Foreign.

Welcome luminaries, and thanks so much for joining us again for another episode.

This time we're going to offer you some deeper perspectives on a subject that we took care of in our main episode, which is consultants and dress codes or clothing choices.

Now, first of all, I'm going to say that co host Mike is out of action with a throat problem.

That means his voice is completely gone.

So for luminaries this week you're mainly left with me.

But we have a lot to hear about from our colleagues Tish and Maffe about their experience with consulting and dress choices.

But let's just remember we where we got to in the main episode.

We've been talking about how dress choices have changed over the years as consulting culture has grown and evolved.

We talked a lot as well about how there's a zoom and teams and online conferencing set of appearance choices that might be different from the choices that we made back in the days when most of our interactions were face to face.

And it certainly seems like for consultants and consulting firms, how we look has a minor but an important part to play in how clients perceive us.

And that might need to be aligned with whether we present ourselves to the world as premium or high status.

It might give us an opportunity to use our dress and our appearance to help to reinforce long term relationships and build some trust.

It might certainly help us to seem like we're compatible with the culture and the expectations of our clients so that our advice goes over well and is listened to.

But that's asking a lot of one simple and relatively minor set of choices.

I want to dig a little bit deeper into what it means for us personally.

So to start with, I'd like to share with you some more of our conversation just the other day with our colleagues Tish Baldez and Mafe Escobar.

My name is Tish Valdez and I am one of the leaders and partners with P31 Consulting and P31 Academy.

I'm Mafe Skoar.

I'm part of the P31 Consulting team.

Very happy to be here, Mafe.

So good to have you here.

We're looking forward to hearing hearing from you about dressing for success as a consultant.

What's the strangest clothes choice you've ever seen a consultant make it work?

Oh, good question.

I don't remember anything that caught my attention.

I'm very open minded in that sense and I try not to judge.

I definitely know oh my God, she or he is not wearing what they're supposed to be wearing.

But Definitely.

I felt very weird one day that I lost my baggage.

And just the night before, we had to go to the client and I had to wear exactly the same clothes that I wore in the airplane.

That's the advice I would give myself.

So I had to go on tennis shoes, jeans, and a very simple T shirt to a client.

Thank God.

They were very, like, casual, business casual.

So they were like, I apologize.

Like, I went there and I apologized and I said, I'm so sorry.

I'm like this.

And they were like, what are you talking about?

But I definitely felt very weird wearing that.

And it hurt a little bit my confidence as well.

I love this question because I just saw it not too long ago.

I was actually facilitating a program of consultants.

All consultants in the room and the consulting leaders came to the training program every day because they were good leaders and they wanted to be involved in the process.

Everyone in the room, there were 24 people.

23 of the 24 dressed professionally every day.

One person was.

I would describe the person, and I won't say the gender, so we don't reveal who they are.

One person was very artistic.

That's the way I would describe it.

The dress was very artistic, very free.

I thought it was refreshing, but it just wasn't appropriate for consulting.

It was very.

I would have expected this person to see them in an art gallery, standing in front of art or with a camera in their hand.

They were just so free.

The hairstyle, the clothes, the shoes.

It was boots, right?

And I really thought I would have seen them, like in SoHo in New York, hanging out somewhere.

It just didn't look like consulting.

And I didn't have to make a comment.

The leaders noticed it, and the leaders had a conversation with them about it.

And it wasn't that they looked like they were going to a party.

It just didn't look like a consultant would dress.

One of the things that was important to these leaders was to make sure that the consultants could present themselves in front of clients.

And they were thinking that wasn't the representation they wanted for their organization.

What are some of the things that you think about when you're choosing what to wear for work?

That's really interesting.

I think about who's going to be in the room.

I think about who's likely to show up.

I think about what halls I'm going to be roaming, where I'm going to be.

Even if I'm roaming the halls of an airport, am I going to be sitting in first class or business class?

All of those things Impact, how I'll dress and how I'll show up.

