards, what options you have, and those options may change every day, every month, et cetera, because things are moving along, and finally, what they recommend. Clients should understand the strategy, the risks,

and the costs that come with it. And a good attorney should be able to explain what they're doing like they're talking to their neighbor. It shouldn't be that difficult.

Andrea Rappaport (15:10)

like they're talking to their neighbor. Meaning like in layman's terms.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (15:14)

Not only layman's terms, it's more of like a nice conversation. It's not talking down to you. It's talking to you as a peer, explaining what we know, but in terms that make sense, explaining the strategy in a way that you're not stressed out or backed against the wall. You're like, yeah, I expected this. This is what we're doing next.

Andrea Rappaport (15:35)

to tell you something really funny about neighbors and then I'm going to move on to the end. But since we didn't chit chat at the beginning of this episode, I got to insert this. So when I lived in the city, which for anyone who is now living that suburban life, but used to live like in the city, you'll get where this story is going. When you live in this city, you just have wacky neighbors because you're living in like a building with a lot of other people. You can't choose your neighbors. Some are great. Some are old. Some are short. Some are tall. I lived

in this one building where we had to park like in tandem. Did you ever have a building like that Morgan where you had like a person? Do remember that?

Morgan L. Stogsdill (16:13)

I remember it, I didn't have that, that's awful.

Andrea Rappaport (16:16)

It was so annoying. when we moved in, they were like, you guys just exchanged keys. Who the fuck is going to exchange keys with some rando neighbor you don't know? My rando's name was Rosa. And she was not funny. She had no sense of humor whatsoever. She didn't find me funny, which I mean, red flag, but she didn't find anyone funny. Everything was very serious to her. Well, one day I needed her to move her car so I could get out. And

she wrote, she meant to write, give me a sec, but instead she wrote, give me a sex. And then she tried to correct it, but her autocorrect kept changing sec to sex. So then she wrote sex again and then, sorry, sex.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (17:00)

How

many times has she written sex? Because you don't auto correct from sec to sex unless you've been writing it a lot. Rosa is a dirty, dirty woman.

Andrea Rappaport (17:08)

know, like what

was Rosa doing on the side? But I laughed so hard because you know that somebody with no sense of humor would not find the comedy in this. And she was probably so mad and sweating that she kept writing, sorry, give me a sex, sex, sorry, sex, Like it kept going. and years later, true story, I ran into her.

years later post divorce, which is really funny because she had met my ex-husband prior to when we got married. And when I ran into her recently at a restaurant, I was like, my God, I don't know if you remember me, da, da, da. She's like, yeah, I do. And I felt the need to say, I'm divorced now. And she was like, okay, yeah. And I'm like, all right, this was good, bye Rosa. Anyway.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (17:54)

She's like, good for you, sex.

Andrea Rappaport (18:02)

Going back to your neighbor, one of the things that you said is that it shouldn't feel condescending. And that leads me right into some red flags that you should be aware of. This is how your attorney should not be communicating with you.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (18:17)

All right, I'm going to take it away. So if you're leaving consistently the conversations with your lawyer more confused, we don't want you to feel smaller or Andrea says dumber after talking to your lawyer. You should feel better about where you are in your case overall. Number two, you ask, but they refuse to explain things. They just say things like, just trust me. That in my mind is completely unacceptable. Number three.

they will not explain strategy. You as a client deserve to understand what is the game plan. And remember the game plan moves consistently in these divorce cases. And you want to understand as well why certain moves are happening. Number four, they dismiss your questions. A good lawyer welcomes clarification questions. And the reason is because if you are on board with what's going on, you're going to be a better client for them as well.

And number five, they rely on intimidation. This was more of an old school thing. I feel like when I first got into the practice and the business, they make you feel kind of like you're asking questions and that is so stupid. Most people don't do that now, but I still, there's still the old guard out there that still may do that. So if you're feeling stupid or they're making you feel stupid asking the question, that is a big problem.