Because I look at travel and I don't know who I'm going to bump into.

I don't know who I'm going to have a conversation with.

I don't know know what they do, what they're interested in, what our company might have that they may pay attention to.

And that's why I say it depends on the halls I'm roaming.

And I mean any halls, not just corporate halls.

You're thinking far ahead.

Yes.

Yeah.

But I want to be comfortable.

So I think as a woman, a female in business, I have so much to choose from.

It makes it hard sometimes.

And I once had a mentor.

Her name was Midge Wilker, and she was great about how she dressed.

She actually wore the same thing pretty much every day.

And we would work together for five days.

She always brought a comfortable pair of black pants that looked elegant every day, the same shoes, and she just changed her top every day.

But the tops were also interchangeable.

Right.

So that she could create different looks each day.

And I thought, how brilliant.

Because she always looked professional, she always looked amazing.

But she just had a wardrobe of probably five items that she just interchanged.

Most women don't do that.

We make it much more complicated than it needs to be.

So I think the first thing that I think about is I have a stage standard way of what business dressing is.

So I normally use that framework to choose what I am going to dress.

But I also try to understand how the client dressing code is, what's their culture, what they normally tend to wear.

And I normally try to be a little bit more formal than they are, just a little bit.

So I'm not like completely formal, but I'm also not underdressed.

Well, another thing is I try to use some colors, but try to be also very neutral.

Like once someone said to me, you want them to pay attention to what you're saying and to the conversation and not paying attention to your earrings or the way you're dressing.

So I just try to be like, nice and formal, but definitely trying to not put so much attention to what I'm wearing.

And then the other thing is, I have my personality, as everyone does, and I try to put a little bit of my personality as well, because I think it's almost a way of introducing yourself and showing yourself to the world.

So I tend to use a little bit of that as well.

Do you think navigating consulting dress codes is harder or easier for a woman compared to a man?

Great question.

And I would say, like a very good consultant, I would say it depends.

So I think in terms of what business dressing looks like for men, it's almost very standard.

So it's not difficult for men to go along the business dressing.

But one of the things is more difficult for you guys to put your own identity and personality and footprint.

For us, we have a lot of more options.

We have a lot more ways of just like blending what we like with the business dressing.

But I think it can be difficult as women because there's no like, complete, straightforward.

This is business dressing, this is not business dressing.

It depends also on who is deciding.

For some clients, for instance, overdressing can be very intimidating.

And they it could be something that you go into a room and you're overdressed and the client is not going to trust you because they would say this person is very expensive or they don't know our industry or anything like that.

If you're undressed, the same thing.

So for women, I think it's a little bit more difficult.

Okay.

How about you, Tish?

I think it's much easier because when I started my career, there were dress codes, and the dress codes were formal.

Women wore suits, men wore suits, and when I started, women had to wear skirts.

With the company that I worked for, I couldn't even wear a pantsuit.

Within a few years, that changed and then things relaxed.

But I think it's much easier now because so many companies have, I guess, dress down days.

They have business casual.

I think that's what they call most people call it business casual.

But I think when I go into organizations, it depends on who I'm looking at, what the definition of business casual is.

Have you noticed that the more senior people think they're very business casual, and I think they look very quite business.

But I think it's actually easier because the limitations of the skirt and the dark clothes has been lifted.

And as long as people look like they're not going out to a party or going to hang out with friends, they're probably dressed appropriately for work.

However, I think for women who are trying to get attention for promotion, still have to pay attention to how they show up and dress.

And they might not want to hear that.

And I might think, oh, listening to your podcast, I disagree with that.

I'm not talking about what's right.

I'm not talking about what's politically correct.

That's not what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about the realities of people make judgments by how you look when you show up if your hair is a mess, if your clothes are sloppy.

People make judgments.

I'm not saying they're fair.

I'm not saying they're appropriate.

I'm just saying people still make those judgments.

And so you have to be careful.

If you could go back in time and give yourself some dressing for the workplace advice, what would it be?

Well, it depends on how far I'd have to go back.

You know, I don't think I would go back.

I think I would talk to myself now.

And the reason is because as I matured in my career and more independent, I think I started relaxing how I dressed.

And in the beginning, I was very conscious.

Earlier in my career, I had a private shopper for me at Nordstrom.

Wow.

I did she shop for me twice a year.

I would go visit her twice a year.

I'd get there and the entire dressing room would be set up for me with about 20 outfits.

And I would just try on clothes and leave.

But that's because I was climbing my corporate career and I had always been taught it's important how you show up, how you look.

And then as I became independent, it was important how I dressed, but I didn't care quite to the same degree.

So I would say I went a peak in a valley and now I'm going to peak again.

So that's why I said it depends on when you ask me.

Right now I'm at a point in my career, I'm more mature in my career, and I'm realizing exactly how important it is how I show up.

Because who I'm showing up to speak to are the more senior people I'm talking to, CEOs and members of the C suite.

So it's even more important that I think about how do I show up.

I don't know who's going to be in the room.

And so I have to really pay attention to if I'm dressed appropriately, am I dressed for the occasion?

Am I dressed in a way that people will receive me and take me seriously?

I have two advices.

One of them was at the very beginning of my career.

I remember my first job in consulting the weekend before I joined consulting to buy clothes because I was in university.

I did had some formal clothes, but not that much or business clothes.

So I bought a lot of things that I saw people wearing in business, but then when I wore it, I felt very uncomfortable because it wasn't me.

So one of the things is definitely feel comfortable with what you're using.

Of course, go with the Business look but try to use a little bit of how you feel and how you are into that clothes.

I bought some suits that like didn't suit me and I didn't feel comfortable in those clothes.

So I think I wore them like twice only.

And then the second advice I would give, and we were talking about this with Tish, my colleague the other day, is that yes, we women when we travel we tend to take a lot of things because normally like we, we need like the day formal business outfit but sometimes we need like shoes for the evening.

I exercise every morning so I have to take my exercise clothes.

So sometimes it's not enough with a carry on and you need to check a bag.

But many times could count the times that we lost our bag or our bag was not there when we got there.

So I would say always bring something in your carry ons or your bag or your bag with you so in case you miss your luggage, you have something to wear that is decent for the client.

Mafe really appreciate that.

I think that's just great sage advice and thanks for being with us.

Thank you for having me.

Tish, that was great.

And as always it was exactly you.

Thanks so much for being here with us.

Thank you for having me.

Really great to hear from Mafit and Tish there.

We're really glad to have had them on the show.

Now we didn't expect to find very much in the way of conceptual thinking or research about the subject, but guess what?

We came across a paper from Harvard Business Review about a decade ago.

The main author is a lady called Sylvia Bellezza.

The paper tried to examine how people react to non conforming behaviors such as for example, walking into a luxury clothing boutique, wearing gym clothes or wearing red sneakers to a professional office setting.

And the idea of red sneakers in a professional setting kind of rang a bell with us.

So we decided to take a look at what this paper tells us.

Now if you take the view that wearing red sneakers or any other noticeable color of sneakers is a potentially non conforming choice in the consulting environment, then it's interesting to think about where that originated from and what the consequences might be.

Consequences that as it turned out, are not as straightforward as you might think.

First of all, choosing to wear red sneakers in a non red sneaker wearing environment does have a cost associated with it.

Not only might the sneakers themselves be pricier than a regular pair of workplace shoes, but the wearer's taking a chance that the signal of wearing these fancy shoes is going to be interpreted as a positive sign of status and competence, maybe in the eyes of others.

Now, the research covered in the paper seems to show that people do indeed confer higher status and competence on non conforming rather than conforming individuals.

And clothing choices are not a bad way of signaling this.

By the way, I used the phrase seems to there and that's exactly what it sounds like it is.