Andrea Rappaport (19:29)

you're just stupid. There is a chance. I just have to say there is a chance. And so if you are stupid, that's okay too. Look, it takes all kinds. Give me a sex. Regardless of whether you're stupid or not, if you're not understanding your attorney, there are some things that you can say. Number one, do you think I'm stupid? No. And that's when we lost all of our listeners. ⁓ No, here we go.

what I want you to say if you're not understanding. Can you explain that to me in English? That's not sounding rude. That's not being patronizing. Just say it in layman's terms. Another thing you can say, what does that mean for my case specifically? Another option, if we do this, what's the best case and what's the worst case scenario?

What Morgan hinted at before is strategy. So if you're not clear on the strategy, you can say, what is the strategy behind that? The last thing that you can say is if your attorney is presenting you with a strategy and you're feeling a little bit like, ⁓ really? You could say this. Is this something that judges typically approve? Which can be a little bit passive aggressive because that's sort of implying that

You're not fully on board. And also, it's your right to not be 100 % on board with everything. If you don't get it, you don't get it.

And lastly, here's one that might piss some attorneys off, but that's my favorite part of the episode. How will this affect my legal fees? Don't be embarrassed to ask these questions. You have every right to ask.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (21:09)

so when it might be time for a second opinion, because you might be going there in your head, you might be saying to yourself, oh my gosh, this is exactly what I'm dealing with. I'm dealing with, I'm feeling small, not understanding what my lawyer is saying. And again, I don't want to make divorce lawyers out to be bad guys. Most of them, I will say, most of the good ones are fantastic communicators, fantastic at what they do, but there are the one-offs that are just, it's like bad bedside manners. So remember this.

A second opinion is not a betrayal. If you got a second opinion at the doctor, you are not betraying that first doctor. So why should you feel any different? Your lawyer is not going to know if you got a second opinion.

that make more sense? If you don't understand what's happening, you've asked and strategy hasn't been explained. Communication is really tough or minimal. You feel dismissed or your gut says something is off. Listen,

Good lawyers don't really have clients going to get second opinions, first of all, because they've got them where they need to be. They're really strategic. They have good communication. They've got a great team behind them. But good lawyers don't usually get second opinions. And if they do, they're not threatened by second opinions because you're likely not leaving if they're doing their job well.

Andrea Rappaport (22:20)

I want you all to know you're going through a process that's overwhelming enough. Yes, there are going to be times that even a good lawyer is going to say things that you're like, wait, what? There are times where I communicate with Morgan and she'll say something and I'm like, I don't know what that means. Okay, but as soon as I say that to Morgan, she'll say, got it. This is what it means because we don't do what the other one does. I own a marketing firm.

There are times actually today that Morgan and I were conversing about something regarding ads. I could say something and Morgan's like, I don't know what that means. You tell me. So unless you actually are stupid, don't let it make you feel stupid. Your lawyer should never make you feel stupid. And your lawyer, let me say it this way. It's your lawyer's job to help bridge the gap.

so that you feel like you're not only getting a divorce, but you're getting a divorce in another country in a foreign language. And that's why we wanted to do this episode

filling you in on some of the reasons why attorneys do speak the way they speak to you. It's not because they're trying.

to be difficult. It's because they're speaking to other attorneys all day long. They're living in this world of legalese. And sometimes for some people, it is a little tough to go back and forth. You deserve to understand what's happening, why it's happening, and what your options are. Because when you understand the process, you can make better decisions.

Morgan L. Stogsdill (23:50)

We do the show for you. We are here for you on your worst days. Not every day in the divorce is going to be a good day. We know that. And sometimes it's hour by hour, other times it's day by day. That's okay. If you need more community, hop on over to our private community or all of our socials. We respond to questions. If you don't have the DCC, go and get it. It is brand new and it is fantastic, if I might say so myself. And finally, please review us online. It allows us to continue doing this show and bringing on fabulous guests.

Remember, divorce is a marathon. It is not a sprint. And on your worst days, we know that you've got this.

Andrea Rappaport (24:25)

And we, my friends, have got you.