It's a caveat.

Listen out for a couple of potential validity challenges in a few minutes time when I'm done with this.

But for now let's just say the research seems to have stood up over time.

So let's continue.

According to Silvia Bellezza and her co researchers, these positive inferences that you get from wearing a non conforming sneaker choice or making any other kind of non conforming choice, these are derived from the idea that maybe people will perceive the wearer as particularly autonomous or particularly successful in expressing individualism, what you might call personal branding.

And that can have the positive connotation that people are generally looking for.

So far, so good for the red sneaker wearers, but there are limits.

The paper demonstrates that the positive inferences disappear when the person observing you with your sneakers on is unfamiliar with you and with the environment.

So you shouldn't expect a big credibility uptick from your sneaker investment when your sneakers and you are only going to be seen around the office by newbies or strangers.

And this implies in turn that wearing your red sneakers on the first day at the client's office might not make you look like the maverick you're trying to be.

This is because according to the paper, the non conforming behavior could be seen as unintentional.

And that's a conclusion that people might draw if they don't have the same norms or standards or culture.

So rather than thinking, hey, there goes a radical thinker, great sneakers, I wonder how I can get to know them better.

People might actually be thinking, there goes someone who got dressed in the dark this morning and I wonder if they realize they've got the wrong shoes on.

So it's not entirely a rosy picture for the red sneaker wearers.

And if you're interested in taking a look at the research and debating it a little, then there's a link to the Harvard Business School paper citation in the reference links for the show today.

By the way, let's just talk about those validity questions.

One of the co authors of Silvia Bellezza's paper is an academic by the name of Francesca Gino, and Gino was associated with some controversy around the validity and the accuracy of the data that she used in some of the behavioral research that drove some of her most famous papers.

And there's been a whole series of legal actions and lawsuits and counterclaims involving Gino and and Harvard and some of her co researchers.

However, having taken a look, this particular paper isn't on the list of the ones that have been raised as potential concerns as a result of Dr.

Gino's work, so we're going to let that stand.

But if you're interested in what has been a really intense and recently acrimonious debate about behavioral research, take a look at writings online about Professor Gino.

Take a look at the website datacollada for lots of discussion about how psychological and behavioral research is being challenged to be as rigorous as it can be about methodological standards.

Anyhow, we think the paper stands up and the conclusion for Red Sneakers Wearers is interesting.

There are choices to be made and consequences to be borne now, in our main episode and in the first half of the show today, we've been thinking about clothing choices and appearance choices as having to do with the impression that we make with clients and prospective clients.

And I think that's what most of us had in mind in the days of very traditional dress codes and very conservative dress codes in the consulting world.

But I think these days the focus in terms of appearance and dress also turns inwards towards how we welcome and integrate and bring on board people from all kinds of backgrounds with all kinds of awarenesses and choices that they want to make about their appearance in the office.

With new junior colleagues, there are some interesting conversations that we might need to have.

We might need to find a polite and respectful way to talk to junior consultants about their professional presence and talk about how wide the corridor should be of formality versus informality.

We need to create dress codes and give dressing advice to people in a way that's inclusive and respectful.

And we might need to handle diverse expectations amongst a diverse team about what's okay to wear at work and what their expectations should be.

Remember the conversation we heard from Tish about the junior person that she encountered at work not long ago?

So as leaders, you're going to have to be ready perhaps to have the polite, respectful but firm conversation with your juniors, if maybe their sneaker choices seem a bit out of place and you could go deeper as well.

You might also think about asking the same colleagues for feedback on your choices.

What impression are you making?

How do you make your colleagues feel when they're around you, especially on high visibility occasions?

And you could also ask if they've got any tips for a good shoe retailer.

So we hope you've enjoyed talking about consulting and dress code choices.

Hopefully, next time we'll both be back in full vocal health.

So meanwhile, thanks once again for being with us and we'll see you next time on the Luminaries.